1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to the MLK Tapes, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 1: are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: in the podcast, and do not represent those of iHeartMedia, 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, or their employees. Listener discretion is advised. I 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: went back to Saigon for a break. I was at 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: a party with some other journalists and friends, and the 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: government was increasingly suspicious because I didn't go to any 9 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: of the press free things, and I was out in 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: the country all of the time, not really under anyone's control. 11 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: So that's a party. A young Vietnamese woman approached me 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: and tempted to set up a conversation and become social. 13 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: I was just so angry at that point in time 14 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: by what I was seeing that I told her what 15 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: I was seeing. And the next morning I was called 16 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: down to Commander Madison's office. He was CIA, obviously, and 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: he said to me, I understand, we're a bit worried 18 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: about you. You're ound in the country a lot, you've 19 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: been injured, you probably have some severe pain. Maybe maybe 20 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: it's time for you to go home. I called the 21 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,559 Speaker 1: Union Hall. I said a matter of life and death. 22 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: I said, I think these people are planning to kill 23 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: doctor King. The authorities would parade. Oh, we found a 24 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,479 Speaker 1: gun the James L. Ray bought in Birmingham that killed 25 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 1: doctor King. Except it wasn't the gun that killed doctor King. 26 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: James Lvy was a pawn or the official story from 27 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio intended for TV. The plan was to 28 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: get King to the city because they wanted it handled 29 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: in Memphis four day and named Catlet. And I've lived 30 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: with it alone. Monsieur and the base care for me. 31 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: The lawd told me to not the word. I've been 32 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: willing to tell it all my life. I'm Bill Clayburg 33 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: and this is the MLK tapes. At the top of 34 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: the episode, we heard Bill Pepper telling how he was 35 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: invited to leave Vietnam. Pepper did heed the warning, and 36 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: he did leave, but he took with him photographs of 37 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 1: horribly burned children that were published in Rampart's magazine, along 38 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,119 Speaker 1: with Pepper's accusatory article on the American conduct of the war, 39 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: which is how we came to meet Martin Luther King. 40 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 1: Throughout this podcast, we've come to know of Pepper's forty 41 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: year investigation into the murder of his friend. In this episode, 42 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: we will pull the camera back a little and take 43 00:02:52,480 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: a look at his extraordinary life. Bill Pepper was the 44 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: only child of a pair of Irish immigrants from County Monaghan. 45 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: They settled in Yonkers, New York, where his father worked 46 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: as a repairman on the city's trolley line. Bill went 47 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: to public school and one day, when he was fifteen, 48 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: he was pitching in a game and in the stands 49 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: was a wrestling coach from the elite Trinity School in 50 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: New York City. He was impressed by Bill's curveball, which 51 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: for someone his age was a thing of beauty. So 52 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: we approached Bill after the game, saying that he thought 53 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: the Trinity could use a player like him. Of course, 54 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: the Pepper family didn't have the money needed for a 55 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: school like Trinity, but this man thought that something could 56 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: be worked out. He introduced me to the headmaster and 57 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: we talked, and I ended up pitching for Trinity and 58 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: captaining the baseball team, the basketball team, and the cross 59 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: country team at Trinity. Pepper was good at every sport, 60 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: but where he really stood out was baseball, specifically his pitching. 61 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: It wasn't overpowering stage, so I had to be able 62 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: to move the ball around, change speeds. Pepper doesn't remember 63 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: now his record at Trinity, but he won all his games, 64 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: and that attracted the notice of the World Telegram and Son, 65 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: an old New York daily, which each year gave an 66 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: award for the best young baseball player in the Tri 67 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: state area. Pepper won the award that year and it 68 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: was presented in a small ceremony at home plate before 69 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 1: the game at Yankee Stadium. And who would hand him 70 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: the award the Yankee star player Mickey Mantle. Mickey gave 71 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 1: me the award, and Mickey said to me at the 72 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: stadium when he was given he said, Bill, I understand 73 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: you're gonna be up here with us soon. I love 74 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: not on your life. You got more talent in your 75 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: little finger, got my whole body, so I've got to 76 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: find a day job. And he looked at it was 77 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: short of nut because all he heard was, you know, 78 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: I threw one hitters, two hitters, no hitters. I had 79 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: a batting average over five hundred most of the season. 80 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: Perhaps it was being handed an award at Yankee Stadium, 81 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: but somebody at Trinity apparently knew somebody out in Brooklyn, 82 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: and one day Bill Pepper received an invitation to go 83 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: out to Ebbott's field and pitch batting practice for the 84 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,239 Speaker 1: Brooklyn Dodgers. Bill remembers pitching to Don Newcombe, Pee Wee Reese, 85 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: and Gil Hodges, among other legends. He called it a 86 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: lesson in humility. They had it hard. There were another level. 87 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: With his athletic abilities now out there for all to see, 88 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: a scholarship for college was a near certainty. But where 89 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: turns out that along with his physical prowess, Bill had smarts. 90 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: So the scholarship that he accepted brought him to Columbia University, 91 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: where he played baseball and basketball. Pepper loved basketball, and 92 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: he had modeled his game after Boston Celtics star Bob Kuzi, 93 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: who was the master of ball control. At that time 94 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: in college basketball, there was no such thing as a 95 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: shot clock. Teams could freeze the play and the entire 96 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: game by keeping the ball away from opponents and not shooting. 97 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: It was positively awful to watch. Like most teams, Columbia 98 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: had his own plan for freezing the ball, and it 99 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: required a lot of passing. But Bill had his own 100 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 1: ideas on how to do this, I got into a disagreement, 101 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: shall we say, with Lou Rossini, who was a coach 102 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: at the time. I was an avid student of Bobby Kozis, 103 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: and I learned how to freeze the ball myself. So 104 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: I froze in one ball game. I froze a ball 105 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: for a couple of minutes, and he got furious, pulled 106 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: me out of the game and said, we don't play 107 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: ball like that in the Ivy League. But the truth was, 108 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: they did play ball like that in the Ivy League. 109 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 1: Princeton in particular was famous for it. But Pepper didn't 110 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: much like being talked to that way, so he left 111 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: the basketball team. But come springtime he was back out 112 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,559 Speaker 1: on the pitcher's mount. Usually in baseball, the catcher calls 113 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,119 Speaker 1: the game, that is the your signals to the pitcher 114 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: what pitch he used to throw. Pepper thought that was silly. 115 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: He was the one who would throw the ball, so 116 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: why shouldn't he be the one to say what it 117 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: was going to be? So he turned to practice upside 118 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: down at Columbia. I called all my games myself. I 119 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: gave to catch a two signals what the pitcher was 120 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: going to be, and wherever's going to go. The kind 121 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: of success that Pepper was having didn't go unnoticed. He 122 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: began to get feelers from scouts representing major league teams, 123 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: but Pepper was good enough to know that he wasn't 124 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: good enough, and the White Shocks did want to sign me. 125 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: At one point, I realized if I took that I'd 126 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: be down in the miners, probably in c or d 127 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: for three four years and never make it. So I 128 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: figured I'd better find out something else to do with 129 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: my life. Pepper would go on to find many things 130 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: to do with his life, but baseball was to open 131 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: one more door. I continued to play baseball at Columbia, 132 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: and in May of nineteen fifty nine, myself and one 133 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: other player from the team were chosen to go to 134 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: Cuba the Cuban sports festival that Fidel Casha was running, 135 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: and so I played in Cuba in that festival. But 136 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: I used to come to all the games. He's a great, 137 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: great baseball fan, and of course a great picture. Fidel was, 138 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: in my view, far better picture than I was. So 139 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,559 Speaker 1: I stayed in Cuba after the team left. I spoke 140 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: the language, I spent some time with Fidell and minimum 141 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: amount of time with che Guevara. He was not forthcoming 142 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: outwards the way that Fidel in particular was, but he 143 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: was a very serious guy and you had no doubt 144 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: that he was committed to the revolution. The following year, 145 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: Pepper went for graduate studies to the University of London. 146 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: When they found out that he could play basketball, he 147 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: was quickly put on the team. They then won most 148 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: their games and all of the important ones until the end. 149 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: We won the national championship. That year. We played in 150 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: the internationals and didn't do very well. We didn't win, 151 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: We lost in France. In London, Bill had occasion to 152 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: hang out with journalist Clark Mullenhoff, who would tease Bill 153 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: about coming from the most corrupt city in the country, 154 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: his hometown of Yonkers. This surprise Pepper because he was 155 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: just a kid when he lived there. So when he 156 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: got home, he went to the editor of the local 157 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: newspaper and asked if it were true. He said yes, 158 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: he said, this is one of the most corrupt cities 159 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: in the East Coast. Has been run by a boss, 160 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: Tommy Brogan, for about fifty years at that point, and 161 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: his alliance with organized crime is very clear. Pepper asked 162 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: if there was anything that could be done. He said, well, 163 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: it used to be a citizens union. If you want 164 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: to look into it. Why. He gave me all the 165 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: details and I did, and I restarted the Citizens Junior. 166 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: At the time, Pepper was attending the University of Pennsylvania 167 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: Law school and he was coming home on weekends to 168 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: work on Yonker's public life. Eventually, the politics became so 169 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: consuming that Pepper had to drop out of school, but 170 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: the work paid off, at least for Yonkers. I worked 171 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: on the Citizens JUNI and we eventually took control of 172 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 1: the city of Yonkers, and I refused to run for office. 173 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: I was able to put good people into office. I 174 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: was twenty four years old when we did that. The 175 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: successful fight against an entrenched political machine made people take notice. 176 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: One of those was Robert Kennedy, who had decided to 177 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: run for US Senate from the state of New York. 178 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: Bob Kennedy came to me and asked me to run 179 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: his Westchester County campaign, so I became his Citizens Chairman. 180 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: I have to confess I didn't like the Bob Kennedy 181 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: I knew in nineteen sixty four and was going to 182 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: break with the campaign because he was arrogant. He ended 183 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: up dealing with the local political machine that we had 184 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: overturned to take control. So Pepper told the Kennedy people 185 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: that he wanted to quit, but the campaign had a 186 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: good thing in him and they knew it. So they 187 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: sent in a heavy hitter, a man who had been 188 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: very close to JFK when he was president. They sent 189 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: Teddy Sorenson. They sent Teddy in to convince me to 190 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: stay in the campaign. Then sixty four I handled Bobby's 191 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: campaign in Westchester County. But I was getting at that 192 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: point in sixty four sixty five increasingly aware of the 193 00:11:46,880 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: Vietnam War and concerned about it. So Pepper decided to 194 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: go to Vietnam. He took a leave of absence from 195 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: his position teaching political science at Mercy College. He still 196 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: didn't have the money, but when he described to a 197 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: wealthy friend what he wanted to do, she offered to 198 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: pay for the journey. She was also well connected, and 199 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: on her say so, managed to get letters of endorsement 200 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: from the very Catholic Cardinal Spellman and the equally conservative 201 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: Dewitwallace of The Reader's Digest. Those letters provided the mona 202 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: fines Pepper would need when he arrived in Nam, I 203 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 1: got my credentials as a journalist that gave me access 204 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: to the entire country by means of military C one 205 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: thirty aircraft, and I would fly to various points of 206 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: the country that I wanted to see. I saw more 207 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: than I bargained for, farmers and rural people burned to 208 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,719 Speaker 1: the ground. I was seeing children badly injured by the 209 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: napalm and the white phosphorus burning. And I was seeing 210 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: total devastation among the civilian population who themselves were not 211 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: involved in the war. I made a lot of tape recordings, 212 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: took a lot of photographs. At one point, Pepper was 213 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: in an army transport flying into the central Highlands town 214 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: of Plakup when his plane was hit by groundfire and 215 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: the pilots suddenly lost control of the aircraft. It made 216 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: a crash landing, and Pepper sustained injuries to his back 217 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: that had plagued him the rest of his life. Pepper 218 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: was in pain and went back to Saigon for a break. 219 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: And we will repeat here what he said at the 220 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: top of the episode about how he had aroused questions 221 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: about his loyalties the government was increasingly suspicious because I 222 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: didn't go to any of the press frey things, and 223 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: I was out in the country all of the time, 224 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 1: not really under anyone's control. I was at a party 225 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: with some other journalists and friends, and a young Vietnamese 226 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: woman approached me and tempted to set up a conversation 227 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: and become social. I was just so angry at that 228 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: point in time by what I was seeing that I 229 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: told her what I was seeing. And the next morning 230 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: I was called down to Commander Madison's office. He was CIA, obviously, 231 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: and he said to me, I understand we're a bit 232 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: worried about you. You're ound in the country a lot, 233 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: You've been injured, you probably have some severe pain. Maybe 234 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: it's time for you to go home. Pepper agreed it 235 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: was near time to go home, but he first wanted 236 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: to see what was happening in a certain rural province. 237 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: Could the military get him there by Chopper The answer 238 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: was no, but they would agree to achieve. Pepper said 239 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: he'd let them know. When I talked to some of 240 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: my colleagues, they said, Bill, the last guy took good 241 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: cheap from them, was found dead by the side of 242 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: the road. So we suggest you read the handwriting on 243 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: the wall and you get out of here, because they've 244 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: obviously worried about you. And by worried about him, they 245 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: didn't mean they were worried about his health. They were 246 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: worried about what he was doing, who he was talking to, 247 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: what he was taking pictures of. So Pepper decided to 248 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: heed the warning, and he left Vietnam carrying a satchel 249 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: with his trove of tape recordings and undeveloped film. But 250 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: who in the US would care to do anything with them? 251 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: Certainly not the Reader's Digest, and as it turned out, 252 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: not Cardinal Spellman either. Pepper returned to his post at 253 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: Mercy College and talked to the president of the college 254 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: into sponsoring a debate on the war. I pressed for 255 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: Mercy College to hold an event on Vietnam, and we 256 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: scheduled at large debate eight that involved that anti war activist, 257 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: myself and the ambassador to the United Nations from Vietnam. 258 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: He came up from New York, and when it was 259 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: my turn to speak, I just destroyed everything he said 260 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: about legitimacy of the effort anti communist and efforts and 261 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: all of that, and I just destroyed them. Very shortly thereafter, 262 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: Cardinal Spellman called the president of the college and insisted 263 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: that I be fired from my teaching post. She called 264 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: me in and she was virtually in tears. Mercy College 265 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: in those days was just beginning, and I built the 266 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: political science department, and when I handled a Kennedy campaign, 267 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: I brought the Kennedy sisters and the mother there, so 268 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: they had a high regard for what I was about. 269 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: She was in such a plight because she had been 270 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: directly ordered by the cardinal to fire me, and she 271 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: didn't want to do it. But she said, but Bill, 272 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: they give us eighty percent of our budget. I said, Sister, 273 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: her name was Atheldreda, said sister, Etheldreda, don't worry about it. 274 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: I'll just resign. After Pepper returned from Vietnam, he gave 275 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: a few lectures and did a little writing on the 276 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: war about the crimes he felt that were being committed. 277 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: But nobody, even in the alternate or progressive media, wanted 278 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:31,919 Speaker 1: anything to do with the utter horror of what he 279 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: had witnessed and recorded in Vietnam. The stories that were 280 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: printed were ones that had come out of press briefings 281 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: and had to do with strategic hamlets, body counts, and 282 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: the ever hopeful light at the end of the tunnel. Finally, 283 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: Warren Hankel of Ramparts came to me and I guess 284 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: autumn of sixty six, and he asked me to do 285 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: a piece for Ramparts magazine. I was closeted for two 286 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: weeks at the Algonquin Hotel in New York and I 287 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: wrote that piece, and I provided them with all of 288 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: my photographs. The article that Bill Pepper wrote for Ramparts 289 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: was titled The Children of Vietnam. It was virtually the 290 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: first time that the horrors of the war had been 291 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: put on display in the United States, and the horrors 292 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 1: belonged to us because we were the ones who used 293 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: the undiscriminating weapon that would bring fire from the sky. 294 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: As reported by Pepper, the official US position was quote 295 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: napalm is used against selected targets, such as caves and 296 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: reinforced supply areas. Casualties are predominantly persons involved in Communist 297 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:49,360 Speaker 1: military operations. But as Pepper would document in his travels 298 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: about Vietnam and his visitations to what hospitals were still functioning, 299 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: these terrible things did not fall upon the unlucky few, 300 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: but upon civilians in great numbers. Tens of thousands of 301 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: children were either killed or horrifically scarred. As Pepper said 302 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: in his article Napalm and its more horrible companion, white 303 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: phosphors liquidized young flesh and carve it into grotesque forms. 304 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: The little figures are afterwards often scarcely human in appearance, 305 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: and one can not be confronted with the monstrous effects 306 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: of the burning without being totally shaken. I never left 307 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: the tiny victims without losing composure. The initial urge to 308 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: reach out and soothe the hurt was restrained by the 309 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 1: fear that ash like skin would crumble in my fingers. 310 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: If he were not to be remembered for anything else, 311 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: Bill Pepper should be remembered and honored for sending himself 312 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: the Vietnam and coming home with the truth about what 313 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: we were doing there. But the article on Vietnam began 314 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: a whole new episode in Bill Pepper's life. It brought 315 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: him into the presence of another man who was wrestling 316 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: with his moral duty. So the Ramparts piece came out 317 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: in January of nineteen sixty seven. That was what Martin 318 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: King noticed as he wasn't going on a trip to photographs. 319 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: I think caught his attention, and he read the article 320 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 1: later and asked to meet with me. Pepper and King 321 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: first met in Providence, Rhode Island, where King was speaking 322 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: at the chapel of Brown University. Both men were continuing 323 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 1: on to Boston, so King asked Pepper to ride with him. 324 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: I rode to Boston with him. I showed him whatever 325 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: additional material that I had at that time, and he wept. 326 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: He literally wept in the car. He saw all of 327 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: this horror that was being done by his government. He 328 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: couldn't believe it. Because his article and photographs had finally 329 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: been published in a national magazine, Bill Pepper suddenly became 330 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: a voice for the anti war movement. And I don't 331 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: remember that date, but I then agreed in April of 332 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven to be a keynote speaker at a 333 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 1: march that went from Central Park down to the United Nations. 334 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: It was a huge marsh quarter of a million or 335 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: so people. Pepper was also chosen to introduce Martin Luther 336 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: King at that rally, no small honor. I was there 337 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: that day. I don't remember Pepper's introduction but I do 338 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: remember King's booming voice, stop the bombing, Let us save 339 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: our national honor, stop the bombing, and stop the wall. 340 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: After the rally in New York, Pepper was asked by 341 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: King and others to become the executive director of the 342 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: National Conference for New Politics. Pepper accepted the purpose of 343 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: the NCNP was to be an umbrella group that will 344 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: unite the many peace and justice groups into a formidable 345 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: political force. Towards that end, a convention was proposed in 346 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: Chicago on Labor Day weekend. Pepper spent his entire summer 347 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: organizing that event. We built this convention and it took 348 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: place in Chicago over Labor Day, and doctor King agreed 349 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: to give the keynote address. We were very naive, very 350 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: naive at that time. I was barely thirty years old, 351 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: with rough and ready political experience in the from Yonkers 352 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: in New York, but nothing significant beyond Yonkers. And when 353 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: a Black Caucus was formed, we thought that was a 354 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: good thing because all black delegates would unite, there would 355 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 1: be a positive force. What we didn't realize was that 356 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: the Johnson administration, working with Richard Daley, the Mayor of Chicago, 357 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: would put together a very sophisticated disruptive team whose whole 358 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: purpose was to break up the convention, and they seated, 359 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: And we would learn later that many of the members 360 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: or members of the Blackstone Rangers, a gang and Chicago 361 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: who daily brought onto the scene greatly discouraged by what 362 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: had happened in Chicago. Pepper would continue with his anti 363 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: war activities, and so did King, but he also began 364 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 1: to plan for Poor People's March on Washington to be 365 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: held the following summer. King wanted economic justice to take 366 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: its place alongside of civil rights, and the energy that 367 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,959 Speaker 1: was building around the sanitation workers strike in Memphis was 368 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 1: the kind of force that King hoped to harness for 369 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 1: his march. But Martin King was murdered, and for Bill Pepper, 370 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: that was the day the music died. I heard on 371 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: the radio that he had been assassinated. I went down 372 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: to Memphis with Benjamin Spock. We went for the purpose 373 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: of the memorial and also trying to keep the torch 374 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: alive for a movement that was going to try to 375 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: go on without him. Pepper and Spock followed the fallen 376 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: King to Atlanta, where he would be buried. There he 377 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: ran into Bobby Kennedy, on whose Senate campaign he had 378 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: worked four years earlier. Bobby asked me and others to 379 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: come up to this hotel to discuss his presidential campaign, 380 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: and I said, no, I'm through his politics. So after 381 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: turning a baseball into an IVY league, education, cleaning up 382 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: the city of Yonkers, working for Bobby Kennedy, hanging out 383 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: with Fidel Castro, sending himself to Vietnam, pissing off Cardinal Spellman, 384 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: and working for Martin Luther King, Bill Pepper decided to 385 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: leave politics, sit back, and devote himself to education. But 386 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: even in that he couldn't keep from stirring the pot. 387 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy three, he wrote a book on education 388 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: titled The Self Managed Child that was published in hardcover 389 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: by Harper and Rowe. In the book, Pepper joined the 390 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: schooling debates at that time by warning about what he 391 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: saw as education's most common mistake, it's suffocating feeling of 392 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: self importance. And Pepper had some learning of his own 393 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: to continue for. As you may remember, he had dropped 394 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: out of law school at the University of Pennsylvania in 395 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one to devote himself full time to the 396 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: political fight in Yonkers. So in nineteen seventy five he 397 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: went back to law school, this time at Boston College, 398 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: where he graduated with honors a year later. So he 399 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: had barely become a licensed attorney when he got the 400 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: phone call from Ralph Abernathy asking if he would join 401 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: him in meeting with James ol Ray, the convicted killer 402 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: of his friend Martin Luther King. Pepper said he would, 403 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: but only after he had read up on the case. 404 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 1: When Pepper and n Abernathy traveled to Brushy Mountain State 405 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: Prison in the summer of seventy eight, they were joined 406 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: by Mark Lane, Ray's attorney at the time. Lane, in 407 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: his book Rushed to Judgment, had been one of the 408 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: very first to stand up and say that the murder 409 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: of President Kennedy had been a high level conspiracy, and 410 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: Lane was just as convinced that Ray had been set 411 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: up to take the blame for the murder of King, 412 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,239 Speaker 1: and he appreciated the intelligence that Pepper had brought to 413 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: his meeting with Ray. Soon Lane would call Pepper and 414 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: ask for a favor. Mark Lane called me and asked 415 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: me if I would represent Jerry Ray before the House 416 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: Select Committee on assassinations, and Mark was James ol Ray's 417 00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,479 Speaker 1: lawyer and just fighting a very difficult battle for James, 418 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: and he also fell in to be Jerry's lawyer, and 419 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 1: I asked him why he couldn't continue, and he said 420 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: that Bob Blakey wouldn't allow him to represent both James 421 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: and Jerry, and so Jerry needed separate counsel and he 422 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: thought I would be an ideal guy to do that. 423 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: At the time, the House Select Committee was plotting his 424 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 1: way through its version of the murders of John Kennedy 425 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: and Martin Luther King. When originally formed, its director was 426 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: to be Dick Sprague, a tough criminal prosecutor out of Philadelphia, 427 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: but Sprague made it clear that he wanted the committee 428 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: to have access to all government files, including those of 429 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: the FBI and the CIA. Suddenly there was an orchestrated 430 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: smear campaign to get rid of Sprague, and it worked. 431 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: Bob Blakey replaced Dick Sprague from Philadelphia because Sprague had 432 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: made the point that he was going after all government documentation, 433 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: including CIA documents, with respect to the killing of Martin King, 434 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,959 Speaker 1: and that was something that they were not going to allow. 435 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: So they put Blakey in who came from Cornell. I 436 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: believe at that time Blakey was much more compliant. Pepper 437 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: thought about Lane's proposal to represent james brother Jerry, and 438 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: after talking to a few colleagues, he decided to accept. 439 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: So I agreed to represent Jerry Ray on the condition 440 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: that I could bring Floe Kennedy, my black human rights lawyer. 441 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: Many people may not remember Florence Kennedy. I think she 442 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: was the first black graduate of Columbia University Law School. 443 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: She was a remarkable woman, totally committed to human rights, 444 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: and I worked with Flow on a number of matters. 445 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: So I went down to Washington represented Jerry with Flow Kennedy. 446 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: We represented Jerry, and it became very evident to us 447 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: early on as they were only there for the purpose 448 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: of incriminating James and trying to use Jerry without purpose. 449 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: From their questions, one can deduce that the House Select 450 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: Committee was attempting to connect Jerry Ray to the murder 451 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: of Martin Luther King, either as a direct participant or 452 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: as an accessory. There were series of questions seeking to 453 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: connect Jerry with James's successful escape from Jefferson City Penitentiary. 454 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: We have searched and only been able to come up 455 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: with the recording of a small piece of Jerry Ray's 456 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: testimony before the committee when he was represented by Bill 457 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: Pepper and Flo Kennedy. We are going to play a 458 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: slice from that recording, not for its procedural content, but 459 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: so that we may hear the voices of both of 460 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: these volunteer attorneys and what would be Bill Pepper's first 461 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: public appearance in his forty year investigation of the murder 462 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: of his friend Martin King. We are going to object 463 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: to the inclusion of any of author McMillan's notes out 464 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: of context. If the author's notes are to be admitted 465 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: into the record of the proceedings of this committee, we 466 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: will request that the entire vestige of his work to 467 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: be admitted, that nothing be taken out of context, and 468 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: we will request to see all of those notes ourselves. 469 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: Not to do otherwise. To take an author or an 470 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: investigator's partial research and to put it in is highly prejudicial, 471 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: particularly in light of the total scope of mister McMillan's work. Sir, 472 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: on the same point, I really am not trying to 473 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: be tendentious, but it is extremely important to note that 474 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: where you have a committee hearing which relies so heavily 475 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: on hearsay people who no one has an opportunity to 476 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: cross examine. There must be some effort on the part 477 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: of this committee to establish the authenticity, the bias, the 478 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: political conflict of interests that might obtain between a writer, 479 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: a journalist, a witness. In this circumstance, we have no 480 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: opportunity to confront this witness. We have no opportunity. And 481 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: this is a part of the nature of this one survey. 482 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: In this inquiry, besides trying to tie Jerry to the 483 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: escape from prison by brother James, the committee set out 484 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: to substantiate the charge that James had not gotten his 485 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: money from some mysterious fellow named Raoul, but had instead 486 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: gotten that move around money from a bank robbery. Around 487 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: that same time, the page one column ward article in 488 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: the New York Times by a journalist called Wendell Rawls 489 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: Junior appeared, which set that whole hsc a scenario out 490 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: how James got his money from the Alton, Illinois bank robbery. 491 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: When the Times article came out about their special investigation 492 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 1: into the Alton robbery, Bill Pepper was already on for 493 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: representing Jerry Ray. So the day before he went down 494 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: to Washington, he made a couple of phone calls well 495 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: prior to my appearance before that committee. I called the 496 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: president of the bank that was robbed, and I called 497 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: the chief of police in Alton, and both of them 498 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: indicated to me that the Ray brothers had never been 499 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: suspects in that case, as they knew who the perpetrators were, 500 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: they just didn't have enough evidence to prosecute them. And 501 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: they said, not only had they not been contacted by 502 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: law enforcement or House Select Committee investigators, but they also 503 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: had not been contacted by Wendell Rowles Junior, or the 504 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: New York Times or anyone from the New York Times. 505 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: What follows is an interchange concerning the Alton bank robbery 506 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: between James Spicer, counsel for the House Committee, and Bill Pepper, 507 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: representing Jerry Ray. We don't have the recording, but we 508 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: do have the transcript, and it goes like this, mister Spicer. 509 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: One of the areas that is puzzling the American public 510 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: concerning James ol Ray is how he funded himself during 511 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: that period when he was a fugitive immediately following his 512 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: escape from Jefferson City, State prison, And we would like 513 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: to question Jerry Ray concerning the Bank of Alton robbery 514 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: for the reason that there is strong suspicion that this 515 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: robbery may have been the source of funding for James Olray. Pepper, 516 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: mister Chairman. Point of clarification, on whose part is their 517 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: strong suspicion? Spicer, based on evidence provided to this committee, Pepper, 518 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: mister Chairman, on behalf of the witness and the committee 519 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: search for truth? Is the Committee aware of the fact 520 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: that the witness recently surrendered himself personally to the authorities 521 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: in Alton, offered to waive the statute of limitations, offered 522 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: to have himself available for prosecution at this time for 523 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: that crime, and was informed that he was not then 524 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,719 Speaker 1: and never had been, a suspect in the Alton bank robbery. 525 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: And as late as yesterday the Chief of Police in 526 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: conversation with me, indicated that the witness, Jerry Ray, is 527 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: not and never has been a suspect in the bank robbery. 528 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: Is the Committee aware of that? Bill Pepper today is 529 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: still angry about how the House Committee tried to dodge 530 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: and bury his revelations about the robbery. So when that 531 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: was raised at the hearing, I told him as about 532 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: of a point of order, that what I had done 533 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 1: and what I had uncovered, and that not only was 534 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: the article false, but they're pointing to the Ray brothers 535 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: as perpetrators of that crime was false, and that was 536 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: convincing enough for them to immediately drop it. So they 537 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: didn't proceed with it. But if you read the hc 538 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: A report to this day, you will see that they 539 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: still take that line at the This is where James 540 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: got his money. When the House Select Committee was being 541 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: formed and the idea was put forward that it should 542 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: include not just the murder of John Kennedy but also 543 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: that of Martin Luther King, certain people in the Memphis 544 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: Police Department began to wonder if their secret intelligence files 545 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: might be subpoenaed by the committee, so they decided to 546 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,879 Speaker 1: burn them. Mark Lane, raised attorney at the time, caught 547 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: wind of it and the ACLU filed a petition to 548 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: the court to stop the burning, but it was too late. 549 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: Scores of boxes of files of the Intelligence Division of 550 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: the Memphis Police were incinerated, but the Memphis Police need 551 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: not have worried. The committee under Bob Blakey didn't want 552 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 1: to look at government files When I asked Pepper, as 553 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 1: someone who had seen the committee work firsthand, up close, 554 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: what he thought, he didn't hesitate. They never did a 555 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: thorough investigation, and they discredited information I was highly incredible 556 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: and should have been a part of their report and 557 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:08,879 Speaker 1: their conclusions. They discredited Johnny McFerrin, for example, who overheard 558 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: Loberto and in his place of business talking about shooting King. 559 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: They also denied Liberto's connection with organized crime, the fact 560 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,919 Speaker 1: that the rooming house bathroom was empty and the door 561 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: was opened minutes before the shooting, as evident in a 562 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: taxi driver who would come to pick up Charlie Stevens. 563 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: The fact that doctor King's room was changed from protected 564 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: one two o two to an exposed balcony room three 565 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: oh six, and failure to perform to form all black 566 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: security unit which always protected doctor King in Memphis. All 567 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: of these facts and more were ignored by the House 568 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: Select Committee. It was not a serious investigation. It was 569 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: investigation designed to cover up the truth that this kind 570 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: of evidence. While a great deal of what the House 571 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 1: Committee did and how they went about it was worthy 572 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: of disdain, it didn't mean that everyone on the committee 573 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: was in on a cover up, It's just that its 574 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: ultimate conclusions seemed already baked into the cake. For example, 575 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: when investigators from the Committee began to look into the 576 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: stories about rays supposed hatred of blacks in general and 577 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 1: King in particular, they discovered that most of these stories, 578 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,280 Speaker 1: which were thin to begin with, were either unreliable or exaggerated, 579 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: so much so that the Committee had to conclude that 580 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: Ray's given motive of hatred, which had been blindly accepted 581 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: for ten years, was not in any way supported by 582 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: the evidence. Did that make them wonder if Ray had 583 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,760 Speaker 1: really killed King? No, they just gave him a new motive, 584 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 1: that he killed King to collect a reward, something for 585 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: which there was no evidence at all. When the Committee 586 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: was finished questioning rays attorney or Foreman, they came to 587 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: the remarkable conclusion that nothing that Foreman said could be trusted. 588 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: Did they then wonder, perhaps if Foreman was working for 589 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: someone other than Ray when he pushed his way into 590 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: the case. No, they just shrugged it off. When the 591 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 1: Committee looked at Ray's exchange of one gun for another, 592 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: they concluded correctly that the exchange almost certainly signaled the 593 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 1: involvement of another person. Could that person have been the 594 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: handler Raoul, As Ray said, it was no because they 595 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: were set to find that Ray, acting alone, had killed King, 596 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,919 Speaker 1: So when evidence of another person appears, the next best 597 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: thing was that maybe he had help from his brother 598 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: that would keep it all in the family. Did they 599 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 1: consider that the gun exchange might have been needed because 600 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: the weapon was not to kill King, but merely needed 601 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,439 Speaker 1: to be the same caliber of the rifle that would 602 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: kill King, so that Ray could then be tied to 603 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: the murder. That was never considered. So even when they 604 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 1: stumbled upon the truth, they couldn't see it for what 605 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: it was because they were already married to the idea 606 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: of Ray killing King. When the House Select Committee was formed, 607 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: its stated purpose was to use the power and authority 608 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: of the Congress to look into these crimes so that 609 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 1: they could assure the American people that they had been 610 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: properly investigated and that the citizens had been told the truth. 611 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: So if that's the case, what is the need for 612 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: executive sessions and secret files? Sessions and files that will 613 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: only be opened after sixty years have passed since the murder. 614 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: If then, because without a reliable inventory as to what 615 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,720 Speaker 1: is in the files, they can easily be cleansed before 616 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: they are opened. The simple truth is, if James Earl Ray, 617 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: acting alone had really murdered Martin Luther King, there would 618 00:39:50,520 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: be no need for secret files coming up. On the 619 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,720 Speaker 1: final two episodes of the MLK tapes, mister Hut looked 620 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: over and he says, John, I've just about had a 621 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,359 Speaker 1: bellyfull of the Kennedy boys. They both needed to go. 622 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: He was for a McCarthys right wing vision of America. 623 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 1: My aunt had been the victim of ja Egger Hoover, 624 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: you know, lying to her. So the main focus of 625 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: that meeting was really trying to figure out how to 626 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 1: take down Martin Luther King. Hoover used to send in 627 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 1: Tulson on a regular basis to meet with odkindy Odkin's 628 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: family to Dixie Mafia people, the plan was to get 629 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: King to the city because Tulson said that they wanted 630 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 1: it handled in Memphis for dead and inm caate Hamlet. 631 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: So apparently come now Mover. You know, I don't think 632 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: why I was doing that on his own. I called 633 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: him and I said, mister Hoover, I just got a 634 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: telex message from our Memphis office said that Martin Luther 635 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: King was shot while standing on a belt Kenny in 636 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: that city, and his immediate reaction to me was is 637 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: he dead? Thanks for listening to The MLK Tapes, a 638 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. This podcast is not 639 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: specifically endorsed by the King Family or the King of State. 640 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: The Email Ka Tapes is written and hosted by Bill Klaper. 641 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams are executive producers on behalf 642 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Fonk. Donald 643 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: Albright and Payne Lindsay are executive producers on behalf of 644 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV with producers Jamie Albright and Meredith Steadman. Original 645 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,919 Speaker 1: music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Cover art by Mister 646 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: Soul two one six with photography by Artemis Jenkins. Special 647 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: thanks to Owen Rosenbaum and Grace Royer at Uta, the 648 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: Nor Group, Beck Median Marketing, Envisioned Business Management, and Station sixteen. 649 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 1: If you have questions, you can visit our website, The 650 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: email katapes dot com. We posted photos and videos related 651 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: to the podcast on our social media accounts. You can 652 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: check them out at the email K Tapes For more 653 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. Please visit the iHeartRadio app, 654 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.