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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 3: My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 2: And in today's episode and the episode to follow, we're

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Speaker 2: going to be getting into the topic of golden fishes,

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Speaker 2: specifically varieties of carp that have been historically selectively bred

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Speaker 2: to produce brightly colored fish golden fish even, but colors

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Speaker 2: that are not limited just to gold or yellows, oranges

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Speaker 2: and so forth, as well as some less bright colors

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Speaker 2: as well. But basically this process by which humans have

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Speaker 2: turned wildfish into almost swimming jewels to delight the eye

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Speaker 2: and perhaps inspire the imagination. However, I do have to

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Speaker 2: stress that for a lot of us, we might not

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Speaker 2: find the goldfish all that awe inspiring. I don't know

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Speaker 2: about you, Joe, but I certainly was exposed to the

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Speaker 2: goldfish pretty early on, like a lot of kids. I've

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Speaker 2: seen goldfish my whole life. I had a goldfish at

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Speaker 2: some point. I've seen them carried around, doomed to a

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Speaker 2: lonesome death and tiny plastic bags by children who perhaps

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Speaker 2: won them at a fair or just bought them at

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Speaker 2: a store without a lot of forethought. So I don't know,

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Speaker 2: like I have, I have mixed feelings about the goldfish

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Speaker 2: and maybe less respect for their beauty because of these

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Speaker 2: experiences with them.

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Speaker 3: For a few years, when I was in elementary school,

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Speaker 3: my family had a relatively small freshwater aquarium that I

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Speaker 3: really liked. I would just, you know, I would watch

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Speaker 3: it like team. I would just sit there and look

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Speaker 3: at it. I don't think we ever had any goldfish

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Speaker 3: that I recall. We got a variety of fishes from

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Speaker 3: a little little fish store in town. I still remember

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Speaker 3: where that place was. It no longer exists. But the

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Speaker 3: thing that I was really interested in was there was

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Speaker 3: a tiny type of frog, like aquatic frog that had

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Speaker 3: little little legs that would swim around in the tank.

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Speaker 3: I never thought since I grew up to look up

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Speaker 3: what that was, but yeah, some kind of little, little,

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Speaker 3: little bitty frog that would swim around, and I thought

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Speaker 3: that was really cool. But yeah, I guess it never

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Speaker 3: struck me as strange that we didn't bother to put

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Speaker 3: any goldfish in our aquarium, but we didn't. I do

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Speaker 3: think I had some friends who had goldfish. One friend

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Speaker 3: of mine had a goldfish actually now that I remember

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Speaker 3: in a like your classic setup sort of the coin

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Speaker 3: shaped tank on the table. That is, it's not even

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Speaker 3: a tank really, it's like a you know, a jar

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Speaker 3: that would put marbles in. But a fish was living

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Speaker 3: in there. I'm sure the fish was not not too

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Speaker 3: happy to be in such such a small space.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I was to chatting with my wife about this, and

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Speaker 2: I knew that when she was a kid, they often

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Speaker 2: had you know, aquariums and pets around and and uh.

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Speaker 2: And I asked ask her, well, dude, y'all had a goldfish, right,

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Speaker 2: and she was like, no, no, we never had a goldfish.

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Speaker 2: Like there was this this prevailing understanding that goldfish were

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Speaker 2: not happy and so they never they never got one.

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Speaker 2: But but for me, it's like I just grew up

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Speaker 2: thinking like this was sort of the default mundane fish,

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Speaker 2: which is crazy considering you know, we'll get into it

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Speaker 2: even a bit in this episode. I think that the

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Speaker 2: history of the goldfish, uh, and there were times when

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Speaker 2: it was definitely not a common fish. If you were

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Speaker 2: a commoner, it was illegal to have one.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: These were the fish of royalty. These were uh, these

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Speaker 2: were again little gems, but they become they became so

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Speaker 2: mundane and so every day for a lot of us

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Speaker 2: that we just didn't even see them as interesting fish.

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Speaker 2: You were more in you didn't have the goldfish, but

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Speaker 2: you were interested in the frog. We had the goldfish.

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Speaker 2: I was more interested in the little sucker cleaner organisms

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Speaker 2: that would feed on the sides of the tank, and

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Speaker 2: the goldfish I kind of just took for granted. I

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Speaker 2: didn't even really question, like, why is it golden like this?

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Speaker 2: What's what's the purpose of its coloration? And you know,

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Speaker 2: and honestly never even gave it a lot of a

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Speaker 2: lot of respect as an organism. But as we'll get into,

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of fascinating things about the goldfish,

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Speaker 2: things that that play into their history of domestication and

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Speaker 2: artificial selection, but also just their their their natural gifts

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Speaker 2: as an organism.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's interesting how that the goldfish, in being

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Speaker 3: both historically and visually in some ways remarkable but also

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Speaker 3: culturally extremely commonplace, is kind of a it encapsulates something

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Speaker 3: about the broader family of fish, is that it belongs

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Speaker 3: to the carp family, which is both in some ways

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Speaker 3: very remarkable. They're interesting and unique things about the carp family,

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Speaker 3: but it's also very commonplace. It is, I believe the

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Speaker 3: most are one of the most diverse and numerous of

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Speaker 3: all vertebrate taxa.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And in fact, if we had just called

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Speaker 2: this episode stuff to blow your mind carp, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: some of you might be morbidly interested with some of

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Speaker 2: you might be like, no, thank you, I don't need

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Speaker 2: to know about carp. What's more every day than a

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Speaker 2: carp You're wrong.

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Speaker 3: There's some weird, cool carp stuff.

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Speaker 2: We're here. Absolutely is the other side of the golden

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Speaker 2: fish coin. Of course, the koi, and this is another

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Speaker 2: fish that will you will find a lot of places.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, my wife's family had at least one

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Speaker 2: koi fish. They had like a small koi pond growing up,

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Speaker 2: and I imagine a number of you out there listening

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Speaker 2: do as well. I've never never can up to koi,

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Speaker 2: but h and I also encountered them for the first time.

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Speaker 2: I think later on in life encountered or noticed them.

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Speaker 2: It's possible they were pointed out to me as a

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Speaker 2: child and I was like, yeah, whatever, I'm thinking about

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Speaker 2: Ninja's or something instead. But but much later on, you know,

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Speaker 2: I got to to visit some really remarkable koi ponds,

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Speaker 2: and some you know, generally and there they're in garden environments,

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Speaker 2: so there's a lot going on to sort of captivate you.

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Speaker 2: I got to see some really impressive coi pons in

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Speaker 2: both China and Japan, and and for that reason, I

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Speaker 2: think I have perhaps an unfair tendency to see the

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Speaker 2: koi as something special and sort of like a true gem,

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Speaker 2: some sort of a wild, magical creature, whereas I again

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Speaker 2: I'm I'm probably unfairly dismissive of the goldfish, but there's

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Speaker 2: I do find a lot of serenity in the koi.

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Speaker 2: Like the koi, I guess they feel more wild, even

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Speaker 2: if when they are inherently captive in some sort of

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Speaker 2: a pond environment, because there's often there's often a way

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Speaker 2: with you know, some sort of a decorative pond where

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Speaker 2: you at least create the illusion of wildness. Whereas the aquarium,

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Speaker 2: even a very nice aquarium, one that is very well

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Speaker 2: capped and the animals are happy, there is still that

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Speaker 2: boxing in of the environment that can feel more like

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Speaker 2: a complete domination of the thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.

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Speaker 2: But as we'll discuss, like there is there is a

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Speaker 2: fair amount of domination in play when it comes to

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Speaker 2: the goldfish, less domination maybe with the koi, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of that is going to have to do with

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Speaker 2: how old these selected breeds are.

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Speaker 3: So earlier, you said something alluding to the fact that

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Speaker 3: the gold the goldness of or the orangeness of a

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Speaker 3: goldfish or a koyfish, is in some way a trait

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Speaker 3: that is not entirely natural to the species from which

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Speaker 3: these are derived, that this is a selectively bred or

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Speaker 3: encouraged trait.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So in general, as we'll discuss, like, are these

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Speaker 2: are fish that have been that have been selectively bred

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Speaker 2: in a way to enhance, to encourage and enhance certain features,

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Speaker 2: especially coloration, And so on one hand, you can look

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Speaker 2: at a goldfish in particular and you can say, well,

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Speaker 2: that we did that, We made that happen. That is

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Speaker 2: not something that belongs in nature. This is maybe something

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Speaker 2: more akin to alchemy and the turning of lead into gold.

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Speaker 2: And and you know, I think it is fair to

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Speaker 2: say that when it comes to selective breeding, it can

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Speaker 2: feel a bit like alchemy at times, like when you

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Speaker 2: compare say a pug and a Great Dane, and you

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Speaker 2: remind yourself these this is the same species. These are

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Speaker 2: both domestic dogs. They can technically mate with each other.

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Speaker 2: These are the same the same thing, but they don't

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Speaker 2: feel like the same thing at all. Or you can

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Speaker 2: compare broccoli and cabbage and they don't feel at all

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Speaker 2: like the same species.

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Speaker 3: You know, we sort dog breeds by temperament, but we

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Speaker 3: do withchrciferous vegetables.

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Speaker 2: But get I think one interesting thing to go ahead

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Speaker 2: and get out of the way, is just that the

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Speaker 2: idea that Okay, yes, these are examples where we have

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Speaker 2: bred the creature to enhance a certain color, for example,

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Speaker 2: but that doesn't mean that gold doesn't have a place

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Speaker 2: in the natural world. For varying reasons, you do encounter

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Speaker 2: creatures that feature gold or something like gold in general

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Speaker 2: in these episodes when we talk about something being gold,

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Speaker 2: and we also might just be talking about them being

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Speaker 2: orangeur yellow, or what have you. And that could be

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Speaker 2: due in general across various animal species to pigmentation but

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Speaker 2: also to like physical characteristics that are creating this impression

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Speaker 2: of color.

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Speaker 3: Okay, they're in the gold zone.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, for some reason, they're in the gold

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Speaker 2: zone when human eyes look upon them. And of course

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Speaker 2: we love it when that happens, and there's a but

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Speaker 2: there are a number of like real, you know, serious

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Speaker 2: reasons for this colorization in different organisms. For instance, we

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Speaker 2: see sexual dimorphism in play, you know, where the coloration

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Speaker 2: on the male is important for for mate selection and breeding.

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Speaker 2: Like with the golden pheasant. If you've ever had a

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Speaker 2: chance to see a golden pheasant, say it a zoo

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Speaker 2: or some sort of avery. Uh. They these are impressive birds.

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Speaker 2: The male sport brilliant looking gold, orange and yellow colors.

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Speaker 2: There's some black in there as well, extremely eye catching,

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Speaker 2: and that is by you know, design, They are trying

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Speaker 2: to catch the eye of their perspective mate some other

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Speaker 2: There are plenty of other examples out there. There's a

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Speaker 2: golden tortoise beetle. This is a species of beetle capable

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Speaker 2: of changing its color colorization, with some individuals taking on

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Speaker 2: a shiny metallic gold appearance via structural color change. And indeed,

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Speaker 2: if you look up in images and descriptions of these,

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Speaker 2: they can look rather unreal. They can. I've seen them

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Speaker 2: described often is sometimes looking like drops of gold, like

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Speaker 2: very metallic looking. But it's going to vary depending on

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Speaker 2: species or the individual in the species, and well, I

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Speaker 2: don't think we have all the answers on exactly like

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Speaker 2: why they do it. It seems like the main ideas

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Speaker 2: have to do with the fact that the change may

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Speaker 2: help males attract mates, and it might also aid in

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Speaker 2: predation deterrence, kind of getting into the sort of prevailing

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Speaker 2: logic that brightly colored organisms are often trying to, especially

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Speaker 2: smaller organisms like insects, are trying to send a message

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Speaker 2: to say, hey, I'm here and I'm loud, that it

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Speaker 2: might be a bad idea to eat me. You might

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Speaker 2: not like it, and if you don't like it, I

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Speaker 2: want you to remember that you didn't like but yeah,

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Speaker 2: Like another example, you can think to the world of

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Speaker 2: pot and dart frogs, where you have multiple brightly colored

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Speaker 2: you know, very obvious to the eyes species, and there

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Speaker 2: is a golden poison dart frog as well, and as

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Speaker 2: with other poison dart frogs, this is a warning to

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Speaker 2: potential predators, you know, and you know saying hey, you

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Speaker 2: probably shouldn't shouldn't eat me, you might not like what

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Speaker 2: you eat. And then we also have to remember we've

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Speaker 2: talked about this before. Is that so often when we're

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Speaker 2: considering the coloration of an animal, we're taking it outside

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Speaker 2: of the context of their natural habitat. And so there

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Speaker 2: are various examples of organisms that are to some degree golden,

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Speaker 2: where if you place them in their natural habitat in

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Speaker 2: the places where they're trying to be hidden, they are

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Speaker 2: actually hidden. For example, there's the Asian golden cat, which

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Speaker 2: to be clear, isn't like super brightly colored gold, but

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Speaker 2: still gold enough for humans to call them such. And

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Speaker 2: then you have things like the leopard as well, where

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Speaker 2: you know, outside of the context of their environment, this

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Speaker 2: may look like a very loud old design. Like if

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Speaker 2: you and I were to wear like leopard print shirts

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Speaker 2: for our recording here, which I do think is a

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Speaker 2: great idea, especially if we match, you know, it would

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Speaker 2: be sending an outlandish signal like we're definitely trying to

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Speaker 2: stick out. But the leopard is has that coloration as

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Speaker 2: part of its camouflage, So within context of its environment, that's.

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Speaker 3: Stealthy, right, because the leopard is not against a gray

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Speaker 3: mate background. Yeah, so in its environment the colors it

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Speaker 3: has make sense.

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Speaker 2: Now coming back more specifically, took the goldfish and to

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Speaker 2: the koi, as I believe we've stated already. These are

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Speaker 2: both karp. The goldfish species is Caressius aratus, and koi

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Speaker 2: is a domesticated form of either of the the amor

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Speaker 2: carp that's Cyprnous roberfuscus or the common carp, which is

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Speaker 2: Soprinus carpio. And in either case we're talking we're talking

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Speaker 2: about carp, but we're talking about two different carp species

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Speaker 2: that have been altered through domestication. However, while the koi

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Speaker 2: retains the same species as its wild counterpart, the goldfish

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Speaker 2: is granted its own species and has arguably, and this

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Speaker 2: is the point, this is a point of some disagreement

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Speaker 2: among experts undergo gone speciation, probably from the Crucian carp,

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Speaker 2: though I don't think this is completely settled either.

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Speaker 3: Some of the studies that I've been looking at and

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Speaker 3: that I'm going to talk about later in this episode

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Speaker 3: talk about the goldfish and the Crusian carp as different species,

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Speaker 3: so they are generally regarded as such, but yeah, they're

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Speaker 3: thought of as at least close relatives, if not or

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Speaker 3: at least close relatives or sharing a very recent common ancestor.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it can. It can honestly get a little

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Speaker 2: confusing researching it, at least for me. But I guess

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Speaker 2: one of the things with taxonomy is you have to

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Speaker 2: realize that at some point somebody just sort of calls it,

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Speaker 2: and then there can still be a fair amount of disagreement,

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Speaker 2: change and correction on that particular call later on. So

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Speaker 2: there have been there have been some changes, for example,

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Speaker 2: regarding how we look at the goldfish over the course

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Speaker 2: of it of its history and taxonomy. And again, as

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Speaker 2: we'll discuss, the cultivation of the goldfish goes back to

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Speaker 2: over a thousand years ago. On the cooi is a

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Speaker 2: much more recent creation. So both are examples of human

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Speaker 2: breeders artificially selecting for desired features, especially color in carp species,

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Speaker 2: to produce fish that are maximally pleasing to the human eye. Now,

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Speaker 2: one question I think a lot of people might have

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Speaker 2: at this point is where does the gold come from?

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Speaker 2: Has to be there somewhere in the wild organism, uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's not created out of nothing. There has

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Speaker 2: to be some sort of trait that is then seen, admired,

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Speaker 2: and then encouraged through selective selective breeding. Right, And so

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Speaker 2: to really get into that, we have to sort of

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Speaker 2: talk about the history of this kind of selective breeding,

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Speaker 2: and in fact, the history of aquaculture the basically the

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Speaker 2: fish based alternative to agriculture, and this is this alone

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Speaker 2: is a pretty fascinating topic looking at just for how

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Speaker 2: long human beings have realized that they could master to

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Speaker 2: some degree an aquatic environment or various aquatic organisms and

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Speaker 2: and and use them in the same way that that

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Speaker 2: within agriculture we've used various plant species.

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Speaker 3: Right now, I would assume that we were that humans

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Speaker 3: have been catching and eating wildfish much longer than they

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Speaker 3: have been farming fish, just in the same way that

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Speaker 3: hunter gatherers. You know, we're gathering and eating wild plants

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Speaker 3: long before they were actually like planting crops and growing

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Speaker 3: them themselves.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, And unluckily we do have a lot of

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Speaker 2: historical writings about it. I was reading there's a twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five Forbes article by Scott Traver's titled the Incredible

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Speaker 2: Tale of How the Common carp evolved into the thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars COI. And in this the author mentions, for example,

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Speaker 2: that the Romans certainly practiced cultivation of the Eurasian carp,

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Speaker 2: plenty of the elder rights of other fish being raised

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Speaker 2: on Roman estates. So on one level, it certainly goes

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Speaker 2: back as far as the Romans, but it goes much

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Speaker 2: further back than that. In general, the domestication of different species,

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Speaker 2: different fish species, it originates multiple times, different examples of aquaculture,

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Speaker 2: emerging between at least three thousand, five hundred and two thousand,

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Speaker 2: five hundred BCE, originating at least twice in China and

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Speaker 2: North Africa. However, I've also seen arguments that the Chinese

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Speaker 2: carp cultivation may go back as far as six thousand BCE.

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Speaker 2: This according to Nakajima at All in twenty nineteen's Common

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Speaker 2: Carp Aquaculture and Neolithic China dates back eight thousand years.

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Speaker 2: This was published in Nature, Ecology and Evolution. So Chinese

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Speaker 2: aquaculture certainly goes back a long time, no matter how

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Speaker 2: you you know what findings you're presenting here integrated with

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Speaker 2: rice farming and the earliest surviving Chinese text on the subject,

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Speaker 2: Treatise on Fish Breeding, was written by Fan Lie around

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Speaker 2: four seventy five BCE. This is also known as the

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Speaker 2: Fish Breeding Classic. There's a on top of this, there's

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Speaker 2: just a lot of There are also later texts that

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Speaker 2: deal with this and in general, there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: rich lore associated with different carp species in China, And

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Speaker 2: in the next episode I might pull out one or

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Speaker 2: two of these tales if they feel particularly insightful for

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Speaker 2: our topic here, but a lot of them hinge on

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Speaker 2: the idea that a carp is sustaining, it's a source

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Speaker 2: of nourishment, and so it can end up taking on

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Speaker 2: this this air of you know, of auspicious symbolism, and

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Speaker 2: it can even become a vehicle of divine ascension. So

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Speaker 2: there are tales of fishermen ascending into heaven on winged

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Speaker 2: talking carp that they've caught.

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Speaker 3: Wait a minute, does this connect to that that myth

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Speaker 3: we've talked about before of like the carp leaping over

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Speaker 3: the say, leaping over the waterfall or leaping over the

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Speaker 3: rainbow something like, oh.

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yeah, I think you're I think you're right.

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Speaker 2: I guess one of the things about it. On one hand,

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Speaker 2: there's like the cart specific aspect of this, but then

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Speaker 2: I guess we also have to acknowledge across all human experience.

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Speaker 2: There's something about the gamble of fishing, and maybe it's

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Speaker 2: little different than the gamble of the hunt, right there's

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Speaker 2: a certain amount of you know, certainly skill and knowing

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Speaker 2: your environment and knowing the species you're after, but there's

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Speaker 2: also kind of a roll of the dice, right, so

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Speaker 2: there's a sense of the divine when you actually do

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Speaker 2: hook that really nice fish that is going to sustain

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Speaker 2: you and allow you to live the next uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: through the next meal time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I wonder to what extent hunters and fishers

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Speaker 3: would agree with this point of view, But I guess

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Speaker 3: I've always thought of a major difference being that, certainly

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Speaker 3: in the archaic context, I've thought of hunting as a

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Speaker 3: more athletic activity, one that you know, is related to

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Speaker 3: the humans speed and strength in some way, though obviously

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Speaker 3: you know, strategy and coordination or a big part of

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Speaker 3: it too, and of course your tools. But that fishing

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Speaker 3: is a more pure game of chess with the environment

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Speaker 3: that it it's because you're not having to like chase

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Speaker 3: down the fish by running faster or you know, or

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Speaker 3: throw something harder to hit it. That it is all

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Speaker 3: Maybe not all, because now I'm thinking about spearfishing and

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Speaker 3: stuff too, So I guess I'm really I'm going back

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Speaker 3: on what I was saying originally but maybe my naive

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Speaker 3: point of view originally was that fishing is the slightly

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Speaker 3: less less of the jock art of sourcing protein from

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Speaker 3: the environment. It's more of the nerdy sort of chess

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Speaker 3: with the environment, trying to understand what this water source is,

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Speaker 3: what lives at, what part of it, and how to

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Speaker 3: attract it and things like that.

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Speaker 2: I think there is often something in fishing where we

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Speaker 2: are casting something into an unseen world or world that

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Speaker 2: we see much less off. And again that's not going

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Speaker 2: to apply to every instance of fishing. Certainly there's spearfishing

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Speaker 2: and you know, fishing that is done underwater while one

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Speaker 2: is diving.

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Speaker 3: And so forth.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I suspect that there's something to this. Again,

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Speaker 2: we'd love to hear from many fisher people out there

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Speaker 2: who would like to chime in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, eventually, one of course, sees the spread of these

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Speaker 2: different aquaculture traditions and aquaculture species out of Europe and

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Speaker 2: into other areas, out of China, out of North Africa.

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't want to get too bogged down

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Speaker 2: with discussions of hoo did it first or indeed exactly

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Speaker 2: how far back these practices go, but we can at

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Speaker 2: least state that for a very long time humans have

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Speaker 2: known how to manipulate certain fish populations for their own benefit,

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Speaker 2: most mostly for food. I mean, that's the key reason,

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Speaker 2: far ahead of any ideas we might develop about encouraging

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Speaker 2: different colors. We knew that fish were a reliable source

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Speaker 2: of protein, and if we you know, we certainly can

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Speaker 2: figure out how to catch them in the wild. But

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Speaker 2: then what if you can control the wild itself, well,

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Speaker 2: then that gives you an even bigger advantage when it

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Speaker 2: comes to hooking one. So multiple different carp species were

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Speaker 2: prized by the Chinese, and among these you encounter different

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Speaker 2: color colorizations. But with both the common carp as well

396
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Speaker 2: as the Prussian carp and the Crucian carp, you encounter

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Speaker 2: a certain degree in the variation of exact color. A

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Speaker 2: dull gold is often described in the wild, but depending

399
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Speaker 2: on the genetics, even wild specimens can take on a

400
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Speaker 2: more pronounced color palette, you know, with brighter colors. So

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Speaker 2: I think one really key factor here concerning these various

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Speaker 2: carved species, and this is something that really surprised me.

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Speaker 2: This is also something that's very much in play with

404
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Speaker 2: the common goldfish that you might encounter the pet store

405
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Speaker 2: is that they have chromatophores. These are in fact, they

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Speaker 2: have different types of chromatophors that control dark and light colorization.

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Speaker 2: And to be clear, you know, we're not talking about

408
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Speaker 2: that level of color chains that you see with something

409
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Speaker 2: like a cuddlefish where it is like actively psychedelic, but

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Speaker 2: they can produce lighter or darker shades based on a

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Speaker 2: number of factors including diet, water temperature, and exposure to light.

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Speaker 2: I believe this is actually something that experienced and knowledgeable

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Speaker 2: goldfish keepers know is that you want to make sure

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Speaker 2: that your fish gets plenty of light because this helps

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Speaker 2: keep your fish bright and golden. And in general, this

416
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Speaker 2: adaptation is thought to provide camouflage in their natural environment.

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Speaker 2: So you know, there's like a mirroring or shimmering quality

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Speaker 2: of fish scales that can aid in both communication with

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Speaker 2: other fish and throw off would be predators. That's something

420
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Speaker 2: that you encounter with this fish in general, that's not

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Speaker 2: specific to carp or goldfish. And then this can also

422
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Speaker 2: get into like countershading and so forth, just something that

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Speaker 2: can visually throw off a potential predator. So the presentation

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Speaker 2: of a golden fish in general is a combination of

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Speaker 2: selectively breeding to encourage inherently brighter or more human desired colors,

426
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Speaker 2: while also providing optimal artificial conditions to encourage the most

427
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 2: desired color performance via those chromatophores. So you know, it's

428
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Speaker 2: more than one thing going on. There so many different

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Speaker 2: ways to manipulate your fish into looking pretty.

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Speaker 3: Well. Would you like to talk about goldfish doing something

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Speaker 3: potentially a little more ghastly?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, I think we do need to make people

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Speaker 2: fear the goldfish a little bit. Give let's put a

434
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 2: little more respect on them.

435
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 3: There's nothing to fear in reality, it's certainly given the

436
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 3: size difference between a human and a goldfish. But so

437
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 3: I wanted to think about the fact that, Rob, would

438
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 3: you agree people are generally not afraid of goldfish bites?

439
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 2: This is not a concern, right, I've never this is

440
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 2: the first time I've even entertained the possibility, right, Like,

441
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 2: It's the kind of thing generally you're concerned about the

442
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 2: fish as well being, not the people that are interacting

443
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 2: with it.

444
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 3: And I'm not trying to convince anybody otherwise. It is

445
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 3: totally reasonable to not be afraid of goldfish bites, because

446
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 3: if you look at the mouth of a goldfish, it

447
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 3: looks very harmless. You will see no teeth at all,

448
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 3: just a kind of smooth, flexible ring of soft looking flesh,

449
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 3: often opening and closing slowly as if blowing kisses. You know,

450
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 3: it's a very sweet, inoffensive, harmless little mouth. And actually,

451
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 3: by the way, that opening and closing of the mouth

452
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 3: repeatedly is part of a life sustaining activity that lots

453
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 3: of fish use called buckle pumping, in which the fish

454
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 3: repeatedly sucks in mouthfuls of water so that the water

455
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 3: can be passed over the gills for oxygen, but also

456
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 3: so that little bits of food that get pulled in

457
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 3: can be captured and swallowed. So the outer jaw of

458
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 3: a goldfish is indeed adapted for sucking, not for chewing,

459
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 3: and not for biting, and carp like goldfish are generally

460
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 3: said to have toothless jaws, okay, and yet a curious

461
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 3: piece of evidence occasionally makes one wonder about the about

462
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 3: the toothless mouth of the goldfish. People who keep goldfish

463
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 3: occasionally report finding on the floor of the aquarium tank

464
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 3: little white calcified as stones objects that really really look

465
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 3: like tiny teeth and rob i have some pictures in

466
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 3: the outline for you to look at here. What is it?

467
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 3: What do you think you're looking at?

468
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 2: Well, I'm certainly primed to see these as teeth now,

469
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 2: But if I were to be skeptical and trying to

470
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 2: come up with another explanation, I would think, well, maybe

471
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 2: this is either something else that the animal is producing,

472
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 2: be it some sort of like flaky scales or something

473
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 2: that it is excruding, or this something else in the

474
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: aquarium environment.

475
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 3: You know, right, Well, if you got pebbles at the

476
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: bottom of the varium tank, you know, they might just

477
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 3: blend in. A goldfish might spit out some of these

478
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 3: and you'd never even notice.

479
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, or somebody's messing with you. Someone is you have

480
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: a pranks during in your midst and they're dropping tiny

481
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 2: teeth every day just to throw you.

482
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 3: Off, right, Who keeps putting teeth in my tank? Yeah?

483
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,239
Speaker 3: So the question is are they teeth? And if so,

484
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 3: how can a toothless fish be losing teeth? The answer is, yes,

485
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 3: they are teeth, and yes they come from the goldfish.

486
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 3: The goldfish does have teeth, but not in its mouth.

487
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: All Right, I'm okay, I'm unsettled. Let's find out more so.

488
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 3: Fish in the carp family generally have these smooth outer

489
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 3: jaws that are used for sucking in water and bits

490
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 3: of material, not for chewing, But the carp can chew

491
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 3: with what's referred to as for ingeal teeth. This has

492
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 3: come up on the show before. It's been a while,

493
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 3: but the way it works is further back in the

494
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 3: goldfish's throat, maybe about as far back as the gills

495
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 3: or a little bit further. The goldfish or the carp

496
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 3: generally is equipped with blunt, molar like teeth mounted on

497
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 3: the pharyngeal bones, which the fish uses to chew up

498
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,719
Speaker 3: whatever plant matter, little invertebrates, other tough foods. It chews

499
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 3: them by sucking them into the mouth, taking them back

500
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 3: into the throat, and then grinding the food the bits

501
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 3: of food with these teeth against a hard plate on

502
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 3: the roof of the throat cavity. These pharyngeal teeth are

503
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 3: sort of like in many ways, they're not like this,

504
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 3: but in some ways are like a shark's teeth, specifically

505
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 3: in throughout the fish's life, at various points they fall

506
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 3: out and are replaced by new teeth that grow in

507
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 3: so keepers of various carp species like goldfish occasionally find

508
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 3: these lost teeth scattered on the floor of the tank.

509
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: All right, so there, and to a certain extent, they're

510
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 2: little xenomorphs, and we were generally not even giving them

511
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: credit for this.

512
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 3: A little bit now there there is a distinction to

513
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 3: be made here because we've talked about pharyngeal jaws before

514
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 3: that there are some in nature that are much more

515
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 3: like the xenomorph in the movie. For example, the jaws

516
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 3: of the Moray eel, which there really is in the

517
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 3: Moray eel, is like a second mouth inside the mouth,

518
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: the second set of jaws that you know, reaches out

519
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 3: and snatches with the jaws that come out from the throat.

520
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 3: The goldfish or the carp are not like that. What

521
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 3: you're talking about here is not a second set of jaws.

522
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 3: It is again teeth mounted on bones in the throat

523
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 3: that can chew, but they don't like reach out and snatch.

524
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: Does that make a throat that choose which which I

525
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 2: think also sounds pretty monstrous.

526
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 3: The throat that choose right sore. Still no reason to

527
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 3: be afraid of goldfish bites. If a goldfish nibbles on

528
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 3: you with the outer jaws. It's nothing. It feels like

529
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 3: a little tickle or kind of a barely perceptible little

530
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 3: bit of suction. It's cute, frankly, But if you were

531
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 3: small enough and managed to get sucked into a goldfish's

532
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 3: mouth and down the throat, then you would absolutely be

533
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 3: in for a world of hurt.

534
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: Oh wow. Yeah, And in general, if you become that

535
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: small you have a lot of problems on your hand.

536
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 2: But certainly make sure it doesn't happen while you're peering

537
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: over the top of the goldfish bowl.

538
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 3: Actually, I mean it's a never ending mental exercise that

539
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 3: if you were small enough, nearly every cute animal becomes monstrous. Yeah,

540
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 3: your cat would eat you. Your cat would eat you

541
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 3: in a second.

542
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:50,239
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Let's see a little more about the goldfish here.

543
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 2: I want to give a little more historical background here.

544
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: And I was reading a little bit about this in

545
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: The Evolutionary Origin and Domestication History of Goldfish by chin

546
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 2: at All, published in PNAS in twenty twenty, and this

547
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: gets into a lot of genetic data, but they also

548
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 2: provide just a nice overview of the known history of goldfish,

549
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 2: and they cite the Chrustian carp origins of the goldfish,

550
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: and point out that the appearance of red scales on

551
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 2: normally gray or silver carp was first discovered or phillleast

552
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 2: first recorded during the Chinese Gin dynasty two sixty five

553
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: through four to twenty CE, and then during the Tang

554
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: dynasty six eighteen through nine oh seven CE, goldfish with

555
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: preferred phenotypes were selected for ornamental ponds and water gardens,

556
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 2: and then during the Song dynasty nine to sixty through

557
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: twelve seventy nine CE, the gold or yellow variety of

558
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: goldfish became the symbol of the imperial family. And this

559
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,959
Speaker 2: is the time during which the goldfish was considered a

560
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 2: royal fish and it was not for commoners to raise them.

561
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: They were forbidden to raise them. Again, very different from today,

562
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: where everybody can pretty much get a goldfish. There's nobody's

563
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: going to ask for your royal bloodline before you purchase

564
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: one in a bag up at a local fair for

565
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 2: you know, like a quarter. But but yeah, there was

566
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: a time when they were there. There was a lot

567
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 2: of elitism in owning a goldfish. But any rate, everybody

568
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 2: loves the idea of a golden fish. The seventeenth century

569
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: saw the introduction of the goldfish into Europe and into

570
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: Japan and then eventually to America around eighteen fifty. Now,

571
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 2: in any way you cut it, we're talking about a

572
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 2: good millennium of folks messing with goldfish, a thousand years

573
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: of domestication. And the authors point out that since the

574
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: fish produces, any given fish can produce thousands of eggs,

575
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: and dozens of these fish can be raised in the

576
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 2: same pond, So that means that a millennium of goldfish

577
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 2: domestication has produced quote strong artificial selection. Charles Darwin even

578
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 2: fixated on them for this reason, as did English biologist

579
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: William Bateson and Chinese genetic researcher Shisan ci Chen, who

580
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 2: worked a lot on the topic of goldfish genetics. So

581
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: the other interesting thing here is when we're talking about

582
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 2: a thousand years of domestication messing with the goldfish, you

583
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: may be far more aware of this. If you're aware

584
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 2: of this, if you are a goldfish person, or if

585
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 2: you spend a lot of times a lot of time

586
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: going to aquariums and local aquarium stores. But it's impacted

587
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 2: far more than just their color. It's changed their body shape,

588
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: their finn configuration, their eyestyle and color. And this is

589
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 2: why goldfish have served as a great genetic model system

590
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 2: for studying fish physiology and evolution, and it has also

591
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 2: resulted in so many different varieties of goldfish. They fall

592
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: into some very you know, just broad categories include like

593
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: long bodied goldfish, double tailed, or fancy goldfish, egg shaped,

594
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,439
Speaker 2: dorsal finned, dorsal finless, just to name a few, without

595
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 2: even getting into the variety of colors where you know,

596
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: you may have reds, yellows, blacks, oranges, gray's whites, browns,

597
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 2: and blues. As with domesticated dog species, you would be

598
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 2: hard you know, you'd be hard pressed to necessarily identify

599
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 2: these as the same species. Looking at some of these

600
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: different goldfish varieties, Yeah, I mean, like one is kind

601
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 2: of like a like a like a more like egg shaped,

602
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 2: like golden fish. Another one is you know, longer and

603
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 2: like blue and black. I mean, they just don't look

604
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 2: like they should be the same species.

605
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 3: What's the one I've seen that has the bulbous eyes

606
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 3: that are pointing up?

607
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 2: Do you know what I'm talking I forget what they're

608
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 2: called offhand, but yeah, like there's like that is one

609
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 2: type of goldfish you'll see with like the enormous bulging

610
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 2: eyes where they look like some sort of a shock

611
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 2: cartoon character. But it is the you know, it's technically

612
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 2: the same species as this other sort of slimmer goldfish,

613
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 2: the kind of goldfish that might look more like the

614
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 2: logo for a business, that sort of thing, you know,

615
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 2: where it's it's less, I don't know, less goofy looking

616
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 2: in some way.

617
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 3: Well, Rob, if you're ready, I wanted to talk about

618
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 3: a particular specific deep dive on goldfish biology that I

619
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 3: did that has to do with their tolerance for anoxic conditions.

620
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 3: Are you ready for if we do that? Yeah?

621
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 2: Absolutely, this is this is really fascinating, and I think

622
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 2: is this is one of the early things that I

623
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 2: stumbled upon where I was like, oh, yeah, goldfish, they

624
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: do deserve a closer look.

625
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 3: So, the goldfish is a very hardy fish. It can

626
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 3: survive across a large range of temperatures. It can eat

627
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 3: many different kinds of food, It can tolerate murky and

628
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 3: turbid waters. Turbid meaning like cloudy water with a lot

629
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 3: of sediments suspended in it. It can just do well

630
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 3: in a lot of different circumstances. And that has made

631
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 3: it a fish that's fairly easy to spread, of course

632
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 3: around the world, also can make it an invasive fish

633
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 3: sometimes because it's so easily adaptable and can do well

634
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 3: in all kinds of waters and in a fairly unique way.

635
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 3: One of the ways that it's hardy is that can

636
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 3: it can even tolerate anoxic conditions, meaning it is specially

637
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:40,959
Speaker 3: evolved to survive being deprived of oxygen. I was reading

638
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 3: about this in a column written for the Journal of

639
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 3: Experimental Biology by biologist de Jean Michelle Weber, formerly of

640
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 3: the University of Ottawa, called Revealing How Goldfish Defy Anoxia.

641
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 3: This column was from the year twenty sixteen, and this

642
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 3: was not new research at the time it was published.

643
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 3: It was a review column about previous discoveries about respiration

644
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 3: and fish. So all vertebrate animals ultimately at some point

645
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 3: need oxygen to survive. Many vertebrates will die within minutes

646
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 3: if they can't get it, and this need for oxygen

647
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 3: is also true of animals that live underwater. These underwater

648
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 3: animals use organs like gills to extract dissolved oxygen from

649
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 3: the water so they can breathe. And I do want

650
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 3: to note something because I used to have this misconception.

651
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 3: This misconception, fish and other aquatic animals do not, as

652
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 3: I assumed when I was a kid, break apart the

653
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 3: water molecules and harvest the oxygen from the H two

654
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 3: O itself. The water molecules stay intact. Instead. The reality

655
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 3: is that liquid water usually contains some quantity of pure

656
00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 3: oxygen gas or O two dissolved within it. So healthy

657
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 3: water for fish usually has somewhere between six and eight

658
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 3: parts per million of dissolved two. But of course the

659
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 3: amount of dissolved oxygen in water can fluctuate a lot,

660
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 3: and when for any number of reasons, the oxygen levels

661
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 3: in the water get too low, aquatic vertebrates can't breathe,

662
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 3: and this is often the explanation when you see dead

663
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 3: zones in the water. If you come across a place

664
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 3: in the water with huge masses of fish and other

665
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 3: creatures floating belly up in the same area, often what

666
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 3: happened is they were suffocated by oxygen poor water. But

667
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,399
Speaker 3: despite the fact that vertebrates all ultimately need oxygen to live,

668
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 3: there are a few special water dwelling vertebrates which research

669
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 3: shows can survive days or in a few cases if

670
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 3: conditions are right, even weeks or months without oxygen, and

671
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 3: those longer time scales. Usually what that depends on is

672
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 3: very cold conditions, you know, that are slowing down the

673
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 3: metabolism greatly and putting these animals into a state of torpor.

674
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,479
Speaker 3: But still some animals can survive days, weeks, or even

675
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 3: months without oxygen. So this small club of anoxyotolerant animals includes,

676
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 3: according to Weber, two species of turtle and several fish

677
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 3: in the carp family, and one of those carp species

678
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 3: is the goldfish Carassius aratus. Weber discusses how it had

679
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 3: been known for many decades that some species of carp

680
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 3: could survive for extended periods in water that was deprived

681
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 3: of oxygen. Goldfish and their wild relatives, the Crucian carp,

682
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 3: can often survive actually four months over wintertime in the

683
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 3: low oxygen waters that are trapped beneath a frozen pond,

684
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 3: and amazingly, by the nineteen seventies, researchers had found that

685
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 3: these carp could still produce a high output of CO

686
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 3: two even when living in water that had very little

687
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 3: oxygen in it. In other words, you might say, in

688
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 3: a metabolic sense. They were breathing out when there was

689
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 3: almost nothing to breathe in, So how would that be possible?

690
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 3: Weber points to a fascinating discovery specifically in goldfish in

691
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 3: the year nineteen eighty, published by two researchers named Eric

692
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 3: Showbridge and Peter Hochochka. They found that the goldfish quote

693
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 3: tolerates a prolonged, normally lethal lack of oxygen by using

694
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 3: large glycogen stores to generate ethanol as a byproduct of

695
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 3: energy metabolism. So, ethanol is alcohol. It's the normal, regular

696
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 3: kind of alcohol, the kind you're probably most familiar with,

697
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 3: the kind that's in beer, wine and whiskey. So what

698
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 3: does producing alcohol in the body have to do with

699
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 3: b being able to survive without oxygen? I'll explain so again,

700
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 3: all vertebrate animals normally rely on oxygen for the chemical

701
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 3: reactions that drive metabolism, which allow our cells to keep living.

702
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 3: So the simplified version of this reaction is oxygen combines

703
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 3: with the carbohydrate glucose, which we ultimately get from food,

704
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 3: providing energy for cells in the form of the compounded

705
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 3: adenozine triphosphate or ATP, and then this reaction so it

706
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 3: produces the ATP that the cells need, and it releases

707
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 3: the byproduct of carbon dioxide and water. Our bodies purge

708
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 3: excess carbon dioxide by exhaling, and this is the normal

709
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 3: process that we use when oxygen is plentiful. When our

710
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 3: cells are deprived of oxygen, they fall back on a

711
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 3: secondary process called anaerobic respiration respiration without oxygen. Under this process,

712
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,240
Speaker 3: our cells still break down glucose and turn it into

713
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 3: cellular energy, but they do so with much less efficiency,

714
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 3: so there's less energy output and they spit out a

715
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 3: product called lactic acid. Anaerobic respiration only works as a

716
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 3: temporary stop gap in times of need, most often during

717
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 3: extreme physical exertion. Now, under normal circumstances, a bit of

718
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 3: lactic acid build up in the body is okay if

719
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 3: you can get the oxygen you need, because over time

720
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 3: the liver can convert the lactic acid back into glucose.

721
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 3: But if you're not able to get enough rest and oxygen,

722
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 3: the unrelieved buildup of lactic acid leads to a condition

723
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 3: again known as lactic acidosis, in which the body's overall

724
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,399
Speaker 3: pH becomes too low, and this can cause all kinds

725
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 3: of systemic problems and eventually, if bad enough, it can

726
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 3: cause death. So anaerobic respiration can only be a temporary

727
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 3: band aid to meet short term energy needs. But goldfish

728
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 3: and close relatives like the Krucian carp have an amazing

729
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 3: adaptation for making anaerobic respiration more tolerable in the long term.

730
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 3: And that adaptation is their bodies have evolved a process

731
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 3: for making the waste product of oxygen free respiration ethanol

732
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 3: instead of lactic acid. So these fish are fermenting alcohol

733
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 3: in their muscles. Oh wow. Yeah, So the alcohol produced

734
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 3: by anaerobic respiration and carp is purged from the fish

735
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 3: into the surrounding water through the gills. But that doesn't

736
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 3: mean there's no build up. And according to what I

737
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 3: was reading, goldfish that spin to winter season frozen under

738
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 3: ice that they're going to be swimming or floating at

739
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 3: least in very low oxygen waters, and they might have

740
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 3: a rather high blood alcohol concentration, so they survive the

741
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 3: winter but spend most of the time in a sense drunk.

742
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 2: Okay, all right.

743
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 3: Weber describes how researchers discovered that in these goldfish, tissues

744
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 3: all over the body, including crucial organs like the brain

745
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 3: and the heart rely on forms of anaerobic respiration. When necessary,

746
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 3: the brain and the heart use what's called a classic glycolysis,

747
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 3: and they do produce these negative byproducts. But like excess

748
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 3: lactic acid or lactate from the brain and heart and

749
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 3: other tissues is transported to the muscles, where they thought

750
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 3: it was for further transformed into alcohol and CO two.

751
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 3: And then so the body transports the excess alcohol to

752
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 3: the gills where it gets essentially breathed out into the water.

753
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 3: You might think, which is funny, because this is a

754
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 3: new variation on like beer breath. Is literally the way

755
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 3: that the body is purging. The byproduct of its respiration

756
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 3: is spitting alcohol out into the water. And Weber wrights

757
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 3: a funny observation tied in with unrelated psychology research in

758
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 3: the nineteen sixties and seventies. I'm just going to read

759
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 3: from Weber here quote. Interestingly, psychologists studying the effects of

760
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 3: alcohol on behavior had been using the goldfish as a

761
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 3: model vertebrate for years before this discovery. They had noticed

762
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 3: that it equilibrates ethanol and bourbon particularly quickly between the

763
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 3: external medium medium and the central nervous system, so it like,

764
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 3: you know, it distributes it throughout the tissues pretty quickly.

765
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 3: Resuming the quote, this characteristic had conveniently eliminated the need

766
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 3: for invasive measurements of alcohol levels directly within the brain

767
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 3: of the tested animals. So does that make sense? Like,

768
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 3: because the goldfish equilibrate here is the term they use.

769
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 3: It's like they could by controlling the amount of alcohol

770
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 3: in the medium, they could pretty finely tune the amount

771
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 3: of alcohol in the goldfish.

772
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, see what you're saying.

773
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. Also funny that when you test the effects of

774
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 3: a human drug like alcohol and a wild animal, you

775
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 3: just kind of assume that the wild animal is like

776
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 3: a pristine laboratory in itself, Like, there's no reason to

777
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 3: believe a goldfish would be an experienced drinker. But in

778
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 3: a way it sort of is. It's not a drinker,

779
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 3: but a native participant in alcohol culture, a brewery unto itself.

780
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 2: Wow, that is impressive. And again you just you would

781
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 2: normally expect this of the common, even boring goldfish that

782
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 2: it is, you know, an evolve career drinker there in

783
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:47,439
Speaker 2: its little tank.

784
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 3: So Weber describes an account of the original research by

785
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 3: Showbridge and Hochashka where they were testing goldfish in oxygen

786
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 3: deprived water tanks, and at one point, after the fish

787
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 3: had been in the tanks, I think it says for

788
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 3: twelve hours, Showbridge lean leaned over the tank and sniffed

789
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:12,280
Speaker 3: the water and said, there is booze in here, which

790
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 3: makes me wonder has anybody ever tried to operate a

791
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:19,720
Speaker 3: distillery based on the workhorse organism of goldfish instead of yeast,

792
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 3: Like that would not be efficient at all. Yeast are

793
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 3: much more efficient at producing alcohol. But it would be

794
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 3: a good gimmick, wouldn't it.

795
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 2: You know? Yeah, yeah, I don't don't know how that

796
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 2: would affect the taste. Maybe this is just my mind

797
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 2: playing with the idea of fish swimming and future drinking alcohol.

798
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,879
Speaker 3: But I don't know, well, I don't know enough about

799
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 3: the distilling process actually, Like, so is the alcohol distilled

800
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 3: from to what extent our flavors from the original fermentation

801
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 3: medium brought through the distilling process, or is that something

802
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 3: that needs to be added back in in some way?

803
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 3: I don't actually.

804
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 2: Don't know, but but you know, just the memories serves

805
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 2: there are certain either types or brands of beer that

806
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 2: have some sort of a fish product tied up in

807
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 2: the process.

808
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 3: Right, really, Oh, I didn't know that.

809
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 2: I believe that's right. If I'm really wrong on that,

810
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:17,439
Speaker 2: we'll take this out. But if I'm remembering correctly, there's

811
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 2: at least some types of beer that are made with

812
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 2: some sort of a fish product.

813
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, but I assume that would be like a

814
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 3: flavoring of some kind, not that the alcohol in the beer.

815
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 3: Guy is probably still coming from yeast. Right, Okay, we

816
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 3: just looked it up. There is a fish product used

817
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 3: in beers, but I was correct that it is not

818
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 3: the fish or not the source of alcohol in any

819
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 3: beer that we know of. It's not the alcohol. It's

820
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 3: like an additive used for something about the color or.

821
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 2: Clarity, yeah, clarifying the beer.

822
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 3: So anyway, I wanted to note one more development about

823
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 3: the history of research on the ethanol production in goldfish.

824
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:58,720
Speaker 3: There was a study in twenty seventeen that probed deeper

825
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 3: into the details of oxyatolerance in goldfish and crusion carp.

826
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 3: It was called extreme noxyatolerance incrusion carp and goldfish through

827
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 3: neofunctionalization of duplicated genes, creating a new ethanol producing pyrivate

828
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 3: decarboxalase pathway. This was by Figurnis at all published in

829
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 3: the Nature portfolio journal Scientific Reports, and the author is

830
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 3: begin by flagging the same things that we just talked

831
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 3: about that fish in the genus Carassius, such as the

832
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 3: crusion carp in the goldfish, can survive prolonged periods without

833
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 3: oxygen by using a metabolic pathway that results in the

834
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 3: end product of not lactic acid but alcohol, which is

835
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 3: easy to purge through the gills. And the question is

836
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 3: chemically and genetically how do they do that? I'm going

837
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,439
Speaker 3: to read from the results portion of the abstract here

838
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,280
Speaker 3: quote here we show that this has been made possible

839
00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 3: by the evolution of a pyrivate decarboxalase analogous to that

840
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 3: in Brewers yeast and the first described invertebrates, in addition

841
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 3: to a specialized alcohol dehydrogenase. Whole genome duplication events have

842
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 3: provided additional gene copies of the pyrivate dehydrogenase multi enzyme

843
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 3: complex that have evolved into a pyrivate decarboxylase, while other

844
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 3: copies retained the essential function of the parent enzymes. We

845
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 3: reveal the key molecular substitution in duplicated pyrivate dehydrogenase genes

846
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 3: that underpins one of the most extreme hypoxic survival strategies

847
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 3: among vertebrates, and that is highly deleterious to humans. So

848
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 3: the gist of the finding is that these carp are

849
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 3: able to produce ethanol as the output of their cellular

850
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 3: respiration or metabolism because their muscles have these special metabolic

851
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 3: proteins that are activated in the absence of oxide. And

852
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 3: this adaptation, they speculate, may have come sometime around eight

853
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 3: million years ago, and they don't know that for sure,

854
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 3: but they think it happened possibly around that time when

855
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 3: an ancestor of the goldfish and the Crucian carp underwent

856
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 3: a type of evolutionary accident called a whole genome duplication event. Essentially,

857
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 3: that's when an organism's genetic information makes an entire copy

858
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 3: of itself and then is passed on, so the genome doubles,

859
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 3: the genetic information doubles, and this allowed the formation of

860
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 3: parallel pathways for metabolism to evolve, and one of the

861
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 3: two pathways created similar enzymes to those that brewers yeast

862
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 3: used to convert carbohydrates into ethanol, and so I was

863
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 3: reading some media about this and one of the authors

864
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 3: of this study, Michael Brenbrink, who's an evolutionary physiologist at

865
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,720
Speaker 3: the University of Liverpool, was quoted in a press release

866
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 3: that accompanied the paper saying quote, during their time in

867
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 3: oxygen free water in ice covered ponds, which can last

868
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 3: for several months in their Northern European habitat, blood alcohol

869
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 3: concentrations in krusion carp can reach more than fifty milligrams

870
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 3: per one hundred milliliters, which is above the drink drive

871
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 3: limit in these countries. However, this is still a much

872
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 3: better situation than filling up with lactic acid, which is

873
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 3: the metabolic end product for other vertebrates including humans, when

874
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 3: devoid of oxygen. So the fish, it's you know, it's

875
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,360
Speaker 3: not biologically good for the fish to get drunk, but

876
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 3: it's better than it's better than the alternative, better than

877
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 3: the lactic acid.

878
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 2: And to be clear, I think in no European country

879
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 2: that I'm aware of is a fish legally allowed to

880
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 2: drive an automobile.

881
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 3: So I don't know, I haven't surveyed the law.

882
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 2: Drunk or not know they are not allowed to drive automobiles.

883
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 3: We should, we should invite the legal department into this

884
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 3: discussion you can see if they can advise. But anyway,

885
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 3: I thought that was really interesting, especially in that you

886
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 3: get a sort of convergent evolution in a way like

887
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 3: that these fish are arriving at some of the same

888
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 3: enzymatic processes that actually a fungus uses that Brewers used

889
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 3: to uses to make to you know, process sugars and

890
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 3: make ethanol. That the fish arrived essentially at the same

891
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 3: enzymatic pathway or a very similar one.

892
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's quite a superpower. And and again, you know,

893
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 2: the toughness of these organisms is key as well to

894
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 2: their domestication. Like human domestication is quite a process, and

895
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 2: it certainly it is certainly beneficial to the organism involved

896
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 2: if it is tough enough to survive that domestication. You know,

897
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 2: the creatures that have been domesticated tend to be pretty

898
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 2: pretty robust, at least in the beginning, until they've turned

899
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 2: completely into pugs or what have you. Pugs are tough

900
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 2: in their own way. I don't want to be too

901
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 2: hard on tugs. Yeah, they've survived. Just look at them.

902
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 2: They've been through a lot that they're still here.

903
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:14,800
Speaker 3: Okay, does that wrap things up for part one.

904
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 2: Yes, but we'll be back in part two. We're going

905
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 2: to get more into the Koi fish properly. We may

906
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 2: come back with some additional information about the goldfish that

907
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 2: we didn't have time for here. But yeah, we'll be

908
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,320
Speaker 2: back in part two. And in the meantime, go ahead

909
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 2: and write in. We'd love to hear from you. By

910
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 2: the time this comes out, we will have already recorded

911
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 2: part two. But if nothing else, this is something we

912
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 2: can get into in further episodes of Listener Mail. It's right,

913
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 2: all right. Well, just a reminder to everyone out there

914
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 2: that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science

915
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,839
Speaker 2: and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

916
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 2: Those are the main fish tanks. We have a smaller

917
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 2: fish tank on Wednesday for short form episodes, and then

918
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,359
Speaker 2: we have a we have a different sort of fish

919
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 2: tank on Fridays. That's where Weird House Cinema lives. That's

920
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 2: our time to just set aside most serious concerns, just

921
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 2: talk about a weird movie.

922
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 3: That's the day we look in the fish tank with

923
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 3: that that fish that mister Burns created.

924
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:11,720
Speaker 2: Yeah it's the three Eyes.

925
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 3: Yes, all right, huge, Thanks as always to our excellent

926
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 3: audio producer JJ Posway. If you would like to get

927
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,880
Speaker 3: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or

928
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 3: any other one, if you would like to suggest a

929
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 3: topic for us to cover in the future, or if

930
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 3: you would just like to say hi, get in touch,

931
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 3: you know, talk to us about whatever. You can email

932
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 3: us at contact at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

933
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

934
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

935
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

936
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,520
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