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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.

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Speaker 2: This week's adult education, We've got Meg Josephson coming on.

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Speaker 2: She's got a new book, Are you Mad at Me? Babe?

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Speaker 2: Are you mad at me?

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Speaker 1: Are you?

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Speaker 2: Are you mad at me? How to stop focusing on

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Speaker 2: what others think and start living for you? Let's get

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Speaker 2: her on. Hello, Hi, Hello, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great? How are you guys doing good? Good?

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Speaker 3: Thank you?

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited

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Speaker 4: to talk with you.

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Speaker 2: Of course, and yeah, let's just get right into it.

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Speaker 2: So cool. I feel like one of the most number

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Speaker 2: one maybe like common phrases are are you mad at me?

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Speaker 2: I know I used to say it all the time.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I do it. I don't think I

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Speaker 2: do it now, but past relationships out I's book.

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Speaker 4: Are you mad at Me?

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Speaker 2: Why are you mad at me?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And for you just to start like from the very beginning,

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Speaker 2: like how did this concept come about?

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Speaker 4: Where was this in your life? And then let's get

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Speaker 4: into it. Well, you're not alone in thinking and asking

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Speaker 4: that question. I think many of us feel alone in

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Speaker 4: it because there's quite a lot of shame tied up

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of overthinking that's just happening up here

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Speaker 4: in the head, so we're not seeing that other people

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Speaker 4: are thinking and wondering that, But for me it definitely started.

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Speaker 4: And in your book the next chapter, I think you

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Speaker 4: touch on this a lot. It started early on with

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Speaker 4: my dad, where he was super volatile and rageful and critical,

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Speaker 4: and so for me, just wondering are you mad at me?

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Speaker 1: Was my form of self protection.

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Speaker 4: I just thought, oh, if I keep pleasing him, or

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Speaker 4: if I keep impressing him, or I'm perfect enough or

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Speaker 4: I'm good enough, then things will be okay, or the

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Speaker 4: peace will be kept at home, or I'll be enough

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Speaker 4: for him.

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Speaker 1: So for me that are you mad at me?

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Speaker 4: Came from managing his moods and regulating his emotions for him,

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Speaker 4: and that was so protective.

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Speaker 1: For me growing up.

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Speaker 4: And this is what we can talk about of, you know,

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Speaker 4: with the faun response of this is a self protective mechanism,

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Speaker 4: and I needed that. But when I left home and

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Speaker 4: I was in my adult life, it wasn't as needed,

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Speaker 4: but it was still there. And so wondering if my

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Speaker 4: dad was mad at me turned into overthinking social interactions

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Speaker 4: and wondering if my friends are mad at me and

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Speaker 4: feeling like I was going to get fired.

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Speaker 1: Anytime my boss said do you have a sec or

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Speaker 1: can we talk?

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Speaker 2: Can we talk? Is probably the worst text message you

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Speaker 2: can get.

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Speaker 1: Immediate stomach drop. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So that's certainly how it has evolved for me.

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Speaker 4: And just recognizing oh my gosh, I really didn't need

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Speaker 4: that and that was really useful, and not shaming myself

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Speaker 4: more becoming aware of that pattern so that I can

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Speaker 4: see it and say do I need to be doing

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Speaker 4: this right now? That's that's where it started for me,

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Speaker 4: and now as a therapist in my private practice, I

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Speaker 4: that's what I work on with clients too.

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Speaker 2: You can relate to that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I went through a phase in my life where every

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Speaker 3: phone call that would come through, I'll be like, oh, no,

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Speaker 3: what have I done? Why is this person phoning? And

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Speaker 3: it's just like a that kind of anxiety that sits

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Speaker 3: in your stomach, where what have I done? Mm hmm,

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Speaker 3: like why is why is this person phoning? And they

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Speaker 3: they phoned it to tell me or ask me why

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Speaker 3: have I done this? Or why have I done that?

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Speaker 3: I think it comes from having anxious phases in your

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Speaker 3: life as well mine was not necessarily my childhood. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: mine was more later in my later in my life,

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Speaker 3: but it kind of left me a feeling of most

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Speaker 3: times in the phone ring, I'm like, oh, no, what

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Speaker 3: have I done? What's this person need?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you're speaking to something important in that that it

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Speaker 4: doesn't it's this instinct to fawn, to appease the threat

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Speaker 4: that's in front of us.

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Speaker 2: Can you give more, like, help me understand what fawning is?

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Speaker 1: Yes, okay.

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Speaker 4: So many of us are familiar with fight or flight

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Speaker 4: as a threat response.

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Speaker 1: We have four threat responses.

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Speaker 4: Freeze is the third and fawn is the fourth one,

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Speaker 4: and it's what I believe is the most common but

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Speaker 4: least recognized threat response, and that it's about when the

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Speaker 4: body's detecting a threat, whether or not that threat is real,

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Speaker 4: like someone's about to hurt us, or there's a line

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Speaker 4: in front of us, or perceived like there's a shift

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Speaker 4: in mood, and then you're like, oh, are they mad

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Speaker 4: at me?

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Speaker 1: Or they didn't.

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Speaker 4: Respond to your text? Oh gosh, what did I do?

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Speaker 4: I did something wrong? The fawn response is about appeasing

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Speaker 4: the threat. It's about trying to be liked by it,

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Speaker 4: impressing it, satisfying it. So, for example, if you're part

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Speaker 4: as being a little cold or stand offish, and you

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Speaker 4: immediately think, oh, maybe your instinct is are we okay?

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Speaker 1: Are you mad at me? Do you still love me?

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Speaker 4: Or maybe you're being really helpful or maybe you're complementing

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Speaker 4: them as a way to appease and as a way

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Speaker 4: to diffuse the situation. And sometimes we need it. It's

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Speaker 4: certainly very useful and protective in a lot of situations

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Speaker 4: to survive within systems, to get a paycheck. But when

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Speaker 4: we're doing it all the time, when we don't need it,

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Speaker 4: that's when it's exhausting. So just this thought of it

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Speaker 4: doesn't have to be just childhood because it's in our

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Speaker 4: It's an instinct within us. We can learn it in

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Speaker 4: an abusive relationship, we can learn it in a toxic

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Speaker 4: work environment. It's an instinctive response that we can use

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Speaker 4: at any time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think mine probably like, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: can relate obviously to the father stuff, but I think

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Speaker 2: mine came from more of the DV background, because it's

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Speaker 2: like I didn't want to upset them, so it's like,

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Speaker 2: are are you okay? Like what can I just because

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Speaker 2: I'm like I don't want to get hit again, or

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Speaker 2: I don't want them to Yes, anything I do to backfire,

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Speaker 2: So let me try to just diffuse the situation.

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Speaker 4: And I know that you've spoken about that marriage and

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Speaker 4: the abuse that happened within it, and the fun response

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Speaker 4: is so common in DV relationships because it's kind of

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Speaker 4: the only thing in your control and so and it's

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Speaker 4: also we're talking about self blame here, where blaming ourselves

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Speaker 4: is how we can make sense of abuse when no

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Speaker 4: one else is acknowledging it. If you're in a relationship

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Speaker 4: with someone who's abusive, or you have a parent who's

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Speaker 4: abusive or manipulative or whatever, blaming ourselves is the only

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Speaker 4: way that it can make sense, and which you know

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Speaker 4: keeps us stuck in that pattern.

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Speaker 1: It's me, it's my fault. Something's wrong with me, and

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Speaker 1: I need to fix myself to be good enough for

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Speaker 1: this person that's abusing.

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Speaker 2: Me, right, because if I was good, then they wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be abusing me. Yeah, exactly, so fun, so fun awful.

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Speaker 3: I listened to a lot of your social media stuff

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Speaker 3: this morning, and I really liked it. And there's some

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Speaker 3: there's some questions within here as well, and one of

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Speaker 3: them is about avoiding conflict. Yeah, so I've got a

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Speaker 3: question around that. So the only people I avoid conflict

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Speaker 3: with other people that I love is I don't want

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Speaker 3: to get in conflictual situations with them, so I just

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Speaker 3: try and avoid it rather than maybe I don't want

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Speaker 3: to have the conversation or however I do it. I

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Speaker 3: avoid it. But it's only with the people that I

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Speaker 3: love and I'm close to. Anyone else I'm quite happy

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Speaker 3: to have conflict with. I don't I don't instigate it,

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Speaker 3: but if they want to be disrespectful and just conflict,

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Speaker 3: then I'm there for it. But it's so it's just

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Speaker 3: strange that I really avoid it with the people that

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Speaker 3: I love.

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Speaker 4: Darly, that actually makes a lot of sense to me,

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Speaker 4: because avoiding conflict puts the relationship at risk. I mean, sorry,

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Speaker 4: conflict itself to the part that learned to fear conflict

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Speaker 4: puts the relationship at risk. So it makes sense that

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Speaker 4: you would avoid conflict with the most high stake relationships,

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Speaker 4: because what would that mean if someone who really really

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Speaker 4: knew you and loved you you got into a conflict

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Speaker 4: with and there was a big rupture and the relationship

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Speaker 4: was over or ruined, which is what this part believes.

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Speaker 4: If I get into a conflict with someone, there's no

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Speaker 4: going back. It's done. That's what a lot of us

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Speaker 4: learn with our experiences. For people that you really love

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Speaker 4: and want in your life, that would feel really gary

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Speaker 4: to lose them. So I actually think it makes a

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Speaker 4: lot of sense versus like an acquaintance or a colleague

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Speaker 4: that you don't have a deep, all knowing relationship with. Ugh,

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Speaker 4: maybe they don't know you so well and it wouldn't

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Speaker 4: hurt so badly. But to be abandoned in conflict by

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Speaker 4: someone that really knows you, that's such a deeper cut.

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Speaker 2: But it is important to have you know because if not,

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Speaker 2: then it comes out sideways. Right. So what would be

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Speaker 2: a tip to manage that piece of it?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, this has been such a piece of work

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Speaker 4: for me personally in my healing and with my clients

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Speaker 4: as well as conflict is actually and when I say conflicts,

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Speaker 4: let's clarify what I mean. I'm not talking about repetitive,

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Speaker 4: cyclical conflicts in a toxic dynamic.

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Speaker 1: Here.

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Speaker 4: We're talking about natural friction that arises in a relationship

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Speaker 4: and it's actually so healthy, especially with people that are

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Speaker 4: close to us and that really know us and love us,

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Speaker 4: because conflicts can only happen if both people are able

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Speaker 4: to be themselves, because there's enough room and space and

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Speaker 4: safety for differing opinions to exist. If there's a little

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Speaker 4: bit of friction here and there, it means both people

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Speaker 4: can have their own opinions, and that's such a beautiful thing.

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Speaker 4: So because many of us learn to fear and avoid

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Speaker 4: conflicts because we've seen it handled and disregulated or unsafe ways,

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Speaker 4: the healing happens in showing ourselves, oh my gosh, we

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Speaker 4: had a disagreement with my best friend and she's still here,

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Speaker 4: she still loves me. Or I brought something up to

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Speaker 4: my partner that was really bothering me and I expressed

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Speaker 4: it in a way that felt good and they listened.

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Speaker 4: And when we can show ourselves that we can have

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Speaker 4: a little bit of friction and it doesn't mean the

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Speaker 4: relationship is over. Sometimes it will mean that, but those

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Speaker 4: people weren't meant for us anyway. When we can recognize

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Speaker 4: and see and show ourselves that a little bit of

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Speaker 4: conflict can actually lead to more understanding and closeness because

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Speaker 4: we're letting someone into our deepest most intimate thoughts and feelings,

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Speaker 4: it's actually an opportunity for more closeness, right.

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Speaker 2: I agree with that, Yeah, every I think those all

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Speaker 2: lead to growth moments and learning and understanding. What are

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Speaker 2: some of your biggest tips in your book to stop

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Speaker 2: focusing on what other people's you know, thoughts and opinions

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Speaker 2: are of you.

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Speaker 4: I would say the most simple takeaway is because the

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Speaker 4: faun responds people pleasing, wanting to be seen as perfect,

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Speaker 4: This is such an unconscious mechanism to bring it into

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Speaker 4: the conscious mind. Pausing a pause is a people pleaser's

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Speaker 4: best friend. Because we're doing this, there's an urgency with

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Speaker 4: people pleasing. It's no, no, no worries, No, it's totally fine,

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Speaker 4: Oh no problem, Or you're apologizing first, or you're trying

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Speaker 4: to diffuse it quickly to pause. What's happening here? Am

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Speaker 4: I safe? Do I need to be people pleasing? Do

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Speaker 4: I need to be over explaining myself? That pause automatically

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Speaker 4: brings that unconscious response into the conscious mind so that

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Speaker 4: we can see it and maybe choose something else, or

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Speaker 4: at least just recognize that we're safe in that moment.

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Speaker 4: I can certainly go into more context based tips as

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Speaker 4: well if we want to go like boundaries or but

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Speaker 4: you tell me what you're going.

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Speaker 2: That's all in the book.

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Speaker 3: Though, Yeah, I've got one. I've got one where maybe

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Speaker 3: you can provide some context, context or clarity. Right. So, naturally,

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Speaker 3: growing up, I was a people pleaser, not to everyone,

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Speaker 3: but to certain people. And it's it's strange because when

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Speaker 3: I look back on my life and my career, there's

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Speaker 3: certain periods and phases, and those periods and phases that

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Speaker 3: have always been the most successful career wise by finances,

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Speaker 3: is where I've actually switched off and just been an

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Speaker 3: absolute dick and not cared about what anyone thinks or

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Speaker 3: my family. That's that's a bit different, but almost like

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Speaker 3: a like a healthy arrogance that kicks in where I'm like,

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Speaker 3: I don't care what anyone else thinks. This is what

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Speaker 3: I'm doing, this is how I do it. And then

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Speaker 3: anyone that doesn't want to be involved, they can they

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Speaker 3: can leave. And those and it's tough because these those

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Speaker 3: periods in my life I've noted it here were my

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Speaker 3: most successful fin actually my most successful career wise. I

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Speaker 3: probably was happy in a lot of those those phases,

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Speaker 3: but the would be periods where I would sit down

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Speaker 3: and reflect and be like, this is not who I am.

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Speaker 3: But it's tough because you're getting You're getting all the

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Speaker 3: other things that come from it, like the career stuff

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Speaker 3: and the finances, And I'm like, how.

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Speaker 2: Does this work?

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Speaker 3: Because this is where my identity is in my career,

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Speaker 3: But here I don't feel like I'm being myself. So

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Speaker 3: there must be a balance somewhere in the middle where, yeah,

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Speaker 3: where you find that we are not people pleasing, but

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Speaker 3: you're also not being totally elusive to everyone else's thoughts

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Speaker 3: and feelings, which I probably was at those times.

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Speaker 1: And is to clarify, I want to just draw a

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Speaker 1: threat here is you're saying that in the periods of

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Speaker 1: your life where you were people pleasing is when you

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Speaker 1: were the most successful, or when you didn't care you

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Speaker 1: were the most.

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Speaker 3: Successful, When I didn't care, I was the most successful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think it's such a great reflection. Something really important

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Speaker 4: to understand about this cycle of people pleasing is that

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Speaker 4: it's rooted in we rely on external validation to know

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Speaker 4: that we're safe, and so this is why it can

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Speaker 4: go so underdetected because it works. It works to be

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Speaker 4: attuned to what people are thinking of us. It works

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Speaker 4: to be so charismatic and perfect and good like it

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Speaker 4: works for a short amount of time. So I think

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Speaker 4: that balance that you're speaking to the question to kind

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Speaker 4: of differentiate, to know, is this a healthy balance of

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Speaker 4: caring or not caring, or being hyper attuned to what

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Speaker 4: people think of me or not get caring at all?

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Speaker 1: Is am I abandoning myself?

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Speaker 4: Because in order for us to appease other people, we

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Speaker 4: need to neglect ourselves in the process. And I think

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Speaker 4: that there's a misconception, which is maybe what you're touching

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Speaker 4: on is that, oh, I if I heal this people pleasing,

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Speaker 4: I'm just like kind of an a whole and I'm

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Speaker 4: setting really harsh boundaries with everyone and I don't care

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Speaker 4: and I'm just being so rude, And there's it's not

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Speaker 4: black or white, there's not this. People think that there's

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Speaker 4: often this passivity with healing this people pleasing pattern of

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Speaker 4: I don't care at all, it's apathetic, And that balance

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Speaker 4: is really being connected to ourselves. And so I think

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Speaker 4: that's such a beautiful point that you spoke to of

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Speaker 4: you realized, Oh, this isn't me, this isn't who I am.

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Speaker 4: That is the exact question or thing to notice is

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Speaker 4: when we lose touch with our internal world to come

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Speaker 4: back to ourselves, how is this feeling for me?

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Speaker 1: How do I feel doing this? What are my values?

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Speaker 1: This is aligning with me?

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Speaker 4: Do I feel rezis and fall or angry or noticing

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Speaker 4: what's happening internally When we aren't, we're abandoning ourselves.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's the question to come back to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good point. I think I've noted here

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Speaker 3: as well, Like when I go through the people pleasing phases,

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Speaker 3: like certainly later in life you end up. My viewpoint

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Speaker 3: on it now is probably a cynical one where a

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Speaker 3: few people please you will get you will eventually get

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Speaker 3: shafted emotionally and professionally. Yeah, And that's what I mean

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Speaker 3: about finding the balance in the middle, because I can

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Speaker 3: be the guy up there quite easily who doesn't care.

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Speaker 3: I can quite easily be the person that tries to

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Speaker 3: people please, but I know that I'm eventually going to

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Speaker 3: get shafted, so I don't like being there either. I

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Speaker 3: need to take the balance in between where I'm the

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Speaker 3: person that I want to be and not that I

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Speaker 3: don't have that balance sometimes, but I'm personally need to

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Speaker 3: be without being that person and also the person who's

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Speaker 3: trying to please everyone.

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Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely, because people pleasing.

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Speaker 4: In the faun response, there's an inauthenticity to it, and

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Speaker 4: that we are morphing ourselves to be what other people

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Speaker 4: want us to be and inauthentic. And I say that

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Speaker 4: quite neutrally, and that it's we're disconnected from who we

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Speaker 4: really are when we're doing that, so to because because

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Speaker 4: in order for us to fawn, we have to abandon

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Speaker 4: ourselves to even just come back and say, does this

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Speaker 4: feel real to me? Do I feel like I'm being

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Speaker 4: myself or do I feel like I'm kind of being

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Speaker 4: a chameleon in these relationships and I'm kind of schmoozing

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Speaker 4: and whatever. That is such a great messenger of Oh,

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Speaker 4: I need to come back.

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Speaker 1: I need to ground myself a bit.

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Speaker 4: I need to come back to who I am and

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Speaker 4: what I'm actually needing right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the chameleon thing is huge. I'd written about that too.

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Speaker 2: Where I was like twenties even into my middle thirties,

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Speaker 2: is like I would just be kind of what they

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Speaker 2: wanted me to be.

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Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, oh, you.

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Speaker 2: Smoke cigarettes, so do I, And I'm like, no, I

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Speaker 2: don't like I am selling a cigarette exactly, but we

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Speaker 2: like my hair up. Well, I don't like my airp

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Speaker 2: but I'm putting my hair up now every single day.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: But I think too, Like even with social media, I

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Speaker 2: remember when I used to read comments, it's like you're

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Speaker 2: too much of this, and it's like, Okay, I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: not be too much this, and then I'm gonna like

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Speaker 2: I'll stop showing my boobs or or I'm too you

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Speaker 2: know it's and then I started to just go, oh wait,

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Speaker 2: I'm I'm just trying to get them to like me

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Speaker 2: when this doesn't. And then I felt everything I was

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Speaker 2: doing was unforced to then try to appease them. And

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Speaker 2: I realized I was like, no, they're just gonna dislike

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Speaker 2: me forever, and that's I have to just like own

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Speaker 2: that they won't like me no matter what I do,

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Speaker 2: wear this or don't wear that, or say this or

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Speaker 2: don't say that or own this or don't own that

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Speaker 2: Like I, they won't like me, and I just have

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Speaker 2: to go, Okay, I want I need to be myself

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Speaker 2: and take it or leave it kind of thing. But

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Speaker 2: it's not easy. I'm not like, it's still not easy. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 2: you know the people pleasing person that I wanted. The

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Speaker 2: one hundred percent approval rate still hurts, but it doesn't

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Speaker 2: affect me the way that it used to affect me,

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Speaker 2: like it used to really depress me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's beautiful testament to the hard work that you've done,

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Speaker 4: and that it's the fond response, hard at work of

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Speaker 4: let me be everything for everyone and the humble truth.

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Speaker 1: Humbling truth is that even.

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Speaker 4: If we're perfect or we are perfectly catering ourselves to everyone,

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Speaker 4: people will still have perceptions of us that we don't

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Speaker 4: agree with, people will misunderstand us. And have a chapter

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Speaker 4: called Nothing Is Personal, which talks about this of we're

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Speaker 4: all seeing other people in the world through the lens

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Speaker 4: of our own inner world, which is our beliefs and

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Speaker 4: our fears and our insecurities, and there's nothing objective happening,

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Speaker 4: and so yeah, to just come back to ourselves, what

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Speaker 4: do I think of this?

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Speaker 1: Does this feel good to me? Do I like this

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Speaker 1: photo of myself?

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Speaker 4: But again, because the faun response is so rooted in

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Speaker 4: external validation, it, oh, they liked they liked this, so.

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Speaker 1: They like me. So now I'm good and to flip it.

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Speaker 1: Do I like this? Do I feel good? That's such

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Speaker 1: an empowering switch.

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Speaker 2: It so is, Meg, You are just so well spoken. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I am adding to Kart and everyone should too. It's

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Speaker 2: are you mad at me? How to stop focusing on

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Speaker 2: what others think and start living for you? Uh? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're You're wonderful. So thank you so much for.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much, really for having me appreciate it. You,

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Speaker 4: thank you, thank thanks very thank you.

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Speaker 2: Meg.

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Speaker 1: Okay, talk to you soon. Bye bye