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Speaker 1: Hellow, we're starting to fall apart without Sophie. We really are.

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Speaker 1: This is cool people who did cool stuff. I'm Maggie,

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Speaker 1: that's Sharine. There's no Sophie. There's no Sophie. There's no

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Speaker 1: power where you are, So that's true. I'm literally recording

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Speaker 1: this on my backup battery because I'm a prepper and

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Speaker 1: my power is out because I live. Yeah, and y'all

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Speaker 1: are worth it. This is what how do you mean

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Speaker 1: to us? That's right? Ian as our audio engineer on

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Speaker 1: Woman wrote our theme music, and Stonewall is why I

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Speaker 1: briefly had rights as a transperson. That's what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about today, Stonewall. This is part four. Go listen to

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Speaker 1: the other parts. Yes, or you're a sucker. What are

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Speaker 1: you fucking doing if you're not doing that together? So

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Speaker 1: Stonewall is sort of used to getting rated. They paid

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Speaker 1: off the cops, so they usually had a heads up

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Speaker 1: when the cops rolled in. The bartenders would jump over

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Speaker 1: the bar and pretend to be patrons so they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: get singled out, which is pretty clever, honestly. And usually

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Speaker 1: they got rated, like I said, early in the night

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Speaker 1: and on weeknights, but not this time. On weekends, the

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Speaker 1: bars crowded as fuck. The floor plans say maximum occupancy

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Speaker 1: was around one hundred and eighty people or some shit,

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Speaker 1: but there were usually at least two hundred people there

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Speaker 1: on weekends. At the time of the raid. There were

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Speaker 1: like different estimates put it between like two hundred two

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Speaker 1: hundred and ten or so people. And there's no fire

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Speaker 1: exits in this place that has already burned only a

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Speaker 1: few years back, like five years earlier. This place is burned.

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Speaker 1: There's no fire exits and no crowding it because people

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Speaker 1: are desperate fucking dance. Yeah, I mean life back then

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Speaker 1: wasn't exactly great. Yeah, you gotta get your kicks where

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Speaker 1: you or you could, right, right, So now we're going

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Speaker 1: to introduce this week's villain. Though he's kind of a

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Speaker 1: he's like an anti villain, Like he's still a villain,

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Speaker 1: but you know how like an anti hero is like

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Speaker 1: a hero who kind of sucks. Right, he's the villain,

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Speaker 1: but he's that doesn't suck completely. Yeah, I mean, he's

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Speaker 1: like doing awful, awful things. His actions absolutely suck, but

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Speaker 1: his like motivation is interesting. It's a clash of moralities.

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Speaker 1: His name is Deputy police Inspector seymour Pine, and he's

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Speaker 1: a veteran cop. He's been a cop almost thirty years

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Speaker 1: by nineteen sixty nine. He took a break from being

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Speaker 1: a cop to go fight the Nazis. And he had

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Speaker 1: the specific unique thing going for him that set him

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Speaker 1: aside from other cops at the time. He wasn't corrupt.

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Speaker 1: WHOA wow, ye, I didn't expect that to be what

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Speaker 1: you were going to say, to be honest, surprise, surprise.

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Speaker 1: And what I find so interesting about this guy, what

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Speaker 1: I kind of like about him is, from my point

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Speaker 1: of view, this is like strong evidence against the institution

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Speaker 1: of police, because this guy should have ruled. He wanted

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Speaker 1: to do what was right. He was actually and genuinely

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Speaker 1: a lawful person as far as I can tell, but

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Speaker 1: since laws are shitty, judges a morality, he runs around

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Speaker 1: and puts people into cages for a living. And and

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Speaker 1: he probably wasn't personally a bigot, but he was an

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Speaker 1: agent of a bigoted system. And the difference matters inasmuch

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Speaker 1: as we can understand those systems and dismantle them. And

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Speaker 1: years later he said, quote, if what I did helped

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Speaker 1: gay people, then I'm glad. Well yeah, and he's not

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Speaker 1: being self congratulatory. I think he's acknowledging his role in

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Speaker 1: this like bad system. In a later documentary, he says, quote,

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Speaker 1: you knew they broke the law, but what kind of

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Speaker 1: law was it? Well, okay, see wore Okay, yeah, I know.

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Speaker 1: I mean he's about to go beat up people and

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Speaker 1: fondle their genitals and shit. Like he's not like, he's like,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know it's gonna going that far down. Okay, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean like because because that's because he's rating the place, right,

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Speaker 1: and that's was involved in rating a place. And he

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Speaker 1: talks a bunch on TV shows and shit about that

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Speaker 1: night about how they saw themselves as fighting the mafia,

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Speaker 1: but that they arrested gay people as a part of

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Speaker 1: it to boost their arrest numbers, because arresting gay people

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Speaker 1: was so easy because quote, they never gave you any trouble. Well,

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Speaker 1: but you know, so he raided Stonewall specifically what happened

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Speaker 1: first as two women undercover went in posing as a

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Speaker 1: butch fem couple. At least one of them had been

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Speaker 1: coming to the bar for a while. It's just pretend

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Speaker 1: they're ganging. In quotes, they just love to do that,

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Speaker 1: loves to role play. Okay, yeah, exactly. Yeah, So this

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Speaker 1: woman posing as a gay woman who may or may

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Speaker 1: not have been posing, you know who knows. Yeah, one

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Speaker 1: twenty in the morning, they raid. They've given no warnings.

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Speaker 1: The bars crowded as fuck, everyone's drunk, and the night

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Speaker 1: was like really getting going, and a tiny handful of

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Speaker 1: cops think they could take the place down, like literally,

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Speaker 1: that guy Pines walks in and says police were taking

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Speaker 1: the place him. I think it's so. I've read four

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Speaker 1: and I've read eight, and there's a I'm sure someone

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Speaker 1: knows the exact actual answer, but still very little people. Wait,

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Speaker 1: So at this point, sorry if I'm dropping around. At

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Speaker 1: this point, the mafia is a protecting them anymore, Like

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Speaker 1: they're not getting paid off, So they are. But what

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Speaker 1: it is is he works for the vice squad the

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Speaker 1: public morality right, okay squad or whatever, and so he

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Speaker 1: is not part of the paid off cops. An actually

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Speaker 1: tension between the paid off cops and him play a

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Speaker 1: role in it later Okay, okay, good to know. And

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Speaker 1: so Maggie Jigs are acid dealing bartender. She jumps over

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Speaker 1: the bar with the money when and then when the

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Speaker 1: cops question her, she's like, oh, this is my money

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Speaker 1: as a cigarette girl, and they let her go. And

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Speaker 1: later later the mafia is like, all right, you got

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Speaker 1: away with the money, right, and she's like, oh no,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. They they got it all fucking badass, I know. Um,

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Speaker 1: So they demand ID s making to make sure everyone

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Speaker 1: is dressed in gender appropriate clothing, and the cops are

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Speaker 1: saying all kinds of homophobic shit that I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to repeat. Mister Pine is clearly not stopping them. Maybe

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Speaker 1: he's doing it himself, and and some of the queens

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Speaker 1: are like, you know what, fuck you fuck this, And

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Speaker 1: people start refusing to show ID, and they like pull

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Speaker 1: all the queens aside to one place and like show

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Speaker 1: ID and like start being really shitty and and they're

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Speaker 1: like not fuck you. And so the cops like, fine,

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Speaker 1: we're resting basically everyone, but a crowd is starting to

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Speaker 1: gather outside. This is the fucking gighborhood. And so as

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Speaker 1: arrested people are let out of the bar, they start

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Speaker 1: like striking poses and the bar and the crowd is

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Speaker 1: like shouting out, like applause meter range, I give it

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Speaker 1: a seven. You know, as the incredible. Yeah, yeah, And

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Speaker 1: a pigmobile shows up to take the arrest rested people

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Speaker 1: a van arrest vanum, and the crowd starts changing and

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Speaker 1: people start to boo no. Someone shouts gay power and

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Speaker 1: they start singing we shall overcome okay, and the cops

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Speaker 1: they call for backup. They get on their radio, they

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Speaker 1: offer backup, and then, as I've heard it, someone unknown

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Speaker 1: with a police radio was basically like, never mind that

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Speaker 1: order ignore it. Well, that is some I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: like cinematic shit, you know, it's just like, yeah, sneaky.

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Speaker 1: And so there's like two main guesses about what this is,

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Speaker 1: and the most likely one is that the corrupt cops

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Speaker 1: from I can't remember what precincts, six precincts or something,

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Speaker 1: they're like, what the fuck, don't shut down? Or a

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Speaker 1: cash cow they're like, no, don't send back up, you know,

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Speaker 1: because they get paid a fuck ton of money. Do

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Speaker 1: he takes place from going down? Yeah? They get paid

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Speaker 1: enough to never worry about anything ever again. Yeah, totally. Um,

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Speaker 1: if you pay me two thousand dollars a week now,

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Speaker 1: i'd be set, you know, yeah, I would protect you

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Speaker 1: until I tie. Yeah, And it's also possible that there

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Speaker 1: was a gay activist with a radio in the place,

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Speaker 1: and then the the like least likely but sort of

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Speaker 1: fun thing that I've someone says maybe it was that

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Speaker 1: gig the lady cop was like getting second thoughts, you know,

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Speaker 1: that very likely. I think my first thought was that

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Speaker 1: like someone stole the radio, but it probably was one

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Speaker 1: of the cops. That that's also possible. Yeah, my thought

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Speaker 1: was like someone sold the radio and they were like nope,

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Speaker 1: just kidding, yeah, no, which which would be that would

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Speaker 1: be the coolest thing. Yeah, you know. And so there's

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Speaker 1: an awful lot of what sit off the riot talk.

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Speaker 1: It's part of the everyone trying to own stonewall thing

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Speaker 1: because people want to not also because people want to

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Speaker 1: not be left out right. So a lot of it

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Speaker 1: is like oh, this trans woman through the first brick

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Speaker 1: or whatever, or you know, um, and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of different but there's a lot of different inciting incidents

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Speaker 1: and what I think matters. So I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: say this one was first. This one wasn't first. What

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Speaker 1: I'm going to say is that this riot was something

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Speaker 1: else participated in by the larger queer community. Um, there's

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Speaker 1: like almost not an identity that isn't represented in this riot.

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Speaker 1: And there were a lot of inciting incidents, and first

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Speaker 1: and foremost, I will also say some of the stuff

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Speaker 1: I've seen about this is like, and then the violence

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Speaker 1: started when someone punched back, and I'm like, that's not No.

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Speaker 1: Violence starts when someone hits someone, which the cops are

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Speaker 1: doing already. The cops started the violence. What gets called

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Speaker 1: the violence is when it suddenly becomes two way violence. Interesting,

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Speaker 1: I mean checks out as far as cop behavior goes,

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Speaker 1: yea wi yeah, And so you know, because okay, the police.

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Speaker 1: There's not only the violence of forcing people to strip

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Speaker 1: so you can like see or grab their fucking junk,

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Speaker 1: but also, for example, a queen who was being let

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Speaker 1: out the door was punched in the face by a cop.

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Speaker 1: In response, queens started throwing coins at the cop. A reference,

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Speaker 1: they started throwing pennies, basically being like, hey, we already

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Speaker 1: bought you bitches, Like what the fuck are you doing?

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Speaker 1: You know, here's the more money, fuck you? You know. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a butch lesbian in men's clothes who really actively

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Speaker 1: wanted to not get arrested. This was probably a black

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Speaker 1: lesbian named Stormy de Laverney. She denied this for years,

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Speaker 1: and then later she was like, yeah, it was me.

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Speaker 1: She got led to the policeman, but she broke free

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Speaker 1: and got back to the crowd, so the cops grabbed

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Speaker 1: her again, took her to the police fan, so she

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Speaker 1: broke free again. This happened repeatedly. Finally she shouted, why

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Speaker 1: don't you guys do something, and then probably decked a cop. Well,

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Speaker 1: another inciting incident, and that last one is the one

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Speaker 1: that has the most eyewitness accounts. Another inciting incident was

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Speaker 1: a stocking and high healed leg kicked a cop in

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Speaker 1: the chest from inside the arrest wagon. But the image

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Speaker 1: is beautiful to me. And then another queen smashes a

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Speaker 1: cop with her purse. Meanwhile, some handcuffed people escape, including

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Speaker 1: our man, the skull, the mother ed Murphy. I would

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Speaker 1: be surprised if they were able to keep him in restraint.

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Speaker 1: It I know custody at all well, And the way

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Speaker 1: he gets away, at least the way he says that

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Speaker 1: they got away, and there's no reason to disbelieve him,

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Speaker 1: is he's handcuffed to another guy. And so they hop

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Speaker 1: in a cab and the cabby is gay and speeds

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Speaker 1: them off. To another gay bar that's like a kink bar,

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Speaker 1: like a fetish bar, and the fetish guys are like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course we have handcuff keys and let them go.

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Speaker 1: That is so funny. I'm I know. Um. So back

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Speaker 1: at Stonewall, the cops are like, oh, this is this

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Speaker 1: is bad. We are outnumbered and also bad people. They

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Speaker 1: might not have realized the second part they should have,

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Speaker 1: but right not yeah, um, but they realized they're outnumbered.

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Speaker 1: Copwagons speed off with whoever they could get some speed

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Speaker 1: away on slash tires. One of the people who was

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Speaker 1: in this crowd is this anarchist folk singer named Dave

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Speaker 1: von Ronk, and he's straight. He just fucking hated cops. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was at the restaurant down the street. He's like,

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Speaker 1: oh shit, it's on. So this guy, Dave and Ronk,

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Speaker 1: he's not really remembered much now, but his mentees like

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Speaker 1: Bob Dylan are much more famous. Okay. And he wrote

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Speaker 1: the arrangement for House of the Rising Sun that everyone plays.

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Speaker 1: I'm usually kind of sick. Yeah. Yeah. The version of

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Speaker 1: the Animals play, which is the same as Bob Dylan's version,

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Speaker 1: is his version of it. Okay, I'm pretty sick of

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Speaker 1: that story. But then I listened to his version after

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Speaker 1: learning this fact, I actually really like it. He's a

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Speaker 1: way fucking better singer than Bob Dylan, although that doesn't

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Speaker 1: take a lot. Dan is a contentious I don't think

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Speaker 1: this is like he's a songwriter, you know, Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's let's go with that. He's my evidence that as

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Speaker 1: a man, you don't have to be good at singing

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Speaker 1: in order to make it, but women have to be

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Speaker 1: both good songwriters and fucking amazing vocalists. Yes, there are

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Speaker 1: many evidences of that. I think, yeah, both ways, So

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Speaker 1: I agree. I agree, Oh, Dave, he's in the crowd

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Speaker 1: and the cops grab him and they drag him inside

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Speaker 1: stonewall and they handcuff him to a radiator and beat

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Speaker 1: him almost to unconsciousness, and then they barricade the door

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Speaker 1: and lock themselves in from the rioting crowd outside so

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Speaker 1: they can beat him in peace. Like you know, I

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Speaker 1: think what it is is that they're like, they're scared

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Speaker 1: and outnumbered by this crowd that's become a riot, and

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Speaker 1: so they're like, fuck, get inside, get inside. And they're

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Speaker 1: like in the middle of arresting this guy, this is

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Speaker 1: my best yes, And so they drag him inside with

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Speaker 1: them and also locked in there with them as like

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Speaker 1: a reporter from I think The Village Voice who was

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Speaker 1: just like happy to be there and was like ah,

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Speaker 1: I was like hiding and then was like in the

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Speaker 1: bar well And so characters show up for this Yeah, yeah, totally,

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Speaker 1: and so they're all fucking the cops are barricaded inside

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Speaker 1: the place, and later, since they've beaten our guy dave up,

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Speaker 1: they have to charge him with assault. Because that's like literally,

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Speaker 1: whenever I hear someone got arrest for assaulting officer, I

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Speaker 1: assume it means they got assaulted by an officer. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's very good to assume. Yeah. And Pine, that cop

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Speaker 1: who you know, the one who was seeing more Pine, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: seemore Pine. He'd been in combat, right, And later he

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Speaker 1: said that being barricaded inside the club was the most

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Speaker 1: scared he'd been in his life. WHOA. And to that,

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Speaker 1: I say, good, Yeah, I mean I know he said

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Speaker 1: some nice things later, but that moment fucking good. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad he survived, I guess, right, But like, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I don't think it's helpful to have

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Speaker 1: that good apple because that's more are going to have

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Speaker 1: a good apple, Like I obviously I wish I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's what. That's not true. I was gonna say I

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Speaker 1: wish death to no one. That's not true. But I

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Speaker 1: do think sometimes that narrative and also just like it's

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Speaker 1: it's very convenient in retrospect to have that point of view. First,

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Speaker 1: there is no good thing at a good cop everywhere,

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Speaker 1: and so I think the narrative of like being like, oh, this,

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Speaker 1: this is an example of why we need them and

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Speaker 1: they have they're good yeah, morels or whatever, it's like, no,

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Speaker 1: it's just a fucking that's more prope cop shit. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Well, from my point of view, the fact

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Speaker 1: that he's a good cop is exactly why copying is bad, right,

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Speaker 1: And that's why there is no good cop is because

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Speaker 1: this person who should have been a good cop by

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Speaker 1: all standards. Yeah yeah, yeah, not corrupt, like literally all

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Speaker 1: this went down because he was trying to not be corrupt.

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Speaker 1: He went and oppressed the ship out of some people,

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Speaker 1: you know, and like literally the corrupt cops are like

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Speaker 1: more on the side of gays and even though they

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Speaker 1: probably hate gays more yeah, right, and all but they're

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Speaker 1: all selfishly financially motivated, right, they would never support the

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Speaker 1: mother was like, yeah, right, totally. So anyway, they're barricaded

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Speaker 1: inside the building. The crowd breaks out the window and

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Speaker 1: starts escorting lighter fluid into the room. Whoa. Um. But

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Speaker 1: then in the nick of the time, and just in

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Speaker 1: the nick of time from the cops point of view,

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Speaker 1: and probably from the folk singer's point of view, more

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Speaker 1: riot cops show up before they all get burned alive

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Speaker 1: in the building. Um, well that's the thing. It's like,

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Speaker 1: so that because he's handcuffed to a radiator and the

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Speaker 1: crowd's about to burn the building down, is it just

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Speaker 1: him inside with the cops and the greenwich the village voice,

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Speaker 1: Oh right, okay, yeah, no, all all of the patrons

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Speaker 1: have all been kicked out by now. Yeah, okay, so

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Speaker 1: the riot squad shows up, and they show up with

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Speaker 1: amazing deals on goods and services. I was genuinely hanging

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Speaker 1: on that word. I was like, what do you what

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Speaker 1: did they go with? No, they came bearing ads. I

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Speaker 1: guess I don't know. Okay, that's that's good, that's good.

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Speaker 1: Just go with it. All right, we're back and the

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Speaker 1: crowd didn't run. The riot cops show up, and they're

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Speaker 1: probably like, ow, stomp these fucking queers. I mean, they've

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Speaker 1: already gone through so much, like what backing down it?

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Speaker 1: Then it's like, right, yeah, yeah, why fucking bother in

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Speaker 1: for a penny and for throwing pennies at cops, in

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Speaker 1: for pounding cops. Yeah, So they form a kick line.

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Speaker 1: I think it's only a couple of people, but they

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Speaker 1: form a kick line and start doing like high kicks

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Speaker 1: and singing these songs as the riot cops approach. Because

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Speaker 1: I love queers, That's why they these all these imagery

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Speaker 1: is beautiful, you know, like, yeah, damn queers know how

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Speaker 1: to riot, I know, especially with this next line in

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Speaker 1: the melee, one source claims that a cop was a

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Speaker 1: bit so hard he needed medical treatment. That makes me

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Speaker 1: so happy, And I think that makes me sick, but

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Speaker 1: it makes me feeally happy to hear that. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: feel like that's my fighting style, to be honest. YEA

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Speaker 1: of all the fighting styles I've heard, I don't think

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Speaker 1: I would be able to like beat graceful or anything.

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Speaker 1: But I could bite someone, I believe you. So that's

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Speaker 1: that's my role. But yeah, beautiful, beautiful tactics all around. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The most grievous injury that happened at Stonewall riots as

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Speaker 1: a teenager, a queer teenager lost two fingers that were

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Speaker 1: slammed into a card door U. And that was the

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Speaker 1: and that was I mean, you know, it was more

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Speaker 1: ins and outs. But at three thirty five am, the

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Speaker 1: first day's riot was over, but the media covered it,

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Speaker 1: so crowds came out the next night also, And at

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Speaker 1: first it was like a big block party. The veterans

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Speaker 1: of the previous night took center stage and they like

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Speaker 1: kissed and posed for photos, and cheerleaders led chance of

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Speaker 1: gay power and it fucking rules. Right. The riot police came,

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Speaker 1: but there were thousands of people because the media basically

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Speaker 1: gave them promotion or like attention. Yeah, yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: the riot cops would attack, but these people already knew

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Speaker 1: what twenty twenty protesters later learned. B water when the

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Speaker 1: police approach, back up and reconvene, you know, so the

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Speaker 1: cops would like make an attack and everyone just back off. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Martha P. Johnson, she's the super red Black queen. She's

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Speaker 1: often credited as throwing the first brick at stone wall

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Speaker 1: or something, or sometimes she's credited as throwing a shot

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Speaker 1: glass at the mirror and screaming I've got my civil rights.

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Speaker 1: But she's very clear that the night before she wasn't

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Speaker 1: there when the riots started. She showed up at two

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Speaker 1: am and threw down. But the next day, the second

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Speaker 1: night of riots, I have a question. Sorry, yeah, what

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Speaker 1: does she say she did? She says she showed up

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Speaker 1: at two am and threw down, but she doesn't say

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Speaker 1: like I threw the first note rick or like shock. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: interesting to know. Yeah, No, although Sylvia Rivera, who will

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Speaker 1: talk about in a second, That'll be an interesting question

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00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:57,400
Speaker 1: with her. Okay, So Martha P. Johnson, second night of riots,

356
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Speaker 1: climbs a lamp post with a with a bag with

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Speaker 1: a brick in it and drops it on a cop

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Speaker 1: car and smashes up the window. And the sheer athleticism

359
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Speaker 1: of climbing a lamppost with a bag with a brick

360
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:16,160
Speaker 1: in it. Wow, I'm in fucking awe. That's Olympic type shit.

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Speaker 1: I that's athleticism used correctly. Yeah, totally. And then Sylvia

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Speaker 1: Rivera is a Puerto Rican transwoman who identified as a

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Speaker 1: queen at the time who was part of all of

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Speaker 1: this too, And she's she's one of Marsha's best friends,

365
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Speaker 1: and she probably wasn't at the first night of riots.

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Speaker 1: She was, by most accounts high and or asleep in

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Speaker 1: a park nearby, Okay, and she spent an awful lot

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Speaker 1: of time telling people that she was there. However, I'm

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Speaker 1: not trying to talk shit on her. She rules and

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Speaker 1: did a fuck ton of amazing activism and I hate

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Speaker 1: bringing her up only to point out that she wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: I'm just trying to mythbust a little bit because these

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Speaker 1: are the two people horse sort of like often presented

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Speaker 1: as the right, the people who kicked it off. I mean,

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Speaker 1: and it's curious to know how that rumor or whatever

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00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 1: starts right or like how that information starts to get spread. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think with her, I think it's her being like, oh, yeah,

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00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 1: that's totally there, right exactly, And I mean, whatever, I'm

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Speaker 1: fucking I could see myself doing that too. So night too,

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Speaker 1: there's a big riot. Queers and allies are fighting cops

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot of contentious stuff about who did

382
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,159
Speaker 1: what fighting, and like there's like one part that's like

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00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 1: and then the anarchists fucked up everything by showing up

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Speaker 1: or whatever, and like every time I read that, I'm like, yeah,

385
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:40,960
Speaker 1: of course, yeah, Like I never heard that one before.

386
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 1: But then all the gays started getting along and everyone

387
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:51,440
Speaker 1: got their rights because of Stonewall. Just kidding, And I'm

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Speaker 1: sure we'll I'll, I'm sure on future episodes I'll talk

389
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 1: more about post Stonewall stuff too. But Stonewall wasn't the

390
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Speaker 1: first gay riot, but it was a turning point and

391
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 1: the queer movement moved from assimilationist deliberationist. But there's one

392
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: more riot story I want to tell you, one that

393
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 1: I didn't know about, and one that's left out of

394
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 1: mainstream discourse time and time again, because this riot on

395
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,880
Speaker 1: Stonewall wasn't the only riot on that street that night

396
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 1: that was directly related to all of this. I don't

397
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 1: know that. So Okay, there's a thing that I've either

398
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: talked about on the show or I wrote it in

399
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,160
Speaker 1: one of the scripts I haven't recorded yet. I don't

400
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 1: remember because my brain doesn't work that way. There's a

401
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,399
Speaker 1: thing called the Panther twenty one. There's a group of

402
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 1: people called the Panther twenty one. The short of it

403
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 1: is that they're twenty one Black Panthers in New York

404
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 1: City in nineteen sixty nine, same time all this stuff happens,

405
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,680
Speaker 1: they were framed up on some bullshit charges that kept

406
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 1: them tied up in jails and courts for years. And

407
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 1: it was part of this whole thing that split the

408
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: Black Panthers, specifically the New York East Coast in general,

409
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: but New York in particular. One of these Panthers she's

410
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: most famous now is Tupac Shakur's mom. And her name

411
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: is Yes, Yeah, I love her, love them Yeah, And

412
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: she's gonna she's gonna be even cooler. Well, she was

413
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 1: already this cool, but I learned more cool stuff about

414
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 1: her that I didn't know. She already fucking rules. She

415
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 1: joined the movement, She converted to Islam, She became a leader.

416
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 1: She helped establish the Harlem Breakfast program for kids. She

417
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 1: was twenty one when she was arrested as one of

418
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 1: the Panther twenty one in April nineteen sixty nine in

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Speaker 1: a coordinated series of thirteen raids on Panther houses. So

420
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: about I can't do math, but like two or so

421
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 1: months before before Stonewall and This is a frame up right.

422
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 1: The Panther twenty one didn't do these things. I'm sure

423
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 1: they were doing illegal things, but this is not what

424
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 1: they were framed up for. And I was saying that

425
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 1: they were going to like bomb department stores. And no

426
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: dynamite was found in any of the thirteen raids, but

427
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: that doesn't matter to cops. They got tips in court

428
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: for years. She got locked up into a place called

429
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,439
Speaker 1: the Women's House of Detention, which overlooks Christopher's Street and

430
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: the Stonewall In In fact, she was locked up across

431
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: the street when the Stonewall riots happened. Okay, And a

432
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: part of the story of the riot that's left out

433
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: is that the women in the House of Detention saw

434
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: the riot and started rioting. How is that left out?

435
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: That is crucial info that I should have known, especially

436
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: because it's like two box your core's mom, Like, I know,

437
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: come on, I assume a combination of leaving out black people,

438
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 1: leaving out lesbians, leaving out with struggles, and leaving all

439
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 1: anti carcerol. Right, that's that all the above, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

440
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: and you know, and also a lot of people like

441
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: I didn't know this until I actually shout out to

442
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: Hugh Ryan, who wrote a book called The Women's House

443
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: of Detention. I think that's what's called. And he Ryan's

444
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: a former guest on this podcast. You can listen to

445
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: me talk to him about stuff, and you know, he

446
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: was like, oh cool. I hit him up and I

447
00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: was like, what am I going to miss about Stonewall?

448
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: And he's like, of the part about you know, a

449
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: phemie sheicorps rioting across the street. And I was like,

450
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: I do not. You know, that's so cool. That's so

451
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 1: cool to Nill, Like she was already so fucking cool. Yeah,

452
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 1: I don't know. I thought she couldn't get cooler. I

453
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: was wrong. Yeah, And so at during Stonewall, women in

454
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: the prison started burning shit, throwing burning mattresses out of

455
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 1: the windows of the prison, screaming gay rights at the

456
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: top of their lungs, so that's they could be heard

457
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: from the street below. Like one of the one of

458
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: the people who showed up later to the riots, it

459
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 1: was like, oh fuck it, like ran off to go

460
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: to the riots, like heard the first rioting that that

461
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: this person heard was women in the prison screaming gay

462
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 1: power or gay rights. Eight women used that night to

463
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: Try and Escape. Author Hugh Ryan, veteran guests the Pod,

464
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: wrote the book him Women's House of Detention. He wrote, quote,

465
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: for far too long, our frame of reference for Stonewall

466
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: has been too small, cropping the story down to a

467
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: narrow slip of its true self, and then enlarging that

468
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 1: image until it blosts out everything else. The memory of

469
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: these eight women has fallen into the crack between what

470
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 1: happened and what we remember. Research as I might, I

471
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 1: cannot bridge the divide, which is to say that those

472
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: eight women, he knows their first names, and he never

473
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 1: he wasn't able to find out more information about them.

474
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to know the sexuality of all

475
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: the women in the prison, though their shouts of gay

476
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: power could be heard from the street, so it probably

477
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 1: wasn't just one or two gay people in there. But

478
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 1: we do know the sexuality of at least two of

479
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: the women in the House of Detention, a Fani Shakur

480
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: and her fellow panther twenty one arrestee Joan Bird spoiler

481
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: they're queer. Hey. After the panther arrests and Stonewall, some

482
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: leftist queers were like, hey, the gay movement should protest

483
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: the Women's House of Detention and support of the Panthers,

484
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: and the conservative folks were like, no, we can't do that.

485
00:26:53,840 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: That rocks the boat. Yeah, exactly, so the rowdy queers.

486
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: They formed the Gay Liberation Front. Usually people talk about

487
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 1: the glf's first protest being at the Village Voice demanding

488
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: the right to advertise in the paper. I think, but

489
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: months earlier the first protest they did. They protested alongside

490
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: the Panthers at the House of Detention. Because prison abolition

491
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: and support for black power get written out of history.

492
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: They returned to the House of Detention, I believe weekly

493
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: just being like, no, but these motherfuckers go And in response,

494
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: perhaps in response to this, or maybe just off his

495
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 1: own volition, Hughey Pugh Newton, co founder of the Panthers,

496
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 1: announced in nineteen seventy that the Panthers were making common

497
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: cause with the feminists and with gay liberation and Affhoenech

498
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: Corps spent months in solitary confinement without even a bathroom

499
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: in her cell. I think it might have actually been

500
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 1: like regular in the prison. I got a lobe confused

501
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: about this. Either in solitary or just regularly in prison.

502
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: There was no fucking bathroom in the cell, and you

503
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: have to be escorted by two guards in order to

504
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: go piss, which wasn't allowed very often. Yeah, it's really

505
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: fucking bad. And for anyone out there who's playing cool

506
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: people bingo, she acted as her own attorney. Yes, I

507
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 1: think I knew that part. Yeah, and this is the

508
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: part that shocked me. It worked. I think this is

509
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: like the only person I've covered a lot of people

510
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: who've defended themselves right to quote Hugh Ryan again quote

511
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: today it is largely believed that it was Shakur's statements

512
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: and her perceptive questioning of government infiltrators on the witness

513
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: stand that exposed FBI corruption and save the Panther twenty one.

514
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: That's amazing, that's great. Love her. Yeah, and I read

515
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: and again I don't have this in my script, so

516
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: it's me my faulty memory. But it's like she convinced

517
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: I think, either an infiltrator or a cop on the

518
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: stand to like admit that he was like hurting his

519
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: own people, he was a black man, and like got

520
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: him to like admit he had like done bad trying

521
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: to fuck with the tan. Yeah. Yeah, and she was

522
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: pregnant with Tupac in the prison, and it was the

523
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: women in prison I guess when she wasn't in solitary,

524
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: they gave her strength for her court battles. Like every

525
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: day she'd be like, oh, I don't know if I

526
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: can fucking do this, and people like you fucking got this.

527
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: You can fucking do it, you know. And her and

528
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: her other panther prisoner friend, also found something else in jail.

529
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: They found gay love, not even just the like kind

530
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: of classic getting laid behind bars. Affinie met a woman

531
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: named Carol Crooks or Crooksie, and when the two of

532
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: them got out they started dating. Joan Bird met a

533
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: butch named Burne, who she also dated once they got out,

534
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: So it wasn't even just like jailhouse love. Right. Well,

535
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: that's beautiful, cool enough, I know. I mean, that's a

536
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: nice ending to hear after Like, I mean, obviously I

537
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: know that she wasn't there forever, but to know that

538
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: like she left and like had happiness with someone, that's nice. Yeah, totally.

539
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: And if you want happiness you can buy it from

540
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: the ads. That's what they say. Money buys happiness. Yeah,

541
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: if you don't have any money, you're fucked. Yeah, I

542
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: don't know. I guess you should have thought of that

543
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: before participating by force into an economic system that rewards

544
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: people who already have things. Why don't you think of that?

545
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: Think about that during the break? Yeah, And we're back

546
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: from that break, and I hope you've thought about what

547
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: you've done long and hard. Yeah. Sorry, it's like sex,

548
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: and so I just want it remembered that all this

549
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: shit is connected. The gay women prisoners, including Tupac Shakur's mom,

550
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: are among the Stonewall rioters, and that the Gay Liberation

551
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: Front formed to be in solidarity with those women, that

552
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: sex workers and trans people and sis people and people

553
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: of every sexuality, even straight folk singers were all involved.

554
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: And then all of our struggles are connected. The Gay

555
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: Liberation Front formed and it did its thing. I hope

556
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: we talked about it more in the future Star. I

557
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: promised you a s oh yeah throwback to however long

558
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: ago that the episode one. Yeah, the Street Transvestite Action

559
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: Revolutionaries were formed by Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera,

560
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: and they provided housing and helped LGBT youth and sex

561
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: workers in New York. And they were an organization whose

562
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: charity was funded largely through sex work. Well, that's cool.

563
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: On the first anniversary of Stonewall, a parade was called

564
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: for the Christopher Street Liberation Day. Every gay group in

565
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: town like got together and voted for it in their

566
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: big conferences. They would have accept the Machine Society. Oh god,

567
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: they really went downhill, they really did? They abstained? Yeah?

568
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: How the how the mighty Fall's? Yeah, I know, I

569
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: know there's a there're saying I was trying to get right,

570
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: but I know sayings correctly in English, though I should

571
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: have tried. That's fine. Um you say, is there a

572
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: good Arabic phrase for it? That's pretty on the spot.

573
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: I can't there's something that directly translates into that. But

574
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like disappointments and stuff like, I

575
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: don't know, I'll think about it. Hit like, let's circle

576
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: back to that after the show. All right, all right,

577
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: So the Christopher Street Liberation Day parade, more than two

578
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: thousand people came. Most numbers say between three and five thousand.

579
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: More and more people join the march as it went on.

580
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: Some people say twenty thousand. I usually when people provide numbers,

581
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: none of them are true, right, frankly, we're all made up. Yeah,

582
00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: oh my god, one day there's going to be like

583
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: a little like a eye drones that actually count every

584
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: single person. I feel like we're already there. We're just

585
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, that's actually probably true. Other cities followed suit.

586
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: And this is why Pride is in June, because we

587
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: remember that we can bite cops and kick them in

588
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: the chest with high heels, and we can scare them

589
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,239
Speaker 1: into barricading themselves into buildings, and we can fucking come

590
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: close to studying them on fire if we need to.

591
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: So that we can dress how we want and love

592
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: who we want to love. That's that's something to be

593
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: proud for. I think, yeah, yeah, I you know, it's

594
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: funny because I like I never really thought I was

595
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: like queer enough. Yeah, same, And you know, even like

596
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: like when I identified as like a transvestite for a

597
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: long time, as I was like, oh, I'm just a

598
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: cross dresser, you know, I'm a cross dresser named Margaret whatever,

599
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: you know, And and so I never really felt super

600
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: connected to a lot of the Like I don't regularly

601
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: go to Pride or anything like that. I don't love

602
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: cribs same like I I like riots more than I

603
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: like calm celebrations, um and like and so yeah like

604
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: I but I you know, the more I hear about

605
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: the history, the more I read about the history and stuff,

606
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 1: the more I am like, No, I really am actually

607
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: like proud, like because of how fucking hard the human

608
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: battery and rams have fought, you know. Yeah, No, I think,

609
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: I mean the origins of it are really good to

610
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: know because I think there was a good amount of

611
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: time before I got like just into like a pure

612
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: marketing scheme. Like I feel like pride is just like

613
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: not what it needs to be. It's genuinely like used

614
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: against us. Yeah, but yeah, I think, uh, knowing the

615
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 1: history of what it actually started as before fucking corporations

616
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: caught on to the total to the thing is important

617
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: because I think now it's almost like I know, he

618
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: just kind of gets some like well deserved hate because

619
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: it's just become like rainbow pins and rainbow lugs from

620
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: so and so company and like whatever, yeah, made by

621
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: people who working for terrible pages in other countries, and

622
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: like it's the new gayola. Like we used to pay

623
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: off the mafia and now we pay corporations who are

624
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: doing more evil for the world than the mafia could

625
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: ever dream of, not because the mafia is good, but

626
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: because giant corporations are because capitalism is the biggest evil.

627
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: That's really what it is. It's just like, if it

628
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 1: all boils down to people doing things for money, you

629
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: know that you were fun. Yeah, yeah, but that said,

630
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: it went from two thousand people in nineteen seventy the

631
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 1: fiftieth anniversary in twenty nineteen, more than five million people

632
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 1: celebrated in New York City. And this is the largest

633
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: aid in New York City's history. Wow. And that's just

634
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: fucking as as messy as it is. Yeah, it's still

635
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: fucking rules that like, and it's just so and we

636
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: thought we made it. We're like that interviewer in nineteen

637
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: ninety eight who was like, Hey, Harry, Harry, isn't it

638
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: great that we've made it? And he's like, no, they

639
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: will rip that away from you. You know, he was right. Yeah,

640
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was the biggest riot or a

641
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: parade rather in New York history. That's really amazing to

642
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 1: hear that. I know, Yeah, I know, I like, yeah,

643
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,439
Speaker 1: I didn't know that either until I was just like, yeah,

644
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: doing that research and I'm like, oh shit, yeah, and

645
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: I'll close out by returning to the skull. Oh yes,

646
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 1: oh I forgot Okay, tell me what happened to the skull?

647
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 1: To mother to mother. For his part, the Skull turned

648
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: a new leaf after Stonewall, he became a community organizer.

649
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: He spent all of his time helping street youth, working

650
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 1: hard with the AIDS crisis, and teaching condom use. He

651
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: possibly he was like one of the founders at the

652
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: Christopher Street Festival that became Pride. He came out it's

653
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: a big part of all of us, and he became

654
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,479
Speaker 1: the kind of guy who like dress up at Santa

655
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: as Santa Claus for events, Like he just became like

656
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: everyone's like fucking an endearing man. And at that point

657
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: he's like older because he like spent multiple times in

658
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: prison and like whatever. Yeah, he fought in World War Two, right,

659
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: oh yeah, so he's like getting there, Santa Claus, Santa Claus. Yeah, yeah,

660
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 1: yeah totally. And he works really hard to keep Pride

661
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: focused exactly what we were just talking about. He works

662
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,919
Speaker 1: hard to include people of color and working class white

663
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: folks and Pride and also to make sure that X

664
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 1: cons feel welcome and basically like he pride like not

665
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: for rich people. Right, he gets one of his ex

666
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: cop buddies from when he was like when he was

667
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: doing that scam with the corrupt cops. He gets one

668
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: of them to turn a new leaf and become a

669
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: community activist instead of a couple. That's pretty cool. That's

670
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: pretty cool. Skull he fucking he fucking yeah. Like, and

671
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: he died of aids on February twenty eighth, nineteen eighty nine,

672
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: sixty three years old. At his funeral at Saint Veronica's

673
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 1: Roman Catholic the priest said, if ed Murphy is not

674
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: with God, then there is no God. Wow. If you

675
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 1: can get it full, yeah, if you can live your

676
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: cat your like gay Catholic life or like you know,

677
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: like like if you can get a Catholic priest to

678
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 1: say this at your funeral after everything you've done good

679
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: and bad, you know what I mean? He was not

680
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: a saint by Eddy Saplings, and the fact that he

681
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: did so much good that almost outweighed all of that.

682
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: It's pretty amazing, right well, and like and I think

683
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: that actually really like, um, I try not to like

684
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: overly talk about religion on this podcast. I'm actually not

685
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: particularly religious, will come across it very differently. I'm very

686
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: interested in religious radicals. I'm very interested in people have

687
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: different worldviews and how they apply them to the world.

688
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 1: And that is like why I find so find so

689
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: much interest in all of this. But it's like the

690
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: Catholic whole thing is theoretically about forgiveness and people who

691
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: have like been bad do good is like kind of

692
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,720
Speaker 1: almost the core of it. And like, at its best,

693
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 1: I think it's anti carcerol, and I think at its

694
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: best it is like yeah, saying like look if this

695
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: guy didn't get in, I mean, I don't think it's

696
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: like it's like like getting freed or like redemption is

697
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: like a huge part of that that journey for a

698
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 1: lot of people. That makes sense. Yeah, and to keep

699
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,760
Speaker 1: it all super irish. The funeral march included someone singing

700
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: the song Danny Boy, and the longest piece I was

701
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: able to find about him, there's like one long article

702
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 1: that someone wrote about his life and it's this like

703
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,280
Speaker 1: gay Catholic piece. It presents him really cynically. It's doesn't

704
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: like him. I think it's like um and it it

705
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: basically claims he is involved in charity work for like

706
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: money and clout, and I'm like, what's money? Yeah? And

707
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: and I okay, and here's this this I might regret

708
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 1: saying this. I think in his heart he was a

709
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: class warrior, and the extortion of rich gays is like,

710
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: he's a poor criminal. He robs rich people. He's in

711
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: the gay scene, so he robs rich gay people. Like

712
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 1: that's not good, but it sounds like a quality. I know.

713
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: It's not greedy or selfish to rob rich people. It's

714
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: just a sign that your system is economically broken. I

715
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: agree with you one hundred percent. I really do. Like

716
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: I think kind of similarly, maybe this is also propose

717
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: that I shouldn't say, but like similarly, how I think

718
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 1: being a cop trump's everything. I think being rich sometimes

719
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,879
Speaker 1: can trump everything else because if a certain point where

720
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 1: you kind of lose touch or not even just lose touch,

721
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: but like there's just it's too much of a discrepancy.

722
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 1: You know, it's just I don't I don't feel bad

723
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 1: for you. Yeah, so I do think you're right. I

724
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: think stealing from rich people, regardless of who they are,

725
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,959
Speaker 1: is never bad because they'll get over it and still

726
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 1: be rich. Yeah, I mean to a point extorting them

727
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: obviously extorting them about their sexuality, yes, not that lead

728
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 1: into their suicide and stuff is more gay people killing

729
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: themselves because of that, and that is a yeah, yeah,

730
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: obviously not talking about that being no, no, I know.

731
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: But as far as like the bad things he did,

732
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: which were horrible, they were horrible. I think in his

733
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: life potentially maybe he was conscious of it and led

734
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: it differently from that point, because it sounds like later

735
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: in his life he kind of focused on being like

736
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,439
Speaker 1: an activist and helping people from what it sounds like. Yeah,

737
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: And one of the pieces I've read a couple of

738
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: different things about his snitching, and one of them was like, oh,

739
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: he's stayed informant for the police until the NYPD beat

740
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: the shit out of him, and then he stopped informing

741
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 1: for them. Yeah. And then in his own words, he's like, no,

742
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: fuck that, I ain't no rat or whatever. But I

743
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: mean that's you guess yeah everyone. Yeah. And then Harry

744
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: hay To go more full circle, the communist who started

745
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: the Mattachine Society and then got run out of it.

746
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: He went on to form another movement in nineteen seventy nine,

747
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: this one that is pretty much immune to co option.

748
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: The Radical Fairies. Have you heard the Radical Fairies? I have?

749
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: Should I have? I don't know much about anything. I

750
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: have not heard of the routine. I knew about them

751
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 1: from like being a weird queer hitchhiker and hanging out

752
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: in rural spaces and stuff. And I'm not going into

753
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: them deeply, but they're a kind of a new age

754
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: pagan gay rural counterculture, wow, with like all kinds of

755
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: messy stuff. Yeah, and many of the people who I'm

756
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 1: presenting uncritically in this episode have things that could be

757
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: said about them whatever. And in nineteen seventy four, the

758
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: Gay Liberation Front successfully got the which is the group

759
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: that kind of came most immediately out of Stonewall, got

760
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 1: the American Psychiatric Association to take being gay out of

761
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: the Big Book of Mental Disorders, the DSMOR, the Diagnostic

762
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: and Statistical Manual. I have opinions on that that we

763
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: can't get into, but yeah, it was replaced with being

764
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 1: upset about being gay was the new disorder in nineteen

765
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 1: seventy four. Wow, until twenty thirteen when we finally got

766
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: rid of that. I mean, you could just call that

767
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: shame at a certain point and just like not making

768
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: a mental disease to feel one way or the other

769
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 1: about yourself. That's so stupid whatever. Yeah, no, what I mean,

770
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: it's like, why would people be ashamed of being gay

771
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 1: because society is exactly exactly society's disease. Yeah, be a

772
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: different book, The Conquest of Bread. I don't know, I've

773
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: never read The Conquest of Bread. Because progress isn't linear.

774
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: We're now entering an age where if I went and

775
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: gave this as a talk in Tennessee, it would have

776
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 1: to be at a strip club. Yeah, because I can't

777
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,959
Speaker 1: give a public talk in a bunch soon a bunch

778
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: of states. That's we talked. We talked about this throughout

779
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 1: the whole story of this. But like genuinely, history does

780
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: not change. It just changes, like it just the flavor

781
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: is different, but the content is the same. Like it's

782
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: just so scary because we want to believe, like, oh

783
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: my god, there's been improvement in there has Yeah, but

784
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: that reality is terrifying that like still like a century later,

785
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: you're it's not safe for you to yeah, to beat

786
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: in public essentially, Like that's fucked up. It's just unreal.

787
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 1: I yeah, but I I will say, I think it's

788
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: not that nothing changes. I think it's that progress isn't

789
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 1: linear and we actually have to fight. That's true, That's

790
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: that's a less cynical way to think about it. And

791
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: when we fight, we win. We win both often we

792
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: win specific strategic victories, everything from the reformist convincing the

793
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: New York Marrier to stop and trapping gay men to

794
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 1: entire huge movements that transform the cultural face of the

795
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: world like Stonewall, did you know? And yeah, but also

796
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,359
Speaker 1: we win literally because like if you pelt cops with

797
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: donuts and they drive away without arresting your friends, you

798
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: will never forget that feeling. Yeah, And when you die,

799
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 1: you will have done something amazing. You will have one

800
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: because we all fucking die, but not everyone has scared

801
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: cops away with donuts. That's apparently my takeaway that it

802
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 1: didn't end intend to land on. I but I think

803
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: you're completely right that that's the highest point of life

804
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: that anyone could achieve. Yeah, but I no, no, no,

805
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: I think your take is better. I'm very cynical, and

806
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 1: I think the only way of progress is even made

807
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:02,439
Speaker 1: is not to be that way. Like if you have

808
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 1: like hope that it isn't linear, but it's still progressing.

809
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: That's the only way we're ever going to get out

810
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 1: of this fucking hole we're in, right, So I think

811
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: that's a better way to look at it, for sure.

812
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: I just I'm so I need to not be a cynical.

813
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,720
Speaker 1: I know that about myself. But this is uncaird session

814
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: that we signed up. No, But I mean, like I

815
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 1: think about this a lot too, right, Like, I'm very um,

816
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: I think some bad stuff were coming. I run a

817
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 1: prepper podcast, But I like, I believe in strategic optimism

818
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: because we can't win unless we think we can win,

819
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: and so I believe that it is worthwhile and useful

820
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: even if we are like cynical, to at least fight

821
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:50,399
Speaker 1: like we can win, even if we don't expect to win, right,

822
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: Because it's like my wind condition is really unlikely, right,

823
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: my wind condition is a stateless society without capitalism or

824
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 1: like systemic oppression of any sort along race and you

825
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 1: know whatever lines right, and like, so my win condition

826
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 1: is really unlikely to happen in my lifetime or anyone's lifetime,

827
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 1: but it is absolutely worth fighting for. And I think

828
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 1: it informs my life and gives my life. It makes

829
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: my life better. So even though it's cynical, not that

830
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: you know that's cliche, but yeah, yeah, strategic optim No, no,

831
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just gonna strategic optimism everyone. That's that's

832
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: what I'd like to plug. Yeah, even if you don't

833
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 1: believe you'll win, you can still act like you might

834
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: and you will have a better time. It's like going

835
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: into plane a board game and being like, whatever, I

836
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: give up, you're not going to have any fun playing

837
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 1: the board game. I thought you were going to say,

838
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 1: because I also think this applies going on to a plane,

839
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: and I thought you were going to say going out

840
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: to a plane and I thinking it's going to crash

841
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 1: versus like things gonna be okay. You're gonna have a

842
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: better time on the plane if you think it's gonna

843
00:47:55,080 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: be okay versus it's gonna c Also, but uh, having

844
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: meaning in your life or like purpose or whatever, I

845
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: think it gets kind of like annoying to talk about.

846
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 1: But you're right in that, Like what is the point

847
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: of this existence if not to like constantly evolve and

848
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: be okay doing it? Like why be miserable if we

849
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: cannot If we have the opportunity not to obviously there

850
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: are there are exceptions to that when it comes to

851
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: mental health and all that stuff. But if our brains

852
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: are so powerful, like so powerful, and I think we

853
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: don't give them enough credit to to make our to

854
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: shape our reality. Again, exceptions yet, but I think about

855
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: that all the time, especially recently. Like I I've just

856
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: been in this phase of like philosophy and like whatever,

857
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: and it's maybe I'm just looking at it from a

858
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:56,720
Speaker 1: really like I don't know, intense way, but I think

859
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 1: I I think I think I'm mad at myself for

860
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 1: making fun of having me, because that's exactly why I

861
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: don't want to happen, because it could be cliche. Yeah,

862
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: but literally being alive and being like even if I

863
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 1: help one person or like whatever it is, my life

864
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 1: has meaning. I can be a spec on this giant

865
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: fucking universe galaxy. But I'm a spec that's going to

866
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 1: be here as long as I can and do as

867
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: much as I can. Like what else is there? There's

868
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 1: no other option? So yeah, we should have ended when

869
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:35,320
Speaker 1: you stopped at the optimism selective optimism or no no, no, yeah, anyway, well,

870
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 1: guiding the plug sides meaning you could follow me on

871
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: the internet Shiro hero six six six on Twitter and

872
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 1: then just Shiro hero on Instagram. I rarely post on

873
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: them anymore, to be honest, to circle back to like

874
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 1: what is the point of all of that? Because that's

875
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 1: how I I just got into that little cycle of

876
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: like what is the point in a facial media? Nothing? Yeah,

877
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. I just think for a long time it

878
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: was especially like in our quote unquote line of work,

879
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: it feels like the only way to stay relevant sometimes, yeah,

880
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 1: and you have to just kind of step back and

881
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: be like who cares? Yeah, you know, but what what

882
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 1: is your line of work? Do you do any podcasts

883
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 1: or anything? I do do podcast I do do podcasts.

884
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: I occasionally will host on It could happen here. I

885
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,919
Speaker 1: have my own podcast called Ethnically Ambiguous, and I guess

886
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: on a bunch of other shit that you can listen to,

887
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 1: and I make films when I can, and you can

888
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: watch those two if you want to. So that's what

889
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: I got today. Hell yeah, And you can listen to

890
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:51,320
Speaker 1: other cool Zone podcasts such as Hood Politics, Internet Hate Machine,

891
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:59,800
Speaker 1: Behind There, Behind the Behind the Bullies, Yeah, Batties, pteful meanings,

892
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 1: The hateful meanis hateful meanis pod um and hateful meanis

893
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: that's that's on me. When you wait, when you use it,

894
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: remember me. Yeah, when you remember hateful meanis remember this's

895
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: the words cute. All right. We will see you. I

896
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: will see you all next week. Bye everyone. Cool People

897
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media.

898
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,720
Speaker 1: For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website

899
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

900
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.