1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Also media. Hello everyone. 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 2: My name is Dan al Kurd and this is it 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 2: could happen here. 4 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: I'm an associate professor of political science and a researcher 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: of Arab and Palestinian politics. Today on the podcast we 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: have Danielle Kanter and she'll be talking to us about 7 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: mutual aid work in Israel, leftist politics at Israel, and 8 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: her personal journey. 9 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being on the show. Hi. 10 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: So, yeah, if you'd like to introduce us to yourself 11 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: and your organization, Culture of Solidarity, that would be fantastic. 12 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:40,959 Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah, Hi, I'm Danielle. I run with a beautiful 13 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 2: community mutual aid called Culture of Solidarity. I don't know 14 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 2: if people here are familiar with mutual aid work or 15 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 2: if I should give a little explanation about that. I 16 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 2: mean you can give a shpiel, yeah, shpiel. Yeah. Just 17 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 2: basically kind of caring for your community through different like 18 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 2: aid programs while resisting the systems that kind of preserve 19 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: their poverty and their oppression. That's how I view what 20 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 2: mutual aid work is. And yeah, so we run a 21 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 2: mutual aid It runs in many forms, but mostly it's 22 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: we have a food security program that supports kind of 23 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 2: the people that fall in between the cracks of the 24 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 2: systems within Israeli and Palestine. Well, obviously the systems within 25 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 2: Israel and in Palestine. We work mainly in Area C 26 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 2: in the West Bank in Massapalieta. Yeah, so we do 27 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 2: food security, like food packs that are culturally appropriate for 28 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 2: each community, receiving them based off of what they are asking, 29 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 2: whether it's diapers, baby formula, you know, fit to each holiday. 30 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 2: Now we just finished or we're still in the midst 31 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: of a Romandan annual campaign where they're all going to 32 00:01:54,960 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 2: be boxes fit for the holiday and we host well, well, 33 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 2: we had a community center for the past five years. 34 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: We've been a collective, I guess since March twenty twenty 35 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: when COVID hit. So basically when that started, it was 36 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: kind of like we saw that there was going to 37 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: be a lot of food waste, like an obscene amounts 38 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 2: of food waste because all the restaurants, offices, hotels, la 39 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 2: la la who would be closing, And we thought we'd 40 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 2: kind of rescue that food and redistribute it to communities 41 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: that were in need until the government kind of got 42 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: on their feet and understood what their virus was that 43 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: was kind of the beginning of our deep, deep political 44 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 2: awakening of this place, thinking that there would be a 45 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 2: system that would come and serve the vulnerable communities around us. 46 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 2: So that's when it started. I think only like a 47 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 2: few months into that when we thought we were kind 48 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 2: of just like, yeah, good citizens doing the work and 49 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 2: not understanding how politically charged it is to serve your 50 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 2: community when they're actively being oppressed by the systems that 51 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: are supposed to care for them. And I think in 52 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: that moment, we understood that we want to not only 53 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: serve our neighbors or community, we also need to learn 54 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 2: about these root causes of oppression and what brought them 55 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: to this position in the first place. You know, people 56 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 2: often say like, oh, you know, someone's poor. They don't 57 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: have food in their fridge, like in their ways of 58 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: trying to raise funds or whatever. And it's it's an 59 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 2: atrocity almost to kind of depict it that way, because 60 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,839 Speaker 2: all of these communities are actively being abandoned, Yeah, being 61 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 2: abandoned in a nice way. You know, they didn't wake 62 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 2: up one morning and didn't have food in their fridge, right, 63 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: they don't have food in their fridge because of a 64 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 2: policy that preserves that status, and so that is they 65 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: mutual aid that we run. We had a community center 66 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 2: for five years where we hosted weekly events or daily 67 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 2: events every evening. All the events would be under that 68 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 2: umbrella of learning as a community about these injustices. And 69 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: they could also be you know, shows, and they could 70 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 2: be debates, and they could be lecturers or workshops, and 71 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: all of the proceeds would go to our food security program. 72 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 2: And in that way we are one hundred percent community funded. 73 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: No one has salaries. We made a conscious decision back 74 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: in the beginning when we realized all the injustices around us, 75 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 2: that we didn't want to institutionalize and become part of 76 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 2: a system that is responsible for that. And that is 77 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 2: not to say that NGOs aren't amazing. That is not 78 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 2: to say that you know, there aren't ENGOs doing God's 79 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: work here. 80 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: But they are constrained. Yeah, there's there's different constraints. 81 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, And this was our personal decision to act as 82 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: a community. There's another reason we didn't want to institutionalize 83 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: in this because we didn't want to make a business 84 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 2: out of something that shouldn't be needed. You know, I mean, 85 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 2: when you get salaries and tactica, like it perpetuates the 86 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: need to continue in a way, and like there's all 87 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 2: going to be need right, Like it's not We're gonna 88 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: you know, oh and then they're not going to need anymore. 89 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 2: But you know, I saw unhinge like a dating app. 90 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, it said an app meant to be deleted, 91 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 2: and I just thought about that, like, oh my god, 92 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 2: that is the essence of it all, Like we're not 93 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: supposed to be doing this, isn't like, I mean, we 94 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 2: should be caring for our community and our neighbors. That 95 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: should go without saying. But also our taxes should be 96 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: directed to serving our neighbors that are in vulnerable states. 97 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: So I will definitely link in the show notes to 98 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: like the Instagram and things like that. And for people 99 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: who are I mean, I'm sure for some people who 100 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: have seen the documentary no other Land, this is the 101 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:56,239 Speaker 1: same community that you all work with in Masafrietta. But yeah, yeah, 102 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: so I'm interested in a couple of different kind of directions. 103 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 2: But would you say that. 104 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: A lot of the people who come to Culture of 105 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: Solidarity and like volunteer and start to participate in your activities, 106 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: do you think that that opens up the space to 107 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: not only question injustices within the Israeli system, but how 108 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: that's tied up with the occupation, Like is that kind 109 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: of the path forward for people? 110 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 2: I think that is the path or that we want 111 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 2: for people. I think we are very forgiving in a 112 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: sense in the way that like not forgiving, but just understanding, 113 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: you know, the journey that it took us to unlearn 114 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: what we know. Like that's a hard one and I'm 115 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: going to go pre October seventh. You know, you're doing 116 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 2: work to unlearn what you've been taught is in your 117 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: entire identity. And you know, post October seventh, you just 118 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 2: see everything, like everything has become so much more pornographic, 119 00:06:55,040 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 2: Like you know, it's the amount of death murder, the genocide, 120 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. You know, just 121 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: this week, six communities have been pushed out of their 122 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 2: homes by the army, by settlers Paris, And it's become 123 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: much more immediate. Whereas I think before October seventh, I mean, 124 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 2: there didn't go a week in which we didn't have 125 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: an event talking about the occupation and learning. But I 126 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 2: think after October seventh it became this like huge divide 127 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 2: of like this kind of like protection over one's identity. 128 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 2: So we did a lot of work to kind of 129 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 2: dismantle that notion that to empathize with another people comes 130 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 2: on the expense of your own pain and trying to 131 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 2: you know, mirror the power dynamic to people like, yes, 132 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 2: we all had family and friends and people that we 133 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: knew that were murdered. That we're taken, that we're like abducted. 134 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 2: And with that being said, Israel has been committing a 135 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 2: genocide in Gaza for the past still it's ongoing two 136 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: in something years. The other day, I got a message 137 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 2: on our Instagram basically being like I love the work 138 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: you do. You do really important things, and you know 139 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: there is racism and there is poverty. But from there 140 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: to say that there's ethnic cleansing, come on, like, I 141 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 2: don't know if I can support your work anymore, and 142 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 2: basically also meet that with love as well to be 143 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: like I hear you. This is the policies that people 144 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 2: in our government are advancing, this is who our army 145 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: is protecting, this is what ethnic cleansing means. And in 146 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: that situation, I can also turn to my community and 147 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 2: my friends, like I have a friend that what he 148 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 2: does for work is kind of gathering all this information 149 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 2: of articles and everything that's coming out to educate. So 150 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 2: all right, cool, I can use those articles to help 151 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 2: teach this person that yes, there is in fact ethnic 152 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 2: cleansing happening in the West Bank, like and you know 153 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 2: it's not even like this like oh, how do I say? 154 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 2: It's like no, actually, are like our government officials are 155 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,319 Speaker 2: saying this like smoothly said it the other day, right, 156 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: so yeah, but yeah, it is this kind of like 157 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 2: open door. 158 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: Yeah for Israeli is that maybe not they're not there yet. 159 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: Also, yeah, I think that it's like it's it's hard. 160 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: It's like really hard because you're at this point where 161 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: it's like very far from where those people are that 162 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 2: are like beginning. And also you have sometimes resentment towards 163 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 2: your society and most of sometimes a lot of the 164 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 2: time you have resented. I'm always as nothing with like 165 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 2: in general, when someone wants to is asking a question, 166 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 2: I think that is just like amazing and important and cool, 167 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 2: let's have a conversation about this. At least they're asking, yeah, 168 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: and they're wanting to learn, they're questioning something. That's that's 169 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 2: the way forward. And with that being said, you know, 170 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 2: the past two enough years have also been excruciating living 171 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: in this society, like you're living in a genocidal society 172 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 2: and you're around people that could justify certain, you know, acts, 173 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 2: certain war crimes. Yeah, you kind of find yourself not 174 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 2: wanting to engage, not wanting to love, not wanting to teach, 175 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: not wanting not that I'm the one teaching, like we're 176 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 2: all learning together about this and hosting, but obviously not 177 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 2: wanting to have conversations sometimes because you're just like, well, 178 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 2: you see what's been happening online over the past two years, 179 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 2: and you still can't comprehend what is going on, and God, 180 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 2: I don't know what I can do to help that. 181 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 2: But then I have to remind myself that if I 182 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: am here, if I'm living here, I have a responsibility 183 00:10:52,679 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 2: and that is to, yeah, facilitate more meetings conversations in 184 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 2: which people will be exposed to the injustice is being 185 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: committed in our name. And that's a problem with liberal 186 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 2: Zionism as well, because liberal Zionists will be like, oh 187 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 2: my god, yeah, it's terrible, what's happening in the West 188 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 2: Bank settlers, blah blah, blah, but like they'll still send 189 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: their you know, their boys to go be pilots in 190 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 2: the army and you know, bob children. And it's kind 191 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 2: of like finding the way to kind of be like no, no, 192 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 2: you can't, like you can't be against that. 193 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: And then before that, right kind of demonstrate the cognitive 194 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: dissonance to them, like, yes, there's kind of a contradiction here. 195 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Sorry, I feel like it's just a 196 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,719 Speaker 2: little little no, no, not at all. 197 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: This is extremely rich in thought provoking content. I want 198 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: to ask what kind of organizations do Culture of Solidarity 199 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: engage with, whether in Israel and in Palestine, and kind 200 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: of relate it to that. What role do you see 201 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: an organization such as this a mutual aid organization? What 202 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: role do you envision for yourselves in Palestinian liberation? Like 203 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: what role are you intending to pay? You kind of 204 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: touched on it already in terms of like teaching and 205 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: learning within your own society. 206 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, we work with a lot of different organizations because 207 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 2: it is very important for us to you know, not 208 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 2: reinvent the wheel and kind of learn with our other organizations, 209 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 2: whether it's Gisha who talk about the actual words of 210 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: Gisha's access and they talk about access in Gaza, the 211 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 2: access to water, to electricity, the infrastructure and Gaza. And 212 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 2: then we could host tours every time it's a different organization. 213 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 2: This guy money in our group, he runs these tours 214 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 2: and he will do with Breaking the Silence and Missus. 215 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 2: They'll do one with the Zoo, which I'm sure, yeah, 216 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 2: you can probably link all of these in the definitely will. Yeah, 217 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: it was Maia, which is the Charles Kloramuncia, which is 218 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 2: literally down the street from where I'm at right now, 219 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: and it's the beach of Yafa and the village that 220 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 2: once existed there, or even with a woman named Hilaharel 221 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 2: to go through a tour within the half abandoned Israeli 222 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,319 Speaker 2: new bus station, and they're all tied to injustices. They're 223 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 2: all tied to something that was or was there and 224 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 2: isn't anymore, or atrocities currently happening. Obviously also when in 225 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 2: the negative to learn about the different Bedouin communities and 226 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: the injustices that they're experiencing. And then so that's yeah, 227 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 2: it's called touring and solidarity. And then we'll have I mean, honestly, 228 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 2: probably any left radical left organization that you could probably 229 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 2: think of. We collaborate with them in some way or another. 230 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 2: It's a pretty tight knit community and this has been 231 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 2: a beautiful thing of like trying to you know, always 232 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 2: there's always a knits and grits of blah blah blah, 233 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,719 Speaker 2: but I mean uplifting each other and collaborating with each 234 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:18,479 Speaker 2: other is so important to not feel alone as Israelis 235 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 2: against the occupation, Yeah, and for an actual true democracy 236 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 2: in the land or liberation. Yeah. 237 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: Do you work with Palestinian groups within Israel and in 238 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: the occupied territories? 239 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: Yes, we do. We worked with in organization in Gaza 240 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: called Dignity for Palestine and we did a big flower 241 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 2: fundraiser last year. And we've worked with organizations that are 242 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 2: like you know, physicians for human rights that are both 243 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: you know, Israelian Palestinian lead. And then we have our 244 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 2: annual Ramandan campaign that I was telling you about now, 245 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 2: and that's what rabbis for human rights who are not Palestinian. 246 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 2: But we do work with different groups within Palestine. One 247 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 2: of the people that was you know, the main receiver 248 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: and distributor of these boxes was Adadarin, who was murdered 249 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 2: in July by settler, you know, on Levy. So yeah, 250 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: it's working directly with communities. Second question was what role 251 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: do you left this Israelis have right now? Is that 252 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 2: the question? 253 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, like, what role do you envision either for yourself 254 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: as you you personally or for Israeli left in Palestinian liberation? 255 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 2: I know it's a big question. That is a big question. 256 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 2: It's an important question, and I think as long as 257 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 2: we are living on this land, it's our response. It's 258 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, I think it's everyone's responsibility to 259 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 2: free Palestine and for the Palestinian people to have equal 260 00:15:54,520 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 2: rights to have access to whatever they wish for under Yeah, 261 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: a government that sees both counterparts equally and the obviously 262 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 2: accountability and reparations that would need to happen in order 263 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: to get there. I think that our responsibility as Israeli 264 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 2: left is to keep fighting for that, is to keep 265 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 2: fighting for that within Israel and within Palestine. So, whether 266 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 2: it's protective presence in the West Bank, protective presence is 267 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: a kind of program where you sleep at different Palestinian 268 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 2: homes every night just in case settlers come in the 269 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: middle of the night to attack, or the army comes 270 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 2: in the middle of the night to attack, and you're 271 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 2: there serving as protective presence. You obviously have a privilege. 272 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 2: You have an Israeli passport, you're Jewish, that is a 273 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 2: privilege on this land, and to be there, you know, 274 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 2: obviously you don't decide what goes down. You ask each 275 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 2: family how they want to deal with this, and you 276 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: serve that. So I think protective presence is one of 277 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 2: the most important things Israeli Israeli leftists can do, because yeah, 278 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: like I said earlier, it's just getting worse and worse, 279 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 2: and it's at a high. It's always been bad, but 280 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 2: the past honestly, I think since no other land came out, 281 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 2: I think it's gotten a lot of attention on them. Essentially. Well, 282 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 2: there's always been attacked by settlers, of course, yeah, but 283 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: I think that, Yeah, in the past year, it's gotten 284 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 2: to an all time high. 285 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: Well, there's also kind of like the general impunity that 286 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: the Israeli government and the settler movement. 287 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 2: Like exactly not yet, especially after. 288 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: Biden left, like not that he was holding them accountable, 289 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: but of course certainly gloves were off after that. 290 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: For sure. No, no, exactly, that is very true, but 291 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 2: basically in the last year two years, it's gotten much 292 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 2: much worse. So I think Israeli leftists have a responsibility 293 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 2: to be serve as protective presence for one number one. 294 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 2: I think number two, they have a responsibility to educate 295 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 2: their society, and to not only educate, but to constantly learn. 296 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 2: I feel like so many people in Israel are in 297 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 2: just like this constant victimhood of like the whole world 298 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 2: is against us, like everyone's anti Semitic, blah blah blah 299 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 2: blah blah, and like from that to what actually, I mean, 300 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: obviously there's anti Semitism, Obviously there are people not saying 301 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 2: that there isn't of course, but without any accountability for 302 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 2: what we have turned our backs to over the past 303 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 2: two and a half years. Like, there's so much work 304 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: to be done, and I think, you know, the easy way, 305 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 2: whether it's a Western or abroad telling you like, well, 306 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 2: why do you live in Palestine? You should leave blah 307 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 2: blah blah, or whether it's a Palestinian in the West 308 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 2: Bank being like you can't leave, like you have, we 309 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 2: need you here. Obviously, it's an unnatural ecosystem to have, 310 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 2: you know, leftist activist running through villages and the West. 311 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: I mean, but that's the reality of things. So as 312 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 2: long as I am here, living on this land and 313 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 2: where I'm from, I'm going to do everything in my 314 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 2: power to resist what is happening and to learn together 315 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 2: with other people. It's hard because we're not We're a 316 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: really tiny community like that. You know, there's people that 317 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 2: again are against you know, all the war blah blah blah, 318 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: like but yeah, but not seeing how that is like 319 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 2: interconnected with the entire premise of the state. There's a 320 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 2: lot of work to be done, and it's hard because 321 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 2: you're also bitter, like you know, and you want to 322 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 2: have compassion with them. 323 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: You're bitter, and I'm like, ah, you're like, you've made 324 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: so much work for us. 325 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, also, I get it. I've been there. 326 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 2: I wasn't raised in a left home. I know what 327 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 2: it is to be raised up conservative, right wing, you know, Zionists, 328 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 2: and I'm obviously very far from that. But I know 329 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: what it's like to have to leave everything you've been 330 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 2: raised on. I know what it's like to have family 331 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: not want to talk to you. I know what it's 332 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 2: like to have friends not want to be friends with you. 333 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 2: Anymore to have so many people around you telling you 334 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 2: that you're wrong, but you know that this is the 335 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 2: right thing to do. And I get that, and I 336 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 2: have compassion for that. But then there's also just like 337 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 2: sometimes you're just like, yeah, no, I can't, I can't imagine. 338 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a it's a very difficult journey to 339 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,239 Speaker 1: travel through. I understand the sentiment that you've expressed that 340 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: like the last two years should have been enough. Yeah, 341 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: but also it's like this whole identity is fragile and 342 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: people are human beings and like it's difficult for them 343 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: to like, yeah, I'm not saying anything new, just reiterating 344 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: what you said about like unlearning, Like it's it's an 345 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: extremely difficult thing to go through, I think, But. 346 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 2: Do you understand, like you know, you're a Palestinian and 347 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 2: like me complaining about this thing that we're doing, Like 348 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 2: it just feels like people know what's been going on. 349 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 2: But on Palestinians that have family friends that are subjected 350 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: to this violence and that are themselves subjected to that 351 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 2: violence abroad because of being Palestinian, and then what is 352 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 2: happening here, it's like two different worlds. Yeah, it's funny 353 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: for me to even like be like, oh yeah, like 354 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: to even try to explain that, because I'm sure people 355 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 2: will be listening to this and be like, oh, like, 356 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 2: you know, why are they complaining? Like, but then you 357 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 2: know your society, and you know what they have or 358 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: haven't been exposed to, and you know what they've chosen 359 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 2: not to look at to not necessarily at this point 360 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 2: what they have or haven't been exposed, because I think 361 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 2: that's also a bit of a kind of forgiving card, 362 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: because I think at this point you still call it ai. 363 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 2: If you still call it like, there's some deep reckoning 364 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 2: to do there. Yeah. But anyways, I just feel like 365 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 2: it's such two different worlds and I think that I think, 366 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 2: as Israeli leftists that live here, you know, paid taxes 367 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,479 Speaker 2: in this lan, we have a huge responsibility, if not 368 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 2: the number one responsibility, to posts any in liberation. And yeah, 369 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 2: I think that's the very long answer to your questions. 370 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: No, No, I mean I think it's yeah, it's a 371 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: fair answer. I just you know, think to myself that, like, 372 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: it's not coincidence and it's not to take away from 373 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 1: the agency of like individuals. Obviously, everybody has choices, to 374 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: make Like Israelis have choices to make. They can choose 375 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: to believe or not believe, or they can choose to 376 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: turn their back. But at the same time, it's like 377 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: systems have led them to a point where they dehumanize 378 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: to this extent that they can see the videos and 379 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: either make excuses or pretend they're not real, you know. 380 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: And so it's like the work is to disrupt the systems, 381 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: you know. I think in that way, I think about 382 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 1: like structural constraints that is more worthwhile in my effort. 383 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 1: If I was in Israel leftist, I'm not, But if 384 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 1: I was in your shoes, like, that's more worthwhile and 385 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: my effort then to be like kind of demoralized by individuals, 386 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: if you know, if you understand what I mean, I 387 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: guess that kind of leads me to my next question. 388 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I know that October seventh was such kind 389 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: of like a breaking point. But obviously the Israeli left 390 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: like was in the minority before as well. But what 391 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: would you say, kind of like in the last two 392 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: years and kind of to think about moving forward, what 393 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: are the biggest challenges that the Israeli left faces to 394 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: continue in its effort whether it's to educate or to 395 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: be a type of protective presence, whether physically in the 396 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: West Bank or in their presence in Israel. 397 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 2: Well, obviously it's our you know, fascist government and fascist society, 398 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 2: you know, anyone that is like actively oppressing every minority 399 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 2: on this land and especially Palestinians. So I think our 400 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: biggest threat is our government at the moment. But I 401 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 2: think that our biggest my biggest threat if I could 402 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 2: think of, like, what is the biggest threat is apathy. 403 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 2: I think, like people not caring, people not getting up 404 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 2: and leaving their houses and doing things and organizing and 405 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 2: mobilizing just letting this happen. And I think on paper, 406 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 2: the biggest obstacle would probably be our government that are 407 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 2: you know, acting in such a fascist, fanatic, Nazi manner. 408 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 2: And I think, yeah, as an individual being a part 409 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 2: of grassroots communities and seeing, you know, at the end 410 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 2: of the day, there are people that are going out 411 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 2: there and actively like murdering Palestinians, that are you know, 412 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:54,479 Speaker 2: pushing for policies to deport children, Filipino children or children 413 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 2: of migrant workers. There's so many injustices towards different people, 414 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 2: and there are people that are like actively going out 415 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 2: and like fighting for these like terrible, terrible fanatic ideologies. 416 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 2: And I think whenever we people don't. I said this 417 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 2: in a podcast recently, and someone told me, like, wait, 418 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 2: you have to take out that part because it sounds 419 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 2: like you're like voting, like you'rely grooting for the bashes 420 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 2: to active and like, no, no, no. The fact is that 421 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 2: there are people that are doing these really really bad things, 422 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 2: and when we're not countering them, when we are just 423 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: letting them happen and be like, oh yeah, it sucks, 424 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 2: but not doing anything about it, not using our privilege 425 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: or our voice or a microphone to resist that, then 426 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 2: we're conforming with it. And I know that's not fun 427 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 2: to think. That's not fun. It's not fun to like 428 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 2: go or organize protests. It's not fun to do a lot, 429 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 2: even though actually there's a lot of things that are 430 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 2: really beautiful as well. Being in the West Bank, being 431 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 2: with people, playing with children, like these are beautiful things. 432 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: It's not like we're doing that. But I think when 433 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 2: it's within Israeli society, when it's organizing protests, when it's 434 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 2: joining a protest as a number, when it's you know, 435 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 2: learning and doing unlearning. It's not always easy and it's 436 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: not always someone's first yeah decision to make. But I 437 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 2: think that when you don't do that, I think that 438 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 2: is the biggest threat. You know, In the Holocaust and 439 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 2: many different atrocities over the years, the thing that like 440 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 2: stood out most was people that were silent and people 441 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 2: that yeah, didn't resist in one way or another, Like 442 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 2: that movie Zone of Interest, Like, oh my god, that movie. 443 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 2: That movie just shaped these past two and a half years. 444 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 2: Like I saw it a few months after October seventh, 445 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 2: and I just every moment that life just existed in 446 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 2: Israel and you saw warplanes flying above you, and you 447 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 2: know what's going happen. You hear too, like you hear 448 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: bombs falling, you hear and everyone it's just like gotten 449 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 2: used to it, and you're just like, we're living in 450 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 2: Zone of Interest. Yeah, that's wild. And yeah, I think 451 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 2: it's like a constant question of do I want to 452 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 2: be a part of the society? Do I want to fight? 453 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 2: Life would be much easier if I moved away and 454 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 2: I was just like fuck this place, which is not 455 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 2: a bad thing to do. I have many friends that 456 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 2: have done this, and I understand it. It's really hard. 457 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 2: You know, life would be easier if I just left. 458 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 2: It's not the I don't want to say, it's not 459 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 2: the sexy narrative to be like like, look we can both, 460 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 2: you know, Look, you know, let's learn. It's not fun 461 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 2: to be talking and trying to reason with fascists like 462 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 2: or people that are in deep denial of reality. You're 463 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 2: really well intertwined with. But I think it's my moral 464 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 2: responsibility as an Israeli to be here and as long 465 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 2: as I can and help create platforms for our society 466 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 2: to learn and resist. Yeah. 467 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: No, I think, like you said, there are different pathways, 468 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: but I can definitely understand like the feeling you have 469 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 1: that it's like an abdication of responsibility having been a 470 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: part of the society to some degree to yeah, throw 471 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 1: your hands essentially. 472 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 2: One last question. 473 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: I was watching the documentary Coexistence my ass, which is 474 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: an incredible documentary. I really encourage people to watch it 475 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: if they can. And it's filmed and it incorporates that 476 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: moment of October seventh and shows to I mean, I 477 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: think implies though of course I don't know how widely 478 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: this applies, but it shows and implies how parts of 479 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,719 Speaker 1: the left fell off, you know, after October seventh. Do 480 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,479 Speaker 1: you feel like, now we're twenty twenty six for recording 481 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: February twenty second, twenty twenty sixth do you feel like 482 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: people are starting. 483 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 2: To come back. I don't know, or did just the 484 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 2: left get smaller. I think the radical left has become 485 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 2: just much more tight knit. And yeah, whoever's a part 486 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 2: of it is kind of a part of it. People 487 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 2: are always welcome to join and be a part, but 488 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 2: it's kind of you know, you kind of have your 489 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 2: usual suspects at this point. And I think the broader, 490 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 2: like I don't know, liberal Zionists that will call themselves left, 491 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 2: and Israel just like isn't really left because they're talking 492 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 2: about a democracy within an apartheid state. They are, like 493 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 2: I said earlier, sending their sons to war. I'm not 494 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 2: saying that's an easy thing, but at the same time 495 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 2: opposing the war and not acknowledging Palestinian suffering. And I 496 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 2: think there's become many people and this is from my 497 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 2: personal experience that just are like, like I said, apathetic, 498 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 2: kind of like looking forward with their hands on the 499 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 2: side of each of their eyes. Trying not to see 500 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 2: what's happening. You know there are people thousands, tens of 501 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 2: thousands in the streets protesting. You know they'll be waving 502 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 2: Israeli flags. That's hard for me. I don't feel like 503 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 2: I'm in the group that would ever wave a flag. 504 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 2: And I think they see themselves as left. Yeah again, 505 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 2: like I said, like, you can't be fighting for human rights, 506 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 2: liberal ideologies within an apartheid state. You can't fight for 507 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 2: democracy in an apartheid state. Like we have to touch 508 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,239 Speaker 2: the root of this, all every injustice happening on this 509 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 2: land or in Israel in forty eight, Like, in my opinion, 510 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 2: the root of it is the occupation. We've planted roots 511 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 2: on rotten soil. We've pushed people out of their homes 512 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 2: and took them as our own, and we're not really 513 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 2: willing to reconcile what we've become, what we've done. And 514 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 2: I think only when that starts to happen, there could 515 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 2: be some sort of future here on this land for 516 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 2: both people. But as long as we're not acknowledging the 517 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 2: atrocities we are committing, and the atrocities are silence is 518 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 2: allowing to perpetuate, then the left here is very very tiny. 519 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 2: And I say that not to toot our own horn. 520 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 2: You know, it's not in a way of like we're 521 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 2: not on a moral high ground, Like maybe there was 522 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 2: a moment where I did feel that way in a 523 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: sense of like I know and you don't know, it's like, 524 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 2: but then you know very quickly in order to turn 525 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 2: your activism into something sustainable, you have to remind yourself 526 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 2: this is what I believe in. This is love, and 527 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 2: it's not from bitterness, and it's not from being on 528 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 2: a moral high ground, like I'm doing this because I 529 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 2: believe in it as me as d D. And I 530 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 2: really hope other people join and other people also open 531 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 2: their hearts to these injustices, and really in order for 532 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 2: everyone to have a just reality of just future, then 533 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 2: you have to fight for everyone to have those rights 534 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 2: as well. 535 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for that. I always say, like, 536 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is applicable lots of places. 537 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: I say it here in the United States, like when 538 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: there was a crackdown on pro Palestine protesters and just 539 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: the complete reversal of freedom of speech and everything like 540 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: that because they happened to be pro Palestine. I said, 541 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: you know, this is eroding the tenuous democracy you have. 542 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 2: It's democracy for all of us or none of us. 543 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: And in Israel, it's like, you can be liberal, or 544 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: you can call yourself the left and advocate in this way. 545 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: But unless, like you said, you realize what the construction 546 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: of the state and its continuation kind of like this 547 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: endless ethnic cleansing project that's happening in the territories, it's like, 548 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: unless you address that, it will bleed into you. So 549 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: it's you know, for a variety of reasons, moral reasons, 550 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: of course, but also self interest. Dahlia Schenlin has an 551 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: interesting article about this and an interesting argument about this 552 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: that I'll link in the show notes. And I would 553 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: say she's a believer in maybe a confederation or something 554 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: like that, but her analysis is the occupation ruined the 555 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: potential of Israeli democracy. Like I said, she comes at 556 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: it from a very kind of different angle I think 557 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: than you do, but still is a reasonable argument at 558 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: the end of it. 559 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 2: But yeah, thank you so much, Danielle. 560 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: This has been a really rich conversation and I think 561 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: that the listeners will benefit a lot from having this 562 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: laid out. And of course I'll include everything in the 563 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: show notes about the groups that we mentioned. 564 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for inviting me, and yeah, I 565 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 2: hope I didn't tug your head off. Oh not at all. 566 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 2: This is very thank you so much. 567 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 3: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 568 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, is it our 569 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 3: website cool zone media dot com, or check us out 570 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 571 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 3: to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could 572 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 3: Happen here, listed directly in episode descriptions. 573 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.