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Speaker 1: Call It What It Is with Jessica Capshaw and Camille Luddington,

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Speaker 1: an iHeartRadio podcast.

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Speaker 2: Well, Hello, Hello, Hello.

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Speaker 3: Hello Call It crew, and welcome to another episode of

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Speaker 3: Call It What It Is.

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Speaker 1: I don't even want to chit chat with you. That's

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Speaker 1: how excited I am about this next guest.

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Speaker 3: I agree, I don't want to chit chat with you

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Speaker 3: at all.

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Speaker 2: Jessica, I've got nothing for you.

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Speaker 3: I've got nothing for you, but we have so much

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Speaker 3: for you guys today. Okay, who do we have on

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Speaker 3: the pod? We have a very special.

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Speaker 1: Guest today, we have on Amanda Knox. Amanda Knox is

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Speaker 1: a writer, a podcaster, and a criminal justice reform advocate

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Speaker 1: whose name became known worldwide after she was wrongfully convicted

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Speaker 1: and ultimately exonerated in the two thousand and seven murder

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Speaker 1: of her roommate Meredith Kersher while studying abroad in It.

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Speaker 3: She's spent nearly four years in prison and eight years

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Speaker 3: fighting to clear her name, all under an intense media spotlight. Jessica,

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you remember that time. I mean it was intense.

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Speaker 3: Actually doesn't even describe what it was.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: No, Today, she has reclaimed her narrative and she is

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Speaker 3: using her platform to challenge wrongful convictions, media sensationalism, and

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Speaker 3: the rush to judgment in high profile cases. And she

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Speaker 3: has a brand new project, you Guys on Hulu. On

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Speaker 3: Hulu it is going to Meet, premiering August twentieth, and

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Speaker 3: it is called The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, and

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Speaker 3: it is a series. The series dramatizes her story with

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Speaker 3: unflinching honesty, aiming to spark empathy and deeper reflection about

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Speaker 3: how we treat those accused of a crime. Let's get

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Speaker 3: into it, Amanda Knox, welcome to call it what it is.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: We are so excited to have you. We did a

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Speaker 3: little intro on you and and sort of reminded listeners

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Speaker 3: in case they didn't know of everything that happened to

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Speaker 3: you back in two thousand and seven. It does feel

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Speaker 3: I remember all of that news. It does as as

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Speaker 3: a listener or outsider to the situation, It does feel

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Speaker 3: like a long time ago for you. Does it feel

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Speaker 3: the same or no?

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Speaker 4: I mean it feels in many ways like another life ago,

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Speaker 4: because my life is so different now right Like I'm

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Speaker 4: a mom, I'm married, I have a four year old.

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Speaker 4: I have a almost two year old, so I'm very

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Speaker 4: much like in the trenches of motherhood alongside you know,

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Speaker 4: doing you know, podcasting and executive producing and writing.

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Speaker 5: You know, I'm a very.

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Speaker 4: Busy and and meshed person. Like I'm en meshed in

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Speaker 4: like my world of people and purpose. And to look

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Speaker 4: back on those those years of my life where I

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Speaker 4: was removed from the world and isolated from humanity and

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Speaker 4: was trapped in a jail cell with limited opportunities and

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Speaker 4: you know, punished, the huge part of the punishment was

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Speaker 4: being rendered purposeless.

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Speaker 5: It's a whole incredible other life.

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Speaker 4: And at the same time, you know, to this day,

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Speaker 4: there's not a day that goes by that I do

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Speaker 4: not think about what happened.

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Speaker 5: And I'm not.

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Speaker 4: Totally informed as a human being by what happened. So

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Speaker 4: it's very distant and very close at the same time.

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Speaker 1: When you said that, first of all, I got chills

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Speaker 1: all over my body. Yeah, but we talk a lot

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Speaker 1: about Camilla and I talk about it privately, we talk

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Speaker 1: about it publicly here, but anyone who I get in

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Speaker 1: a conversation with will know that purpose is kind of

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Speaker 1: like one of my number ones. It's definitely in the

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Speaker 1: top three of me understanding myself and in which directions

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Speaker 1: I move in because I am so purpose driven, and

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Speaker 1: purpose is you know, it can be in anything, right,

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Speaker 1: like your purpose in your family, your purpose in your work,

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Speaker 1: your But there's there's a true there's a there's a true.

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Speaker 2: North to it.

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Speaker 1: But when you were talking and I was thinking, and

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Speaker 1: you were saying that the punishment was being purposeless, I

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Speaker 1: was struck by could you think outside of it? I mean,

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Speaker 1: could could you dream outside of it?

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Speaker 2: Could you mean?

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Speaker 1: Was were you so entrenched in it that it was

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Speaker 1: the day to day, minute to minute or were you

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Speaker 1: distracted by the idea that that that this punishment could stop?

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Speaker 1: Or were you did you get to the point where

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Speaker 1: not just purposeless but hopeless?

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Speaker 4: Mmm? So interesting question. So I would have to say

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Speaker 4: that there were various phases over the course of going

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Speaker 4: through this experience, and so just I need to like

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Speaker 4: set a stage of what those what those phases were like.

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Speaker 4: So in the most simplified way, this legal ordeal, while

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Speaker 4: it has not fully resolved even today, like let's you know,

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Speaker 4: just focus on the you know, the murder accusation, right,

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Speaker 4: I was accused of murder, and that that didn't resolve

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Speaker 4: itself for eight years. It took eight years for it

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Speaker 4: to totally resolve itself, the first four of which that

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Speaker 4: I spent in prison, the second four of which where

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Speaker 4: I spent outside of prison, but I was still on trial,

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Speaker 4: I was facing extradition. I was still very much in

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Speaker 4: this limbo space of do I get to live my

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Speaker 4: life or not. So the first part of my imprisonment,

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Speaker 4: the first two years, the first half of my time

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Speaker 4: in prison, was before I even had a verdict, right,

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Speaker 4: So me and my family sort of lived in a

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Speaker 4: state of I mean, hopefulness, but also one might call denial,

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Speaker 4: because I was very much under the impression that while

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Speaker 4: these you know, a huge amount of time was being

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Speaker 4: stolen from me, it was all just a big misunderstanding.

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Speaker 4: It was all just a big mistake that when all

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Speaker 4: the adults sort of showed up in the room to

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Speaker 4: decide on what to do, they would do the right

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Speaker 4: thing and I would get to go home and I

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Speaker 4: would get my life back, right. So that mental space

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Speaker 4: in that was very much a kind of It was

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Speaker 4: very like that kitten that's hanging on to the branch

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Speaker 4: is just like, hang on, little kitten, You're going to

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Speaker 4: get there, and the like the way that my mom

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Speaker 4: talked about it was that we were in this dark tunnel,

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Speaker 4: but there was a light at the end of the tunnel.

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Speaker 5: Right, which is home. You've got hope, that's hope.

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Speaker 4: But then came the verdict which found me, which which

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Speaker 4: not only sentenced me to twenty six years in prison. Right,

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Speaker 4: it's a long time to tell a twenty two year

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Speaker 4: old girl twenty six years in prison. And the things

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Speaker 4: that I had to grieve in that moment, like the

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Speaker 4: idea that I might be a mother one day gone,

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Speaker 4: The idea that I might fall in love and have

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Speaker 4: a family just gone. Like the idea that I could

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Speaker 4: have a career and a future gone. Like I you know,

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Speaker 4: twenty six years means that I'm coming out in my

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Speaker 4: late forties and I'm going to be a broken and

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Speaker 4: traumatized woman who is completely estranged from everything and everyone

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Speaker 4: that I love. Okay, setting that aside, even there's the

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Speaker 4: existential crisis of realizing that, oh my god, the truth

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Speaker 4: doesn't matter. Like everything that I thought I could believe

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Speaker 4: in and count on has has either let me down

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Speaker 4: or betrayed me. And now what now what?

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Speaker 1: And the verdict being that this incredible certainty, like it

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Speaker 1: was it was finite. It felt like okay, now, like

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Speaker 1: the gavel bangs and it's done.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this is a guilty verdict. You were sentenced to

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Speaker 4: twenty six years in prison. You are an evil monster

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Speaker 4: who needs to be shut up and disappear. Like that.

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Speaker 4: This is what was presented to me, and I was

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Speaker 4: suddenly had a very quick shift in mental state where

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Speaker 4: I realized that I wasn't just like living it wasn't

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Speaker 4: a mistake right, Like, I wasn't just living somebody else's

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Speaker 4: life by a mistake. That's what it felt like up

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Speaker 4: to that moment, like oh no, I'm living somebody else's

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Speaker 4: life by mistake. I just need to get my life back.

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Speaker 4: As soon as that verdict got handed down, I was like,

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Speaker 4: oh my god, this is my life and there's nothing

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Speaker 4: I can do about it. And I went back to

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Speaker 4: the prison and looked around me with new eyes at

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Speaker 4: this scenario, which was all of this time that I've

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Speaker 4: just been sort of like heaping my head down and

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Speaker 4: thinking about life on the outside, like that life doesn't

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Speaker 4: exist for me.

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Speaker 5: What exists for me is right here this hellhole.

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Speaker 4: I then but then like the sort of good thing

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Speaker 4: that came out of it was Okay, what is there

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Speaker 4: a life worth living in this in this place, within

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Speaker 4: these limitations, And I quickly realized that actually, you know,

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Speaker 4: I had gone to Italy to become a translator. Turns

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Speaker 4: out that the prison needed a translator, and I, over

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Speaker 4: the course of two years, had become fluent in Italian,

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Speaker 4: and so suddenly I could be the unofficial translator for

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Speaker 4: all of those other women in the prison who couldn't

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Speaker 4: speak Italian and who couldn't defend themselves, and who couldn't

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Speaker 4: explain their ailments to the doctors, and who couldn't write

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Speaker 4: letters to their own loved ones because they couldn't read

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Speaker 4: or write.

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Speaker 5: And so I became very purposeful.

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Speaker 4: Within that prison environment, but still feeling like all those

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Speaker 4: things that I had hoped for myself, I had to

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Speaker 4: grieve them.

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Speaker 5: And then and.

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Speaker 4: Then I get released. You know, I'm acquitted. I'm released,

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Speaker 4: and I'm catapulted back into freedom. And I say that

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Speaker 4: in quotes, because one I was not technically free. I

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Speaker 4: was still on trial. So for another four years, I'm

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Speaker 4: still like facing the prospect that someone's going to steal

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Speaker 4: my freedom away from me again, but also because all

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Speaker 4: this time in prison I had I had imagined what

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Speaker 4: life would be like for me on the outside, and

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Speaker 4: I really hoped and hoped beyond hope that I would

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Speaker 4: get the life back that I had before everything happened.

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Speaker 4: All these bad things happened to me, and I just thought,

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Speaker 4: if I could only just get home and get back

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Speaker 4: to my life, I'll be okay. But that life didn't

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Speaker 4: exist for me anymore either, because the world had changed

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Speaker 4: around me. I was now the girl accused of murder.

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Speaker 4: I was very much still in the public eye, and

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Speaker 4: in a more deeper way, I was changed, Like I

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Speaker 4: was not the girl who went to Italy and had

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Speaker 4: never had anything bad happen to her. Like I was

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Speaker 4: a very changed person. And it took a long time

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Speaker 4: for me to rediscover how I had changed and what

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Speaker 4: that meant for how I could exist in the world

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Speaker 4: in a meaningful way, because the messaging that I got

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Speaker 4: was you're either a psychopathic murderer who got away with it,

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Speaker 4: or you've been wrongly convicted, but your wrongful conviction is

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Speaker 4: your own fault.

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Speaker 5: So too bad, Like, yeah.

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Speaker 3: That's so intense, Yeah that's very and in twenty two

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Speaker 3: is so young as well to have been experiencing that,

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Speaker 3: and then when you get it out, you're still so young.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're still in your adolescent brain, I.

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Speaker 3: Mean course, literally discovering yourself.

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Speaker 4: Arrested at twenty released at let's say I think I was.

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Speaker 4: Was I twenty Yeah? I was twenty four when I

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Speaker 4: was released, and then I was finally exonerated when I

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Speaker 4: was twenty eight.

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Speaker 3: Can I ask, because we have a lot of young

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Speaker 3: listeners who maybe don't know all the details of your

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Speaker 3: case and maybe just broad strokes of it, what was

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Speaker 3: the thing that did exonerate you in the end.

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Speaker 4: So there was a number of things, but the most

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Speaker 4: important thing was that there was zero DNA evidence that

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Speaker 4: actually linked me to this crime. Right, So early on,

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Speaker 4: the prosecution said that there was a murder weapon that

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Speaker 4: they had discovered. The murder weapon and this is the knife,

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Speaker 4: right that, Yeah, like my roommate was was raped and

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Speaker 4: stabbed to death. And so they found this knife that

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Speaker 4: they just pulled at random from my boyfriend's apartment, and

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Speaker 4: they said that on this knife there was my DNA

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Speaker 4: on the handle and my roommate's blood on the blade,

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Speaker 4: and they presented this in court and everyone believed them

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Speaker 4: until finally, during my appeals trial, the judge appointed an

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Speaker 4: independent expert who reviewed the DNA evidence and said, no,

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Speaker 4: that's not true. Yes, Amanda's DNA is on the handle,

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Speaker 4: but any DNA that's on the blade is inconclusive at best,

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Speaker 4: and it's certainly not blood. And so that just blew

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Speaker 4: the prosecution's case out the window. They had nothing linking

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Speaker 4: me to this crime, and so they I was found innocent,

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Speaker 4: and which is great. I think that I'm surprised that

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Speaker 4: I was ever convicted in the first place, because I

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Speaker 4: had no motive. They were never able to, you know,

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Speaker 4: provide a motive why I would rape and murder my roommate.

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Speaker 4: I had no history of any kind of mental illness

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Speaker 4: or violence in my background. You know, I had an alibi.

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Speaker 4: I was at my boyfriend's house. I like the only

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Speaker 4: like also, you know, for the record, there was like

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Speaker 4: she was murdered in her bedroom. There was all this

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Speaker 4: DNA found of someone else who was a known burglar,

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Speaker 4: who had was known to be violent towards women, and

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Speaker 4: instead of just saying, oh, it's him, what they said was, oh,

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Speaker 4: Amanda told him to rape Meredith, and then he held

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Speaker 4: her down while Amanda stabbed her that like, but there's

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Speaker 4: no like DNA of me in the room where I

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Speaker 4: supposedly was struggling to the death with my roommates. So

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Speaker 4: it's just like it was posterous from the start, but

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Speaker 4: like people really honed in on, like, oh, it's the

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Speaker 4: murder weapon, and then some independent experts came along and

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Speaker 4: were like, actually it's not.

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Speaker 5: And then you know, the entire case crumbled.

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Speaker 2: Everything you're describing sounds so disorienting.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it doesn't sound real.

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Speaker 1: Did you have anyone, because that's like living in the

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Speaker 1: upside down. Someone's telling you all these this laundry list

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Speaker 1: of things that are that is absolutely not true. You

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Speaker 1: have no lived experience or memory of it. It's again

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Speaker 1: being told like it's truth. And then there are people

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Speaker 1: nodding instead of saying whoa, whoa, whoa.

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Speaker 2: Whoa whoa.

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine how disoriented I would be in

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Speaker 1: that situation, and I think that whenever I get disoriented,

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Speaker 1: I immediately like, look, you sort of referenced this earlier. You

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Speaker 1: look for the adults in the room, like where are

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Speaker 1: the grownups? Yeah, because these people are not getting it right.

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Speaker 1: Who was there a grown up at all that you

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Speaker 1: that you got to trust during this experience, or that

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Speaker 1: you could look to for critical thinking and or just

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Speaker 1: that was that when they said the crazy thing, was

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Speaker 1: like that's a crazy thing.

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Speaker 5: Well, so here's the thing.

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Speaker 4: Like there were like my prosecutor was like a grown

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Speaker 4: ass man standing up in front of the courtroom talking

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Speaker 4: about how I'm a slut monster and like putting like

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Speaker 4: setting a scene where he's literally putting words into my mouth.

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Speaker 4: He's like Amanda said, Oh, this is now You're gonna

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Speaker 4: get it, you prudish little girl. Now I'm gonna make

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna force you to have sex, and I'm gonna,

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Speaker 4: you know, like like punish you. And he's just like

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Speaker 4: making ship up on the fly, like making it up,

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Speaker 4: and everyone is just sitting there listening to it. And

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Speaker 4: I'm like, there's he's making this up? Like why are

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Speaker 4: why are we allowed to do this? Like who's the

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Speaker 4: one who has the authority?

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Speaker 5: And it felt like.

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Speaker 4: Either the people who had the authority were already just

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Speaker 4: like totally bought into that narrative or it was like

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Speaker 4: there is no one who has the authority to this day,

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Speaker 4: you know it. Of course my family knew that it

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Speaker 4: was all insane, and of course even my attorneys knew

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Speaker 4: who was all insane. And there were many you know,

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Speaker 4: there are many vocal critics of this narrative. Even as

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Speaker 4: it was going.

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Speaker 1: On, did you see headlines like were you aware of

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Speaker 1: what the coverage was of it as well?

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Speaker 2: Or were you just living it?

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Speaker 4: I had limited access because again I was in prison,

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Speaker 4: so I only had access to Italian reporting.

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Speaker 5: But that said, I knew through.

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Speaker 4: My family members that there was you know, worldwide inst

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Speaker 4: in the case. I was receiving letters from all over

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Speaker 4: the world from people who were writing to say that

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Speaker 4: they were following the case. It didn't really become like

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Speaker 4: viscerally clear to me until I was released from prison.

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Speaker 4: And like, I will never forget being on the plane

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Speaker 4: and being sort of like whisked away, like away from

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Speaker 4: all the other passengers the by the airport's staff because

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Speaker 4: they were afraid that I was going to be mobbed.

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Speaker 4: And then I get on the airplane and everyone else

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Speaker 4: falls asleep, but I'm like two, just like amped by

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Speaker 4: adrenaline because I'm not in a prison cell anymore. And

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Speaker 4: so I turned on the TV and every single channel

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Speaker 4: was just my face and my name and the headline,

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Speaker 4: and I was just like I just felt all. I

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Speaker 4: just felt a coldness, just like shower over me, like

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Speaker 4: oh my God. And of course I come home to

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Speaker 4: Seattle and I'm overwhelmed just by the smell of my home,

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Speaker 4: which is like, you know that, like I'm from the

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Speaker 4: Pacific Northwest. There's rain, there's earth, there's pine trees. I

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Speaker 4: hadn't smelled that in four years, and I'm hit with

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Speaker 4: it like smelling salts. And the next thing I know,

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Speaker 4: I'm stuck in front of a press conference, which I'm

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Speaker 4: completely unprepared for. So yes and no, Like yes, I

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Speaker 4: was aware that every time I walked into the courtroom

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Speaker 4: there were more cameras that I can count, and people

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Speaker 4: shouting at me, and you know, people interviewing my family

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Speaker 4: members all the time. Like I knew that, but I didn't, like, no,

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Speaker 4: know that, I don't know. I was finally let out

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Speaker 4: and I could get a glimpse of it for myself.

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Speaker 3: Was there any part of you because it was such

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Speaker 3: a huge case, right and it was covered, it was

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Speaker 3: covered all over the world, was there any part of

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Speaker 3: you that came home and felt like you wanted to

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Speaker 3: change your name to almost assume a new identity, to

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Speaker 3: remove yourself from that.

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Speaker 4: You know, a lot of people have asked me that,

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Speaker 4: And there's there's a couple factors for why I didn't.

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Speaker 4: One is that even if I had changed my name,

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Speaker 4: I still am pretty recognizable. Like there was a point

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Speaker 4: where I cut off all my hair, I was wearing glasses,

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Speaker 4: and even then I was still being followed by paparazzi.

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Speaker 4: So like I there was only I couldn't just like

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Speaker 4: do a sort of face off maneuver, like I had

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Speaker 4: a recognizable face.

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Speaker 5: So there's that issue.

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Speaker 4: But I think the other one was that for me,

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Speaker 4: changing my name felt like admitting defeat. It felt like

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Speaker 4: it was admitting that there was something wrong with me

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Speaker 4: and not something wrong with the way that the world

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Speaker 4: had treated me. And I was very resistant to the

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Speaker 4: idea of changing my name because I didn't want to

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Speaker 4: like give the idea that like there was anything wrong

357
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Speaker 4: with me, Like I didn't do anything wrong, and so

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Speaker 4: I don't need to change all of you need to

359
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 4: change is basically like the feeling. And I think the

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Speaker 4: other another part of it is this sort of silver

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Speaker 4: lining to it being so frickin' public is that.

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Speaker 5: Whether or not other.

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Speaker 4: People know about the worst experience of my life. I

364
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:31,439
Speaker 4: know it, yeah, and it's it's it's almost like the

365
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 4: fact that everyone else knows it means that it doesn't

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Speaker 4: become an obstacle between me and everyone else. It's just

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00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 4: kind of there. It's on the table, and you're going

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Speaker 4: to react to it the way that you're going to

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Speaker 4: react to it, and I'm going to learn a lot

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Speaker 4: about you by the way that you react to it, honestly.

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Speaker 4: So it's I never at any point had to find myself.

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Speaker 5: You know, I know a lot.

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Speaker 4: I'm friends with a lot of exonerated people, and not

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Speaker 4: all of them have you know, world famous cases. And

375
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Speaker 4: in fact, you know, I'm pretty up there in terms

376
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Speaker 4: of how well known of a wrongful conviction. And some

377
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 4: of them do have that choice of deciding when and

378
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Speaker 4: how to share that fact with the people around them,

379
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 4: but they do carry it with them like baggage. It's

380
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 4: like bad news that they have to like share with people,

381
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Speaker 4: and it's it's a struggle to like it's a it's

382
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 4: a barrier, it's a it's a it's very often again

383
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Speaker 4: like this object of shame y where they like even

384
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 4: if it's not their fault, there's still you know, I

385
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 4: think all victims of you know, especially I think this

386
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 4: is a thing we have in common with victims of crime,

387
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Speaker 4: is that like, this bad thing happened to you, but

388
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Speaker 4: you don't want it to define you, but in a

389
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Speaker 4: big way, it is a part of who you are,

390
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Speaker 4: and how do you make sense of that and how

391
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 4: do you decide to share that with people? And in

392
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 4: my case, I didn't have that choice, like it was

393
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Speaker 4: just there, and so I had to deal with the

394
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Speaker 4: fact that everyone knew, for better or for worse.

395
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I can imagine I'm imagining this that that

396
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 1: being imprisoned, You know that there's a.

397
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 2: That there's a.

398
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 1: Stripping of dignity that would that would stay with you

399
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: even if you got out, even if you were that

400
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: that feeling, that feeling, I mean, you don't you're not free,

401
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: You're you're you're you're less than you're, you're imprisoned, you're

402
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 1: it's it's very different. So you did end up having

403
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 1: such a well known case that now we are led

404
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: to the the part where you know, in just a

405
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,959
Speaker 1: couple of days there will be a new series that

406
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: is different than anything else. That's come out about your story.

407
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 1: It stars Grace van Patten, who I played her mother

408
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 1: on Tommy Lies. So I know Gracey well, I'm from

409
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,199
Speaker 1: working with her and she's so lovely and I've been

410
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: seeing that the the pictures of her, and it's I've

411
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 1: been very taken by.

412
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 2: First of all, she looks like.

413
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Speaker 5: You, I know, isn't it wild?

414
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 2: She really looks like you.

415
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's almost creepy, you guys, it.

416
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 2: Is, it really is.

417
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 1: But tell us, I mean again, you know again, so public,

418
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: you have the documentary, you have the podcast, you have,

419
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 1: you know, you're deep into your advocacy work. What was

420
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 1: it about the idea of a limited series that called

421
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 1: to you?

422
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 4: Like?

423
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 5: What? What were you?

424
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 3: What were you going to be able.

425
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 2: To do in this that you hadn't in the other pieces?

426
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 5: Great?

427
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 4: So, I actually first want to go back to something

428
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 4: that you said, which I think is actually a really

429
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 4: smart and empathetic and I want to thank you for that.

430
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 4: Is just noting that what the prison experience is like

431
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 4: and how it changes your psychology and your relationship is

432
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 4: something like privacy. Right in prison, you have no privacy

433
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 4: that does not exis for you anymore. You can't go

434
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 4: to the bathroom without someone watching you. You cannot take

435
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 4: a shower without someone watching you. You do like, privacy

436
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 4: is a luxury that I did not have for four

437
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 4: years of my developing life. Meanwhile, everything about me was

438
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 4: being dissected in the courtroom, you know, true things and

439
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 4: completely false things, like you know, anything about my sex life,

440
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 4: real and imagined up per discussion in broad public in

441
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 4: front of everyone.

442
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 3: And let's not forget that this is like two thousand

443
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 3: and seven, when it's like you were slut shamed, right, Like,

444
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 3: if you had multiple sexual partners, you were slut like

445
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 3: and therefore it said something about you and your moral

446
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 3: compass and all the things. It was a different time,

447
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 3: hopefully than it is now.

448
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 4: Right, And I, yeah, I do feel like a lot

449
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 4: of young women, your younger listeners are, I are like

450
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 4: their response has always been like, oh my god, like

451
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 4: they're just aghast, Like you know, in the world of

452
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 4: like call her daddy, Like, this is a very different

453
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 4: world when we talk about emerging into ourselves as sexual beings,

454
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 4: and that was just not allowed. It was it was

455
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 4: very much a weapon against young women, and that was

456
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 4: deeply weaponized against me. But I to your point, about like,

457
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 4: you know, after having everything about me dissected, it changed

458
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 4: even my relationship to the idea of privacy and what

459
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 4: I could keep private because I felt like, even after

460
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 4: I was released from prison and even after I was exonerated,

461
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 4: like I have and again, this is a burden that

462
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 4: everyone who's been wrongly accused feels. You feel like every

463
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 4: day of your life, for the rest of your life,

464
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 4: you are proving your innocence. Yeah, and there's a kind

465
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 4: of openness that you have to have because it's almost

466
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 4: like you have to be overly transparent in order to

467
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 4: do that to prove your innocence. At least, that's how

468
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 4: a little bit how I feel that makes sense. But

469
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 4: to your point about the series, which I'm so incredibly

470
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 4: proud of and excited about, not least of which because

471
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 4: Grace van Patten is a fricking genius and I really

472
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 4: can't wait to see how like, and I'd love to

473
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 4: know because you've worked with her, how like she's just

474
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 4: like leveled up as an actress by like what was

475
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 4: demanded of her for this role, because it was not

476
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 4: an easy role to take, Like she had to be

477
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 4: a young and naive twenty year old girl, and she

478
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 4: had to be a jaded and haunted thirty five year

479
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 4: old woman. She had to be experiencing the best moments

480
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 4: of my life and the worst moments of my life.

481
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 4: And she had to do it in English and Italian.

482
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: But I read somewhere that she was it was a

483
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: dream of hers, so that she had actually followed your

484
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: story and she'd actually that she was the one that

485
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: was like because at one point Margaret quality was attached

486
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: to it. And when she dropped out, she had actually

487
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: said to her agent, I, if anyone ever gets to

488
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: play her, I would like to play her.

489
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 5: Yes that true, Yes, yes.

490
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 4: Her enthusiasm was for the role was like huge her

491
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 4: and you know, her credible gravi toss was he I mean,

492
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,360
Speaker 4: you know, tell me lies. She was just an incredible presence,

493
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 4: had so much like depth and gravi toss and like

494
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 4: nuance to her character and then you know, to see

495
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 4: her sort of blossom. Like friends and family of mine

496
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 4: who have seen the series say that they get like

497
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 4: goosebumps watching her because of the way that she really

498
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 4: just takes on my personality and like the sing song

499
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 4: of my voice and the cha cha of my you know,

500
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 4: my footstep, Like there's she's really embodied this role and

501
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 4: also brought herself into it and added these like just

502
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 4: extra layers of nuance, which is so cool.

503
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 5: I love seeing it.

504
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: We haven't had any humorous moments on this for obvious reason,

505
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: but I do. I do just want to say that

506
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: Chasha footstep is a good one.

507
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 2: I want to do. What does that sound like? I

508
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: want to chaf footsteps or another.

509
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 4: One is like I snort when I laugh quite a bit,

510
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 4: and so did my grandma Nina, right, and so she,

511
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 4: like I think at least once snorted on like snorted

512
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 4: in one scene so that we got the benefit of

513
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 4: the snort. I was like nicknamed the snort on set

514
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 4: by one of the people.

515
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to totally throw Gramma Onion

516
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: under the bus. I mean I've been known to snort.

517
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not above a snort.

518
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 2: It's happened.

519
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, I do it all the time. So did you.

520
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 3: Get to spend I mean, I know, I'm thinking as

521
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 3: an actress, like taking on a role like this, you

522
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 3: could go back and like you could watch interviews and

523
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 3: watch footage. Did you get to spend one on one

524
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 3: time together before shooting so that she could sort of

525
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 3: sit with you in.

526
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 4: This Oh totally yeah. So we had numerous zoom calls.

527
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 4: We The first time we ever hung out with in

528
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 4: person was an Echo park. We were there with me

529
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 4: and my husband and my kids. And then of course

530
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 4: we spent time together on set, so you know, we've

531
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 4: talked through scenes. We've done some big picture discussions of like, oh,

532
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 4: how do you like really good questions that she would

533
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 4: ask me, like you know, how do you nonverbally communicate

534
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 4: with your husband? Or when when people say you're quirky?

535
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 4: Like what does that mean? Can you give me an example?

536
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 4: And I was like, well, you know like those musical

537
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 4: theater kids, kids from high school. She's like yes, and

538
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 4: You're like, I know what that is. So and she

539
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 4: was like that's that's like me and my friends. And

540
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, so you got it. And even

541
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 4: that she said that, like I remember recently she said

542
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 4: that it wasn't actually it didn't take this huge leap

543
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 4: in order to like get into the Amanda mindset, because

544
00:30:47,720 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 4: it was just we're very similar kind of people. Anyway,

545
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 4: were you ever on set and she was in a

546
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 4: scene and they yelled cut and you had to come

547
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 4: in and say like, wait, that's not how I would

548
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,959
Speaker 4: have that, like doesn't feel organic to me, like what

549
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 4: I'm seeing, and sort of redirect her in a way

550
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 4: that you would have participated in this moment.

551
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 5: I never felt.

552
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 4: The only time I ever stopped and entered in was

553
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 4: when she pronounced.

554
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 5: The Italian wrong.

555
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 4: So I was like, oh, you actually pronounced it like this,

556
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 4: and she was like, oh do like you know, like

557
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 4: she was remembering how to pronounce the Italian word, but otherwise,

558
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 4: like her instincts were so spot on. I think there

559
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 4: is only one scene where I was giving a few

560
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 4: notes because but also because it was it was the

561
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,479
Speaker 4: scene itself was a such a psychological journey. It was

562
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 4: the interrogation scene. I cannot wait to see this, Yes,

563
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 4: so there, this is. This scene is a tremendous scene

564
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 4: for her to play, because she goes from one mental

565
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 4: state on this roller coaster of a psychological breakdown and

566
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 4: then ends up in a completely altered state by the end.

567
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 4: And it's a it's a long, nuanced scene, and so

568
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 4: there are many moments where like things things are changing,

569
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 4: things are shifting, Different people are interacting with her in

570
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 4: different ways and so it took a lot of like

571
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 4: giving sort of like guidance to people like when is

572
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 4: it that the heat gets amped up in this way?

573
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 4: And who's leading it? And how is Amanda respond. There's

574
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 4: just it was just so much happening all at once

575
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 4: that like there was you know, there was a complicated scene,

576
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 4: but like even in that scene, like her, her instincts

577
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 4: were so strong and I really trusted her and I

578
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,719
Speaker 4: saw it with my own eyes as she like lived

579
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 4: It really felt like she was living this this experience

580
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 4: that we.

581
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 5: Had, you know, crafted as a team.

582
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: Well, say something about that, because that's that's I'm very

583
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: interested in them because obviously it's such a long span

584
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: of time and there are so many important pieces and

585
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: again you had done some pieces through podcasting and documentaries

586
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: that had that had told the story, right, like you

587
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: had that, but now you're doing it in is it

588
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: eight episodes?

589
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 5: Yes, it's eight episodes?

590
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: So how did you find them? How did you figure

591
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: out what was going to go in? And and is

592
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: it different than anything we've seen?

593
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 3: Right?

594
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, to go back to a previous question which

595
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 4: she had asked I didn't fully answer, is like why

596
00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 4: why tell the show now? And in this way when

597
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 4: one might say this, this story has been told in

598
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 4: so many ways and so many, so many times. I've

599
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 4: only ever taken part in like one documentary.

600
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 5: I've done like numerous podcasts and stuff like that.

601
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 4: But like I did take part in the Amananox Netflix documentary,

602
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 4: but that is a documentary where I was interviewed. I

603
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 4: was not at all, at at any point in any

604
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 4: kind of creative or authoritative role. I was really at

605
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 4: the mercy of the filmmakers to create the film that

606
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 4: they wanted to create. And I think that they made

607
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,280
Speaker 4: a great film, and I think that it really touched

608
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 4: upon like the broader implications of this case, and it

609
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 4: didn't just you know, revel in the in the trauma

610
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 4: of it all. So I think they did a really

611
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,240
Speaker 4: great job. But again, it wasn't like of my creation.

612
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 4: And many people over the years have reached out to

613
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 4: me because they want to tell my story, and I

614
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 4: wasn't interested in that because for the longest time, this

615
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 4: didn't really feel like my story. So I didn't, you know,

616
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 4: take up any of those opportunities. And it wasn't until

617
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 4: twenty twenty one when I was pregnant and then gave

618
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 4: birth to my daughter, and that I started to think

619
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 4: about how how I could tell this story in a

620
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 4: way that it did feel like my story. And part

621
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 4: of that was because I had already two years, you know,

622
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 4: since twenty nineteen, I had reached out to my prosecutor

623
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 4: and started to develop a relationship with him, and you know,

624
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 4: an epistolary relationship, right, We were communicating with each other,

625
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 4: and I had decided that I was going to return

626
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 4: to Italy to confront him.

627
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: And so you're writing letters back and forth. Yep, the

628
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 1: confrontation wasn't happening in the letters. You were just what

629
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 1: were you saying in the letters?

630
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm like, is he was he acknowledging that?

631
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 5: Like he moved up?

632
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 3: Like that's you know, that says there, And I'm sorry

633
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 3: that you went to prison.

634
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 4: So I don't want to give anything away, but what

635
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 4: I will say is that this series spends less time

636
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 4: in the epistolary relationship and more time in the actual

637
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 4: like head on confrontation, whereas my book Free, which my

638
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 4: new book Free, my Search for Meaning, does discuss that

639
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 4: epistolary relationship that we developed and then all of that.

640
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: So somehow this letter writing exchange leads to a point

641
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 1: in which he agrees and I'm guessing you're asking.

642
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: Him to meet you. Yes, he agrees, yes, and then

643
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 2: that okay, yes, was.

644
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 3: There any part of you that never wanted to go

645
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 3: back to Italy?

646
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 4: Ever? Again, No, I didn't know if I would be

647
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 4: able to so and again to like return back to.

648
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 5: Keep I keep not answering questions.

649
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 3: They have so many questions. This is so yeah captivating.

650
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 4: So when I partnered with Monica Lewinsky, who had been

651
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 4: a friend, you.

652
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 2: Know, for years, and it was a tremendous human.

653
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 4: A tremendous human and an incredible like path forger for

654
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,240
Speaker 4: those of us who are trying to reclaim our lives

655
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 4: like she has forged that path. And when we partnered

656
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 4: with our creator and showrunner kJ Steinberg, we all agreed

657
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 4: that this story doesn't just exist in the way that

658
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 4: everyone else has told this story, which is it's a

659
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 4: courtroom drama like this is not what this is like.

660
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 4: This story is a personal story of evolution of a

661
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 4: human being. And so that's why it begins and ends

662
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 4: like this story is. Amanda goes back to Italy to

663
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 4: confront her prosecution and to understand and appreciate why we

664
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 4: go back in time and relive everything she went through

665
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 4: in order to get to that final moment when she

666
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 4: confronts her prosecutor and they have that face to face standoff.

667
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 4: And it was so important to kJ and Monica and

668
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 4: me to show that there is a life before trauma

669
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 4: and a life after and that life after is so

670
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 4: that is where this like this distinguishes this show from

671
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 4: any other true crime show that you might have, you

672
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 4: might encounter, because it does not just close the curtain

673
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 4: when I get out of prison, like that is where

674
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 4: I begin to start making decisions for myself in response

675
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 4: to this bad thing that happened to me. And that's

676
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 4: and that's where it becomes a universal story instead of

677
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 4: just this wild, crazy thing that happened, you know, right.

678
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: It's so interesting that partnering with Monica because obviously, in

679
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: during an incredibly exploited and widely known story, there weren't

680
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: grown ups in the room.

681
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 4: Of all the people who should have been grown ups

682
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 4: in the room, there should have been grown up.

683
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,439
Speaker 1: It was gonna be my next point because that should

684
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: be the most grown up of all the grown ups,

685
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: and they weren't. And then there was also, you know

686
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: in her story not well, the public was the prosecutor

687
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: on some level, but there was Linda trip Like at

688
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:31,399
Speaker 1: the center of.

689
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 4: It, right, that betrayal of Trump.

690
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: And I don't yeah, and I don't know the answer

691
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: to this, and maybe I should. So did she ever

692
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: confront Linda?

693
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 4: Did Monica ever have the chance to confront Linda? You

694
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 4: should have her on the podcast.

695
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, you know what this is. We have to

696
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 3: hear it from her dress. I think I have a

697
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 3: question have you found I have two questions. Have you

698
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 3: been able to find forgiveness for the people that put

699
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 3: you into the position that you ended up in?

700
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,760
Speaker 4: So that is one of the questions that this series

701
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,919
Speaker 4: attempts to address and show. And I think what I'll say,

702
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 4: without giving away anything, is that when I set out

703
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 4: to go confront my prosecutor, forgiveness was not my intention.

704
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 5: However, I was.

705
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 4: I was surprised to discover that compassion sort of inevitably

706
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 4: leads you down a path that looks a lot like forgiveness,

707
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 4: even if that's not the intention per se. My intention

708
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 4: was to understand him.

709
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,959
Speaker 3: What did you want to hear from him? What would

710
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 3: have been like the perfect thing to hear from him.

711
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 4: The perfect thing to hear from him would have been,

712
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 4: I was wrong. I'm going to stand on the rooftops

713
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 4: and tell everyone I was wrong, Please forget me. What

714
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 4: can I do to make this up to you? That

715
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 4: would have been amazing?

716
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 3: And this year series will show us what he did

717
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 3: end up saying to you exactly. Okay, I have my

718
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 3: other question is is you mentioned having a daughter. Yes,

719
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 3: if your daughter wanted to study abroad, is there a

720
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 3: part of you that would be like.

721
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 4: No, No, I actually am very pro studying abroad, especially

722
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:31,959
Speaker 4: now that we live in a world that's so much

723
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 4: more connected than it was when I.

724
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 5: Was going and studying abroad.

725
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 4: Like it, it's not necessarily safer, per se, Like being

726
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 4: able to call me on FaceTime doesn't protect someone like

727
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 4: I'm not able to like go and intervene if something

728
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 4: bad is happening to my daughter. But I do think

729
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 4: that I can equip her to trust her own instincts

730
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 4: and yeah, like here's the here's the really dub thing,

731
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 4: like what happened to Meredith, Like, let's put aside what

732
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 4: happened to me?

733
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 5: What happened to Meredith?

734
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 4: She was doing everything right, like she was never walking

735
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 4: home alone. She was calling her family members every day.

736
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 4: She was in her own bedroom when she was raped

737
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 4: and murdered, Like, this is not like you know, you know,

738
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 4: she wasn't just like wandering around, you know, in some

739
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,280
Speaker 4: back alley like she was. She had gotten a walk

740
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 4: home with her friends and was attacked in her own bedroom. Like,

741
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 4: so there is no way to be perfectly safe in

742
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 4: the world. That said that could have happened to her

743
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 4: in her own hometown.

744
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 5: It's there. You are.

745
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 4: You are a sort of by definition, more vulnerable when

746
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 4: you study abroad. But that's also one of the reasons

747
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 4: why it's such a beautiful experience because normally that is

748
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 4: because you're more vulnerable, that leads people to embrace you

749
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 4: and to hold you and to welcome you and to

750
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 4: sort of stitch you into their social fabric because they

751
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 4: recognize you as a human being and they want to

752
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 4: support you. You're a young person who has everything going

753
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 4: for them, Like, you know, when I was in Italy,

754
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 4: I was even having those wonderful experiences where I was

755
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 4: making friends and I was getting to know like it's

756
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 4: this beautiful and I think it's very important to have

757
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 4: like cultural exchanges and to recognize that the world is

758
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 4: bigger than your own backyard and there are different ways

759
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 4: to be and to live and they're all valid. Like,

760
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,959
Speaker 4: I think that that's a really important visceral experience to have.

761
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 4: And at the same time, like you are more vulnerable,

762
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 4: and I think that my daughter is not going to

763
00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 4: not know that.

764
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: And you know a piece of this.

765
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: When I first heard of your story, you know, we

766
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: are we immediately sort of a neurologically, like neurobiologically we

767
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,439
Speaker 1: have this like hardwiring to connect. Right, So what about

768
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: a story might be something that I understand in a

769
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: certain way or in a different way, or that has

770
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:24,240
Speaker 1: somehow touched or kissed my life. And I had studied abroad,

771
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 1: uh in Florence, Italy my junior year classic.

772
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 2: Very art history with you art history.

773
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 1: And when you were just talking, the vulnerability would be

774
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: that you you're still in school, You're you're and so

775
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 1: you have your adolescent mind, which adolescents a fancy world

776
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 1: word for child. Right, you have your child mind. You're

777
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: not fully baked yet, You're it's not like maybe you're

778
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 1: going to make some off choices. You have to make

779
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: some off choices in order to figure out what the

780
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: on choices are, the right choices are, and you're in

781
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: a very new place, but you do have this opportunity

782
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 1: because you're so open to everything, You're so open to learning,

783
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: you're so receptive. And so when I heard your story,

784
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: I remembered that mindset and that feeling of being so open,

785
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: so receptive, so or rather less worried about, you know,

786
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 1: fill in the blank doing something that just wasn't necessarily

787
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: what you would do, you know, ten years later or whatever,

788
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 1: and knowing that you can make mistakes and then it

789
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: can be okay. And yeah, clearly in your case.

790
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 5: It was not okay.

791
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 2: It was not okay. Yeah, And just like the fear

792
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: that would come in about.

793
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 4: That, Yeah, I think the biggest fear that I came

794
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 4: out from it was, you know, after you've gone through

795
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 4: an experience like this, how like, not just how do

796
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 4: you trust the rest of the world, but how do

797
00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 4: you trust yourself again? Because it was your own openness

798
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 4: and vulnerability that allowed for this to happen. Like, you know,

799
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 4: the second that I called my mom and said, oh

800
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 4: my god, there's been a break in, and then you know,

801
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 4: I called her back later and I was like, Mom,

802
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 4: there's you know, something really bad has happened. She was like,

803
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 4: get on a plane right now, come home. And I didn't.

804
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 4: I didn't because I wanted to help the investigation. I

805
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,479
Speaker 4: didn't because the police told me that I should stay

806
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 4: and help them. You know, I didn't for all. And

807
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 4: I didn't because I didn't like I you know, I

808
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 4: was in a scenario where, yes, suddenly I was in

809
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,280
Speaker 4: a very scary situation that was very unsafe, but also

810
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 4: I trusted the police, m.

811
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 3: Right, and And it probably never occurred to you that

812
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 3: it was the era was gonna enup pointing at you.

813
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 5: No, Like it's like it was the least.

814
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 4: Like The thing I was worried about was that the

815
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,760
Speaker 4: person who murdered my roommate was like a weird psycho

816
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 4: who was like fixated on the people who lived in

817
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 4: our house. Like I was afraid that maybe this person

818
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 4: was maybe following us and might try to kill me too,

819
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,720
Speaker 4: you know, like that that was what I was thinking.

820
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 4: I was not at all thinking that I was going

821
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 4: to be targeted from the very people that I was

822
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 4: leaning on for my own safety.

823
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: Did you ever fixate or play back that moment that

824
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 1: feels like a big one.

825
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,240
Speaker 3: Like if I just got on the plane, Yeah, yeah,

826
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 3: if you had would have been fine, because I know

827
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 3: there's a lot of conversation about you being an American

828
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 3: in an Italian court, right, so that was a big

829
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 3: part of it. So if you had gone home.

830
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 4: If I had gone home, none of this would have happened. Wow,

831
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 4: because because the police did fixate on me from the

832
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 4: very beginning, but they had no evidence, Like it was

833
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 4: all based on a hunch. They were like, uh, you know,

834
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 4: one cop said that I smelled like sex and that,

835
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 4: and so it didn't seem right or like another you know.

836
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 4: The cops just like had this idea from the beginning

837
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 4: that what the crime appeared to be, which was that

838
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 4: it was a break in that resulted in a rape

839
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 4: and murder. From the beginning, they believed that the break

840
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 4: in was staged, that the break in wasn't real, and

841
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 4: so someone who lived in the house had staged it

842
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 4: to cover it up, and that's why they were focusing

843
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 4: on me. But even then they had no proof of that.

844
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:35,720
Speaker 4: That was just their hunch.

845
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 3: Yes, there's no like extraditing tone, Yeah, there's no et

846
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 3: me to Italy based on no evidence.

847
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 4: And what would have resulted had this gone down, is

848
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 4: they would have had to They couldn't have arrested me

849
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 4: because they couldn't have interrogated me. They you know, they

850
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 4: put me through this whole incredible thing so that they

851
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 4: could arrest me by coercing me into implicating myself and others.

852
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 4: But if that had never happened, what would have happened

853
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 4: is they would have gotten They would have had to

854
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 4: await like a week or two to get the forensic

855
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 4: evidence back, and that forensic evidence would have pointed not

856
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 4: to me, but to this local burglar, and they would

857
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 4: have gone after this local burglar, who, by the way,

858
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 4: in the meantime, had fled the country and was assumed

859
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 4: a false identity because he.

860
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 5: Was the actual murderer and he was off the run.

861
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 4: I didn't leave because I was trying to help the police,

862
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 4: and because I had nothing to hide.

863
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 3: Of course, you and also that was your friend, and

864
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 3: you wanted to help find your friend's murderer. When you

865
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 3: were making this serious, I think back to like parts

866
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 3: of my life that, like you know, I was traumatized

867
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 3: over and I can't It would be very hard for

868
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 3: me to produce something and watch another actress like re

869
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 3: enacting these moments that were so painful. When you worried

870
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 3: that you would be re traumatized doing a show like this, Yeah,

871
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 3: to sit and watch all these moments again, you.

872
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 4: Know, I wasn't worried, But what I did find myself

873
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 4: surprised by was how cathartic it was, because you know, one,

874
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 4: when you're on set, you're surrounded like at least you know,

875
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 4: this does a big this is a big production, like

876
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 4: Disney really like put themselves behind this production and really

877
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 4: believed in this story and kJ Steinberg's create a vision

878
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,320
Speaker 4: for this story, and so like there were like hundreds

879
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 4: of people on set, and I would walk in and

880
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 4: meet all of these people who were just trying to

881
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 4: do it right for the first time.

882
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 5: And it was just deeply, deeply moving to me to

883
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 5: be around so many like talented and thoughtful and artful

884
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:57,399
Speaker 5: people who cared so much about getting it right. And

885
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 5: in the meantime, like, yes, I'm reliving these terrible experiences,

886
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 5: but it's not. It doesn't feel re triggering or re traumatizing.

887
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 5: It feels almost like like the grieving process, Like I

888
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 5: was like grieving truly for the first time for this

889
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 5: young person that I was and for the friend that

890
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 5: I had.

891
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: Were you reminded of how strong you are, well, your

892
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: strength is incredible.

893
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 3: Well I also just love that, like you were, they

894
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 3: took your voice, they took away your voice, and you

895
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 3: get to have it back, and you get to the

896
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 3: fact that you're walking on set and people are so

897
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 3: worried about.

898
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 5: Getting it right.

899
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 3: That must feel like oh, like that moment of like yes.

900
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it was a huge almost surreal, like

901
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 4: surreal relief because of how my voice and my perspective

902
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,359
Speaker 4: had been treated for so long, which was that it

903
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 4: was less than nothing, you know, And so that was deeply,

904
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 4: deeply gratifying, and I felt like I could truly mourn

905
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 4: in a way that I hadn't before, but in terms

906
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 4: of like how strong I am. Like that's one of

907
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 4: those things that makes it feel very present today because

908
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 4: when I, like again, I do not think, I don't

909
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 4: do not go a day without thinking about everything that happened.

910
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 4: And that's in large part because there are moments in

911
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 4: my day when I'm met with a challenge like any

912
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 4: one of us, and that challenge is immediately put into

913
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 4: perspective by the challenges that I have faced in the

914
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 4: past and by the things that I've been able to reclaim. Like,

915
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 4: you know, you have a four year old daughter. I

916
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 4: have a four year old daughter. I have a two

917
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 4: almost two year old son. It can be challenging, like

918
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 4: it demands a lot of you as a human being.

919
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:55,760
Speaker 5: But what a fucking gift.

920
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 4: What a gift to have that opportunity and to like

921
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 4: it has not escaped me, that that I ever that

922
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 4: that was almost stolen from me.

923
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:10,959
Speaker 3: Do you have a time when you think about when

924
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:12,720
Speaker 3: you will tell your children the story?

925
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 4: Well, I thought I would have more time, but because

926
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 4: I don't hide anything from my children, and because I'm

927
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 4: in the middle of working on this TV show about

928
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 4: this experience, it's kick started the conversation. My daughter started

929
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 4: asking me when she was three, Wow, and she was like,

930
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 4: can you mommy, can you tell me the story of

931
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 4: when mommy went to Italy?

932
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 5: And I believe in being.

933
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 4: Age appropriately transparent with kids, and when they ask you

934
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 4: a direct question, you should give them a direct answer.

935
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 4: But you know, she's also three, and so she lives

936
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 4: in the you know, in the space of like fairy tales,

937
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 4: and so I tell it to her almost like it's

938
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,359
Speaker 4: a fairy tale. Like when mommy was young, she went

939
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 4: on an adventure to Perusia, Italy, and she made friends,

940
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 4: but then someone hurt her friend, and then they thought

941
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,760
Speaker 4: Mommy hurt her friend, and so they put her in jail,

942
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 4: and mommy was really sad and alone for a long time.

943
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 4: But then mommy proved that she was innocent and got

944
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 4: to go home, and then she met your daddy, and

945
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 4: then we had you, and it's happily ever after, you know.

946
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 3: Like that, So I just listening to that like makes

947
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 3: me so emotional, honestly, because it's just so I mean,

948
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 3: you're wrapping up this extremely traumatic story and sort of

949
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,399
Speaker 3: making it into this fairy tale so that she can

950
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 3: consume it in a way that like it's age appropriate,

951
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 3: she can kind of understand it. And I just think

952
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 3: that that's as a mom, it's got to be really

953
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,760
Speaker 3: hard to do. It must be painful to do.

954
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 4: You know, she makes it easy because as soon as

955
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:59,280
Speaker 4: it's a fairy tale, now she wants to like play pretend,

956
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 4: and she wants like she wants to play pretend. Mommy

957
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 4: goes to Italy with me, so like sometimes when we

958
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 4: go to the park, like she'll find you know, there's

959
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 4: like bars on the park and she'll be like, I'm like,

960
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 4: how do.

961
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 5: You like not smile at that?

962
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 4: You know, it's just like you know, she just like

963
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 4: flips it around on you, and you're just like, but there's.

964
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: A reclaiming of it, right, there's a reclaiming of it.

965
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: And there's also that what I hear you saying is

966
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 1: in the mindset of like, you know, when when something

967
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 1: that's as important as freedom and privacy is in peril

968
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 1: or you think it might actually go away in perpetuity,

969
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: you see you see it differently and you have a

970
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 1: different relationship with it, and there's a gratitude that comes

971
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 1: just almost immediately, and the mindset does change from like

972
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:57,879
Speaker 1: I have to go do this thing too.

973
00:55:57,960 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 2: I get to do this thing, even.

974
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: If it's horrible thing on some level, or it's some

975
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 1: base thing or some you know, inconsequential thing, because that

976
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 1: very little small thing like loading the dishwasher, yep is,

977
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 1: was something that you couldn't do.

978
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 4: Exactly choose what I get to eat for dinner tonight.

979
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:18,800
Speaker 2: I'm so excited to see this series.

980
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 5: You should.

981
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,280
Speaker 1: I'm actually a little irritated, honestly, because it's not the twentieth.

982
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 4: I'm I'm so excited for you to see it because

983
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:28,439
Speaker 4: it is so good.

984
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,399
Speaker 3: So, you, guys, this project is called The Twisted Tail

985
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 3: of the men an Ox. It is going to air

986
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 3: on Hulu August twentieth, YEP twenty twenty five, and you'll

987
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 3: be able to binge the whole thing. Or are they

988
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 3: releasing like a couple episodes?

989
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,160
Speaker 5: Like how they're they're making it difficult for you.

990
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 4: So the first two episodes release on the first day,

991
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 4: and then every week there's one more episode that comes out.

992
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 3: Oh they're teasing mess.

993
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 2: I think it's smart.

994
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, like I must wait to binge you like the

995
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 4: I think the final episode comes out on October first,

996
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,080
Speaker 4: But you know, I recommend, so.

997
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 2: If I wanted a band, i'd have to wait till then.

998
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're not waiting.

999
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 5: But don't wait.

1000
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 4: Don't wait because it's so good and honestly, it's like

1001
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 4: a very intense story, so I almost feel like you

1002
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 4: are going to need some time to metabolize, yeah, what

1003
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 4: you witness before you move on to the next And

1004
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 4: in the meantime, there is a trailer out, so if

1005
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 4: you want to check out the trailer, you can just

1006
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 4: type that up on YouTube and uh, okay.

1007
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 3: A great Amanda. Thank you so much for being here

1008
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 3: and just being so open with your story. And I

1009
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 3: cannot wait to watch the show. And I hope you

1010
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 3: guys are all like writing it in your calendars right

1011
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 3: now August twentieth, because it's going to be amazing.

1012
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And then I want to have an interactive

1013
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: I want to, I truly do. Maybe we'll figure out

1014
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: how in October is okay?

1015
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:46,479
Speaker 5: That would be fun.

1016
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, meet back here at the same time, because now

1017
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: I got to know what the what the letters were like,

1018
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 1: and then I got to know what the confrontation was like.

1019
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 3: I feel like we need to follow up Amanda after

1020
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 3: the series, so we can go back through and just

1021
00:57:57,080 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 3: kind of pick your brain on all the stuff.

1022
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 4: In the meantime, I recommend checking out my book free

1023
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 4: my search for Meanings, So if you're curious and like

1024
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 4: get in there and and any further questions you have,

1025
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 4: I'm available.

1026
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 2: Amazing. Well, thank you, thank you, thank you so much

1027
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 2: for being with us.

1028
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 3: Such a pleasure.

1029
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 4: Thank you.

1030
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 3: Wow, that was honestly one of my favorite interviews that

1031
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 3: we've done with anybody.

1032
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:26,959
Speaker 1: It's not easy to strike a balance when you're talking

1033
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 1: about something like this, and she struck it. She just

1034
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:36,439
Speaker 1: is so honest, her intentions are so clear as she's

1035
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:40,439
Speaker 1: speaking what she's doing. I mean, I also cannot wait.

1036
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 1: I'm not joking. I cannot wait to see this show.

1037
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 3: No, I can't wait to see either. I think it's

1038
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 3: so interesting. It's almost like it's so fascinating because you

1039
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 3: have watched for so long, Like this was the era

1040
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 3: of like the Nancy Grace, you know, following the all

1041
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 3: the crimes that were happening at the time, and this

1042
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 3: this took on a life of its own, and it

1043
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 3: almost made her a non person when it was being

1044
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 3: reported on. It was almost like she was not treated

1045
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 3: like a human being anymore. And so to be able

1046
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 3: to even sit with her for an hour after I personally,

1047
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 3: I mean I moved here in twenty twenty five, I

1048
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 3: remember in two thousand and seven watching all of this

1049
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 3: in the US, I mean, it was covered daily in

1050
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 3: the news. And to sit with her for an hour

1051
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 3: and just talk to her mom to mom even, I

1052
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 3: just thought it was incredible.

1053
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 1: And my memory of it was also that she was

1054
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 1: very much a person to me, but she was a

1055
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 1: one dimensional representation of one, because that's what I'm saying.

1056
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 2: Pictures of her everywhere, I can't.

1057
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 1: I mean, someone should look up how many people in

1058
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: magazine covers she did, right, it was intense. You saw

1059
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:51,439
Speaker 1: her blue eyes, you saw her dark bob, you saw

1060
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: her all the time, but you never heard from her.

1061
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 2: You never heard her speak. I didn't hear her speak.

1062
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: So to have this now come about and for her to,

1063
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 1: you know, again, be just so smart. And so I'm

1064
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 1: guessing that her storytelling is going to be incredibly compelling.

1065
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna bet on that.

1066
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, she's incredibly compelling. I mean, I've been in

1067
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 3: this hour, so to be in charge of a project

1068
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 3: like this, I love the the idea that it's given

1069
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 3: her some peace and has felt so empowering. And I

1070
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 3: want to listen. I want to know the story with

1071
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 3: the prosecutor because I get the feeling that he didn't

1072
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 3: get off on the roof and say I'm.

1073
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 2: So sorry it was wrong.

1074
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 1: Yeah I know, yeah, And I loved I loved that

1075
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,560
Speaker 1: she You know, so much of healing, healing is what

1076
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 1: you get, You earn healing by grieving, and it sounded

1077
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: like she.

1078
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 2: She really dipped into that, so I'm so excited.

1079
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 1: Well it sounds like Grace, Oh my gosh, she's such

1080
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: a great actress.

1081
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 3: Well it sounds like she's completely done amazing work with this. Well,

1082
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 3: so I can't wait to see two. All right, guys,

1083
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 3: we're gonna wrap it up, but don't forget. August twentieth

1084
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 3: on Hulu watch the Amanda Knock Story and let's call

1085
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 3: it

1086
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 2: The end of the episode.