WEBVTT - Drilled Presents...Spill: Mary Annaise Heglar & Amy Westervelt on climate in this week's debate, Project 2025, and a whole lot more 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:12.680 Hadred listeners. We're back from a short summer break. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:14.000 Today we are. 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:18.560 Bringing you an episode from our sister podcast, Spill. That 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:22.840 is where we break down climate news, general trends, talk 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:27.240 to other writers, journalists, researchers about what they're doing, and 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.600 generally keep up to date on the climate story. Once 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.519 a month I bring on my former Hot Take co 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:36.840 host there Mary and a se Hegler, and we talk 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:39.760 about something that is coming up in a lot of 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:40.800 climate conversations. 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:42.320 This week we talked. 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:46.519 About Project twenty twenty five. You've probably heard of it. 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.240 It's hard to avoid. We thought it was worth talking 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:52.520 about that and climate policy in general in the lead 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:55.680 up to this week's debate. Check it out. Hope you 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:58.680 like it and subscribe if you do wherever you get 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:24.880 your podcasts. Mary, how's it going, Hey, Amy, how are you? 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:31.520 I'm good? I'm good. Yeah. Enjoying this election season? Oh 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:32.800 my god. No. 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:37.760 Actually, I keep waffling between like being glad I'm not 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:41.640 in the US during the election and then kind of 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.960 wanting to be there following everything more closely, like, but yeah, man, 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:46.399 it is. 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:49.680 It's just, you know, I'm in such a weird place 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:53.080 with it because on the one hand, I don't feel 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.080 and maybe this is just because something has broken deep 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.040 down inside of me. I don't feel the intense sense 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.760 of dred that I felt in twenty sixteen. It doesn't 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.800 feel like Donald Trump is eminent, and it felt that 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:08.440 way in twenty sixteen and in twenty twenty, so as 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.000 that demonstrates I have been wrong before in my life. 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:14.720 Does that mean that I'm like super crunk and excited 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:18.679 about Kamala Harris. No, but I don't know if I'm 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.840 capable of getting like that with any politician ever again. 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:27.639 But yeah, Donald Trump feels like I'm gonna be sent to. 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:28.959 A gulag, you know what I mean. 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:32.120 I've said enough shit publicly, and he's crazy enough that 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:35.920 feels like eventually he would get around to rounding up 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:40.920 people like me in bulogs or whatever. So yeah, it 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:44.639 doesn't feel like his victory is imminent. It also doesn't 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:48.600 feel like Kamala Harris is eminent or that she's going 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:51.760 to be fantastic either, Like I need this chick to 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.080 say she's gonna stop arming Israel. 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.040 Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.959 It's just she's definitely not She's saying the offices. 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:04.960 And I'm not happy about that. I'm not happy about 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:05.640 that at all. 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:07.960 Let me ask you something someone asked me recently, and 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.280 I was kind of like, oh, I think that's true. Actually, 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.960 they were saying that it seems like climate is just 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:18.800 not being discussed as much at all now as it was. 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.000 I feel like, actually the last election cycle it was 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:23.600 pretty from the center. But it's really, like I sent 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:25.640 from the conversation right now. 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.160 It's absent from the conversation. You barely heard about it 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:33.720 at all at the DNC, and even folks who I 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:37.440 know who are in the climate space are still just like, well, 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.720 this is not the time to push the administration. And 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:42.280 it's just like, see, this is why y'all are not 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:47.360 serious as a movement, and largely why I don't think 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:49.840 I see myself as part of the climate movement anymore. 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:56.320 Between this and just like utter spinelessness and the silence 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.760 on GAZA, lets me know that we don't want the 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:03.400 same things. And if that's the world that you want 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:06.360 to preserve, I don't want to be in that world. 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:08.880 Yeah. So yeah, I. 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.280 Just don't see myself as part of the broader movement anymore. 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:19.080 Damn, Mary, that's a big public announcement. I think you've 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:20.279 been saying it though. 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:22.800 I think I've town that through my action. 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:27.560 You know, like do I want a Liverpool future, Sure, 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:28.479 but I don't think they do. 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:29.680 Well. That's the thing is. 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:33.560 It's like, again, have heard people make this argument, and 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.520 I've seen it actually with people criticizing Greta Tunberg for 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:43.480 protesting in favor of Palestine, saying, you know, you're muddying 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:46.120 the waters. It's the same argument that's been made over 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:48.960 and over again. Right, don't muddy the waters on climate 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:55.040 with labor rights or civil rights, or reproductive justice. 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:57.880 Or with climates or you know what I mean. It's 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:01.640 just like, well, climates, these are the name people will 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:05.400 say in the immediate aftermath of a disaster, now it's 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:07.400 not the time to talk about climate change because we 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.080 don't want to insert politics. These are the same people 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:12.159 who will say during an election like this, it's not 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:14.560 the time to push the Democrats to talk about climate 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:16.120 because we don't want. 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:17.280 To muddy the election. 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:19.039 Just say, you don't want to do shit, you want 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:20.800 to go hide in your low closet. 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:21.560 Yeah. 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:24.800 It just it reminds me every time of the conversation 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.880 that we had with rev Yer would probably like two 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:31.320 three years ago now where he was talking about the 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:34.200 origins of the environmental movement and how it was all 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:36.000 the people that didn't want to be part of. 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:41.120 Any of the other social justice that history is alive 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:45.160 well or went away and having worked, you know, in 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:48.719 environmental nonprofits, the quote unquote big Greens. 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.159 I knew plenty of folks who were in those positions 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.400 because they wanted to go somewhere where they felt like 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.400 they could be unproblematic. Right, They felt like science was 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:01.719 just inherently unproblematic, and it's like, okay, girl, but you know, 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:03.640 once upon a time for anology with science. 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:06.920 So I don't know, we have a lot to talk 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:09.920 about today because we're going to talk about Project twenty 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:13.800 twenty five and all of the many different layers of 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:16.720 including some of the specific plans and are laid out, 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:20.039 but also how people are talking about it, how people 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.760 are and aren't understanding it, how the media is covering 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.560 all of that stuff. So we're going to take a 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:27.719 quick at break, and then we're going to get back 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:28.599 to that conversation. 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:32.040 This is Spill. I'm Amy Westervelt, I'm Marianna east Heckler. 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:32.880 We'll be back. 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:45.040 Okay, So this bitch is long as hell. Project twenty 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:46.960 five is like nine hundred pages. 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:49.919 I have the pdf open right now and it is 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.960 nine and twenty two pages long exactly. 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:57.479 And yeah, like so many of our listeners, likely we 0:06:57.560 --> 0:06:58.240 have shit to do. 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:00.120 So I have not read this entire thing. 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:04.000 I have read some of the parts that are relevant 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:08.000 for climate, in particular the EPA chapter, so I feel 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.640 like that's where we should start. And as I was 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:14.240 reading it, I have written down some questions for you, 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.280 starting with before we even get to the thing, that 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:23.560 the author is someone named Mandy m Gana Sakara. I 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.320 think that's how you say it, and I wrote down here, 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:28.600 who the fuck is this bitch? 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:41.040 Many many has like a very interesting background. 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:43.080 She is. 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:46.320 She doesn't have a science background that's important to know, 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:50.760 that's important, No environmental science background, no science background period. 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.760 She has like a polyscide degree and a law degree, 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:58.400 and she immediately went to work on Capitol Hill as 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:02.760 an aid for various senators. She is the person on 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:09.560 Senator Einhove's team who handed him the infamous snowball on 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:11.200 the floor of the Senate. So I don't know if 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:13.960 people remember this almost ten years ago now, where Senator 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.120 Einhove held up a snowball in the Senate and was. 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.960 Like, it's snowing outside. Global warming be happening? 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.920 What snowing outside that day? Or did they just happen 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:25.520 to have a snowball in the pre was. 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:26.760 Knowing it was knowing. 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:29.840 And there's this hilarious picture where like he's doing that 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:34.120 and Mandy is very smugly smiling behind him. She's so 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:38.200 pleased with herself. So yeah, she's been kind of in 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:42.880 the sort of climate denier network for a long time. 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:45.840 She went to work for an organization called the CO 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:50.960 two Coalition, which is this organization that basically argues the 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.160 more CO two is actually good for the planet because 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:57.640 we're going to grow more plants and that you know, yeah, okay, 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:01.600 sure some places won't farewell well, but other places will 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:03.960 and then it'll all balance out in the end. And 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:08.880 people are like being unnecessarily freaked out about CO two. 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:14.120 So like, just vibes, vibes, totally vibes. She worked for them. 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:15.560 I remember her. 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:20.480 She actually was the Republican witness who testified during the 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:26.920 first hearing that Congress had on climate disinformation, which was 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:32.000 in twenty nineteen, Jamie Raskin held this committee hearing about 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.000 disinformation and the oil companies, and she was the Republican witness, 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:40.040 and she gave this whole testimony, yeah, about how actually 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:43.600 we need fossil fuels for poor people in Africa and 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.000 all of this kind of stuff. So she's she's just 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:49.360 kind of like been awork, right. And then she also 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:54.560 was in the Trump administration and working at the EPA 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.040 under Trump, so she was the chief of staff for 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:02.480 EPA Administer Andrew Wheeler. So I would not be surprised 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:06.040 at all to see her put forth as a potential 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:14.160 ep administrator. She's a director the Independent Women's Forum Center 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:17.960 on Energy and Conservation. The Independent Women's Forum is this 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:21.680 organization that was kind of set up to do all 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:25.240 the things that Phyllis Schlaffley did. Phillip Schlaffley was the 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:29.600 conservative woman who fought against women's rights in the eighties. 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.160 That's kind of what the Independent Women's Forum is. It's like, 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:36.840 we need to put conservative ideas in the mouths of women, 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:38.599 and these are the women who do that. 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:39.679 Mm hm. 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:47.080 So anyway, that's who Mandy is, yes, and she's definitely 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:53.880 not someone who remotely has the sort of scientific background 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.319 that a lot of people think should be guiding the 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:59.800 Environmental Protection Agency. She has no scientific back. 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.000 Do anyone help her with us with any sort of 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:04.000 scientific background? 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:05.520 I don't think. 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:05.760 So. 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.079 There's not a lot of science in it, that's the thing. No, 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:13.200 it's a lot of science political out of it. So yeah, 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:14.560 let's talk about that. 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:17.800 So one thing I see over and over again is 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:24.280 basically removing scientists and science from decision making processes and 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:28.240 replacing them with political appointees. And they're doing this amy 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:32.679 because the EPA is already too political. 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.040 Because it's so crazy, right, It's like, it's like, the 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:37.480 EPA is too. 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:39.280 Political, so make it more political. 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:43.240 What you fight politics with politics? What are we doing? 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:44.600 I don't get it. 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:48.280 It's also strange because it's like, well, I guess that 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:51.360 works for you in a Trump administration, but then as 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:55.480 soon as anyone else is in power, isn't it a 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:59.640 problem for you? Again, I don't really understand the logic here. 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:00.720 I mean, just this sentence. 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:03.880 The challenge of creating a conservative EPA will be to 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:08.040 balance justified skepticism toward an agency that has long been 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.239 amenable to being co opted by the left for political 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:14.920 ends against the need to implement the agency's true function 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:18.840 protecting public health and environment and cooperation with the States. 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:20.480 So there's a. 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:26.080 Lot here about anything related to climate change, especially if 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:29.240 that thing related to climate change is related to climate justice. 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:34.880 That is leftist ideal ideology, politics or whatever. That is 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:37.760 not science, that's not proven, even though it is like 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:42.720 bulletproof science. At this point, they are characterizing it as 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.080 automatic politics exactly. 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:47.680 Yeah. Yeah. 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:52.240 And the interesting thing too is that so there's there's 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.080 a real problem on the right when they talk about 0:12:55.160 --> 0:13:00.480 environmental policy, because most conservative voters do actually care about 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:02.880 clean air and clean water, right, you kind of need 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:05.960 you always have to straddle this line of being anti 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.640 climate but pro clean air and clean water. But when 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.960 you read into the details of what she's suggesting in 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:15.439 this chapter, it's walking back a bunch of the science 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:19.400 based regulations on air pollution and a bunch of the 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:23.040 science based regulations on clean water that actually don't have 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:25.680 anything to do with climate and are. 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:27.120 Not political at all. 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.319 Sorry, there's a leaf blower in the background of my audio. 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:33.439 You guys are going to hear it. 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:40.480 It's so yeah. 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:45.160 Anyway, So it's this very strange piece of writing where 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:49.120 she's talking constantly about the importance of clean air and 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:54.160 clean water and public health while also suggesting eliminating the 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.200 things that provide clean air and clean water. 0:13:57.920 --> 0:13:59.000 Exactly. 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:03.720 I saw that in the clean water section, and one 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:05.480 of the things they want they said they want to 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:10.800 exclude speculative analysis regarding future potential harm, which would mean 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:13.960 they wait for the disaster to happen. So if I 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.760 come to you and bring you evidence that running this 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:20.600 pipeline underneath this body of water is really dangerous and 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.400 has a ninety percent chance of that oil getting into 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.000 the water and contaminating it, You're going to call that 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:33.400 speculative analysis, as opposed to everything will be done basically 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:34.760 after the fact, correct. 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:35.560 Yeah. 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:37.920 And then actually, we have a really good example of 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:41.640 why that's a bad idea in Standing Rock. So the 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:45.680 Dakode Access Pipeline was built despite the fact that the 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:50.120 environmental impact assessment was very much still up for debate. 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:54.480 Pipeline got built in the meantime. Now finally, like the 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.840 environmental impact assessment was only finalized earlier this year, and 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:03.720 the analysis says, oh, this is actually potentially dangerous. They've 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:07.800 now done an analysis on what could happen if they 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:11.800 remove the pipes, and they're like, oh, it could cause 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.000 all of this environmental disaster, so like we don't want 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.520 to do that, but it's like, yeah, the same exact 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.640 thing was possible when you put the pipeline in. 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.720 So one thing I've been thinking about a lot lately 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:30.720 is what the fuck happened to QAnon? And right is 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:36.400 this big book conspiracy and it kind of just seemed 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:40.440 like it dissipated. But I was reading an article about 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.440 it last night and they were talking about how basically 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.480 QAnon doesn't need to exist anymore because so much of 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:51.160 that ideology and just like even the language has been 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:56.000 adopted by the actual mainstream Republican party. 0:15:56.240 --> 0:16:01.360 And I got to say rest. So reading through this. 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:04.400 I felt like I heard a lot of a lot 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:06.840 of echoes of the q Andon sort of ideology. 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:08.640 So just take you through that. 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:11.720 There's a part where they're saying they want the EPA 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.640 to take a more supportive role toward local and state efforts, 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:17.760 building them up so they may lead in a meaningful fashion, 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.400 and that to me sounds like states' rights, but for 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:25.400 the environments there, they're demeaning the EPA's pursuit of a 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:30.560 globally focused agenda by participating in the Paris Agreement, by 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.280 giving globally to developing countries. 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:37.840 And that's just America first and globalism. 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:42.600 And then there's another part where they're talking about the 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.440 EPA should make public and take comment on all scientific 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:50.120 studies and analyzes that support regulatory decision making. And they're 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:54.400 talking about take comment from regular ass people like people 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:58.040 like Mandy who have no scientific background whatsoever, And that 0:16:58.160 --> 0:16:59.160 to me sounds. 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:02.920 Like do your own real arch, which is a huge, 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:05.760 big part of Q and I. So this is a 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:08.080 q Andon agenda. Yeah. 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:12.200 Yeah, the whole like taking public common thing is part 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.720 of a proposal that's been floated for a long time. 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:17.400 It's the transparency in. 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:22.040 Science or getting rid of secret science at the EKKA, 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:23.520 it's how it's like referred to. 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:31.480 That is a Steve molloy joint. Oh wow, that was 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:32.360 so smooth. 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:36.800 Ami sooo, he was a facult lobbyist for a long time. 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:39.960 He worked on all of these organizations that helped to 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:43.560 suppress the science on secondhand smoke, and then he went 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:47.119 to work for coal companies and he has had a 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:50.720 b in his bonnet about air pollution forever, and he's 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.399 been warning the right that if environmentalists and or the 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.600 left ever really get it together to do their messaging, 0:17:57.960 --> 0:17:59.080 air pollution. 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:00.960 Over for a. 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:04.840 Bunch of fossil fuels anyway, because combustion of fossil fuels 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:08.600 is what generates most particulate matter, right, So he's been 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:10.600 saying that for a long time. And he came up 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:15.360 with this proposal in the nineties and then like basically 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:19.040 dusted it off and included it in the Transition plan 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:21.719 for Trump for the EPA, and they almost got it 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.679 passed at the end of the Trump administration, it didn't 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:28.040 quite land, so they are bringing. 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:28.520 It back again. 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:32.840 And I think that, yes, scientific research should be as 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:36.679 transparent and open and like open to me and all 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.639 of that stuff as possible, right, But he tries to 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.240 kind of be like, oh, like they're doing a human 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.360 testing that they're keeping secret, and like because of that, 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:48.720 people are dying. There's this one woman who took part 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:52.200 in an air pollution study who did end up dying, 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.560 and the circumstances of her death are very shady, and 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.960 I think there probably is some liability for the people 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:01.359 who did that study or whatever, But he kind of 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:03.919 points to that as being indicative that there's a bunch 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:07.440 of shady and mysterious science happening at the EPA, and 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.479 he wants to institute rules that would basically make it 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:15.280 impossible for needs scientific study to be used for regulation. 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.720 It would have to meet such a high bar that 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.200 it would just make it impossible for the EPA to 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:22.280 regulate anything. 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:27.280 Which, by the way, the EPA already struggles to regulate 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:30.879 things that they fully know cause cancer. So I'm working 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:33.880 on a story right now about an herbicide. 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:40.119 That everyone knows causes Parkinson's and yet the USPA cannot 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:42.400 ban it because are. 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.719 They able to ban pfos? I mean, has that been 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:50.320 a big word. But now part of this Project twenty twenty. 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.280 Five thing, they want to roll back any restrictions on pithos. 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:58.240 But that took what twenty thirty years worth of litigation 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:03.560 and hundreds to thousands of people with cancer and all 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:05.399 sorts of other things. 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:06.240 To get that done. 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:10.119 The EPA is not good at regulating things that harm 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:10.760 the public. 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:15.760 Now we should talk just really fast about what pifos is, 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:21.239 in case anybody doesn't know. It's polychlora acol substances, and 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:23.440 it's in mad shit like maga's. 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:26.320 Like the stuff that makes your clothes waterproof or your 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:31.240 cookware nonstick. It's a coating that's used for a bunch 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.399 of different fabrics and products and stuff, and you know, 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:39.640 do Pullen and three m there again absolutely knew what 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:44.360 the potential in the stuff were. And in those cases, 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:47.560 it's not just that people are getting exposed through consumer products, 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:51.160 which they are, but also that the manufacturers that we're 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:55.480 making it were dumping shit in local waterways, So people's 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:57.440 water is contaminated. 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:00.760 Yeah, and we're running around with plastic all in our goods. 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.360 So there's that. Yeah. 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:08.040 So another thing that the Project twenty twenty five folks 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.280 want to do is they want to get any get 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:13.919 rid of anything dealing with environmental justice, like a fucking 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:14.960 heat seeking. 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:18.280 They really do. They're just like get rid of yeah. Yeah. 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:22.399 So the Biden administration had created in Environmental Justice and 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:25.720 Civil Rights office off the bat, they want to get 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:27.960 rid of that. They feel like that should be in 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:33.400 the office of the administrator and under the guide of a. 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:35.720 Political appointee because right go wrong. 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:38.840 And then they want to get rid of any funding 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:45.119 going to work that they deem superfluous or not really 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:47.520 related to the environment. We all know what that means. 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:51.159 That's environmental justice. And one of the main tools it 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.000 seems like they want to use is pause and review. 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:57.640 So Amy, can you talk about what pause and review is. 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:01.160 It's like a way to kill things without killing them. 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:03.520 It's like, oh, we're just going to pause this program 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:06.920 and review what kind of a return on investment we've 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:09.840 been getting, what the impact is, and then we'll come 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:12.679 back to it and decide if it should still have 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:15.240 the same budget or maybe it should be folded into 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:20.240 another agency or whatever. It's a very like diplomatic way 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:22.800 to get rid of something without saying that you're getting 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:23.160 rid of. 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:27.399 It, right, You just stall install install right. It's like 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:30.480 when you're trying to make plans with your friends and 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:32.600 they don't want to just outright and say I don't 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:33.640 want to go, so they just. 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:37.159 Maybe maybe. 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:42.040 Spot I don't know what you're talking about. Mary, all 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:47.399 your friends to you immediately. Okay, No, this is a 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:49.320 problem with being a millennial. I think I have a 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:51.600 lot of friends who get like overwhelmed by the thought 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:55.440 of making plans anyway, So yeah, it's it's a very 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:59.159 clear way of saying no without saying no. And so 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:01.920 this is gonna sounding my friends like me, I swear 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:02.800 that's totally ding. 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:05.280 I absolutely had those conversations. 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:10.280 Yea, right, does so just like, yeah, so that's what 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:13.440 they're planning to do with environmental justice. And then there's 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:16.399