1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: It was May fifth, nineteen eighty five. James Daly was 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: out bar hopping with his roommates Jack Pearcy and Gail Bailey, 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: as well as their friend Oza Shaw, when the four 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: of them ran into a fourteen year old Shelley Bogio. 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 1: At some point, all of them went back to the 6 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: house that James, Jack and Gail shared, and James Daly 7 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: went to bed while Gail, Jack's pregnant girlfriend was using 8 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: the bathroom. Jack snuck out with Shelley Bogio, dropping Oza 9 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: Shaw at a payphone on the way. In the early 10 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: hours of the morning. Jack Pearcey returned alone, at which 11 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: point he woke James Daly and dragged him out for 12 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: a few more beers. When they returned, James's pants were wet. 13 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: The following day, Shelley Bogio's body was found choked, stabbed, 14 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: and drowned in the Florida Intracoastal Waterway. Jack Pearcy admitted 15 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: to his involvement of the crime, but implicated James Daly 16 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: as the primary culprit the prosecution and turned promised leniency 17 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: to jailhouse informants who could help them send James Daily 18 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 1: to where he's been since nineteen eighty seven, Florida's infamous 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: death row. Jack Pearcy has since claimed sole responsibility for 20 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: Shelly Boggio's death, but has so far avoided actually affirming 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: that claim in a court of law. We're going to 22 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: speak with James's attorney, Josh Dubin, a man whose name 23 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: you've heard on this podcast from me many times and 24 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: also from the mouths of several of the people that 25 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: he's helped free, and he'll tell us about the evidence 26 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: that he's uncovered that the state of Florida refuses to hear, 27 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: even though it clears James Daly's name with or without 28 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: the word of the one and only killer, Jack Pearcy. 29 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flammer. Welcome back to 30 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flammer. On today's episode, we're going 31 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: to tell the terrifying tale of James Daly, a man 32 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: who was wrongfully convicted decades ago in Florida and sentenced 33 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: to death. And with us to tell that story is 34 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: his attorney, Josh Dubin. And for listeners of the show, 35 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: you'll recognize Josh's name because I reference him often. Josh 36 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: is not only a pro bono council of great repute 37 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: for the Innocence Project, he is a jury selection expert 38 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 1: and has been an integral part of many cases that 39 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: you've heard on this show, including just a few names, 40 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: John Restevo, Clemente, A Gire Herman Atkins, and he is 41 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: a sort of a force of nature. So, without further Ado, 42 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: let me introduce my friend and a personal hero of mine, 43 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: Josh duben Well. 44 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 2: That made me blush. I appreciate it. 45 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: So when you're old and gray and sitting in your 46 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,399 Speaker 1: rocking chair and someone asks you what case troubles you 47 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: the most, I know that this is one case that 48 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: will come to mind. Is that fair statement? 49 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 2: I mean I feel like it's making me old and 50 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,119 Speaker 2: gray and putting me in a rocking chair already, especially 51 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 2: coming off this latest decision by the court. It's just, yeah, 52 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: it's doing a number on me. But it's really not 53 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 2: about me. It's about the victim of Shelley Bogio, her 54 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 2: family's fight for justice and closure, and a clearly innocent 55 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 2: man that's been sitting on death row for more than 56 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 2: three decades for a crime that his co defendant has 57 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 2: admitted he committed on his own. So yeah, it's it's 58 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: troubling to say the least. 59 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: Let's go back to nineteen eighty five, fourteen year old 60 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: Shelley Bogio was found choked, stabbed over thirty times, and 61 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: finally not even dead yet, was drowned in Florida's intracoastal Waterway. Josh, 62 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: can you take us back to the circumstances of this 63 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: case and explain how James Daly came to be a suspect. 64 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was roommates with a person that committed the crime, 65 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 2: a gentleman by the name of Jack Pearcy. And God, 66 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 2: I say, gentlemen, I want to shove those words back 67 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 2: in my mouth. I mean Jack Pearcy was a guy 68 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 2: that had a very very violent criminal past. He had 69 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 2: been implicated in a murder for higher scheme where he 70 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: flipped on his co defendants and got himself immunity. He 71 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: had been arrested for terroristic threats against the mother of 72 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: his child. He had been in and out of jail, 73 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: and James Daily didn't know this about him. James Daly 74 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 2: had done a tour in Korea, two tours in Vietnam. 75 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: His criminal record was all of one arrest for like 76 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 2: a one punch bar fight, and he met Jack Pearcy, 77 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 2: I think playing pool at a bar. You know, he 78 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: didn't really know too much about Jack, but they were 79 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 2: hanging out in Kansas. James Daly, he's having a hard 80 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 2: time after getting back from Vietnam, just getting along and adjusting, 81 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 2: and you know, his wife had sort of had it 82 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 2: with him and kicks him out, so he was sort 83 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 2: of down on his luck where to go. Didn't really 84 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 2: know too much about Jack Pearcy, but they ended up 85 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 2: living together in Florida with Jack Pearcy's girlfriend, Gail Bailey, 86 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: who was pregnant with Jack Pearcy's child. And then May fifth, 87 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five, there's a group of them, Gail Bailey, 88 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: Jack Pearcy, of course, James Daly, and a man by 89 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 2: the name of Oza Shaw. Osa Shaw was a friend 90 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 2: of Jack Piercy's from Kansas. He was down there staying 91 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: with them, and they are, you know, going from a 92 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: bar to a bar, and they see Shelley Bogio and 93 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 2: her sister, and Jack Pearcy knows them. He had been 94 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 2: to their house before and bought drugs from their father, 95 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 2: and he had hung out with Shelley Bogio before. He had, 96 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: in fact been told by Shelley Bogio's father, look, you're 97 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 2: too old to be hanging out with my young daughters, 98 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: and especially Shelley. They end up going to some bars, 99 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 2: and there's really no dispute about the fact that Shelley 100 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 2: bo Jack Pearcy, Gail Bailey, James, Dally Osa Shaw are 101 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 2: back at the home where Gail, James and Jack live. 102 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: What happens afterwards had been the subject of sort of 103 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: great debate. Who was with Shelley Bogio alone during the 104 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 2: time frame that the state established at both the trial 105 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 2: of Jack Pearcy and James Daly she was murdered. They 106 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 2: said it was between one thirty and three thirty am. 107 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: That's never really been challenged, all right, that is the 108 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 2: window of the time of death. At some point Jack 109 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 2: Pearcy leaves that house with Shelley Bogio. In the past, 110 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 2: Jack has tried to push back the time frame of 111 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: when this happened because he knows what the state's been 112 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 2: able to establish in terms of when Shelley Bogio died, 113 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 2: So he claims I left with Shelley Bogio around eleven thirty. 114 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 2: I then came back to get James Daly and the 115 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: three of us went out together, which makes absolutely no sense. 116 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 2: He was with this girl that he obviously want to 117 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 2: have sex with. He was flirting with her by all accounts. 118 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 2: Gail Bailey has even admitted that he had been flirting 119 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 2: with her earlier in the night that he danced with her. 120 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 2: Gail Bailey got pissed off, so it makes no sense 121 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: that he would want to go back and get James 122 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: Dally get another man involved. But he claims that he 123 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 2: went back to the house and got James Daly and 124 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: it's during that time that they went to a bar 125 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 2: and that James Daly, Jack Pearcy, and Shelly Bozio drive 126 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: to an area close to the bar, and before he 127 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: knows what's going on, James Daly pounces on top of 128 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 2: Shelley Bogio when she rebuffs his advances and just starts 129 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: stabbing her like a madman. 130 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: So let me get this straight. Jack Piercy tells the 131 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: police a story placing James Daily with he and Shelley 132 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: Bojio between one thirty and three thirty in the morning, 133 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: the timeframe of her death. But what prompted him to 134 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: implicate his friend. Was it just the simplest way to 135 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: shift the blame from himself? 136 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 2: Well, we don't have to speculate, because I asked him 137 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: that I went to visit Jack Pearcy back in December 138 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: and January and March. He confessed to me that he 139 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 2: did this alone. He doesn't know me. I just walk 140 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: into the prison off the street. I tell him I'm 141 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: from the Innocence Project. There's a death warrant sign for 142 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 2: James Daily. Are you going to do the right thing? 143 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 2: That was literally almost the extent of my conversation, and 144 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 2: I remember counting to seven hundred and sixty one, just 145 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 2: sitting there and getting comfortable in the silence and just 146 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: letting him think. He you know, got a kind of 147 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 2: emotional and he said, do you have an affidavit? And I, 148 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: you know, handed him one sheet of paper that basically 149 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 2: said I did this alone. James Daly had nothing to 150 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: do with it. And he signed it and he said, 151 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 2: just make sure my family's not there. So it was 152 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 2: clear to me that he had not only done this. 153 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 2: I knew that he had done it. He knew that 154 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: he had done it, and he just didn't want to 155 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 2: admit to it in front of his family, and I said, 156 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 2: why did you even implicate James Daily in the first place? 157 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: And he looked at me kind of like, do you 158 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 2: really need to ask me that question, kind of smirk 159 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 2: on his face, and he said, well, who admits to 160 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 2: committing a murder on their own? He said, I was 161 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 2: trying to get the attention off of me. And look, 162 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 2: he had done this before. He had accepted money to 163 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: murder someone stake the person out, and he got caught. 164 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: He never actually went through with the murderer because there 165 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 2: was too much sort of heat on him, but he 166 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 2: ended up flipping on his co defendant and getting himself 167 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: out of that crime. He had done this before and 168 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: he figured, I'm going to do it again, and he 169 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 2: told me that. So we don't have to speculate there this. 170 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: Let's call him what he is, a scumbag. Piercy kept 171 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: slipping through the cracks, and he should, by anybody's definition, 172 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: have been in prison. And had that been the case, 173 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 1: Shelley Bojio would still be alive and your client would 174 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: not be in prison for this crime because it never 175 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: would have happened. And that's a tragedy on top of 176 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 1: a tragedy. So, Josh, we know this story that Jack 177 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: Piercy made up, but what about the real story of 178 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: what happened that awful night. 179 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 2: You know, they say that the truth always catches up 180 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: to the lie, especially when someone is talking. Jack Pearcy 181 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 2: has talked over the years. He has confessed to this crime. 182 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 2: He has signed Affidavid's declarations. And what ends up happening 183 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: is he ends up getting pressure applied on him by 184 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 2: his family and he ends up having to go to 185 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: court to affirm the affidavit or the declaration, and he 186 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 2: gets cold feet, as family says to him, you know, 187 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: you should not be admitting to this. You're going to 188 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 2: break our hearts. We've been telling people you're innocent, and 189 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: now we can't do that anymore. Your son will never 190 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: come visit you again, and so forth. And when he 191 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: goes to court, he then just takes the fifth So 192 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: here's what really happened, And now Jack Piercy has admitted it, 193 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 2: although he didn't realize he was admitting it. And I'll 194 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: explain that in a minute. What really happened is that 195 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 2: they go back to the house. Gail Bailly, his pregnant girlfriend, 196 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 2: is in the bathroom. Ajames Daly is in his room. 197 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 2: Osa Shaw is on the couch and Jack Pearcy uses 198 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 2: this as an opportunity to leave with Shelley Bogio. Jack 199 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 2: Pearcy says, Shelley, let's get out of here. Osa Shaw says, 200 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 2: I want to go with you. I have to make 201 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: a phone call. And remember we're in the mid eighties, 202 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: so they took him to a payphone. Osa Shaw has 203 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 2: been consistent that he leaves the house with Jack Pearcy, 204 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 2: Shelley Bogio. It's just the three of them. James Daly 205 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: and Gail Bailey are back at the house, all right, 206 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 2: There is no dispute about that. Jack Pearcy drives Osa 207 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 2: Shaw with Shelley Bogio to a payphone. Osa Shaw is 208 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: calling his wife and a girlfriend of his and he's 209 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 2: on the phone for ten to fifteen minutes, and Shelley 210 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: Bogio and Jack Pearcy get impatient and they start honking 211 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 2: the horn. Osa Shaw finally says, go ahead and take 212 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 2: off because the payphone is a short walk away from 213 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 2: where the house is. So Shelley Bogio and Jack Piercy 214 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 2: leave and they're alone now up until March of this year. 215 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 2: Jack Piercy has always maintained that, yes, that happened, but 216 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 2: it was at about eleven thirty at night, because he 217 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 2: knows what the time of death is, he knows what 218 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 2: that window is, so he always pushes this event back 219 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 2: to earlier in the evening. He claims that he went 220 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: back to the house and got James Daily. There's a 221 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 2: lot of problems with that. Osa Shaw has always been 222 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 2: consistent to the following. At some point in the evening, 223 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 2: Jack Pearcy comes back to the house and he does 224 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: not have Shelly Bogio with him anymore, goes into James 225 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 2: Daly's bedroom, wakes James Daily up, and the two of 226 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 2: them leave together. And this is critical, right because when 227 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 2: was this? When in time was this? And you know, 228 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 2: we get to the next part of the story, which 229 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 2: is Jack Pearcy's unwitting admission and the latest turn in 230 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 2: this case. And he gives me that time. 231 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, but he's done this to you time and again, 232 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: an admission which he then won't fess up to in 233 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: open court. How many times has he played this game 234 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: with you? 235 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 2: So Jack Piercy, back in nineteen ninety three, back in 236 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: two thousand and seventeen, and then as recently as late 237 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 2: last year has admitted in sworn statements that he committed 238 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 2: the crime alone, that James Daly had nothing to do 239 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 2: with it, and then he always wiggles out of it. 240 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 2: So after he gives me the affidavit, I have to 241 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: file it in court, and the papers in Tampa back 242 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 2: in December and January pick it up. Piercy has confessed again. 243 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 2: But I have phone calls between his mother and him 244 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: after the papers pick up that he's confessed now to me. 245 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 2: His mother starts telling him, how could you do this 246 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 2: to us? We've always maintained that you were innocent. Now 247 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 2: we can never say that again. Your son will never 248 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 2: come visit you again. And he comes up with this 249 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 2: crazy story to his mother on the phone and he says, 250 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 2: you know, I just did this because they're digging around 251 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 2: these lawyers for James daily and they'll be able to 252 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: do something that will benefit me one day. How in 253 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 2: the world could something that we are doing as James 254 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 2: Daly's lawyers to show that Jack Piercy committed the crime 255 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 2: alone somehow help Jack Pearcy one day. I mean, it's 256 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 2: just the opposite, but putting that aside for a minute. 257 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: I then go see him in I believe February or 258 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 2: March of this year, because the court has set a hearing. 259 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: I asked to go and take his deposition, and he 260 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 2: tells me, I've changed my mind. I'm no longer going 261 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 2: to say I did this alone. You know, I guess 262 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: not out of the realm of possibility that he would 263 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 2: try to wiggle out again. So I am there deposing him. Okay, 264 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: with me, There's a prosecutor from the state of Florida 265 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: sitting there, and it's myself and an attorney from Millbank 266 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 2: who is working on the case with me, Scott Edelman, 267 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 2: and I'm asking him questions, all within the context of 268 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 2: him now recanting and saying James Daily committed the crime. 269 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 2: I was just there and I say to him, when 270 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 2: was it that you were with Shelley Bogio alone? He 271 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 2: says all about eleven thirty at night, because remember he 272 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 2: knows the time frame. So I said to him, well, 273 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: was it before or after you dropped Oza Shaw off 274 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 2: of that phone booth? He says, without a doubt, I 275 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 2: went with Shelley Bogio alone to have drinks after I 276 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: dropped Oza Shaw at the phone booth. The following is 277 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 2: not known to Jack Pearcy. I have phone records from 278 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 2: that phone booth call. I have the people that he 279 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 2: called their phone records showing that the calls happened at 280 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 2: one point fifteen in the morning, and that the wife 281 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 2: and the girlfriend claim, as Osa Shaw does, that the 282 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: calls took forty five minutes and hour. So now we're 283 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: at two point fifteen in the morning, that it takes 284 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 2: fifteen minutes to walk back to the house, that Oza 285 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 2: Shaw gets back to the house, and Jack Pearcy isn't 286 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 2: back yet, that he sits on the couch for forty 287 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 2: five minutes an hour with Gail Bailly, and Gail Bailey 288 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 2: is distraught that Jack Pearcy left with Shelley Boggio. Hours 289 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 2: pass by Oza Shaw's estimation. It's now three point thirty 290 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 2: three forty five in the morning. That is when Jack 291 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: Pearcy gets back alone. That is the truth catching up 292 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 2: to the lie. That is the very first time Jack 293 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 2: Pearcy had ever under oath put himself square in the 294 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: timeframe that this murder is committed between one thirty and 295 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: three point thirty alone with the victim. And this should 296 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 2: have been earth shattering to the courts. It's certainly was 297 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 2: earth shattering to me. And as you know, I'm speaking 298 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 2: these words, just two days ago, you know, got an 299 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 2: order from the court denying my motion to have a 300 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 2: cumulative hearing of all of the overwhelming evidence of James 301 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 2: Dally's innocence because they now claim that the deposition that 302 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 2: I took was a quote discovery deposition and it's not admissible, 303 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 2: and it is just you know, if I had any 304 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 2: tears left in me, I would cry them. You know, 305 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 2: it's just beyond frustrating. Doesn't do it justice. I mean, 306 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 2: the fact that Jack Piercy has been able to wiggle 307 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 2: out of these confessions and that the criminal justice system 308 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 2: in Florida just continues to look the other way and 309 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 2: allow it to happen because of these ridiculous legal technicalities. 310 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 2: I don't even think that the judge respectfully was right 311 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 2: about it is just mind mending. 312 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: So Jack Pearcy finally gave an admission that he couldn't 313 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: wiggle out of. However, the court then won't allow it 314 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: to be admitted as evidence, which is just fucking insane. 315 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: And of course doesn't make any of it less true. 316 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: But I still have a few questions about the night 317 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: of the crime. What happened when Piercy came back to 318 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: the house to get James Daly out of bed, and 319 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: how did his pants get wet? 320 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 2: So it can be no earlier than three p forty 321 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: five in the morning, and Jack Pearcy gets home and 322 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: he's by himself, and Oza Shaw is rock solid about this. 323 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 2: He has never wavered on this in all the years 324 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 2: he's given testimony. In this case. Jack Pearcy goes into 325 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: James Daly's room, wakes him up, and then they leave together. Now, look, 326 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 2: I don't know whether that was because Jack Pearcy was 327 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 2: freaked out, he was looking for an alibi. Who knows 328 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 2: why he did what he did next. 329 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: He probably didn't want to face the wrath of his 330 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: girlfriend who he had just treated so horribly, right, I mean, 331 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: he left her pregnant in the house while he went 332 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: out to try to have sex with this underage girl. 333 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: I can tell you that he told me that he 334 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 2: was freaked out and then he just wanted to talk 335 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 2: and have some beers. He takes James Daly to a 336 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 2: different location than the murder occurred. They have beers and 337 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 2: smoke a joint and he says, look, I need you 338 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 2: to move out. We need your room because the baby 339 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 2: is coming soon. Remember Gail Bailey is pregnant. And what 340 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 2: James Daly has said, and what Jack Piercy in fact 341 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 2: told me, is they pop the trunk on the car 342 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 2: to sit on the back bumper, and that there's a 343 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 2: frisbee in the back seat and they're parked on the waterway, 344 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 2: and that James daily whips it up in the air. 345 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 2: That was like his thing. He would always like fling 346 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 2: the frisbee up in the air and try to boomerang 347 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 2: it back to himself. And that at some point it 348 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 2: went into like the shallow water, and that James Dilly 349 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: waited out there and got it, so he had wet 350 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 2: pants when they both got back. Oza Shaw and Gail 351 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 2: Bailey see them come home and Piercy is dry and 352 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: James Daly has wet pants, and the police say, aha, 353 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 2: he must have been the one that murdered Shelley Bogio. 354 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 2: And look, Jack Pearcy has told me that what happened 355 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 2: with the frisbee happened, And you know, to any of 356 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 2: the listeners that are thinking, well that sounds odd, Well, 357 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 2: you know what it might. But I can tell you 358 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 2: that in every single case that I have worked on 359 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 2: where somebody is innocent, they always live with what can 360 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 2: be an inconvenient fact. And I'm going to leave you 361 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 2: with this thought. When Jack Pearcy implicates him, James Daly 362 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: is living under his own name. He has moved to 363 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: California at this point, it's six months later. He started 364 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: a kitchen cabinet company with a friend and the police 365 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 2: ask him six months later, we heard from Oza Shaw 366 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 2: and Gail Bailey that you had wet pants that night. 367 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: You know, he can quickly compute, well, Gail Bailey is 368 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 2: the mother of Jack Pearcy's child. At this point, Osa 369 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 2: Shaw is an old friend of Jack Piercy's. They're both 370 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 2: going to cover for Jack Pearcy. He could have quickly 371 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 2: said bullshit, my pants were dry, But he lives with 372 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 2: the inconvenient fact because he's innocent, and he says, yeah, 373 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 2: they were wet then, and here's what happened. That is 374 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 2: a hallmark of innocence, a hallmark of innocence. He lives 375 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 2: with that because he thinks that the police are just 376 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 2: going to believe him and actually investigate this. 377 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: Right, It's not like they could have gone back in 378 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: time and found some wet stain on something. It would 379 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: have been the easiest thing for him to say that, 380 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. That being said, Piercy goes to trial. 381 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: It sounds like he didn't have a snowballs chance and hell, 382 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: and sure enough he's convicted. 383 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 2: And the state seeks the death penalty against Jack Pearcy 384 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 2: and they don't get it. 385 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: He gets life understanding and correct me if I'm wrong, 386 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 1: is that there's a line between the fact that the 387 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: state failed to get the death penalty that they sought 388 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: against Piercy, so they wanted to execute somebody for this 389 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: awful crime, and that led them to do a number 390 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: of terrible, terrible things. 391 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 2: What happens next is the prosecutor send police in to 392 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 2: the Penelas County Jail where James Daly is being held 393 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: pre trial to start building a better case against James Daily. 394 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 2: And they don't have anything to go on with James Daily. 395 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 2: Accept these wet pants, and it is Operation Frame James Daily. 396 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 2: And if you want more about exactly what happened, we 397 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 2: could never cover in this timeframe. Pamela Colov wrote an 398 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 2: amazing investigative piece about jailhouse snitches, in particularly the one 399 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 2: in this case, in pro publica in the New York Times. 400 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 2: But they start pulling people off the pod where James 401 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 2: Daily was housed had been housed, and what they start 402 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 2: hearing from inmates is over and over again, he tells 403 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 2: us he had nothing to do with this, He's innocent. 404 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 2: And then the detectives let it be known to inmates 405 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 2: that if you have information leading to the conviction of 406 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 2: James Daily, if you can help us with the case, 407 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 2: there's a deal to be had for you. And at 408 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 2: first they get no takers. They start pulling some of 409 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 2: the same inmates off the pod, and now they have 410 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 2: newspaper articles about the crime sitting in front of them, 411 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 2: and one of these inmates has said in pam Colloff's story, look, 412 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: I could have easily made something up by reading the 413 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 2: newspaper articles that they put in front of me. But 414 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 2: they get no takers. They ultimately sort of are giving 415 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: up hope getting a snitch against James Daily, and then 416 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,479 Speaker 2: enter Paul Skealnick. And Paul Skealnick was housed at that 417 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 2: jail and he was someone that was known to Penelas 418 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 2: County police officers. He was known to that prosecutor's office. 419 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 2: He had cooperated in forty some odd cases. And they 420 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 2: knew he was a liar. They knew that he had 421 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 2: no way of knowing the things that he knew, and 422 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 2: they knew that he was a liar in this case 423 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 2: from the outset. Because what happens is Paul Skolnick had 424 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 2: already tried to get himself a deal in connection with 425 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 2: Jack Pearsy's case. He goes to investigators and he says, 426 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 2: I have information about Jack Pearcy, and they said, uh, 427 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 2: he's already been convicted. We don't need information about Jack Pearcy. 428 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 2: So then he takes another try and he says, well, 429 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 2: now I have information about James Daily. They should have 430 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 2: said to him, come on, buddy enough, but shockingly they 431 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 2: listened to him. And the tale he tells them has 432 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 2: already been found by the Florida Supreme Court to be impossible. 433 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: They have, in commenting on appeals that James Daly has made, 434 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 2: said the layout of the jail makes his story nuts. 435 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 2: It doesn't make any sense. Now, remember, he's a known 436 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: snitch in this jail. Paul Skalnick is radioactive. No one's 437 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 2: going near him. He's cooperated in countless cases. Everybody knows 438 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 2: he's in a single cell. So Skalmich tells this crazy 439 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 2: story at James Dally's trial that James Dally is mosing 440 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 2: past the cell, stops, turns to him for some unknown 441 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 2: reason and says, she wouldn't shut up, and I killed her. 442 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: So we cannot overstate the disgusting practice of using lying, 443 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: incentivized jailhouse snitches who basically condemned their victims to death 444 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: in exchange for extremely lenient treatment. And Skalnik is one 445 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: of the most grotesque examples of this. And what I 446 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: mean by that is in nineteen eighty two, he was 447 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: charged with sexually assaulting a child. The case was strong, 448 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: and the victim, this brave little girl, was prepared to testify, 449 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: but officials never prosecuted him for the crime. Instead, he 450 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: pleaded no contest to a separate and far less serious 451 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: charge of grand theft. 452 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 2: There is incontrovertible evidence that the prosecutors knew that Paul 453 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 2: Skolnick lied on the witness stand about his past charges 454 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 2: of sexual assault against minors, and they did nothing about it, 455 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 2: they didn't correct it. And you know, Paul Skealnick lies 456 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 2: to the jury and says that he wasn't promised any deal. 457 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 2: He ends up walking out of jail five days after 458 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 2: James Daly is sentenced to death. 459 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: The State of Florida where And I'll never forget you 460 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: saying this to me as we've spoken one of our many, 461 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: many conversations about this case, Josh, five or six months ago, 462 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: you said to me, you know, my client, James Daly, 463 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: is either going to be the one hundredth person executed 464 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: by the State of Florida or the thirtieth exonerated from 465 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: death row. And that gives me the chills because what 466 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: that says to us is that the State of Florida, 467 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: even if everyone who they've executed before was guilty, and 468 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: we know that that is not the case because Jesse 469 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: to Pharaoh, and the list goes on, but they're not 470 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 1: even batting seven hundred and yet they continue to let 471 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: the machinery of death wind its way, grind its way through, 472 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: and daily is in their sights. Has been for a 473 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: long time, but now so more than ever, which makes 474 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: this even more urgent that you're here. 475 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 2: This case has gained so much attention, and hopefully through 476 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 2: this podcast that gains more because it is just the 477 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:54,719 Speaker 2: perfect unfortunate storm of injustice. James Daly has been sitting 478 00:27:54,760 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 2: there in this narrow, dank cell for thirty plus us years, 479 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 2: suffocating in the eventuality that the State of Florida is 480 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 2: going to take his life for something he did not do. 481 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 2: And you know, if the courts are not going to 482 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 2: give him the justice that he deserves and give the 483 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 2: Boggio family the proper closure they deserve by making sure 484 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 2: that we don't compound a tragedy by taking another innocent life, 485 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,239 Speaker 2: I have to keep fighting. You know, the state of 486 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 2: Florida has an opportunity to be a catch all, a 487 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 2: fail safe. Governor Ronda Santis can make clemency in Florida matter. 488 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 2: Pam call Off said it best. There is a problem 489 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 2: with the death penalty in Florida. It is no small 490 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 2: wonder and it is not some coincidence that Florida has 491 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 2: more death rogues honerations than any other state in the country. 492 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 2: And there is a clemency process in Florida that does 493 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 2: not really apply to death penalty prisoners unless they're willing 494 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 2: to go and show some sort of contrition, and James 495 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 2: Daly is not going to show contrition for something he 496 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 2: didn't do. So there's a lot to fight for these days, 497 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 2: and the James Daily case is one of them. We're 498 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 2: seeing right now the power of united voices. Unity, brings change, pressure, 499 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 2: breaks pipes. To stand by idly in the face of 500 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 2: injustice is not an option anymore. That applies to cases 501 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 2: of innocence, police brutality against people of color in this country. 502 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 2: We have to stand up to it all. 503 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure people are listening saying I want to do 504 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: something about this James Daily situation. It's awful. Is there 505 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: something that people can do in. 506 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 2: Terms of the James Daily case. We need as many 507 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 2: listeners as we can to sign the petition to the 508 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 2: Governor's office that this cannot stand. That if the courts 509 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 2: do not give James Daily justice, that we need there 510 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 2: to be a real clemency hearing where I can present 511 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 2: all of the stunning evidence James Daly's innocence. 512 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: Please everyone, scroll down into this episode's description, click the link, 513 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: sign the petition and help bring James Daly home. There 514 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: really is a when it all cost mentality among prosecutors. 515 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: It's at the heart of a lot of the problems 516 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: plaguing our criminal legal system, you know, resorting to the 517 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: use of jailhouse snitches who are totally unreliable and notoriously 518 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: incentivized and wrongly incentivized. It's just one of the many, 519 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: many symptoms of a systemic disease at the root of 520 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: so many wrongful conviction cases. Now, Josh, if you could 521 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: focus on one particular way in which wrongful convictions are obtained, 522 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: what's the first thing that comes to mind. 523 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 2: The first thing that comes to mind to me is 524 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 2: reverse engineering, working from a place of wanting to get 525 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 2: a desired result, having an idea, a hunch, of feeling, 526 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 2: a notion that someone did something, and then using pseudoscience 527 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 2: or some justification for it. And that's what we see 528 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 2: in so many of these cases. The almost every single 529 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 2: case that I have worked on that involves an innocent 530 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 2: man or woman involves some form of junk science. 531 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: You know. 532 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 2: Look, the gold standard for forensic science in this country 533 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 2: is the National Academy of Sciences, and there was a 534 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 2: bombshell report in two thousand and nine where the National 535 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 2: Academy of Science has found that many of these so 536 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 2: called forensic disciplines that are used in cases all over 537 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 2: the country going backwards thirty forty fifty years, and still 538 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 2: to this date, this is in two thousand and nine, 539 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 2: found that they weren't science at all, called out bitemark evidence, 540 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 2: is saying there's no scientific basis for it whatsoever, And 541 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 2: still to this day, courts all over the country except 542 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 2: bitemark evidence. They were critical blood spatter, evidence, of footwear impressions. 543 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 2: Arson Are these disciplines objective, reliable? Can they be repeated? 544 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 2: Can they be confirmed? And because of this phenomenon called 545 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 2: legal precedent, where judges just say, well it was accepted before, 546 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 2: I'll keep on accepting it, they keep on admitting it 547 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 2: all over the country, and innocent men and women are 548 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 2: having their lives destroyed because so called experts get on 549 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 2: a witness stand and say, well, I can match these 550 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 2: teeth marks to this individual, on these bite marks on 551 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 2: that victim, and to a degree of scientific certainty that 552 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 2: individual did the biting. They were the perpetrator. In Clementia 553 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 2: Giri's case, there was blood all over the crime scene. 554 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,479 Speaker 2: It was no small wonder that the blood came from 555 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 2: the two victims. The reason that they were collecting the 556 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 2: blood of the crime scene was to try to determine 557 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 2: who the perpetrator was. And that's not because I say so. 558 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: The crime scene investigators in that very case admitted that 559 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 2: the reason that they were collecting the blood was to 560 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,719 Speaker 2: figure out who the perpetrator was. They never tested a 561 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 2: single drop of blood. 562 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:09,959 Speaker 1: We had to test it. 563 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 2: They were analyzing footwear impressions, and Clementee Geary had admitted 564 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 2: that he happened upon the bodies and walked through the 565 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 2: crime scene. There was no small wonder that his shoes 566 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 2: made some impressions. There were impressions that were never looked at. 567 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 2: That's a case of just ignoring the the forensic evidence. 568 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: But you know, in so many cases, the conviction comes 569 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 2: down to the jury buying a so called expert that 570 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 2: says only the defendant's teeth could have left that mark 571 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 2: on the victim, when in fact you find out that 572 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 2: the mark on the victim wasn't even a bite mark 573 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 2: at all, or that the blood spatter came from this direction. 574 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 2: And an expert reconstructs the crime in a way that 575 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 2: sounds so convincing to the jury, and they use acronyms 576 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 2: and fancy words, and you find out that this so 577 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 2: called expert doesn't even have a high school education and 578 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 2: took a forty hour course from a man that gave 579 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 2: birth to the discipline of blood spatter in a basement 580 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 2: in Corning, New York that he called the Forensic Institute 581 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 2: of Science. If we really peel back the curtain and 582 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 2: people really see what's going on, what I think is 583 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 2: going to happen is I think you are going to 584 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 2: be just horrified that courts admit this stuff. People rely 585 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 2: on it, and it's not juror's faults. It sounds super convincing. 586 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 2: But what I would like is for there to be 587 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,280 Speaker 2: a greater awareness about what this is, how to spot 588 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 2: it if you're a juror, and how to scrutinize it 589 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 2: so that we are not convicting innocent people for crimes 590 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: they didn't commit. 591 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: I emphatically agree with you, Josh. That's why I'm particularly 592 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 1: proud and actually humbled to announce that we are going 593 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: to be presenting a brand new series, Wrawful Conviction Junk Science, 594 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: and the host will be none other than Josh Dubin, 595 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: the man you've been listening to today, And I'm so 596 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 1: excited to be involved with it because I think we're 597 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: going to do what I've always wanted to do, which 598 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: is to help make better decisions that will lead not 599 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: only to less wrongful convictions, but to more rightful ones. Yeah. 600 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 2: So let me start by saying, I'm the one, and 601 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 2: there's like a big love fest. I'm the one that's 602 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,839 Speaker 2: humbled and honored. I mean, Jason, you're a personal hero 603 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 2: of mine. I tell you privately all the time. I'll 604 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 2: tell you publicly now. I mean I am honored, humbled 605 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 2: and everything in between. To be the host of what 606 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 2: I think is a really important podcast, it's inspiring, and 607 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 2: I think it's a real opportunity for people to instead 608 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 2: of asking how do I get out of jury service? 609 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 2: Which I always tell people, Well, if you were wrongfully 610 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 2: accused of a crime, wouldn't you want you on the 611 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 2: jury instead of getting out of jury service? If you're 612 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 2: there wanting to be a part of it, especially in 613 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 2: a criminal case, and make or that justice is really done, 614 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 2: and that you're highly inquisitive asking the right questions to 615 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 2: yourself throughout the trial and to your fellow jurorsm when 616 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 2: you deliberate, So we do not have more of these 617 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 2: stories about people getting out after decades have passed, and 618 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 2: rather more stories about them getting acquitted before the damage 619 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 2: is done or more damage is done, because any criminal 620 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: prosecution against the innocent is damaging to their families, to them, 621 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 2: and of course to the victim and the victims' families. 622 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,879 Speaker 1: So, Josh, as we get ready to sign off, this 623 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: is the part of the show where I first of 624 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: all thank my guest in this case, you for being here, 625 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,760 Speaker 1: and then turn my microphone off and kick back and listen, 626 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,720 Speaker 1: because this is the segment of the show called closing. 627 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 2: Arguments, you know, because I feel like this fell on 628 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 2: deaf ears to some extent. I'll just read to you 629 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,280 Speaker 2: my closing argument to the court that was recently denied, 630 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 2: and let the listeners judge for themselves how they would 631 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 2: have ruled if they were the judge. This is no 632 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 2: ordinary case. There is no more important legal question in 633 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 2: the American system of justice than whether someone may be 634 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 2: executed without ever had a meaningful opportunity to present the 635 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 2: complete evidence of his or her innocence. Recognizing that the 636 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 2: execution of an innocent person is quote the quintessential miscarriage 637 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 2: of justice end quote, the request is simple. This court 638 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 2: should hear and consider the totality of the evidence before 639 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 2: permitting the State of Florida to execute James Daily. Jack 640 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 2: Pearcy has confessed time and time again that he killed 641 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 2: Shelley Boggio and that James Daly had nothing whatsoever to 642 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,320 Speaker 2: do with it. There has been some debate over the 643 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 2: years about the motives behind Piercey's confessions. Indeed, throughout the 644 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 2: course of James Daly's three decade long fight to clear 645 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 2: his name, many have speculated as to why Jack Pearcy 646 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 2: would repeatedly confess to sole responsibility for the murder, only 647 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 2: to later recant. But if in fact James Daily was 648 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 2: the person who murdered Chili Bogio, it makes absolutely no 649 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 2: sense that Jack Pearcy would ever confess to her murder. 650 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 2: After all, it would be James Daly who was responsible 651 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 2: for Jack Pearcy's three decade long wrongful incarceration for in 652 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:33,359 Speaker 2: essence ruining his life. No person in Pearcy's position would 653 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 2: ever confess to a murder that would allow Daily to 654 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 2: escape responsibility. Piercy's most recent effort to explain why he 655 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 2: would have given such a false confession is so irrational 656 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 2: and self serving that it is obviously made up. He 657 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 2: claims that he hoped to gain some advantage of his 658 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 2: own by capitalizing on the efforts of James Daly's legal 659 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 2: team to overturn mister Daly's conviction. But how could Piercy's 660 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,399 Speaker 2: legal position ever be helped by his confession that he 661 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,240 Speaker 2: committed the crime alone. Once he confessed, there's no chance 662 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 2: that anything mister Daly's legal team would be doing could 663 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 2: somehow benefit Piercy. Moreover, we James Daly's legal team remain 664 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 2: engaged in a tremendous effort to fight his wrongful conviction. 665 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 2: So even if you take Piercy at his word that 666 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 2: he confessed to gainst some sort of legal benefit of 667 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 2: his own, which again makes no sense, he would be 668 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,839 Speaker 2: more incentivized than ever to sit back and see how 669 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:38,720 Speaker 2: things unfold. So what changed. The only thing that changed 670 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 2: is that Piercy's mother read about his latest confession in 671 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 2: the newspaper and expressed her genuine despair. Piercy's mother also 672 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 2: alerted him to the consequences of his confession with respect 673 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 2: to his son. So what is far more probable is 674 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 2: that Jack Piercy's guilty conscience, burdened by the knowledge that 675 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,760 Speaker 2: he may be responsible for and yet another innocent person, 676 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:06,320 Speaker 2: has caused him to confess his sole responsibility numerous times, 677 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 2: only to recant when faced with his mother's grief and 678 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 2: the fear that his family might shun him if he 679 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 2: finally comes clean about what he did. The court need 680 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 2: not reach a conclusion on this issue. Reasonable minds can 681 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 2: disagree about the motive behind Jack Pearcy's confessions and ensuing recantations. However, 682 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 2: one thing is for certain. Jack Pearcy has managed to 683 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 2: wiggle out of these confessions in the past by disgracefully 684 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 2: gaming the legal system at the expense of James Dally's 685 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,319 Speaker 2: grueling pursuit of the truth and the Boggio family's right 686 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 2: to closure. At long last, the games should end here 687 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,399 Speaker 2: under oath, when the state had the full and fair 688 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,320 Speaker 2: opportunity to cross examine him, Piercy let the truth slip, 689 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,240 Speaker 2: and he did so in the context of yet another 690 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 2: recantation of a confession committed the crime alone. This is 691 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 2: earth shattering for James Daly's fight for justice. This is 692 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 2: the truth catching up to the line. Now the Florida 693 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 2: Evidence Code requires that this new evidence, in fact, this 694 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 2: critical admission that places Piercy alone with Shelley Boggio during 695 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,720 Speaker 2: the time frame in which you was murdered, be held 696 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 2: up to the bright light of the truth. Indeed, let 697 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 2: it be placed on the scales of justice along with 698 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:34,720 Speaker 2: the cumulative extraordinary evidence of James Daly's innocence. Then until 699 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,839 Speaker 2: now has been hidden from the eyes of the law 700 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 2: due to procedural obstacles. Let us then see how the 701 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 2: scales tip once and for all. Now that was rejected 702 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 2: by the court. And I ask you, is that asking 703 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,240 Speaker 2: too much? If the courts are not going to listen 704 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,320 Speaker 2: and simply have a hearing and let us present the evidence. 705 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 2: I would ask your listeners to please help us by 706 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 2: joining the fight. 707 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 708 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud 709 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll 710 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,240 Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping 711 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,239 Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org 712 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like 713 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. 714 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,800 Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR 715 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on 716 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,719 Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. 717 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava 718 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one