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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Welcome to The Houndation's podcast. I'm your host

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Speaker 1: Tony Peterson, and today's episode is all about pack behavior

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Speaker 1: and why we should try to understand it so we

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Speaker 1: can understand our dogs better. The thing about animal behavior,

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Speaker 1: and I include human behavior in this broad sweeping statement,

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Speaker 1: is that a lot of it is easier to understand

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Speaker 1: if you look at the evolutionary history of whatever species

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Speaker 1: you're thinking about. You know, of course, in this case,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about dogs, and the behavior I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about kind of all relates to them being pack

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Speaker 1: animals or what we believe about pack animals. So there's

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Speaker 1: a lot to unpack here, get it. So I'm going

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Speaker 1: to get started right freaking now. One of the things

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Speaker 1: I love about going to the gym, besides finding any

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Speaker 1: and every reason I can to remind people that I

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Speaker 1: like to go to the gym, is that when you

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Speaker 1: work from home and spend most of your day trying

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Speaker 1: to create stuff out of your dumb head, it's nice

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Speaker 1: to go where people are not too many people though,

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Speaker 1: because man, does the general public not do a whole

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Speaker 1: lot for this guy. But the gym is different, especially

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Speaker 1: if you go a lot at the same time. Every day.

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Speaker 1: I see people there every time I go, and some

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Speaker 1: of them have become my friends. Now that might sound pathetic,

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Speaker 1: but again, I spend my days with two black labs

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Speaker 1: in myself, and sometimes it's just nice to see a

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Speaker 1: few friendly faces. One of those friendly faces is a

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Speaker 1: giant dude from Georgia who owns a doggy daycare with

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Speaker 1: his wife. The two topics we talk about are typically

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Speaker 1: girls basketball since he has three daughters who are really

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Speaker 1: good at hoops, and dogs for obvious reasons. Now, the

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Speaker 1: other morning, he was in the steam room chatting it

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Speaker 1: up with another gym goer when I walked in there

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Speaker 1: to sweat for fifteen minutes after my workout. He was

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Speaker 1: explaining to the other fellow about how cool it is

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Speaker 1: that some of them dogs that come to their boarding

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Speaker 1: facility have best friends. Certain dogs will wait for certain dogs,

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Speaker 1: and when they get together, they play all day long

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Speaker 1: without interacting a whole lot with other dogs. Now, we

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Speaker 1: have the tendency to look at that like it's human

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Speaker 1: behavior and also honestly freaking adorable, because it is. But

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Speaker 1: why would two dogs click and then stick together when

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Speaker 1: they have dozens of friend options to choose from? Is

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Speaker 1: there a form of canine chemistry where two dogs are

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Speaker 1: kind of just on the same wavelength. Maybe maybe it's

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Speaker 1: nothing more than two dogs with the same level of

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Speaker 1: energy and enthusiasm, and so it's natural for them to

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Speaker 1: play together since they are just kind of humming at

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Speaker 1: the same frequency. Or maybe it's something a little bit

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Speaker 1: more complex than that, and it is tied to the

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Speaker 1: fact that domestic dogs are still pack animals and that

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Speaker 1: hierarchy can exist with certain mutual, beneficial partnerships throughout the

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Speaker 1: layers of dominance, like being best friends. I guess when

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Speaker 1: we think of pas animals, we naturally think of wolves.

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Speaker 1: Why not. There is nothing more iconic on the landscape

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Speaker 1: than a wolf pack, although these days they don't get

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Speaker 1: a warm welcome in a lot of places for a

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Speaker 1: lot of very very good reasons. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: get into that other than to say when federal judges

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Speaker 1: out in DC manage APEX predator populations and states they

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Speaker 1: probably only visit to ski once a winter. It's not

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Speaker 1: a great example of wildlife management and conservation. Any huski.

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Speaker 1: The dominant thought about wolves that there is an alpha

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Speaker 1: and that dude doesn't take shit from anyone. He's the

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Speaker 1: tony soprano of the pack, and he rules with an

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Speaker 1: iron paw. This is what we thought for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and we thought aggression and violence were the primary tools

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Speaker 1: the alpha used to keep his top spot. But that

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Speaker 1: belief is kind of dying on the vine these days,

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Speaker 1: in no small part due to the work done by

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Speaker 1: certain biologists. The idea that the alp is the biggest,

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Speaker 1: toughest wolf in the pack and that he takes what

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Speaker 1: he wants because he can just isn't really that true. Now.

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Speaker 1: Through countless hours of observation, biologists have learned that during

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Speaker 1: lean times, the alpha will actually let the young eat first.

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Speaker 1: Now this makes sense, particularly if there is a high

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Speaker 1: likelihood that those wolf pups are carrying his genes, but

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Speaker 1: they've also realized that the alpha will often hang at

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Speaker 1: the back of the pack when they're traveling to a

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Speaker 1: new place instead of being out front as the leader.

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Speaker 1: According to quite a bit of research, dominant wolves don't

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Speaker 1: push submission wolves out of prime sleeping spots, and they

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Speaker 1: rarely pin down wolves to make their point, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of them. The biologists now have come to believe

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Speaker 1: that wolves almost exist in family units instead of packs,

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Speaker 1: with the leaders functioning more as guides than rulers. Now

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Speaker 1: does this have anything to do with dogs? It does,

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Speaker 1: There's plenty actually, but also kind of not. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to get into that. But for a long time, and

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Speaker 1: certainly still today, there were lines of thinking out there

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Speaker 1: in the training world that rely heavily on beliefs about

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Speaker 1: pack animals. The idea that your small monster lander or

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Speaker 1: your chessi is always jockeying for a position in your family,

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Speaker 1: which is their pack, is very common. But is that true?

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Speaker 1: Kind of? It would be hard to tease out the

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Speaker 1: motivations of a seven month old dog, but we can

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Speaker 1: fill in some of the blanks. For starters, they are

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Speaker 1: usually shitheads who listen very little. This is a sign

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Speaker 1: of disobedience and often gets connected to the beliefs that

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Speaker 1: the dog is trying to figure out where it is

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Speaker 1: in the pack, and furthermore, trying to earn a higher

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Speaker 1: spot in the pack. Is that right? Who knows? It's

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Speaker 1: also true that they are the equivalent of teenagers then,

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Speaker 1: and their motivations are pretty selfish despite being in a

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Speaker 1: life situation where they are expected to obey and behave correct.

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Speaker 1: A few training ideas that go along with this line

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Speaker 1: of thinking include eating before the dog eats, walking through

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Speaker 1: doors before the dog, and pinning dogs to the floor

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Speaker 1: to establish dominance when they get on your last nerve. Now,

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Speaker 1: the fur baby side of the dog equation predictably thinks

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Speaker 1: that none of those things are necessary, while the old

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Speaker 1: guard training side probably believes that all of them are necessary.

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Speaker 1: The truth is, we kind of don't know why dogs

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Speaker 1: do what they do. They might very well disobey you

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Speaker 1: in an attempt to jockey into a better position in

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Speaker 1: the pack, or they might do it because they are

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Speaker 1: always testing us to see what they can get away with,

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Speaker 1: because we make up a whole bunch of rules for

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Speaker 1: them that they generally don't want to follow. Do you

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Speaker 1: know why I'm so wishy washy on attributing behaviors to

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Speaker 1: one reason or another, partially because dogs aren't wolves. They

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Speaker 1: are domestic dogs. So we are taking behavior, in fact,

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Speaker 1: some behavior that has mostly been debunked these days, from

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Speaker 1: wild canaans that do live in packs, and applying that

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Speaker 1: to the behavior of domestic dogs, which really don't live

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Speaker 1: in packs. We don't do this with African wild dogs

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Speaker 1: or orcas or cheetahs or lions or bottlenosed dolphins or

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Speaker 1: hyenas or Harris hawks or chimpanzees or Humboldt squids, and

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Speaker 1: a whole host of other animals that live in hunt

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Speaker 1: in packs. We are comfortable with a domestic dog wolf

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Speaker 1: connection because it's relatively linear in our minds. But your

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Speaker 1: English cocker is pretty far removed from a gray wolf

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Speaker 1: living out on the tundra looking to eat a caribou

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Speaker 1: for breakfast. That said, does it really matter the reasoning

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Speaker 1: behind our training methods if they work again? Kind of

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Speaker 1: whatever you believe about dogs in their pack behavior, it's

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Speaker 1: nice to have a dog that is submissive to you.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you don't want one that would bite your

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Speaker 1: throat if it thought you were going to take away

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Speaker 1: a three day old pizza crust it scrounged up from

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Speaker 1: the ditch during your walk. A dog that is a

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Speaker 1: great if to anyone in any way as a dog

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Speaker 1: that isn't going to be much fun to own. But

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Speaker 1: what about that seven month old puppy or hell, a

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Speaker 1: nine week old puppy. One of the things that Tom

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Speaker 1: Dowkan likes folks to do with their puppies is to

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Speaker 1: have everyone in the family pick up the dog and

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Speaker 1: cradle it in their arms. Now this goes for dad, mom,

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Speaker 1: the kids, and really anyone who's going to have some

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Speaker 1: level of interaction with the pupp and who might be

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Speaker 1: in charge of that dog at some point in its life. Now,

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Speaker 1: imagine holding your arms out and carrying a load of

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Speaker 1: firewood in them, except the wood is your dog with

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Speaker 1: its paws straight up towards your face. The idea is

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Speaker 1: that the puppy is going to struggle against that hold,

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Speaker 1: which it absolutely will. The holder is instructed to put

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Speaker 1: mild pressure on the puppy with their arms until the

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Speaker 1: puppy relents and goes limp and just kind of relaxes. Now,

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Speaker 1: I've done this with my last two dogs, and it's

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Speaker 1: pretty incredible how quickly they learn they are in charge

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Speaker 1: of that pressure. Which is Tom's whole point. Well, scratch

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Speaker 1: that part of his point. He wants the dog to

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Speaker 1: know who is in charge in a very subtle, non

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Speaker 1: threatening way. But he's also doing that to determine the

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Speaker 1: level of attitude he is going to deal with on

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Speaker 1: that particular pup because that will inform a lot of

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Speaker 1: his training choices. So in a way, that's sort of

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Speaker 1: a dominance pack thing, But it's not like grabbing a

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Speaker 1: dog by the throat and pinning it down. There is

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Speaker 1: a lesson for the dog in that and for the

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Speaker 1: trainer in that move. There's also the reality that some

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Speaker 1: dogs are more dominant than others, but what we attribute

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Speaker 1: to them as dominant behavior might not always be. So

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Speaker 1: that's a broad excuse for some behaviors. But when it

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Speaker 1: comes to bad dog behavior, a lot of it is

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Speaker 1: because we did something wrong. Take a dog that just

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Speaker 1: flat out refuses to do something it doesn't want to do. Now,

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Speaker 1: this might be a dog that really enjoys laying on

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Speaker 1: the couch even though you want him on the floor.

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Speaker 1: Or it might be a dog that just chooses to

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Speaker 1: disobey one of your commands with you know, like the

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Speaker 1: recall command is one that is a likely candidate here. Now,

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Speaker 1: you might think, my freaking dog won't get off the

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Speaker 1: couch when I tell him to because he's just too dominant.

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Speaker 1: But do you ever let the dog on the couch?

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Speaker 1: How about your wife or your kids? What's the level

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Speaker 1: of leniency here? Is it consistent? Is it inconsistent? What's

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Speaker 1: going on? Almost all dog behavior that's bad can be

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Speaker 1: attributed to some inconsistency from us, like sort of child

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Speaker 1: behavior too, I guess if I'm being honest, But what

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Speaker 1: about the dog that doesn't listen to you when you

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Speaker 1: give it a command. I had a fellow tell me

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Speaker 1: the other day that his four month old dog wasn't

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Speaker 1: listening a whole lot, so he wanted a recommendation for

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Speaker 1: a shot caller, so, in his words, he could zap

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Speaker 1: him into shape. What I wanted to say was, why

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Speaker 1: don't you take that shot collar, turn it up to ten,

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Speaker 1: strap it to your nutsack, and then hand me the

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Speaker 1: remote until you learn something about dogs and their ability

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Speaker 1: to learn when they are the equivalent of kindergarteners. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: a dog that won't listen to commands is a dog

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Speaker 1: that probably just hasn't been trained very well. Now, while

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Speaker 1: it might make us comfortable to say that that dog

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Speaker 1: is untrainable because it's such a dominant beast, the truth

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Speaker 1: is that there are a hell of a lot of

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Speaker 1: headstrong dogs out there that would blow your mind if

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Speaker 1: you got to watch them work or hunt. Again, the

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Speaker 1: dominance thing comes into play, But is it a blanket

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Speaker 1: excuse for the bad behavior we don't want to see,

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Speaker 1: or a part of a much, much bigger issue that

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Speaker 1: we as trainers might not be helping if we are

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Speaker 1: inconsistent with our asks. There are other behaviors, you know,

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Speaker 1: like pulling on the leash while you walk, mounting other

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Speaker 1: dogs or people or furniture or stuffed animals, or taking

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Speaker 1: a leak in the house, guarding food dishes or bones

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Speaker 1: or treats, those things that get blamed on pack animal tendencies.

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Speaker 1: But again, there's a whole lot of training to be

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Speaker 1: had in each one of these issues, and at least

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Speaker 1: some of them might be tied to just like a

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Speaker 1: lack of socialization. Now there's another thing we bring to

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Speaker 1: the table here that kind of ties into the dude

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Speaker 1: who wanted to light his puppy up with an e collar,

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Speaker 1: which is that if we see dog behavior through the

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Speaker 1: lens of packs and dominance, we will lean into the

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Speaker 1: kinds of corrections that those beliefs kind of warrant. So

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Speaker 1: in a way, it can be a self fulfilling prophecy.

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Speaker 1: If we decide a dog won't do something or specifically

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Speaker 1: chooses to do something because it's fighting for dominance, our

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Speaker 1: response is often to go alpha on them and get

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Speaker 1: pretty harsh in the correction territory. While that might feel

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Speaker 1: justified to some folks, it's undoubtedly going to stress most

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Speaker 1: dogs out. It's going to open the door for anxiety,

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Speaker 1: potential aggression, and a list of physiological responses that can

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Speaker 1: manifest themselves in worse behaviors later. Does that mean harsh

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Speaker 1: corrections are never needed? Usually not, And a better way

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Speaker 1: to look at it is to see if there is

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Speaker 1: a way to get the desired behavior through positive reinforcement

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Speaker 1: and clear rules. The latter one goes right back to

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Speaker 1: inconsistency and training. If the rules aren't very clear about

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Speaker 1: expected behavior, then any deviation might be viewed as a

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Speaker 1: middle finger to your methods. But it's just the dog

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Speaker 1: trying to find a lane when the fog is real thick.

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Speaker 1: Clear rules matter a lot. Positive reinforcement does too, because

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Speaker 1: you want a dog that wants to work for you,

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Speaker 1: not a dog that does it out of fear. Think

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Speaker 1: about it this way. Throughout history, we've tried all kinds

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Speaker 1: of systems of government, all kinds of tribal distributions of power,

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Speaker 1: and we have often defaulted to ruling by force. Every

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Speaker 1: one of those societies eventually crumbled under its own weight,

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Speaker 1: because eventually the reward for being obedient doesn't outweigh the

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Speaker 1: punishment of being ruled. This is probably why alpha wolves,

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Speaker 1: you know, don't rule generally through tons of aggression, because

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Speaker 1: most animals seem to intuitively understand what a one on

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Speaker 1: one fight means for them, just as they understand what

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Speaker 1: a one on more than one fight means for them. Strengthen,

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Speaker 1: numbers will always eventually beat the strength of one. A

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Speaker 1: better way to get things done, you know, the things

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Speaker 1: like staying safe and well fed, is to work together

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Speaker 1: for a goal. This serves the group and as a byproduct,

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Speaker 1: serves the individual. So if I have a dog that

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Speaker 1: is supposed to be a good retriever but they are

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Speaker 1: struggling to always deliver the bumper to my hand, I

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Speaker 1: can punish that dog or figure out a new way

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Speaker 1: to reward the dog. It's kind of that simple. Sometimes.

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Speaker 1: Think about it this way. Would you rather have a

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Speaker 1: boss who says, hey, tackle this huge project and you'll

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Speaker 1: be in serious consideration for a promotion and a raise,

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Speaker 1: or one that says, hey tackle this project or you're

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Speaker 1: going to get your ass fired. Both ends are powerful motivators,

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Speaker 1: but one is just a better move. So is all

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Speaker 1: this evidence that the pack thing really doesn't matter? Nope,

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Speaker 1: because it is coded in their genes. You see this

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Speaker 1: pretty quickly a lot of times when you have more

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Speaker 1: than one dog. Now this doesn't always happen, but if

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Speaker 1: they are at least sort of close in age, dogs

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Speaker 1: seem to sort out who gets the best spot on

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Speaker 1: the floor and who doesn't. There is a hierarchy at

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Speaker 1: play with them, and without doubt, with them and our families.

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Speaker 1: They view themselves as part of our family, and we

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Speaker 1: certainly view them as part of ours. Does that mean

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Speaker 1: we are all a pack? Kind of? I guess it's

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Speaker 1: a great thing to ponder anyway, just for the hell

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Speaker 1: of it, and does have implications for their responses to

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Speaker 1: our asks and behaviors. But it's also not a blanket

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Speaker 1: excuse for bad dog behavior or behaviors that we just

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Speaker 1: can't seem to get a handle on for one reason

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Speaker 1: or another. I'll never forget the first time I went

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Speaker 1: to a shrink, I told him that I thought I

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Speaker 1: had a certain mental condition, which would have been a

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Speaker 1: great excuse to explain some of my behaviors and the

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Speaker 1: amount of jim Beam that I was drinking at the time.

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Speaker 1: He responded to me by saying, it's pretty dangerous to

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Speaker 1: self diagnose something like that because it'll give you an

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Speaker 1: excuse to keep doing what you want to because it's

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Speaker 1: not your fault, although you should be moving away from

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Speaker 1: those behaviors and figuring it out the right way now.

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Speaker 1: Getting called out on your bullshit sucks, but it often

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Speaker 1: is a good springboard for growth. It's also poignant when

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Speaker 1: it comes to our relationship with dogs, because as soon

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Speaker 1: as we feel like we can definitively label the reasons

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Speaker 1: behind their behaviors, we might have an opportunity to not

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Speaker 1: address them or address them in the short term in

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Speaker 1: a negative way that might do nothing to help our

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Speaker 1: dogs become the dogs we actually want them to be.

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Speaker 1: So let me wrap this up by saying that our

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Speaker 1: dogs are pack animals sort of, and that matters to

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Speaker 1: their training and development sort of. It's okay to acknowledge

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Speaker 1: and learn about and might feed into small parts of training,

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Speaker 1: especially when it comes to general behaviors around the house

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Speaker 1: and in everyday settings. But once we use it as

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Speaker 1: a way to brush away their shortfalls in our training regimen,

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Speaker 1: we've kind of lost the plot. Look at something to

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Speaker 1: be aware of, or at the very least kind of

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Speaker 1: think about. So do think about that and think about

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Speaker 1: coming back in two weeks, because I'm going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the dumb ways people injure their puppies or at

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Speaker 1: least create situations where an injury could happen. That's it.

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Speaker 1: I'm Tony Peterson. This has been the Foundation's podcast. As always,

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening and for all of

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Speaker 1: your support here at meat Eater, We truly appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: If you guys want more dog content, maybe you want

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Speaker 1: some turkey hunting content, maybe just want some good storytelling,

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Speaker 1: head over to the meadeater dot com. We're dropping new

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Speaker 1: films all the time. You can see Clay Hunt and

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Speaker 1: spring Bears with his son. You can see Brent Reeves

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Speaker 1: doing his thing out there, or listen to Brent on

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Speaker 1: This Country Life. Tons of good content, articles, podcast videos,

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Speaker 1: you know, the whole drill at the medeater dot com.

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Speaker 1: Check it out, and once again, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for your support