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Speaker 1: When you combine the gift of storytelling with twenty six

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Speaker 1: years in the FBI, you get the electrified Jerry Williams honey.

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Speaker 1: Most of her time at the bureau, she worked economic crimes.

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Speaker 1: She was the person that oversaw so many schemes and

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Speaker 1: corruption and corporations and public officials. She would go after

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Speaker 1: people that devise such schemes to steal your money. She

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Speaker 1: headed up the whole than she was coming after you

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Speaker 1: if you conned, or swindled or just flat stole somebody's money.

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Speaker 1: She's an author, a podcaster, a TV consultant. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: get back to that in a minute. Jerry Williams loves

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Speaker 1: the FBI, and y'all, she is on a mission to

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Speaker 1: make sure what is shown about the FBI is what

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Speaker 1: the FBI actually does. She doesn't want any of the

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Speaker 1: cliches out there that are not really true. She wants

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Speaker 1: you to know just how remarkable the men and women

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Speaker 1: of the FBI are. And I want to tell you

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Speaker 1: something about her if you're not already impressed enough. On

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Speaker 1: November the eighteenth, twenty twenty one, in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: The FBI Agent Association recognized Jerry Williams as the g

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Speaker 1: Man Distinguished Service on her e So that is her peers,

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Speaker 1: literally her peers saying you are one of the best

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Speaker 1: there is. Jerry also serves as a TV consultant. I

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Speaker 1: tell y'all, we're going to get back to this with

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Speaker 1: TV networks and major production companies. But again she tells

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Speaker 1: them she only wants them to depict the actual factual

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Speaker 1: work that they do. I got a buddy, y'all that

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Speaker 1: after we saw conn Air. He told me the only

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Speaker 1: thing in that movie that was real was the elevator.

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Speaker 1: So I get it. She wants her FBI shown in

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Speaker 1: the best possible light, but the most factual light. Y'all

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Speaker 1: please help me. Welcome Jerry Williams to z Own seven.

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Speaker 1: And y'all know her from her own podcast, so don't

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Speaker 1: act like you don't already know her FBI Retired case

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Speaker 1: file Review, Miss Williams, Welcome, Welcome.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, I'm thinking, who is she talking about?

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Speaker 2: It sounds so great. Who's this person? I would to

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Speaker 2: meet her too, So thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: She is fantastic. You would love her. I'm telling you.

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Speaker 2: What a great introduction. I really appreciate it. And of

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Speaker 2: course I'm just so excited to be here because I

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Speaker 2: feel like like we're best friends. You have such a

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Speaker 2: great personality and everybody loves you. So it's like I'm

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Speaker 2: on Cheryl's team now, so I'm excited to be here too.

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Speaker 1: Baby, you are on my team. But listen, I gotta

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Speaker 1: be honest. I was a little conflicted even talking to

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Speaker 1: you because I do have a past. So when you

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Speaker 1: start talking about cons and swindles and schemes, I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you one little thing. So it was about nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: one and Hank Aaron was a pretty significant figure in Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: I had acquired about twenty five baseballs.

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Speaker 2: Oh this is a memorabilia.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so I may or may not have signed

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Speaker 1: his name on a few of them.

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Speaker 2: Well, the statute of limitations is over, so you're s.

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Speaker 1: The only reason I'm mentioning it because I thought, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I want to talk to her or not,

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Speaker 1: because she's kind of you know, she may have a

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Speaker 1: file on me. But anyway, of course I sold them

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Speaker 1: like crazy people. Really that was a hot item, baby,

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Speaker 1: And then of course my parents are like, uh, you

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Speaker 1: got to give all that money back, so you know,

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Speaker 1: they weren't really with the program. We could have made

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Speaker 1: a lot of money. And I won't even get into

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Speaker 1: the deal where I learned what COEOD was and I

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Speaker 1: ordered an entire chinchilla farm because I didn't have to

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Speaker 1: have any money because yeah, my dad sent those back too.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, you just want to be poor, Like

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Speaker 1: I've got these schemes, We can do them. I mean

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Speaker 1: people won't for CODs.

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Speaker 2: You know. Well, I think that's what gets people in trouble.

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Speaker 2: Are those get rich quick schemes.

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Speaker 1: That's the ticket. And see that's what this whole article

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Speaker 1: that I read about these chinchilla is. It said get

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Speaker 1: rich quick, and I'm like, why would anybody do it

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Speaker 1: any other way? That's come on, Agent Williams.

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Speaker 2: I'm taking notes here, sooner or later we'll get into

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Speaker 2: something maybe that's more recent.

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Speaker 1: That's I can't talk about any of my recent stuff

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Speaker 1: only nineteen seventy one. We're going to move on. But

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Speaker 1: I want to hear from you because you weren't some

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Speaker 1: significant cases. So just tell us, do you just go

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Speaker 1: and start where you want to start?

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Speaker 2: Well, I have always been fascinated by fraud. Now when

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Speaker 2: you join the FBI, a lot of times, the squad

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Speaker 2: that you're assigned to is just given to you. You're

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Speaker 2: just a body, and they say, okay, well go to

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Speaker 2: that squad. I was lucky because one of the first

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Speaker 2: squads that I got to got assigned to, was a

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Speaker 2: government fraud squad. Now I don't I didn't like government

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Speaker 2: fraud as much as I do just economic crime because

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Speaker 2: I need a victim. And I know everybody who is

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Speaker 2: in the true crime industry understands that, you know, to

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Speaker 2: you want to care, and you want to you know,

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Speaker 2: have a connection, and so I need a victim. And

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Speaker 2: having the government, you know, just an entity as the victim,

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Speaker 2: wasn't as exciting. But when I started doing economic crime

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Speaker 2: and you had, you know, an elderly couple, are a

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Speaker 2: businessman that was just trying to save his company. When

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Speaker 2: you have those type of people as your victims, then

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Speaker 2: it started to really mean something to me. And it

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Speaker 2: became something that I knew that I wanted to do.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've been out of the FBI for a

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Speaker 2: long time, but I'm still fascinated by fraud. I still

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Speaker 2: write about fraud, I still listen to podcasts that are

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Speaker 2: about fraud. I'm I'm into fraud, but not the way

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Speaker 2: you were back in nineteen seventy one. I'm on the

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Speaker 2: other side.

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Speaker 1: Well, I did, you know, change my path thankfully, But

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Speaker 1: you know, for me, when you just said that about

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Speaker 1: the elderly couple, you know, you reach a certain age

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Speaker 1: and you realize, I don't even have enough time to

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Speaker 1: start over if I needed to. And if you think

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Speaker 1: somebody you know, took some fortune or somebody's nest egg

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Speaker 1: or somebody's retirement life savings, life savings, I mean, there

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Speaker 1: would be no way to recover that money.

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Speaker 2: And you know, a lot of times it's not just

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Speaker 2: the life savings that hurts victims of elderly fraud. It's

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Speaker 2: also the fact that they were hoping to leave something

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Speaker 2: behind for their kids and their grandkids, and that inheritance

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Speaker 2: it's gone. You know, you talk about violence and murders

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Speaker 2: and all of that. Of course it's very, very, very serious,

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Speaker 2: but sometimes people forget about the significance of the violence

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Speaker 2: of being, you know, your whole life being ripped from

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Speaker 2: you and as you said, having to start over, are

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Speaker 2: not living the retirement life that you work so hard

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Speaker 2: to acquire. I mean, that's the type of financial violence too.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And you know, you worked some things that I

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Speaker 1: don't know that everybody even knows exist at the level

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Speaker 1: that you do, like adoption for Aull.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I didn't actually work the case myself, but I

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Speaker 2: worked alongside someone in my squad, and that case and

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Speaker 2: those cases, because there were more than one, were very

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Speaker 2: very important to me because my three children were all

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Speaker 2: adopted as babies as infants. And so when I see

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Speaker 2: someone taking advantage of the desperation of a couple trying

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Speaker 2: to have a child and then ripping that away from

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Speaker 2: them along with their ability financial ability to do it

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Speaker 2: again or try again, it's just it's just devastating that

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Speaker 2: someone is so evil that they would scam a couple

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Speaker 2: out of the money that they wanted to use to

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Speaker 2: adopt a baby.

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Speaker 1: And like you're saying, I mean you at the beginning

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Speaker 1: you thought, well do I have a victim? Yes, you

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Speaker 1: have a victim. You have a victim in every sense

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Speaker 1: of the word. Because when you cannot do things financially.

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Speaker 1: Now you're talking about your health, where you live, what

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Speaker 1: you can eat, how much medication you can afford, it

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Speaker 1: affects everything.

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Speaker 2: And the thing about being a victim of a scam

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Speaker 2: when you're a victim of violent crime, there is nobody

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Speaker 2: who's going to come to you and say it's your

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Speaker 2: fault or make you feel shameful of the fact that

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Speaker 2: you are assaulted or somebody near you was murdered. That

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Speaker 2: you have the automatic acceptance and condolence and love and

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Speaker 2: sympathy of those around you. But the problem with being

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Speaker 2: a victim of a scam is that you are sometimes

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Speaker 2: made to feel responsible shameful, because the difference with being

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Speaker 2: a victim of theft and being a victim of a

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Speaker 2: scam is that in most situations, no one held a

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Speaker 2: gun to your head and took your money. What they

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Speaker 2: did is gave you a proposal or a proposition, or

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Speaker 2: they told you a lie. Are they did something that

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Speaker 2: made you feel comfortable to give them your money, and

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Speaker 2: because of that, they don't get the same type of sympathy.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes when this type of activity is done to them,

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Speaker 2: you know they're made to feel like I wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: done it. And the thing is that con artists spend

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Speaker 2: all of their time devising schemes and ways to steal

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Speaker 2: and take other people's money, and there most of us

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Speaker 2: are not in a position to realize that we're being

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Speaker 2: scammed at the time we're being scammed.

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Speaker 1: So whether it's a charity or romance scam, it's like

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Speaker 1: the one that's going on now where somebody calls the grandparents, Oh,

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Speaker 1: your grandson's in jail. He needs bond right now. You've

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Speaker 1: got to pay it right now.

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Speaker 2: Right now, that urgency.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you don't want him sitting in jail. You've

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Speaker 1: heard such horrible things that happen to people when they're

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Speaker 1: in jail, so of course they pay it immediately. And

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Speaker 1: a child, of course, is not in jail.

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Speaker 2: Child is at college or you know, on spring break someplace,

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Speaker 2: having a great time, and they have no idea you

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Speaker 2: know that the again mental violence that's being done to

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Speaker 2: their grandparents as they desperately try to save their their grandchild.

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Speaker 2: I just isn't it just amazing? Can't you? Don't you

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Speaker 2: wonder what people say to themselves that make them feel

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Speaker 2: that it's okay to do this to others.

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Speaker 1: It's remarkable because again, you know, people work so hard

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Speaker 1: for their money and they want the best thing for themselves.

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Speaker 1: So if they're given to charity, or they're trying to

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Speaker 1: find love, or they're older and they're Hey, we can

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Speaker 1: double our money and leave something for the kids. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just horrible. It's absolutely debilitating, I think for families.

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Speaker 1: And to your point, I think there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: people that get conned and they're never gonna report it

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Speaker 1: because they feel stupid.

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Speaker 2: We really have no idea how much the loss is

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Speaker 2: because many people, once they realize they've been conned, they

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Speaker 2: assume that nothing could be done about it, and most

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Speaker 2: of the time they're right about that, and they just

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Speaker 2: don't even tell anybody. They're so ashamed. And the message

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Speaker 2: I like to make sure to get out is that

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Speaker 2: these people are skilled and trained in order to do this,

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Speaker 2: and there are many people who are kind and generous

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Speaker 2: and they have no idea that someone would stoop this

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Speaker 2: low in order to take their money.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I'm sure you know Frank Avangale and

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Speaker 1: have probably worked with him, But you know, what he

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Speaker 1: did was so simple. But you got a guy in

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Speaker 1: a pilot outfit walking through an airport. Nobody's gonna question that.

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Speaker 1: I have never once looked at a pilot in the

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Speaker 1: airport and thought, I bet he's not a real pilot.

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Speaker 1: I bet he's just here getting free food. Or whatever.

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Speaker 1: I mean that he did it in such a way

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Speaker 1: that people accepted it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I have to say this is kind of controversial,

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Speaker 2: but you know, there have been research done that have

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Speaker 2: indicated that a lot of things that Frank Abogneil said

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Speaker 2: that he did he didn't do either. So that's part

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Speaker 2: of it. Yeah, so that's.

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Speaker 1: Again, he continues, He continues to con it's the long game.

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Speaker 1: Who's going to know what? And now there's a movie,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, So people are going to

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Speaker 1: believe the movie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, So let me ask you this.

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Speaker 1: I know that you want the FBI to be shown

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Speaker 1: in the correct light, which I believe is the best light.

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Speaker 1: The things that the FBI has done is second to none,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think it needs any changing at all,

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Speaker 1: any rebranding, any recrafting. I think it's one of the

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Speaker 1: greatest organizations in the world for crime fighting. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think you've got you know, Scotland Yard and a

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Speaker 1: few others, but the FBI is right there at all times.

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Speaker 1: What you know Hoover did with fingerprinting and the mob

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Speaker 1: and you know, the ten most Wanted and public Enemy

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Speaker 1: number one, we're still using it absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I mean I can't say anything against all of that.

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Speaker 2: I think though, that what most people know about the

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Speaker 2: FBI they get from books, TV and movies, and so,

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Speaker 2: you know, part of my show of putting out the

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Speaker 2: case reviews and letting people understand, you know, who the

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Speaker 2: FBI is and what the FBI does on that level

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Speaker 2: helps to counteract some of the things that they might

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Speaker 2: see on TV or movies. Are reading a book, because

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of things out there that are inaccurate

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Speaker 2: our cliches, especially the one where the FBI doesn't play

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Speaker 2: well with others. That is absolutely not true.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into it. So you have come on here

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Speaker 1: and we're going to have this great conversation. So why

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Speaker 1: don't you tell us about the X File?

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Speaker 2: There are no X files. That's that's all fake that

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Speaker 2: what's all TV. What I hate to break it to you.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm just going to have to apologize to my audience.

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Speaker 1: I thought we were going to get some you know,

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Speaker 1: first hand secret squirrel information. So the X Files don't exist.

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Speaker 2: Now they do not only only as a TV show,

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Speaker 2: a very well done, popular TV show that I even love,

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Speaker 2: but it is none of it. It's true, none of it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I guess next you're gonna tell us, Elliot,

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Speaker 1: NAIs what an FBI agent?

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Speaker 2: Elliot? And that's was not an FBI agent.

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Speaker 1: Jerry Wills a treasury Yeah, he's he was a Treasury agent.

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Speaker 2: I think I think you may need to read my book.

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Speaker 2: Not not to plug my book, but I have I

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Speaker 2: do have a book called FBI Myss and Misconceptions, a

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Speaker 2: manual for armchaired detectives. You may I'm going to send

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Speaker 2: you a copy. I'm gonna give a copy to you.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna get that tonight. I'm gonna send it.

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Speaker 2: To you tonight. Don't don't get it. I'm gonna send

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Speaker 2: it to you because because I think you might need

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Speaker 2: to read it.

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Speaker 1: I do need to read it. And y'all this is

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Speaker 1: why this is so important. I mean, I wanted, you know,

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Speaker 1: agent Williams to come here and break some things down.

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Speaker 1: So now I'm going to ask you, when you are

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Speaker 1: watching TV and you are watching movies, what are the

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Speaker 1: some of the top five for you where you just go,

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Speaker 1: oh good lord.

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Speaker 2: Definitely the one about the FBI doesn't play well with others.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's like, what was that movie that they

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Speaker 2: had everybody calls it a Christmas mute, a movie with

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Speaker 2: Bruce Willis Diehard. There's that famous scene where the police

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Speaker 2: are there and the bad guys are in the building,

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Speaker 2: and the FBI walks up and says, what's going on here?

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Speaker 2: And the police officer introduces himselves, saying, my name is

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Speaker 2: Detective so and so, and I'm in charge, and the

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Speaker 2: FBI agent looks at him and says, not anymore. It's

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Speaker 2: a great scene. But first of all, and real life,

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Speaker 2: they would have already known each other, you know, they

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Speaker 2: would have been dealing with each other, you know, going

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Speaker 2: up for breakfast. They would have been already acquainted. Because we,

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Speaker 2: of course, and all of our offices and major offices

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Speaker 2: have task force, you know, violent Crime task Force. You know,

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Speaker 2: we have terrorism task Force where all of the local

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Speaker 2: police departments and the state police, you know, local state,

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Speaker 2: federal agencies are all working together, sitting side by side

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Speaker 2: usually an FBI space, working on these cases together. So

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Speaker 2: it's very, very seldom that an FBI agent can walk

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Speaker 2: into a situation or a crime scene and he doesn't

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Speaker 2: know most of the people there.

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Speaker 1: But you know, in my department, we have the FBI

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Speaker 1: stopped by every now and then, just for the purpose

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Speaker 1: of you know what you're talking about, to make sure

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Speaker 1: we do know them, we know how to reach them,

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Speaker 1: we know who does what, and that's happened i'd say

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Speaker 1: in the last nine years at least five times to

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Speaker 1: your point. I mean, that's what they want to do,

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Speaker 1: and they want to help. You know, we can reach

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Speaker 1: out to the BAU ourselves and they will help us

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Speaker 1: on a case. You know, by robberies. Y'all are there

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Speaker 1: quicker than almost anybody. So it's been a great relationship

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Speaker 1: for us too. In my department, I can tell you that.

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Speaker 2: The other cliche that you get a lot is that,

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Speaker 2: you know, FBI agents are unemotional and they have no

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Speaker 2: sense of humor. And I know, I was listening to

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Speaker 2: one of your shows, probably a few months ago, and

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Speaker 2: you had like four people on at the same time,

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Speaker 2: and you were telling stories, funny stories from your days

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Speaker 2: in the field. And that's the way it is, even

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Speaker 2: as FBI agents. I mean, my goodness, you got to

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Speaker 2: have thick skin because we're always you know, we were

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Speaker 2: always telling jokes and you know, making fun of each other,

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Speaker 2: and you know, it's the FBI family is a very large,

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Speaker 2: but dysfunctional family, and practical jokes are played all the time.

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Speaker 1: It's the way to get through it. I mean to me,

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Speaker 1: I mean, your your battle buddies, and you experience things

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Speaker 1: that other people number one don't know anything about and

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Speaker 1: certainly don't have to go through it. So that humor

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Speaker 1: and the you know, good time just ribbing each other,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's part of it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if you think about it this way,

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Speaker 2: just as a family of your own siblings, your brothers

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Speaker 2: and sisters, I mean, you're teasing each other and making

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Speaker 2: fun of it. You know, I'm Mom's favorite. You know,

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Speaker 2: you were adopted all of that. So you know, if

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Speaker 2: it's truly an FBI family, yeah, we're going to have

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Speaker 2: a lot of that ribbon too. So yeah, so yeah,

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Speaker 2: whenever I see that unemotional you know men in Black portrayal, well,

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Speaker 2: first of all, I like to remind people that there

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Speaker 2: are both lots of women and minority agents and well

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Speaker 2: not lots, but there's up good. But you know, it's

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Speaker 2: just so untrue that the age all care not just

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Speaker 2: about the victims, but their witnesses and even their subjects.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I've got episodes on my podcast where

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Speaker 2: we talk about how you know agents went out of

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Speaker 2: their way to protect and save and you know, their

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Speaker 2: own subjects in the case.

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Speaker 1: So Silence of the Lambs. Yes, how do you feel

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Speaker 1: about that movie?

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Speaker 2: Well, I agree with you that when you have a

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Speaker 2: movie or TV show that promotes any of our law

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Speaker 2: enforcement agencies and a good light and show them and

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Speaker 2: the you know, in a heroic role, that's a good thing.

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Speaker 2: But I think most FBI profilers will let you know

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Speaker 2: it's a very matter of fact. You had Julia Kelly

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Speaker 2: on your show, and they'll tell you it's a very

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Speaker 2: competitive position and brand new agents who haven't even graduated

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Speaker 2: from Quantico need not apply.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's smart, and I'll go one step further,

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Speaker 1: even in my police department, not at the federal level,

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Speaker 1: at the local city level. You need time on the street.

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Speaker 1: There's no way you could possibly take on a significant

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Speaker 1: case without having some seasoning, and that you should won't

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Speaker 1: for yourself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't even imagine, you know, the imposter syndrome

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Speaker 2: you would experience walking into a situation as a a

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Speaker 2: profiler trying to analyze somebody else's case when you don't

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Speaker 2: even have any experience behind you. So I've done a

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Speaker 2: lot of interviews with different profilers from the BAU over

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Speaker 2: the years. I've been doing my podcast for eight years,

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Speaker 2: and they'll all tell you this same thing. That they

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Speaker 2: worked in the field, really honing their skills, most of them,

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Speaker 2: you know, and on squads that investigative violent crime, and

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Speaker 2: that's what enabled them to be able then to back

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Speaker 2: it up with research in order to be a consultant

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Speaker 2: on somebody else's case and trying to help them figure

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Speaker 2: out what's going on and who possibly could have committed

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Speaker 2: the crime.

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Speaker 1: I am a firm believer. You need to get out there.

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Speaker 1: You need to be lied to, you need to be threatened,

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Speaker 1: you need to be spit on. You get to it.

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Speaker 2: Maybe not that one, well maybe not that one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's true, but it helps you. It helps you

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Speaker 1: know when you knock on the next door, is this

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Speaker 1: person lying to me? Because if you go in the

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Speaker 1: police department, you know, from high school right into the job,

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Speaker 1: or from college right into the job. You're twenty one,

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Speaker 1: I mean a couple of years ago, so you were

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Speaker 1: at prom. You do not know what is going on

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Speaker 1: on these streets. You're not ready. There's an underbelly and

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Speaker 1: you've got to learn it, and you've got to understand it,

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Speaker 1: and you need to know how do I make friends?

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Speaker 1: How do I talk to people? I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you have seen this, Jerry, but you've got a generation

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Speaker 1: right now that is so technologically advanced, but they don't

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Speaker 1: talk to each other.

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Speaker 2: I was just talking to somebody about this. I might

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Speaker 2: have been this morning about having a class. Where did

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Speaker 2: I hear that? Having a Police Academy class and during

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Speaker 2: their breaks everybody pulled out their phone and was looking

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Speaker 2: at their phone instead of communicating with their new class members.

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Speaker 2: Did I listen to that on a podcast or does

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Speaker 2: somebody tell me that?

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Speaker 1: But it's the truth.

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Speaker 2: But it's the truth now. And another thing about having

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Speaker 2: some years behind you is that you know yourself better.

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Speaker 2: So if someone says something to you or does something

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Speaker 2: to you, it doesn't hit those triggers where you respond

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Speaker 2: in a way that might not be professional. You know

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Speaker 2: who you are and you can take it. And your

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Speaker 2: whole purpose is just to get that person to give

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Speaker 2: you the information that you need to tell you what

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Speaker 2: you want, what you need to hear. And so no

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Speaker 2: matter what they say to you, of course, we don't

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Speaker 2: want them spitting on us. But you know, you can

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Speaker 2: sit there and take it and be okay with it

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Speaker 2: because you know who you are and you know the

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Speaker 2: purpose of your interaction with them, and so that also

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Speaker 2: comes from time on the earth.

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Speaker 1: You know, agree, that's the best thing that you could

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Speaker 1: have possibly said. For the rookies listening to this, that's

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Speaker 1: the truth. And I usually warn them if you do

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Speaker 1: have something that sends you out, you just cannot hardly

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Speaker 1: control your temper. If somebody calls you X whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: you better let your partner know, let them step in

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Speaker 1: before you get both of y'all in some trouble, because

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Speaker 1: until you can control that, you don't need to be

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Speaker 1: out there without somebody that has your back.

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Speaker 2: I was underestimated for you know, the first half of

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Speaker 2: my FBI career. First of all, there's only one percent

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Speaker 2: of the FBI ranks or black females, And so when

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Speaker 2: I would walk into a situation, somebody's already looking at

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Speaker 2: me like who the hell is she? But you know,

434
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: and then you know, like automatically assume that I don't

435
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 2: know what I'm talking about or I don't know what

436
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 2: I'm doing, and then they soon find out that that's

437
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 2: not actually correct. And so I'm fine with it. I

438
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 2: don't care what you think. You know, I got a

439
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,719
Speaker 2: job to do, and I am going to allow you

440
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 2: to be you so that I can get the information

441
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 2: that I need from you.

442
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: But you also walked in that room correctly every single time,

443
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 1: so you don't have to walk in and pitch a

444
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: fit and let everybody know who you are. You showed

445
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: them money, and to me, that's the best way. If

446
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: they think, oh, you know, these women, they ought to

447
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: be at home, Okay, give her five minutes. And when

448
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: you laid out that first case and you had thirty

449
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: six warrants ready, they took notice.

450
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: Well, I joined the FBI in nineteen eighty two, so

451
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: not only the witnesses and the subjects felt that way,

452
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 2: but there might have been a few of my fellow

453
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 2: agents that felt that way too. So I got you know,

454
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: my skin got tough pretty quick, and then you know,

455
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 2: I moved on from there. Ah. So I love to,

456
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 2: you know, see these TV shows and movies and read

457
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: these books with strong, you know, determined, talented, intelligent FBI

458
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 2: women characters. And so I'm not as strict as I

459
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 2: started out being eight years ago when it came to

460
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 2: you know, my twenty cliches about the FBI and trying

461
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 2: to you know, to pop people on the hand with

462
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 2: a ruler if they got it wrong. I now realize

463
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 2: that again, anything positive that's out there is, you know,

464
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 2: a good thing. I mean, the TV show on Tuesdays

465
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: when they have the FBI shows on CBS, I mean,

466
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: I can't watch them anymore. I watched the whole first

467
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 2: season at FBI, and by the end of it, I

468
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 2: just couldn't do it anymore. It's a great show, it's

469
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 2: an entertaining show, it's popular. It is the best free

470
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,959
Speaker 2: pr the FBI will ever get. But I remember watching

471
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 2: one show I did. I try to watch every now

472
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 2: and then, maybe once or two a year, and there

473
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: was a show on the International FBI International one and

474
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: they were in Italy, and during the first fifteen minutes

475
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: they killed with guns about seven people on Italian soil

476
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: and kept moving on, and I thought, oh, I can't

477
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 2: even I can't finish this, because you know, we're not

478
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 2: even allowed to carry guns in a foreign country as

479
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: an FBI agent assigned to you know, you know, Italy

480
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 2: or for so and they're killing people and no one

481
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 2: is putting handcuffs on them and taking them to jail.

482
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: So it's it's hard to watch. So if some little

483
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 2: boy or little girls someplaces watching that show and they say, oh,

484
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: I want to be an FBI agent, then I put

485
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: my hands up in surrender and say, keep going with

486
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,239
Speaker 2: your show. Well, we'll turn them around and get them

487
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: set them straight, you know once once they actually get

488
00:29:58,440 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 2: into the FBI.

489
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: Well, I cannot agree more. I know a lot of

490
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: times people will ask me, oh, I saw such and

491
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: such show where the CSI pulled up in a hummer

492
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: and got out in stilettos and fishnet hose and a

493
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: mini skirt, and then she and the lead detective had

494
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: like this chemistry. Yeah, And they'll ask me, is that accurate?

495
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, honey, that's dead on. Absolutely, that's

496
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: exactly what it's like. That's exactly what it's like. Every

497
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: day you dress you know, real sexy, and you fall

498
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: in love with the lead detective. That's it.

499
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 2: That's what we got there every day.

500
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: But you know, it's kind of funny because the first

501
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: female police officer I ever saw on TV was policewoman

502
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: Angie Dickinson.

503
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: Oh, Angie Dickenson. Yeah, I definitely saw that show fierce.

504
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: I thought she was unreal.

505
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 2: I wonder if you can still get that if it's

506
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 2: streaming anywhere it has to be, I'd love to watch

507
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 2: it again.

508
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: But do you remember when she went under cover? Her

509
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: and she would always just play these whether it was

510
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: a hooker or you know, some business owner, well whoever

511
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: it was, but she would just take on these characters,

512
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: and I thought, man working undercover, That's what I want

513
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: to do, you know, So again to your point, whatever

514
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: fuels that interest is a good thing.

515
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 2: We'll take it. It's a good thing. Yes, yes, again,

516
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: you know we'll have to set them straight. I you know,

517
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: we don't want them coming to you know, Quantico and

518
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 2: FBI Academy still believing that stuff. So hopefully they'll they'll

519
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: do their research.

520
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,479
Speaker 1: When can we kill people in Italy?

521
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 2: We don't. We've certainly done with them coming and doing that.

522
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: Are embarrassing themselves in any other way, any other way.

523
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: Mine Hunter was one of my favorite shows, and I

524
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: was just so sad that we only got two seasons

525
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 2: out of that because I thought that was very well done.

526
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: They didn't because another one of my cliches is that

527
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 2: FBI profilers are hunting down serial killers. You know that

528
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: they're in the in the dark alley or the moldy

529
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,959
Speaker 2: basement hunting down serial killers. And as we all know,

530
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 2: because you know, Julia Callie told you that when she

531
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: was on that they're consultants. You know, they really are

532
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 2: sitting at a desk most of the time and going

533
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: through the file and going through the interviews to see,

534
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 2: you know, what's done, what's been done. And the mind

535
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: Hunter show actually showed them as consultants working with you know,

536
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: the agents on the different squads, learning more and just

537
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 2: going out and doing their research and talking to serial killers.

538
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: I loved that show, and it ended in such a

539
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: way that you really want to know what happened. So

540
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 2: there's always these rumors every now and then about it

541
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 2: coming back for a third season. I hope it does,

542
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 2: because I really love that show.

543
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: Oh, I hope it does too. And you know, I

544
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: just got to meet John Douglas at Crome Con.

545
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 2: I've had him on my show. He's Oh, he's such

546
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: a wonderful guy.

547
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: Wonderful and I mean his stories in his cases, in

548
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: his background, I mean you could listen to him talk

549
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: for hours and hours and not even want to budge,

550
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: but you know, it was funny. I was telling him.

551
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: I had a professor when I was in college that

552
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: was working on the task force during the Missing and

553
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: Murdered children in Atlanta, and he talked about in Atlanta,

554
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: and he talked about when John Douglas came and was

555
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: helping with this profile, and that it was almost like

556
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: like he was an investigator, hard, no street level guy.

557
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: And then here comes this guy from the FBI saying

558
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: all these things like he's going to be kind of

559
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: weak and kind of pudgy and wears glasses and probably

560
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: when you arrest him, he's going to be wearing a

561
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: vest like from a suit. And he was like, what

562
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: kind of hocus pocus? Like, how could you possibly know

563
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: what this guy's going to be wearing? And you know,

564
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: at that time, and I think everybody's mind in Atlanta

565
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: when we finally saw Wayne Williams, that's not who we

566
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: had in mind, right, this monster was in our paid

567
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: about what this person should look like. And John Douglas,

568
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: of course was pretty dead owned and he was wearing

569
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: a vesk when they arrested him.

570
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 2: There you go, well, you know, one of the things

571
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: I love to do is you know, once a month

572
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 2: I watch a TV show or movie and then I

573
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 2: review it for teachable moments about the FBI policy and procedures.

574
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 2: Last month it was Breakpoint, Remember that movie, the surfing movie.

575
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, So I did that one. This month

576
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 2: it was Rob the Mob, a movie that has Ray

577
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 2: Romano and Andy Garcia in it. It's so much fun.

578
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 2: I used to look up movies as what they get

579
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 2: right and what they get wrong, and now looking at

580
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 2: it as finding teachable moments has brought the excitement of

581
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 2: watching the movie back to me because I don't have

582
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 2: to worry about, you know, critiquing it in a negative way,

583
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: by just using it to highlight something. And so I

584
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: really really enjoyed doing that.

585
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: And you know what, when Breakpoint came out with Patrick

586
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: Swayzee and they rob those banks with the president mask,

587
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: that Halloween Nixon was everywhere everywhere, and I thought to myself,

588
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 1: this is the night. Halloween night is when you should

589
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: rob something a gas station because there's five hundred of

590
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: them everywhere, up and down the street, streets, everybody mixing mask.

591
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 2: You'll find them, Go find them. He has a Mixon mask.

592
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 1: You can't missing exactly. That's what I thought about. I

593
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: was like, this is the time you should do it,

594
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:49,760
Speaker 1: no doubt.

595
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 2: Being in this true crime industry is I hate to

596
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 2: use the word fun because some of the cases, of

597
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 2: course that we talk about and we share are difficult,

598
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 2: and you know, they show the ugliness and the evil

599
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: that we have in the world. But what makes it

600
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 2: something that is when I use the word enjoyable, is

601
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 2: all of the people that really care and want to

602
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 2: be helpful and you know, want to be supportive. And

603
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 2: of course on my show, I talk about all kinds

604
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 2: of crimes. I'm not just talking about you know, the

605
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 2: missing and murdered. You know, I'm talking about espionage cases,

606
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 2: our frauds are cybercrime. You know. I try to do

607
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 2: a little bit of everything and keep a variety. But

608
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 2: just the reaction from the public, as you know, is

609
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 2: you know what keeps us motivated to keep doing this.

610
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'll tell it. I tell people all the time,

611
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: I love my job. It is enjoyable. It's exciting. I

612
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: can hear a sirene when I am on vacation in

613
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: another country and I'm like, I want to get in

614
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: the middle of.

615
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 2: Whatever it is, what's going on down there.

616
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: That's right. But I tell people you want me to

617
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: feel that way, because the day that I don't, I

618
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: need to quit doing it. You want me to work

619
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,479
Speaker 1: on your mama's case for twelve hours straight. You want

620
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 1: me to do that and then show up the next

621
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,879
Speaker 1: day and do that again until you've got some type

622
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 1: of justice that you deserve and your mama deserves. That's

623
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: the bottom line, and we have to have that level

624
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 1: of I love this. I want to be a part

625
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 1: of it. Like you, you're retired, but you're watching movies

626
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: and TV once a month, critiquing it for a teachable moment.

627
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: You've got the podcast, you're writing the books, and I

628
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 1: want to tell y'all again these books, the FBI Myths

629
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: and Misconceptions and Paid a Play. Hey, you got to

630
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: get these books. They are so well done, and you

631
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: want to talk about teachable moments, they're all through there.

632
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: And then the podcast. I know y'all already know. I

633
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: know y'all do, because I've had people tell me when

634
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: you go have Jerry wiinim's own show. Well, I got

635
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: Jerry Williams on my show.

636
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 2: Thank you.

637
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: You know, the retired FBI agent. Y'all know FBI retired

638
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: case file Review. Listen to the podcast if you haven't,

639
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: it's extraordinary. She is an artful storyteller and she's lived it.

640
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: That's the best part to me.

641
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: When people talk about true crime, I don't want them

642
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: to forget about the other you know, types of crimes

643
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 2: that are being perpetrated against. You know your your family,

644
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 2: your friends, uh, and you know your co workers. There's

645
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 2: a lot of prime out there that people are losing.

646
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 2: You know, their lives, their loved ones, and their livelihoods

647
00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: and life savings.

648
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate your career, I appreciate your devotion. It's

649
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 1: an honor to talk to you. It is an honor

650
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: for you to be a part of my Zone seven

651
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: because we are friends. And you ever need anything Atlanta.

652
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 2: You just holler, Okay, I got to get down to Atlanta.

653
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 2: I've never been. What I know.

654
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 1: We got to make that happen. We might have to

655
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: do a wine in crime with her.

656
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Has crime Con ever been in Atlanta?

657
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: Nope?

658
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 2: Made me to come to Atlanta. That absolutely. I missed

659
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 2: you at crime Con. I was not there this year

660
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 2: because there was a conflict. But I'll see you in

661
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 2: Denver next year.

662
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: I cannot wait, yep, I cannot wait for that to happen.

663
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: And it will be an honor to visit with you

664
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: and we'll catch up, y'all. I'm going to end Zone

665
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: seven the way that I always do with a quote.

666
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 1: With a gun, you can steal hundreds, but with a lie,

667
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:05,919
Speaker 1: you can steal millions. Retired agent Jerry Williams, FBI. I'm

668
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.