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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westerveldt. Today

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Speaker 1: we are bringing you another interview in our ongoing series

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Speaker 1: Drilling Deep, in which we interview the authors of various

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Speaker 1: books coming out on climate, the energy transition, the economy

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Speaker 1: and politics surrounding those things and all of the above.

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Speaker 1: Usually these interviews are being done by Adam Lowenstein, who

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Speaker 1: is written all the books and talking to all authors

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Speaker 1: for us, and that is true of this episode as well.

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Speaker 1: This time Adam spoke with Jean Baptiste Frasso, who's the

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Speaker 1: author of More and More and More and All Consuming

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Speaker 1: History of Energy. This book is great. It looks at

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Speaker 1: how green innovation and decarbonization are not necessarily the same thing.

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Speaker 1: In fact, Frasseau points out that it is perfectly readable

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Speaker 1: and more importantly accurate to assume that the consumption of oil, gas, coal,

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Speaker 1: and even wood will continue to increase right alongside clean energy.

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Speaker 1: I've written about this a bunch lots of other people

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Speaker 1: have as well. If we only tackle the energy source

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Speaker 1: and we don't tackle our behavior or our attitudes towards consumption,

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Speaker 1: then yeah, we're going to end up using too many

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Speaker 1: critical earth minerals or creating a bunch of environmental problems

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Speaker 1: getting lithium or building a bunch of electric SUVs that

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Speaker 1: nobody needs. Friseau shows this is the real story of

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Speaker 1: humanity's development and consumption of energy. We keep using more

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Speaker 1: and more and more of all kinds of it. And

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Speaker 1: while the popular narrative is one of substitution oil replacing coal,

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Speaker 1: for example, the real is symbiosis. New energy sources do

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Speaker 1: not supplant their predecessors, but rather supplement them. If that

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Speaker 1: sounds like a radical argument, it's only because the notion

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Speaker 1: of energy transition has become so deeply entrenched. In a

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Speaker 1: conversation recorded in September, Adam and Freiso discussed how the

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Speaker 1: premise of energy transition became widely accepted as true and inevitable,

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Speaker 1: why clean energy innovation is not the same thing as decarbonization,

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Speaker 1: how the fossil fuel industry helped launder pipe dreams of

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Speaker 1: non existent technologies like carbon capture and storage into mainstream

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Speaker 1: climate solutions, and much more and more and more. It's

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Speaker 1: a really fascinating conversation. I hope you enjoy it as

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Speaker 1: much as I did. That interview is coming up right

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Speaker 1: after this quick break.

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Speaker 4: So I know the US publication was just last month,

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Speaker 4: but the book's been out elsewhere for a while, right,

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Speaker 4: and it's become quite successful.

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Speaker 3: It's been in France. It has been publishing in France

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Speaker 3: in January twenty four O reached October twenty for in

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Speaker 3: Britain and in Spain it's more the same. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's been out for a year more than a year,

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Speaker 3: at year and a half.

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Speaker 4: How has the reception been in America versus where it

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Speaker 4: was published previously.

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Speaker 3: I mean there was a really warm reception. I got

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Speaker 3: severals and people were interested in this, you know, historical

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Speaker 3: outlook on this very consensual but strange notion of energy transition.

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Speaker 3: I think in the US the reception for the moment

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Speaker 3: has been rather quiet. Perhaps it's because the debate about

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Speaker 3: climate change in the US has shifted so much to

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Speaker 3: the right and to climato skepticism and all that that

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Speaker 3: my book is not really you know, adapted for to

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Speaker 3: fight for fighting this debate. It's rather a book which

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Speaker 3: helped us to understand what it takes to really get

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Speaker 3: carbon neutral, right. So, I mean, that's the big difference

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Speaker 3: I think that I noticed between the US and Europe

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Speaker 3: from what I hear from people working in finance or

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Speaker 3: insurance industry. Basically they say that trump reelection is a backlash.

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Speaker 3: Also in European finance, for instance, there were a lot

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Speaker 3: of commitment of companies going and net zero, having net

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Speaker 3: zero strategies and all this now is being reduced and

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Speaker 3: you know, so it has effect and bad effects and

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Speaker 3: terrible effects on the rest of the world as well.

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Speaker 3: But right, we should not be obsessed with the US.

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Speaker 3: I think the US now is just like thirteen or

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Speaker 3: fourteen percent of theater emissions. What did I say, is

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Speaker 3: what's happening in China basically and in Asia in general,

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Speaker 3: and there, I mean, there are some good news about

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Speaker 3: the development of solar energy, but there are also bad

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Speaker 3: news about deployment of new called power plant at the

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Speaker 3: same time. And so my book helps usertand why these

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Speaker 3: two phenomena can happen at the same time, Why coal

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Speaker 3: and sorrow energy are not necessarily in competition. Why we

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Speaker 3: have a far too simplistic vision of energy dynamics where

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Speaker 3: new energy replace the old ones. But in fact energies

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Speaker 3: are in competition, but they're also in symbiosis. So that's

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Speaker 3: really what the book explore, the simbiostic relationship between the

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Speaker 3: between energies.

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Speaker 4: For me, one of the best things reading a book

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Speaker 4: can do is completely shift my understanding of how the

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Speaker 4: world is, how the world works, and I think this

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Speaker 4: is one of those books. And so I want to

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Speaker 4: take a sort of a roundabout approach to getting to

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Speaker 4: your core argument, because I think it's very simple on

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Speaker 4: one hand, but it's such a fundamental transformation and how

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Speaker 4: so many of us see the world and understand how

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Speaker 4: we got here that I want to kind of ease

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Speaker 4: into it to make sure it's clear for folks. So

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Speaker 4: the question I want to start with on that front

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Speaker 4: is why humanity is still burning so much wood, Because

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Speaker 4: the story we've been told is that there was wood,

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Speaker 4: and then there was coal, and then there was oil

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Speaker 4: and natural gas, and now we're in the midst of

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Speaker 4: a transition to green energy. But one of the most

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Speaker 4: transformational parts of the book for me is A, that's

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Speaker 4: not the case, and B we're still consuming more than ever.

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Speaker 3: In fact, indeed, I mean, the world consumption of foods

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Speaker 3: right now is four billion cubic mirrors. About how this

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Speaker 3: quantity is burned directly to produce heat, I mean, why

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Speaker 3: we burn so much food? First of all, because for

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Speaker 3: a big part of the population it is a major

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Speaker 3: fuel for the poor in the poor world would remain

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Speaker 3: extremely important. But actually wood has also increased in the ritual,

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Speaker 3: which is probably more surprising. But for instance, wood energy

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Speaker 3: is very important for the paper industry, and the paper

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Speaker 3: industry is a huge industrial consumer of energy. The forced

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Speaker 3: the fourth largest consumer of energy after I mean, the

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Speaker 3: first is steel, the second is cement, the third is

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Speaker 3: chemical industry, and the fourth is the paper industry. And

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Speaker 3: paper industry is using more and more wood just to

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Speaker 3: power its production process. And right now the wood energy

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Speaker 3: consuming the paper industry in Europe, for instance, it's more

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Speaker 3: or less the same as the solar electricity in Europe.

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Speaker 3: So we're talking about, you know, a seriouse amount of

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Speaker 3: wood energy here. But in a more general way, I

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Speaker 3: think it's important to notice that the more you got oil,

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Speaker 3: and once you've got oil, wood is becoming cheaper and

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Speaker 3: cheaper because with all you've got chainsaws, lumber trucks, all

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Speaker 3: sorts of machines which make wood much cheaper. So you

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Speaker 3: can burn more wood because you've got access to more wood.

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Speaker 3: And another thing is thanks to oil and gas you

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Speaker 3: can produce and pesticide and fertilizer, you can produce much

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Speaker 3: much more wood on a certain area. I mean the yields,

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Speaker 3: the productivity per acres of plantations of forest plantations has

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Speaker 3: increased a lot since the nineteen sixties, especially with the

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Speaker 3: production of cucalyptus, which is like a kind of a

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Speaker 3: miracle tree. Just to give you an example, in Brazil

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Speaker 3: eucalyptus plantation they can reach like forty cubic meter per

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Speaker 3: year and actar a forest in Europe would be like

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Speaker 3: two or three cubic meter per year per rectar. In

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Speaker 3: the early twentieth century, so that there is a radical

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Speaker 3: transformation of the production of wood, and that makes that

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Speaker 3: food energy has increased. For all these reasons, wood energy

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Speaker 3: has increased lots in the nineteen in the twentieth century.

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Speaker 4: One of the things that you show in this book

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Speaker 4: is that different energy systems different materials are symbiotic. Can

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Speaker 4: you describe what that means? And maybe using the relationship

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Speaker 4: between coal and oil, I think you say it's one

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Speaker 4: of the most important relationships in modern history.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, basically the history of energy has been

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Speaker 3: obsessed with substitution, with transition, with competition. How oil displaced

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Speaker 3: coal because of course, when you've got diesel engine, you

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Speaker 3: can get I mean, you can get rid of old

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Speaker 3: steam engines which are particularly inefficient. But it's just one

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Speaker 3: part of the story. In general, energies are in symbiosity,

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Speaker 3: that they have symbiotic relationship, they're intertwined. And just to

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Speaker 3: give you an example about oil and coal. To produce

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Speaker 3: a car in the nineteen thirties, Ford Company, we need

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Speaker 3: like seven tons of coal to build an automobile because

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Speaker 3: they I mean Ford produced its own steel, it produced

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Speaker 3: its own electricity, and seven tons of coal. It means

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Speaker 3: that at that time, and automobile is just as much

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Speaker 3: a coal technology as an oil technology, because at that

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Speaker 3: time the tea would burn more or less seven tons

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Speaker 3: of oil during its lifetime. And it's even more than

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Speaker 3: that because to use an automobile you need roads obviously,

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Speaker 3: and to make road you need cement and steel, and

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Speaker 3: these two materials are also called dependent. Right. So that's

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Speaker 3: why despite the advance of oil, actually you burn more

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Speaker 3: and more coal. I mean, there is no opposition at all.

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Speaker 3: And then to extract oil you need a lot of

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Speaker 3: steel tubes. When I say a lot, it's really tremendous amount.

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Speaker 3: Like the US at the beginning of the twenty first

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Speaker 3: century US more still to extract oil than the US

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Speaker 3: than the whole US economy used in the early nineteen hundreds. Right,

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Speaker 3: So there is really a synthetic expansion of both coal

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Speaker 3: and oil, and the two go along very well together.

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Speaker 3: Once you start to think energy like this, the idea

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Speaker 3: of energy transition, of course, starts to become stranger and stranger. Right.

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Speaker 3: So the first part of the book is really an

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Speaker 3: explanation of why coal, oil, woods and all energies actually

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Speaker 3: are completely into twine and growing symbiotically and the second

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Speaker 3: part of the book is how come that this idea

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Speaker 3: of energy transition became so you know, natural, whereas it

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Speaker 3: shouldn't be. It's a really weird, weird notion.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, let's go there actually and talk about where this

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Speaker 4: narrative came from. I'm particularly interested in talking about the

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Speaker 4: role of industry and the role of intellectuals. Both groups,

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Speaker 4: obviously lots of overlap between the two then and now

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Speaker 4: are partly responsible. But can you talk about the genesis

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Speaker 4: of this narrative which has become so entrenched that a

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Speaker 4: lot of us, I think, including me, until I read

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Speaker 4: this book, just saw it as again the way things.

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Speaker 3: Are, I mean. Or The third thing to note is

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Speaker 3: that for a long period of time, nobody talked about

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Speaker 3: energy transition because what I just explained was completely self evident.

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Speaker 3: For so, they knew that coal would be necessary just

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Speaker 3: to produce steel, for instance, like in the nineteen fifties

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Speaker 3: American conservationists, you know, they were asking questions such as,

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Speaker 3: will there be called in the twenty third or twenty

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Speaker 3: fourth century, you know, we should you know, economize call

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Speaker 3: because we will need call for a very very long

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Speaker 3: period of time in the future. So they did not

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Speaker 3: imagine energy system shifting suddenly to another another base. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it was not something they had in mind. And then

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Speaker 3: there was a small group of scientists experts who started

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Speaker 3: to talk about energy transition. Most of them were atomic scientists,

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Speaker 3: US atomic scientists who had participated to the man Attan project,

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Speaker 3: the creation of the first atomic So.

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Speaker 4: We're talking nineteen fifties roughly.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I mean right after actually Hiroshima and Nagazaki, right

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Speaker 3: after that, they start to imagine, you know, what you

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Speaker 3: could do with this tremendous invention. In a way, I

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Speaker 3: think that for some of them, they felt guilty about

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Speaker 3: the atomic bombing of Japanese series, and they wanted to

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Speaker 3: explain that what they had done during the war was

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Speaker 3: not just this terrible instrument of destruction, but was also

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Speaker 3: the key for the long term survival of humanity. It

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Speaker 3: was the only energy that you could project in a far,

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Speaker 3: far away future. There is a an atomic scientist called

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Speaker 3: Alvin Weinberg who was a participant of the to the

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Speaker 3: Mandarin project, and then he became a very important character.

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Speaker 3: He was the head of Oakridge National Laboratory after the war,

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Speaker 3: and in his biography he explicitly explained, I mean he

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Speaker 3: said that I became obsessed with the Breeder reactor. It

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Speaker 3: is a certain kind of nuclear reactor or fast nutrient

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Speaker 3: reactor which basically opens up a kind of unlimited amount

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Speaker 3: of energy or I mean energies for not decades of centuries,

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Speaker 3: but for millennia. So it's really it really becomes a

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Speaker 3: kind of you know, providential technology. And of course when

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Speaker 3: you start to think about energy, not indicate centric, but

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Speaker 3: in terms of millennia, then you can imagine all sorts

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Speaker 3: of things, and you especially imagine the end of fossil fuels.

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Speaker 3: There will be an energy transition because fossil fuels are finite,

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Speaker 3: there is a limited amount of them under the ground.

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Speaker 3: So there will be a future. There will be a

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Speaker 3: time when we have exhausted fossil fuels and the world,

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Speaker 3: the world will run on atomic energy and hydrogen because

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Speaker 3: they know that you need, you know, like a liquid

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Speaker 3: to power sheets or boats or or or cars and

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Speaker 3: so on. Right, So that that that's that, that's what

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Speaker 3: the vision was. But another important character in this respect

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Speaker 3: is actually Mayanking Herbert that I don't know how famous

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Speaker 3: is in the US, but is really important. Theoretician of

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Speaker 3: peak oil in the nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there are certain online communities I think where he's

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Speaker 4: probably quite well known the peak oil crowd.

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Speaker 3: So basically in the nineteen fifties he was explaining that

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Speaker 3: the US would reach its peak oil production around nineteen seventy. Actually,

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Speaker 3: right now, the US I think is producing fifty percent

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Speaker 3: more oil than in nineteen seventy because he could not

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Speaker 3: see Shelle oil basically coming. So Minking Herbert in nineteen

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Speaker 3: fifty five is recruited by the Atomic Energy Commission and

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Speaker 3: he becomes like a prominent voice in defense of the

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Speaker 3: Breeder reactor. He writes special reports that are read by

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Speaker 3: John Figerald Kennedy about the Breeder reactor, and in his

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Speaker 3: work he said that, I mean, we have to develop

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Speaker 3: this technology because we need to make a transition from oil,

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Speaker 3: coal and gas to nuclear energy. The person coined the

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Speaker 3: word energy transition is called Harrison Brown, who is also

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Speaker 3: an atomic scientist. And actually when he invents this world

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Speaker 3: is recycling a technical term of nuclear physics and energy transition.

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Speaker 3: Nuclear physics is the change of an electron around its nucleus,

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Speaker 3: and it recycles this world to talk about the future

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Speaker 3: of energy, So really this is the beginning of energy

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Speaker 3: transition as a kind of you know, expert knowledge. It

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Speaker 3: comes from this small group of people. Several things to say.

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Speaker 3: First of all, the energy transition seen by the atomic

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Speaker 3: scientists of the nineteen fifties. You know, it's a very long,

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Speaker 3: dury process. It will take not decade the centuries. According

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Speaker 3: to min King her Bed, the head of fossil fuel

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Speaker 3: at a global level will be in three or four centuries.

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Speaker 3: They know that there is still a lot of coal,

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Speaker 3: and they also know that in the poor world at

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Speaker 3: a make energy we take a lot of time to

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Speaker 3: develop obviously, right. What is problematic is that we recycle

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Speaker 3: this idea of energy transition to reflect upon climate change,

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Speaker 3: because now we have to do the energy transition not

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Speaker 3: in three or four centuries, but in three or four decades,

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Speaker 3: and we have to do it whereas fossil fuels are

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Speaker 3: rather cheap, I mean, oil is not that expensive and

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Speaker 3: coal is cheap, so it's a completely different situation. But

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Speaker 3: we recycle the same kind of you know, energy futurelogy,

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Speaker 3: I think a very wrong energy futurology, which has played

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Speaker 3: a detrimental role in our understanding of the enormity of

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Speaker 3: the challenge of solving climate change.

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Speaker 4: Can you describe briefly what a futureology is and how

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Speaker 4: it applies to this discussion.

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Speaker 3: Perhaps I would say forecast to be a better word.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure actly I mean of the futureology is

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Speaker 3: a vision of the future, a theory about the future,

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Speaker 3: what I do in the future, what will happen. So

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Speaker 3: it's all this discussion which is, you know, gear at

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Speaker 3: imagining what will be the shape of things to come,

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Speaker 3: that I call futureology. But it's actually were they use

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Speaker 3: at the time, and it was very fashionable in the

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Speaker 3: nineteen fifties. Of course, with the atomic age in the

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Speaker 3: nineteen sixties, I mean, futulogy becomes a kind of scientific

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Speaker 3: discipline in the in the nineteen sixties, I would say,

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Speaker 3: where there is a lot of drurnals that are call

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Speaker 3: that are created about technological focusting, about how things technology

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Speaker 3: evolve and so on. It is really studied at that period.

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Speaker 3: And one of the problem is that most of the

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Speaker 3: focusting actually was on technology, the evolution of technologies, and

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Speaker 3: it is from this discipline that our understanding of what

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Speaker 3: we should do for climate change emerged. The problem is

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Speaker 3: that dynamics of technologies are not the same as dynamics

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Speaker 3: of materials and energies. I mean, when you talk about technology,

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Speaker 3: technologies do become obsolete sometime. Landlines for instance, for telephones,

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Speaker 3: you know they are absolute now, But materials are very obsolete.

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Speaker 3: It's a very, very trivial thing. But I think it's

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Speaker 3: very important to keep that in mind. Despite all the innovations,

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Speaker 3: all the new technologies that we got in the twenty

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Speaker 3: years and twenty first century, all raw materials have increased.

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Speaker 3: That's why, I mean what you just said about how

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Speaker 3: come that we burn so much food? Actually you can

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Speaker 3: ask the question for every material. It's not just that oil,

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Speaker 3: gas and coal are expanding, is that every raw material

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Speaker 3: is expanding. There are very few exceptions to this rule.

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Speaker 3: One of them is asbestos, which is material which was prohibited.

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Speaker 3: I think it's quite interesting to see that prohibition prohibition

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Speaker 3: does work. If you want to do something about time change,

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Speaker 3: you have to prohibit extraction or consumption. You have to

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Speaker 3: really take a decision. You cannot rely on technological obsolescence

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Speaker 3: of Passifield. This is really a very it's a losing

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Speaker 3: bad basically, it's a losing strategy. The only example of

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Speaker 3: a room material that has decreased because of technological obserlizence.

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Speaker 3: It is shipwule because it has been displaced by synthetic fibers.

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Speaker 3: But it's not a good news Sutch environment, but it

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Speaker 3: is one of the very very rare example of such

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Speaker 3: a process of material transition. If you wish and chip

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Speaker 3: wooll is still consumed, I mean, it does not disappear obviously.

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Speaker 3: So once again you cannot overestimate the enormity of what

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Speaker 3: we have to do now. It is just I mean,

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Speaker 3: we have no historical analogy to what we have to

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Speaker 3: do now. We have never done energy transition in the past.

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Speaker 3: We don't know how long it takes since we have

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Speaker 3: never done an energy transition, and I think it's important

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Speaker 3: for people to realize that this is extraordinarily ambitious. It's

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Speaker 3: not just a matter of putting some solar panels and windmills.

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Speaker 3: It's much deeper than that.

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Speaker 4: And I'm just going to plant a flag here for

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Speaker 4: us to come back to carbon capture and storage, because

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Speaker 4: as you're describing the fact that essentially every energy source

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Speaker 4: in the history of humanity has continued to accumulate over time,

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Speaker 4: you can see why from the industry's perspective, and also

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Speaker 4: from the IPCC or from anyone who would like this

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Speaker 4: to be an easier resolution than it requires. Something like

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Speaker 4: CCS would be a very seductive option.

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Speaker 3: But before we.

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Speaker 4: Get to that, I just wanted to see if you

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Speaker 4: could talk a bit about how the narrative of the

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Speaker 4: energy transition became so persistent and so entrenched, and in

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Speaker 4: particular why the fossil fuel industry capitalized on it or

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Speaker 4: saw it as such a useful delay tactic.

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Speaker 3: To come back to what I was saying before, basically,

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Speaker 3: in the nineteen CCS they are just, I mean, a

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Speaker 3: small group of people talking about energy transition. There were

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Speaker 3: nuclear promoters of nuclear energy or fast freederreactor, a very

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Speaker 3: specific kind of technology. But then there was something happened

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Speaker 3: to trust the oil shock and the energy crisis. After

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventy three, the phrase energy crisis became omnipresent, I

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Speaker 3: mean was in every on every mouth, in every mouth,

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Speaker 3: It was on talk shows on the New York Times,

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Speaker 3: So it was really like an obsession, and energy transition

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Speaker 3: actually became natural as a solution for the energy crisis.

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Speaker 3: If there is one person that has been really important

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Speaker 3: to really normalize this idea. It is a US president

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Speaker 3: called Jimmy Cutter. On the eighteenth of April nineteen seventy seven,

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Speaker 3: it gave a very important talk on television where it says,

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Speaker 3: I mean, in the part the US has done two

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Speaker 3: energy transitions, one from good to cold, seven from coal

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Speaker 3: to oil, and we have to do a third energy transition.

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Speaker 3: It was a very astute way to sell to the

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Speaker 3: US public the increase of the coal industry. I mean,

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Speaker 3: Jimmy Carter is now remembered for having put some solar

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Speaker 3: panels on the roof of the White House. He supported

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Speaker 3: solar energy.

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Speaker 4: And that actually sounds pretty appealing right now, Yeah, it

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Speaker 4: sounds very appealing, and I think it was probably the

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, he wanted to do something about

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Speaker 4: solar energy, but he was also not very naive about

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Speaker 4: what we could do with sol.

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Speaker 3: Energy in nineteen seventy So actually the main basis of

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Speaker 3: his energy policy was call. I mean, all is going

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Speaker 3: to become more expensive. We have to dig more call

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Speaker 3: in the US. We even need to I mean, according

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Speaker 3: to him, to liquify call, to transform call into a

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Speaker 3: synthetic fuel. And actually it is really at this particular

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Speaker 3: moment in history that climate change emerged as a political

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Speaker 3: issue in the US in nineteen seventy nine, you have

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Speaker 3: the very first addition by the Senate of climatologists, because

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Speaker 3: you got two branches in the Democratic Party. One was

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Speaker 3: in favor of the energy policy plan of Jimmy Catur

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Speaker 3: and then otherwise very critical. So climate change at the

400
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Speaker 3: beginning was a of argument against this energy policy by

401
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Speaker 3: the president. Anyway, So in nineteen seventy seven, Jimmy Cato

402
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 3: use this idea of energy transition. It was to make future,

403
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Speaker 3: to make call a peer futuristic. You know, we are

404
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Speaker 3: not in coal mines, which are very poliutaying and so on.

405
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Speaker 3: We are doing an energy transition. That sounds much better, right,

406
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Speaker 3: And actually because right after the speech on TV, the

407
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 3: New York Times as an article saying that the US

408
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Speaker 3: and the world at the beginning of a new energy

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Speaker 3: transition or something like that, you know, So it was

410
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Speaker 3: a PR move basically, that's trute way, and that's to

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Speaker 3: a PR move. And shortly after this talk, energy transition

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Speaker 3: was taken up by you and O. There was a

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Speaker 3: conference on renewable energy in a will be a few

414
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Speaker 3: years later, and energy transition was over the place. It

415
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Speaker 3: is then taken up by the ECD like in Paris

416
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Speaker 3: and international organization, it becomes natural, Okay, everybody's talking about

417
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Speaker 3: energy transition. Interestingly enough, the environmentalist movement, which never talked

418
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Speaker 3: about energy transition before, after the President talked about it,

419
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 3: started to say, we have to do an energy transition

420
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Speaker 3: to solar energy. So really it's it's really this particular

421
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Speaker 3: time that really energy transition started to emerge. But really,

422
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Speaker 3: once again, at that time, energy transition could mean anything

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Speaker 3: like a pipeline in Alaska, it could be more call

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Speaker 3: in the US, it could be lequal affection of anything

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Speaker 3: that would increase energy sovereignty for the US again the

426
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Speaker 3: Middle East. That was really what the first out output

427
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 3: of energy transition discourse was really in this context, then

428
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Speaker 3: it was kind of forgotten in the I would say

429
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Speaker 3: that in the nineteen eighty there is a really low

430
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Speaker 3: point about discours around energy transition, and it re emerged

431
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Speaker 3: with climate change. And here it's really an issue about

432
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Speaker 3: the history of science. You got basically the same experts

433
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Speaker 3: what worked on the energy crisis became the experts of

434
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 3: the climate issue. And that's really why we've recycled this

435
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 3: wrong vision of energy dynamics from the nineteen seventies up

436
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 3: to now. That's really because they are the same kind

437
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 3: of economists, like energy economists fighting the energy crisis. A

438
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 3: few years later there would be climate economists fighting climate change,

439
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 3: and they would just recycle the same kind of theories.

440
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 3: Will have not else. It's probably the most famous one

441
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 3: Noble in economics for twenty eighteen. It's very clear basically

442
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 3: energy transition for him was a way to justify it

443
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 3: was the delay in tactics. In nineteen seventy three, you

444
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 3: write a paper on the energic crisis explaining that oil

445
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 3: is becoming more expensive. Should we economize oil conserve oil?

446
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 3: Not at all. On the contrary, we have to extract

447
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 3: all right now while it is expensive, because with the

448
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 3: breeder reactor oil might become obsolete at the end of

449
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 3: the twentieth century. This is the nineteen seventy three paid

450
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 3: Two years later, right, he wrote the very first paper

451
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 3: of climate economics, and he has the same reason. End

452
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 3: there is an issue about greenhire the effect. Does it

453
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 3: mean that we have to tighten our belt our energy belt?

454
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 3: Not at all. It would be so much easier to

455
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 3: do the energy transition later when we have the Buder reactor,

456
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 3: so it was really delaying tactics and energy transition was

457
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 3: really also relying on very strong hope around new clientergy

458
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 3: at the time.

459
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 4: You can see how reading your book, the concept of

460
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 4: the Breeder reactor just becomes a placeholder for future innovation

461
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 4: that we haven't come up with yet, but we will,

462
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 4: and therefore we don't need to change what we're doing

463
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 4: right now exactly.

464
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 3: William Ordas is also the introducer of a famous race

465
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 3: called backstop technology. Backstop technology it's a nondefined technology that

466
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 3: will save the bins in the future basically, So for

467
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 3: a long time it was Buder reactor and hydrogen. Now

468
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 3: it's cabon capturn storage. But when you read articles of

469
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 3: climate economy, they still have the hypothesis we assume there

470
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 3: is a backstop technology that at one hundred dollars per

471
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 3: ton of SEO two, you know, can capture SEO too

472
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 3: or whatever. Right, So it's a very abstract vision of technology,

473
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 3: very i mean, a deeply wrong vision of technological development.

474
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 3: But it is still with us today and.

475
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 4: You can see how it's such a useful narrative for

476
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,719
Speaker 4: the industry. You cite a memo from I think nineteen

477
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 4: eighty two, which of course it's a maybe it's not

478
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 4: a memo, but it's a speech, a document of some

479
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 4: kind from an Exxon executive, and of course it comes

480
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 4: back to Exxon, because it always does.

481
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's very yeah. Ed what David was

482
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 3: the chief of Excellent orang a very interesting character. He

483
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 3: was a science advisor of Nixon before that. And what

484
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 3: is interesting is that at the time Exon was not climatoscpe.

485
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 3: They were doing some serious research on climate change, but

486
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 3: they were transitionists. They were playing the transition book. I mean,

487
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 3: in this discourse that Excellent gives actually the invitation of

488
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 3: Jim Hansen, the very famous US climatologist. Edward David explained that,

489
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 3: of course there is climate change, of course there was

490
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 3: going Now the fact we all know that this is

491
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 3: all science not interesting. The interesting question is what will

492
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 3: confer the climate catastrophe or the energy transition. And it

493
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 3: was very astute to present the issue like this because

494
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 3: at that time cammatologists were actually very naive about the

495
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 3: energy transition. You can read article from the late nineteen

496
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 3: seventies by climatologists US climatologists explain that climate change will

497
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 3: have consequences, it would be sensible. I mean, you could

498
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 3: feel climate change by two thousand, It would have economic

499
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 3: consequences by twenty twenty, it would be catastrophic by twenty seventy.

500
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 3: When you write twenty seventy in nineteen seventy, it's in

501
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 3: science fiction. And so the reasoning goes that, of course

502
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 3: we have time to do an energy transition in the meantime,

503
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 3: you know, as if we knew how long it takes.

504
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 3: And this is not just particular climatologist. The Geneva Conference

505
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 3: on Climate Change in nineteen seventy nine explicitly the opening

506
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 3: quote of my book is from the conclusion of this conference.

507
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 3: They say that climate change really have very serious effect

508
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: by twenty fifty, but that leaves us time to redirect agriculture, industry,

509
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 3: in the whole economy. Basically, you know, there was a

510
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 3: really very big yes nafety and trust in technology as well.

511
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 4: And in the meantime we should continue. We have to

512
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 4: continue to use fossil fuels, because otherwise, how will we

513
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 4: have the resources and the energy to allow the free

514
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 4: market and industry without interference from government to come up

515
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 4: with the solutions to just as it always has in

516
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 4: the past, as right.

517
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's another I mean connected to this idea.

518
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 3: I mean, there is the idea of energy transition, which

519
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 3: very quickly seems kind of empty and not very convincing.

520
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 3: I mean, you've got several reports from the early nineteen

521
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 3: eighties in the US showing that they would not be

522
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 3: an energy transition, that that commachante will happen. The EPA

523
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty two published a report and I think

524
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 3: the title was can we delay global warming? Not can

525
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 3: we stop it? Can we just delay it?

526
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 4: Right?

527
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 3: The National Academy of Science in nineteen eighty three published

528
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 3: another important report and the title is very clear. It's

529
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 3: called changing climate. Climate is changing and we have to adapt. Actually, so,

530
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,479
Speaker 3: I think energy transition is a kind of you know,

531
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 3: a motto, a slogan, But the real issue is can

532
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 3: we adapt and very quickly? The I mean I've studied

533
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 3: rather the case of the US, but experts from the

534
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 3: US were convinced that the US could cope with plus

535
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 3: two or press through degrees. That's I mean, there would be,

536
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 3: of course difficulties, but as not such a big deal

537
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 3: in a way and too bad for the other. I mean,

538
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 3: they're perfectly aware that from you know, Bengal or other

539
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 3: countries that would be much more difficult. But the idea

540
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 3: that you could sacrifice world economic growth for the survival

541
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 3: or the safety of the poorest part of the world

542
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 3: population seemed ludicrous. So there was a very strong dose

543
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 3: of cynicism, of realism in a way, but cynicism as well.

544
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 4: Can you talk about actually how the notion of economic

545
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 4: growth intersects with the transition narrative, because then you point

546
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 4: out at one point that the transition narrative in some

547
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 4: ways enables the idea of perpetual future growth to go

548
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 4: unchallenged as kind of to be taken as conventional wisdom.

549
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean basically, the I think most of the

550
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 3: expertise on climate mitigation it's not so much about you know,

551
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: saving the climate. It's rather about saving economic growth. It's

552
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 3: about imagining all the transformation most of them are completely

553
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 3: unrealistic that would allow economic growth to continue or i

554
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 3: mean business to continue just as before without damaging the climate.

555
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 3: I mean, when you when you look at the the

556
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 3: history of the I p c C, and especially the

557
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 3: third group of the IPCC, which is really the one

558
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 3: in charge of studying mitigation. UH in the archives you

559
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 3: can see that for the US government that was really

560
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 3: its role. The explicity states our our aim is not

561
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,760
Speaker 3: to save the climate. It is to save the economy

562
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 3: from the consequences of climate which is a different, different

563
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 3: question and interestingly interestingly enough one I mean the first

564
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 3: chair of IPCC Group three was called it was openly

565
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 3: climate or skeptics, is Robert Weinstein. He works in the

566
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 3: US and you know he doesn't believe in climate change.

567
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 3: And it takes his order from Johnson Nunu who with

568
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 3: the chief of staff of George Bush father and basically

569
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 3: George U Johnson new orders him to play the technology card.

570
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 3: I mean, do not talk about, you know, the level

571
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 3: of emission or economic growth or compensation to countries affected

572
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 3: by climate change. Talk about technology. I mean, the US

573
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 3: has to bet on technology. And that makes perfect sense.

574
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 3: I mean Robert Ronshein at this very moment we are

575
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 3: talking about nineteen ninety one nineteen ninety two is also

576
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 3: the US representative to the Radio Conference on Climate on

577
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 3: the Environment in general, and for the US delegation makes

578
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 3: perfect sense, you know, to talk about technology. The US

579
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 3: at that time was the first dimeter was also the

580
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 3: first technological power, so it makes sense to play the

581
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 3: technology card. I mean, it's it's quite straightforward in a way.

582
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, And you can really see the emergent of corporate

583
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 4: social responsibility what for a time was called ESG or

584
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 4: stakeholder capitalism, all these different versions of corporations, industry taking

585
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 4: seriously and working to quote unquote solve the climate crisis.

586
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 4: You can see how all of these ideas are so

587
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 4: useful to them. They can say, yes, we're working on

588
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 4: developing future technologies to save us in the future. You

589
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 4: distinguish it from climate denial because in a lot of ways,

590
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 4: climate denial was an old ideology that stopped serving them

591
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 4: well decades ago. A much more effective and insidious one

592
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 4: is accepting that there is a problem and saying we're

593
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 4: working on it in the future. And that becomes a

594
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,280
Speaker 4: delay tactic as you point out that they can deploy

595
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 4: pretty much indefinitely all the way up to today's corporate sustainability,

596
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 4: whatever you want to call it.

597
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 3: I think that's why the discourse of nineteen eighty two

598
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 3: by Edward David, the guy from Mexican is so interesting

599
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 3: because it's really like the founding stone of this transition

600
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 3: is playbook about the I mean, you know, we are

601
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 3: we're aware, we are concerned, and we're working on it,

602
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 3: you know, but let us do it. Basically, we are

603
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 3: the people in charge. We've got the money, we've got

604
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 3: the NoHo, we have the R and D Department, and

605
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 3: we will solve it. I mean, this really became central

606
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 3: at the RIO Conference of nineteen ninety two. The General

607
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 3: Secretary of the conference was a Canadian called Maurice Strong.

608
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 3: He was also a US an old businessman story working

609
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 3: for a Canadian old company, and he was a part

610
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 3: of all sorts of influential investors and you know, important people.

611
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 3: And basically his motto was, we need to integrate multinationals.

612
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 3: Multinationals are the key because they're the one who can

613
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 3: solve this. Who they create a problem, they will solve

614
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 3: the issue. And I think it had as it has

615
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 3: had a significant consequence on the IPCC because when you

616
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,919
Speaker 3: look at the experts working for the IPC Group three,

617
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 3: you can be struck that there are so many employees

618
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 3: of all companies, of electrical companies, of automobile industry, there

619
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,919
Speaker 3: are you know, people from the industry. It was really

620
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 3: what the IPCC was about. Once again, if you go

621
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 3: back to US archives, the US government in nineteen eighty eight,

622
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 3: when the IPCC is created, explicitly says that we need

623
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 3: to put the government into the loop. When the IPCC

624
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 3: is created, there was already an international organization and climate

625
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 3: change which had been set up by the World World

626
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 3: Metorogical Organization and the UN Environmental Program. They had really

627
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 3: very big ambitions like reducing bio quarters two emissions in

628
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 3: twenty years or no even less in fifteen years, which

629
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 3: seemed completely crazy to the US government, And they say,

630
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 3: we need to create a new expert body. And the

631
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 3: important letter in IPCC is the eye. It's inter governmental

632
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 3: and not international. So what the US and probably Britain

633
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 3: wanted was to that the government would designate people from

634
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 3: you know, not just environmental ministries or research ministry, but

635
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 3: they also wanted people from the agricultural ministry, from the industry,

636
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 3: from energy ministry and so and so force. And that's

637
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 3: why we've got so much from I mean expertise coming

638
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 3: from the industry. And I mean you could say that

639
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 3: it's kind of conspiracy theory, but when you look at

640
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 3: the story of CCS, carbon capture. It is quite clear

641
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 3: that you know, they actually succeeded. And how come there

642
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,760
Speaker 3: is so much about cabin capturing storage in the IPC

643
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 3: groups through report. How come that carbon neutrality depends on

644
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 3: so much negative emissions.

645
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,399
Speaker 4: I think with technologies that don't even exist yet, right.

646
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 3: They exist in a very marginal way, in very specific

647
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,959
Speaker 3: they exist to actually extract more oil. The only place

648
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 3: where you really captures you two is when you want

649
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 3: to make what is called enhance oil recovery. Basically you

650
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 3: inject you two in old oil wells to get more

651
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 3: more of it, you know, to to put pressure in

652
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 3: the in the oil walls. The only place where you

653
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 3: really do cts on a significant scale, like fifty million

654
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 3: tons per year. But when I'm saying that the IPCC

655
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 3: Group three the net zero scenario relies really a lot

656
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 3: on negative emissions, is because they expect ten gigatons of

657
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 3: carbon capturing storage, not fifty million tones, ten gigatons, ten

658
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 3: billion tones. You know, it's it's just a crazy number.

659
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 3: It is completely meaningless in a way. And interestingly enough,

660
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 3: when you look at the history of CC, I've done

661
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 3: that in a recent article. It's not in the book

662
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 3: it's actually an article which just out. For a long

663
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 3: period of time, CCS was considered as not very serious because,

664
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,919
Speaker 3: I mean, if you want to do electricity from coal

665
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 3: with CCS, for every two power plants, you need to

666
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 3: build a third power plant just to produce electricity to

667
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 3: power the CCS unit. It's a complete waste of NFD

668
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 3: of money of resort anyway, So it was considered as

669
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 3: completely ridiculous even by the IPCC in the early two

670
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 3: thousand and then the oil industry pushed CCS from nineteen

671
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 3: ninety to onward, saying that's really important technology. We publish

672
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 3: a lot of papers, we even create journals on CCS,

673
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 3: you know, like peer review journals. But actually they were

674
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 3: reflecting the oil industry interest. And in two thousand and

675
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 3: five the IPCC published a special report on CCS and

676
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 3: that really changed the statues of the technology. From a

677
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 3: very abuse technology, it became a central element for carbon neutrality.

678
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 3: And when you look at the reference of this report,

679
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 3: most of the reference they come from the old industry,

680
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 3: all the Fossiphius in general Russia. So I mean that's

681
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 3: why I think that we have read to understand that

682
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 3: the expertise on mitigation is co produced with different lobbies.

683
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 3: It's not like abstract knowledge. It's not like the interested scientists.

684
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 3: It's it's it's more problematic than that and more interesting

685
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 3: in a way. You've got groups of industries fighting to

686
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 3: put their own technologies and they produce papers, which is

687
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 3: completely natural. It's normal. It's not like a conspiracy. It is,

688
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 3: you know, how science works in a way it is,

689
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 3: of course, it depends on funding from companies, especially when

690
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 3: it is applied science. All the science and hydrogen on

691
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 3: CCS on kind of farfedge technologies or complex technologies. It

692
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 3: is really applied science, and it's it's co produced with

693
00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 3: specific industries.

694
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 4: And then in some ways it it's laundered through the

695
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 4: IPCC or other organizations institutions that we rightly in a

696
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 4: lot of ways treat as objective scientific research bodies. And

697
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 4: then you have CCS go from something along the lines

698
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 4: of I almost laughed, but laughing to keep from crying

699
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 4: reading the part in the book about the giant co

700
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 4: two lakes buried in the ocean or something. CCS is

701
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 4: sitting alongside those, and then it comes through this laundering

702
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 4: process and it comes out as basically the plan for

703
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 4: humanity to save the planet.

704
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 3: I don't want to really. I mean, in a way,

705
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 3: the modelers making these ridiculous scenarios, we can pity them

706
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 3: because we basically ask an impossible task. Right, Well, find

707
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 3: a scenario where we reach carbon neutrality without touching so

708
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 3: much the economy. You know, we'll have the same kind

709
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 3: of world with the same kind of movement, travels, agriculture,

710
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 3: ands on. But without THEATO. It's an impossible task. And

711
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 3: of course they want to introduce these ridiculous technologies they

712
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 3: have only I mean, the only way they can do that.

713
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,439
Speaker 3: But I mean, the problem is that you can read

714
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 3: it both ways. You can say that. And actually they

715
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,359
Speaker 3: explained that they did that around two thousand and five

716
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 3: twenty ten, basically to push government to be ambitious, to

717
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,879
Speaker 3: show that carbon neutrality was possible, and in a way,

718
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 3: the Paris Agreement of twenty fifteen to respect two degree

719
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 3: warming was really made possible thanks to these scenarios. How

720
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 3: even if they're absurd, they had this advantage. So but

721
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 3: that's one positive bready reading. The more negative reading would

722
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 3: be that they introduce false hopes and a false sense

723
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 3: of safety. I mean, it gives the impression that you

724
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 3: got competent engineers that in the end will solve the problem.

725
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 3: And this is really depoliticizing the issue. It's really like

726
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 3: infantilizing the population because they are I mean, we have

727
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 3: been sold you false promises in a way, and I

728
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,760
Speaker 3: think it's it prevented us to have a more political

729
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 3: discussion or on climate change. I think a more adult

730
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 3: conversation would be that there will be ZEO two in

731
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 3: the economy in twenty fifty because there are many sectors

732
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 3: that we don't really know how to decabanize or not

733
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 3: a scale. So the key question, the key discussion, democratic

734
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 3: discussion that we need to have is, I mean, where

735
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 3: do we put this year to, where do we invest it?

736
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 3: What is the CEU two that is vital, that is necessary,

737
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 3: and the CEO two that is about luxualy consumption for instance.

738
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:38,879
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's really something we should be able

739
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 3: to discuss without being treated as kind of a dangerous

740
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 3: de grosser or whatever. No, it's just the only reasonable

741
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 3: way to frame the issue.

742
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 4: There's something you point out toward the end of the book.

743
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 4: It was a real mental shift for me. It stems

744
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 4: from everything that we've talked about here. And from everything

745
00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 4: that you argue in the book leading up to this point.

746
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 4: It you know that the rise of wind and solar

747
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 4: power is treated as quote equivalent to the disappearance of

748
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 4: fossil fuels. And I had always thought of it just

749
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 4: like that, that the salvation would come in the spread

750
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 4: of solar panels and turbines around the world. But as

751
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 4: you point out, green innovation and decarbonization are not the

752
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 4: same thing at all, and we misunderstand that at our peril.

753
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 3: I mean, the book is certainly not against renewable energy.

754
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 3: It's the only right, the only good news in a way,

755
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 3: the fact that solar panels are cheap and there are

756
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 3: extensively used in the pool world to diminish a consumption

757
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 3: of coal. So that's the only good news. But we

758
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 3: have to recognize that it is a necessary step, but

759
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 3: it's insufficient. Basically, renewables are interesting technologies to produce electricity,

760
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 3: but electricity production is just forty percent of emissions. Then

761
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 3: you've got all the rest where renewable are not that

762
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 3: interesting and not that usual. I mean, to produce cement, steel, plastic, fertilizer,

763
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 3: food in general. You know you don't do that with

764
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 3: sort panels, it's not true. Another way to put it

765
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 3: is we can talk about a transition in the electricity sector,

766
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 3: but probably not in the rest of the economy. So

767
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 3: there is a big difference between putting solar panels and

768
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 3: windmills and decarbonizing the whole economy, which is much bigger

769
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 3: than the electricity sector. And one possibility, and probably the

770
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 3: most probable, is that in the next decades there will

771
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 3: be more and more so called green electricity that we

772
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 3: power the world that will remain deeply entrenched in fossil

773
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 3: fuels for all the rest beat the production of materials

774
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 3: still is a good example, of course, but also the

775
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 3: production food. I mean, in the book, I haven't touched

776
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 3: a panago culture, but it's actually a key, key topic,

777
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 3: Like between twenty and thirty percent of green house gases

778
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 3: come from agriculture, where the idea of transition and energy

779
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 3: transition is probably not very well adapted, you know. So

780
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 3: I mean we have to realize that. I think one

781
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 3: important thing is to recognize that we don't know how

782
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 3: to do that. Nobody has the solution, and we need

783
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 3: to discuss that in a very you know, clear minded

784
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 3: way and in a also more political way, because the

785
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 3: idea of energy transition is at the end of the book.

786
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 3: I said, this is the ideology of capital in the

787
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 3: twenty first century. It is obvious when you think about it.

788
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 3: You know, thanks to energy transition, all big companies they

789
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 3: are on the right side because they can invest, they

790
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 3: can innovate and so on. It's it's really a powerful

791
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 3: tool to depoliticize the issue. And I think a big

792
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 3: part of the of the KMIC discussion should be on

793
00:48:55,440 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 3: about redistribution, the redistribution of the emissions, to whom to

794
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 3: do what? That should be really a key aspect of

795
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,359
Speaker 3: the discussion, and it isn't. Even in the climate movement.

796
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 3: It is not so much framed as a as a

797
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 3: I mean it used to be framed like that actually

798
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 3: has an equity issue. When you when you look at

799
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 3: philosophy papers or six papers of the nineteen nineties, I

800
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 3: mean they will talk about that about luxury emissions and

801
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 3: vital emissions and how to distinguish between them, and how

802
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 3: climate change is released on a program of equity and

803
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 3: and and how unjust it is and no more and

804
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,280
Speaker 3: more the discourse has shifted to a technology it's about

805
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 3: when your boards are good for cyphils are bad, you know,

806
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 3: something like that. A very many key and visions of

807
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 3: the material world, actually technologies are completely intertwined and materially connected.

808
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 4: One of the points you make towards the end of

809
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 4: the book is that, and you alluded to it, there

810
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 4: is the fact that we can't look to history for

811
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,760
Speaker 4: a path towards what we have to do in the future.

812
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 4: And you can see how the transition is again very

813
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 4: soothing because from this false history we have a sort

814
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 4: of a false path forward towards solving this problem without

815
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 4: any disruption the industry or anyone else. Can you just

816
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 4: explain that a little bit more of that idea that

817
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 4: we're what we have to do is unprecedented and if

818
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,399
Speaker 4: we are to look, if we are to figure it out,

819
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 4: then the place to find out how to do that

820
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 4: will not be what we've done before. Because it's another

821
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 4: one of those points that I think sounds really simple

822
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 4: but is actually quite profound and quite a shift for

823
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 4: a lot of people, including me.

824
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 3: Remember Jimmy Cartell saying that we have done two transitions

825
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:41,800
Speaker 3: in the past, we need to do a third transition.

826
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 3: It's absurd, of course, because at that time Cole was

827
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 3: also very important in the nineteen seventies US. Obviously, more

828
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 3: recently you've got John Kerry, the US and voy for

829
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 3: Climate Change, explaining that the energy transition is like a

830
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 3: new industrial evolution, as if there was something from the

831
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 3: Industrial Revolution analogous to what we have to do. And

832
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 3: this is not the case at all. It's really what

833
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 3: I want to emphasize. I mean, we have never done

834
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 3: an energy transition. Just to give you an example. Most

835
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,439
Speaker 3: of the time, the Industrial Revolution, as it is told

836
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 3: to students, and how John Carey must have remembered it

837
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 3: is it is a shift from wood to call. But

838
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 3: in fact wood energy is increasing in the nineteenth century,

839
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 3: and it's even worse than that. To extract cold you

840
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 3: need a lot of fruit, to the point that Britain

841
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 3: in the twentieth century used more wood in the form

842
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 3: of simper mining than it had burned in the eighteenth century.

843
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 3: So just forget about this idea of massive shift in

844
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 3: the past. The history, the material history of humanity, is

845
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 3: the history of expansion of everything, the symbiotic expansion of everything.

846
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 3: That's really what we have done. It doesn't mean that

847
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 3: I mean technologies improved and were becoming more efficient obviously,

848
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,160
Speaker 3: and for instance, the carbon intensity of the economy from

849
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 3: the nineteen eighties has been divided by two. So I

850
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 3: mean there is technological progress, it's not the issue. But

851
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,760
Speaker 3: despite this increasing efficiency, the sew tre emissions keep rising.

852
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:15,479
Speaker 3: So I mean the thing is believing that with solar

853
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 3: panels and windmills where on the threshold of a complete

854
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 3: material evolution is an illusion. And to give you another

855
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 3: historical example, because I say that history is useless to

856
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 3: understand what we have to do, but it is useful

857
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 3: to understand the misunderstanding of what we have to do.

858
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 3: For instance, in the nineteen twenties, thanks to electricity, industrially

859
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 3: discarded the old steam engines and replace them with electric

860
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 3: engines electric motors. Electric motors are extremely efficient compared to

861
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 3: steam engine. When you do that to divide by ten

862
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 3: the carbon intensity of industrial force machines, it's an enormous progress. Right.

863
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 3: That happened in the after World War One, basically in

864
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 3: the US during World War one and after World War One. Today,

865
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,760
Speaker 3: when you replace a gas power plant with a solar

866
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 3: panel complex, you divide by ten the carbon intensity of electricity.

867
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 3: So we have been there before. I mean, solar panels

868
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 3: and windmills are just part of the history of technological progress.

869
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 3: They're not a massive shift in the history of the

870
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 3: material history of humanity. And it's even worse for electric cars.

871
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,320
Speaker 3: Of course they're better than Petroum car, but they're certainly

872
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 3: not zero emission. This is of course a lie. So

873
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 3: I mean, I think we have to really understand that

874
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:49,439
Speaker 3: what climatologists explained that we need to do is really unprecedented.

875
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 3: I mean, even at a natural scale. It's very difficult

876
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 3: to see countries really getting out of coal or gas

877
00:53:56,239 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 3: or oil, I mean very often. I mean recently papers

878
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 3: explained that Britain has escaped calls as really exiited call. Actually, no,

879
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 3: Britain is still using a lot of call for in

880
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:12,799
Speaker 3: its import the British way of love, or the French

881
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:14,879
Speaker 3: way of life, or the Norwegian way of life. Those

882
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 3: countries that don't burn call anymore depends on call because

883
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 3: we import so many goods and we you steal and

884
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 3: so on. That depends on call. So once again, I

885
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 3: mean we have to underline the fact that energy transition

886
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 3: is really based on a false history. It projects a

887
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 3: false history onto a very shadowy future.

888
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 4: You're right, getting out of carbon will be far more

889
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,399
Speaker 4: difficult than getting out of capitalism, and that really puts

890
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 4: the scale of the challenge if we are seeing reality

891
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 4: clearly in perspective.

892
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not going to pretend that I completely

893
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 3: agnostic about that, but I think getting out of capitalism

894
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,879
Speaker 3: is probably one of, I mean, one step that could

895
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:59,399
Speaker 3: help to get out of the rules for a very

896
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:03,800
Speaker 3: simple reason. It's because, I mean, if you if you

897
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 3: define capitalism by the you know, private property of the

898
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:10,800
Speaker 3: means of production, then of course it's still very lucrative

899
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:13,760
Speaker 3: to extract oil, so you know, all will be extracted.

900
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:17,280
Speaker 3: I mean, so you really need a very strong political

901
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 3: decision to say we don't invest anymore in these in

902
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 3: these sectors. So it's a kind of control of capital.

903
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 3: It's not necessarily like the Bolshevik revolution, but it's really

904
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 3: a very very serious and stringent control of you know

905
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:35,839
Speaker 3: what that is authorized, what is accept acceptable. But when

906
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 3: I say it's more difficult, because you know, you could

907
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:40,800
Speaker 3: I could easily imagine that and in a way, in

908
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 3: a way, in many countries the energy sector is nationalized,

909
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 3: like in France, df is a national company, a British

910
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 3: call for a long time was a national company in Britain.

911
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 3: Know it's it's quite common to have a kind of

912
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 3: public energy providers, but it's very difficult to imagine not

913
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 3: using all guests anymore into the gates. That's something which

914
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 3: as an historian, I really have difficulty to imagine, know it.

915
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 4: John Beptiz, thanks so much for writing this book and

916
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 4: for this conversation.

917
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,320
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Adam for having me.

918
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 5: This time of year, everyone talks about going dry, but

919
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 5: at Athletic Brewing Company, we're skipping that because we prefer

920
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:40,360
Speaker 5: going athletic, which isn't dried. All. From crisp goldens to

921
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 5: hoppy IPAs and limited releases in between, you'll find something

922
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 5: that fits your style. Every single non alcoholic brew is

923
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 5: packed with flavor and the same craft experience you love.

924
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 5: So yeah, you could call it dry, but there's really

925
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,399
Speaker 5: nothing dry about it. Find your new favorite near beer

926
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,359
Speaker 5: at Athleticbrewing dot com. Athletic Brewing Company Fit for all

927
00:56:59,520 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 5: times