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Speaker 1: Hadred listeners. We're back from a short summer break.

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Speaker 2: Today we are.

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Speaker 1: Bringing you an episode from our sister podcast, Spill. That

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Speaker 1: is where we break down climate news, general trends, talk

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Speaker 1: to other writers, journalists, researchers about what they're doing, and

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Speaker 1: generally keep up to date on the climate story. Once

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Speaker 1: a month I bring on my former Hot Take co

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Speaker 1: host there Mary and a se Hegler, and we talk

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Speaker 1: about something that is coming up in a lot of

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Speaker 1: climate conversations.

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Speaker 2: This week we talked.

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Speaker 1: About Project twenty twenty five. You've probably heard of it.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to avoid. We thought it was worth talking

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Speaker 1: about that and climate policy in general in the lead

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Speaker 1: up to this week's debate. Check it out. Hope you

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Speaker 1: like it and subscribe if you do wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcasts. Mary, how's it going, Hey, Amy, how are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm good? I'm good. Yeah. Enjoying this election season? Oh

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Speaker 2: my god. No.

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Speaker 1: Actually, I keep waffling between like being glad I'm not

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Speaker 1: in the US during the election and then kind of

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Speaker 1: wanting to be there following everything more closely, like, but yeah, man,

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Speaker 1: it is.

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Speaker 3: It's just, you know, I'm in such a weird place

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Speaker 3: with it because on the one hand, I don't feel

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Speaker 3: and maybe this is just because something has broken deep

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Speaker 3: down inside of me. I don't feel the intense sense

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Speaker 3: of dred that I felt in twenty sixteen. It doesn't

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Speaker 3: feel like Donald Trump is eminent, and it felt that

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Speaker 3: way in twenty sixteen and in twenty twenty, so as

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Speaker 3: that demonstrates I have been wrong before in my life.

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Speaker 3: Does that mean that I'm like super crunk and excited

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Speaker 3: about Kamala Harris. No, but I don't know if I'm

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Speaker 3: capable of getting like that with any politician ever again.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, Donald Trump feels like I'm gonna be sent to.

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Speaker 2: A gulag, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: I've said enough shit publicly, and he's crazy enough that

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Speaker 3: feels like eventually he would get around to rounding up

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Speaker 3: people like me in bulogs or whatever. So yeah, it

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Speaker 3: doesn't feel like his victory is imminent. It also doesn't

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Speaker 3: feel like Kamala Harris is eminent or that she's going

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Speaker 3: to be fantastic either, Like I need this chick to

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Speaker 3: say she's gonna stop arming Israel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: It's just she's definitely not She's saying the offices.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not happy about that. I'm not happy about

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Speaker 3: that at all.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you something someone asked me recently, and

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Speaker 1: I was kind of like, oh, I think that's true. Actually,

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Speaker 1: they were saying that it seems like climate is just

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Speaker 1: not being discussed as much at all now as it was.

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Speaker 1: I feel like, actually the last election cycle it was

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Speaker 1: pretty from the center. But it's really, like I sent

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Speaker 1: from the conversation right now.

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Speaker 3: It's absent from the conversation. You barely heard about it

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Speaker 3: at all at the DNC, and even folks who I

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Speaker 3: know who are in the climate space are still just like, well,

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Speaker 3: this is not the time to push the administration. And

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Speaker 3: it's just like, see, this is why y'all are not

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Speaker 3: serious as a movement, and largely why I don't think

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Speaker 3: I see myself as part of the climate movement anymore.

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Speaker 3: Between this and just like utter spinelessness and the silence

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Speaker 3: on GAZA, lets me know that we don't want the

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Speaker 3: same things. And if that's the world that you want

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Speaker 3: to preserve, I don't want to be in that world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, I.

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Speaker 3: Just don't see myself as part of the broader movement anymore.

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Speaker 1: Damn, Mary, that's a big public announcement. I think you've

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Speaker 1: been saying it though.

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Speaker 2: I think I've town that through my action.

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Speaker 3: You know, like do I want a Liverpool future, Sure,

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Speaker 3: but I don't think they do.

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Speaker 2: Well. That's the thing is.

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Speaker 1: It's like, again, have heard people make this argument, and

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Speaker 1: I've seen it actually with people criticizing Greta Tunberg for

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Speaker 1: protesting in favor of Palestine, saying, you know, you're muddying

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Speaker 1: the waters. It's the same argument that's been made over

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Speaker 1: and over again. Right, don't muddy the waters on climate

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Speaker 1: with labor rights or civil rights, or reproductive justice.

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Speaker 3: Or with climates or you know what I mean. It's

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Speaker 3: just like, well, climates, these are the name people will

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Speaker 3: say in the immediate aftermath of a disaster, now it's

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Speaker 3: not the time to talk about climate change because we

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Speaker 3: don't want to insert politics. These are the same people

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Speaker 3: who will say during an election like this, it's not

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Speaker 3: the time to push the Democrats to talk about climate

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Speaker 3: because we don't want.

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Speaker 2: To muddy the election.

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Speaker 3: Just say, you don't want to do shit, you want

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Speaker 3: to go hide in your low closet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It just it reminds me every time of the conversation

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Speaker 1: that we had with rev Yer would probably like two

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Speaker 1: three years ago now where he was talking about the

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Speaker 1: origins of the environmental movement and how it was all

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Speaker 1: the people that didn't want to be part of.

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Speaker 4: Any of the other social justice that history is alive

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Speaker 4: well or went away and having worked, you know, in

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Speaker 4: environmental nonprofits, the quote unquote big Greens.

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Speaker 3: I knew plenty of folks who were in those positions

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Speaker 3: because they wanted to go somewhere where they felt like

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Speaker 3: they could be unproblematic. Right, They felt like science was

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Speaker 3: just inherently unproblematic, and it's like, okay, girl, but you know,

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Speaker 3: once upon a time for anology with science.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know, we have a lot to talk

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Speaker 1: about today because we're going to talk about Project twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five and all of the many different layers of

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Speaker 1: including some of the specific plans and are laid out,

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Speaker 1: but also how people are talking about it, how people

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Speaker 1: are and aren't understanding it, how the media is covering

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Speaker 1: all of that stuff. So we're going to take a

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Speaker 1: quick at break, and then we're going to get back

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Speaker 1: to that conversation.

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Speaker 2: This is Spill. I'm Amy Westervelt, I'm Marianna east Heckler.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So this bitch is long as hell. Project twenty

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Speaker 3: five is like nine hundred pages.

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Speaker 1: I have the pdf open right now and it is

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Speaker 1: nine and twenty two pages long exactly.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, like so many of our listeners, likely we

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Speaker 3: have shit to do.

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Speaker 2: So I have not read this entire thing.

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Speaker 3: I have read some of the parts that are relevant

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Speaker 3: for climate, in particular the EPA chapter, so I feel

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Speaker 3: like that's where we should start. And as I was

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Speaker 3: reading it, I have written down some questions for you,

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Speaker 3: starting with before we even get to the thing, that

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Speaker 3: the author is someone named Mandy m Gana Sakara. I

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Speaker 3: think that's how you say it, and I wrote down here,

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Speaker 3: who the fuck is this bitch?

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Speaker 1: Many many has like a very interesting background.

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Speaker 2: She is.

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Speaker 1: She doesn't have a science background that's important to know,

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Speaker 1: that's important, No environmental science background, no science background period.

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Speaker 1: She has like a polyscide degree and a law degree,

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Speaker 1: and she immediately went to work on Capitol Hill as

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Speaker 1: an aid for various senators. She is the person on

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Speaker 1: Senator Einhove's team who handed him the infamous snowball on

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Speaker 1: the floor of the Senate. So I don't know if

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Speaker 1: people remember this almost ten years ago now, where Senator

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Speaker 1: Einhove held up a snowball in the Senate and was.

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Speaker 2: Like, it's snowing outside. Global warming be happening?

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Speaker 3: What snowing outside that day? Or did they just happen

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Speaker 3: to have a snowball in the pre was.

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Speaker 2: Knowing it was knowing.

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Speaker 1: And there's this hilarious picture where like he's doing that

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Speaker 1: and Mandy is very smugly smiling behind him. She's so

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Speaker 1: pleased with herself. So yeah, she's been kind of in

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Speaker 1: the sort of climate denier network for a long time.

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Speaker 1: She went to work for an organization called the CO

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Speaker 1: two Coalition, which is this organization that basically argues the

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Speaker 1: more CO two is actually good for the planet because

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Speaker 1: we're going to grow more plants and that you know, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: sure some places won't farewell well, but other places will

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Speaker 1: and then it'll all balance out in the end. And

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Speaker 1: people are like being unnecessarily freaked out about CO two.

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Speaker 1: So like, just vibes, vibes, totally vibes. She worked for them.

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Speaker 2: I remember her.

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Speaker 1: She actually was the Republican witness who testified during the

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Speaker 1: first hearing that Congress had on climate disinformation, which was

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Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, Jamie Raskin held this committee hearing about

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Speaker 1: disinformation and the oil companies, and she was the Republican witness,

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Speaker 1: and she gave this whole testimony, yeah, about how actually

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Speaker 1: we need fossil fuels for poor people in Africa and

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Speaker 1: all of this kind of stuff. So she's she's just

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Speaker 1: kind of like been awork, right. And then she also

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Speaker 1: was in the Trump administration and working at the EPA

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Speaker 1: under Trump, so she was the chief of staff for

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Speaker 1: EPA Administer Andrew Wheeler. So I would not be surprised

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Speaker 1: at all to see her put forth as a potential

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Speaker 1: ep administrator. She's a director the Independent Women's Forum Center

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Speaker 1: on Energy and Conservation. The Independent Women's Forum is this

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Speaker 1: organization that was kind of set up to do all

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Speaker 1: the things that Phyllis Schlaffley did. Phillip Schlaffley was the

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Speaker 1: conservative woman who fought against women's rights in the eighties.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of what the Independent Women's Forum is. It's like,

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Speaker 1: we need to put conservative ideas in the mouths of women,

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Speaker 1: and these are the women who do that.

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Speaker 2: Mm hm.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, that's who Mandy is, yes, and she's definitely

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Speaker 1: not someone who remotely has the sort of scientific background

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Speaker 1: that a lot of people think should be guiding the

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Speaker 1: Environmental Protection Agency. She has no scientific back.

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Speaker 2: Do anyone help her with us with any sort of

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Speaker 2: scientific background?

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Speaker 1: I don't think.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: There's not a lot of science in it, that's the thing. No,

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Speaker 1: it's a lot of science political out of it. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about that.

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Speaker 3: So one thing I see over and over again is

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Speaker 3: basically removing scientists and science from decision making processes and

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Speaker 3: replacing them with political appointees. And they're doing this amy

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Speaker 3: because the EPA is already too political.

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Speaker 5: Because it's so crazy, right, It's like, it's like, the

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Speaker 5: EPA is too.

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Speaker 1: Political, so make it more political.

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Speaker 2: What you fight politics with politics? What are we doing?

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Speaker 2: I don't get it.

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Speaker 1: It's also strange because it's like, well, I guess that

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Speaker 1: works for you in a Trump administration, but then as

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Speaker 1: soon as anyone else is in power, isn't it a

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Speaker 1: problem for you? Again, I don't really understand the logic here.

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Speaker 2: I mean, just this sentence.

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Speaker 3: The challenge of creating a conservative EPA will be to

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Speaker 3: balance justified skepticism toward an agency that has long been

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Speaker 3: amenable to being co opted by the left for political

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Speaker 3: ends against the need to implement the agency's true function

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Speaker 3: protecting public health and environment and cooperation with the States.

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Speaker 2: So there's a.

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Speaker 3: Lot here about anything related to climate change, especially if

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Speaker 3: that thing related to climate change is related to climate justice.

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Speaker 3: That is leftist ideal ideology, politics or whatever. That is

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Speaker 3: not science, that's not proven, even though it is like

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Speaker 3: bulletproof science. At this point, they are characterizing it as

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Speaker 3: automatic politics exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And the interesting thing too is that so there's there's

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Speaker 1: a real problem on the right when they talk about

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Speaker 1: environmental policy, because most conservative voters do actually care about

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Speaker 1: clean air and clean water, right, you kind of need

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Speaker 1: you always have to straddle this line of being anti

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Speaker 1: climate but pro clean air and clean water. But when

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Speaker 1: you read into the details of what she's suggesting in

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Speaker 1: this chapter, it's walking back a bunch of the science

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Speaker 1: based regulations on air pollution and a bunch of the

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Speaker 1: science based regulations on clean water that actually don't have

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Speaker 1: anything to do with climate and are.

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Speaker 2: Not political at all.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, there's a leaf blower in the background of my audio.

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Speaker 1: You guys are going to hear it.

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Speaker 2: It's so yeah.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, So it's this very strange piece of writing where

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Speaker 1: she's talking constantly about the importance of clean air and

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Speaker 1: clean water and public health while also suggesting eliminating the

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Speaker 1: things that provide clean air and clean water.

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Speaker 2: Exactly.

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Speaker 3: I saw that in the clean water section, and one

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Speaker 3: of the things they want they said they want to

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Speaker 3: exclude speculative analysis regarding future potential harm, which would mean

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Speaker 3: they wait for the disaster to happen. So if I

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Speaker 3: come to you and bring you evidence that running this

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Speaker 3: pipeline underneath this body of water is really dangerous and

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Speaker 3: has a ninety percent chance of that oil getting into

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Speaker 3: the water and contaminating it, You're going to call that

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Speaker 3: speculative analysis, as opposed to everything will be done basically

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Speaker 3: after the fact, correct.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then actually, we have a really good example of

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Speaker 1: why that's a bad idea in Standing Rock. So the

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Speaker 1: Dakode Access Pipeline was built despite the fact that the

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Speaker 1: environmental impact assessment was very much still up for debate.

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Speaker 1: Pipeline got built in the meantime. Now finally, like the

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Speaker 1: environmental impact assessment was only finalized earlier this year, and

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Speaker 1: the analysis says, oh, this is actually potentially dangerous. They've

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Speaker 1: now done an analysis on what could happen if they

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Speaker 1: remove the pipes, and they're like, oh, it could cause

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Speaker 1: all of this environmental disaster, so like we don't want

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Speaker 1: to do that, but it's like, yeah, the same exact

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Speaker 1: thing was possible when you put the pipeline in.

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Speaker 3: So one thing I've been thinking about a lot lately

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Speaker 3: is what the fuck happened to QAnon? And right is

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Speaker 3: this big book conspiracy and it kind of just seemed

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Speaker 3: like it dissipated. But I was reading an article about

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Speaker 3: it last night and they were talking about how basically

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Speaker 3: QAnon doesn't need to exist anymore because so much of

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Speaker 3: that ideology and just like even the language has been

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Speaker 3: adopted by the actual mainstream Republican party.

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Speaker 2: And I got to say rest. So reading through this.

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Speaker 3: I felt like I heard a lot of a lot

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Speaker 3: of echoes of the q Andon sort of ideology.

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Speaker 2: So just take you through that.

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Speaker 3: There's a part where they're saying they want the EPA

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Speaker 3: to take a more supportive role toward local and state efforts,

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Speaker 3: building them up so they may lead in a meaningful fashion,

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Speaker 3: and that to me sounds like states' rights, but for

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Speaker 3: the environments there, they're demeaning the EPA's pursuit of a

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Speaker 3: globally focused agenda by participating in the Paris Agreement, by

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Speaker 3: giving globally to developing countries.

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Speaker 2: And that's just America first and globalism.

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Speaker 3: And then there's another part where they're talking about the

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Speaker 3: EPA should make public and take comment on all scientific

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Speaker 3: studies and analyzes that support regulatory decision making. And they're

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Speaker 3: talking about take comment from regular ass people like people

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Speaker 3: like Mandy who have no scientific background whatsoever, And that

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Speaker 3: to me sounds.

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Speaker 2: Like do your own real arch, which is a huge,

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Speaker 2: big part of Q and I. So this is a

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Speaker 2: q Andon agenda. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole like taking public common thing is part

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Speaker 1: of a proposal that's been floated for a long time.

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Speaker 2: It's the transparency in.

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Speaker 1: Science or getting rid of secret science at the EKKA,

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Speaker 1: it's how it's like referred to.

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Speaker 2: That is a Steve molloy joint. Oh wow, that was

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Speaker 2: so smooth.

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Speaker 1: Ami sooo, he was a facult lobbyist for a long time.

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Speaker 1: He worked on all of these organizations that helped to

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Speaker 1: suppress the science on secondhand smoke, and then he went

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Speaker 1: to work for coal companies and he has had a

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Speaker 1: b in his bonnet about air pollution forever, and he's

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Speaker 1: been warning the right that if environmentalists and or the

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Speaker 1: left ever really get it together to do their messaging,

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Speaker 1: air pollution.

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Speaker 2: Over for a.

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Speaker 1: Bunch of fossil fuels anyway, because combustion of fossil fuels

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Speaker 1: is what generates most particulate matter, right, So he's been

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Speaker 1: saying that for a long time. And he came up

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Speaker 1: with this proposal in the nineties and then like basically

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Speaker 1: dusted it off and included it in the Transition plan

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Speaker 1: for Trump for the EPA, and they almost got it

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Speaker 1: passed at the end of the Trump administration, it didn't

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Speaker 1: quite land, so they are bringing.

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Speaker 2: It back again.

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Speaker 1: And I think that, yes, scientific research should be as

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Speaker 1: transparent and open and like open to me and all

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Speaker 1: of that stuff as possible, right, But he tries to

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Speaker 1: kind of be like, oh, like they're doing a human

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Speaker 1: testing that they're keeping secret, and like because of that,

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Speaker 1: people are dying. There's this one woman who took part

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Speaker 1: in an air pollution study who did end up dying,

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Speaker 1: and the circumstances of her death are very shady, and

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Speaker 1: I think there probably is some liability for the people

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Speaker 1: who did that study or whatever, But he kind of

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Speaker 1: points to that as being indicative that there's a bunch

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Speaker 1: of shady and mysterious science happening at the EPA, and

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Speaker 1: he wants to institute rules that would basically make it

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Speaker 1: impossible for needs scientific study to be used for regulation.

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Speaker 1: It would have to meet such a high bar that

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Speaker 1: it would just make it impossible for the EPA to

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Speaker 1: regulate anything.

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Speaker 6: Which, by the way, the EPA already struggles to regulate

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Speaker 6: things that they fully know cause cancer. So I'm working

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Speaker 6: on a story right now about an herbicide.

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Speaker 1: That everyone knows causes Parkinson's and yet the USPA cannot

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Speaker 1: ban it because are.

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Speaker 2: They able to ban pfos? I mean, has that been

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Speaker 2: a big word. But now part of this Project twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: Five thing, they want to roll back any restrictions on pithos.

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Speaker 1: But that took what twenty thirty years worth of litigation

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Speaker 1: and hundreds to thousands of people with cancer and all

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Speaker 1: sorts of other things.

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Speaker 2: To get that done.

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Speaker 1: The EPA is not good at regulating things that harm

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Speaker 1: the public.

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Speaker 3: Now we should talk just really fast about what pifos is,

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Speaker 3: in case anybody doesn't know. It's polychlora acol substances, and

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Speaker 3: it's in mad shit like maga's.

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Speaker 1: Like the stuff that makes your clothes waterproof or your

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Speaker 1: cookware nonstick. It's a coating that's used for a bunch

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Speaker 1: of different fabrics and products and stuff, and you know,

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Speaker 1: do Pullen and three m there again absolutely knew what

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Speaker 1: the potential in the stuff were. And in those cases,

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Speaker 1: it's not just that people are getting exposed through consumer products,

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Speaker 1: which they are, but also that the manufacturers that we're

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Speaker 1: making it were dumping shit in local waterways, So people's

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Speaker 1: water is contaminated.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're running around with plastic all in our goods.

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Speaker 2: So there's that. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So another thing that the Project twenty twenty five folks

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Speaker 3: want to do is they want to get any get

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Speaker 3: rid of anything dealing with environmental justice, like a fucking

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Speaker 3: heat seeking.

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Speaker 2: They really do. They're just like get rid of yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So the Biden administration had created in Environmental Justice and

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Speaker 3: Civil Rights office off the bat, they want to get

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Speaker 3: rid of that. They feel like that should be in

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Speaker 3: the office of the administrator and under the guide of a.

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Speaker 2: Political appointee because right go wrong.

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Speaker 3: And then they want to get rid of any funding

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Speaker 3: going to work that they deem superfluous or not really

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Speaker 3: related to the environment. We all know what that means.

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Speaker 3: That's environmental justice. And one of the main tools it

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Speaker 3: seems like they want to use is pause and review.

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Speaker 3: So Amy, can you talk about what pause and review is.

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Speaker 1: It's like a way to kill things without killing them.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh, we're just going to pause this program

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Speaker 1: and review what kind of a return on investment we've

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Speaker 1: been getting, what the impact is, and then we'll come

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Speaker 1: back to it and decide if it should still have

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Speaker 1: the same budget or maybe it should be folded into

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Speaker 1: another agency or whatever. It's a very like diplomatic way

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Speaker 1: to get rid of something without saying that you're getting

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Speaker 1: rid of.

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Speaker 3: It, right, You just stall install install right. It's like

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Speaker 3: when you're trying to make plans with your friends and

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Speaker 3: they don't want to just outright and say I don't

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Speaker 3: want to go, so they just.

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Speaker 2: Maybe maybe.

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Speaker 5: Spot I don't know what you're talking about. Mary, all

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Speaker 5: your friends to you immediately. Okay, No, this is a

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Speaker 5: problem with being a millennial. I think I have a

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Speaker 5: lot of friends who get like overwhelmed by the thought

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Speaker 5: of making plans anyway, So yeah, it's it's a very

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Speaker 5: clear way of saying no without saying no. And so

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Speaker 5: this is gonna sounding my friends like me, I swear

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Speaker 5: that's totally ding.

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Speaker 1: I absolutely had those conversations.

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Speaker 3: Yea, right, does so just like, yeah, so that's what

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Speaker 3: they're planning to do with environmental justice. And then there's

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Speaker 3: also all these parts where they just explicitly want to

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Speaker 3: get the fuck rid of it.

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Speaker 2: They feel like it's reverse racism.

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Speaker 1: They actually mentioned that, And that's interesting too, because that

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Speaker 1: is a whole thing that's underway as well.

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Speaker 2: I keep meaning to write.

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Speaker 1: About this because I feel like a lot of people

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Speaker 1: are not seeing how much that is a continuation of

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Speaker 1: an effort that started in the eighties and nineties.

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Speaker 2: With some of the same people.

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Speaker 1: And the only reason I know that is because I

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Speaker 1: worked on this show, This Land with Rebecca and Nagel,

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Speaker 1: and we were looking into these constitutional challenges to the

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Speaker 1: Indian Child Welfare Act, and they were being brought by

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Speaker 1: a group of different attorneys, and there were all of

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Speaker 1: these organizations that were filing briefs and it was all

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Speaker 1: a lot of the same people that are involved in

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Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five. Actually, it was like Heritage and

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Speaker 1: Cato and all of these like right wing think tanks,

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Speaker 1: and the more we dug into it, the more we realized, like,

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Speaker 1: oh okay, these guys have been trying to do this

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Speaker 1: for a really long time. And it's interesting because in

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Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties it was actually Clarence Thomas helped

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Speaker 1: them develop a better strategy because he was like, you

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Speaker 1: guys need to stop with the reverse racism thing. You

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Speaker 1: sound like whiny white boys.

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Speaker 2: Was he on Supreme Court at this point.

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Speaker 1: No, he was working for the Equal Opportunity Commission, gotcha right, right?

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Speaker 1: This is before Anita Hill and before Anita Hill where

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Speaker 1: he worked with a Neda Hill.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh okay, this is during Anita Hill.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So he was like, you guys need to you

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Speaker 1: need you need a better strategy. He basically was like,

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Speaker 1: make it about equal opportunity on a reverse racism because

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Speaker 1: that's never play well. And they did, and it was

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Speaker 1: a very successful strategy. That is how they rolled back

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Speaker 1: a bunch of civil rights games.

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Speaker 2: And now they've kind of gone back.

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Speaker 1: To the old school this is racist against white people things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In all these cases, this guy Stephen Miller, who was

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Speaker 1: you know, Trump's chief of staff has a new legal organization,

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Speaker 1: and they're going after things like there was a venture

444
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: fund that had a contest for black women founders and

445
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: they've gone after them.

446
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 3: Mm hmmm for being discribed. It doesn't surprise me at all.

447
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 3: That doesn't surprise me at all. I could see them, you know,

448
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 3: really going after anybody who's ever worked in DEI. Yes,

449
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 3: and in their next or any organization that's ever had

450
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 3: a d they offer.

451
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: They want they want to get rid of DEI entirely.

452
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: They want to get rid of any kind of any

453
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: kind of straightforward attempts to address racial inequality, that's it.

454
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 3: Or any kind of inequality, right, yeah, exactly exactly so,

455
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 3: and you see that in this EPA chapter too, where

456
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 3: it's just like, oh, why should these communities get special

457
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 3: treatment whatever. Yeah, And the other thing that they really

458
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 3: want to get rid of or newter is the Inflation

459
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 3: Reduction Act.

460
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, so can always you talk about that.

461
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: They're basically like, well, it's a spending bill, so you

462
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: don't actually have to spend. That's their strategy is they're like,

463
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: you could just not.

464
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 2: Which, yeah, if they're going on there, right exactly, that

465
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 2: is a flaw in the IRA.

466
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: That's been pointed out time and time again, is that

467
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: it doesn't it's all spend no regulation, there's no there's

468
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: absolutely nothing that requires that money.

469
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 2: To be spent. Mm hmmm.

470
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: I think they will struggle with some of those programs,

471
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 1: and they're going to have a real interesting juggling act

472
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 1: to do because the fossil fuel industry loves the IRA

473
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 1: because they have figured out a way to fund carbon capture.

474
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 4: Sure.

475
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, all these bullshit hydrogen hubs. It's a real bonanza

476
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: for them.

477
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.

478
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: It's like very sy Yeah, so they're kind of struggle

479
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 1: to I don't know, like they're going to have to

480
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: find ways to shut down all the parts they don't

481
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: like and keep the ones they do like going.

482
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 3: But you know, yeah, I mean, obviously I would give

483
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 3: this chapter an F is bad.

484
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: I don't want we could talk about it forever.

485
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 3: But there's also other ways that the environment shows up

486
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 3: through projects twenty twenty five in particular, we run to

487
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 3: talk about NOAH, the National Oceanica Atmospheric Administrative Administration Administration.

488
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing that gives us our weather reports.

489
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: NOA is the other one that, just like the environmental

490
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: justice stuff, they're very explicit about just getting rid of it.

491
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: They're like, there's a couple things in there, those can

492
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: be folded into other agencies and other on.

493
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 2: This shouldn't exist.

494
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 3: So Noah is the reason why I know whether or

495
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 3: not there's a tropical wave that could turn into a

496
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 3: hurricane and can start planning my evacuation without Noah, as

497
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 3: I understand it, like they could privatize weather reports, so

498
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: creating right now we can all see the weather for free,

499
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 3: as in as much details we want to. That actually

500
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: is a space where like the science is open and

501
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 3: transparent and open for public comment. Like Noah is a

502
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 3: perfect example of what they're saying they want at the EPA.

503
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 3: And then it doesn't but they want to kill Noah

504
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 3: and get rid of the exactly that function.

505
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 2: Yeah they're talking about.

506
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: They actually make this argument that weather forecasts from private

507
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: companies are more reliable than the ones from Noah, which

508
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: is weird because I'm reasonably certain that a lot of

509
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: the private services use Noah data.

510
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 3: Those private services would have to pay for Noah's data,

511
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 3: or they would have to inducted themselves.

512
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly, like take over those satellites themselves, or

513
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, anyway, then they also talk about they

514
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: actually specifically talk about the hurricane monitoring, so the National

515
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: Hurricane Centers. They say that it provides an important service.

516
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: But this is what they say in this chapter, data

517
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: collected by the Department should be presented neutrally without adjustments

518
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: intended to support anyone's side in the climate debate. What

519
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: the fact are they taught about this idea is not

520
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,239
Speaker 1: at all subtle insinuation that they're manipulating the data to

521
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: make it look like there's something to be said about

522
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: the link between hurricanes and climate, and it's like, oh

523
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: my god, Okay. So really, basically, what they're saying is

524
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: the only way that any of Noah's current activities can

525
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: can to you or should continue is if they're not

526
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: allowed to attach any of it to climate. And then

527
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: they're also saying to fold a bunch of it into

528
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: the US Coast Guard, the US Geological Survey, the entire

529
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: Office of Oceanic and Atmospheric Research, you want to get

530
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: rid of because they say it's the source of much

531
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: of Noah's quote climate alarmism.

532
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 3: My goodness, they're alarmists about climate alarmism.

533
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: Data collection is very important and necessary, but that can

534
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: just be collected and then like made available to companies.

535
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 2: That's kind of all we need.

536
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: To do their general approach.

537
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: Am I correct?

538
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 3: And assuming this could create a world where there is

539
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 3: a hurricane coming and we don't.

540
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: Know absolutely, I think it could certainly lead to that.

541
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: Even though they're saying like this that this public service

542
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: component is important and that they would they would basically

543
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: want like the Coast Guard to take that over. But like,

544
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: but then there's nothing in here about like okay, but

545
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,719
Speaker 1: there's already a system in place. There's a whole system

546
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: in place and it works pretty well. Like yeah, what's

547
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: the plan for the Coastguard taking that over without the

548
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: step that runs that system?

549
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: Or you know what I mean.

550
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: It's just sort of like, I just I don't know

551
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: why you would want to up and in an emergency

552
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: alert service in the right And.

553
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I.

554
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 3: I shudder to think what they want to do with

555
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 3: FEMA and with disaster response because you know, and we

556
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,959
Speaker 3: we've talked about this one on one before, but Project

557
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five is alive and well in places like Florida, Louisiana, Texas, right,

558
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 3: And I'm thinking specifically of Texas and Houston and what

559
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 3: happened during Hurricane Beryl, which came aground as a Category

560
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 3: one and shut a major city day and flooded a

561
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 3: major city for days at a time, and it barely

562
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 3: made any sort of news because you know, there's so

563
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 3: much chaos going on. But also like, you don't see

564
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 3: this governor who's a media hog. You don't see him

565
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 3: out there talking about it. You don't see him really

566
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 3: even caring about what happens in Houston. And so to me,

567
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 3: that feels like, you know, a portal to what we

568
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 3: could expect for a disaster response.

569
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just like just like briefly scanning for FEMA

570
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: mentions here. So two things that I'm just like, oh

571
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: my god.

572
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: Why.

573
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: One is that they want to basically bring the private

574
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: sector in to the post disaster loan.

575
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a bad idea, but the insurance companies are already

576
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 3: like fuck New Orleans.

577
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. I'm just like, uh what.

578
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: And then they also are talking about moving FEMA into

579
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: the Apartment of the Interior or possibly the Department of Transportation,

580
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: possibly like combining it with another agency, So that that

581
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: to me sounds like downsizing FEMA. Which yeah, I'm like,

582
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: at a time when disasters are increasing, you know, right,

583
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: so downsized FEMA and disasters are increasing, they want to

584
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:27,239
Speaker 1: take the loan governance thing away from the SBA and

585
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: put it in the hands of private sector.

586
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 2: So you're gonna end.

587
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: Up with totally predatory post disaster.

588
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 3: CATO exactly and by design. Yeah, but by intricate design,

589
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 3: not an accident. They absolutely are doing it on purpose.

590
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,719
Speaker 3: This isn't a case of we couldn't have anticipated that

591
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 3: these things would happen. We know what climate change is

592
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 3: going to look like. Hurricane Katrina is in the rear

593
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 3: view mirror. We know what happens when you don't prepare

594
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 3: for a disaster. We know what happens when you leave people,

595
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 3: you know, to fin for themselves with no sort of

596
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 3: order whatsoever.

597
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 2: So they're doing it on purpose.

598
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 3: They looked at Hurricane Katrina's response and saw inspiration and

599
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 3: not horror.

600
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

601
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: No, they refer to FEMA's preparedness grants in this project

602
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: twenty trive document.

603
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 2: As quote pork First states, I'm surprised they didn't call

604
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 2: it soy.

605
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 3: I just you know, and it reminds me of I know,

606
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 3: I said earlier I don't know if I'm.

607
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,959
Speaker 2: Part of the climate movement anymore, but like the whole reason.

608
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 3: I feel like I got involved in the first place

609
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 3: was you see those images from Katrina. You see that

610
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 3: those people look like you, and that is what is

611
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 3: waiting on me and climate change.

612
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and lo and behold here we are.

613
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 3: And we have folks in the climate space being like,

614
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 3: now it's not the time to push on climate change.

615
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 3: So enserious, So I'm serious.

616
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Another component to this which was really like you

617
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 1: kind of see hints of it throughout this document, but

618
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: then in the undercover reporting that the Center for Climate

619
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: Reporting did where they had someone sort of pose as

620
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: a prospective donor to Project twenty twenty five and get

621
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: more detail on their plans, definitely a huge erosion in

622
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: civil rights and a militarized approach to dealing with protests.

623
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: So they in that in that right the right up

624
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 1: of like their meeting with the Project tween twenty five people,

625
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 1: the Center for Climate Reporting wrote. Later, a reporter asked

626
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 1: what will happen if there are left wing protests in

627
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: response to deportations, which is this is another there's a

628
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 1: I mean every I mean, they're very I want to

629
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: deportes pro full like anti immigration thing as well, and

630
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 1: lots of people being deported.

631
00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 3: They're talking about reporting deporting pro Palestine protesters, and it's like,

632
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 3: where would.

633
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: They deport me to? Yeah, yeah, it's just Africa in general.

634
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: Wiperpol Yeah, I guess this is the kind of thinking

635
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: that that is happening here. So they asked them, okay,

636
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 1: but what if there were protests and response to the deportations,

637
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: and they said the plan would be to bring in

638
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: the military. And the person who's like speaking to them

639
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: from Project twenty twenty five says, I think they would

640
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: attempt a color revolution.

641
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,919
Speaker 2: What is a color revolution? Do I mean a race war?

642
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 2: I think they mean a race war. Yeah.

643
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 1: He goes off to say, where they have riots, where

644
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: they have everything you've seen in other countries. George Floyd

645
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: obviously was not about race. It was about destabilizing the

646
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: Trump administration.

647
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 3: Off.

648
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: Our view is that the president has the ability, both

649
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,919
Speaker 1: along the border and elsewhere to maintain law and order

650
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: with the military.

651
00:36:58,400 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 2: Okay.

652
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 3: So that is disturbing, and that is the point where, like,

653
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 3: you know, when Joe Biden was still the nominee and

654
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 3: just incredibly hawkish for Israel. Books were saying that Trump

655
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 3: and Biden are like what and what when it comes

656
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 3: to Palestine, And I get it, I really really get it.

657
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 3: Joe Biden like heartbreaking when it comes to Gaza. But

658
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 3: also I do think Trump would be worse in the

659
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 3: sense that he would criminalize the protest again protests, right,

660
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 3: not just even criminalize it. I think it would like

661
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 3: make it a death sentence, you know, like shoot on

662
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 3: site type of situation, because he wanted to do that

663
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 3: several times during his prey and the military wouldn't do it.

664
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 3: And now I think, you know, he's learned fine. Lackey's

665
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 3: so fine, yes, men, And there are plenty of them.

666
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 3: There are plenty of them out there. So I don't know.

667
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 3: It's just like like I was saying at the beginning,

668
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 3: like I'm not you know, google Gaga over Kamala Harris.

669
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 3: I definitely see the problems, but I have to admit

670
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 3: that Trump is just untenable, Yeah, just untimable. And I

671
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 3: don't I also don't think that means that we have

672
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 3: to that Kamala Harris is above criticism.

673
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: No. I find that whole idea that you cannot criticize

674
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: the Democrats at all, because that's basically giving the election

675
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: to Trump.

676
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 2: To see that at all. Yeah, just am like a

677
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: lot of people think that.

678
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: I know, I know in fact, actually it's because I

679
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: don't want to see another Trump presidency that I want

680
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: the Democrats to improve, because I know that that will

681
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: bring in more voters.

682
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 3: You know, right. And I think where I'm at is

683
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 3: I can bring myself to vote for Kamala Harris, but

684
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 3: I cannot bring myself to campaign. I definitely can't bring

685
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 3: myself to like chastise anyone else who's like, yeah, she's

686
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 3: got too much blood on her hands for me. What

687
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 3: am I supposed to say to that? Yeah, you know,

688
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 3: like I don't see the blood too, you.

689
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: Know what I mean, certainly not trying to distance herself

690
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: from it.

691
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 3: I haven't heard her much since the DNC. I did

692
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 3: not enjoy her speech where she starts talking about her

693
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 3: support for Israel. But what was very noticeable to me

694
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 3: is like when she talks about Gaza. First of all,

695
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 3: I noticed the introduction of the passive voice. I didn't

696
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 3: like that, But I also noticed that those same words

697
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 3: coming out of the mouth of Joe Biden would have

698
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 3: been just like utterly shocking and like would have sent

699
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 3: us all into a tail span like him actually acknowledging

700
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,479
Speaker 3: the suffering of Gaza in the detail that she did

701
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 3: would have been very shocking. So yeah, I do think

702
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 3: we have to say that that is it's not nearly enough,

703
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 3: not even a fraction of enough, but that is a difference.

704
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 3: So that does feel like a little bit of a

705
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 3: distance to me.

706
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 2: It's not nearly enough. I have to keep saying that.

707
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 3: And what I also noticed is that when she's articulating

708
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 3: the suffering of the Palestinians, that is when she gets

709
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 3: more of a response from the crowd. And so I

710
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 3: just think about what would it have been like if

711
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 3: they had gotten a Palestinian speaker, like they would have

712
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 3: gotten a standing ovation, I think, And what would that

713
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 3: have looked like on.

714
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 2: All of those cameras.

715
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, because this is not a fringe issue, and this

716
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 3: isn't even a divisive issue.

717
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 2: I refuse to pronounce divisive as divisive. I'm so sorry.

718
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 2: I can't do. It's divisive too.

719
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 3: Exactly divisive And anyway, it's not a divisive issue. The

720
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 3: vast majority of Democrats, the vast majority of people in

721
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 3: this country want to see spire.

722
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 2: This is not controversial. Yeah, that's right, even people kids.

723
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: I feel like it was.

724
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: Pretty telling when Amy Schumer was like, never said, I'm

725
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 1: not for a ceasefire. I was like, I'm sorry.

726
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 3: We needed to do something about all of these amys.

727
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 1: I know, I'm sorry for all the amies.

728
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 3: We gotta like, until we figure out what's going on, Yeah,

729
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 3: pause and review on the amies.

730
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: Some work to do. That's true, it's true.

731
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 3: But I did want to ask about the Center for

732
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 3: Climate Reporting. So they used some tactics that a lot

733
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 3: of American journalists don't use. Is basically like a sting operation.

734
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 3: You're journalists, Yeah, famously, So what are your thoughts on that?

735
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: Actually, I this The whole way that I met the

736
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: guys who run the Center for Climate Reporting was that

737
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 1: I kind of the first time that they did a

738
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: big sting was actually back when they were working for

739
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: Unearthed and they did the Exxon lobbyists sting. So they

740
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: posed as you know, someone who is hiring, and they

741
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: did interviews with these guys and they just like spilled

742
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: all the beans and yeah, at the time, all of

743
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 1: it was really good. Yeah, And at the time, a

744
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: bunch of campaigners oh, like, why can't our journalists do

745
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: stuff like this? And I was like, well, that's you know,

746
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: like activists can get away with that, but journalists can't

747
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: because we would be sued this, that, and the other.

748
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: And Lawrence Carter, who runs the Center for Timer Reporting,

749
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: was like, excuse me, but like I'm a journalist and

750
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. So actually I had him on to

751
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 1: Drill to talk about it because I was like, oh,

752
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: tell me more. So he kind of walked me through

753
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: the history of using that tactic in the UK and

754
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,919
Speaker 1: that they have a pretty solid kind of checklist for

755
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: what warrants a situation where that kind of tactic should

756
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 1: be used, and then how do you do it in

757
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: an ethical way and all of that kind of stuff.

758
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 2: And I started.

759
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 1: Looking into it more and I was like, actually, US

760
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: journalists did used to do that affair of bit and

761
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: it was largely Herb Schmertz and mobile oil that put

762
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 1: an end.

763
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 2: To it, and always a roughly to Herb all roads. Yeah.

764
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: Yes, there's like there's some archival footage of him during

765
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: this sixty minute panel where he's ranting, oh, you know,

766
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: it's it's unethical and journalist shouldn't do it and this

767
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: to the other and then could it hurt and several

768
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 1: other corporations too, not Justble, but herb was definitely like,

769
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: you know, the guy rallying everything around this really got

770
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: together and filed some lawsuits against organizations that were doing

771
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 1: it and kind of kicked up enough of a fuss

772
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 1: and made it clear that there would be expensive legal

773
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 1: threats to the point where it almost never.

774
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,240
Speaker 2: Happens in US media anymore.

775
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: But then you've got like the Project very toss guy

776
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 1: who does it on the right, and like, yeah, he

777
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: does it in a really unethical and very sloppy way.

778
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 1: So that's the only reference point people today have is.

779
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 2: Like that guy.

780
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: So they see that stick and they go like, oh,

781
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: that's not you know whatever. But I think there is

782
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: an argument to be made for and this, this is

783
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: a good example of like how else would we get

784
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 1: someone from Project twenty twenty five to honestly lay out

785
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: what they're trying to do.

786
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 3: I mean, I honestly feel like maybe they should do

787
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 3: it for polling right, because Republicans are far less likely

788
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 3: to respond to a poll, which is why, like, I

789
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 3: don't know, I've been complaining about this on Twitter and

790
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 3: no one's listening, But we're seeing all of this news

791
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 3: about like Harris is ahead in the polls and blah

792
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 3: blah bla blah blah, and the polls ain't been right

793
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 3: for the past two elections.

794
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 2: So I don't know how much try to pull that.

795
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 3: So, like, what is anybody doing that sort of reporting

796
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,919
Speaker 3: where they go to Trump rallies and talk to Trump

797
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 3: supporters and see what they're saying, like is he Are

798
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 3: the crowds still packed? Are the supporters still participating? Like

799
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 3: what is what's the vibe at the Trump rallies? Because

800
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 3: that was the part that no one, no one wanted

801
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 3: to seriously in twenty sixteen. His supporters were like riled

802
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 3: up and like, so is he Are people not showing

803
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 3: up for him anymore?

804
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 1: I know one thing. So two things that I know

805
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: just from like reporters that I know who live in

806
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 1: swing states or rural states or conservative states.

807
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 2: One is that he is not.

808
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 1: On the campaign trail like almost.

809
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Apparently he has very.

810
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: Few field offices even which is strange, which.

811
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 3: I think was he really took this for granted. He

812
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 3: thought he was running against Biden.

813
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: And it is also an old man who wasn't going

814
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: to be getting out much and also didn't have a

815
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: lot of fields.

816
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 2: So, you know, Kamala.

817
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: Harris even she's not young, but she seems like a

818
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,720
Speaker 1: common compared to these guys.

819
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 2: I know.

820
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 3: He's also you know she Black people don't age like that,

821
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So, like a black fifty

822
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 3: nine is not the same as Tim Walls can show

823
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 3: you they're the same age.

824
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:06,919
Speaker 2: Brain, you are kidding me, They're the same age. That's hilarious.

825
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 3: Actually, it is hilarious. He's funny about it. He's like, yeah,

826
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 3: I ran the school lunchroom for like ten years.

827
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 2: You don't leave that job with all your hair.

828
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: So well, anyway, she's showing up everywhere, you know, like

829
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: they're doing a bunch of events and whatever whatever. So

830
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:28,439
Speaker 1: with Trump, it's like he's having significantly fewer Rellys, which

831
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: is interesting.

832
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 2: Yeah.

833
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 1: And then a friend of mine who's in Pennsylvania was like, yeah, actually,

834
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: like I drove through the part of Pennsylvania that's like

835
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:43,479
Speaker 1: most Trump trumpy trumpy, and she's like, the signs were out,

836
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: but definitely not as much as like twenty sixteen, probably

837
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: about half as many signs.

838
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 2: That's interesting.

839
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 3: I am seeing online, like a lot of the all well,

840
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 3: we can't call him all right, but like the far

841
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 3: right white supremacist screws are starting to break with him,

842
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 3: like Nick Fuints is frustrated with him. And at first

843
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 3: it started with a lot of these types of people

844
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 3: saying that they were turning on the Trump campaign. They

845
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 3: still like Trump, but they felt like the people around

846
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 3: him they don't like doing what they wanted. And they

847
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 3: were like, until the Trump campaign corrects itself, we're.

848
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 2: Heading for a loss.

849
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 3: And like Nick Klint has like declared war on the

850
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,879
Speaker 3: Trump campaign. And now I'm singing he's frustrated with Trump

851
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 3: the person, because Trump is saying things like he's acknowledging

852
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 3: now that Biden is the president, because he's saying like

853
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 3: there was a cup against.

854
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 2: An American president. Isn't that terrible?

855
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 3: He's saying things like I lost by a sliver in

856
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 3: twenty twenty, So Nickquints is like, oh, I'm sorry you

857
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 3: lost thought I thought it was stolen. What happened to

858
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 3: stop the stale where all these people like had their

859
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,439
Speaker 3: lives ruined trying to get the election back for you.

860
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 3: Now people are starting to get pissed at Trump, and

861
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 3: then There's something about the abortion stance, right, Like he

862
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 3: had this vote on abortion rights in Florida and Trump

863
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 3: was saying he was going to vote against the Desanta's

864
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 3: bill or the pro life bill, and because it was

865
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 3: only like six weeks and he was like, I think

866
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 3: people need more time. So he said he was going

867
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 3: to vote no, and then there was this big backlash

868
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 3: and he went back and said now I'm going to

869
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 3: vote yes. And so he changed his mind in public

870
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 3: due to pressure from abortion votes. So those are the

871
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 3: things that make me feel like this is not he's

872
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 3: losing support.

873
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 2: And so.

874
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 3: I don't want to say that gives me hope because

875
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 3: Kamala Harris is not, you know, my favorite person in

876
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 3: the world either, but I'm a hell of a lot

877
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 3: more comfortable with her in the White House than I

878
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 3: am with other people. And it's like the way that

879
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 3: we think about elections, I think maybe needs to change, right,

880
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 3: Like you're not electing a friend, you're electing in aponent.

881
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 3: So like who do you want to organize against? And

882
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 3: do you want to organize against Donald Trump or do

883
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 3: you want to organize against Kamala Harris.

884
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 2: I'll take Kamala Harris in a heartbeat.

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Speaker 1: That's it for this week. I hope you liked this

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Speaker 1: episode of Spill Again. You can subscribe to it wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. We'll be back with more Drilled

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Speaker 1: next week, and we are busily working away on a

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Speaker 1: couple of new narrative seasons for you as well. In

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Speaker 1: the meantime, you can also find lots of articles on

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Speaker 1: our website at Drilled dot media and all over the

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Speaker 1: place because we're partnering with lots of outlets. If you

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Speaker 1: You can also sign up for our newsletter there. It's

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Speaker 1: a weekly roundup of important climate news and a little

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Speaker 1: and people tell us it helps them keep up on

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Speaker 1: the climate story. Check that out Drilled dot Media. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening, and we'll see you next week. M