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Speaker 1: Hello.

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Speaker 2: And welcome.

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Speaker 3: To My Favorite Murder.

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Speaker 2: That's Georgia Hardstark.

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Speaker 3: That's Karen Kilgareth.

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Speaker 2: And this is a true crime podcast.

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Speaker 3: We bring it right to your door.

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Speaker 2: For 10 years.

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Speaker 3: Knock, knock.

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Speaker 2: It's been a decade, bitches.

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Speaker 3: Let us in. Do you have snacks?

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Speaker 2: Do you have treats for us? Treats?

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Speaker 3: Can we have a treat?

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Speaker 2: It is spooky season coming right up around the corner.

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Speaker 2: Only two months to go.

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Speaker 3: What's up? How are you? I'm good.

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Speaker 2: How are you?

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Speaker 3: Good. Good. Is this natural? No, I don't remember what

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Speaker 3: we do next.

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Speaker 2: We do different stuff every time.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: It's usually different.

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Speaker 3: I've actually never listened to this podcast before.

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Speaker 2: It's not good.

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Speaker 3: So I don't know the format. Hey, you want some

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Speaker 3: kind of good news, I guess, from the dark side?

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: Okay. So remember a couple episodes ago in episode 541

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Speaker 3: called House or Wife? Yes.

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Speaker 2: I remember every moment.

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Speaker 3: I covered the guy who was imprisoned for like 30

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Speaker 3: years for allegedly starting a flood in Mississippi, the Great

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Speaker 3: Mississippi Flood of 1993. His name was James Scott. Well,

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Speaker 3: he was up for parole and he was granted parole.

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Speaker 3: He was 25 years old when he went to prison.

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Speaker 3: And he's been in so long, he's now 56 years old.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And so he's going to finally get out.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I wish they would look more into that.

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Speaker 3: The evidence was shit.

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Speaker 2: That's an incredible update. That's the update we're looking for.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So that's good. It is good.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is a little bit an additional update, not

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Speaker 2: as good as someone finally getting out of jail. But

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Speaker 2: I went again to Sephora.

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Speaker 3: Congratulations.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. And I let someone help me.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: And it was such a delightful experience. We stood in

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Speaker 2: the hair aisle laughing and talking about having bobs.

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Speaker 3: Amazing.

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Speaker 2: And it was so funny. And as it was happening,

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Speaker 2: I was like, you are the architect of your own fate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: If you're not going to.

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Speaker 3: Talk to people.

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Speaker 2: Or you're like, that's how you always complain.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: If you're not going to be in the game, then

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Speaker 2: you're always going to be like, I don't like this game.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But you go and you're actually, someone goes, do you

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Speaker 2: need help? And it's like.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, actually. Actually, I do.

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Speaker 2: Can you help? Actually, it wasn't just the woman in

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Speaker 2: the hair area because I was looking at a new,

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Speaker 2: very expensive skin tint, which I do not need. And

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Speaker 2: I was looking at it. I was like, have you

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Speaker 2: tried this? Do you like it? And she goes, we'll

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Speaker 2: give you a little tester. Basically, I realize people work

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Speaker 2: at Sephora.

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Speaker 3: And they actually want to help you.

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Speaker 2: They really do want to help really bad.

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Speaker 3: She didn't say at the end, I'm a listener. No.

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Speaker 3: Because I had an experience. You reminded me that a

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Speaker 3: couple weeks ago, I was in Portland for the weekend,

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Speaker 3: just having a vacay, decided to change my flight to

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Speaker 3: earlier in the day. And I couldn't get the website

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Speaker 3: to work on my phone. My Wi-Fi was shitty. So

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Speaker 3: I had to call a fucking customer service line in

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Speaker 3: this day and age.

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Speaker 2: How?

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Speaker 3: I know. And I give this woman, this, you know, nice,

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Speaker 3: normal woman at Alaska Airlines, my name. And she goes,

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Speaker 3: she fucking recognized me. That has never happened before. On

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Speaker 3: the phone? Yes. In the 10 years where I've like

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Speaker 3: made hair appointments and made Botox appointments and made doctor,

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Speaker 3: I was just like, assuming at one point, one of

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Speaker 3: those young girls at those, at a med spa, was

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Speaker 3: going to be like, I listen. Never has that happened.

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Speaker 3: So when she did that and said, are you from

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Speaker 3: My Favorite Murder? I freaked out as much as she

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Speaker 3: was freaking out. She still charged me the change fee.

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Speaker 3: She was like, I'm sorry. I wish I could waive it,

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Speaker 3: but I can't.

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Speaker 2: She's like, listen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So Nancy in Alaska. Hey. Hi.

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Speaker 2: That was really exciting. Nancy, thanks for listening. This is Nancy.

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Speaker 2: Being on the phone with you is like, A podcast

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Speaker 2: kind of, but short and problem-based. Right.

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Speaker 3: She solved my problem and she was lovely the whole time.

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Speaker 3: That's great. I know.

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Speaker 2: That's really nice.

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Speaker 3: First time.

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Speaker 2: That's also very fun.

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Speaker 3: It was really fun.

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Speaker 2: Because doing stuff like that is usually such a drag.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: And you're just like, Nancy.

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Speaker 3: Nancy. We're already friends. I've been waiting for this for

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Speaker 3: 10 years.

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Speaker 2: Nancy, this is wonderful.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I've been recognized at multiple estate sales, but

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Speaker 3: never on the phone.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 3: So it was exciting for me.

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Speaker 2: It's a harder, it's like you leveled up. It's a

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Speaker 2: harder thing that you unlocked.

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Speaker 3: Totally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay.

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Speaker 2: Something that is true to my heart, TikTok.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: A delightful TikTok. I got sent it on TikTok personally

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Speaker 2: 30 times. My sister showed me when I went home

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Speaker 2: last weekend.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: I thought you'd like it because it's right up our alley.

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Speaker 3: Let me see. Let me see.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: Here's what to do if you don't want to get murdered.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I love her.

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Speaker 1: It's been a while since we've done one of these

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Speaker 1: and I just think it's time. First of all, don't

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Speaker 1: honeymoon on a boat.

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Speaker 3: What are you doing?

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Speaker 1: Don't honeymoon on a cliff. I get that people like

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Speaker 1: to hike. I get that. But if it's like some

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Speaker 1: kind of like really like risky cliff hillside hike. I

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Speaker 1: don't think you should go. I don't care if he's

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Speaker 1: the greatest living human man. I don't think you should go.

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Speaker 1: Don't go jogging late at night. Don't go jogging. Don't

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Speaker 1: go jogging. Don't be like six to 15 weeks pregnant.

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Speaker 1: Don't be full term and meet someone on Facebook. If

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Speaker 1: I was pregnant, I wouldn't even open Facebook. Absolutely no Craigslist.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely no. She basically, like, summarized the last 10 years

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Speaker 3: of this podcast.

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Speaker 2: In one TikTok. And then the last 2,000 years of

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Speaker 2: women's lives. So that was Jen Curran, and hilarious. I've

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Speaker 2: seen her on TikTok several times, but then Allison looked

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Speaker 2: it up, and she actually follows us on Instagram.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So there is a chance she is a listener.

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Speaker 3: Love her.

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Speaker 2: Or she's hate-following us.

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Speaker 3: She might be hate-following us.

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Speaker 2: Either way, we support what she does.

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Speaker 3: Might be rate-paging?

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 3: No. Bait?

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Speaker 2: Rage baiting.

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Speaker 3: Wow. Perimenopause just had a moment. Right?

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Speaker 2: It's mosquito brain time.

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Speaker 3: Wow. Perfect. I hate when that happens.

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Speaker 2: For podcasting.

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Speaker 3: Definitely.

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Speaker 2: All you have to do is read now.

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Speaker 3: You know what's fun is trying to find an outfit

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Speaker 3: to wear on perimenopause.

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Speaker 2: Oh, God.

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Speaker 3: Fuck everything.

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Speaker 2: Truly the other day, I actually had to call Craig

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Speaker 2: and I was like, I don't know what happened, but

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Speaker 2: every single item I put on, I had to take

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Speaker 2: back off. And I was getting increasingly more upset.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 2: Because it's like, it's not going to get better from here. No.

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Speaker 3: I settled on this and had to pull it from

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Speaker 3: under a cat, which I won't disturb a cat who's sleeping.

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Speaker 3: That's how bad it was. You know what I mean? Like,

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Speaker 3: the fact that I disturbed a cat, there's probably still

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Speaker 3: cat hair on it, tells you how bad a day

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Speaker 3: I was having trying to find something to wear.

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Speaker 2: This was one of the things I was talking to

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Speaker 2: the woman at Sephora about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: These things that happen pre-menopause or menopause where suddenly your

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Speaker 2: hair changes. You don't know what your hair's doing anymore. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's falling out or it's getting weirdly curly or wet. Like,

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Speaker 2: That whole thing.

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Speaker 3: My shoulder hurts. Can I blame?

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Speaker 2: Now I have knife shoulder.

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Speaker 3: Tinnitus is a fucking thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Have you had any hot flashes?

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Speaker 3: Yes, but the patch has been helping. The estradiol patch

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Speaker 3: has been helping with hot flashes. Oh, okay. So those

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Speaker 3: are fine. But my vision's fucked up.

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Speaker 1: I mean.

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Speaker 3: It's just.

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Speaker 2: Or like energy battery on the video game is just

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Speaker 2: dwindling down.

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Speaker 3: And I yeeted my uterus. So you'd think that it

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Speaker 3: was like not as crazy.

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Speaker 2: No, they'll still get you.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty fucked.

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Speaker 2: They'll get you on a technicality is what they'll do.

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Speaker 3: They really will.

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Speaker 1: Hey.

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Speaker 3: Fuck them.

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Speaker 2: Fuck them. When we say them, we mean your ovaries.

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Speaker 2: If you're in perimenopause or menopause, write to us at myfavoritemurderatgmail.com.

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Speaker 3: Let's play a game of how many eggs do you

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Speaker 3: have left? How many viable eggs do you have left?

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Speaker 2: And how much are you sweating for no reason?

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Speaker 3: All right. Well, should we get into the podcast, the

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Speaker 3: actual podcast? We might as well.

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Speaker 2: No, I think we should sit here and watch TikToks.

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Speaker 3: I know you do. We have a podcast network called

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Speaker 3: Exactly Right Media. There's podcasts on it. Here are some

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Speaker 3: highlights from them.

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Speaker 2: This week on Bananas, Kurt and Scotty are joined by

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Speaker 2: Mo Welch to discuss West Seattle's freelance beaver detective.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: A teacher who arranged her classroom by zodiac signs, and

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Speaker 2: a Spider-Man thief who learned his tricks working as a

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Speaker 2: Power Ranger.

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Speaker 3: Wow. And over on Wicked Words, Kate sits down with

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Speaker 3: crime journalist Maria DiLorenzo to discuss her book, Confessions of

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Speaker 3: the Green River Killer.

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Speaker 2: And over on The Knife, Hannah tells Pasha about an

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Speaker 2: online knitting community rocked by the sudden and suspicious death

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Speaker 2: of one of its own. But as the community starts

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Speaker 2: piecing together what happened... The story begins to unravel.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: That's a play on words because it's.

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Speaker 3: A knitting community. I love it. Okay. And if you

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Speaker 3: haven't listened to our limited series, Royal Swindle, yet, all

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Speaker 3: the episodes are now available. So you can binge the

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Speaker 3: whole wild story from beginning to end. And make sure

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Speaker 3: to like and subscribe, please.

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Speaker 2: And if you're like us and you love Michael Foote

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Speaker 2: from our legal podcast, Brief Recess, then you will be

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Speaker 2: very excited to hear this news. The TV show The

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Speaker 2: Traitor's New Blood premieres today.

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Speaker 3: I am so excited. Fucking excited for this.

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Speaker 2: September 17th on NBC, and it streams tomorrow on Peacock.

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Speaker 3: We're going to be live posting along with the premiere

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Speaker 3: on Threads, and Michael will be recapping all of the

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Speaker 3: drama on Brief Recess.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're immediately going to get a contestant's experience. on

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Speaker 2: a podcast.

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Speaker 3: He's going to be so good. Like, I was thinking

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Speaker 3: about going up against him on The Traitors. I would quit. Yes.

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Speaker 3: I'd be like, I can't. No one can outsmart him.

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Speaker 2: No, and also, but he's so charming.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Like, I'm sure he's just charming the hell out of

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Speaker 2: everybody and they don't ever see anything coming.

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Speaker 3: Exactly. He's a worthy adversary. Yes, he is. Yes, he is.

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Speaker 3: I'm excited.

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Speaker 2: And finally, we would like to thank you, Murderinos, because

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Speaker 2: the fuck politeness and the wheat woo whistles are officially

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Speaker 2: sold out And we are going to be donating the

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Speaker 2: proceeds to the national immigration lawsuit.

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Speaker 1: Yay.

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Speaker 3: Good job, everyone. Yes.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for that.

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Speaker 3: That's so cool. Love doing that in your name. So

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Speaker 3: this is a story that I don't want to read

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Speaker 3: the subject line for you like the way we do

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Speaker 3: on Minisodes because it'll give it away. Okay. So I'm

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Speaker 3: just going to say this is a story that would

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Speaker 3: have been considered a cold case if were it not

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Speaker 3: for a father who refused to ever let it go.

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Speaker 3: This is the story of the murder of Kalinka Bamberski. Wow.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to tell you the tagline because it's

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Speaker 3: just so gripping. Okay. But I'm going to tell you

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Speaker 3: the story instead.

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Speaker 2: You have to tell me the story before the tagline.

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Speaker 3: Okay. The main sources for this story are a documentary

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Speaker 3: on Netflix called My Daughter's Killer and an article in

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Speaker 3: The Atavist by Joshua Hammer and the rest of the

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Speaker 3: sources can be found in the show notes. So, Let's

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Speaker 3: start in July of 1982, and we are in Toulouse, France. Toulouse, France,

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Speaker 3: a pretty big city in the south of the country.

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Speaker 3: You know, there you go, France.

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Speaker 2: France stuff.

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Speaker 3: Andre Bomberski is a 42-year-old accountant, so such a normal,

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Speaker 3: organized dude. Everyone describes him as exceedingly organized and detail-oriented.

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Speaker 3: He's a person who likes to see tasks through to

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Speaker 3: the end.

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Speaker 2: Not me. Couldn't be me.

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Speaker 3: Can you imagine us as accountants? We would crash the

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Speaker 3: stock market.

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Speaker 2: Bad news about your taxes this year.

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Speaker 3: Did you want to pay in Skittles? Because I'd be,

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Speaker 3: I think you should pay in Skittles.

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Speaker 2: The good news is you don't have to pay them.

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Speaker 2: The bad news is you're supposed to.

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Speaker 3: I traded all your money for Skittles.

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Speaker 2: And this cow.

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Speaker 3: You're welcome.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Let's see what happens.

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Speaker 3: And some seashells, but they're beautiful. Okay, so Andre is

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Speaker 3: divorced and has two children, an 11-year-old son named Nicolas.

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Speaker 3: and a 14-year-old daughter named Kalinka. The children spend the

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Speaker 3: majority of the year living with their mother in Lindau, Germany,

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Speaker 3: which is a beautiful historic town on the shores of

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Speaker 3: Lake Constance, not far from the Austrian border and across

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Speaker 3: the lake from Switzerland. I knew you were just going

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Speaker 3: to say that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I wanted to. I wanted to say it.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for not interrupting me.

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Speaker 3: Okay. Their mother, Danielle, but in French, Danielle, Danielle, had

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Speaker 3: remarried a German doctor named Dieter Krambach, who she had

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Speaker 3: actually had an affair with her new husband when she

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Speaker 3: was still married to Andre. They had a pretty messy

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Speaker 3: divorce over it, and the kids went to live with

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Speaker 3: her and the new husband in Germany. And so as

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Speaker 3: it stands now, in 1982, things are pretty amicable again.

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Speaker 3: The past few years, Andre has only gotten the kids

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Speaker 3: for vacations. But Kalinka, you know, originally from France, is

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Speaker 3: feeling isolated in her German school. And so by the

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Speaker 3: end of the summer, she's planning to move back to

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Speaker 3: Toulouse to live with her father. He's looking forward to that.

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Speaker 3: But this all comes crashing down on the morning of

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Speaker 3: July 10th when Andre gets a phone call from his ex, Danielle,

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Speaker 3: who is hysterical. She tells him that Kalinka has died

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Speaker 3: in her sleep. 14-year-old Kalinka, and that her husband Dieter

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Speaker 3: tried to revive her, but he couldn't. Andre asks what

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Speaker 3: could have happened to his vibrant, healthy daughter. And Danielle

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Speaker 3: says that Dieter's best guess is a heat stroke. That's

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Speaker 3: what he suggests it could be. Or possibly undiagnosed complications

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Speaker 3: from a car accident she had years earlier. But they're

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Speaker 3: not sure why this healthy, vibrant 14-year-old girl would have died.

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Speaker 3: So on July 9th, The day before, the last day

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Speaker 3: of Kalinka's life, she had gone windsurfing on Lake Constance.

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Speaker 3: It had been around 84 degrees that day, and according

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Speaker 3: to her mother and stepfather, she had been complaining about

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Speaker 3: feeling unwell that evening. She ate dinner at 7.30, went

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Speaker 3: to bed, and then came out of her room at

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Speaker 3: around 10 o'clock for a glass of water and read

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Speaker 3: in bed until midnight when Dieter says that he told

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Speaker 3: her to turn off the light. That's his story, basically. Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 3: The next morning, Dieter and Kalinka were supposed to go

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Speaker 3: horseback riding together in the mountains, and he says when

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Speaker 3: he tried to wake her up, he found her unresponsive.

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Speaker 3: He had tried to administer several stimulant injections to revive her,

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Speaker 3: but they hadn't worked. And he's a doctor.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just going to say.

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Speaker 3: Okay. So, you know, him diagnosing her and him giving

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Speaker 3: her injections, not totally suspicious. Right. Immediately upon learning of

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Speaker 3: his daughter's death, Andre flies to Lindau, and early the

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Speaker 3: next morning, he goes to view his daughter's body and

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Speaker 3: then brings his son, 11-year-old Nicolet, home to Toulouse to

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Speaker 3: prepare for Kalinka's funeral. And here's a photo of Andre

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Speaker 3: holding a photo of Kalinka. So you can see them.

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Speaker 3: She just was this bright, beautiful, blonde, lovely girl. They

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Speaker 3: said she was always smiling. And he's such a dad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Okay. All of Andre's friends and neighbors rally around him

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Speaker 3: to support the family during this horrible time and a

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Speaker 3: seemingly random and unavoidable tragedy. After Kalinka's funeral, Andre, still

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Speaker 3: trying to piece together what on earth happened, requests the

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Speaker 3: autopsy report from the German medical examiner. It takes a

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Speaker 3: while to get a copy, and then Andre has to

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Speaker 3: get it translated from German.

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Speaker 2: And so.

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Speaker 3: He actually doesn't read the document until October of 1982,

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Speaker 3: so three months after Kalinka's death, and it generates far

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Speaker 3: more questions than answers. The first unusual thing Andre notices

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Speaker 3: about the autopsy report is that in addition to the

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Speaker 3: medical examiner and two police officers being present, Dieter, the stepfather,

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Speaker 3: had also been present during the autopsy. In the report,

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Speaker 3: Andre also finds out that by the time Kalinka's body

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Speaker 3: had been found, a little after 10 a.m., rigor mortis

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Speaker 3: had already set in And this raises the question of

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Speaker 3: why Dieter had tried to administer any life-saving injections at all.

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Speaker 3: As a doctor, he would have known they would be ineffective.

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Speaker 3: But Kalinka had actually been brought to the medical examiner

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Speaker 3: with a needle still in her upper arm. Like, that's

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Speaker 3: how frantic he was trying to revive her, supposedly. Okay.

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Speaker 3: Andre reads that one injection had been administered to Kalinka

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Speaker 3: by Dieter the evening before. It had been iron cobalt.

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Speaker 3: which is not really a standard injection for anything aside

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Speaker 3: from severe anemia. And Dieter had said that he gave

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Speaker 3: it to her intending to help her tan. It was

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Speaker 3: just super fucking, what are you talking about, Rose? Immediately. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You'd stop me cold that he was in the autopsy.

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Speaker 3: Totally. I mean, he's a cardiologist, so it's not like

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00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,100
Speaker 3: he's a pretty high up doctor.

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Speaker 2: Yes. Right, but it's his stepdaughter, right?

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Speaker 3: No, and it's totally inappropriate. And it doesn't help people tan. Like,

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Speaker 3: I looked it up on Google. It's just not a thing.

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Speaker 3: So him saying that that's why he did it doesn't

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Speaker 3: make any sense. No toxicology tests were performed, though. Although

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Speaker 3: some tissue samples had been taken. Like, he's just injecting

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Speaker 3: her with shit and you don't do a toxicology report?

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Speaker 2: Well, and is it because he's in the room? Right.

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00:17:04,950 --> 00:17:08,359
Speaker 3: Exactly. There had been some physical evidence that would generally

403
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Speaker 3: lead to further investigation as to whether a sexual assault

404
00:17:11,540 --> 00:17:15,360
Speaker 3: had taken place. This evidence included some blood and there

405
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,700
Speaker 3: was also a small vaginal injury as well as an

406
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Speaker 3: unidentified substance found in her vagina, which never gets identified.

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Speaker 3: It's just... What's happening? Totally.

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Speaker 2: Like, what is this?

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Speaker 3: And most confusing of all is the fact that the

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Speaker 3: autopsy mentions that food particles had been found in Kalinka's lungs,

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Speaker 3: a clear sign that she had vomited and asphyxiated, which

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Speaker 3: would have caused her death. Like, that caused her death, clearly. That's...

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Speaker 3: What did it? But the autopsy does not draw this

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Speaker 3: conclusion and leaves her cause of death as unknown. So

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Speaker 3: Andre calls his ex-wife brimming with questions. And while she

416
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Speaker 3: is genuinely devastated, she doesn't seem to have answers. She

417
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Speaker 3: lets Dieter handle everything because she doesn't speak German. And

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Speaker 3: she's 100 percent behind her current husband that he would

419
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Speaker 3: never do something like this and is upset that Andre

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Speaker 3: is even looking into it.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So Andre petitions the German government to test the tissue

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Speaker 3: samples and have a Munich medical examiner analyze the findings

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Speaker 3: along with the autopsy results. And in early 1983, that

425
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Speaker 3: report is released. And this medical examiner says that the

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Speaker 3: iron cobalt injection could have caused vomiting and cardiac arrest,

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Speaker 3: especially after eating. So because of a lack of immune

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Speaker 3: response in any of Kalinka's surrounding tissues, the The medical

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Speaker 3: examiner believes that Kalinka asphyxiated and died very shortly after

430
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Speaker 3: being administered this injection. So meaning when he tried to

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Speaker 3: revive her that morning with multiple injections, I guess the

432
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Speaker 3: sight of them, they can tell that she hadn't been

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Speaker 3: alive for quite a while just based on the marking.

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Speaker 2: And yet he's a cardiologist giving those injections.

435
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,439
Speaker 3: Totally. And his timeline now doesn't add up. Because with

436
00:19:03,460 --> 00:19:06,240
Speaker 3: this information, then him seeing her around midnight telling her

437
00:19:06,300 --> 00:19:08,220
Speaker 3: to go to bed doesn't make any sense. Him waking up,

438
00:19:08,220 --> 00:19:12,940
Speaker 3: you know, it just completely blows it out. But German

439
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:19,090
Speaker 3: authorities still decline to prosecute Dieter, which leaves André dumbfounded. Yeah.

440
00:19:20,190 --> 00:19:23,330
Speaker 3: And there's definitely in the documentary this, like, you know,

441
00:19:23,410 --> 00:19:29,750
Speaker 3: mention of this, you know, permanent kind of adversarial relationship

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Speaker 3: with Germany and France and them Germany not wanting to

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Speaker 3: listen to this guy from France tell them what to do,

444
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Speaker 3: you know, tell them to go after one of their

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Speaker 3: own citizens. It's political. It sucks. And Andre kind of

446
00:19:44,050 --> 00:19:44,510
Speaker 3: knows that.

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Speaker 2: That's insane, though, that that would even come into a discussion.

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00:19:49,109 --> 00:19:49,330
Speaker 3: Totally.

449
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,510
Speaker 2: Someone, a young girl is dead. Yeah. It's not about that.

450
00:19:55,230 --> 00:19:59,030
Speaker 3: So a few months pass and Andre regroups. He's come

451
00:19:59,070 --> 00:20:02,350
Speaker 3: to the conclusion that Dieter murdered his daughter. And in

452
00:20:02,390 --> 00:20:05,330
Speaker 3: July of 1983, a year after his daughter's death, he

453
00:20:05,390 --> 00:20:09,490
Speaker 3: returns to Lindau and starts to distribute flyers around town.

454
00:20:10,550 --> 00:20:13,650
Speaker 3: The flyers say, quote, people of Lindau, you should know

455
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,220
Speaker 3: that a murderer, Dieter Kronbach, is living in your city.

456
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,820
Speaker 3: He raped and murdered my daughter on July 10th, 1982,

457
00:20:21,820 --> 00:20:24,399
Speaker 3: and his crime has been covered up by doctors, the

458
00:20:24,460 --> 00:20:28,980
Speaker 3: police commissioner, and the prosecutors. Please help me obtain justice.

459
00:20:29,540 --> 00:20:33,899
Speaker 3: end quote. Wow. So he goes full on. Ballistic. Yeah.

460
00:20:33,980 --> 00:20:37,030
Speaker 2: Wow. I mean, he's desperate.

461
00:20:37,109 --> 00:20:38,970
Speaker 3: He's just a desperate person. He's desperate.

462
00:20:39,230 --> 00:20:41,170
Speaker 2: And the first thing it made me think of is,

463
00:20:41,369 --> 00:20:45,350
Speaker 2: you know, in the some cults, the way that they

464
00:20:45,950 --> 00:20:48,770
Speaker 2: like get revenge or they keep people in is they

465
00:20:48,810 --> 00:20:49,790
Speaker 2: fly your neighborhoods.

466
00:20:49,910 --> 00:20:50,350
Speaker 3: Yeah.

467
00:20:50,369 --> 00:20:52,470
Speaker 2: Because when people get like out of the blue a

468
00:20:52,510 --> 00:20:55,020
Speaker 2: piece of paper, then it's like, this is the story.

469
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 2: And that kind of almost like sets the context of

470
00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:57,880
Speaker 2: the story.

471
00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:58,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

472
00:20:58,530 --> 00:21:01,129
Speaker 2: So doing, I bet that was, I mean, you're going

473
00:21:01,150 --> 00:21:03,730
Speaker 2: to tell me, but it just like, what a shocking

474
00:21:03,869 --> 00:21:04,970
Speaker 2: thing to people.

475
00:21:04,990 --> 00:21:07,850
Speaker 3: In his town where he lives and is a doctor. Yes.

476
00:21:08,550 --> 00:21:11,330
Speaker 2: So even if that, if the father, we know probably

477
00:21:11,450 --> 00:21:13,790
Speaker 2: he's not crazy, but if he was and did that,

478
00:21:14,150 --> 00:21:15,510
Speaker 2: there would be that result.

479
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:20,050
Speaker 3: Well, guess what? What? Andre is arrested. and winds up

480
00:21:20,090 --> 00:21:25,070
Speaker 3: being charged with defaming Dieter, disturbing the public order, and

481
00:21:25,210 --> 00:21:29,710
Speaker 3: injuring the reputation of the prosecutor. So, yeah, that's exactly—

482
00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:32,170
Speaker 3: So everyone says— So 100% the opposite.

483
00:21:32,210 --> 00:21:32,450
Speaker 1: Yeah.

484
00:21:33,430 --> 00:21:35,630
Speaker 3: Wow. He doesn't come back to Germany for his court

485
00:21:35,650 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 3: date and is sentenced in absentia to six months in prison.

486
00:21:39,740 --> 00:21:42,940
Speaker 3: But Kalinka had been a French citizen. And so once

487
00:21:43,020 --> 00:21:47,420
Speaker 3: presented with the evidence by André, the French government— opens

488
00:21:47,460 --> 00:21:50,939
Speaker 3: their own investigation. Oh, wow. That's his in. An investigation

489
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,740
Speaker 3: that Andre keeps pushing along with his constant requests for updates.

490
00:21:55,180 --> 00:21:58,590
Speaker 3: I mean, if there's anyone you want on your side, detail-wise,

491
00:21:58,790 --> 00:21:59,510
Speaker 3: it's an accountant.

492
00:22:00,109 --> 00:22:02,850
Speaker 2: An angry, like, how-dare-you accountant.

493
00:22:03,050 --> 00:22:03,570
Speaker 3: Father.

494
00:22:03,710 --> 00:22:07,470
Speaker 2: Yes. But he's right in that way that, like, you

495
00:22:07,510 --> 00:22:11,090
Speaker 2: didn't do the basic, give the basic respect to this death.

496
00:22:11,210 --> 00:22:11,590
Speaker 3: Totally.

497
00:22:11,630 --> 00:22:16,390
Speaker 2: Because it's a young girl's dead... Figure out what happened.

498
00:22:16,750 --> 00:22:19,130
Speaker 3: And I'm sure he feels, you know, as any parent would,

499
00:22:19,230 --> 00:22:20,490
Speaker 3: like somewhat responsible.

500
00:22:20,510 --> 00:22:20,590
Speaker 1: Sure.

501
00:22:20,950 --> 00:22:24,010
Speaker 3: That he let his young daughter go off with. I mean,

502
00:22:24,030 --> 00:22:26,070
Speaker 3: this is what's so crazy to me about, you know,

503
00:22:26,590 --> 00:22:29,869
Speaker 3: divorce and then the parents getting with someone else. You

504
00:22:29,890 --> 00:22:32,230
Speaker 3: have no idea who that person is that they're getting

505
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 3: with or what they're like, what they're about. And you

506
00:22:34,780 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 3: just have to trust that your kid's going to be

507
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 3: OK and that they are not monsters. Right. That sounds

508
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 3: so difficult. Yes.

509
00:22:43,130 --> 00:22:43,670
Speaker 2: Horrifying.

510
00:22:43,690 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I'm sure in a way he feels like

511
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,700
Speaker 3: he needs to atone to his daughter.

512
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,020
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just such a gigantic loss like that.

513
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

514
00:22:53,380 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 2: That, yeah.

515
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,199
Speaker 3: And I feel like she was such their, like, his

516
00:22:59,260 --> 00:23:01,379
Speaker 3: beam of light in this, like, fucked up world. At

517
00:23:01,420 --> 00:23:03,830
Speaker 3: least he gets to see his, you know, beautiful daughter

518
00:23:03,869 --> 00:23:06,650
Speaker 3: succeed in life. And it's just taken away from him.

519
00:23:08,869 --> 00:23:13,380
Speaker 3: Trigger warning. There's some upsetting details coming up. So in 1985,

520
00:23:13,380 --> 00:23:17,389
Speaker 3: French authorities exhumed Kalinka's body. And at this point, it

521
00:23:17,460 --> 00:23:21,129
Speaker 3: is discovered that Kalinka's genitals had been completely removed from

522
00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:25,290
Speaker 3: her body before she had been buried. And German authorities

523
00:23:25,330 --> 00:23:27,910
Speaker 3: say they have no idea why or how this happened

524
00:23:28,170 --> 00:23:30,850
Speaker 3: or where this part of Kalinka's body had gone.

525
00:23:31,750 --> 00:23:33,390
Speaker 2: I mean, like, what?

526
00:23:33,590 --> 00:23:35,370
Speaker 3: What are we talking about? Exactly. Exactly.

527
00:23:36,510 --> 00:23:40,419
Speaker 2: And sorry, then the autopsy doesn't reflect anything?

528
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,500
Speaker 3: It says stuff. It's the tear, the blood, some fluid.

529
00:23:46,060 --> 00:23:48,340
Speaker 3: But there's no way to, you know, see if the

530
00:23:48,380 --> 00:23:51,980
Speaker 3: tear was like when that happened, if it was from

531
00:23:52,300 --> 00:23:55,330
Speaker 3: sexual assault, because it's not there. It's just gone.

532
00:23:55,530 --> 00:23:55,830
Speaker 2: God.

533
00:23:55,850 --> 00:23:57,390
Speaker 1: I mean.

534
00:23:57,410 --> 00:23:59,189
Speaker 2: That's so extreme. That's so horrifying.

535
00:23:59,210 --> 00:24:03,689
Speaker 3: Yeah. The investigation takes years with those same tissue samples

536
00:24:03,730 --> 00:24:07,169
Speaker 3: being analyzed. And the findings being similar to those of

537
00:24:07,230 --> 00:24:11,730
Speaker 3: the Munich medical examiner. And ultimately, in 1993, nine years

538
00:24:11,830 --> 00:24:17,230
Speaker 3: after Kalinka's death, a French court charges Dieter with voluntary homicide. Oh.

539
00:24:18,250 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 3: But Germany refuses to extradite Dieter. So he's tried in absentia. Mm-hmm. Right?

540
00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:29,619
Speaker 3: He's tried in absentia, found guilty, and sentenced to 15

541
00:24:29,619 --> 00:24:31,219
Speaker 3: years in prison. Wow.

542
00:24:31,460 --> 00:24:31,980
Speaker 2: In France.

543
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,929
Speaker 3: Uh-huh. So, of course, he never has to serve the

544
00:24:34,970 --> 00:24:37,670
Speaker 3: sentence as long as he never sets foot in France again,

545
00:24:38,030 --> 00:24:41,210
Speaker 3: which he doesn't plan to.

546
00:24:42,070 --> 00:24:44,330
Speaker 2: What are the connections this guy has? Are you going

547
00:24:44,369 --> 00:24:45,310
Speaker 2: to explain this to me?

548
00:24:45,450 --> 00:24:48,710
Speaker 3: Because you know how they treat doctors like fucking gods.

549
00:24:48,730 --> 00:24:49,300
Speaker 3: For real.

550
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,980
Speaker 2: This is like Alec Baldwin in that movie where he's like,

551
00:24:52,300 --> 00:24:55,420
Speaker 2: I don't play God, I am God. Because he's a cardiologist.

552
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just that cocky, like German attitude of sorry. Easy, easy.

553
00:25:00,670 --> 00:25:04,209
Speaker 2: But also, it is the weird thing of, because you

554
00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:05,830
Speaker 2: said it earlier, it's like hierarchy.

555
00:25:05,950 --> 00:25:06,110
Speaker 3: Yeah.

556
00:25:06,330 --> 00:25:08,890
Speaker 2: Where it's like, it's the cardiologist in the room with the.

557
00:25:09,070 --> 00:25:11,550
Speaker 3: Yeah. With the. So I'm sure he outranks.

558
00:25:11,650 --> 00:25:12,909
Speaker 2: Coroner or whoever.

559
00:25:12,930 --> 00:25:13,630
Speaker 3: Totally.

560
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,940
Speaker 2: And is calling the shots and saying what needs to happen.

561
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Which is why he shouldn't be in the autopsy room. Right.

562
00:25:20,980 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 3: And this guy is so cocky and so like such

563
00:25:24,980 --> 00:25:29,939
Speaker 3: a creep. So then in 1997. A 16-year-old goes to

564
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:35,360
Speaker 3: Dieter's practice for an endoscopic examination. Yep. When she gets there,

565
00:25:35,380 --> 00:25:37,540
Speaker 3: his assistant is out to lunch, so he's alone in

566
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,580
Speaker 3: the office, and he tells this 16-year-old girl that the

567
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,909
Speaker 3: examination is uncomfortable, so he's going to administer an anesthetic.

568
00:25:45,590 --> 00:25:47,770
Speaker 3: We all know where this is going. When she wakes up,

569
00:25:47,869 --> 00:25:51,490
Speaker 3: he is sexually assaulting her. Dieter seems to believe that

570
00:25:51,590 --> 00:25:54,430
Speaker 3: this girl isn't going to report him, but she does

571
00:25:54,730 --> 00:25:57,650
Speaker 3: as soon as she gets home. And her parents pressed charges.

572
00:25:58,070 --> 00:26:01,190
Speaker 3: And over the course of this trial, several other victims

573
00:26:01,390 --> 00:26:04,389
Speaker 3: come forward, saying that the doctor had also given them

574
00:26:04,430 --> 00:26:07,730
Speaker 3: injections that had knocked them out and he had assaulted them,

575
00:26:08,190 --> 00:26:11,740
Speaker 3: although he's not prosecuted for these additional cases. So it's

576
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,300
Speaker 3: a pattern now. He is found guilty of the assault

577
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 3: of the 16-year-old girl and sentenced to two years in prison. However,

578
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 3: even though multiple women have testified that he also drugged

579
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,530
Speaker 3: and raped them, the judge chooses to suspend his sentence.

580
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,659
Speaker 3: Allowing him to go free without doing any time in prison.

581
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,010
Speaker 3: So clearly they're all in some fucking secret club.

582
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,030
Speaker 2: I mean, what is that, though? What is the, this

583
00:26:36,109 --> 00:26:39,470
Speaker 2: is a person who has intentionally harmed multiple people?

584
00:26:39,490 --> 00:26:42,070
Speaker 3: What is it? It's men covering each other's fucking tracks.

585
00:26:42,090 --> 00:26:42,830
Speaker 3: I know, but I mean, yeah.

586
00:26:43,230 --> 00:26:44,690
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

587
00:26:46,130 --> 00:26:47,770
Speaker 2: I'm not going to argue with you on that one.

588
00:26:48,050 --> 00:26:51,410
Speaker 2: I mean, Jesus Christ. But it's like, I honestly, it's like,

589
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,300
Speaker 2: but why? Like, what is the ultimately, so you can

590
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: do it later? What is the value of that?

591
00:26:58,340 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 3: Well, it's the same thing as when they say like, well,

592
00:27:00,340 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 3: we don't want to ruin the rest of this young

593
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:02,460
Speaker 3: man's life.

594
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 2: Right.

595
00:27:03,060 --> 00:27:04,109
Speaker 3: Fuck you.

596
00:27:04,380 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: Right.

597
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,719
Speaker 3: Without a second thought to the victim.

598
00:27:06,740 --> 00:27:07,390
Speaker 1: Yeah.

599
00:27:07,970 --> 00:27:10,950
Speaker 3: But don't worry, he does lose his medical license. He does.

600
00:27:11,030 --> 00:27:11,670
Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay.

601
00:27:12,109 --> 00:27:12,330
Speaker 3: But.

602
00:27:12,550 --> 00:27:15,170
Speaker 2: That's something. I mean, I truly thought it was like,

603
00:27:15,730 --> 00:27:18,770
Speaker 2: And he was supported in his practice and, you.

604
00:27:18,690 --> 00:27:20,670
Speaker 3: Know, whatever. I mean, the good thing is that a

605
00:27:20,730 --> 00:27:23,270
Speaker 3: lot of the German public in that town were very

606
00:27:23,330 --> 00:27:26,590
Speaker 3: upset about him not getting any prison time. And I

607
00:27:26,630 --> 00:27:29,790
Speaker 3: guess it was a big, big deal. So thankfully.

608
00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:30,830
Speaker 2: And what was the year?

609
00:27:31,570 --> 00:27:36,310
Speaker 3: At this point, it's 1997 or 8. Yeah. Yeah. So

610
00:27:36,530 --> 00:27:40,210
Speaker 3: now knowing this is Dieter's pattern, Andre becomes even more obsessive.

611
00:27:40,260 --> 00:27:43,260
Speaker 3: He's like, This proved my point. I'm not crazy for

612
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 3: going after him the way everyone has been saying, not everyone,

613
00:27:46,180 --> 00:27:48,619
Speaker 3: but the way people have been saying I am. And

614
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,570
Speaker 3: so once again, he sees Dieter tried and convicted and

615
00:27:51,619 --> 00:27:53,980
Speaker 3: not serving any prison time. And he's trying to keep

616
00:27:54,030 --> 00:27:56,090
Speaker 3: an eye on Dieter's movements within Germany, but he seems

617
00:27:56,130 --> 00:27:59,770
Speaker 3: to be moving around different towns a lot. So Andre

618
00:28:00,170 --> 00:28:03,189
Speaker 3: has a network of people who have his back and

619
00:28:03,210 --> 00:28:06,609
Speaker 3: they're willing to help him keep eyes on Dieter. And

620
00:28:06,630 --> 00:28:09,970
Speaker 3: he learns that Dieter is living in the town of

621
00:28:10,170 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 3: Scheidegg in Germany, right by the Austrian border. And at

622
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,540
Speaker 3: this point, there's a ticking clock for Dieter to face

623
00:28:16,580 --> 00:28:20,379
Speaker 3: justice in France. The statute of limitations on Dieter's French

624
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,500
Speaker 3: charges will run out in 2012, which we've talked about before.

625
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 3: Why are there statute of limitations on any violent crime?

626
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,140
Speaker 3: In the fall of 2009, André hears from his network

627
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,500
Speaker 3: that Dieter might be preparing to move back to Morocco,

628
00:28:35,540 --> 00:28:38,350
Speaker 3: where he had lived before. And also he finds out

629
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,590
Speaker 3: that Dieter is still practicing medicine as like a traveling doctor,

630
00:28:43,130 --> 00:28:47,530
Speaker 3: despite the fact that he lost his medical license. So

631
00:28:48,170 --> 00:28:50,430
Speaker 3: knowing that Dieter is going to leave, this is his

632
00:28:50,490 --> 00:28:54,470
Speaker 3: last chance to keep track of him in Germany and

633
00:28:54,530 --> 00:28:57,070
Speaker 3: seeing no other options, Andrei starts going around to every

634
00:28:57,130 --> 00:29:00,610
Speaker 3: cafe and bar in town and has loud conversations with

635
00:29:00,750 --> 00:29:03,210
Speaker 3: anyone who will talk to him, proposing a scenario in

636
00:29:03,890 --> 00:29:07,310
Speaker 3: which someone might kidnap Dieter. And bring him to France.

637
00:29:08,450 --> 00:29:10,710
Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't think we were going to go there.

638
00:29:10,730 --> 00:29:13,050
Speaker 3: We're going there. Okay. This is the subject line. I

639
00:29:13,070 --> 00:29:16,350
Speaker 3: couldn't read you. Okay. Okay. We're bringing in Jason Statham

640
00:29:16,390 --> 00:29:17,790
Speaker 3: if he were in a metal band at this point

641
00:29:17,850 --> 00:29:19,990
Speaker 3: right now. Okay. That character. I'm 100%.

642
00:29:19,990 --> 00:29:24,230
Speaker 2: I'm 2,000% in now. It's suddenly become a Jason Statham movie.

643
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,140
Speaker 3: Great. This is the story of the dad who got

644
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 3: his daughter's murderer kidnapped so he could face charges in France.

645
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

646
00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 3: Fucking amazing.

647
00:29:32,420 --> 00:29:35,300
Speaker 2: He went into an old... an old bar where it

648
00:29:35,340 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 2: just was old guys in fisherman sweaters who had their

649
00:29:37,860 --> 00:29:40,220
Speaker 2: back to him and then he told his story and

650
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 2: they all rose up behind him.

651
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,340
Speaker 3: I mean, this guy's a character. So in early October,

652
00:29:44,660 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 3: Andre gets a call in his hotel room in Austria.

653
00:29:47,500 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 3: The man on the phone introduces himself as Anton, and

654
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,860
Speaker 3: he says he will bring Dieter to France, and he's

655
00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:58,210
Speaker 3: going to do it for free just for humanitarian reasons,

656
00:29:58,250 --> 00:30:02,510
Speaker 3: he says. Oh. Yep. He doesn't want any money. And

657
00:30:02,550 --> 00:30:06,210
Speaker 3: he asks for money to cover his expenses. Basically, the

658
00:30:06,270 --> 00:30:09,210
Speaker 3: expenses are he has to hire two, like, Russian gang

659
00:30:09,250 --> 00:30:13,850
Speaker 3: members to help him. Right. It's so bananas.

660
00:30:14,110 --> 00:30:18,510
Speaker 2: But also I love, and sorry, but in this, the

661
00:30:18,610 --> 00:30:22,630
Speaker 2: idea that potentially there's like a psychopath out there that's

662
00:30:22,670 --> 00:30:25,190
Speaker 2: like a killer for hire that's like, hold on a second,

663
00:30:25,250 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 2: you've offended my sensibilities. Like, I don't have any of

664
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,740
Speaker 2: that moral compass, and I'm still horrified by what you

665
00:30:32,780 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 2: people have done.

666
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:35,790
Speaker 3: It's like, I'm going to do, I'm going to use

667
00:30:35,810 --> 00:30:39,070
Speaker 3: my powers of evil. For good. For good. Yeah.

668
00:30:39,170 --> 00:30:41,470
Speaker 2: It's the show Barry. It's why you love the show Barry.

669
00:30:41,510 --> 00:30:45,310
Speaker 3: This is basically a passion project for Anton. He will

670
00:30:45,350 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 3: later say that he is deeply affected by Andre's story

671
00:30:48,060 --> 00:30:50,660
Speaker 3: and his persistence over 30 years to bring his daughter's

672
00:30:50,740 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 3: killer to justice. So Anton and André meet on a

673
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 3: park bench, and André asks, like, what are you going

674
00:30:55,980 --> 00:30:57,860
Speaker 3: to do? And Anton's like, it's better that you don't

675
00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 3: know any details.

676
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,330
Speaker 2: Like, it's a fucking total, like— Plausible deniability.

677
00:31:01,610 --> 00:31:06,010
Speaker 3: Spy movie. Yes. So Anton tells him to go back

678
00:31:06,050 --> 00:31:09,910
Speaker 3: to France and await a phone call. Wow. So the

679
00:31:09,970 --> 00:31:14,130
Speaker 3: call comes on October 17th. That night, André picks up

680
00:31:14,150 --> 00:31:17,470
Speaker 3: the phone, and he's basically told to call the police

681
00:31:17,590 --> 00:31:21,150
Speaker 3: in a town called Malouse, France, which is right over

682
00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:23,870
Speaker 3: the German border. And Dieter is there tied up, and

683
00:31:23,890 --> 00:31:25,350
Speaker 3: so he calls the police and tells them where to

684
00:31:25,390 --> 00:31:25,750
Speaker 3: find him.

685
00:31:26,170 --> 00:31:27,620
Speaker 2: Just in, like, a ditch or something?

686
00:31:27,970 --> 00:31:32,020
Speaker 3: No, they basically— Dieter, who's now 74 years old, he's found

687
00:31:32,140 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 3: bruised and bloody and dumped in the street.

688
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:35,340
Speaker 2: Oh.

689
00:31:35,340 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 3: Like, in the street.

690
00:31:36,220 --> 00:31:37,460
Speaker 2: Just put into France.

691
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 3: Yep, just like they— yeah.

692
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

693
00:31:40,050 --> 00:31:42,590
Speaker 3: He tells police he had been kidnapped from his home,

694
00:31:43,030 --> 00:31:46,190
Speaker 3: driven through the night, and was dumped on the street.

695
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:49,210
Speaker 3: And when he's found he's in pretty bad shape, he's

696
00:31:49,510 --> 00:31:52,660
Speaker 3: trussed and gagged and bleeding— And so the way Anton

697
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,950
Speaker 3: tells the story is that he had rung Dieter's doorbell,

698
00:31:55,250 --> 00:31:57,470
Speaker 3: backed up a few paces. As soon as Dieter came

699
00:31:57,650 --> 00:32:01,170
Speaker 3: out of the door, his two accomplices tackled him, dragged

700
00:32:01,190 --> 00:32:04,190
Speaker 3: him into the car. He doesn't explicitly mention that in

701
00:32:04,270 --> 00:32:07,300
Speaker 3: his altercation they had injured Dieter's head. I mean, they

702
00:32:07,540 --> 00:32:09,239
Speaker 3: kind of roughed him up. Yeah. You know?

703
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:09,740
Speaker 2: Yeah.

704
00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:14,060
Speaker 3: Neighbors found blood on the ground, Dieter's glasses, and a slipper.

705
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: Oof.

706
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,620
Speaker 3: Yeah. That said... He's found alive in France and he

707
00:32:19,780 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 3: recovers from his injuries in a prison hospital. And in 2011,

708
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,460
Speaker 3: he's actually brought to trial in France for Kalinka's murder.

709
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 2: Wow.

710
00:32:27,610 --> 00:32:31,210
Speaker 3: At the trial, Deere's lawyers argue that vigilante justice cannot

711
00:32:31,230 --> 00:32:35,110
Speaker 3: lead to legitimate lawful justice. Like if they try him,

712
00:32:35,890 --> 00:32:38,850
Speaker 3: like based on how he got here, it's vigilante justice

713
00:32:38,930 --> 00:32:41,970
Speaker 3: or it's like, OK, OK, vigilante justice. And we're like,

714
00:32:42,530 --> 00:32:43,330
Speaker 3: fuck that.

715
00:32:43,810 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: Well, it's just that. They tried regular justice and it

716
00:32:46,940 --> 00:32:51,930
Speaker 2: did not work. It worked only for the bad guy.

717
00:32:51,990 --> 00:32:56,250
Speaker 3: Right. The prosecution presents all of the evidence from Kalinka's death.

718
00:32:56,970 --> 00:32:59,870
Speaker 3: At least five women testify for the prosecutor saying that

719
00:32:59,890 --> 00:33:02,950
Speaker 3: Dieter had raped them after giving them injections that had

720
00:33:03,050 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 3: incapacitated them. It's really upsetting that the mother, up until

721
00:33:08,500 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 3: this point, is still... They've divorced at this point and

722
00:33:12,180 --> 00:33:14,830
Speaker 3: she's still totally backing... Dieter.

723
00:33:14,850 --> 00:33:15,750
Speaker 2: She's in denial.

724
00:33:15,770 --> 00:33:18,930
Speaker 3: She's in total denial. Also because like if it's true

725
00:33:18,950 --> 00:33:22,230
Speaker 3: and it happened right under your nose and then from

726
00:33:22,270 --> 00:33:26,190
Speaker 3: this trial she finds out that there's multiple young teenage

727
00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:29,210
Speaker 3: girls who have been injected and sexually assaulted and raped

728
00:33:29,330 --> 00:33:34,010
Speaker 3: by him and that also an old neighbor comes forward

729
00:33:34,090 --> 00:33:38,650
Speaker 3: saying that she had an affair with him while he

730
00:33:38,690 --> 00:33:41,810
Speaker 3: was still married to the wife and he would give

731
00:33:41,850 --> 00:33:44,380
Speaker 3: her sleeping pills and So they could have the affair

732
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:45,650
Speaker 3: in the house without her waking up.

733
00:33:46,220 --> 00:33:48,420
Speaker 2: So the wife was also being drugged. Yeah. Just so

734
00:33:48,460 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 2: that he could do what he wanted.

735
00:33:49,460 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 3: Yeah. So he's just an evil man.

736
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:52,820
Speaker 2: He's a monster.

737
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,020
Speaker 3: During the preparations for this trial, Kalinka's tissue samples had

738
00:33:56,060 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 3: been retested with modern techniques. And they revealed the presence

739
00:34:00,380 --> 00:34:05,730
Speaker 3: of benzodiazepine, which demonstrates that Dieter had injected benzodiazepine. Kalinka

740
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,820
Speaker 3: and likely his other victims, not only with iron cobalt,

741
00:34:08,980 --> 00:34:11,460
Speaker 3: but with a substance specifically meant to incapacitate her, which

742
00:34:11,500 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 3: is why you do a tox screening on a suspicious

743
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 3: young girl's death. Like, they would have found that then.

744
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,340
Speaker 2: That's why you do the same thing every single time

745
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,110
Speaker 2: for everybody, no matter who they are.

746
00:34:22,130 --> 00:34:22,470
Speaker 3: Totally.

747
00:34:22,550 --> 00:34:24,310
Speaker 2: And no matter what doctor is standing in the room.

748
00:34:24,370 --> 00:34:27,930
Speaker 3: Exactly. So family members of both Dieter and Andre testify

749
00:34:27,989 --> 00:34:31,210
Speaker 3: with Dieter's, his children stand by him and defend him,

750
00:34:31,230 --> 00:34:32,830
Speaker 3: adult children. Imagine.

751
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,339
Speaker 2: Imagine if it was a truth. I mean, it's just— I.

752
00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 3: Just feel like even though it's your parent, you have

753
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 3: to look at the evidence. You can stand by him

754
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,610
Speaker 3: and say he's done bad things and still stand by him. Right.

755
00:34:47,989 --> 00:34:52,990
Speaker 2: But then they're on the inside with this, like, sociopath

756
00:34:53,050 --> 00:34:56,130
Speaker 2: charming you and telling— and also they've lived with this person.

757
00:34:56,150 --> 00:34:56,450
Speaker 3: Yeah.

758
00:34:56,510 --> 00:34:57,730
Speaker 2: Like, they're in the cult already.

759
00:34:57,790 --> 00:35:02,700
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's very true. Danielle, now divorced from Dieter, testifies.

760
00:35:03,500 --> 00:35:06,100
Speaker 3: And while she doesn't say she explicitly thinks Dieter killed

761
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,110
Speaker 3: her daughter, she's no longer defending him. And she says

762
00:35:09,410 --> 00:35:13,270
Speaker 3: he was attracted to teenagers. After the trial ends, the

763
00:35:13,310 --> 00:35:17,250
Speaker 3: jury deliberates for four hours before finding Dieter guilty. He's

764
00:35:17,290 --> 00:35:22,350
Speaker 3: sentenced to 15 years in prison. After the trial, Andre says, quote, Obviously,

765
00:35:22,410 --> 00:35:25,450
Speaker 3: my first thought is for Kalinka. Justice has been done

766
00:35:25,510 --> 00:35:27,730
Speaker 3: in her honor. And now I will be able to

767
00:35:27,790 --> 00:35:31,989
Speaker 3: grieve for her. Dieter launches multiple appeals, all of which

768
00:35:32,070 --> 00:35:36,700
Speaker 3: are rejected. He's released due to health problems in February

769
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 3: of 2020 and dies a few months later in September

770
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,259
Speaker 3: at the age of 85 after finally serving time for

771
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,630
Speaker 3: murdering Kalinka. And then Andre and Anton are both charged

772
00:35:47,690 --> 00:35:51,950
Speaker 3: for Dieter's kidnapping. Anton is sentenced to one year in prison,

773
00:35:51,989 --> 00:35:55,290
Speaker 3: which he serves in Austria. And in the documentary, he's

774
00:35:55,350 --> 00:35:58,270
Speaker 3: just like, he goes home and he's like, My parents

775
00:35:58,310 --> 00:36:00,259
Speaker 3: are proud of me. Everyone is proud of me. Like,

776
00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 3: he's a local hero.

777
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

778
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:02,900
Speaker 3: Yes.

779
00:36:03,140 --> 00:36:08,100
Speaker 2: He took care of business when the system wouldn't do it.

780
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. I fucking love that guy. At his own trial,

781
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,370
Speaker 3: Andre openly admits to his participation. He says, quote, something

782
00:36:15,410 --> 00:36:18,069
Speaker 3: had to be done. You know the expression, I made

783
00:36:18,090 --> 00:36:21,110
Speaker 3: the omelet, but it was also necessary to break the eggs,

784
00:36:21,590 --> 00:36:24,650
Speaker 3: end quote. He's found guilty. The judge sentences him to

785
00:36:24,770 --> 00:36:27,670
Speaker 3: one year in prison. and immediately suspends the sentence.

786
00:36:27,890 --> 00:36:30,950
Speaker 2: Thank God. I was going to get so mad if

787
00:36:31,010 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 2: he had to do it.

788
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And that is the story of the murder

789
00:36:35,020 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 3: of Kalinka Van Berski and her father's 30-year quest to

790
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 3: bring her killer to justice.

791
00:36:41,060 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 2: That is, it's so sad, and then it's so satisfying.

792
00:36:45,140 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

793
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,700
Speaker 2: It's like, there's these monsters in the world. Then there's

794
00:36:48,739 --> 00:36:51,500
Speaker 2: also these great people in the world that are like,

795
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,100
Speaker 2: you know what? Because also a father having to do

796
00:36:54,140 --> 00:36:56,300
Speaker 2: all that by himself. In grief.

797
00:36:56,860 --> 00:36:57,550
Speaker 3: Yeah. You know what I mean?

798
00:36:57,660 --> 00:36:59,910
Speaker 2: Trying to figure out what to do. And it's like

799
00:36:59,930 --> 00:37:01,210
Speaker 2: to get a call in the middle of the night,

800
00:37:01,230 --> 00:37:03,430
Speaker 2: it's like, don't worry, the bad guys are going to

801
00:37:03,469 --> 00:37:04,730
Speaker 2: take care of the worst guy.

802
00:37:04,750 --> 00:37:05,530
Speaker 3: We're on your side.

803
00:37:05,550 --> 00:37:06,070
Speaker 2: Yeah.

804
00:37:06,130 --> 00:37:07,350
Speaker 3: That's the bad guy. Yeah.

805
00:37:08,690 --> 00:37:09,270
Speaker 2: Nice one.

806
00:37:09,310 --> 00:37:09,570
Speaker 3: Yeah.

807
00:37:09,770 --> 00:37:15,980
Speaker 2: That was really good. Let's turn so far left.

808
00:37:16,020 --> 00:37:16,420
Speaker 3: Please.

809
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 2: Let's go all the way around the block and then

810
00:37:18,940 --> 00:37:24,089
Speaker 2: out of this neighborhood into a very different A lighter neighborhood. Yeah.

811
00:37:24,390 --> 00:37:25,510
Speaker 2: Where different things happen.

812
00:37:25,630 --> 00:37:25,970
Speaker 3: Okay.

813
00:37:27,130 --> 00:37:27,850
Speaker 2: You're going to like this.

814
00:37:27,930 --> 00:37:28,790
Speaker 3: Okay. I think.

815
00:37:30,230 --> 00:37:35,090
Speaker 2: This story starts just outside of London at Elstree Studios

816
00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:38,069
Speaker 2: during a taping of the TV show, Who Wants to

817
00:37:38,090 --> 00:37:40,370
Speaker 2: Be a Millionaire? You know, that's where it started. Okay.

818
00:37:41,610 --> 00:37:42,109
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.

819
00:37:42,469 --> 00:37:45,310
Speaker 2: Yeah, originally. Okay. Over the years, there have been many

820
00:37:45,410 --> 00:37:49,180
Speaker 2: international versions of the show, but it first aired in

821
00:37:49,219 --> 00:37:53,149
Speaker 2: the U.K. in 1998. And by its peak in 1999,

822
00:37:53,150 --> 00:37:58,310
Speaker 2: British Millionaire is a huge cultural phenomenon. About 19 million

823
00:37:58,410 --> 00:38:02,660
Speaker 2: people watch every episode. That's about a third of the

824
00:38:02,820 --> 00:38:04,660
Speaker 2: UK's population at the time.

825
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 3: And that's when you couldn't record TV. You had to

826
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 3: tune in.

827
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 2: Yep. They called it appointment television. You all had to

828
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 2: meet up at the right time.

829
00:38:13,660 --> 00:38:14,660
Speaker 3: It sucked.

830
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,060
Speaker 2: Pre-TVO. It was a dark time.

831
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 3: Pre-TVO. So.

832
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,690
Speaker 2: Because everybody, quote unquote, wants to be a millionaire, getting

833
00:38:21,730 --> 00:38:24,489
Speaker 2: through the screening process of that game show to be

834
00:38:24,530 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 2: a contestant is a feat in and of itself. If

835
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,980
Speaker 2: you are selected, you join nine other contestants at your taping,

836
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 2: and then you have to beat them in a time

837
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,250
Speaker 2: trivia question known as The Faster Finger Round.

838
00:38:37,370 --> 00:38:37,850
Speaker 3: Oh, my God.

839
00:38:37,890 --> 00:38:40,230
Speaker 2: Do you know Millionaire enough to know any of that?

840
00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:41,230
Speaker 3: I'm probably not.

841
00:38:41,330 --> 00:38:44,450
Speaker 2: It's basically like there's an opening question and the person

842
00:38:44,510 --> 00:38:48,750
Speaker 2: that gets it the fastest and correct, it becomes the

843
00:38:48,790 --> 00:38:50,070
Speaker 2: contestant of the main show.

844
00:38:50,130 --> 00:38:50,340
Speaker 3: Wow.

845
00:38:51,180 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 2: So even if you make it to the studio as

846
00:38:53,540 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 2: a potential contestant, there's no guarantee you will end up

847
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,900
Speaker 2: in the hot seat. But someone always does. And on

848
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 2: September 9th, 2001, a British Army major in his late

849
00:39:03,219 --> 00:39:07,060
Speaker 2: 30s named Charles Ingram— is the fastest finger. So he

850
00:39:07,140 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 2: ends up going down to the stage and taking his

851
00:39:09,260 --> 00:39:14,739
Speaker 2: seat opposite the Regis Philbin of England, but first a

852
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,530
Speaker 2: man named Chris Tarrant. I'm sure that people get pissed

853
00:39:17,590 --> 00:39:20,540
Speaker 2: off if I compare Chris Tarrant, who is the OG

854
00:39:20,540 --> 00:39:25,010
Speaker 2: who wants to be a millionaire host, to our secondary.

855
00:39:25,010 --> 00:39:27,969
Speaker 2: And yet still a big deal, We just built it.

856
00:39:29,450 --> 00:39:31,339
Speaker 2: Did I ever tell you that my dad... Every time

857
00:39:31,390 --> 00:39:33,370
Speaker 2: Regis Philbin was on TV, my dad would get mad

858
00:39:33,410 --> 00:39:33,950
Speaker 2: and leave the room.

859
00:39:33,989 --> 00:39:34,430
Speaker 1: Why?

860
00:39:34,450 --> 00:39:35,569
Speaker 3: He hated Regis Philbin?

861
00:39:35,790 --> 00:39:38,089
Speaker 2: He had some serious, there's some people he doesn't like.

862
00:39:38,230 --> 00:39:39,170
Speaker 3: I love that.

863
00:39:39,230 --> 00:39:39,950
Speaker 2: Regis was one of them.

864
00:39:40,030 --> 00:39:42,670
Speaker 3: That's like when two cats don't like, come in the neighborhood,

865
00:39:42,710 --> 00:39:45,290
Speaker 3: don't like each other. You're like, why? Way far away.

866
00:39:45,550 --> 00:39:47,570
Speaker 2: But this would be like, and one cat's just walking

867
00:39:47,610 --> 00:39:52,370
Speaker 2: by having a great life and the other one's just like. Okay,

868
00:39:52,410 --> 00:39:56,969
Speaker 2: so Charles, the contestant, is wearing a colorful patchwork polo shirt.

869
00:39:57,489 --> 00:40:00,150
Speaker 2: And a goofy smile. We do have a picture of him.

870
00:40:00,330 --> 00:40:02,569
Speaker 2: So this is the person that this is all built,

871
00:40:02,790 --> 00:40:03,810
Speaker 2: this whole story's about.

872
00:40:03,850 --> 00:40:07,270
Speaker 3: That is such a 90s t-shirt, like a 90s shirt. Yeah.

873
00:40:07,290 --> 00:40:07,990
Speaker 3: I can't even.

874
00:40:08,219 --> 00:40:08,930
Speaker 2: Multicolor.

875
00:40:08,950 --> 00:40:10,220
Speaker 3: Yeah, we love color block.

876
00:40:10,620 --> 00:40:12,899
Speaker 2: Color blocking. It came right before hypercolor.

877
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. Colors.

878
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 2: Chris Tarrant asks Charles if he wants to play millionaire,

879
00:40:18,540 --> 00:40:23,770
Speaker 2: and he excitedly shouts back, quote, is the Pope Catholic? Classic.

880
00:40:24,030 --> 00:40:25,650
Speaker 3: Good one already. Off to a good start.

881
00:40:25,670 --> 00:40:25,790
Speaker 1: Right?

882
00:40:26,350 --> 00:40:29,230
Speaker 2: It's going to be good TV. So now Charles will

883
00:40:29,270 --> 00:40:32,350
Speaker 2: be asked 15 questions that increase in both value and

884
00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:35,420
Speaker 2: difficulty as the game goes. If he can make it

885
00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 2: to the last question, he wins one million pounds. At

886
00:40:39,219 --> 00:40:43,700
Speaker 2: this point in the show's roughly four-year history, only two

887
00:40:43,820 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 2: people have ever gone that far on who wants to

888
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,489
Speaker 2: be a millionaire. So the odds aren't great. But this

889
00:40:50,620 --> 00:40:53,650
Speaker 2: is where the lifelines come in. So that's basically if

890
00:40:53,690 --> 00:40:56,170
Speaker 2: Charles doesn't know an answer— He can either take his

891
00:40:56,210 --> 00:40:58,710
Speaker 2: winnings and walk away, or he can risk it all

892
00:40:59,150 --> 00:41:02,529
Speaker 2: and use a lifeline, either 50-50 where two of the

893
00:41:02,610 --> 00:41:06,569
Speaker 2: answers go away, so it's like one of, you know,

894
00:41:07,530 --> 00:41:10,340
Speaker 2: or phone a friend, which you call a smart person

895
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,540
Speaker 2: you know, and have them help you, or you can

896
00:41:12,580 --> 00:41:16,259
Speaker 2: ask the audience. So that's how it normally goes. But

897
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: Charles Ingram will prove to be no ordinary player. And

898
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 2: he's about to go down, for better or worse, in

899
00:41:22,540 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 2: Who Wants to Be a Millionaire history.

900
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 3: Oh, shit.

901
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 2: This is the story of what's been called the most

902
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,860
Speaker 2: British crime of all time, the 2001 Who Wants to

903
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,020
Speaker 2: Be a Millionaire scandal.

904
00:41:33,260 --> 00:41:34,060
Speaker 3: Wow.

905
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:34,299
Speaker 2: Yes.

906
00:41:34,540 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 3: I don't know this. You don't at all? Not off

907
00:41:36,340 --> 00:41:38,910
Speaker 3: the top of my head. Oh, yay. Like, there's a vague,

908
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,910
Speaker 3: you know, memory of something like this. Right. But I

909
00:41:41,930 --> 00:41:43,230
Speaker 3: couldn't tell you anything about it. Okay.

910
00:41:43,570 --> 00:41:44,610
Speaker 2: That's so exciting.

911
00:41:44,650 --> 00:41:44,730
Speaker 3: Yeah.

912
00:41:44,750 --> 00:41:46,330
Speaker 2: Because I kind of thought when I said Who Wants

913
00:41:46,350 --> 00:41:47,790
Speaker 2: to Be a Millionaire, you'd be like, yeah, yep.

914
00:41:47,890 --> 00:41:48,910
Speaker 3: No. Okay, great.

915
00:41:49,510 --> 00:41:53,569
Speaker 2: So there's a book written by authors Bob Woffenden and

916
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: James Plaskett, and it's called Bad Show.

917
00:41:56,219 --> 00:41:58,860
Speaker 3: They wrote a whole book about this? They wrote a book.

918
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 2: Apparently, in England, this is such a huge story. Everybody

919
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:04,580
Speaker 2: knows it. Like, everybody.

920
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 3: It's because it's, like, rude.

921
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,710
Speaker 2: First of all, rude. They love their trivia.

922
00:42:08,830 --> 00:42:09,509
Speaker 3: Yeah.

923
00:42:09,530 --> 00:42:09,630
Speaker 1: Right?

924
00:42:09,650 --> 00:42:12,230
Speaker 2: They're obsessed with that bar trivia and their trivia teams

925
00:42:12,270 --> 00:42:12,709
Speaker 2: and all that.

926
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:16,109
Speaker 3: Like, cheating on a trivia thing is, like, you know,

927
00:42:16,630 --> 00:42:17,610
Speaker 3: something bad. Right? Yeah.

928
00:42:18,910 --> 00:42:21,420
Speaker 2: Would 007 do it? Well, then I shouldn't do it.

929
00:42:21,950 --> 00:42:26,050
Speaker 2: There's also a documentary called Millionaire, colon, A Major Fraud.

930
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: So the rest of the sources are in our show notes.

931
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 2: So we are back. We are in the studios.

932
00:42:31,620 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 3: We are there.

933
00:42:32,180 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 2: He's just won his seat. He's kind of been dorky.

934
00:42:35,460 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 2: He begins to play the game now. So Charles does

935
00:42:39,180 --> 00:42:42,500
Speaker 2: fine on the first few questions. But at question number five,

936
00:42:43,180 --> 00:42:46,220
Speaker 2: which is worth a thousand pounds, he starts to look shaky.

937
00:42:46,739 --> 00:42:49,819
Speaker 2: He quickly burns through the ask the audience and the

938
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 2: phone a friend lifelines.

939
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:52,760
Speaker 3: How many questions are there again?

940
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 2: Fifteen.

941
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:55,830
Speaker 3: Okay. So that's pretty early to get through two of

942
00:42:55,870 --> 00:42:56,650
Speaker 3: your lifelines.

943
00:42:56,750 --> 00:42:59,549
Speaker 2: Way too early. Like you wouldn't normally do that. But

944
00:43:00,250 --> 00:43:01,770
Speaker 2: he just had no options.

945
00:43:02,290 --> 00:43:04,230
Speaker 3: I want to know the questions. Would I get them?

946
00:43:04,350 --> 00:43:04,989
Speaker 3: Probably not.

947
00:43:06,630 --> 00:43:09,460
Speaker 2: Well, they increase in difficulty. So in the beginning, like

948
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: it's kind of like New York Times crossword. It's like

949
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:12,259
Speaker 2: I can do this.

950
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:13,540
Speaker 3: Yay, Monday.

951
00:43:13,620 --> 00:43:16,100
Speaker 2: Hooray for Tuesday. By Friday, I'm nowhere to be found.

952
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:16,339
Speaker 3: Okay.

953
00:43:16,580 --> 00:43:17,439
Speaker 2: I think it's like that.

954
00:43:17,460 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 3: Okay.

955
00:43:18,260 --> 00:43:21,089
Speaker 2: So it is a very bad sign that that early he's,

956
00:43:21,489 --> 00:43:23,630
Speaker 2: because then once those are gone, they're gone.

957
00:43:23,670 --> 00:43:23,870
Speaker 1: Yeah.

958
00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:29,969
Speaker 2: So he's down to one remaining. So he, and he

959
00:43:30,010 --> 00:43:32,989
Speaker 2: slows to a crawl telling Chris Tarrant, quote, one of

960
00:43:33,070 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 2: my sub strategies is to take a long time. Right.

961
00:43:37,020 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 3: Thanks for great TV.

962
00:43:38,380 --> 00:43:42,150
Speaker 2: I mean, so from here on out, That's exactly what

963
00:43:42,230 --> 00:43:45,490
Speaker 2: he does. He just goes super slow. Question after question,

964
00:43:45,870 --> 00:43:49,730
Speaker 2: Charles slowly reads his multiple choice answers out loud and

965
00:43:49,790 --> 00:43:54,410
Speaker 2: mulls them over, adding commentary and, to be blunt, not

966
00:43:54,469 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: coming across as all that bright. That's Marin's editorial. I'm

967
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:03,660
Speaker 2: just reading Marin's work. But just basically that for a

968
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,219
Speaker 2: person who's in this game and needs to go all

969
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,259
Speaker 2: the way, it's like, uh-uh. But in the end, he

970
00:44:09,300 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 2: always chooses the right answer. Eventually, Charles arrives at question 10,

971
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:18,500
Speaker 2: so he gets pretty far. For 32,000 pounds, it's, quote,

972
00:44:18,940 --> 00:44:22,030
Speaker 2: who had a hit UK album with Born to Do

973
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:27,009
Speaker 2: It released in 2000? And then the options are Coldplay,

974
00:44:27,489 --> 00:44:30,140
Speaker 2: Top Loader, Craig David, or A1.

975
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:33,770
Speaker 3: I don't know the last three of those. I've never

976
00:44:33,810 --> 00:44:34,509
Speaker 3: heard the last three.

977
00:44:34,790 --> 00:44:35,830
Speaker 2: I've never heard of that song.

978
00:44:35,870 --> 00:44:38,830
Speaker 3: Top Loader? Someone named their band Top Loader?

979
00:44:38,850 --> 00:44:42,500
Speaker 2: I loved Top Loader so much in 1997. And then someone.

980
00:44:41,980 --> 00:44:44,540
Speaker 3: Named it after a steak sauce? Their band after a

981
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:44,860
Speaker 3: steak sauce?

982
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 2: There's A1 and it's just all sauce. Okay, so Charles

983
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 2: immediately reveals he has no idea and that basically he

984
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,690
Speaker 2: burns his final lifeline, which is the 50-50. So his

985
00:44:56,770 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 2: choices are now, A1 Steak Sauce and Craig David.

986
00:45:00,420 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 3: Okay.

987
00:45:01,060 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 2: Craig David is a musical performer.

988
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:03,340
Speaker 3: Okay.

989
00:45:04,260 --> 00:45:06,490
Speaker 2: I have not heard of him. Charles says that he

990
00:45:06,570 --> 00:45:09,450
Speaker 2: thinks it must be A1 because he's never heard of

991
00:45:09,489 --> 00:45:13,489
Speaker 2: Craig David. But then he says, quote, 80% of the

992
00:45:13,530 --> 00:45:15,709
Speaker 2: time I'm wrong when I guess. So you know what?

993
00:45:15,989 --> 00:45:17,090
Speaker 2: I'll go with Craig David.

994
00:45:17,130 --> 00:45:18,850
Speaker 3: Wow. He's just fucking winging it.

995
00:45:19,110 --> 00:45:23,610
Speaker 2: It's his final answer, and he is correct. This is

996
00:45:23,650 --> 00:45:25,690
Speaker 2: a very weird way to play millionaire.

997
00:45:25,710 --> 00:45:25,790
Speaker 1: Yeah.

998
00:45:26,130 --> 00:45:30,169
Speaker 2: Charles had banked $ 16, 000 at this point. If he missed

999
00:45:30,210 --> 00:45:32,650
Speaker 2: that question, he would have been eliminated and left the

1000
00:45:32,690 --> 00:45:36,070
Speaker 2: show with 1,000 pounds. If he admitted he didn't know it,

1001
00:45:36,110 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 2: he could have walked with 16,000.

1002
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,660
Speaker 3: Right. And then they're always like, go with your first answer.

1003
00:45:40,980 --> 00:45:42,700
Speaker 3: And that, yeah, he didn't.

1004
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 2: So most contestants probably would have taken the money. This

1005
00:45:46,780 --> 00:45:51,049
Speaker 2: reckless approach that Charles has to basically playing this and

1006
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,710
Speaker 2: gambling with it makes for great TV. Chris Tarrant will

1007
00:45:54,730 --> 00:45:58,910
Speaker 2: later say, Quote, he was extraordinary to be opposite. My

1008
00:45:58,969 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: read was that he was sort of a mad major,

1009
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 2: brave as a lion, but completely barmy. We should have

1010
00:46:05,020 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 2: got this translated.

1011
00:46:06,020 --> 00:46:06,739
Speaker 3: Sorry, what now?

1012
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,280
Speaker 2: In today's money? All of these words. Barmy in today's

1013
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:14,420
Speaker 2: money is $ 30, 000. But completely barmy, you know, probably a

1014
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:15,020
Speaker 2: bit thick.

1015
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:15,980
Speaker 3: Okay.

1016
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,340
Speaker 2: Dim but nice sort of thing. End quote.

1017
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 3: My God. Damn. Damn.

1018
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: The millionaire production crew does not know what to make

1019
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 2: of what's happening. And over the next few questions, as

1020
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 2: the stakes get higher, Charles continues to answer in this

1021
00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 2: meandering kind of cavalier way, never seeming to consider walking

1022
00:46:35,620 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 2: away with the increasingly large amount of money that he

1023
00:46:38,380 --> 00:46:42,549
Speaker 2: is accumulating. Instead, he's totally guessing his way through the

1024
00:46:42,610 --> 00:46:47,290
Speaker 2: highest dollar questions with no lifelines yet. So no one

1025
00:46:47,330 --> 00:46:47,989
Speaker 2: does it that way.

1026
00:46:48,010 --> 00:46:48,090
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1027
00:46:48,969 --> 00:46:52,810
Speaker 2: Somehow Charles stumbles his way to question 14. There are

1028
00:46:52,890 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 2: now just two correct answers separating him from the million-pound jackpot.

1029
00:46:59,420 --> 00:47:02,500
Speaker 2: He's asked, quote, Baron Hussman is best known for his

1030
00:47:02,580 --> 00:47:04,060
Speaker 2: planning of which city?

1031
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 3: Oh, I know this one. No. Do you? No.

1032
00:47:06,540 --> 00:47:09,580
Speaker 2: That would have been— suddenly you're just like, this is the

1033
00:47:09,660 --> 00:47:11,580
Speaker 2: one thing I kept from high school. Yes, you can.

1034
00:47:11,820 --> 00:47:12,580
Speaker 2: But you have four options.

1035
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 3: Okay, give me four options.

1036
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,240
Speaker 2: Rome, Paris, Berlin, or Athens?

1037
00:47:17,260 --> 00:47:18,540
Speaker 3: Berlin. Berlin.

1038
00:47:20,590 --> 00:47:23,950
Speaker 2: Charles immediately says Berlin because he thinks the name Hausmann

1039
00:47:24,030 --> 00:47:24,670
Speaker 2: sounds German.

1040
00:47:24,810 --> 00:47:25,469
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.

1041
00:47:25,489 --> 00:47:28,810
Speaker 2: Still, he goes through the other options, chats them all through,

1042
00:47:29,270 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 2: eliminates some from contention before zeroing in on Berlin as

1043
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 2: his final answer. But before he confirms it, because that's

1044
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,500
Speaker 2: what they always do at the end, he suddenly changes

1045
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,839
Speaker 2: his answer to Paris. Final answer, and he's right.

1046
00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:45,700
Speaker 3: Oh, I was so close to being right.

1047
00:47:45,980 --> 00:47:47,940
Speaker 2: You were really close. You came in second place.

1048
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:49,530
Speaker 3: If he had said Berlin, I would have been right.

1049
00:47:49,620 --> 00:47:49,970
Speaker 3: That's right.

1050
00:47:51,010 --> 00:47:54,890
Speaker 2: Charles has made it now to question 15, the million-pound question.

1051
00:47:55,469 --> 00:47:57,830
Speaker 2: The host reads the question. Are you ready?

1052
00:47:57,930 --> 00:47:58,089
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1053
00:47:58,350 --> 00:48:03,100
Speaker 2: Quote, a number one followed by 100 zeros is known

1054
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:09,380
Speaker 2: by what name? A Google, a Megatron, a Gigabit, or

1055
00:48:09,420 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 2: a Nanomole?

1056
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 3: Jesus. It's just me guessing, so let's not do it. Okay.

1057
00:48:15,140 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 2: Once again, Charles admits he's unsure. He thinks it's Megatron,

1058
00:48:19,380 --> 00:48:23,420
Speaker 2: maybe Nanomole. He's never heard of Google. Just a reminder.

1059
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:25,500
Speaker 3: Isn't that so funny? I know. It's going to be

1060
00:48:25,540 --> 00:48:26,989
Speaker 3: one of the biggest fucking things in the world in

1061
00:48:27,010 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 3: a minute.

1062
00:48:27,550 --> 00:48:27,770
Speaker 2: Right?

1063
00:48:27,850 --> 00:48:28,870
Speaker 3: I've never heard of Google.

1064
00:48:28,910 --> 00:48:31,170
Speaker 2: I've never heard of Google because it's the 90s, and

1065
00:48:31,210 --> 00:48:33,610
Speaker 2: I have no idea what the very near future is

1066
00:48:33,670 --> 00:48:38,029
Speaker 2: about to bring. Just a reminder, Charles can still walk

1067
00:48:38,090 --> 00:48:39,280
Speaker 2: away with the money he's earned.

1068
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:39,610
Speaker 3: Right.

1069
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,860
Speaker 2: It's half a million pounds up until this point. But then,

1070
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 2: in direct conflict with what he's just announced to everyone—

1071
00:48:48,020 --> 00:48:52,060
Speaker 2: Charles locks in on Google as his final answer. Who

1072
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:56,100
Speaker 2: Wants to Be a Millionaire showrunner Rod Taylor will later say, quote,

1073
00:48:56,660 --> 00:48:59,500
Speaker 2: it became obvious that he wasn't under the pressure that

1074
00:48:59,540 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 2: he should have been. It didn't make sense. He should

1075
00:49:02,620 --> 00:49:05,410
Speaker 2: have been very careful and very certain, and he wasn't.

1076
00:49:05,469 --> 00:49:08,510
Speaker 3: Yeah, the odds of just guessing all of those questions

1077
00:49:08,570 --> 00:49:10,630
Speaker 3: correctly is very high.

1078
00:49:12,540 --> 00:49:15,020
Speaker 2: The number's low. It's less than a Google.

1079
00:49:15,100 --> 00:49:16,530
Speaker 3: I don't know math, but it's low.

1080
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:17,650
Speaker 2: It's very low.

1081
00:49:17,670 --> 00:49:18,489
Speaker 3: It's less than a Google.

1082
00:49:18,550 --> 00:49:19,969
Speaker 2: I don't do odds. I'm not a statistic.

1083
00:49:20,940 --> 00:49:22,940
Speaker 3: It seems unlikely it's like more of a yahoo than

1084
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:23,500
Speaker 3: a well and the.

1085
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:28,009
Speaker 2: Other part is he's talking through how he doesn't know

1086
00:49:28,050 --> 00:49:30,350
Speaker 2: this and he doesn't know that and he's never heard

1087
00:49:30,370 --> 00:49:34,069
Speaker 2: of this yeah um But it turns out Charles' answer

1088
00:49:34,110 --> 00:49:36,970
Speaker 2: is correct. And with that, confetti drops from the ceiling

1089
00:49:37,380 --> 00:49:40,460
Speaker 2: and Charles Ingram has just become the third, only the

1090
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:43,180
Speaker 2: third winner of British Who Wants to Be a Millionaire.

1091
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 2: But the vibe in the studio is off.

1092
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,180
Speaker 3: Is it? Sorry. Is it live?

1093
00:49:48,910 --> 00:49:49,390
Speaker 2: Live to tape.

1094
00:49:49,410 --> 00:49:49,489
Speaker 3: Okay.

1095
00:49:50,130 --> 00:49:51,270
Speaker 2: It's live to the people in the room.

1096
00:49:51,290 --> 00:49:51,630
Speaker 3: Okay.

1097
00:49:51,850 --> 00:49:57,130
Speaker 2: Yeah. Charles' wife Diana, who has been watching– yes, Charles

1098
00:49:57,170 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 2: and Diana– who has been watching from the audience, looks

1099
00:50:01,340 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 2: shaken as she steps onto the floor to hug her husband.

1100
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 2: And around the studio, members of the millionaire crew are

1101
00:50:09,140 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 2: visibly seething, certain that Charles has just cheated right in

1102
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:13,940
Speaker 2: front of their eyes.

1103
00:50:14,500 --> 00:50:15,060
Speaker 3: They know.

1104
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 2: They just don't know how he did it. Whoa. Charles

1105
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 2: has even searched on set to make sure he doesn't

1106
00:50:21,140 --> 00:50:24,140
Speaker 2: have any devices on him. He doesn't. So he and

1107
00:50:24,180 --> 00:50:26,870
Speaker 2: Diana are sent backstage with a bottle of champagne where

1108
00:50:26,910 --> 00:50:31,420
Speaker 2: they disappear into a dressing room. Staffers will allege that

1109
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 2: they can hear the couple arguing from the hallway, claiming

1110
00:50:35,180 --> 00:50:39,190
Speaker 2: Diana in particular sounds pissed, but they can't make out

1111
00:50:39,350 --> 00:50:42,210
Speaker 2: what either person is saying. A member of the Millionaire

1112
00:50:42,250 --> 00:50:45,210
Speaker 2: production crew will later say, quote, these two people had

1113
00:50:45,330 --> 00:50:48,970
Speaker 2: just won a million pounds. They should have been ecstatically happy.

1114
00:50:49,350 --> 00:50:51,609
Speaker 2: They should have wanted to speak to their children. They

1115
00:50:51,630 --> 00:50:53,819
Speaker 2: should have wanted to speak to the dog. They should

1116
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 2: have wanted to do something other than be as miserable

1117
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:57,260
Speaker 2: as they seemed.

1118
00:50:57,300 --> 00:50:59,859
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're not fighting over after a million-dollar win. No.

1119
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,420
Speaker 2: On stage, the show goes on. The remaining contestants compete

1120
00:51:04,500 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 2: in yet another fastest finger. So that's actually part of it, too,

1121
00:51:07,620 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 2: is that if someone wins, that's over. Because someone could

1122
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 2: actually lose on, like, question four.

1123
00:51:12,260 --> 00:51:12,380
Speaker 1: Right.

1124
00:51:12,780 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 2: And they need more contestants. That's why they have all

1125
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:17,900
Speaker 2: the contestants and they play fastest finger.

1126
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:18,340
Speaker 3: Okay.

1127
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:19,300
Speaker 2: It's a great idea.

1128
00:51:19,420 --> 00:51:19,580
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1129
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 2: So they go on to yet another fastest finger first

1130
00:51:23,300 --> 00:51:26,299
Speaker 2: round to determine who will play the next game. And

1131
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 2: the winner of that round is 51-year-old college lecturer Tequin Wittek.

1132
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,490
Speaker 2: But he only makes it to the 8,000-pound question before

1133
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,990
Speaker 2: he is eliminated. As the taping wraps up on stage,

1134
00:51:39,190 --> 00:51:43,730
Speaker 2: behind the scenes, Millionaire's production team is mobilizing to investigate Charles.

1135
00:51:44,110 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 3: I love that nobody's like, Happy for him.

1136
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1137
00:51:47,820 --> 00:51:49,460
Speaker 3: Good for you. It's just so impossible.

1138
00:51:49,540 --> 00:51:52,950
Speaker 2: But like picture it where it's like, what's the largest

1139
00:51:53,050 --> 00:51:56,590
Speaker 2: lake in America? And someone's like, well, it could be.

1140
00:51:56,770 --> 00:51:57,990
Speaker 2: That's what he did wrong.

1141
00:51:58,070 --> 00:52:00,930
Speaker 3: Instead of being like, I know I'm only whatever, but

1142
00:52:01,130 --> 00:52:03,470
Speaker 3: I'm super smart. Yeah. I know the answers.

1143
00:52:04,370 --> 00:52:05,390
Speaker 2: He faked it wrong.

1144
00:52:05,469 --> 00:52:05,779
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1145
00:52:05,910 --> 00:52:09,259
Speaker 2: It's the same reason why the ads on TikTok, no

1146
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 2: one will ever believe those are real people talking to

1147
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: each other.

1148
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1149
00:52:12,420 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 2: Because it's just like we've all seen real people talk

1150
00:52:15,140 --> 00:52:17,569
Speaker 2: to each other. This is not real people talking to

1151
00:52:17,590 --> 00:52:20,470
Speaker 2: each other. We know it doesn't pass the sniff test.

1152
00:52:20,810 --> 00:52:25,109
Speaker 2: So a few days later, on September 14th, the executives

1153
00:52:25,510 --> 00:52:28,150
Speaker 2: at Who Wants to Be a Millionaire call Scotland Yard.

1154
00:52:28,870 --> 00:52:32,950
Speaker 2: And they share their suspicion that Charles Ingram somehow cheated.

1155
00:52:33,610 --> 00:52:35,940
Speaker 2: They're refusing to pay out his prize money until the

1156
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 2: police look into the matter. So they escalate the whole thing. Whoa.

1157
00:52:39,300 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 3: Is that an illegal thing to cheat on a game show?

1158
00:52:41,860 --> 00:52:42,100
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1159
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:43,540
Speaker 3: Okay. Fraud? Yeah.

1160
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:44,800
Speaker 2: It's just bad vibes.

1161
00:52:44,820 --> 00:52:44,900
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1162
00:52:45,940 --> 00:52:48,860
Speaker 2: And they've already shelved his episode, which was supposed to

1163
00:52:49,020 --> 00:52:53,259
Speaker 2: air the following week. That's not good. An official investigation

1164
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,469
Speaker 2: kicks off, and Charles gives a statement to the Guardian saying, quote,

1165
00:52:56,910 --> 00:52:59,450
Speaker 2: I have no idea why they're investigating me. I don't

1166
00:52:59,550 --> 00:53:02,969
Speaker 2: know what there is to investigate, end quote. So he's

1167
00:53:03,290 --> 00:53:04,210
Speaker 2: claiming complete innocence.

1168
00:53:04,250 --> 00:53:06,109
Speaker 3: You want to phone a friend to find out, dude?

1169
00:53:06,390 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 2: Phone a friend with a better alibi than that? The

1170
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,630
Speaker 2: millionaire crew is already working out its own theory. So

1171
00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:17,259
Speaker 2: they start looking through the footage from Charles' episode. And

1172
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 2: when they get to the 32,000-pound question about the album

1173
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 2: Born to Do It, where Charles claims not to know

1174
00:53:24,340 --> 00:53:26,500
Speaker 2: who Craig David is but then picks him as the

1175
00:53:26,540 --> 00:53:30,859
Speaker 2: final answer, Charles' wife Diana is being filmed for her

1176
00:53:30,940 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 2: reactions to her husband's game. So she's in the audience. And,

1177
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,830
Speaker 2: of course, the cameraman is on her the entire time

1178
00:53:38,870 --> 00:53:41,310
Speaker 2: because whether her husband wins or loses, they need that shot.

1179
00:53:41,330 --> 00:53:41,450
Speaker 1: Sure.

1180
00:53:42,420 --> 00:53:46,780
Speaker 2: Here's an interesting side note. Diana comes from a trivia-obsessed family.

1181
00:53:47,300 --> 00:53:50,650
Speaker 2: Her brother Adrian is on the British game show circuit.

1182
00:53:51,410 --> 00:53:52,610
Speaker 3: Oh. That's a thing. Okay.

1183
00:53:53,390 --> 00:53:54,630
Speaker 2: You could do it, too, if you wanted.

1184
00:53:54,650 --> 00:53:56,710
Speaker 3: Yeah, right. Let's get over there.

1185
00:53:57,350 --> 00:54:00,870
Speaker 2: Having made it onto several game shows himself, including Who

1186
00:54:00,910 --> 00:54:01,930
Speaker 2: Wants to Be a Millionaire.

1187
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,100
Speaker 3: Okay. So he's played it already. Okay.

1188
00:54:04,660 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 2: And when he played it, he won 32,000 pounds. He

1189
00:54:07,410 --> 00:54:11,509
Speaker 2: got to that question. Also, Diana has already been in

1190
00:54:11,550 --> 00:54:14,910
Speaker 2: the hot seat herself. She has made it through the

1191
00:54:14,930 --> 00:54:16,670
Speaker 2: fastest finger and made it into the seat.

1192
00:54:16,690 --> 00:54:17,930
Speaker 3: Okay, that seems hard. Right?

1193
00:54:18,290 --> 00:54:21,250
Speaker 2: Like her brother, she won 32,000 pounds just a few

1194
00:54:21,290 --> 00:54:25,490
Speaker 2: months before Charles made his appearance. And in the interim

1195
00:54:25,530 --> 00:54:29,529
Speaker 2: between Diana and Charles' appearances, they together were selected as

1196
00:54:29,590 --> 00:54:32,739
Speaker 2: potential contestants for a couple's edition of Who Wants to

1197
00:54:32,780 --> 00:54:35,410
Speaker 2: Be a Millionaire?, but they never got into the hot seat.

1198
00:54:36,050 --> 00:54:38,730
Speaker 2: So the millionaire crew goes back and watches the footage

1199
00:54:39,010 --> 00:54:42,390
Speaker 2: from the audience cameras. And because they're focused on Diana

1200
00:54:42,730 --> 00:54:46,860
Speaker 2: for her reaction, they notice that she suddenly develops a

1201
00:54:46,940 --> 00:54:50,980
Speaker 2: cough just as Charles runs through the multiple choice answers.

1202
00:54:51,580 --> 00:54:54,859
Speaker 3: I wish it were something brilliant. Can we?

1203
00:54:55,340 --> 00:54:55,540
Speaker 1: No.

1204
00:54:55,660 --> 00:54:57,950
Speaker 3: Can you lie to me? No, I can't. Tell me

1205
00:54:58,010 --> 00:54:59,209
Speaker 3: it was like telepathy.

1206
00:54:59,350 --> 00:54:59,629
Speaker 2: I won't.

1207
00:55:00,450 --> 00:55:00,810
Speaker 3: Never. Never.

1208
00:55:02,090 --> 00:55:04,689
Speaker 2: Her coughs seem to come whenever Charles reads the name.

1209
00:55:04,730 --> 00:55:05,930
Speaker 3: What the fuck? Craig David.

1210
00:55:07,390 --> 00:55:08,430
Speaker 2: It's such a good system.

1211
00:55:08,450 --> 00:55:08,529
Speaker 3: Okay.

1212
00:55:08,650 --> 00:55:09,569
Speaker 2: You have to admit it.

1213
00:55:09,870 --> 00:55:10,109
Speaker 3: Okay.

1214
00:55:10,390 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 2: And she's not alone. There's another cougher, and it's Tecwin Wittek,

1215
00:55:15,180 --> 00:55:17,839
Speaker 2: the other guy who, the guy who won the game

1216
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 2: after him.

1217
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 1: Oh.

1218
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,820
Speaker 2: Tecwin also coughs right as Charles reads the correct answer

1219
00:55:22,980 --> 00:55:24,620
Speaker 2: to various questions out loud.

1220
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:26,180
Speaker 1: Oh.

1221
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 2: So some coughing, of course, is expected during a studio

1222
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:32,910
Speaker 2: taping like this, but a man But a millionaire crew

1223
00:55:32,950 --> 00:55:36,210
Speaker 2: member will later describe seeing Tequan cough in real time.

1224
00:55:36,690 --> 00:55:39,610
Speaker 2: And he'll later say, quote, he was only about 10

1225
00:55:39,610 --> 00:55:42,410
Speaker 2: or 15 feet directly in front of me. And the

1226
00:55:42,450 --> 00:55:45,380
Speaker 2: way he was coughing was rather bizarre. He was actually

1227
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,320
Speaker 2: turning toward the set to cough.

1228
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:50,739
Speaker 3: I want to try it. Can we try it? Yeah.

1229
00:55:52,260 --> 00:55:55,839
Speaker 3: Like that? You go. Yeah.

1230
00:55:56,060 --> 00:55:56,840
Speaker 2: Like it's that.

1231
00:55:57,420 --> 00:55:57,940
Speaker 3: Yes. Okay.

1232
00:55:57,960 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: Okay.

1233
00:55:58,930 --> 00:56:01,660
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's— Because you have to have— this guy has to

1234
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:01,970
Speaker 2: hear it.

1235
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:04,340
Speaker 3: Like, at some point, the guy next to you that

1236
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 3: doesn't know you is going to get annoyed with you.

1237
00:56:06,260 --> 00:56:08,620
Speaker 3: It's going to be like, can you get this fucking

1238
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:09,620
Speaker 3: coffer out of here?

1239
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 2: Assistant director, can I speak to you for a second?

1240
00:56:12,100 --> 00:56:19,500
Speaker 2: But this is pre-COVID. Sorry, mid-quote. At one point— turning toward

1241
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:21,890
Speaker 2: the set to cough. At one point, he was chatting

1242
00:56:21,930 --> 00:56:24,689
Speaker 2: to the contestant to his left in a whispered way.

1243
00:56:25,230 --> 00:56:28,330
Speaker 2: And then he'd turn around a full 90 degrees and

1244
00:56:28,410 --> 00:56:33,110
Speaker 2: cough toward the hot seat, end quote. The entire Millionaire

1245
00:56:33,150 --> 00:56:36,420
Speaker 2: set audience is heavily mic'd, so the crew can isolate

1246
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 2: and enhance audio captured near Tequin. At one point, they

1247
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 2: hear him chatting with the contestant sitting next to him.

1248
00:56:43,860 --> 00:56:47,460
Speaker 2: The whole thing is on cameras and mics, obviously. About

1249
00:56:47,500 --> 00:56:50,240
Speaker 2: the question Charles is trying to answer, which is, quote,

1250
00:56:50,660 --> 00:56:54,060
Speaker 2: what type of garment is an Anthony Eden? Is it

1251
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:57,420
Speaker 2: an overcoat, a hat, shoes, or a tie?

1252
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:58,820
Speaker 3: A tie.

1253
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 2: Hold on.

1254
00:57:00,180 --> 00:57:00,299
Speaker 3: Okay.

1255
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 2: This is Charles' 13th question. He's playing for 250,000 pounds.

1256
00:57:04,550 --> 00:57:08,029
Speaker 2: And like he has before, he reads through the four

1257
00:57:08,090 --> 00:57:10,030
Speaker 2: possible answers as he does.

1258
00:57:10,050 --> 00:57:10,550
Speaker 3: Slowly.

1259
00:57:10,750 --> 00:57:14,530
Speaker 2: Right? That's what that's all about. Tequin coughs three times.

1260
00:57:14,930 --> 00:57:18,220
Speaker 2: Each one comes right after Charles says the correct answer,

1261
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:19,660
Speaker 2: which is, what did you guess?

1262
00:57:19,740 --> 00:57:20,140
Speaker 3: A tie.

1263
00:57:20,420 --> 00:57:20,740
Speaker 1: Hat.

1264
00:57:20,860 --> 00:57:23,689
Speaker 3: Okay. Okay. I think you only needed to cough one time.

1265
00:57:23,970 --> 00:57:24,729
Speaker 2: For real? Bro.

1266
00:57:24,990 --> 00:57:26,710
Speaker 3: Like, sorry to teach you how to cheat, but, like,

1267
00:57:26,910 --> 00:57:28,390
Speaker 3: you didn't need to do it every single time.

1268
00:57:28,610 --> 00:57:32,290
Speaker 2: You're in a silent studio audience that's required to be

1269
00:57:32,350 --> 00:57:35,310
Speaker 2: silent for the taping of the people talking on the stage.

1270
00:57:35,330 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 3: You only need one confirmation. Right?

1271
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:39,939
Speaker 2: Insanity.

1272
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay.

1273
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,740
Speaker 2: And this is just one instance of this happening, of many.

1274
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:47,980
Speaker 2: As one crew member will say, it's not that hard

1275
00:57:48,020 --> 00:57:51,130
Speaker 2: to explain a cough here and there, but, quote, When

1276
00:57:51,150 --> 00:57:55,890
Speaker 2: you're talking about 17, 18 persistent calls at specific points

1277
00:57:55,950 --> 00:57:59,070
Speaker 2: that appear to be leading somebody, you back yourself into

1278
00:57:59,110 --> 00:57:59,790
Speaker 2: a corner.

1279
00:57:59,830 --> 00:58:03,580
Speaker 3: Can I tell you about cheating one time? Yes. In

1280
00:58:03,620 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 3: high school. It was English. So, of course, I had

1281
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 3: read the book because I fucking love reading. It's like

1282
00:58:07,980 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 3: the only class I did okay. And a bunch of

1283
00:58:09,940 --> 00:58:12,540
Speaker 3: my friends hadn't. There was a quit pop quiz and

1284
00:58:12,940 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 3: it was yes, no answers. So I put my I'd

1285
00:58:15,860 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 3: put my feet down on the ground if it was

1286
00:58:17,660 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 3: yes and put my feet up if it was no.

1287
00:58:21,140 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 2: That's genius.

1288
00:58:22,660 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 3: And she didn't notice. It was like my favorite teacher,

1289
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 3: so I'm not even going to say it, but like

1290
00:58:27,090 --> 00:58:27,550
Speaker 3: I feel terrible.

1291
00:58:27,570 --> 00:58:29,669
Speaker 2: And everyone passed or everyone like did good?

1292
00:58:29,890 --> 00:58:31,250
Speaker 3: Just thinking of like three of my friends.

1293
00:58:31,270 --> 00:58:32,210
Speaker 2: That's really good.

1294
00:58:32,290 --> 00:58:36,130
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I was so subtle about it. Just like, oh,

1295
00:58:36,430 --> 00:58:37,570
Speaker 3: I want to put– You're just trying to adjust. I

1296
00:58:37,590 --> 00:58:40,490
Speaker 3: just have ADHD. I can't sit still. You know how

1297
00:58:40,570 --> 00:58:40,810
Speaker 3: I am.

1298
00:58:40,830 --> 00:58:41,030
Speaker 1: Yes.

1299
00:58:41,090 --> 00:58:43,030
Speaker 2: My feet and my seating.

1300
00:58:43,090 --> 00:58:44,890
Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay.

1301
00:58:45,250 --> 00:58:49,280
Speaker 2: So– The example that's often cited as the most suspicious,

1302
00:58:49,580 --> 00:58:53,340
Speaker 2: if not egregious, happens during the question about Baron Hessmann

1303
00:58:53,610 --> 00:58:57,770
Speaker 2: for 500,000 pounds. And this is when Charles nearly answers

1304
00:58:57,810 --> 00:59:01,570
Speaker 2: Berlin before he goes back and picks Paris, which he

1305
00:59:01,590 --> 00:59:03,810
Speaker 2: had just verbally written off to everybody.

1306
00:59:03,830 --> 00:59:06,230
Speaker 3: Right, because he goes like, I'm going to pick Berlin.

1307
00:59:06,250 --> 00:59:09,010
Speaker 2: That sounds like Berlin to Paris.

1308
00:59:09,030 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 3: But I wonder if it's... Yeah. Fuck, dude.

1309
00:59:11,860 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 2: When the production crew isolates and enhances the audio from

1310
00:59:14,940 --> 00:59:18,620
Speaker 2: the now classic moment, they think they hear Tecwen cough

1311
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 2: and then follow it up with the word no.

1312
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 3: So he's... No! Bro! It's a silent audience. Yes. Uh.

1313
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I wonder if there's like, if there's sound

1314
00:59:31,780 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 2: effects or it's like something they're trying to beat.

1315
00:59:34,980 --> 00:59:35,500
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1316
00:59:35,660 --> 00:59:39,770
Speaker 2: Maybe it wasn't perfectly silent, but still. Sure enough, instead

1317
00:59:39,790 --> 00:59:44,130
Speaker 2: of saying Berlin, he then basically rereads the options and

1318
00:59:44,190 --> 00:59:45,130
Speaker 2: goes with Paris.

1319
00:59:45,470 --> 00:59:46,370
Speaker 3: Sneeze would have been better.

1320
00:59:46,890 --> 00:59:50,420
Speaker 2: This time, Tecwin coughs and blows his nose when Paris

1321
00:59:50,500 --> 00:59:53,780
Speaker 2: is read aloud. So, let's just go for, oh, weird.

1322
00:59:54,020 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 3: Weird. Yeah.

1323
00:59:55,900 --> 00:59:58,300
Speaker 2: Something to do with snot. I'm trying to fix this.

1324
00:59:58,360 --> 00:59:59,380
Speaker 2: I'm trying to make it seem.

1325
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, no. Oh, my God.

1326
01:00:00,940 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 2: So that's when Charles picks it as his final answer.

1327
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:07,180
Speaker 2: So now it is November, a couple months after Charles's

1328
01:00:07,460 --> 01:00:12,530
Speaker 2: taped appearance on Millionaire. Scotland Yard's investigation concludes with the

1329
01:00:12,590 --> 01:00:17,370
Speaker 2: arrests of Charles Ingram, Diana and Tequin. They're accused of

1330
01:00:17,430 --> 01:00:21,430
Speaker 2: conspiring to defraud the show of the million pound prize.

1331
01:00:21,710 --> 01:00:23,300
Speaker 2: So I bet that's what it was. It's like, oh,

1332
01:00:23,310 --> 01:00:25,310
Speaker 2: if it was just a Yeah. It wasn't that big

1333
01:00:25,330 --> 01:00:27,340
Speaker 2: of a deal. It's fraud. But it's so much money.

1334
01:00:27,420 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1335
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,740
Speaker 2: Though each defendant adamantly denies the charges against them, they

1336
01:00:31,940 --> 01:00:33,020
Speaker 2: all plead not guilty.

1337
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 3: Huh.

1338
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:38,970
Speaker 2: Guilty. The prosecution makes a strong case in court as

1339
01:00:39,030 --> 01:00:42,670
Speaker 2: they have the material evidence, the coughing audio. The Guardian

1340
01:00:42,750 --> 01:00:45,710
Speaker 2: reports that the first time the recording of Tequin's cough

1341
01:00:45,930 --> 01:00:50,510
Speaker 2: no moment is played aloud, quote, Every journalist and member

1342
01:00:50,530 --> 01:00:52,070
Speaker 2: of the public burst out laughing.

1343
01:00:52,090 --> 01:00:53,430
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, you're going to plea. You're going to go

1344
01:00:53,450 --> 01:00:53,870
Speaker 3: ahead and plea.

1345
01:00:53,910 --> 01:00:54,790
Speaker 2: You've got to.

1346
01:00:55,730 --> 01:00:56,930
Speaker 3: You want to be humiliated?

1347
01:00:56,950 --> 01:00:59,490
Speaker 2: And also, here's the thing, and people always do this.

1348
01:00:59,570 --> 01:01:00,450
Speaker 2: They double down.

1349
01:01:00,510 --> 01:01:00,890
Speaker 3: Totally.

1350
01:01:01,090 --> 01:01:04,190
Speaker 2: You get caught, you double down. Take the hit, you're

1351
01:01:04,210 --> 01:01:05,230
Speaker 2: going to end up taking it anyway.

1352
01:01:05,270 --> 01:01:07,270
Speaker 3: And the guy who's going against you is like, okay.

1353
01:01:07,430 --> 01:01:10,290
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you want to, here we go. Let's roll

1354
01:01:10,330 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 2: the tape.

1355
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:13,060
Speaker 3: Say the wife did it. Let's see what happens. Ooh.

1356
01:01:15,770 --> 01:01:19,330
Speaker 2: They present footage that appears to show Diana repeatedly looking

1357
01:01:19,430 --> 01:01:22,170
Speaker 2: over to the area where Taekwon is seated while Charles

1358
01:01:22,250 --> 01:01:25,750
Speaker 2: is playing as if for reassurance. So she's like, should

1359
01:01:25,770 --> 01:01:26,710
Speaker 2: we be doing this?

1360
01:01:27,530 --> 01:01:29,910
Speaker 3: Should we be doing this?

1361
01:01:30,130 --> 01:01:33,610
Speaker 2: All on film. They also bring in other contestants who

1362
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:37,220
Speaker 2: claim that they too had noticed Taekwon's suspiciously timed coughs.

1363
01:01:37,820 --> 01:01:40,660
Speaker 2: And then they share Diana's phone records. She'd been in

1364
01:01:40,780 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 2: contact with Taekwon a handful of times in the weeks

1365
01:01:43,860 --> 01:01:46,990
Speaker 2: leading up to the show. including a five-minute phone call

1366
01:01:47,410 --> 01:01:51,330
Speaker 2: made on the day Charles' episode was recorded. Police put

1367
01:01:51,390 --> 01:01:54,990
Speaker 2: forward the theory that the trio's motive is money because.

1368
01:01:54,750 --> 01:01:57,290
Speaker 3: They— I mean— Sherlock, literally Sherlock.

1369
01:01:57,310 --> 01:02:01,570
Speaker 2: It wasn't—and it wasn't trivia. We did it to learn.

1370
01:02:03,030 --> 01:02:06,190
Speaker 2: It's money because both the Ingrams and Taquin are in

1371
01:02:06,390 --> 01:02:07,590
Speaker 2: significant debt.

1372
01:02:07,790 --> 01:02:08,090
Speaker 3: Sure.

1373
01:02:08,490 --> 01:02:12,340
Speaker 2: Who is it? They also suggest that the argument between

1374
01:02:12,660 --> 01:02:16,919
Speaker 2: Charles and Diana— backstage after the taping may have been

1375
01:02:16,980 --> 01:02:20,330
Speaker 2: about Charles and Tequin going rogue and advancing further in

1376
01:02:20,350 --> 01:02:22,110
Speaker 2: the game than was planned.

1377
01:02:22,130 --> 01:02:22,610
Speaker 3: Totally.

1378
01:02:22,730 --> 01:02:24,570
Speaker 2: Which risked exposing the entire scheme.

1379
01:02:24,590 --> 01:02:27,290
Speaker 3: Yeah, she knew that, like, you only win a little bit. Yes.

1380
01:02:27,310 --> 01:02:28,330
Speaker 3: And people don't question it.

1381
01:02:28,410 --> 01:02:29,230
Speaker 2: Don't get greedy.

1382
01:02:29,410 --> 01:02:30,140
Speaker 3: Don't get greedy.

1383
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:30,970
Speaker 2: And don't be crazy.

1384
01:02:30,990 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 3: No, they fucked around and found out.

1385
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:37,140
Speaker 2: That's right. British style, which was politely. But the defense

1386
01:02:37,180 --> 01:02:40,100
Speaker 2: hits back. Charles denies arguing with his wife after the

1387
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 2: show and maintains that he picked the correct answers fair

1388
01:02:42,860 --> 01:02:46,460
Speaker 2: and square. He claims that talking through each possible answer

1389
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:49,900
Speaker 2: was genuine strategy. He and his lawyers try to establish

1390
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:52,660
Speaker 2: that Charles is smart enough to have correctly answered all

1391
01:02:52,700 --> 01:02:58,510
Speaker 2: the questions without help, though it's unclear if they are successful. Yeah.

1392
01:02:59,770 --> 01:03:03,650
Speaker 2: The Guardian adds in its court reporting, quote, nobody notices

1393
01:03:03,710 --> 01:03:07,170
Speaker 2: that Charles is wearing a Mensa badge. He put it

1394
01:03:07,390 --> 01:03:09,910
Speaker 2: on as a special touch, but it is so tiny.

1395
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 2: Just a little M on his lapel that the jury

1396
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:14,060
Speaker 2: can't spot it.

1397
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:16,020
Speaker 3: Oh, my God.

1398
01:03:16,820 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 2: What eagle-eyed Guardian reporter got in there and was like,

1399
01:03:20,460 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 2: you know what he's trying to do?

1400
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:23,040
Speaker 3: Totally. I'm the only one who noticed.

1401
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 2: And also just, he's like, I'm real smart.

1402
01:03:27,220 --> 01:03:27,940
Speaker 3: I got a pin.

1403
01:03:27,980 --> 01:03:29,460
Speaker 2: I found this M on the street.

1404
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 3: They gave me a badge. They called them badges. They

1405
01:03:31,100 --> 01:03:31,900
Speaker 3: gave me a badge.

1406
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:32,480
Speaker 2: Good one.

1407
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 3: And now I'm.

1408
01:03:33,820 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 2: And my badge makes me spot.

1409
01:03:35,260 --> 01:03:35,860
Speaker 3: This is my proof. Yeah.

1410
01:03:36,820 --> 01:03:39,140
Speaker 2: And so, Craig David, I am your number one fan.

1411
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 2: Tequin testifies that he suffers from allergies and legitimately has

1412
01:03:43,460 --> 01:03:44,300
Speaker 2: a coughing issue.

1413
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:45,020
Speaker 3: Oh, my God.

1414
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:48,540
Speaker 2: Usually, it's less coughing and more sneezing, but okay. When

1415
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:51,140
Speaker 2: it's pointed out that his cough seemed to vanish when

1416
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,050
Speaker 2: he took the hot seat himself, he claims that he'd

1417
01:03:54,090 --> 01:03:56,690
Speaker 2: had some water just before and cleared his throat.

1418
01:03:56,710 --> 01:03:59,330
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, water cures everything.

1419
01:03:59,350 --> 01:04:00,210
Speaker 2: It cures allergies.

1420
01:04:00,450 --> 01:04:00,610
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1421
01:04:01,370 --> 01:04:04,550
Speaker 2: Tequin and Diana also explain that they did know each

1422
01:04:04,590 --> 01:04:06,630
Speaker 2: other at the time of the taping, though not well.

1423
01:04:07,150 --> 01:04:10,100
Speaker 2: Months prior... Tequin had reached out to Diana through her

1424
01:04:10,140 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 2: brother Adrian, asking for tips on how to get onto

1425
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:17,400
Speaker 2: the show. Diana and Adrian both have been on Millionaire

1426
01:04:17,420 --> 01:04:21,460
Speaker 2: at this point, and they both are becoming self-styled experts.

1427
01:04:21,740 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 2: In fact, they're writing a how-to book called When a

1428
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:29,060
Speaker 2: Million Went Junk. So they're basically trying to teach people

1429
01:04:29,100 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 2: how to get on this show. Imagine writing a book of, like,

1430
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 2: how to get on Jeopardy.

1431
01:04:33,060 --> 01:04:34,660
Speaker 3: It sounds like a pamphlet at best.

1432
01:04:34,860 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just like you read some books.

1433
01:04:37,980 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 3: Booklet. That's it. Like a large font, maybe a booklet.

1434
01:04:43,260 --> 01:04:45,670
Speaker 2: If you're in Las Vegas, take the pamphlets being handed

1435
01:04:45,690 --> 01:04:48,650
Speaker 2: to you and read them. Oh, so they were in

1436
01:04:48,670 --> 01:04:52,150
Speaker 2: the process of writing this how-to book when Charles makes

1437
01:04:52,190 --> 01:04:53,050
Speaker 2: it into the hot seat.

1438
01:04:53,070 --> 01:04:53,210
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

1439
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 2: The publication of that book is axed.

1440
01:04:56,420 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 3: No.

1441
01:04:57,460 --> 01:05:00,380
Speaker 2: They lose the book deal. So it turns out there

1442
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:04,380
Speaker 2: is not much hard evidence proving that Charles Ingram knew Tequin.

1443
01:05:04,820 --> 01:05:07,020
Speaker 2: The defense also points out that it would have been

1444
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 2: difficult for him to differentiate Diana or Tequin's individual coughs

1445
01:05:10,940 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 2: during the taping as opposed to any other random cough

1446
01:05:14,390 --> 01:05:15,070
Speaker 2: that was heard.

1447
01:05:15,090 --> 01:05:15,260
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1448
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:17,620
Speaker 2: A sound expert will testify.

1449
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:18,700
Speaker 3: Sound expert?

1450
01:05:18,940 --> 01:05:19,820
Speaker 2: A sound expert.

1451
01:05:19,900 --> 01:05:20,840
Speaker 3: I'm a sound expert.

1452
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:21,480
Speaker 2: Yes, you are.

1453
01:05:21,500 --> 01:05:22,880
Speaker 3: Can everyone be a sound? Anyone?

1454
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:26,540
Speaker 2: Everyone in that control room is a sound expert. We

1455
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:28,620
Speaker 2: got a lot of them around here. There is one,

1456
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:33,470
Speaker 2: and they testify there was a total of around 192

1457
01:05:33,470 --> 01:05:39,870
Speaker 2: coughs during the taping of Charles' episode. Although a notable amount,

1458
01:05:39,870 --> 01:05:42,330
Speaker 2: 19 coughs were attributed to Tequin alone.

1459
01:05:42,350 --> 01:05:45,610
Speaker 3: Okay. Okay. Is that a lot? Like, I don't know.

1460
01:05:45,630 --> 01:05:47,530
Speaker 2: I don't know what.

1461
01:05:47,450 --> 01:05:49,790
Speaker 3: The number is supposed to be. It seems like a lot.

1462
01:05:50,330 --> 01:05:53,150
Speaker 2: Well, they're basically saying, I think it's very common because

1463
01:05:53,350 --> 01:05:55,550
Speaker 2: in that situation, you know, you're not supposed to cough.

1464
01:05:55,590 --> 01:05:55,770
Speaker 1: Right.

1465
01:05:55,830 --> 01:05:57,300
Speaker 2: And then that's when you really have to cough.

1466
01:05:57,340 --> 01:05:57,530
Speaker 1: Right.

1467
01:05:57,640 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 2: So it's probably kind of common and they're used to

1468
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 2: editing them out. But usually everybody gets one or two.

1469
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:03,620
Speaker 3: Sure.

1470
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:08,580
Speaker 2: Not 19. Like cough 19 times. That's how you realize

1471
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:10,420
Speaker 2: how obvious and insane it is.

1472
01:06:10,460 --> 01:06:10,660
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1473
01:06:11,420 --> 01:06:14,520
Speaker 2: In another fun trial moment. A coughing expert is put

1474
01:06:14,580 --> 01:06:15,420
Speaker 2: on the stand.

1475
01:06:16,140 --> 01:06:16,500
Speaker 1: What? Oh, my God.

1476
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 3: What if the sound expert and the coughing expert started dating?

1477
01:06:18,860 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 2: Oh, my God.

1478
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 3: And they have a baby and it's a baby expert.

1479
01:06:22,460 --> 01:06:27,490
Speaker 2: And the baby is an expert about himself. But when

1480
01:06:27,550 --> 01:06:30,230
Speaker 2: the coughing expert gets put on the stand, court has

1481
01:06:30,270 --> 01:06:33,330
Speaker 2: to be put on hold because two jurors go into

1482
01:06:33,390 --> 01:06:34,510
Speaker 2: coughing fits.

1483
01:06:34,550 --> 01:06:34,630
Speaker 3: No.

1484
01:06:34,650 --> 01:06:36,210
Speaker 2: Because it's also suggestible.

1485
01:06:36,230 --> 01:06:37,010
Speaker 3: Yes, totally, totally.

1486
01:06:37,050 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 2: It's the yawning thing. I just took the yawning thing,

1487
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:41,180
Speaker 2: applied it to coughing.

1488
01:06:41,180 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 3: 100%.

1489
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1490
01:06:42,500 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 3: Now I feel like I need a cough.

1491
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:44,760
Speaker 2: Do it.

1492
01:06:45,660 --> 01:06:45,930
Speaker 3: Do it.

1493
01:06:46,060 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 2: Cheat me into the end of this story. In the end, though,

1494
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 2: the jury finds Charles and Diana Ingram and Tequin Wittek guilty.

1495
01:06:55,570 --> 01:06:59,510
Speaker 2: Charles and Diana each receive an 18-month suspended sentence and

1496
01:06:59,530 --> 01:07:01,390
Speaker 2: are fined a collective 25,000 pounds.

1497
01:07:01,410 --> 01:07:01,670
Speaker 3: Okay.

1498
01:07:01,730 --> 01:07:05,150
Speaker 2: So they don't get the money. They don't get their winnings.

1499
01:07:05,610 --> 01:07:07,710
Speaker 3: Oh, they never got the money. Oh.

1500
01:07:07,730 --> 01:07:08,150
Speaker 1: Mm-mm.

1501
01:07:08,310 --> 01:07:08,410
Speaker 3: Mm-mm.

1502
01:07:08,970 --> 01:07:13,360
Speaker 2: Tequin, meanwhile, gets a 12-month suspended sentence and his fines

1503
01:07:13,530 --> 01:07:18,060
Speaker 2: and fees total £ 17, 500. The Who Wants to Be a

1504
01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:21,120
Speaker 2: Millionaire scandal breaks at a time when British tabloids are

1505
01:07:21,180 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 2: particularly ruthless, right? Late 90s.

1506
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:25,620
Speaker 3: So mean.

1507
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:25,940
Speaker 2: So bad.

1508
01:07:26,060 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 3: And so naked, like just tits everywhere.

1509
01:07:28,700 --> 01:07:34,060
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. The media attention in this scandal is overwhelming.

1510
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:37,900
Speaker 2: The public do not treat the Ingrams kindly. They're disgraced.

1511
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:43,060
Speaker 2: They're financially ruined. Charles loses both his military status and

1512
01:07:43,140 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 2: his pension.

1513
01:07:44,220 --> 01:07:44,919
Speaker 3: Wow.

1514
01:07:44,980 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 2: Loses everything.

1515
01:07:46,060 --> 01:07:46,300
Speaker 3: Wow.

1516
01:07:46,860 --> 01:07:50,950
Speaker 2: And the family are subjected to near constant harassment. Charles

1517
01:07:50,990 --> 01:07:54,530
Speaker 2: later talks about their windows being broken, bags of vomit

1518
01:07:54,790 --> 01:07:58,550
Speaker 2: hurled at their house. Ew. And even their pets being attacked.

1519
01:07:58,630 --> 01:07:59,070
Speaker 3: No.

1520
01:07:59,270 --> 01:08:01,910
Speaker 2: Their three young children are bullied at school.

1521
01:08:01,930 --> 01:08:01,990
Speaker 1: Oh.

1522
01:08:02,390 --> 01:08:07,050
Speaker 2: It is for them like a nationwide scandal. Everyone knows

1523
01:08:07,110 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 2: about it.

1524
01:08:07,510 --> 01:08:08,570
Speaker 3: It's huge. Yeah.

1525
01:08:09,290 --> 01:08:13,830
Speaker 2: Techlin loses his job and, like Charles and Diana, becomes

1526
01:08:13,890 --> 01:08:17,309
Speaker 2: the butt of a nationwide running joke. At one point,

1527
01:08:17,410 --> 01:08:19,870
Speaker 2: he has to trademark his own name after a company

1528
01:08:19,910 --> 01:08:22,410
Speaker 2: tries to use it for a line of cough drops.

1529
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:26,220
Speaker 3: Oh, my God. For a line of cough drops. They

1530
01:08:26,260 --> 01:08:29,540
Speaker 3: got canceled. They got 2000 canceled.

1531
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:33,180
Speaker 2: They got 90s canceled, which is like, The bullying.

1532
01:08:33,260 --> 01:08:37,500
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's okay. They can say anything about you. Be evil. Yeah. Yeah.

1533
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:41,600
Speaker 2: Then in 2003, ITV airs a documentary about this case

1534
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:45,160
Speaker 2: called Major Fraud that is heavily weighted towards the prosecution's

1535
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:49,969
Speaker 2: version of events. It's watched by nearly 17 million people.

1536
01:08:49,990 --> 01:08:50,210
Speaker 3: Wow.

1537
01:08:50,270 --> 01:08:52,370
Speaker 2: So almost as much as Who Wants to Be a

1538
01:08:52,370 --> 01:08:56,330
Speaker 2: Millionaire with the highest ratings for a non-fictional TV program

1539
01:08:56,510 --> 01:08:58,370
Speaker 2: since Princess Diana's funeral.

1540
01:08:58,550 --> 01:08:59,510
Speaker 3: Holy shit.

1541
01:09:00,229 --> 01:09:03,840
Speaker 2: This documentary arguably helped solidify Charles' guilt in the minds

1542
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:06,379
Speaker 2: of the public. But over the years, more and more

1543
01:09:06,410 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 2: journalists and writers have questioned whether the prosecution's evidence proved

1544
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:14,839
Speaker 2: beyond a reasonable doubt that these three genuinely cheated.

1545
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:17,540
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought it was going to be not guilty, honestly. Right.

1546
01:09:17,890 --> 01:09:20,690
Speaker 2: Because it's like, it's vague enough to be like, there's...

1547
01:09:21,050 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 2: It's like, it's.

1548
01:09:22,300 --> 01:09:24,740
Speaker 3: Opinion, really, rather than fact.

1549
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:25,479
Speaker 2: Well.

1550
01:09:26,100 --> 01:09:27,280
Speaker 3: Like, it's very nuanced.

1551
01:09:27,580 --> 01:09:32,000
Speaker 2: Or it's almost like, do these, does A plus B

1552
01:09:32,020 --> 01:09:32,620
Speaker 2: equal C?

1553
01:09:32,660 --> 01:09:35,810
Speaker 3: I mean, I obviously believe it. It's true. They cheated, but.

1554
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:38,310
Speaker 2: Yeah. But you can't prove it. Yeah.

1555
01:09:38,350 --> 01:09:38,470
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1556
01:09:38,510 --> 01:09:42,450
Speaker 2: You're saying court-wise. Today, the story of the coughing major

1557
01:09:42,650 --> 01:09:45,470
Speaker 2: is alive and well in Britain. The reason we don't

1558
01:09:45,630 --> 01:09:49,670
Speaker 2: know it well... is because this incident happened two days

1559
01:09:49,770 --> 01:09:50,310
Speaker 2: before 9-11.

1560
01:09:50,689 --> 01:09:51,430
Speaker 3: I noticed that.

1561
01:09:51,490 --> 01:09:55,630
Speaker 2: It's one of those lost things where everyone in England

1562
01:09:55,790 --> 01:10:00,229
Speaker 2: knows it very well. There was a recent miniseries starring

1563
01:10:00,350 --> 01:10:06,750
Speaker 2: Matthew McFadden and Fleabag's Sean Clifford, the sister from Fleabag,

1564
01:10:07,530 --> 01:10:08,270
Speaker 2: as the Ingrams.

1565
01:10:08,570 --> 01:10:09,410
Speaker 3: Okay. Yes.

1566
01:10:10,060 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 2: And the real Charles and Diana Ingram have appeared on

1567
01:10:12,380 --> 01:10:14,780
Speaker 2: other game shows here and there as novelty contestants.

1568
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:14,870
Speaker 1: Aww.

1569
01:10:15,370 --> 01:10:18,390
Speaker 2: But mostly they live a private life, and they reportedly

1570
01:10:18,450 --> 01:10:22,910
Speaker 2: sell custom-made jewelry at craft markets. They still maintain their innocence,

1571
01:10:22,990 --> 01:10:25,930
Speaker 2: with Charles Ingram emerging in the press around the time

1572
01:10:26,070 --> 01:10:30,559
Speaker 2: Quiz was released, saying, quote, I should make one thing clear,

1573
01:10:31,220 --> 01:10:33,320
Speaker 2: and I'll only say it once and then move on.

1574
01:10:33,780 --> 01:10:36,559
Speaker 2: We didn't cheat on that show. There was no plan

1575
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:41,040
Speaker 2: to cheat on that show. I won that money perfectly, honestly,

1576
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 2: and fairly and squarely.

1577
01:10:45,780 --> 01:10:48,210
Speaker 3: No. Allegedly.

1578
01:10:48,470 --> 01:10:50,350
Speaker 2: And that is the story of the Who Wants to

1579
01:10:50,390 --> 01:10:52,150
Speaker 2: Be a Millionaire cheating scandal.

1580
01:10:52,210 --> 01:10:54,849
Speaker 3: Wow. I didn't know that one.

1581
01:10:55,010 --> 01:10:55,550
Speaker 2: Crazy.

1582
01:10:55,650 --> 01:10:58,950
Speaker 3: Yeah. Right? I thought I had some crazy idea. So

1583
01:10:59,689 --> 01:11:01,710
Speaker 3: when you said coughing and it was that simple because

1584
01:11:01,729 --> 01:11:04,370
Speaker 3: I thought it was like a multi-level, like people who

1585
01:11:04,410 --> 01:11:07,980
Speaker 3: worked there were in on it. No. Computers. Computers, like

1586
01:11:08,020 --> 01:11:09,740
Speaker 3: a fucking buzzer on your leg or whatever.

1587
01:11:10,850 --> 01:11:11,830
Speaker 2: No, it was old school.

1588
01:11:11,850 --> 01:11:12,190
Speaker 3: Coughing.

1589
01:11:12,290 --> 01:11:14,450
Speaker 2: It was Georgia in high school level.

1590
01:11:14,470 --> 01:11:14,910
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1591
01:11:15,010 --> 01:11:17,849
Speaker 2: Right? Which is like— But yours was way better. You

1592
01:11:18,270 --> 01:11:19,860
Speaker 2: can't do something audio.

1593
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:25,040
Speaker 3: I just think that getting greedy was the fucking thing.

1594
01:11:25,460 --> 01:11:27,420
Speaker 2: They had the perfect plan up until 32,000.

1595
01:11:27,420 --> 01:11:29,479
Speaker 3: Yep. That's why she was mad at him.

1596
01:11:29,620 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1597
01:11:30,979 --> 01:11:32,960
Speaker 3: I feel bad for them, though, now that they were

1598
01:11:32,979 --> 01:11:36,280
Speaker 3: so ripped apart. Like, that just sucks.

1599
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:39,600
Speaker 2: Because also it's like trying to get money on a

1600
01:11:39,620 --> 01:11:40,200
Speaker 2: game show.

1601
01:11:40,229 --> 01:11:40,309
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1602
01:11:41,070 --> 01:11:43,870
Speaker 2: It's like, you shouldn't be the worst person in the country.

1603
01:11:44,030 --> 01:11:46,430
Speaker 3: I would have thought they were like heroes a little bit,

1604
01:11:46,450 --> 01:11:47,830
Speaker 3: like hometown heroes kind of.

1605
01:11:47,930 --> 01:11:50,410
Speaker 2: Right, but it was the toxic 90s, 2000s.

1606
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:50,759
Speaker 3: Right.

1607
01:11:50,780 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 2: Where it was just like, here's the latest person we're

1608
01:11:54,540 --> 01:11:58,960
Speaker 2: going to crucify. Let's all go, everybody, brainlessly and mindlessly.

1609
01:11:59,180 --> 01:12:00,900
Speaker 3: I feel like at some point it's going to change

1610
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:03,450
Speaker 3: and they're going to be beloved by their people.

1611
01:12:03,970 --> 01:12:04,990
Speaker 2: We're going to start it right now.

1612
01:12:05,030 --> 01:12:05,269
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1613
01:12:05,430 --> 01:12:06,590
Speaker 2: Guys, England. England.

1614
01:12:07,020 --> 01:12:07,580
Speaker 3: Hear us out.

1615
01:12:07,939 --> 01:12:10,160
Speaker 2: We've made a lot of mistakes with your pronunciations.

1616
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:12,939
Speaker 3: What is the UK and what isn't the UK? Sometimes

1617
01:12:12,979 --> 01:12:13,500
Speaker 3: we don't know.

1618
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:17,129
Speaker 2: I think about that twice a week, that I made

1619
01:12:17,150 --> 01:12:19,810
Speaker 2: the mistake of calling Ireland the UK. Why am I

1620
01:12:19,830 --> 01:12:21,910
Speaker 2: saying it again? But this is what I'm saying. It's

1621
01:12:21,930 --> 01:12:25,670
Speaker 2: just like this is what happens when you fucking volunteer

1622
01:12:25,689 --> 01:12:27,790
Speaker 2: to put yourself on TV.

1623
01:12:27,850 --> 01:12:30,110
Speaker 3: When you fuck around, you usually find out.

1624
01:12:30,189 --> 01:12:32,440
Speaker 2: You get found out often.

1625
01:12:32,580 --> 01:12:32,920
Speaker 3: Often.

1626
01:12:33,260 --> 01:12:33,760
Speaker 2: So true.

1627
01:12:34,260 --> 01:12:36,300
Speaker 3: Wait, did this ever air? No. Okay.

1628
01:12:36,729 --> 01:12:39,810
Speaker 2: So we do, of course, have pictures because it was

1629
01:12:39,950 --> 01:12:43,189
Speaker 2: all filmed. Yeah. So this is when Diana was a contestant.

1630
01:12:43,510 --> 01:12:44,840
Speaker 3: Okay. She made it.

1631
01:12:45,410 --> 01:12:47,880
Speaker 2: And then here's when Teclan was a contestant.

1632
01:12:48,500 --> 01:12:50,900
Speaker 3: Okay. They don't look like cheaters.

1633
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:52,040
Speaker 2: They really don't.

1634
01:12:52,060 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 3: They look like teachers.

1635
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,120
Speaker 2: But I think that's the thing about British people.

1636
01:12:55,340 --> 01:12:55,440
Speaker 3: Right.

1637
01:12:55,460 --> 01:12:59,220
Speaker 2: It's just like you're so polite and you look so kind.

1638
01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:01,559
Speaker 3: You sound smart. Your accent makes you sound really smart.

1639
01:13:01,700 --> 01:13:03,830
Speaker 2: And yet you colonize the entire world.

1640
01:13:04,610 --> 01:13:04,969
Speaker 3: Sorry.

1641
01:13:04,990 --> 01:13:05,090
Speaker 1: Sorry.

1642
01:13:06,439 --> 01:13:10,500
Speaker 3: And yet, she won't give Ireland its own country back.

1643
01:13:10,540 --> 01:13:13,340
Speaker 2: Give Ireland back to the Irish. They're not a part

1644
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:17,570
Speaker 2: of the UK. We've learned that on this show. We've

1645
01:13:17,590 --> 01:13:20,830
Speaker 2: learned that here. And then here's the couple together.

1646
01:13:20,850 --> 01:13:25,929
Speaker 3: Okay, let's see. I mean, they win because they found love.

1647
01:13:26,189 --> 01:13:28,349
Speaker 3: Like in everyone else's face, they're still together.

1648
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:31,380
Speaker 2: I would like to be their defense lawyer for one

1649
01:13:31,420 --> 01:13:34,300
Speaker 2: second and just say, Look at that lovely kitchen that

1650
01:13:34,340 --> 01:13:37,059
Speaker 2: they came up with this stupid idea in where they're like,

1651
01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:39,059
Speaker 2: we're going to game the system a little bit.

1652
01:13:39,140 --> 01:13:39,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1653
01:13:39,700 --> 01:13:42,490
Speaker 2: We've already been on there. We can't go again. We

1654
01:13:42,530 --> 01:13:43,270
Speaker 2: need that money.

1655
01:13:43,390 --> 01:13:43,530
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1656
01:13:43,650 --> 01:13:44,830
Speaker 2: That's what it feels like to me.

1657
01:13:44,850 --> 01:13:47,309
Speaker 3: We need to remodel this kitchen. I'm sick of this kettle.

1658
01:13:48,210 --> 01:13:50,170
Speaker 3: It's the old kettle that we got for our wedding.

1659
01:13:51,030 --> 01:13:52,750
Speaker 2: This kettle, you don't hear anything, and then all of

1660
01:13:52,770 --> 01:13:54,720
Speaker 2: a sudden it sounds like a train's coming through the front.

1661
01:13:54,820 --> 01:13:57,440
Speaker 3: So let's cheat. So let's go.

1662
01:13:57,460 --> 01:14:01,460
Speaker 2: Let's go cheat the dumbest public way we possibly can.

1663
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:02,140
Speaker 2: So public.

1664
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:03,720
Speaker 3: Just rob a bank.

1665
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:06,710
Speaker 2: And also it is, I think when people get mad

1666
01:14:06,750 --> 01:14:11,030
Speaker 2: about stuff like that, it's because it's this overt disrespect

1667
01:14:11,470 --> 01:14:14,630
Speaker 2: to their intelligence. Where it's like, you think we didn't

1668
01:14:14,689 --> 01:14:17,800
Speaker 2: notice Coffee McGee over here the whole time?

1669
01:14:18,900 --> 01:14:24,840
Speaker 3: Right. Or they're mad that they didn't think of it. Amazing.

1670
01:14:24,939 --> 01:14:25,160
Speaker 2: Right?

1671
01:14:25,180 --> 01:14:28,040
Speaker 3: That was fun. I know.

1672
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:29,889
Speaker 2: We tried to balance it out.

1673
01:14:30,090 --> 01:14:30,350
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

1674
01:14:30,750 --> 01:14:32,139
Speaker 3: Whenever I hear these ones, all I think about is

1675
01:14:32,150 --> 01:14:35,280
Speaker 3: like a couple on a road trip. And she's like,

1676
01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:37,800
Speaker 3: just you have to listen to it. I know this

1677
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:40,240
Speaker 3: is like horrible and we're talking about like really bad stuff.

1678
01:14:40,300 --> 01:14:42,460
Speaker 3: But the second story is always a little lighter.

1679
01:14:42,939 --> 01:14:44,760
Speaker 2: They do something different in the second one. But the

1680
01:14:44,780 --> 01:14:48,000
Speaker 2: first one's important and you will listen to what it

1681
01:14:48,140 --> 01:14:48,600
Speaker 2: is like.

1682
01:14:48,620 --> 01:14:50,940
Speaker 3: The juxtaposition is amazing.

1683
01:14:51,270 --> 01:14:52,710
Speaker 2: It's part of the producing.

1684
01:14:52,770 --> 01:14:52,970
Speaker 3: Right.

1685
01:14:54,590 --> 01:14:59,549
Speaker 2: Also, it's important to talk about the things of– It

1686
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:02,690
Speaker 2: was the 90s. It was this. But now it's kind

1687
01:15:02,710 --> 01:15:07,110
Speaker 2: of like a cardiologist in the autopsy calling the shots.

1688
01:15:07,170 --> 01:15:07,430
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1689
01:15:07,970 --> 01:15:12,809
Speaker 2: And all the young people from this era who are

1690
01:15:12,900 --> 01:15:15,360
Speaker 2: now becoming forensic pathologists.

1691
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:16,679
Speaker 3: Oh, I love it.

1692
01:15:17,220 --> 01:15:20,960
Speaker 2: And whatever else they're becoming to basically be the people

1693
01:15:20,979 --> 01:15:23,580
Speaker 2: that are like, uh-uh, it doesn't work that way anymore.

1694
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:25,100
Speaker 3: I love it. I love when someone comes up to

1695
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:27,960
Speaker 3: us and says– I'm a criminologist. I'm going to school

1696
01:15:28,040 --> 01:15:29,420
Speaker 3: for forensics or something.

1697
01:15:29,460 --> 01:15:30,580
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.

1698
01:15:30,660 --> 01:15:31,540
Speaker 3: You're going to change the world.

1699
01:15:31,580 --> 01:15:33,150
Speaker 2: They're going to go in and represent.

1700
01:15:33,229 --> 01:15:35,710
Speaker 3: Hell, yeah. Yeah. We support you. Yeah.

1701
01:15:36,030 --> 01:15:39,930
Speaker 2: Marjorie, you're doing great with your studies and all the

1702
01:15:39,970 --> 01:15:41,269
Speaker 2: ways that you fight back.

1703
01:15:41,490 --> 01:15:44,309
Speaker 3: Yeah. Great work. We're fans.

1704
01:15:44,650 --> 01:15:57,700
Speaker 2: Yeah, we really are. Thank you. Welcome to another installation

1705
01:15:57,740 --> 01:16:00,000
Speaker 2: of Honking Hooray's brought to you by Hyundai.

1706
01:16:00,020 --> 01:16:00,600
Speaker 1: Wow.

1707
01:16:00,620 --> 01:16:03,030
Speaker 3: You want to go first? Sure. This is a good one.

1708
01:16:03,810 --> 01:16:06,729
Speaker 3: This is from Clove and Hound on Instagram. Hi, Karen

1709
01:16:06,750 --> 01:16:10,940
Speaker 3: and Georgia. I was just elected president of my all-volunteer

1710
01:16:11,180 --> 01:16:12,500
Speaker 3: search and rescue team.

1711
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:13,100
Speaker 2: Whoa.

1712
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:15,740
Speaker 3: And stepped into the role of head trainer at 33

1713
01:16:15,740 --> 01:16:19,639
Speaker 3: years old. Wow. SAR, search and rescue, is a very

1714
01:16:19,700 --> 01:16:23,020
Speaker 3: male-dominated field, and as a woman with anxiety, leadership always

1715
01:16:23,060 --> 01:16:25,719
Speaker 3: felt impossible to me. But I've been listening to MFM,

1716
01:16:25,880 --> 01:16:28,940
Speaker 3: that's us, since before I ever started training, and the

1717
01:16:29,020 --> 01:16:31,670
Speaker 3: strength and resilience in the stories you tell Help me

1718
01:16:31,750 --> 01:16:35,730
Speaker 3: push through fear in every tough scenario. Wow. Isn't that beautiful?

1719
01:16:35,890 --> 01:16:36,370
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is.

1720
01:16:36,430 --> 01:16:39,630
Speaker 3: Thank you, Cloven Hound. Congratulations. Good job. Kick some ass.

1721
01:16:39,689 --> 01:16:40,389
Speaker 3: Hooray for you.

1722
01:16:40,890 --> 01:16:45,260
Speaker 2: Well, this one, this hilarious one's from Kate Towery on

1723
01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:47,700
Speaker 2: Instagram says, I tried out for a part in a

1724
01:16:47,740 --> 01:16:49,000
Speaker 2: local theater production and.

1725
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:49,860
Speaker 3: Got the lead.

1726
01:16:50,300 --> 01:16:53,420
Speaker 2: I'm 40 and it's the first time acting since high school.

1727
01:16:53,500 --> 01:16:56,480
Speaker 3: That is incredible. And you know what? She's playing Annie.

1728
01:16:57,100 --> 01:16:57,640
Speaker 3: Is she? No.

1729
01:16:57,660 --> 01:16:59,180
Speaker 2: Wouldn't that be amazing?

1730
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:01,099
Speaker 3: She's a little girl. She's 40.

1731
01:17:01,100 --> 01:17:03,500
Speaker 2: Just a 40-year-old with a weird curly wig on.

1732
01:17:04,150 --> 01:17:07,550
Speaker 3: Okay, this one is from Kristen Loves Cats. Good for her. Yeah.

1733
01:17:07,790 --> 01:17:10,210
Speaker 3: I only have two weeks left at the office I'm

1734
01:17:10,330 --> 01:17:12,410
Speaker 3: now at before I get to go to a job

1735
01:17:12,570 --> 01:17:13,450
Speaker 3: with better pay.

1736
01:17:13,790 --> 01:17:14,469
Speaker 2: Oh, Chloe.

1737
01:17:14,689 --> 01:17:18,410
Speaker 3: Nice. Good job, Chloe. Congratulations, Chloe. You've done it. Take

1738
01:17:18,430 --> 01:17:20,600
Speaker 3: a vacation. What are you going to buy?

1739
01:17:21,220 --> 01:17:25,730
Speaker 2: This one says, from kates286 on Instagram... As an eldest

1740
01:17:25,790 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 2: daughter putting up boundaries with the fam, no more organizing

1741
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:30,599
Speaker 2: or planning for me.

1742
01:17:30,620 --> 01:17:34,180
Speaker 3: Wow. Sometimes you can just be the person who shows up.

1743
01:17:34,220 --> 01:17:36,580
Speaker 3: Just show up. As the youngest daughter. That's right. That's

1744
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:38,220
Speaker 3: what we say you can do. That is what you're

1745
01:17:38,240 --> 01:17:41,590
Speaker 3: bringing to the party is yourself. That's plenty. Okay. This

1746
01:17:41,670 --> 01:17:44,810
Speaker 3: one is from Taylor Caslin. It says, I bought bedside

1747
01:17:44,870 --> 01:17:49,450
Speaker 3: face wipes at Georgia's recommendation for lazy bedtime makeup removal.

1748
01:17:50,170 --> 01:17:51,900
Speaker 3: She did it. That's it. Hooray. Hooray for that.

1749
01:17:51,920 --> 01:17:54,740
Speaker 2: It's the simple things in life. This one's from Karen S.

1750
01:17:55,050 --> 01:17:56,630
Speaker 2: It's from Fan Cult, and it says, I found a

1751
01:17:56,670 --> 01:17:59,670
Speaker 2: picture of an Irish relative from the early 1900s I

1752
01:17:59,689 --> 01:18:02,090
Speaker 2: put it somewhere safe and promptly forgot where it was.

1753
01:18:02,490 --> 01:18:05,189
Speaker 2: It's been quote unquote safe for a couple of years.

1754
01:18:05,210 --> 01:18:07,410
Speaker 2: I was cleaning out old books the other day and

1755
01:18:07,430 --> 01:18:10,150
Speaker 2: I found the picture back. It is now safely framed

1756
01:18:10,370 --> 01:18:12,110
Speaker 2: and on a shelf for display.

1757
01:18:12,170 --> 01:18:15,229
Speaker 3: Amazing. Always check your books before you donate them because

1758
01:18:15,270 --> 01:18:17,690
Speaker 3: you never know what you stuck in there. Cash. Cash.

1759
01:18:17,770 --> 01:18:21,530
Speaker 3: Most likely cash. Treasure maps. Well, thank you guys for

1760
01:18:21,550 --> 01:18:24,450
Speaker 3: sending us your hoorays. We love them all. And thank

1761
01:18:24,470 --> 01:18:27,250
Speaker 3: you again to Hyundai for presenting them. Stay sexy. And

1762
01:18:27,310 --> 01:18:28,009
Speaker 3: don't get murdered.

1763
01:18:28,689 --> 01:18:29,089
Speaker 2: Bye.

1764
01:18:30,140 --> 01:18:31,120
Speaker 3: Elvis, do you want a cookie?

1765
01:18:40,030 --> 01:18:41,390
Speaker 2: Email your hometowns.

1766
01:18:40,950 --> 01:18:43,490
Speaker 3: To myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.

1767
01:18:43,090 --> 01:18:45,360
Speaker 2: And follow the show on Instagram at My Favorite Murder.

1768
01:19:02,300 --> 01:19:05,620
Speaker 2: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1769
01:19:05,700 --> 01:19:07,100
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.

1770
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:10,280
Speaker 3: Or watch new episodes every week on Netflix. Search for

1771
01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:12,760
Speaker 3: My Favorite Murder, add us to your list, and hit

1772
01:19:12,780 --> 01:19:16,530
Speaker 3: the double thumbs up button. Goodbye.