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Speaker 1: M Nowadays, we have artists, we have writers, we have musicians.

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Speaker 1: In those days, they probably had what we could see

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Speaker 1: as artists, writers, musicians, but they're not writers. They're weaving

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Speaker 1: stories with their voice and they were probably making music

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Speaker 1: where we do have them staying in place. That's when

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Speaker 1: you know we start to see the other kinds of

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Speaker 1: artifacts that are not just used for slaughtering thirty two animals.

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Speaker 1: On this episode of the Bear Grease Podcast, we'll be

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Speaker 1: talking more about the Fulsome archaeological site with Steve Ronnella

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Speaker 1: and Dr David Meltzer. We're gonna learn what these ancient

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Speaker 1: hunters did with the meat, how they likely lived, and

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Speaker 1: right at the end, we'll talk about the controversy the

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Speaker 1: Fulsome site stirred up with those that believe the Bible.

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Speaker 1: We'll even talk a bit about the arrival of man

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Speaker 1: on planet Earth, and will be continuing to hack away

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Speaker 1: at the question of why I any of this is

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Speaker 1: important or relevant. The story is robust, the drama is thick,

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Speaker 1: and you could cut the suspense with a Fulsome stone point.

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Speaker 1: You're not gonna want to miss this one. Instead of

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Speaker 1: George mcjunkin having said someone's got to come look at

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Speaker 1: this right. He had just found some stuff and periodically

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Speaker 1: went back and dug around the shovel and put the

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Speaker 1: point in the coffee can. If that had happened, then

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Speaker 1: we'd still think that humans have been here for three

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Speaker 1: thousand years. My name is Clay Nukelem and this is

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Speaker 1: the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant,

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Speaker 1: search for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell

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Speaker 1: the story of Americans who lived their lives close to

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Speaker 1: the land. Presented by f HF Gear, American made purpose

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Speaker 1: built hunting and fishing gear. It's designed to be as

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Speaker 1: rugged as the places we explore. This is Steve Ronnella

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Speaker 1: talking about the fulsome site of the more than a

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Speaker 1: handful of significant anthropological sites that I visited in my

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Speaker 1: in my wanderings. Um, that one is one that's just

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Speaker 1: easy to visualize. I went to the Lindenmeyer site and

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Speaker 1: you and you go there and you're like, you can

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Speaker 1: get it, but you don't totally get it. Um. I

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Speaker 1: went to the Clovis type site, which is called black

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Speaker 1: Water Draw. You go look at black Water Draw and

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Speaker 1: you get it, but you don't. You can't really get it.

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Speaker 1: Wild Horse Arroyo and the Fulsome site. Like you go there, man,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. It's just something about it. You can

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Speaker 1: just picture it. You can picture it, everything about it,

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Speaker 1: how they did, what they did. It's just it's one.

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Speaker 1: It's one of those great locations to visit. This is

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Speaker 1: the third part in our series on the Fulsome archaeological site.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get another layer of info from Dr

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Speaker 1: David Meltzer about these ancient people. After this one will

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Speaker 1: have completed seventy five percent of our journey towards getting

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Speaker 1: a layman's PhD on Fulsome. But for those just jumping in,

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Speaker 1: here's the lowdown. In nineteen o eight, too freed slave

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Speaker 1: named George mcjunkin found some peculiar bison bones in in

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Speaker 1: Arroyo in northeast New Mexico. He tried to get some

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Speaker 1: folks to come check it out, but they didn't come

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Speaker 1: until after his death in nineteen The leading archaeologists in

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Speaker 1: the country would proclaim the site the most important in

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Speaker 1: North American history at the time. We talked about George

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Speaker 1: mcjunkin in Part one. In Part two, we talked about

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Speaker 1: the nuts and bolts of the Fulsome site. And how

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Speaker 1: they unearthed the remains of thirty two bison antiquis a

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Speaker 1: relic form of ice age bison no longer here. But

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Speaker 1: the real kicker was they found around twenty stone projectile

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Speaker 1: points in the bone pile, giving us undisputable evidence that

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Speaker 1: they were killed by humans, thus proving human antiquity in

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Speaker 1: the America's was much older than we thought. And like

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Speaker 1: icing on a cake, the stone points were of a

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Speaker 1: style that had never been documented. They were a unique

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Speaker 1: fluted technology that will become known as foalsome points. These

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Speaker 1: fulsome hunters weren't cartoon cave men. These were human beings

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Speaker 1: with the same cognition, desires, and rudimentary needs as us.

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Speaker 1: In these people experienced pain and discomfort, emotional highs and

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Speaker 1: lows from relationships, disappointment and failed dreams, hope in what

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Speaker 1: the next month might bring for their family. I don't

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Speaker 1: have to tell you to do this, but put yourself

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Speaker 1: in the shoes of the fulsome people. Imagine the cold,

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Speaker 1: wearing clothes made of animal skin. Imagine no knowledge of

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Speaker 1: the world beyond what you can see. Imagine being a

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Speaker 1: pleistocene human because the life that you live is a

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Speaker 1: very rare human experience to put the fulsome people in

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Speaker 1: our lives into contexts do on these numbers. It's estimated

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Speaker 1: that a hundred and seventeen billion Homo sapiens have lived

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Speaker 1: on planet Earth since the dawn of time. By the

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Speaker 1: year one thousand, there were three hundred thousand people on

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Speaker 1: the Earth. By sixteen fifty, roughly fifty million lived here.

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Speaker 1: By the year eighteen hundred, there were one billion. In

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Speaker 1: one we have a population of seven point eight billion.

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Speaker 1: The population of the Earth today represents about seven percent

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Speaker 1: of the humans that have ever lived. It's hard to

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Speaker 1: make sense of these numbers, but we can easily say

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Speaker 1: that most humans that have lived have lived much different

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Speaker 1: lives than us. No demographic data exists for of human history.

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Speaker 1: I got all these numbers from an article on p

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Speaker 1: RB dot org called how many people have ever lived

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Speaker 1: on the Earth. It's pretty interesting, But what are the

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Speaker 1: implications of a species doing stuff way different than we've

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Speaker 1: ever done? What are the implications of being trapped in

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Speaker 1: time and thinking that our lives are normal. That's exactly

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Speaker 1: why looking back into the lives of these fulsome hunters

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Speaker 1: has value. On the last podcast, we heard from Steve

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Speaker 1: Ronella of meat eater, and he helped walk us through

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Speaker 1: the bison kill. He and Dr Meltzer believed that the

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Speaker 1: bison were herded into a box canyon where they were

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Speaker 1: met with a quote rain of spears. But Steve has

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Speaker 1: another unanswered question, and hey, I can't say this with

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Speaker 1: enough certainty. If you haven't listened to the first two podcasts,

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Speaker 1: go back and listen to them in order. Here Steve

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Speaker 1: jumping right in with some more unanswered questions. Here's some

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Speaker 1: things we know that they were dealing with an animal

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Speaker 1: that was they could manipulate. They hauled meat away. They

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Speaker 1: hauled some meat away on the bone. They took the

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Speaker 1: tails somewhere, probably the tail stayed with the hide, and

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Speaker 1: they took the hides away because the tailbones aren't there.

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Speaker 1: Here's the thing that kills me. They had that many

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Speaker 1: animals on the ground, it had to have been days

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Speaker 1: worth work. But they can't find where they slept. Somewhere

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Speaker 1: around there within a couple hundred yards has to be

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Speaker 1: the coolest place on the planet. If they had been

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Speaker 1: well preserved, was where they slept and butchered all that

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Speaker 1: stuff and cook stuff. Well, let me ask you a

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Speaker 1: question about like finding their camp site. So when I

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Speaker 1: was at the Falsome site, I was struck by how

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Speaker 1: small it was. It's not like they came in there

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Speaker 1: with you know, big caterpillar cranes and started, you know,

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Speaker 1: just cleared out four or five acres or ground. And

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Speaker 1: I mean the whole fulsome site that they actually excavated

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Speaker 1: can't be more than sixty seven the feet by sixty

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Speaker 1: seventy ft. So it's just this square. And now granted

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Speaker 1: they took that square and they dug out every single

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Speaker 1: grain of sand and dirt from the surface to like

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Speaker 1: ten ft down, I mean essentially, so, but you gotta

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Speaker 1: remember there was there was the two digs. The first

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Speaker 1: guys went in there with a wrecking ball in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenties. Ye later people went in there. Meltzer went

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Speaker 1: in there. Let's be honest, he went in there in

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Speaker 1: a way that in a hundred years will probably regarded

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Speaker 1: as that he went in there like a wrecking ball.

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Speaker 1: Part of the restraint of modern day archaeologist anthropologists is

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Speaker 1: to leave some of that stuff intact, because you just

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Speaker 1: know that through technological progression, the same way that when

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Speaker 1: those guys dug into twenties, they were looking for they

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Speaker 1: wanted big bones, and they wanted stone tools, and they

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Speaker 1: were there just washing stuff away, all the seeds and

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Speaker 1: pollen in small flakes and things that maybe like little

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Speaker 1: some ability to extract DNA from other contemporaneous creatures that

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Speaker 1: might have been associated just gone right. You can imagine

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Speaker 1: some future in which someone could go in and tell

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Speaker 1: you a lot more. They'd be like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: maybe like it was this temperature that day, there were

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Speaker 1: fires burning somewhere nearby. There there there's evidence of a

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Speaker 1: mixture of male and female humans based on dander, you

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Speaker 1: know who knows. But in they weren't gonna imagine radio

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Speaker 1: carbon dating. Yeah, if you just said to a guy,

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Speaker 1: you know what, hang tight on that, because before long

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Speaker 1: you'll tell you the exact date this happened, he'd been like,

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Speaker 1: give me a break. I mean, basically, we think we're

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Speaker 1: so technologically advanced in one but we are going off

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Speaker 1: of just hints. I mean, some cowboy back in you know,

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Speaker 1: nineteen o eight randomly saw a bone sticking out of

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Speaker 1: a bank, went and pulled a bone, and here we

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Speaker 1: have the falsome site. And now we're banking almost we're

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Speaker 1: banking so much off the seemingly coincidental find by this cowboy,

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Speaker 1: and in that arroyo's channel moves all the time. When

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Speaker 1: I went there, I went in the new channel which

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Speaker 1: is over Yonder Aways and now the channels off in

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Speaker 1: a different direction now, and I was over in the

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Speaker 1: other new channel off Yonder that's been cut since mcjunkin.

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Speaker 1: Guess what I found? It killed me. I found a

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Speaker 1: big bone sticking out of the wall. And I was with,

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Speaker 1: you're down there as with an archaeologist. This bone is

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Speaker 1: twelve feet from the top of the ground. I told

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Speaker 1: you the story before, and there was every part of

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Speaker 1: me wanted to pluck that bone out of there. And

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Speaker 1: that guy was with the state archaeologist. I was with

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Speaker 1: having none of it. He took some photos of this

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Speaker 1: isn't in the Runella collection. He took some photos of it.

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Speaker 1: He took a GPS way point of it. But I

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Speaker 1: was like, how can you resist? He's a pro. Did

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Speaker 1: they ever go back? I don't know. I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a little bit of restraint place. You

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Speaker 1: and I both like arrowheads a lot. The argument about

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Speaker 1: picking up junk on the ground, as hard as it

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Speaker 1: is not to pick it up is you never know

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Speaker 1: that you might be standing on the next fulsome site

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Speaker 1: and you just ruined it that instead of George mcjunkin

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Speaker 1: having said someone's got to come look at this, right,

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Speaker 1: he had just found some stuff and the periodically went

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Speaker 1: back and dug around the shovel and hauled it off

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Speaker 1: and put in a put the point in the coffee can,

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Speaker 1: and then gave it to his grandkid in Illinois. Right,

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Speaker 1: And that would have turned into what it turned in.

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Speaker 1: And we still think if that had happened, then we'd

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Speaker 1: still think that humans have been here for three thousand years.

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Speaker 1: Steve brought up two interesting points that we'll talk about later,

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Speaker 1: radio carbon dating and the cultural effects of blowing up

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Speaker 1: our understanding of human antiquity. How's that for foreshadowing. But

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Speaker 1: first I want to talk to the fulsome authority, Dr

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Speaker 1: David Meltzer of SMU. We're gonna jump right in after

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Speaker 1: the kill and asked the question of what did they

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Speaker 1: do with the meat? I want to talk about this

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Speaker 1: idea of what we now call gourmet butchering when they

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Speaker 1: essentially took the prime cuts. And I think it's kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting because we have this idea that Paleo Indians

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Speaker 1: or even Native Americans would have used every scrap and

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Speaker 1: every possible piece of meat and bone for their subsistence.

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Speaker 1: But these people didn't have refrigeration, they didn't have preservation

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Speaker 1: of or they didn't have modern preservation techniques for meat.

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Speaker 1: So talk to me about the evidence that we have

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Speaker 1: and what they used, what they took with them, what

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Speaker 1: they preferred, how they did it. We actually need to

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Speaker 1: clarify this a little bit in the sense that gourmet

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Speaker 1: butchering it's a term that is used to describe the

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Speaker 1: fact that they're basically taking all the good cuts and

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Speaker 1: moving on. And that's certainly true of a lot of

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Speaker 1: fulsome sites, but not all sites from this time period.

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Speaker 1: If you're there, if you're hunting in the summer, your

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Speaker 1: point is well taken. There's not a whole lot that

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Speaker 1: you can preserve. Um you can you can butcher the

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Speaker 1: meat hanging out really quickly, hope it dries and the

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Speaker 1: blowflies don't get into it, right, or if you're living

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Speaker 1: on the northern plains, yeah, actually you can make a

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Speaker 1: kill and if you're there through the winter, you can

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Speaker 1: actually preserve it. We have some fulsome sites where people overwintered,

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Speaker 1: and in those instances they are using everything alright because

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Speaker 1: it was cold, just because it was cold, and if

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Speaker 1: you're snowed in, you don't have a lot of options

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Speaker 1: in terms of game that's wandering around or your ability

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Speaker 1: to go after them. In fact, you know what's the

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Speaker 1: old phrase they used to use in Chicago and the

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Speaker 1: meat packing plants use everything from the squeak to the tail. Right,

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Speaker 1: we have gourmet butchering at the Fulsome site proper and

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Speaker 1: at a number of other fulsome sites where we had

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Speaker 1: people on the move in the fall. They were going

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Speaker 1: someplace to hunker down for the winter, and that tells

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Speaker 1: us they were on the move absolutely absolutely, because they're

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Speaker 1: only taking the good cuts. You know, had they had

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Speaker 1: they stayed in that spot, we probably would have seen

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Speaker 1: a very different record because had they stayed in that spot,

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Speaker 1: had winter set in and they had these thirty two animals,

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Speaker 1: you can be pretty darn sure that by January they're

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Speaker 1: cracking open the towbones and sucking out the marrow, because

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Speaker 1: in fact, we see that at other fulsome period sites

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Speaker 1: where people are hunkered down, so they're using absolutely everything.

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Speaker 1: This idea of gourmet butchering is a polite way of

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Speaker 1: saying they left a bunch of usable meat. Today, this

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Speaker 1: would be illegal under our modern wanton waste laws. This

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Speaker 1: is not a slight against these people at all. That

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Speaker 1: would be a form of historical revision, applying today's value

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Speaker 1: system out of context. But it's an interesting thought. If

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Speaker 1: you remember, in the Boon series, Old dB reported that

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Speaker 1: while he was tracking the Indians that had kidnapped his

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Speaker 1: daughter Jemima, he found a quote, writhing snake that the

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Speaker 1: Indians had killed and not used. Secondly, they killed a

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Speaker 1: buffalo and only took the hump meat. Again, this is

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Speaker 1: not a slight against these people, but it does dismiss

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Speaker 1: the romantic idea that one hundred percent of the time

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Speaker 1: indigenous people used one of the commodities from the animals

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Speaker 1: they killed. Here's some more from Dr Mincer. So what

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Speaker 1: did they take at the full sum side? They took

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Speaker 1: the good stuff. So they took hump meat right from

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Speaker 1: the thoracic vertebrae, because the vertebrae are gone. Yeah, in

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Speaker 1: in a lot of cases, and in some cases it

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Speaker 1: looks as though they simply stripped out that big hump

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Speaker 1: meat and left the big thoracic vertebrae there, so they

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Speaker 1: would have deboned deboned it. In some cases it looks

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Speaker 1: as though they snapped off entire rib racks. We have

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Speaker 1: the ribs broken right at the head where it connects

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Speaker 1: up the spine, and it looks like they would just

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Speaker 1: grab a whole rib brack, snap it off and haul

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Speaker 1: that away. They took long bones, particularly the upper uh

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Speaker 1: limb bones bison bison drumsticks. I like to refer to them,

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Speaker 1: because those would be easy to transport, right, You just

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Speaker 1: kind of sling that on your shoulder and you go

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Speaker 1: for a hike with it. What do they leave behind?

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Speaker 1: They left behind heads, butts, and feet. We also know

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Speaker 1: that they did eat the tongues out of them. And

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Speaker 1: we know that because of cut marks on the jaws, yes,

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Speaker 1: where the tongue attachment was, and and and we we

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Speaker 1: know that this is a delicacy. Honestly, it's not for me.

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Speaker 1: I I don't do tongue, but certainly um in documented

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Speaker 1: historic times and still today, tongue is considered a delicacy

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Speaker 1: of bison and raw tongue. Dr Meltzer has in his

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Speaker 1: lab at s Mu the jawbone found at Fulsome that

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Speaker 1: has the cut marks from a stone point pretty wild.

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Speaker 1: If you've never had tongue, it's nothing more than a

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Speaker 1: fine grained muscle. Once you remove the outer tongue skin,

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Speaker 1: it's the most accessible chunk of meat on an animal

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Speaker 1: that doesn't require skinning, back, hide, and hair. It would

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Speaker 1: kind of be like I have been the fries out

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Speaker 1: of a fast food bag and eating them before you

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Speaker 1: knocked down your burger. But let's get into some bigger questions.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of meat. I mean, I think about

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Speaker 1: what it takes the process a single animal that we

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Speaker 1: would kill in modern times, with modern conveniences and modern transportation.

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Speaker 1: We've got side by sides, we've got mules and horses,

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Speaker 1: we've got trucks. I can't imagine carrying away that much meat.

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Speaker 1: So my next question is like, who were these people

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Speaker 1: and what were they doing? We actually know where they've been.

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Speaker 1: We think we know where they were headed, and we

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Speaker 1: know the time of years, so we can conjure a story,

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Speaker 1: an inference, a narrative. What we know. What we think

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Speaker 1: we know is that they've been on the Texas Panhandle.

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Speaker 1: And we think we know that based on the types

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Speaker 1: of stone that was used to manufacture their protective point.

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Speaker 1: How far would that be? Oh, we're talking hundreds of kilometers?

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Speaker 1: Is it that far? Oh? Yeah, alright. So what we

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Speaker 1: know is that, or what we infer, is that these

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Speaker 1: folks had most recently been in the Texas Panhandle area,

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Speaker 1: in the area around Amarillo, where they obtained what's known

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Speaker 1: as alibates agatized dolomite. We just call it churt and

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Speaker 1: to Covist Church. The distance is just straight line distances

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Speaker 1: from there to Folsome are on the order literally of

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Speaker 1: hundreds of kilometers Amarillo, the alibate sources about two hundred

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Speaker 1: and sixty kilometers away. Um. The source for to Covis

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Speaker 1: is almost in three seventy kilometers. It's like a hundred

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Speaker 1: fifty miles. Absolutely absolutely, And the reason we think that

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Speaker 1: they were there most recently before they got to Folsom

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Speaker 1: is that that's the dominant material at the site. We

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Speaker 1: have other material that they had actually collected in far

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Speaker 1: northeastern Colorado, and what you're seeing there is their cycle

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Speaker 1: and so far as we can infer it based on

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Speaker 1: the projectile points that we found, because we found points

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Speaker 1: that were made out of stone from each of those

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Speaker 1: three areas and some points between the home range of

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Speaker 1: a wild animal. There you go, and if you look

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Speaker 1: at a map, all of those river systems, like the

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Speaker 1: Canadian River and its tributaries. If you're leaving and kind

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Speaker 1: of heading north northwest out of the Panhandle, a lot

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Speaker 1: of those drainages, they won't necessarily take you right to

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Speaker 1: the Folsom site, but they're going to take you into

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Speaker 1: the neighborhood, and there's a number of passes that go

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Speaker 1: through there. The most famous, of course, is Raton Pass,

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Speaker 1: where the Santa Fe Trail came through. But just north

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Speaker 1: of the Fulsom site is another pass known as Trinchera Pass.

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Speaker 1: It's not as well known as Raton Pass. But let's

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Speaker 1: say that you've moved out of the Panhandle of Texas,

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Speaker 1: You've headed sort of northwest out of that area. You

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Speaker 1: end up in the neighborhood. You're gonna have to get

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Speaker 1: through this sort of range of high basalt maces and

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Speaker 1: volcanic peaks, and you're heading for Trinchera Pass. You're going up,

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Speaker 1: going up, and you spot a small herd of bison,

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Speaker 1: you know, off in the distance. You send scouts kind

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Speaker 1: of around and they come back and they say, you

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Speaker 1: know what, there's a bottleneck. There's a pinch point on

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Speaker 1: this So from tren Cherra Pass you could see the

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Speaker 1: fullsom side. Can't quite see it, but if you were

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Speaker 1: headed there, as it happens, the full sum side is

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Speaker 1: what eight kilometers from the pass, and that's why I

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Speaker 1: think that's where they were headed. I say, so you

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Speaker 1: make the kill. And because it's September October whenever you

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Speaker 1: know plus or minus right, this is an area that

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Speaker 1: gets a lot of snow. You don't necessarily want to

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Speaker 1: be stuck there in the winter. It's higher elevation. It's

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Speaker 1: like it's seven it's seven thousand feet seven thousand. I

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Speaker 1: was actually quite wrong about an aspect of this narrative,

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Speaker 1: which I'm gonna tell you about in a second. My

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Speaker 1: original thinking, what, okay, so you make the kill, you

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Speaker 1: butcher the animals, you take all the good stuff, right,

358
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Speaker 1: You've done your gourmet butchering gig, and then you just

359
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Speaker 1: continue on throosin chair Pass, you drop down into southeastern Colorado,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you find someplace to overwinter. Here's the

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Speaker 1: part where I was wrong. It's always good to ad

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Speaker 1: bit those sorts of things. Keeps you honest. I thought,

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Speaker 1: there's no way you're gonna want to spend the winter

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Speaker 1: at seven thousand feet all invasion. It's just gonna be

365
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Speaker 1: too cold, too much snow, it's gonna be too miserable.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna find someplace lower down, protected valley, etcetera, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: Then I got invited by a colleague out in Gunnison, Colorado,

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Speaker 1: who said, hey, I've got a fulsome site here. Well,

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Speaker 1: as it turns out, that fulsome site is at about

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Speaker 1: eight thousand feet. It's in one of the coldest places

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Speaker 1: in North America, in the Gunnison Basin, and it was

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Speaker 1: occupied through the winter. So I was so here, I'm thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 1: these guys are gonna go to Florida, right, I'm exaggerating.

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Speaker 1: But no, as it turns out, these folks were pretty

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Speaker 1: darn adept at dealing with winter, as I wasn't. When

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Speaker 1: I was sort of originally sort of thinking about folsom

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Speaker 1: was that they had to ski dattle out of there. No, no,

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Speaker 1: I think what they were doing so they get there,

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Speaker 1: they make the kill. We know they've been in northeastern

380
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Speaker 1: Colorado before, so I think they used trin chair past

381
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Speaker 1: to get past that geological formation dropped down into southeastern Colorado.

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Speaker 1: Where they went from there, I don't know. And so

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Speaker 1: what I'm envisioning is that these folks were sort of

384
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Speaker 1: moving up and down the front range. They weren't necessarily

385
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Speaker 1: going deep into the mountains um. They were mostly exploiting

386
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Speaker 1: the environments that were on the edge of the mountains,

387
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Speaker 1: on the edge of the plains um And probably we're

388
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Speaker 1: making a pretty darn good living doing so. I just

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Speaker 1: can't get past the mystery of who these people were

390
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 1: and what their daily lives might have been like. They

391
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Speaker 1: are absolutely shrouded and uncrackable mystery. I've got more questions.

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Speaker 1: Do we know much about their social groups or do

393
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Speaker 1: we have any did these people at this time? Did

394
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Speaker 1: they did they make art? Did they have social hierarchy?

395
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Speaker 1: What do we know about the falsome people? Yeah? So

396
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Speaker 1: art definitely. The amount of artistic expression is hard to gauge.

397
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Speaker 1: And the reason is is that in some societies artistic

398
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Speaker 1: express ushian is material. So you've got groups that are

399
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Speaker 1: in Europe at this time that are painting spectacular paintings

400
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Speaker 1: on cave walls. But artistic expression can also be elaborate

401
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 1: stories and things told around the campfire. Nowadays, we have artists,

402
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: we have writers, we have musicians. In those days they

403
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: probably had what we could see as artists, writers, musicians,

404
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 1: but they're not writers. They're weaving stories with their voice, right,

405
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 1: and they were probably making music. We haven't found a

406
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Speaker 1: lot of musical instruments from this time. They were making

407
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 1: um material culture that was decorative. We didn't find any

408
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Speaker 1: of that at Falsome. I mean Falsome is. You know,

409
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Speaker 1: this is a hunting group. They're just it's just a

410
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 1: kill site. But where we do have them staying in place,

411
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Speaker 1: that's when you know, we start to see the other

412
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Speaker 1: kinds of artifacts that are not just used for slaughtering

413
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Speaker 1: thirty two animals. In terms of their social hierarchy or not,

414
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Speaker 1: we tend to think that these are egalitarian hunter gatherers.

415
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: Tell me what that means. So you know, you sort

416
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Speaker 1: of think about chieftains where you've got somebody who's in charge.

417
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Speaker 1: We don't think that that's that the society was necessarily

418
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Speaker 1: stratified in that manner. We start to see social stratification

419
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: haves and have nots much later in prehistory, and it's

420
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Speaker 1: often detected in burials, where you have individuals who get

421
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: buried with lots of grave goods, whereas individuals who get

422
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: buried maybe with a few tools that they use over

423
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Speaker 1: their lifetime. I want to read an excerpt from Ian

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Speaker 1: Tattersall's book Becoming Human. He's one of the world's leading

425
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: paleo anthropologist. Here's a passage from his book. Quote. All

426
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: of this, of course, begs the question of the origin

427
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: of modern human behaviors. As we've seen, we find dramatic

428
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 1: evidence for art, music, and symbol very early in the

429
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: Upper Paleolithic record in Europe, well over thirty thousand years ago,

430
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,719
Speaker 1: and symbolism lie is at the very heart of what

431
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: it means to be human, as I emphasize in the

432
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: next chapter, for if there is one single thing that

433
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: distinguishes humans from all other forms of life, living or extinct,

434
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: it is the capacity for symbolic thought, the ability to

435
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 1: generate complex mental symbols and to manipulate them into new combinations.

436
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 1: This is the very foundation of imagination and creativity, of

437
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: the unique ability of humans to create a world in

438
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: the mind and to recreate it in the real world

439
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: outside themselves. Other species may exploit the outside world with

440
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,959
Speaker 1: great efficiency, as we saw in the case of the chimpanzees,

441
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: but they still remain in essence passive subjects and observers

442
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: of that world. Even Neanderthals, remarkable as they may have been, were,

443
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: in all likelihood hardly more liberated from this condition. End

444
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: of quote. We didn't find art or symbolism at the

445
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: Fulsome side. It was just a random kill site. But

446
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: you don't have to stretch very far to infer that

447
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: people sophisticated enough to make Fulsome points likely had art

448
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 1: and music. When I think about early humans, I can't

449
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 1: get away from these early indicators that we weren't just

450
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: your average terrestrial mammal. The Fulsome site is one of

451
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 1: these early indicators. Tattersall said, quote, Humans in general are

452
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: and were slow moving creatures, and modern humans are incomparably

453
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: successful hunters because they exercise craft, guile, and unparalleled perception

454
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 1: of the cues offered by the outside world. Probably hunting

455
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: by guile, as we know it is a peculiar property

456
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: of our own species. End of quote. Stacking up these

457
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: bison was a really human thing to do. In Tattersall's book,

458
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 1: he talks about how humans arrival was unprecedented on the Earth,

459
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: and the major factor of this uniqueness is in our

460
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: ability for what he calls self reflective insight. Remember that phrase.

461
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: He said, quote the depth, complexity and biological importance of

462
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: human interpersonal relationships, which far exceed any other animal, would

463
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 1: be impossible without the capacity for self reflective insight. End

464
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: of quote. I guess my point is this, A bunch

465
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 1: of apes couldn't have killed thirty two bison with stone points,

466
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: butchered them and used the meat for an entire winter.

467
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: What I'm trying to say is we aren't apes. Though

468
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: from a merely biological standpoint, our bodies aren't much different,

469
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 1: but humans aren't just bodies. A Neanderthal could have told

470
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: you that humans had something very special that escalated quickly

471
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: to steer the ship in a slightly different direction. I

472
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 1: wanted to ask Dr Meltzer how these fulsome hunters would

473
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 1: be related to more modern tribes of Native Americans. Here's

474
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 1: what he said. Okay, it's very, very difficult to take

475
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: a modern day tribal unit and trace it back ten

476
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 1: thousand years because people move, people admix, groups split up,

477
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 1: groups come apart, Which is not to say that there

478
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: weren't tribal groups back then, and in fact, they're almost

479
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: certainly were. But remember too that these are people who

480
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: had been in the Americas or whose ancestors had first

481
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: arrived in the America's you know, maybe a few thousand

482
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 1: years earlier. And if we assume that the first people

483
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: who came into the America's, let's just say it was

484
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: a single group speaking a single language. Over time, as

485
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: the groups would disperse out across the Americas, they would

486
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: become isolated from one another. Initially you would get new

487
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: dialects emerging, and then you'd get separate languages emerging. But

488
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: if you're still early in the process, there's certainly going

489
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: to be far fewer language groups, far fewer tribal groups

490
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: than there would be ten thousand years later. Okay, so humans, basically,

491
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: I mean, we're social animals and we socially structure ourselves.

492
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: So would the groupings have looked like they do today

493
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: in modern times? Um hard to say, because it's impossible

494
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: to draw a nice clean lines between them. But would

495
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: they have banded together in groups of you know, twenty

496
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: five or occasionally get together, you know, several groups of

497
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: twenty five would get together in groups of a hundred

498
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: and you know, swap stories, marry off their kids to

499
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: one another almost certainly, right, they're highly mobile hunter gatherers,

500
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: and think about this too. They're on a landscape with

501
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: not a lot of other people, so it's obviously advantageous

502
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: to them to be able to maintain contact with these

503
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: other groups. You know, in those days, it made more

504
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: sense not to shoot first and ask questions later, because

505
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: it made more sense for the the health and welfare

506
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: and survival of your group to be able to meet

507
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: up of another group who maybe you haven't met before

508
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: but are probably distantly related. And even if they're not,

509
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: you tell stories to each other that create a relationship

510
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: and create an alliance. Because if you're out on a

511
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: landscape with not a lot of other people, it's really

512
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: helpful if you encounter another group and they say, you

513
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: know what if you go However, they measured time right,

514
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: if you go this many days or this many weeks

515
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: in that direction, you will find this hunter gatherers. It's

516
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: really striking mobile people know about a huge landscape. They

517
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: haven't necessarily been over that entire landscape. They've talked to

518
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: other people, and so in the early twentieth century anthropologists

519
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: working in the High Arctic would talk to native individuals

520
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: who could put together a map of hundreds of thousands

521
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: of square miles, and they hadn't actually done all that themselves,

522
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: but they listened very carefully to the people that they met,

523
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: who they had traveled. Where did you travel, what did

524
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: you see? Let me tell you where I've traveled and

525
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: what I've seen. I mean, look, this is survival knowledge, right.

526
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: You want to be able to know. Okay, I'm in

527
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,479
Speaker 1: a place I've never been before, but I've heard about it,

528
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: and I know that these kinds of things are available

529
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: if I keep going in that direction. I see that

530
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: mountain peak. You know, I was told we met somebody

531
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: years ago who told us about that mountain peak and

532
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: that if you go to the other side, there's gonna

533
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: be this really beautiful valley and you're gonna find game there.

534
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: Or you're in a small group of you know, there's

535
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: sort of a magic number twenty five. You know, these

536
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: these hunter gatherer groups, you know, plus or minus right,

537
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: and your kids get to be a marriageable age. Okay,

538
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: when you encounter another group, they've got kids of marriageable age. Hey,

539
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: Gus is advantageous. Yeah, you know, that's such an interesting

540
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: thing you're bringing up, because what it makes me think about.

541
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: I'm very interested, and I think the intrigue of trying

542
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: to understand who these people were is comparing them to

543
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: who we are today. I think about the social structure

544
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: and the things that they would have queued in on

545
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: that may be would have been lost inside of a

546
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: world where we don't get all our information from life

547
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: from talking and looking in the eyes of someone and

548
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: building a relationship with them. I mean, we get we

549
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: get our information from life for from our phones and

550
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: from books, which is a good thing. These are positive things.

551
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: But these people, the data point for their life in

552
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: so many ways would have been these personal relationships that

553
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: they had with people. It would have been wonderful to

554
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: sort of be a fly on the wall in all

555
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: those conversations because you would see that's there, that's their Internet,

556
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: that's the place to see in social network. The place

557
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: to see social network wasn't Facebook, it was just face.

558
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: You'll chuckle later with that hits the bottom. I wonder

559
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: if the fulsome Hunters had a comedian in the group.

560
00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: I want to dive into some serious science. My whole life.

561
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: I've heard the term carbon dating thrown around, and it

562
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: seems like we base a lot of what we know

563
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: about ancient time frames on it. In the scientific world,

564
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: it's believed to be rock solid science. But I've heard

565
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: a few murmurs of the validity of carbon dating. And

566
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,479
Speaker 1: I want to end the personal drama. Here's what I

567
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: asked Dr Meltzer, and hey, stick around if you get

568
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: bored on this part. At the end, we're gonna talk

569
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: about the Bible and the age of the Earth and

570
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: it's gonna get wild. Man, what a booby trap. Okay,

571
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take your word for this, and I'm gonna

572
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: base the rest of my life off of this answer.

573
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: No pressure is how certain are we that carbon dating?

574
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: It's like rock hard science. And that's a dumb question

575
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: because I think I know what you're gonna say. But

576
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: like in in fifty years, are my kids gonna be like, man,

577
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: they used to radio carbon date stuff? Boy, they were

578
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: way off. Oh No, it's good. It's solid and and

579
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: and it's been proven over and over again for the

580
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: last what are we up to now? Nifty two? Right,

581
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: We've had so many independent checks on this that every

582
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: time time and again we've been able to use and

583
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 1: demonstrate that radiocarbon is both reliable, which is to say,

584
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: if you do it again, are you're gonna get the

585
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: same answer? And valid, which is to say, is it

586
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: the right answer? And and mind you, when the technique

587
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: was first developed, what they did was they took things

588
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: of known historic age and they said, Okay, here's some

589
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: wood from an Egyptian tomb that we know from you know,

590
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: hieroglyphic records, and you know the Rosetta stone and all

591
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: that stuff is basically four thousand years old. You get

592
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: a radiocarbon date, it says it's thirty years old plus

593
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: or minus ND. So, yes, it's just been tests. I mean,

594
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: this is this is like, this is something that we

595
00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 1: know is pretty is solid. Okay, So doctor Meltzer and

596
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: the scientific community believe this is rock hard indisputable science.

597
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: And I can get behind that. But what is it?

598
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: Let's ask the doc. I think it's important for us

599
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: to have an understanding of radio carbon dating. It's just

600
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: stuff a brother should know. Talk to me about carbon dating.

601
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: So the way we know how old things are is

602
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: through radiocarbon dating. This is a process that was invented

603
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: in the very late nineteen forties, earned a Nobel Prize

604
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 1: to its inventor in nineteen sixty, Willard Libby. And what

605
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: Willard Libby figured out is that we know, of course,

606
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 1: that there's garden variety carbon, and that's carbon twelve. Libby's

607
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: insight was that there are other isotopes of carbon that

608
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: was known, and isotopes are basically unstable forms of these

609
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: these elements. Carbon fourteen is radiocarbon. So what Libby realized

610
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: was that in addition to all the carbon that's floating

611
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: around in the upper atmosphere, you've got nitrogen and you've

612
00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: got cosmic radiation that produces these neutrons. They hit the nine,

613
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:05,280
Speaker 1: rogen drives off a proton and it chemically becomes carbon.

614
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: It's got the same chemical structure as carbon, but it

615
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: weighs more carbon fourteen because it's got the atomic mass

616
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: of nitrogen. So you've now got carbon twelve, which is

617
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 1: the garden variety carbon, forming with oxygen to form C

618
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: O two. And you've now got this isotope, this slightly

619
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: heavier form of carbon, carbon fourteen joining together with oxygen

620
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: to form C O two. What do plants use for photosynthesis,

621
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: they use CEO two. Okay, they're ingesting c O two

622
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: as part of the photosynthesis process. Animals including us, eat plants,

623
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 1: and so we're absorbing both the standard amount of carbon

624
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: twelve that's out there, but a tiny, tiny fraction. I mean,

625
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: you're not radioactive. You've got radio carbon in you, but

626
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: you know you're not going to glow at night or

627
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 1: anything like that. You've got this form of carbon fourteen

628
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 1: in in an organism. When the organism dies, the carbon

629
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: fourteen is no longer being replenished and it starts to

630
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: decay back to carbon twelve, gives off a little beta mission,

631
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 1: changes the structure, and suddenly you've got plain old carbon.

632
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: That process of decay has what's known as a half life,

633
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: which means that every five thousand, seven hundred thirty years,

634
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: half of the radio carbon that was in a piece

635
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: of wood, an animal bone, any kind of organic thing

636
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: is now gone. Another five thousand, seven hundred and thirty years,

637
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: half of that is gone. So you measure the amount

638
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: of decay that's taking place in a nutshell. If you

639
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 1: measure the amount of decay taking place, you know how

640
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: long ago something was alive. We know with great accuracy

641
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: how long it takes for carbon fourteen to turn into

642
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: carbon twelve because of this half life nonsense. And remember

643
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 1: carbon fourteen is only in that form when it's active

644
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: and has interacted with the atmosphere. Okay, organic matter, which

645
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: is stuff that was once alive. This will be plants

646
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,280
Speaker 1: or animals. So a rock isn't organic matter. But plants

647
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: and animals have carbon in them, and when they're preserved

648
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: like the bison bones fulsome or seeds in a soil

649
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: deposit near the bones, their carbon gives us a timestamp

650
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: telling us when that thing was alive. However, maybe one

651
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: of the best quality assurances we have on carbon dating

652
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,399
Speaker 1: comes from us understanding how the dates can be messed up.

653
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: Here's what Dr Meltzer has to say about that. It's

654
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: remarkably accurate, but it's a statistical inference, and it's a

655
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: statistical measure. So naturally you have plus or minus okay

656
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: um and the plus or minuses can be plus or

657
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,919
Speaker 1: minus twenty years, plus or minus fifty years. Now, there's

658
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: a complication in radio carbon dating in that the amount

659
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: of C fourteen in the atmosphere over time has varied,

660
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: and it varies for a variety of reasons. Um So,

661
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: for example, changes in the Earth's magnetic field, changes in

662
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: the amount of cosmic radiation hitting the atmosphere, changes an

663
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: ocean circulation. Most of the world's C O two is

664
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 1: actually stored in the oceans, and so if ocean circulation

665
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: changes and it starts belching more C O two out

666
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: into the atmosphere, it's going to change the amount of

667
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: C fourteen. So at different points in the past you've

668
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: had more or less C fourteen than at other points

669
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: in the past. And more importantly, the fact that we

670
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: know where it's wrong and why it's wrong, and how

671
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: we calibrate it is further indication that we understand it.

672
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,919
Speaker 1: So let me give you two more examples of things

673
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: that screw up radio carbon dates, just to confirm that

674
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: we actually look for these kinds of things so that

675
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: we can adjust for these kinds of things. Industrial Revolution,

676
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 1: you start burning coal, what are you doing. You're dumping

677
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 1: huge amounts of dead carbon into the atmosphere. That's going

678
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: to change the relationship or the relative amount of C

679
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 1: fourteen to C twelve. So, yeah, if you date something

680
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 1: from the Industrial Revolution, the ages are going to be off.

681
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: Atomic bomb testing Okay, so I'm older than you. I

682
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: remember when did atmospheric bomb testing. This was actually something

683
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: that happened in the nineteen fifties when they were still

684
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: blowing up atomic bombs in the atmosphere. So when they

685
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: would make the sample to put it into the radiocarbon counter,

686
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 1: they create this this slurry sample and they literally walk

687
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: across the lab and dump it into the counter. Well,

688
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: what that was doing? What does it atomic bomb do?

689
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 1: It creates all manner of fresh new radiocarbon. So unlike

690
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 1: the Industrial Revolution, which is dumping old carbon, atomic bombs

691
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 1: are basically dumping new stuff. And so some of these

692
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 1: dates were coming, you know, fifty years into the future, right,

693
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 1: and then they realized, oh, we better make this a

694
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: closed system where this stuff is not being exposed to

695
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: the atmosphere. That's that's really interesting because errors if you

696
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: know where the air comes from, then then it can

697
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 1: can make your your whole system more solid. It makes

698
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: it much more robust, which is why when people say, well,

699
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 1: you know, it's just a radio carbon date, you can't

700
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,439
Speaker 1: trust it, And I said, oh, come now, context is king.

701
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: Here's Dr Meltzer explaining how fulsome fits into the bigger

702
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: picture of human history in the America's. Dr Meltzer walked

703
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 1: me through what we know of human history in the

704
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: new world in North and South America, the timelines and

705
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 1: kind of show us where Fulsome fit in sure in

706
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: the America's and we don't actually call it the new

707
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: world because by Ali people were here long before Europeans

708
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: showed up, you know, to them, it actually was a

709
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: new world. So one of the things about Folsome that

710
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: was absolutely critical was that Folsome established for the first

711
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: time in fifty years, a clear chronological anchor point for

712
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: the history of people in the America's because what Folsom

713
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: did was it showed that they'd come in the place

714
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: to scene. Within a few years after Fulsome, about six

715
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 1: years actually, additional work had shown at a site called

716
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: Clovis that people had been here slightly earlier than Folsome.

717
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: We now know the dates on Clovis are about thirteen

718
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: thousand or so calibrated years, about eleven thousand, five hundred

719
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: radio carbon years. And for a long time it was

720
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,479
Speaker 1: thought that Clovis were the first Americans, the first people

721
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 1: who came into what was then a truly new world,

722
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: and that stayed that way for the better part of

723
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: the twentieth century. But there were fines that were being

724
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: made in the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies nineteen eighties

725
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: that seemed to hint that there might be a older

726
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: than Clovis or a pre Clovis presence in the America's

727
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,879
Speaker 1: But it really wasn't until the late nineties that work

728
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: that was done by Tom delahay Um at then the

729
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: University of Kentucky now at Vanderbilt in South America at

730
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 1: a place called Monte Verde that showed that people were

731
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: in fact in the America's prior to Clovised times by

732
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: at least a thousand years. So if you think about

733
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 1: the prehistory of the Americas, it means that people were

734
00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:01,439
Speaker 1: probably here by around fourteen and a half thousand years ago,

735
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,359
Speaker 1: and that's calibrated years. But if you think about it,

736
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 1: the oldest site that we have found cannot be the

737
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 1: first site in the hemisphere, because these are it's in

738
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: the it's in the middle portion of this well, it's

739
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 1: actually in far southern South America. So for one, you've

740
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: got to assume that people must have come across the

741
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: land bridge into the America's a whole lot earlier than

742
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: they arrived in southern Chile southern South America. And the

743
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: other thing is is that the odds of us finding

744
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: the very first site in the America's are infinitely small

745
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: and absolutely so we know people were here before then.

746
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,479
Speaker 1: Now we're assuming that they they came across the land

747
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: bridge and it wasn't water access from somewhere in South America. No,

748
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 1: they walked here. We know when people start sailing across

749
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: the South Pacific it's about three thousand years ago. There

750
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 1: was no sort of cross ocean water route into the

751
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 1: America's in ice age times. We also have interesting convergence

752
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: from genetic evidence from ancient d n A. And this

753
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: is work that I do with colleagues in Copenhagen at

754
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: the Center for GeoGenetics where UM we have shown that

755
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: groups in Northeast Asia probably split off into several subgroups,

756
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: probably around twenty three twenty four thousand years ago. There

757
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: in the America's um sometime after around fifteen and a

758
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: half thousand years ago, possibly earlier. But these are the

759
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,359
Speaker 1: genetic estimates that we have, So we have this kind

760
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: of nice convergence of the archaeological and the genetic records

761
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: which are telling us that at least by fifteen and

762
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: a half thousand years ago, we have people dispersing across

763
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: the Americas. But the thing that you always have to

764
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: kind of keep in the back of your mind is,

765
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: you know, right around the corner you can find an

766
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: older site. We may get older evidence from the genetic record,

767
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: the ancient DNA record of earlier populations that we hadn't

768
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: detected before. So there's always the possibility that you're gonna

769
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: find or pssibly could find still older presences. And so

770
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 1: this Monteverde site is currently the oldest site that we

771
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: know of in the America's And let me ask you

772
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,760
Speaker 1: a question. Are you saying that that the the human

773
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 1: DNA from the indigenous people down there today are connected

774
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 1: to Asia? Yeah? Oh yeah, so that's why you said

775
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: they walked there. Oh well, it's it's it's more complicated.

776
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 1: We now have sites in North America that are as

777
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 1: old and possibly older than Monteverte. Monteverde was the first

778
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: one that said Okay, they're here before closed times. That's

779
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: a long walk from Alaska to South America. Well yeah,

780
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: and and actually, based on the genetic evidence, we think

781
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: they did it pretty quickly because we've got's incredible. Yeah,

782
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 1: we've got genomes from South America and from North America.

783
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 1: You know, areas that are separated by literally thousands of kilometers,

784
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: and yet genetically speaking, they're really closely related to one another.

785
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: So there hadn't been that many generations of time lapse between.

786
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 1: Got a thousand questions that we have town for why

787
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: did they go that far? Well, you've just walked into

788
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 1: a continent where nobody's home, and you're looking around. You

789
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: haven't seen any smoke on the horizon, you haven't seen

790
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 1: any freshly killed animals. You're realizing, Wow, I'm all alone here.

791
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: And you know, humans are curious, humans explore. There's an

792
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: advantage if you're in an unknown landscape to mobility is insurance.

793
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what's right around you right now, it's

794
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: what's over the next hill when things go badly where

795
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: I am right So there's a there's a real advantage

796
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 1: to moving and and the fact that they were traveling

797
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: is by what we measure as archaeologically breathtaking speed, tells

798
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: you that they were really fast learners. They made it

799
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 1: all the way over from Siberia for goodness sakes, they

800
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,760
Speaker 1: knew that they knew what they were about. So what

801
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: are the sites that are older than the Monteverde site

802
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 1: that are in North America. So You've got a place

803
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: in Oregon called Paisley Cave UM which has produced UM

804
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: a really interesting record including prehistoric poop um human human

805
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: which dates to pre closed times and has human DNA

806
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: preserved in it. I did not notice. Yeah, there's sits

807
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: here in Texas down just north of Austin known as

808
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,399
Speaker 1: the Galt site, and then there's an adjacent one it's

809
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: probably it's probably the same site called the Friedkin Site UM,

810
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:27,879
Speaker 1: which have produced ages of fifteen thousand plus. So yeah,

811
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: there's there's sites sort of hither and yon across North

812
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 1: America that are consistently coming in in that you know,

813
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: fifteen thousand plus or minus range of time. Here's Steve

814
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: leading us into a very interesting part of how Fulsome

815
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: impacted America. He's always stirring up trouble here with the

816
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 1: Fulsome site. You got a projectile point laying in the

817
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 1: rib of the thing. No rational reasonable person could come

818
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: and make any argument that here's an ice age relic

819
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: that was killed by a human being that proved once

820
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: and for all that human antiquity in the New World

821
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 1: went back a long ways, and it was problematic for

822
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: people who had a certain interpretation of human timelines with

823
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: respect to Biblical teachings, and it caused something of a

824
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: religious crisis because it forced the idea that human habitation

825
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: here fit outside of what was then a wide held

826
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: understanding of how humans spread around the world based on

827
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: a Biblical chronology. And it was a sort of you know,

828
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: it was it was a spiritual discussion as much as

829
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 1: it was about anthropology, that you had a deep ten

830
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: thousand plus year human existence that did not fit into

831
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: an understanding of of a of a certain very literal

832
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 1: interpretation of the human timeline based on Genesis. I'd like

833
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,879
Speaker 1: to talk about the issue that Steve just brought up,

834
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: which could be a can of worms for some of

835
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: us and was for many in the nineteen twenties, and

836
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: the issue is the antiquity of man as described by

837
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,919
Speaker 1: science versus what some believe the Bible describes. The real

838
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,280
Speaker 1: issue has to do with how portions of the Bible

839
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 1: are interpreted. Many believed, and among them most archaeologists at

840
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 1: the time, that man had only been on the North

841
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: American continent for three thousand years, which fit within a

842
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 1: literal biblical time frame. The fulsome sight said something different.

843
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 1: I personally believe science and the Bible aren't at odds

844
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: at all. But here's a good question. Why are we

845
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: talking about this? Because this stuff is beyond important to

846
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: me in my family, and I know many of you,

847
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,280
Speaker 1: and let me say, if you aren't interested in the Bible,

848
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: please don't be threatened by my directness. This section is

849
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: for the bros that are interested, and I know a

850
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:09,439
Speaker 1: lot of you are. Fist bump of agreement. I want

851
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,240
Speaker 1: to give you the lowdown. The first book of the Bible,

852
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: called Genesis, tells the Hebrew seven day creation story of

853
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 1: the universe, the Earth, animals, and man in the first

854
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: couple of chapters. It also tells the human lineage of

855
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,439
Speaker 1: man all the way from the first humans Adam and Eve,

856
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 1: up to modern historical figures that we now know exactly

857
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: when they were here. And this is where the issue is.

858
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: If you do the math, it puts the creation of

859
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: the Earth and the first humans at about six thousand

860
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: years ago, while science says the Earth is four point

861
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: five billion years old, and that the first modern humans

862
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 1: arrived here long before six thousand years ago. This is

863
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: a big problem if you take this portion of the

864
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 1: Bible literally, and as a person that absolutely believes the

865
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 1: Bible is tricky business to say that portions of it

866
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: you take literally and others you don't. But that is

867
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:07,760
Speaker 1: not what I'm saying. We use metaphors all the time

868
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: to describe very literal things. It doesn't mean it's a

869
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 1: fairy tale because a metaphor was used. It's not known,

870
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: but it's believed. The Book of Genesis was written about

871
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 1: thirty years ago. The first written languages started showing up

872
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 1: about five thousand years ago in the Middle East, so

873
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,280
Speaker 1: the fulsome hunters were stacking up bison in New Mexico

874
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 1: seventy years before the Book of Genesis was written. That's

875
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: a relevant data point because up until written languages appeared,

876
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 1: all history and important stories were passed down by the

877
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: only means available, which was orally, and this method of

878
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 1: generational transfer of information impacts the way that stories are told.

879
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: Oral storytelling had to be simple enough for people to

880
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: remember it, all the while carrying the essential architectural principles

881
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: that were important and would last through time. The author

882
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: John Lennox, in his book Seven Days That Divide the

883
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:10,360
Speaker 1: World says quote, the first obvious yet important thing to

884
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: say about the Bible is that it is literature. In fact,

885
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: it is a whole library of books, some of them history,

886
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: some poetry, some in the form of letters, and so on,

887
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,720
Speaker 1: very different and content and style. And approaching literature in general,

888
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: the first question to ask is how does the author

889
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,879
Speaker 1: who wrote it wish to be understood? For instance, the

890
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 1: author of a mathematics textbook does not intend to be

891
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: understood as poetry. Shakespeare does not intend us to understand

892
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 1: his plays as exact history, and so on. I would

893
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 1: highly recommend John Lennox's book. He's a mathematician at Oxford

894
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: University in England and has publicly debated Richard Dawkins, a

895
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: famous atheist, and if any of you hill Billies no

896
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: John Lennox, I'd love to have him on the podcast.

897
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 1: The essential principles that the story in Genesis carries through

898
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 1: it could be whittled down to two main things. Number One,

899
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: an entity of incredible intelligence and power strategically created the

900
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: universe over your period of time through the natural processes

901
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 1: of geology, biology, and science, the creation story as a

902
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,280
Speaker 1: sequence of seven days could be viewed as multiple periods

903
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: of time, which at its elementary framework, is consistent with

904
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:30,280
Speaker 1: the geological and fossil records. I personally believe the seven

905
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 1: days of Genesis weren't seven twenty four hour days, but

906
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 1: rather they were epics of time. The second principle that

907
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: the story carries with it strongly was that God made

908
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: man different than the animals, which science completely agrees with

909
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: in the sense of cognitive capabilities. The only thing God

910
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: breathed his breath into, according to Genesis, was man. He

911
00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 1: gave the animals life, but not his breath. The most

912
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:04,799
Speaker 1: respected modern evolutionary biologists, who typically aren't too keen on

913
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 1: the Bible, highlight and marvel at the oddity of human uniqueness.

914
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: That breath parallels, the self reflective insight that Ian Tattersall

915
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 1: spoke of, and the language, art, toolmaking, and symbolic thought

916
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: that separates the species Homo sapiens so distinctly from every

917
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 1: other species. Science attributes are cognitive abilities to natural selection,

918
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 1: advantageous gene mutations, and pure mathematical chance. And to say

919
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 1: that God did this doesn't negate that he used some

920
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:42,280
Speaker 1: of these processes to accomplish what we now see in humans.

921
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 1: Man is the one who has pitted science and God

922
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 1: against each other, but clearly I don't think they've got

923
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: any qualms with one another. Genesis also famously tells the

924
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 1: story of the fall of man when he ate to

925
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:00,040
Speaker 1: forbidden fruit, realized he was naked and became ashamed. This

926
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 1: is oddly similar to this idea of self reflective insight.

927
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: So my point is this that Genesis was never meant

928
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,720
Speaker 1: to be a scientific textbook, but rather a story carrying

929
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 1: principles that could be understood by primitive man and by

930
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 1: modern people in one that's a pretty major feat. It

931
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,879
Speaker 1: needed to be a story that could last the irrosive

932
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 1: nature of time, kind of like a stone fulsome point,

933
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 1: and it has done just that. Since we're having so

934
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 1: much fun, let's go a little bit further. I believe

935
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 1: the creation sequence mirrors much of what modern science believes

936
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 1: about the formation of the universe and planet. Here's the

937
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:48,760
Speaker 1: rough creation sequence of Genesis. Day one, light was created,

938
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 1: the sun, day to the atmosphere and ocean. Day three,

939
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 1: dry land and vegetation appear. Day four, stars and moon,

940
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 1: Day five, sea creatures and birds day six, land animals,

941
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 1: and lastly humans, and on day seven God took a break.

942
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 1: The sequence begins with the sun and then goes to

943
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 1: fishing birds, which come before the creation of man, and

944
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: man arrives at the very end. Which this is a

945
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 1: pretty consistent story with what we know of the fossil record,

946
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 1: And all I'm saying is that it's pretty crazy that

947
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 1: some ancient dudes got a wildly complex scientific sequence even

948
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: remotely right in their oral story. There would have been

949
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 1: infinite options for their explanation. To this day, modern science

950
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 1: cannot explain the formation of the universe, and that is

951
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 1: not my opinion, that is the consensus of science. We

952
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 1: do not know. So actually, all of us that have

953
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: any thoughts or opinions on the formation of the universe,

954
00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 1: and the reason man is the way is our writing

955
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:04,839
Speaker 1: on some version of faith. Science, by its very definition,

956
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 1: can only understand and describe and measure that which is

957
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 1: seen and able to be replicated. It doesn't claim to

958
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: understand the metaphysical, which means beyond the physical, and it's

959
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:21,959
Speaker 1: a ridiculously Western and modern idea to think that there

960
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 1: is no metaphysical. Science does a great job of explaining

961
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: everything in its realm. But at the end it is

962
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: saying there are things we can't explain, and we know

963
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 1: that this isn't the end of the trail. And this

964
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 1: is exactly where faith based philosophies start, and no, they

965
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 1: can't be proven. That is the essence of faith, which

966
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,919
Speaker 1: I have found is rewarding and fun way to live

967
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 1: your life. This is an incredibly logical and intelligent sequence,

968
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: and it's not surprising that scientific literature doesn't validate the

969
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 1: existence of God it hand. However, scientists can have personal opinions,

970
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 1: and that's where things can get confusing and ideas go

971
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:11,920
Speaker 1: in and out of vogue. We could go on and on,

972
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 1: because this stuff is fascinating. To get back to human

973
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 1: life in our unusual arrival on planet Earth, here we go.

974
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 1: Ian Tattersall said that the chro Magnuts, these were the

975
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 1: first people in Europe, showed up quickly, fully formed in

976
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: the fossil record and full of symbolism and art. At

977
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: the end of Tattersall's book Becoming Human, he said, quote,

978
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 1: it is frustrating, indeed, to come to the end of

979
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 1: our story and to have to admit that we have

980
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: little idea as to exactly how, when, where, or why

981
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 1: our extraordinary consciousness was acquired. I respect his frankness about

982
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 1: what science can explain and about what it can't. Later,

983
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 1: he said that this cognitive ability was quote comparatively sudden,

984
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 1: and that it came very late in our evolutionary history.

985
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 1: I think the themes in both science and the creation

986
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 1: story mirror each other. Here. Something happened very quickly that

987
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 1: made humans what they are. The story of how our

988
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: cognitive condition came about is shrouded in deep mystery. I'm

989
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: certain that the fulsome hunters had an opinion about how

990
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 1: humans got here, and if we were playing a game

991
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 1: of telephone, the guys closer to the source of the

992
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 1: intel were usually right. All that to say, I think

993
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 1: the primitive humans that wrote the creation story in the

994
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: Book of Genesis were onto something. And I'm with the

995
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 1: cave men on this one, but I'm also with the

996
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 1: real science that we know today. Man, that was like

997
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 1: riding the bucking mal Can you believe that we talked

998
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: about this for twelve minutes? I absolutely love it. I

999
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: realize that my little spiel here doesn't even begin to

1000
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 1: scratch the surface of this topic, and I'm not really

1001
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 1: interested in a debate. I'm just not geared up for that.

1002
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 1: I just wanted to give people that care about the

1003
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: Bible some food for thought. Additionally, in scientific and academic literature,

1004
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 1: the idea of intelligent design and creation has been minimized

1005
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 1: and even ridiculed, and in some places they've made it

1006
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: a point to label people who believe the Bible as ignorant.

1007
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: And I've even seen them use the word primitive as

1008
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 1: a descriptor for those of us who believe the Bible,

1009
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 1: And you know, maybe that's not such a bad label.

1010
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 1: So I guess my biggest point is for those that

1011
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 1: believe the Bible to say that this is actually a

1012
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 1: pretty intelligent way to try to understand the universe, and

1013
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: that there is no reason to fear good science. I

1014
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 1: want to get back with the closing thought from Dr

1015
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 1: Meltzer on how fulsome impact the archaeological community. He spent

1016
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 1: a lot of time learning about the history of archaeology

1017
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: and interviewing old archaeologists. Here's what he said. Early on,

1018
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:12,919
Speaker 1: I was doing some research on it, and I wrote

1019
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 1: to a bunch of the folks who have been around

1020
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 1: in in the nineteen twenties, and I said, well, what

1021
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:20,439
Speaker 1: was it like. And one of the comments that sort

1022
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 1: of stuck with me over the years was from Amiel

1023
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 1: Howry at the University of Arizona, and he said, you

1024
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 1: know what, we all felt relief that all of that

1025
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 1: argument and bitterness and controversy was finally over. We had

1026
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 1: now a clear data point. We knew people had been

1027
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 1: here for at least ten thousand years, and so we

1028
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 1: could stop arguing about that and start trying to understand. Okay,

1029
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 1: so what happened between ten thousand years ago and two

1030
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 1: thousand years ago when we've already known about all this

1031
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 1: archaeological stuff. You know, suddenly American archaeologists in the nineteen

1032
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 1: twenties and nineteen thirties have a really interesting challenge. And

1033
01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 1: Fulsome triggered that It's been a wild ride learning about

1034
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 1: the Fulsome sight. But I have to go back to

1035
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 1: my original question why is this important? And I think

1036
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 1: at least some portion of that answer is pretty simple.

1037
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 1: Getting a small peak into the lives of ancient humans

1038
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:22,440
Speaker 1: gives us a data point about normal human behavior, and

1039
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 1: this helps put our current lives and behavior in the context.

1040
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 1: When I hear the Fulsome story, the reverberation of human

1041
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 1: struggle is glaringou mankind has always struggled, and technology will

1042
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 1: never be able to take the struggle of being human away.

1043
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 1: It just shifts it to different areas. We went from

1044
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 1: defending our wooly mammoth kill from dire wolves to the

1045
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 1: American version of struggle would be like stressing out about

1046
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:53,600
Speaker 1: paying bills, or buying our kids decent basketball shoes, or

1047
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 1: how to maintain our social status by what kind of

1048
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:59,479
Speaker 1: truck we drive. I drive a pretty beat up truck, y'all,

1049
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 1: and for the record, so does Warner Glenn, James Warrens,

1050
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 1: and Roy Clarke think about it. But on the other hand,

1051
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 1: much of the world's struggle today is still dramatic and

1052
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 1: life threatening. People struggle with disease, abject poverty, finding clean

1053
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 1: water to drink and food to eat. The human story

1054
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 1: of struggle remains consistently. And I'll wake up that dead

1055
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 1: horse and whoop on him a little bit and say

1056
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 1: that the cave men that wrote the Book of Genesis

1057
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 1: recounted that God told them that the struggle would always

1058
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:38,919
Speaker 1: be here. Turns out they were right. I can't thank

1059
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 1: you enough for listening to bear grease. It's been a

1060
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:44,880
Speaker 1: pleasure chatting with you. I would also like to thank

1061
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 1: Dr David Meltzer for contributing his knowledge to the series.

1062
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 1: Be sure to check out all his books. But his

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Speaker 1: contribution isn't over. In the final episode of this series,

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01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 1: we're diving in deep to the actual fulsome point. It's

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Speaker 1: gonna be really cool. Hey, please leave us a review

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01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 1: on iTunes and tell somebody about this podcast this week

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Speaker 1: and Merry Christmas your bear Grees and Hillbillies. H