WEBVTT - SYSK Selects: How HeLa Cells Work 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.160 M Hey, everybody, This is Chuck and welcome to this 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.160 week's Saturday Stuff You Should Know Selects episode. Uh. This 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:09.040 week was my pick, and I picked the episode on 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.720 the HeLa Cells because I think this one had a 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:18.799 great mix of history and science. History episodes are some 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:20.360 of my favorites, and we got to tell a little 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:23.520 bit of the story of the great Henrietta Lacks and 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:25.599 um on the science end, we got to kind of 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:28.760 delve into the importance of HeLa cells. So I hope 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:30.960 you enjoy it this time around. If you've heard it before, 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:40.839 give it another listen. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:49.600 from House Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:52.479 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and Charles W. Chuck Bryant's 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:54.600 with me, and Cherry's with me, and that means that 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:56.400 the three of us all together make it s w 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.520 Should Know. Hey, man, Hey, you can see it good? 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:03.520 You see? So I'm pretty excited about this one. Actually, 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:06.160 oh yeah, it's been a long time coming. We have 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:08.919 tons of people email us about this book. This lady 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:14.280 in read a lax and her helok felt HeLa Heila, 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:19.200 it's Henrietta Lacks. It's probably a laugh I hear that, 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:21.880 but I think it's Heila and Helos probably the way 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:25.040 to go. We'll go, well, we'll just do our own thing, okay. Um, 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:27.240 but yeah, this has been like a really big fan 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:29.760 request over the years. Yeah, but it ties in. We 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:34.120 did a show on right do you own your We 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:36.200 have a right to privacy after you die? Yeah, and 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:38.440 I think that's when we got the most feedback about this. Yeah, 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.080 for sure, it ties in heavily. It definitely ties in heavily. 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.960 There's a big movement about basically respecting the dead, you know, 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:50.240 whether you're a an ancient mummy or a woman from 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.360 Baltimore and the who died in the fifties, Like how 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:55.680 much of an expectation of privacy and how much of 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.280 a right to what makes you you? Do you have 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:04.720 after you die? And the plight of Henrietta lacks Um 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:10.760 has definitely raised this national discussion about it, and you know, great, 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:13.120 I guess it is the only way to put it, Like, 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:16.200 it's really good that people are talking about this. And 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.600 it's not just privacy. There's also um a lot of 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:24.320 allegations of racism, profiteering. It's a really morally complicated story, 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:27.840 but a pretty interesting one too, because at the end 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:31.400 of the day, this lady has done more to further 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:38.760 science been possibly any one person on the planet. Yeah, 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:43.799 Jonah Sauk, you say he is he la cells? Yeah? 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:45.800 Is that gonna bug you every time I say that? No, 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:49.640 it's fun. Okay. I I've adjusted my brain so I 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.080 hear it the way that I want to now, So 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:56.680 go ahead, great. Uh, what we're talking about are the 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:59.680 cells of a woman, an African American woman named Henrietta 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:06.280 Lacks who in uh in Baltimore, Maryland. She was pregnant 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:10.400 with her fifth child and she felt what she described 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:15.040 as a not to her family inside her midsection, and 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:18.240 after childbirth, it was discovered that she had a lump 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:22.040 on her cervix and had cervical cancer about a year 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:25.560 after she gave birth. Yeah, and um, the only place 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:27.960 that would treat African Americans at the time in that 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.800 area was JOHNS Hopkins in Baltimore, which is sad in 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:36.120 its own right. So, uh, while she was sick and 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:40.080 being treated, one of her doctor's doctor, how are you 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.320 going to pronounce this? Is it gay or gay? Gay? Gay? 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.240 He was in her doctor he was he ran the 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:49.480 tissue culture lab. Yeah, but he um, they sent part 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.600 of her service away to a lab to get tested, 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:56.720 and it turns out that it was pretty remarkable in 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:59.960 the way that her cells divided. Yeah. Yeah, you gotta 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.720 understand this guy, Dr Gay. It's g g e y. 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:07.040 I would say gay gay? Is that what you were saying? 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:11.920 It could be g I just gonna call him Dr Gay. 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:16.159 Isn't everyone named Clark's so easy? Yeah? I'm boring though. 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.760 Um So, Dr Gay is basically this guy who he 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:24.720 his wife and an assistant run this tissue culture laboratory 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:29.960 at Johns Hopkins. And for literally decades, this man has 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.960 been trying to find a line of human cells that 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:38.279 will continue to reproduce and not just die when placed 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:42.560 in culture. One day he got a sample of some 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:47.800 cells taken from the tumor in Henrietta Lacks's cervix, and 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.640 he put them in culture and they started to divide. 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:53.599 And they divided again after that, and they divided again 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.600 after that. In every twenty four hours, the population of 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:01.960 soul cells and culture divided doubled. And this guy said, 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:05.039 Holy cow, this is it, Like, this is the first 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:08.240 time I've seen a line of immortal human cells. This 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:12.159 could advance science forever. By this time, I think henri 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.440 Alax was dead because was it a biopsy or was 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.040 it from her autopsy? Do you know it was from 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:23.040 the biopsy? But um, she passed away on October fourth, nine, 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:27.359 and I think all of this happened postmortem, and we 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:30.520 should like, I don't in any way want to diminish 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:32.760 what happened in between the time of her biopsy and 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:36.920 the time doctor gaze like eureka, like this woman had um. 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.440 She she got treatment, UM, but I mean the treatment 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:44.919 at the time was fairly primitive. Apparently radiation treatment meant 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:51.320 that you, um, you sewed little radioactive tubes into the 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:55.000 cervix and left them there. That was radiation treatment. There 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:57.480 was X ray treatment. She was in a tremendous amount 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:01.520 of pain. Um, and she she died horribly from this 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:07.600 extremely aggressive case of cervical cancer. At the time UM, 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:11.920 and she died in her family was poverty stricken. Uh. 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.240 They a lot of them didn't grow up to be 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:17.920 very well educated. And by the time this rolled around, 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:26.120 the the public awareness of Henriett Alacks's plight or post death, UM, 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.279 her family couldn't even afford healthcare for the most part, 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:32.120 which is a great irony of this whole thing. So 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.880 let's let's talk about what what happened after she died 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.600 in her m her cells continued on. Well, he named them, 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:40.520 first of all, and it's it's a common thing to 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:44.080 name the cells after the person from which they came, 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:48.400 and so a lot for many years people I thought 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:50.880 they said it was a lady named Helen Lane or 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.839 Helen Larson, right, because they're trying to create anonymity, like 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:58.840 you're trying to protect the donors identity, and they were 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.560 actually trying to throw pull off by saying they were 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.360 lying it was Helen Lane or Helen Larson. Yeah, I 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.320 don't know about that. And on an anonymity, why would 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:09.520 they name them after the person? Then? I don't know. 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.120 I think that they're trying to protect their their name. 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.040 Why would they name them after I think rather than 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:18.080 calling it at the time that Henrietta lacks cells, HELO 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:20.880 was good enough. Interesting. I would think if you're trying 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.160 to protect them, you wouldn't call it anything remotely close 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.920 to the right exactly. Well that's what they do now, Okay. Um, 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.760 So anyway, people didn't really check a lot because it's 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.760 just no one really cares that much in the medical community, 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.480 like who did these come from? It was really common 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:40.440 at the time and still to take tissue samples and 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:44.080 use them without consent. And that's one of the big 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.400 issues that came about later is she never knew that 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:49.920 her cells were going to be used in this way. Right. 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:51.880 Not only did she not know, her family had no 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.320 idea too. Yeah, but we should point out it wasn't 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:56.080 like against the law or anything, and there was nothing 0:07:56.080 --> 0:08:00.280 shady going on because it was commonplace. Right. We should 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.760 also point out that Dr gay I never sought to 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.400 profit from these things. Now, he would send them off 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:08.320 to people for free. Um, you have to buy them 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.680 now of course. Uh. And they're all different kinds of 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:15.400 strains that range in prices from two fifty bucks to 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:18.840 like thousands of dollars for example. Yeah, and we'll we'll 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:21.520 talk about that in a little while, and like you 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:23.800 can get online and buy them. Yeah, right, I went 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:25.920 today and I added some to the cart, and then 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.040 I was like, I'm just kidding, did you that car 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:32.080 is like Bryant? Yeah. I just was curious, so how 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:33.959 easy it would be, And I don't know if there 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.839 was a something later on in that process that I 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:40.080 would have to fill out or something, but I added 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.520 it to the cart. Uh. No, I don't think you 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.360 have to fill anything out to get human culture. Really. Yeah, 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.000 you don't have to prove that you're like a researcher 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:50.000 or some kind. I don't think so. No, as long 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.360 as it's not like, um, a bio hazard, I think interesting. 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:56.360 And I know some places that charge it different prices 0:08:56.400 --> 0:09:00.240 for nonprofits as well for the Yeah, but just that 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:02.560 much of a discount, Like I saw somewhere, it would 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.040 be like maybe you or I would pay two fifty bucks, 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:06.480 but if we had, if we were a five O 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.319 one C three, we'd pay like a hundred ninety. That's 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:14.400 not bad sixty. Yeah, I just thought it'd be more. Okay, 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:18.360 all right, so let's talk a little bit about why. Well, 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:20.480 first of all, we don't really know for sure why 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.280 herselves were so unique. Okay, so they think they might 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:26.520 have figured it out. I saw that in nature, Yes 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.560 I didn't. I don't know. I don't know. If I 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.160 thought that was solid, you didn't buy it. Well, I 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:34.760 don't think they even went on record saying it's super solid. 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:37.280 It's just a theory. So I from from what I 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:41.760 understand the what's her name, Rebecca Sclute? Yeah, she's who 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:44.839 wrote the book The Immortal Henry at a Las, Yes, 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:48.920 which is being options by Oprah Yeah for HBO. Yeah, 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:51.880 that would be a good one for a movie. Um. 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:56.079 So she apparently buys it. And because she was saying 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:58.760 that for many many years after the book came out, 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:00.480 well for a couple of years after a book came out, 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:02.200 because it came out in two thousand and ten, and 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:06.280 this explanation came out this year. Um that they had 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.320 to tell people on book tour, like, we have no 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.120 idea why herself kept growing and growing and now we 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.839 have a better understanding. But the explanation, Chuck and I 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:18.920 are referring to everybody. Um, so you get cervical cancer 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:22.280 from the human pepioma virus. There's two else, so it's 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:27.800 b O right, Okay, HPV and UM apparently, which is 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:31.200 very common by the way, Yes, um, but that's what 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:35.480 cervical cancer comes from Florida, I understand right. Okay, So 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:42.400 the HPV and Henrietta Lacks had insinuated its own genetic 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:47.559 material into her DNA right above a gene called mike 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:52.000 m YC and this gene, it's a regulatory gene, so 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.400 when it starts to when it's expression starts to get 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.680 hay wire, it can lead to cancer. So they think 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:04.040 that the placement of this HPV is what causes these 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:08.720 cells to grow and divide so quickly and so robustly, 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:14.240 because these HeLa cells are an immortal line of cells. 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:16.800 When you put them in the right conditions, you take 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:21.000 one cell, it will keep dividing indefinitely, And we should 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.720 probably talk about why that's a big thing, why other 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:27.360 people's cells don't normally do that. So before we move on, 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:34.880 I think it's a good time for a message break. Hey, 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:39.640 now we're back. Should we get into apoptosis? Apoptosis or 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:44.200 cellular suicide is or program cell death because you pick 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:47.640 many names. So from what I understand, program cell death 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.320 is like this whole general idea that a cell self destruction, 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:55.680 but there's different ways, and up poptosis is one of them. UM. Basically, 0:11:55.679 --> 0:12:00.000 when a cell is no longer needed, it commits cellular suicide. Uh, 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:04.600 it's not abnormal or scary, UM. Healthy adults, we have 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.360 billions of cells dying in our bone matter and intestines 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:09.720 every hour. Yeah, and then your white blood cells come along, 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:14.320 absorb all the detritus and move you move this this 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:17.600 stuff out through your sweat. Yeah. It basically balances cell 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:21.120 division out um tissue would grow or shrink if it 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.959 wasn't for apoptosis. So it's a good thing, right. Um. 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:29.319 Apparently we have web fingers as we develop in the womb, right, 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:35.920 and thanks to apoptosis, these cells degrade and your fingers 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:40.280 go back to to non webby versions of themselves. Well, 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:44.040 they don't go back to or go to. Yeah. Basically 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:47.640 all the cells, all the cells die in between your fingers, 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.679 and you don't look like a man from Atlantis. Right. 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:52.240 And this is also, like you said, I think a 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:57.200 check on cancerous growth because cancer is well tumor is 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.520 a cluster of cells that are growing out of control. 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.680 One of the conditions of life is controlled growth. Cancer 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.960 is uncontrolled growth. One way to keep that in check 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:10.640 is to have cells have a lifespan, and they typically 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:16.160 do in the healthy person. The cells divide um between 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:21.440 forty and sixty times and then they die. That's what's 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.240 called the hay Flick limit. Yeah, we've talked about that. Yeah, 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:26.600 and do you remember what it was. We've talked about 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:28.800 that a few times. Yeah, well, it's just so fascinating. 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:33.280 It is. Uh So cancer cells, like we said, don't 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:37.440 have the pc D and hers, thanks to Mike, are 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:41.280 just the hardiest they had ever discovered, and uh I 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.040 went on to be used in at least sixty cases 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:49.880 uh in medical journals and articles. Well, this is probably 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:54.640 written three months ago. You know. Um eleven thousand patents 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.880 relate to the use of the he LA cells. And 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.520 they're easy to store, they're easy to ship. They're basically 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.319 the best cells out there to work with for most 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:10.800 kinds of disease, although in viruses UM, although some doctors 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:12.960 say they can be a little too robust and mess 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:17.760 things up. So they these cells are. They're extremely robust, 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:21.520 They divide very quickly, They're very hardy. They also apparently 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:24.800 are airborne. Is one one way that they go and 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:28.880 contaminate other cultures. They can easily be transferred on clothes 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:33.000 or gloves or whatever, so they to some researchers, they 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:37.600 basically are like invasive. They're an invasive cell line. Uh 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:42.120 and by the early seventies they contaminated so many other 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.840 cell lines UM that doctors had to figure out how 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:50.480 way to identify HeLa cells from other cells. So they said, well, 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:54.040 we'll just call the family and and I think nine 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:59.120 day las Henriette's husband got a phone call that just 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:01.880 completely con used him. And this is the first seat 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.160 ever heard. This is the first the family found out 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.600 that these cells, that that this was going on the family. 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:13.000 This family had no idea. Yeah, but like we said, 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.240 they weren't highly educated. So when someone calls from Johns 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:20.600 Hopkins and says, your wife is still alive as cells 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.480 in a lab, they were really confused. And the daughter 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:27.960 even thought for a while that they had literally cloned 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:33.040 her mom and that versions of the mom were living 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:37.680 in London. Like, you know, she had no idea what 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:40.400 they were talking about, right, if so? But not only that, 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:43.560 the call apparently was later proven to be very misleading 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:46.640 because they were saying, we need to find out if 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.920 your kids have cancer. So well, what they wanted was 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.160 to see if they had the same properties as their mom. 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:57.000 They wanted they wanted the kids DNA so they could 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:01.360 identify HeLa DNA and other cultures because it had become 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:06.440 so invasive, right, so they were basically saying, you guys 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:08.960 might have cancer. But really what they were after was 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:12.760 their genetic material for for DNA typing. That's right. That's 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:16.920 extremely misleading and mean because once the kids went in 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:21.440 and got their um blood workups done, Johns Hopkins never 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:25.960 called back, so they were just left to wonder what 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.440 was going on. But I mean, think about it. So 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:30.560 let's say somebody called you and said, hey, um, we 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:32.360 think you might have cancer, come in and do some 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:34.640 blood work. You go in and get your blood work done, 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.120 and then they never call you back again. Wouldn't you 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:42.200 be worried? I get on the phone. Sure. So, like 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:46.000 we said, Chuck, this is a pretty morally complex situation. Um. 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:48.760 When the family did finally find out, they also realized 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:52.880 that this this their mother's cell line. Um was a 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.760 multi billion dollar cottage industry and they hadn't seen a 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.960 penny from it. Um. And so medical science kind of said, well, 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.440 ho hold on, let me let's let us explain all 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.240 the great things that your mother's cells have done. Right, 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:10.200 And I mean there's they've been involved in some pretty 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:15.800 spectacular scientific achievements. Yes, like we said, the study of viruses, 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:21.680 everything from measles to mumps, um created vaccines. In fact, 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.960 curing creating a vaccine for HPV. Yeah, so that she had. 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:28.679 They ended up getting a vaccine for that from ourselves, 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:32.400 which is pretty great. Like you said, Jonas Salk. With polio, 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:35.800 which has been eradicated here in the West, we should 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:39.199 explain how that happens to Like um, when you have 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:44.440 a live human cell, you have an opportunity to do 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:47.320 whatever you can to it and simulate what would happen 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.760 in a normal human body. And with polio, they took 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.439 the polio virus and injected the heli cell with the 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.640 polio virus, and then they injected the heli cell with 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:02.879 some of Jonas Salk's polio vaccine, and the polio virus 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:07.040 was eradicated in that heli cell. That's right, Yeah, you 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:11.399 just figured out that your vaccine works. They've used it 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:16.760 to study tuberculosis. Yeah HIV, we already said HBB Parkinson's. 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:21.800 They've used a lot in Parkinson's research, and even in 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:28.080 the transportation and standardization of just using cells like this period, 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:30.480 because you know, they were so great and they wanted 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.960 to use these, they had to figure out a better 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:35.960 way to ship them back and forth. And just a 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.920 lot of the standardization of these procedures are in place 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:41.879 now because of everyone wanted to work with these cells, 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:45.320 which is pretty great too, So okay, chuck. Um the 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:48.960 family finds out about this, they spend basically decades saying like, hey, 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.240 can somebody fill us in on what's going on here? 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:53.560 How are you guys making money off of this? Like 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:58.240 what's the deal? And we're just being ignored, And finally 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:01.840 Rebecca Sclute gets some involved. Yeah, she's a science writer. 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:03.679 I don't think we even mentioned that. Yeah, and the 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:07.480 author of the Immortal Henrietta Lacks right, Yeah, I think 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:09.920 it's The Immortal Life, The Immortal Life of Henriette A. 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:14.919 Lacks Um. And over time Sclute kind of befriends the 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:18.199 family and ends up writing this book and telling the 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:24.320 story of Henriett of Henrietta Alacks and basically just captures 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:28.040 the national attention. Basically says, this family, you can make 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:31.800 a pretty good case, was totally exploited as a whole, 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:36.040 or by the medical establishment as a whole, and let's 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:41.200 talk about this, and that's exactly what happened as a result. Yeah, um, 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:46.760 the family did look into getting money from it, but 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:50.919 that is pretty much completely off the table because that 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:55.120 opens up a can of worms that everybody's cells ever 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.200 used in any experiment would have to be tracked back 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:03.760 to their original family members and compensated. In the courts 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.800 of resoundingly said no, no, no, we can't do that. 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.439 Set halt medical research because we know it and we 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.040 can't do that. There was a case in nineteen eighty 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:18.680 where this this patient with leukemia um found out that 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:22.280 his doctor had taken cells from a biopsy and created 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:26.360 a cell line worth three billion dollars, and this case 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:28.200 went all the ways Supreme Court. In the Supreme Court 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:31.240 said sorry, man, yeah, once it's taken from your body, 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:33.719 it doesn't belong to you any longer. To a lot 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.320 of people still don't necessarily agree with, but that's the 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.280 that's the status quo as it stands to think. Everybody's 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:46.880 very protective of scientific um progress, especially in in eradicating 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:51.120 diseases as they should be. However, earlier this year there 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:55.359 was finally some good news for the Lax family. UH 0:20:55.400 --> 0:21:00.280 The National Institute of Health UM in I had to 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:02.280 two of her descendants to be part of the HeLa 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:06.320 Genome Data Access Working Group, which basically now they're a 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:10.480 part of the UM the board which considers applications to 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:14.240 use her cells. Yeah, because in addition, while this whole 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:17.320 thing is going on, this whole national conversation about what 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:20.560 should be done with the cell line, and um, you 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:24.800 know what rights a a person has to their own cells. 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:31.400 This European Scientific Agency cracked and published the HeLa genome, 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:37.120 which they published Henrietta Lacks's genome just out there, open 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:39.200 to the public. And it's been proven that you can 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:43.600 you can find someone's identity out just from their genome, 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:46.360 and you can also find out a lot about their descendants. 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:48.960 So it was a big deal. This European agency took 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:52.600 it down. But now it's been placed behind this UM. 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:56.119 It's it's under like a password, lock and key in 0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:59.120 this database, so there's access to it. You can get 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:01.680 access to but you to apply to that working group. 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:05.479 That's right. So now the Data Access Group UM, they 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:09.639 apply for permission, they agree not to contact the family 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:13.040 members of Henrietta Lacks, agreed to use them only for 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:18.080 biomedical research only, and UM, some of the family members 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:21.320 will handle those requests along with uh, you know, the 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:23.199 other people on the board. It's not like they're the 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:25.200 only ones that are left to decide this of course, 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:29.600 and um, like I said, they did ask about paying, 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:31.600 and they said, maybe we can think of some other 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:34.840 ways for you to make money off this, like patenting 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:38.240 a genetic test for cancer based on your mom's cells. 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:40.359 But they have not yet come up with any way 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:43.480 to make money off of it. So a lot of 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:45.600 other people have, Like you were saying, you can go 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:48.720 online and buy a vial of cells for like two 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:52.920 bucks or something like that. There's other ones that, um, 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:55.480 you can buy that have HeLa cells that are like 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:59.200 ten thousand dollars. And I read this explanation of all 0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:01.639 that that if you take one of those ten tho 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:07.000 dollar vials, it has all these other patented processes and 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:11.399 proteins and genes and things, and that that account for 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:16.240 that increased amount of money, that increased cost. And then 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:19.320 even the vile it's like, well, it costs money to 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:21.840 produce these things and store them and ship them and 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:26.200 all that. So the the idea that there's somebody out 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:28.919 there that's just making tons of cash off this is not. 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:33.880 That it's much more spread out and it's much less obvious, 0:23:34.040 --> 0:23:37.040 and um, there's really not that much of a bad 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:39.680 guy in this story as much as you want there 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:42.160 to be. And even the author of the book is like, 0:23:42.280 --> 0:23:45.280 there's there's a lot of like shifting sands in this 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:48.080 and it's not cutting dry and black and white. And 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:49.840 you know, at the end of the day, we want 0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:53.320 biomedical research to keep progressing. Yeah. I don't think anyone 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:55.280 necessarily looking for a bad guy as much as they're 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:58.480 looking for a good ending for that family. Well, it 0:23:58.480 --> 0:24:02.040 sounds like they got them. No, I mean they got 0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:06.600 an apology. Yeah, there's now endowed um scholarships and chairs 0:24:06.640 --> 0:24:10.359 at universities around the country in her name. And I 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:12.439