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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: First, it becomes why didn't you tell me about this?

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Speaker 2: And you know this is the secret you've been keeping,

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Speaker 2: And then when things start to go awry, how could

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Speaker 2: you involve me in this thing?

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. New York Times bestselling author

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Speaker 1: Megan Abbott often uses true crime stories as a jumping

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Speaker 1: off point for her wildly popular novels. Now she has

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Speaker 1: a new book out called El Dorado Drive. It's about

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Speaker 1: three sisters who become entangled in a pyramid scheme that

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Speaker 1: turns very dark. The real story behind the novel is

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Speaker 1: so strange, it's hard to know what really happened, and

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Speaker 1: luckily Megan has done a huge amount of research. So you, like,

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of fiction authors in your genre,

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Speaker 1: you know, crime and mystery, thriller and all of that,

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Speaker 1: you look to real stories sometimes for inspiration. How do

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Speaker 1: you come up with a crime that is believable but

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Speaker 1: at the same time something you can riff off of

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Speaker 1: with fiction? So have you done that with other books?

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Speaker 1: El Dorado Drive the first.

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Speaker 2: No, almost all of them. But sometimes it's it permeates

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Speaker 2: the book more than other times. Sometimes there's just a spark.

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Speaker 2: But I really fell in love with true crime as

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Speaker 2: a kid, I think, like so many of us, so

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Speaker 2: it really came first to somehow. I think that made

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Speaker 2: me become a crime novelists, So I think that will

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Speaker 2: always be the kind of peg for me. But it's

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Speaker 2: it's usually not the crime itself that interests me. It's

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Speaker 2: usually some other aspect of it, the psychology, the circumstances,

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Speaker 2: the the family drama behind it. You know, sometimes it's

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Speaker 2: the point of view of you know, a survivor, you

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Speaker 2: know family member, and that it can be such as

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Speaker 2: tiny detail, and that's usually what starts it and then

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Speaker 2: it sort of taken from there. But often the real

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Speaker 2: life case remains a way to sort of set some

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Speaker 2: parameters around. It gives me some narrative structure, and I

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Speaker 2: try to adhere to even though the people are different.

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Speaker 2: I'm making up the characters, but something about the circumstances

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Speaker 2: fascinates me, So those become my guardrails. I guess.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and where do you consume your true crime? Is

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Speaker 1: it podcast or you read or what podcast?

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Speaker 2: Read? Docuseries? You know, like all this stuff. Texas Month, Please,

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Speaker 2: You've had so many of my favorite true crime writers

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Speaker 2: on the show, of course, Gilbert King, you know a

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Speaker 2: lot of them, you know. And I really will go

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Speaker 2: high and low with it, you know. Some of these

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Speaker 2: deeply reported and researched books are the gold standard. But

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Speaker 2: I will watch Discovery as much as any you know,

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Speaker 2: I'll watch Dateline, you know, all of it. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: I do, and everything in between.

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Speaker 1: I joke with the listeners sometimes, I mean, I watch

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Speaker 1: right now. Pause on my TV is fear Thy Neighbor,

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Speaker 1: which I am so fascinated by the idea of people

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Speaker 1: who are basically acquaintances and this build up over time

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Speaker 1: over something seemingly stupid, but you know, it always reminds

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Speaker 1: me of it's perspective. It doesn't matter how stupid you

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Speaker 1: think it is. Does the killer or the criminal or

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Speaker 1: whoever you know, I mean maybe in your story. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter how how if you think that somebody is

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Speaker 1: super wealthy, they might not feel the same way. It's

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Speaker 1: all about the context and the perspective.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think so many of them were drawn

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Speaker 2: too because they are circumstances that we can imagine ourselves

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Speaker 2: and if things, you know, were sort of heightened and

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Speaker 2: so were sort of it's a way of sort of

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Speaker 2: testing ourselves. Would I fall for? You know? Some of

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Speaker 2: these cod are just said would I fall for this?

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Speaker 2: Some you know, would I really let things get this far?

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Speaker 2: Or would I stay in a marriage where this? You know?

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Speaker 2: So I think it's in some ways these are sort

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Speaker 2: of cautionary tales moral questions emerge, but they're also interrogations

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Speaker 2: of ourselves.

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Speaker 1: I love an answer and I will use it from

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Speaker 1: now on when people ask me why women and you know,

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Speaker 1: by far is the largest audience. And I really people

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Speaker 1: disagree with me sometimes on this, but I don't like

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Speaker 1: the answer that women just want to learn how to

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Speaker 1: protect themselves. I think most of us know that. We know,

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Speaker 1: don't walk across a dark parking lot at night by yourself.

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Speaker 1: I really do think it's a puzzle and a mystery,

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Speaker 1: and I like you adding in the self reflection, I

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Speaker 1: call it, you know, armchair quarterbacking, But that's not the

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Speaker 1: right description. It's the feeling though, right like I would

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Speaker 1: have not done that. I'm not marrying that guy.

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Speaker 2: That's right. No, I really agree with that, and I

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Speaker 2: really reject the same notion you do. I've heard that

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Speaker 2: claimed a lot, and I feel like some women said

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Speaker 2: that to some researcher once is a way that explain it.

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Speaker 2: But I also think it's one of the few, you know,

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Speaker 2: mass forms of popular culture where women's stories that are

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Speaker 2: sort of forbidden get told. You know, domestic abuse, stalking,

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Speaker 2: you know, complicated relationships with one parent or one's child

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Speaker 2: like things are the sort of taboo, you know. I

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Speaker 2: feel like that's this is the genre where they are

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Speaker 2: really excavated.

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Speaker 1: And I think that to me, that gets misinterpreted as sensationalized,

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Speaker 1: when you know, the crimes that we're talking about were sensational.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I just really unusual circumstances, and the problem,

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Speaker 1: of course comes in when when there are crimes that

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Speaker 1: are equally horrifying, but they don't get a lot of

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Speaker 1: attention for various reasons. So so I appreciate that, And

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Speaker 1: and you know, I like a good fraud story, a

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Speaker 1: good kind of Ponzi scheme type story. So why don't

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Speaker 1: we start with for El Dorado Drive. Give me sort

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Speaker 1: of what your pitch would be if we were at

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Speaker 1: a dinner party and I said, I've never heard of

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Speaker 1: this book. Tell me a little bit about it before

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Speaker 1: my shrimp cocktail gets here.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Well, it's it's really about three sisters who you know,

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Speaker 2: live in a Detroit suburb. It's set where I grew up,

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Speaker 2: and you know, they said time. It's set in the recession,

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Speaker 2: the last recession declining while they all need money different reasons,

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Speaker 2: and they're enticed to join this club that's sort of

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Speaker 2: women helping other women with female entrepreneurs club, and it

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Speaker 2: seems to be the solution to all their problems. And

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Speaker 2: one of the sisters, Pam this particularly excels at it

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Speaker 2: and draws her sisters in and it sort of starts

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Speaker 2: to take control of their lives. If something very tribal

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Speaker 2: about these the club and clubs that aren'ts inspire it,

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Speaker 2: and it starts to seem like the solution to everything,

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Speaker 2: to all their problems. But of course, you know, quick,

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Speaker 2: quick solutions to problems usually go awry, and this one

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Speaker 2: does and things turn kind of dark.

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Speaker 1: Good it wouldn't be you if they weren't dark at

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Speaker 1: some point. Right now the sister part of it, before

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Speaker 1: we get into the story that inspired you. Do you

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Speaker 1: have sisters? You know, I'm writing a sister story right now.

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Speaker 1: I don't have sisters, so I have two kids who

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Speaker 1: her sisters. So you have to pull stuff from somewhere.

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Speaker 2: You do. And I write about sisters a lot, and

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Speaker 2: I think it's because I don't have any sisters. I

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Speaker 2: have a one older brother, and I've always been fascinated

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Speaker 2: by the complexity of those relationships. How there's you know,

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Speaker 2: there's self and competition and aggression and intense loyalty and love,

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Speaker 2: and they're all kind of piled on top of each other.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of like female friendships can be, but maximized

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Speaker 2: because you've all been through you know, sisters have been

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Speaker 2: through the same trauma, which is everyone's childhood right together,

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Speaker 2: so they also have that. They have that and too,

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Speaker 2: I'm always sort of fascinated by birth order and how

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Speaker 2: that affects us you know, the personality type of the

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Speaker 2: oldest versus the youngest versus the middle siblings. So so

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Speaker 2: it seemed like a great vantage point because I wanted

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Speaker 2: to consider women and money. So to have three sisters.

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Speaker 2: They all grew up in the same household, but they

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Speaker 2: all have a sort of different relationship to money because

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Speaker 2: of that childhood that they shared.

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Speaker 1: Did you read the article, I think it was in

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Speaker 1: the New York Times, you know, that talked about the

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Speaker 1: real study behind the order of siblings, and they were

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Speaker 1: saying that the headline was something like, siblings basically have

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Speaker 1: a bigger impact on each other than parents even do

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Speaker 1: in a kind of a typical household that's relatively healthy

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Speaker 1: in all of that, And did you end up seeing

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Speaker 1: that article.

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Speaker 2: I did see that. I read it as well. Susan

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Speaker 2: Dominance I think wrote it, and I thought it was

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Speaker 2: extraordinary and fascinating because it's sort of like talk about

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Speaker 2: how you're sat from birth in a certain way about

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Speaker 2: certain aspects of yourself. Do you have siblings, no, Okay,

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Speaker 2: so the only time I guess this is a whole

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Speaker 2: separate category. You kind of avoid this.

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Speaker 1: Like you do, but it's hard. You know. I've always

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Speaker 1: said I wish I had a sibling, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: really realize it till my dad died, because then it

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Speaker 1: was just me. And it's not like it's not a

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Speaker 1: it wasn't for me a comfort thing. It was more

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Speaker 1: of like I am the only person who understands a

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Speaker 1: position I'm in right now, and it would be so

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Speaker 1: nice to have one. That's why I was pretty determined

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Speaker 1: to have two.

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Speaker 2: You know, absolutely, Oh, I think that's quite right. It's

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Speaker 2: you always have that to go back to, and it's

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Speaker 2: you know, even as you know people have can have

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Speaker 2: complicated relationships with their siblings, but you have this sort

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Speaker 2: of core connection that can't be severed and with things

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Speaker 2: like a parental depth. It's it's absolutely true and it

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Speaker 2: can't be undervalued. I think about that a lot too,

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Speaker 2: because in the case with these three sisters, their parents

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Speaker 2: are both gone, the memory of their parents is looms

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Speaker 2: large for them.

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Speaker 1: Well, give me some background and then we can shift

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Speaker 1: over to you know, the real story. And I don't

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Speaker 1: know how much does the real story connect to your sisters?

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Speaker 1: I know they deviate at some point, but is are

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Speaker 1: you setting them kind of in the same with the

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Speaker 1: real story? Is it come from a wealthy person who

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Speaker 1: then does this or how do we start from the beginning?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, the real life case is

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Speaker 2: Connecticut in some ways, you know, it's sort of a

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Speaker 2: similar suburban setting as somewhat wealthy area. And then that

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Speaker 2: which really seems fundamental to the story because it's about

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Speaker 2: having money and having lost it and finding a sort

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Speaker 2: of fast route to get it again. And in the case,

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Speaker 2: you know, the Pam the middle system in my book

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Speaker 2: has been through this contentious divorce, which is also true

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Speaker 2: in the real case, So which is also about money.

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Speaker 2: So that that is an echo is an inspiration really

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Speaker 2: interested me because it's it's also fraud, and you know,

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Speaker 2: everything is sort of about all the other things that

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Speaker 2: money means. You know, it's not money is never just

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Speaker 2: about money. It's always about so many other things. And

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Speaker 2: so that really I knew I wanted to do the

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Speaker 2: same thing in my book, is to take that that

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Speaker 2: this divorce is almost a character in it of itself,

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Speaker 2: this terrible divorce that the character has been through.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's start with the real story. It's a Connecticut

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Speaker 1: But is this two thousand and eight? Is that when

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Speaker 1: it happens, it's too ten.

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Speaker 2: So it's after the financial crash, after the collapse of

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Speaker 2: the housing market. It's you know, it's the last recession.

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Speaker 2: When I started writing this book, we weren't on the

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Speaker 2: brink of a recession, but eerily always seem to be

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Speaker 2: teetering on it again. But I think the the twenty

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Speaker 2: ten is significant, especially the housing crisis, but also the

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Speaker 2: collapse of all the investment banks had a huge impact

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Speaker 2: on communities like Madison, Connecticut, where this the real life

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Speaker 2: case took place, because it is a you know, a

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Speaker 2: lot of you know, it's adjacent to New York City,

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Speaker 2: it's a lot of you know, people are affected by finance,

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Speaker 2: by the markets. They're certainly affected by the housing crisis.

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Speaker 2: So it's sort of the kind of economics situation that

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Speaker 2: affects even people in relative security and comfort, it affects

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Speaker 2: them as well.

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Speaker 1: Now, who is the person that we're talking about in

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Speaker 1: the real story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this was Barbara Hamburg born Barbara Beach, and

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Speaker 2: she's a divorced mom two kids, two teenage kids. One's

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Speaker 2: off at school, and she's living in this rental house.

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Speaker 2: And in March twenty ten, she was found murdered on

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Speaker 2: in her yard and it had been bludgeoned to death,

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Speaker 2: so this is like blunt and sharp forced trauma. And

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Speaker 2: she was found by her sister and her daughter, and

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Speaker 2: they were cushions, sofa cushions covering her bodies, so they

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Speaker 2: didn't even quite see her at first, and they placed

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Speaker 2: any on one call and the police came and she was,

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Speaker 2: you know, long gone by then, and they quickly ruled

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Speaker 2: it a homicide. It was a brutal, brutal beating. And she,

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Speaker 2: you know, a haunting figure because she's only forty eight.

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Speaker 2: She was full of life and energy. She was a

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Speaker 2: beloved woman and a social butterfly, and she was really

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Speaker 2: remaking her life after this divorce, or trying too. And

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Speaker 2: she had suffered from issues with alcohol in the past,

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Speaker 2: and she used to come out on the other end

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Speaker 2: of that in some ways, trying to create a new

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Speaker 2: beginning for herself. And although all that was of course

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Speaker 2: cut short.

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Speaker 1: What was relationship with her husband? Is this somebody who

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Speaker 1: is wealthy in Connecticut? Is this you know, a totally

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Speaker 1: different story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he had Jeffrey Hamburg, who was at one point,

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Speaker 2: you know, a millionaire CEO of an energy company. So

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Speaker 2: when she married him, and during their marriage he was

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Speaker 2: quite successful, like outrally, money was pouring in and they

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Speaker 2: really lived this very sort of fairy tale life. From

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Speaker 2: the outside, these two beautiful kids. Everything was wonderful. And

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Speaker 2: then he lost his job for alleged financial improprieties and

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Speaker 2: they and they divorced. There were other issues too, undoubtedly,

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Speaker 2: but they had been divorced for several years by the

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Speaker 2: time of her murder, but they were still That very morning,

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Speaker 2: they were both to appear in family court because he

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Speaker 2: hadn't paid his child support in so long, like one

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Speaker 2: hundred fifty thousand dollars in child support. He showed up

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Speaker 2: in court and she did not. So it's it's the

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Speaker 2: timing is odd and curious, and you know, they had

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Speaker 2: been biting, you know, in court off, you know, for

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Speaker 2: some time. Ultimately it turned out that he owed her

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Speaker 2: something like four hundred and fifty thousand dollars in back

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Speaker 2: child support payments, and then it turned out that he

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Speaker 2: had been taking money from the trust funds for his kids.

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Speaker 2: So all this stuff emerged afterward. I had declared bankruptcy

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Speaker 2: the year before, so he you know, he had started

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Speaker 2: his own energy company and was doing consulting. But it's

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Speaker 2: so much much shady business practices. And then it emerged

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Speaker 2: during the investigation that few years before she had gone

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Speaker 2: to the police about what she suspected was some illegal

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Speaker 2: doings on his part and would agreed to cooperate with authorities.

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Speaker 2: So we don't you know, we don't know what those

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Speaker 2: activities are, and that's all speculation. But he obviously emerges

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Speaker 2: suspect number one as he sees his motive and seeming means,

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Speaker 2: and he was brought in for questioning, but he had

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Speaker 2: alibi because he was in court full court with judge

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Speaker 2: and his lawyer at the time of the murder. And

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Speaker 2: then he submitted DNA and hair samples and according to

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Speaker 2: the police there was no match.

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Speaker 1: Wow, So you know, I have a couple of questions

296
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Speaker 1: that are probably going to be speculation on your part.

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Speaker 1: She was found in the front yard.

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Speaker 2: Is that right sort of to the side of the house,

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Speaker 2: so you would you couldn't quite see it if you

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Speaker 2: watch the documentary, which you know, you can sort of

301
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Speaker 2: see how it's not quite you can't see it from

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Speaker 2: the street. You wouldn't have seen her.

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Speaker 1: Okay, it wasn't the greatest job concealing, but well enough

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Speaker 1: so that people missed her for a long time.

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Speaker 2: Then the timeline issues are complex because she did take

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Speaker 2: her daughter to school that morning. The timeline people have

307
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Speaker 2: tried to figure out so much, especially for her purposes

308
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Speaker 2: of could the husband have killed her before he showed

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Speaker 2: up in court, And that's sort of one of the questions.

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Speaker 2: But the placement of the body and the sofa cushions suggested,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's been a lot of speculation because some

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Speaker 2: people suggested maybe he hired someone to kill her, but

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Speaker 2: the cushions covering her this sincerely seemed like a professional

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Speaker 2: order for hire. Yeah, and also and also the way

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Speaker 2: she was killed suggests the crime of passion. These are

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Speaker 2: always just sort of the way we try to understand

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Speaker 2: these things. But yeah, all these pieces, it's it's very

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Speaker 2: hard to sort of put together one story that everything

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Speaker 2: lines up.

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Speaker 1: So what was the part that drew you in and

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Speaker 1: inspired you for the book? Was it the relationship that

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Speaker 1: Barbara had with Jeffrey and the contentious divorce ers? There

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Speaker 1: are more to it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely more to it. There's a wonderful documentary

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Speaker 2: on HBO. We can watch a docuseries made by the Sun.

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Speaker 2: He made it himself as he was getting and continuing

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Speaker 2: to get stone walled by the local police. That's the

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Speaker 2: way he's interpreted because he's unable to get all the

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Speaker 2: files from them, and he voided them and et cetera.

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Speaker 2: But he really lays out several convincing scenarios. But one

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Speaker 2: of the things that emerges of the documentary and that

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Speaker 2: emerged in real life, is that Barbara was involved in

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Speaker 2: this ex social activity that's called the Gifting Tables. And

334
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Speaker 2: what this was was this essentially a pyramid scheme. They

335
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Speaker 2: would not call it that, but it involved women would

336
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Speaker 2: and there were many of them that were involved in this,

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Speaker 2: and eventually two of the women went to prison for

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Speaker 2: it would give five thousand dollars and then they would

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Speaker 2: have to recruit more women, and eventually, if you continue

340
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Speaker 2: to recruit enough women, you would rise to the top.

341
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Speaker 2: And the reason it's called the gifting tables is that

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Speaker 2: it sort of resembles a meal, so you come in

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Speaker 2: at the appetizer level. If you give your five thousand,

344
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Speaker 2: and then you rise through salad, entree and dessert, and

345
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Speaker 2: if you bring in enough women, eventually you take eight

346
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Speaker 2: women's new women's contribution and you go home with forty

347
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Speaker 2: thousand dollars. So it's a classic pyramid scheme where it

348
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Speaker 2: all depends on recruitment. And this revelation sparked a lot

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Speaker 2: of speculation is to maybe her involvement in this activity,

350
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Speaker 2: maybe someone disgruntled, maybe someone that did supposedly she was

351
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Speaker 2: going to be collecting her forty thousand. Of course she

352
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Speaker 2: was killed, so that that really opened up I think

353
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Speaker 2: a lot of questions about whether that is really the

354
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 2: suspects should come Maybe perhaps comes from the scoop of women,

355
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,240
Speaker 2: or someone who was involved in them and no longer was,

356
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Speaker 2: or someone who had gone to the district attorney about them.

357
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Speaker 2: Because eventually it was all exposed. Her aunt was the

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Speaker 2: one who first brought her in. She was one of

359
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Speaker 2: the ones who went to prison. She appears in the

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Speaker 2: documentary as well, Wow.

361
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Speaker 1: So was she? So she was at the dessert level,

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Speaker 1: Barbara was Is that right? She had brought in eight

363
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Speaker 1: women and she was going to yes, the forty thousand. Wow, Okay,

364
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Speaker 1: where does this revelation come from is it the aunt

365
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Speaker 1: or what happens?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, the aunt of the documentary is very

367
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Speaker 2: resistant of notion that had anything to do with the club.

368
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Speaker 2: But you know, especially that they had already been a

369
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Speaker 2: lot of some investigation into the club before even the murder.

370
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Speaker 2: But obviously the murder threw it in the high relief

371
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Speaker 2: because many of the women involved or had been approached

372
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Speaker 2: about it, heard a wow, what happened to Barbara Hamburg

373
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Speaker 2: and they obviously started talking about it and her sister,

374
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Speaker 2: Barbara's sister Conway, who is one of the ones who

375
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Speaker 2: discovered her, was also involved in the tables. So everyone's

376
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Speaker 2: becomes implicated. And it's why it's one of the most

377
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 2: fascinating stories because there's so many suspects and none of

378
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 2: them quite quite line up. For instance, like what do

379
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 2: you gain by killing her? You know, like you're just

380
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,399
Speaker 2: going to get to the top one party sooner they

381
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,640
Speaker 2: would have these parties where you would collect your gift.

382
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Speaker 2: It doesn't quite make sense, but but it did reveal

383
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Speaker 2: I suppose to a lot of people it's potentially darker

384
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Speaker 2: side to her. I don't necessarily see it that way.

385
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Speaker 2: She obviously needed money. Her husband had taken an enormous

386
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Speaker 2: amount of money from her. She had gone from living

387
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Speaker 2: in a mansion to living in a rental house. I mean,

388
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Speaker 2: lots of us are very happy in rental homes, but

389
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Speaker 2: it was not the life that she was used to.

390
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Speaker 2: And I think she, you know, starting a career meant

391
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Speaker 2: a new career of midlife, very challenging for women. And

392
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Speaker 2: I think she thought that she had found something she

393
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 2: was good at, and by all accounts, she was great

394
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 2: at this. People wanted to be a part of her life.

395
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Speaker 2: She had a huge social network to draw on.

396
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Speaker 1: Are they selling something at the gifting table? How is

397
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:16,680
Speaker 1: this worth?

398
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 2: That's the fascinating part, you know. And I have a

399
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 2: different scheme in my book called the Wheel, but it's

400
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,479
Speaker 2: similar in that they're not selling anything. It's not an

401
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 2: MLLM because you're not marketing anything. What you're selling is

402
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 2: to be in the club. So you're not hawking, say

403
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 2: essential oils or makeup or vitamins or leggings. So you know,

404
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 2: it's not that, and that's in some ways what made

405
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,120
Speaker 2: it feel, I think to many women, not like anything

406
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,640
Speaker 2: other than a women's investment club. How is what they're

407
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,679
Speaker 2: doing any different from day trading or something like that. That, like,

408
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 2: what could be illegal about this? We're not giving someone

409
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 2: bad product, but of course it's a pyramid scheme. It

410
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 2: is illegal, and it's also illegal because the women would

411
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 2: not declare the money that they brought in. Well, no kidding,

412
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 2: I knew that's a big problem. So instead of paying

413
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 2: taxes on forty thousand dollars, you've received eight payment to

414
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 2: eight gifts from different people of five thousand dollars, which

415
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 2: is under the threshold for IRS to report the money,

416
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 2: and so it was obviously designed. Is the frest where

417
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 2: the fraud comes in in addition to buyer fraud because

418
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 2: the women were communicating this is always what they get

419
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,479
Speaker 2: you on. It's not the crime is the cover up.

420
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: But they were communicating about it and advising women ways

421
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 2: to not deposit all the money in your bank at

422
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 2: the same time because then the Bancaster report particularly cash,

423
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 2: but any amounts larger a certain amount, the numbers always changing,

424
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 2: so it didn't get reported to anyone. So it's tax fraud.

425
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: I mean, basically, you're making an investment in your own

426
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: social networking prowess, Like how charming can I be? You know?

427
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: To get these people in, But who are the losers here?

428
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 1: There doesn't seem to be a loser, is there. I mean,

429
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: I know the appetizer level, but you right, you come

430
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: up right at some point.

431
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 2: I think that's what women told themselves about who's being harmed.

432
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Speaker 2: And I think this is sort of the slippery nature

433
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 2: of pyramid schemes because inevitably it can't sustain itself. The

434
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: people who are at first are the only ones who

435
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,679
Speaker 2: ever really make money because it gets so large that

436
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 2: you can't possibly get to the top. And that's the

437
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 2: sort of that's the sort of tyranny of it. So

438
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 2: it think for the outside, you know, they told themselves

439
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 2: that they're just investing in one another, and they want

440
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 2: to bring people into this investment where you know, and

441
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 2: there is a long history in many communities of people

442
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 2: pulling their money to help the person who needs it

443
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 2: the most. And you know, in those communities particularly, it

444
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 2: can be vulnerable to this because it feels like that

445
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 2: to them, right, that this is just everyone helping the

446
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 2: neighbor who lost their house and the fire.

447
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the.

448
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 2: Woman coming in whose you know, husband is sick, or

449
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 2: the woman coming in you know her husband's left her.

450
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 2: She really needs this. We're going to bring her in

451
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 2: so she can ultimately get her dessert. And I think

452
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: that's the that's the dangerous lie that people involved in

453
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 2: these clubs tell themselves.

454
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: This reminds me in some ways not the pyramid scheme.

455
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: But you know, I've talked a lot in about the

456
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds that villages and even bigger cities would collect

457
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: for a burial see, you know, and then you would

458
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 1: give it to whoever needed it. And I always thought

459
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: that was so interesting, like a kind of insurance. You're

460
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 1: paying into it and then you receive it. But what

461
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: if you move and some point you would think they

462
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 1: would pay off, But I don't know.

463
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 2: It is very similar to I think that is sort

464
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 2: of the dangerous enticement of it is that it can feel,

465
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 2: it can feel like this is sisterhood and that language.

466
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 2: A lot of these clubs do use the language of

467
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 2: feminism to sort that we want to support one another,

468
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 2: women supporting women, and a lot of them are actually

469
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 2: called that, and I think that that's sort of the problem.

470
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 2: Of course, you know, a community collecting money for a barrow,

471
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 2: for instance, it's not dependent on you recruiting people to

472
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: get the money if you have the loss. So I

473
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: think that's when it gets stickier. And then the case,

474
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 2: the real life case, one of the problems was eventually

475
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 2: you start to have to recruit people you don't really

476
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 2: know that well and you can't necessarily trust. This is

477
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 2: something I wanted to play out in my book, is

478
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 2: you know, you can't be sure that the secret will

479
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 2: be kept when you're bringing in people that have no

480
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 2: skin in the game, you know. And that's that was

481
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 2: one of the concerns with Barbera because she was so

482
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 2: good at she was recruiting so many people, and like,

483
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 2: who are these women? That's where it gets sticky.

484
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 1: So the women in Connecticut with the gifting table, what

485
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: situation are they all in? I mean, are these all

486
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: and how many are there? Are these all divorces or

487
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: why do they need independence? Are they married?

488
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 2: Some of them are married, some of them are not.

489
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 2: Some of them have health issues or someone in their

490
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 2: family does. Many of them have lost their employment. This

491
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 2: is the recession, of course, so many people did lose

492
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 2: jobs they'd held for twenty years, and so it's a

493
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: real range. But I do think the timing of it

494
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 2: is really on point because they've had their lives disrupted,

495
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 2: and it really speaks to one of the things that

496
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 2: fascinated me about it is this sort of in their

497
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: idea of the American dream, don't consider downward mobility at all,

498
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: And this is really a story of downward mobility. The

499
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 2: idea is if you're like solidly middle class and you

500
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 2: get married, your husband has a good you have your kids,

501
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 2: you buy your house, maybe it's a little beyond your means,

502
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 2: et cetera. But it doesn't build in that your completely

503
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 2: financial situation will be cratered, you know. And that's really

504
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 2: where I think that's just not part of the story

505
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 2: we ever tell ourselves. The idea is that you should

506
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,479
Speaker 2: get more and more secure. You're going to start, you know,

507
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 2: you're saving for your kids college, then you're saving for

508
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 2: your own retirement, and what if that's all taken away?

509
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 2: And I think that's the position many of these women

510
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 2: found themselves. And when you look into the case against

511
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 2: the women that we're involved in this, and you do

512
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,959
Speaker 2: hear all the stories about the women who are involved

513
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 2: in there's some really sad stories in there. It's not

514
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 2: just people that want to get back into the country club.

515
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 2: There are some real decimations. Is we all know healthcare

516
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: in particular is so expensive, and if you get sick

517
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 2: and unexpected illness, then you know, that can really derail

518
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 2: you in a huge way. So the idea that this

519
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,479
Speaker 2: harmless thing that you could do and maybe make some money,

520
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: I think felt you know, like the fatal lure.

521
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I you know, you and I were talking

522
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: about this before, financial literacy, particularly around young women, but

523
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: really everybody, I think always joke I'm a prepper, but

524
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a financial prepper, like I look for every

525
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: what if I lose everything, you know, if nobody wants

526
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: to listen to any of my podcasts anymore? And what

527
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: do we do and how does that work? And you

528
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: know I had said to you before this that I

529
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: wish every high school in America, public, private, wherever, was

530
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: required to have financial literacy classes for students. And I

531
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: know that sometimes they get it, and my kid got

532
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: it in a little bit of economics, but really like

533
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: this is this is kind of what you should be doing,

534
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,959
Speaker 1: and I feel like we don't have a lot of that,

535
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: and so they don't know what to do when they're

536
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: caught off guard in this situation.

537
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: You know, I agree, and I think you know, I

538
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: hear this. You know, particularly women who marry young and

539
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: they don't even look at what they're signing, often with

540
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: their husband. I guess woman, I know all the time

541
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 2: my husband handles that my husband does the taxes. And

542
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: as a piece of financial literacy is you should know

543
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 2: where your money is and the divorce is often you know,

544
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 2: So why people have to get like forensic accountants to

545
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: sort of find the money and that stuff is you know,

546
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: you you know, you don't want to be too deep

547
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:24,959
Speaker 2: in before you find out that you should have been

548
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: paying attention to you know, where all these bank accounts

549
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: have gone, you know, and you know these sort of

550
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: separate accounts. There's just so many ways to hide money.

551
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 2: So I think it's on every level on this financial literacy.

552
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 2: Barbara had to have a crash course in that and

553
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 2: was doing everything she could. But on the other hand,

554
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 2: she was participating in this activity that clearly wasn't going

555
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 2: to serve her and could put her at risk.

556
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: Well, let's go over to the Bishop's sisters in Eldorado

557
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: Drive and then we'll come back, because I know I

558
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: have questions about Barbara still, but I think they're going

559
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: to come up when we start talking about Pam and

560
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: you know the plow. So Harper is out of town

561
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: and then moves back to the suburb of Detroit right

562
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: in twenty ten.

563
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: Yes, she's only she hasn't been gone that long. She's

564
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 2: you know, she's the sister who never married. She's she's

565
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 2: she's gay, which in Gross Pointe, Michigan where I'm from,

566
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 2: Detroit suburbs very conservative and women are supposed to get

567
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 2: married and have children. They're definitely not supposed to be gay.

568
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 2: And so she's always been the outsider in the family.

569
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: She's also the youngest, so she had the briefest period

570
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 2: of time of wealth in her own family, and she

571
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 2: never had, you know, the husband with the fancy job.

572
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: And so I really wanted to create this character who

573
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 2: was on the out, a little bit on the outside

574
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 2: inside the outside. And she in fact isn't a member

575
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: of a country club. She works at a country club.

576
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 2: She you know, she teaches you know, horseback riding. So

577
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 2: she's the outsider. And her sisters, who you know, definitely

578
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 2: led the more straight life, you know, in both senses

579
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 2: of the word, who married and had kids. They're the

580
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: ones who actually bring her in, uh and seduced her

581
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: into into this uh this club.

582
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: Now, Pam, I know you said is based on Barbara.

583
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: Did you start with Pam and then build people around her?

584
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: And you made Harper the outsider because that's a I mean,

585
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: that's a great way to kind of get an objective opinion,

586
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: ironically within your own family.

587
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. And Pam became ultimately somewhat different than Barbara, I

588
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 2: suppose in part because Pam is more based on a

589
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: lot of the women I grew up with a lot

590
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: of ghost point women. Because in some ways Barbara was

591
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: a more worldly woman because her husband had immense wellth

592
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: far more than Pam in my book, and was, you know,

593
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: globe trotting. You know, her husband was an international money person,

594
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: you know, and was in Dubai and you know, but

595
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 2: I really wanted someone more down, you know, down to

596
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 2: you had had less of that worldly experience and had

597
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: never really left her suburb. But so she's sort of shifted.

598
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 2: But what she does have in common I think with

599
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 2: Barbara is that she is very vibrant, very vivacious. She

600
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: is someone you want to be around, and so I

601
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: wanted the point of view to be someone that sees

602
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,239
Speaker 2: her that way too, but also sees her complexity, her

603
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: darker side, you know, her weaknesses, and you seem like

604
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 2: the sister is a sister, especially a younger sister who's

605
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 2: always going to look up to the starry sister, have

606
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 2: that view of her, and I guess I do tend

607
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 2: to always it's the I guess they call sometimes they

608
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,479
Speaker 2: call it the Nick Carraway figure. I tend to have

609
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 2: the main character be someone a little on the outside,

610
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: could be like a stand in for the reader, so

611
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: that Pam's you know, the questions that Harper has about

612
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 2: Pam are the ones the reader has about Pam too.

613
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: Now this will be a question that applies to both

614
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: Barbara and Pam. How aware are either of them that

615
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: this is truly illegal? They could go to jail, this

616
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: is wrong, and this is potentially hurting people financially they're involving.

617
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: With Yeah, I mean, I can't I can't know if

618
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 2: what if Barbara ever thought any of this was illegal,

619
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 2: and there certainly wrote Pam is that she's you know,

620
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 2: I wouldn't think of Carmela Soprano. You're choosing not to

621
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: look too closely. That's how I really see her, is

622
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 2: like she's smart enough to know better. This is if

623
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

624
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: But she's not looking closely. She's completely caught up in it.

625
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 2: She's addicted to it.

626
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:44,439
Speaker 1: This is this is.

627
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 2: You know, in another if she had lived another life,

628
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 2: she would have been a CEO. She's great at this,

629
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 2: and because of the course her life take, she ends

630
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 2: up in this this illegal version of what some corporations do.

631
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 2: And I think they're you know, all the women in

632
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 2: the club in my book have different ways that they

633
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 2: talk themselves into this being okay, and that their husbands,

634
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 2: working from the big auto companies in the case of

635
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: my book, are very aware of loopholes that big companies take.

636
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 2: They're very aware of like a little accounting tricks, They're

637
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 2: very aware of dubious trading activities, et cetera. So I

638
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 2: don't think this looks any different from that to them,

639
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 2: and who are they hurting? So I think that's the

640
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 2: way that people can sort of justify it to themselves

641
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: is the sadder thing. And there's a few characters in

642
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 2: my book that examply this is that I think some

643
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 2: women and I could have been one of them. Aren't

644
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 2: sophisticated enough to even have any idea this could be illegal?

645
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: Doesn't seem illegal of them at all. It is something

646
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 2: you have to think about why it's illegal too. I mean,

647
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 2: I'll be honest. I you know, when I was working

648
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 2: on the book, or talking to my published, my editor

649
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 2: and my agent, and when I was you know, all

650
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 2: these different stages, we all had to keep reminding ourselves, Wait,

651
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,280
Speaker 2: why can't you do this again?

652
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: Because you hit a ceiling that's why.

653
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, but the math isn't.

654
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: Mathing, No, it's not. And so how big was Barbara's organization?

655
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: I had forgotten.

656
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: No, no one knows really, because of course they only

657
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 2: found out the people they found out. And there's in

658
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 2: the Wonderful Again Murder of Middle Beach is the documentary.

659
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 2: No one knows how big it got because there were

660
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: rumors that some of the women had multiple tables in

661
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 2: different parts of Connecticut. So you didn't if you really

662
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: wanted to make money, you didn't have just one table,

663
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 2: because then you hit the top and you have to

664
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: start the bottom again. But why would you do that

665
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 2: when you can have many tables going? And so no

666
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 2: one knows. You know, they prosecuted two of the quote

667
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 2: unquote ring leaders, but no one knows how many people

668
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 2: were involved.

669
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: What about in the wheel in Eldorado Drive. Is it

670
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: the same kind of thing? Nebulous.

671
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: No, it's in its very early days. So I really

672
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 2: wanted to see how this thing starts, how it can

673
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 2: begin so small, it starts to balloon as the book

674
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 2: goes on. But I really wanted to see what it

675
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 2: was like on the ground, on the ground level, when

676
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 2: you've become involved in something like that, because I think

677
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 2: it's too it's also when you can still tell yourself

678
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 2: that this is just our our thing, this is just

679
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 2: our club, this is just something we're doing to support

680
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 2: each other.

681
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: I think you probably talk a lot about trust in

682
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: your book, and in the case of Barbara, you know

683
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: what struck me. You were saying was that it was

684
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: her aunt who brought her into this. Yes, so you

685
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: know there is that trust. And when I interviewed the

686
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 1: author about the Ponzi scheme out of Africa, it was

687
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: you know, you're never dealing with the big Cahuna, You're

688
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: dealing with your friend who was brought into it. Is

689
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 1: that sort of a carry over. I mean, you've got

690
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: these two women who were drawn in by their sister,

691
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: Is that right?

692
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, And it is a big thing because in

693
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 2: some ways, first it becomes why didn't you tell me

694
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 2: about this? And you know, this is the secret you've

695
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 2: been keeping, And then when things start to go awry,

696
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: how could you involve me in this thing? You know?

697
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 2: And it's sort of to me the most insidious aspect

698
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 2: of both pyramid schemes and certain MLMs is that the

699
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 2: whole idea is that you invite your friends and family

700
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: and the people in your life. So that's the pitch,

701
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: why wouldn't you help them, when, of course really is

702
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 2: is that social currency and the personal currency you're exploiting

703
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 2: to make your own money. But it's also why again

704
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel like you're doing anything wrong because you're

705
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 2: just trying to help the people closest to you. It's

706
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 2: the double edged quality of it, which is really again

707
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 2: I think speaks to this American dream thing that you're

708
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 2: supposed to be able to this. This is what we do,

709
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: you know this. It's the mix of the individual achieving

710
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 2: and the community supporting.

711
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: So at what point in your book does Harper and

712
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: or Deborah. It occurs to them that this is too

713
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: fast or it's going too deeply, and this is really risky,

714
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 1: and they look at Pam and go, what are we

715
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: doing here?

716
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 2: I think it works differently for the two of them,

717
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 2: but I think they start to get worried when and

718
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 2: this is interesting a lot of these clubs, you know,

719
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 2: if you were very successful at it, you could sponsor

720
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 2: women who couldn't maybe afford to enter, and you pay

721
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 2: their five thousand dollars in, but then that person has

722
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 2: no skin in the game and if they can't afford

723
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 2: to get in. I think a lot of the feeling

724
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 2: in my book is the other women feel this is

725
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 2: someone that's not going to be able to bring in

726
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 2: more women either. Yeah, so that's when they that's when

727
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 2: there starts to be real anxiety and dissension in the club,

728
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,760
Speaker 2: and that's when things get really dark.

729
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 1: How far does this end up going? Because this is

730
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: a you know, crime mystery thriller novel.

731
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 2: There's definitely a crime beyond financial crime, and it has

732
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: sort of multiple consequences, of course, because what I really

733
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 2: wanted to do is this is create a family that

734
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 2: you feel like, you know, and the extent to which

735
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 2: there are interpersonal relationships and this scheme they're all involved

736
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 2: in become inextricable. Really once things go awry and everything

737
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 2: everything is sort of on the everything becomes exposed. In

738
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 2: other words, you know, everything is everything is revealed. That's

739
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 2: when there's no denying that. You know, you have to

740
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 2: face it. That's when you have to face it, as

741
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 2: everyone does. Who's presumably who's involved in one of these schemes.

742
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 2: That's when you have to face that you were a

743
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 2: part of this, and that you brought people in and

744
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 2: you see, you know that couldn't afford to be here,

745
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 2: shouldn't be here, maybe have emotional vulnerabilities that are making

746
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 2: they even more. You know, it's sort of the notion.

747
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 2: It's like a sales notion. You know, sometimes you're you're

748
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 2: targeting someone who's weak, who wants to be your friend,

749
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: who wants to talk to you, and you know that's

750
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: that always, to me is one of the saddest parts

751
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 2: are bringing in people who don't have the capacity or

752
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: in a desperate situation and don't really realize what they're

753
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 2: getting into, and it's you're on the hook for it, and.

754
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: I'm sure you'll have an opinion about this. But I

755
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 1: do often wonder how people what happens in their head

756
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 1: that makes them switch and just go, Okay, fuck it,

757
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 1: I'm just going to do this. I really believe that.

758
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: You know, there are people certainly who were born with

759
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,919
Speaker 1: some disadvantages as far as personality defects stuff like that,

760
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 1: but a lot of it is your environment. So you know,

761
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: did you think about that, like, at what point did

762
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: Pam and Deborah and then you know, having Harper come in?

763
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: They were all coming in for different reasons, right, and

764
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: you really have to dig into those reasons.

765
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and you have to consider too. I mean I

766
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 2: think about this a lot because one of the reasons

767
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: I was so interested in, even though this case was

768
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 2: twenty ten, there were so many of these ring circles

769
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 2: clubs out of it came into prominence during the pandemic,

770
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 2: and I think there you not only have people's emotional

771
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 2: and circumstantial things that make them vulnerable, but you have

772
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,760
Speaker 2: people who are panicked about being able to feed their kids,

773
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 2: to pay their rent, and you have you know, this

774
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: my book and the real life case are pre social media,

775
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 2: So you don't have this phone in your pocket or

776
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: in your hand that is now. Social media is the

777
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 2: way recruitment occurs. So you're seeing in your Instagram your

778
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 2: friend is telling you I want you to join my

779
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 2: circle and why don't you be a part of it?

780
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 2: And you can get this too, and that feels extremely dangerous,

781
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: especially at this age when we're all sort of questioning

782
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 2: how much of what we see on our phone is

783
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 2: real or not. Feels really frightening. And there was a

784
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 2: huge spike in these during the pandemic, and they feel

785
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 2: with a lot of the economic uncertainty, I'm sure it's continuing.

786
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: So this isn't just people with you know who because

787
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 2: of the way they grew up, and that certainly also true.

788
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 2: Have are vulnerable to persuasion or wanting to belong, which

789
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 2: I think is the case of a lot of it.

790
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 2: But it's people who are frightened about the future to

791
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 2: such a degree that they will take a chance in

792
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: the same way that they might give their credit card

793
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 2: to some suspicious website or do any of the things

794
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: that we might do in that situation. And there is

795
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 2: two and this might speak more to what you're talking

796
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: about environmental or our environment, our upbringing. In some of

797
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: these real life cases They've talked about how the women

798
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 2: were lonely and wanted to have a social group and

799
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 2: they felt they were a part of something for the

800
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:10,280
Speaker 2: first time, often since childhood, since girls scouts or sororities

801
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 2: or and that was huge for them and they wanted

802
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: to be a part of this clique. And that is

803
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 2: really that's really sad to me.

804
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: Do you know how police figure this out in real

805
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 1: life with the clubs? I don't know if this if

806
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 1: this intersects it all with your book, but you know

807
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: how this is all put together, you know, just an investigation.

808
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 1: Is it usually people like flagging it? Or is it

809
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,720
Speaker 1: the irs? Or what happens?

810
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 2: And the ones that I've read about which there are many,

811
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 2: I mean, you just need to google this and you

812
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 2: will see it is usually a disgruntled person who didn't

813
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 2: ever make their money. Occasionally someone who was approached and

814
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 2: thought it was you know, hinky, as they might say

815
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 2: in the Midwest. But it's often someone who felt like

816
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: they put their money in and they never were getting

817
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 2: any closer because somehow the rules were always changing. This

818
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 2: happens a lot where they say you just need to

819
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 2: recruit this number of people and the target keeps changing

820
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 2: because the women at the top don't want to give

821
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: up the top spot, and they find these sort of

822
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 2: because they're making the rules. And then conversely, one of

823
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 2: the ways they get real evidence. And I'm sure, I

824
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 2: hope no one's doing this anymore, but they would often

825
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 2: have a manual where they would tell you what the

826
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 2: rules are. And of course, once if you give that

827
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 2: to someone and they bring that to the district's office,

828
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 2: you're in trouble because that is a fraud and conspiracy.

829
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 2: So they often get them on the same charge as

830
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:43,399
Speaker 2: they would the mob.

831
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: And so in your book, who is the main investigator?

832
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 1: And in your books in general, do you always have

833
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: a detective?

834
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 2: No? No, okay, and I don't in this one either,

835
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 2: So yeah, I tend to I don't really I love

836
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 2: reading procedurals. I don't really really write more about criminals

837
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 2: than about law enforcement. You know, in the real life case,

838
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 2: you know, they had built it quite a quite a

839
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 2: case against the women. Though if you watch the documentary,

840
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 2: the aunt who brought the men really feels that they

841
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 2: had done She continues to say in that documentary she

842
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 2: feels they were unfairly targeted because of the homicide, that

843
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 2: they had nothing to do with them. She's pretty bitter

844
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: about it all. So despite if you read some of

845
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 2: these legal you know, the charges, the indictment, and the

846
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 2: appeal they had, and a lot of these ones have

847
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 2: like an attorney or an accountant that they involved in

848
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 2: the club to cover themselves. And in that case, I

849
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 2: can't remember if it was an attorney or accountant testified

850
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 2: about why it wasn't illegal. I was not convincing, but yes,

851
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:59,240
Speaker 2: you could imagine. But so it gets sticky. It definitely

852
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: gets sticky. But hopefully anyone doing it now knows, don't

853
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: put anything in writing, don't text about it, don't make

854
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 2: phone calls about.

855
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 1: It, stop giving them tips. So, as you know, with

856
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: Barbara's story, she dies before anything, you know, it's exposed

857
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: or she has to explain anything or anything, you know,

858
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: So there's there's an open ended question about how much

859
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: did she know and how much does it play into

860
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: her death? What did her something about this?

861
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 2: It's such a beautiful portrait of his mother, whom he

862
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 2: clearly loves very much, and now he's devoted many years

863
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 2: to trying to discover this, and you know, in the

864
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 2: documentary he confronts his father. He interviews all the relevant parties,

865
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 2: and he presents a very full and you know of

866
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 2: her sort of her, her strengths, her her loving qualities foremost,

867
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 2: but also that you know her sort of weaknesses. Has

868
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 2: in a way you were rarely get with a parent.

869
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,240
Speaker 2: He has a three hundred and sixty degree view of her,

870
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 2: and he's continued to try to. I mean, there's a

871
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 2: whole other issue with the police departments and police department

872
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 2: about why have they claim they're still investigating and as

873
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 2: of April, they posted a fifty thousand dollars reward for

874
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 2: anny information leading to the arrest and conviction, But they

875
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: have claimed in their refusal to give over everything to

876
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 2: Barbara's son, they have claimed it's because it's still an

877
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 2: active case and they have a suspect in mind, but

878
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 2: they won't name a suspect, and no one knows about

879
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 2: what the DNA. They only know that they cleared the

880
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 2: husband from the DNA. No one knows anything else about any.

881
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: Of it, and they don't even know what the DNA is,

882
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: if it's nails or no.

883
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 2: They haven't released It's possible that the Sun has that

884
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 2: because he did get a lot of the files, but

885
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 2: he didn't get all of them, and there were some

886
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 2: very strange gaps in what they didn't give him. So

887
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 2: I don't know what that story is. This is this

888
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 2: is the son's point of view on what's going on.

889
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 2: But I think he suggested that there was some batching

890
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 2: of the crime scene, and that's that's a larger question,

891
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 2: I think. But he's still he's still fighting it.

892
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 1: You know, do you think about at the beginning of

893
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: the book, do you think about your three characters and

894
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: you think, what do they want by the end of

895
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 1: this book? Do you like to actually make that kind

896
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: of a priority that what's their one goal? And you know,

897
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: I've heard people talk about this and the reader doesn't

898
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 1: really care if they get it or not. They just

899
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 1: they want to know that they might or they might not,

900
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: and that's what drives them to the end of the book.

901
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 1: Do you do that?

902
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 2: I do think. I don't think it's usually one thing.

903
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 2: For me. There are a few things, but then what

904
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 2: happens is I discover them. You know, well, Harper and

905
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 2: Deborah characters I've created a whole cloth and Pam who

906
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 2: you know, starred as a barbera type and then moves

907
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: into our own category. They've become different people. They take

908
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 2: on of people I know and myself, and then I

909
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 2: discover things about them that I didn't know when I

910
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: started the book, and then I realized what they really want,

911
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 2: and it's seldom what I thought they wanted. So I think,

912
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 2: I don't think I could write the book if I

913
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,959
Speaker 2: stayed too rigid and what I thought they wanted. Maybe

914
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 2: it's just I can't think that, you know. A part

915
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 2: of it is the experience of writing. It's like solving

916
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 2: a mystery. The mystery and these characters for me, but

917
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 2: I often, you know, by the time I reached the end,

918
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 2: I've discovered so many things about them that the revision

919
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 2: process is very much about, you know, ratconning what I

920
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 2: now know about them to make everything fit because they

921
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 2: you know, not to be too woo woo about it,

922
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 2: but they do change for me as I write it,

923
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:47,720
Speaker 2: as they as they become full body.

924
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: Well, it's like for me doing nonfiction and doing research

925
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 1: on one person. You know, you do it, you go

926
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: all the way to the end. And like when I

927
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 1: wrote American Sherlock, which is about a forensic scientist in

928
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties. I was done with the book, and

929
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 1: then I figured out that this guy, you know, the

930
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:07,399
Speaker 1: forensic scientist's father, had taken his own life over finances.

931
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, I'm kind of like,

932
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 1: oh my god, this explains everything because he's very OCD

933
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,760
Speaker 1: and it explains why he kept forty different leather bound

934
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: journals that you know, where he tallied every penny that

935
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 1: he ever spent. So that I think nonfiction people will

936
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: go through that too, where you you find something you go,

937
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: oh god, I've got to do something about this.

938
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 2: Totally yes, that, And I've heard nonfiction writers say that

939
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 2: so many times, where like the Rosebuds so to speak,

940
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 2: emerges late in.

941
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 3: The game, and then sometimes even afterward where you'll get

942
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 3: like they'll write something a PostScript, and then the paperback

943
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,839
Speaker 3: edition where something will emerge after because something will someone

944
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:48,280
Speaker 3: will will write and come forward.

945
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 2: And I think that's fascinating. I mean, people are really intricate,

946
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 2: complex creatures, and I think the notion that we can

947
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 2: never completely know someone is sort of a fan to see.

948
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 2: But that's sort of the that's sort of why we

949
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 2: write these things, right, to try to get to the

950
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 2: bottom of it. To solve something.

951
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: Do you use the end of the book in any

952
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: way to connect with Barbara in some other way, you know,

953
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,800
Speaker 1: like in one of the books I wrote, it inspired

954
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: Nathaniel Hawthorne to write The Scarlet Letter, and I think

955
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 1: a lot of people believe it was this woman, Sarah's

956
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 1: Cornell story that was sort of his way of kind

957
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 1: of this is what I wish could have happened to

958
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 1: Sarah Cornell had she not been murdered. Do you do

959
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 1: that in any of your books too?

960
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 2: Once the characters become different, it wouldn't feel it wouldn't

961
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 2: feel right to the real life people. I guess the

962
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 2: thing I you know, writing nonfiction, it makes perfect sense

963
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 2: to me that that would happen. But writing fiction, I

964
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 2: would feel it was disrespectful in some way because I've

965
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 2: changed them and this story is not that story. And

966
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 2: I always would worry about that I was saying things

967
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 2: about real people when I'm not that The issues of

968
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 2: the real life case just completely fascinated me. I'm very

969
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 2: moved by Barbara's story. I feel even obnoxious using people's

970
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,240
Speaker 2: first natmes, but for convenience, you know, because I didn't

971
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,399
Speaker 2: know her. But I'm very moved by and I'm very

972
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,959
Speaker 2: moved by her son's portrayal of her. And I think

973
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 2: and because it's such a victim forward documentary, I'm very

974
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 2: moved by the centering of the victims. So I think

975
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 2: that that he gives that to her, and that's why

976
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 2: it affected me so much.

977
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: I think, Well, I will humbly suggest that you, if

978
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: you're not already, listen to Baried Bones, my other show

979
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 1: with Paul Holes, because we talk about these old cases

980
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: in a very personal way and you'll be shocked you

981
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: hear a case from eighteen fifty six and then go, WHOA.

982
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 1: I could definitely use that in my book because it's

983
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: the same. People are the same, you know, they commit

984
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 1: crimes for the same reasons.

985
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 2: That's right. We go through these ways. So it's just

986
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 2: sort of like, you know, talking about the recession and

987
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 2: then the next recession and then how these things emerge.

988
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 2: And I think this is this is very true. You know,

989
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 2: you see the lot with sex crimes through moments of

990
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 2: cultural disruption and fear of women, you know, end of

991
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 2: World War two, veterans coming back from the war, uh,

992
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 2: and there's a you know these sort of you know,

993
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 2: you really see how changes in the culture bring up

994
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 2: just literally just start the pattern over again. You know,

995
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 2: there's sort of waves of these eternal drives that you know,

996
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 2: lead us to dark places.

997
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: So we kind of talked about this, but I think

998
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: it's a good place to end too. I think what's

999
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 1: powerful about nonfiction and fiction is when people look at

1000
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 1: your book and go, mystery thriller. You know, crime novelists,

1001
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 1: let's go, I'll take it, and then that when they

1002
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 1: put the book down, oftentimes they get a whole lot

1003
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 1: more than they bargain for. And that's what good true

1004
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: crime should do. It doesn't do it sometimes, but it

1005
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,799
Speaker 1: should do. So what is for for you? I know

1006
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 1: that you know, we've talked about themes sisterhood and women

1007
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 1: with money and and desperate situations. But is there sort

1008
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 1: of a couple of different things that you really feel

1009
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: like is a big takeaway or warning or something?

1010
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I would never sort of you know,

1011
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,839
Speaker 2: have like a prognosis or something, but I would love

1012
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 2: it if if it's provoked conversations about women and their

1013
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 2: relationships and money and how you know how much it

1014
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 2: can be not just money, and it's always about money, money,

1015
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,800
Speaker 2: but it's about it can be tied issues of independence

1016
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 2: and power and freedom and revenge, and that you know,

1017
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 2: how we all grew up. Any of the way we

1018
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 2: grew up, we all have things that are very wired

1019
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 2: in us about whether never feeling like we have enough money,

1020
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 2: not knowing how to stop spending money and stuff is

1021
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:55,319
Speaker 2: fired in deep and it's and I think that to

1022
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 2: me is if there can be more open discussion about that.

1023
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 2: People are very afraid to talk about their issues with

1024
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 2: money and money problems, and I feel like the more

1025
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:07,439
Speaker 2: open it can be about it. And as you say

1026
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 2: financial literacy, you know, it's sort of one of the

1027
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,720
Speaker 2: reasons Susie Armand became such success is the only person

1028
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 2: that was talking and giving people advice about this. And

1029
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 2: I think I think it's real and somehow we have

1030
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 2: sort of break that taboo.

1031
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think understanding the stock market why, I

1032
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,360
Speaker 1: know people think it's for the wealthy. It all trickles

1033
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 1: down when things are happening badly. So well, listen. I

1034
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: think it's a great book. I love that you use

1035
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,439
Speaker 1: inspiration consider the seventeen hundreds and the eighteen hundreds. It's

1036
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: full of drawinga family conflict.

1037
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 2: I love it I love it.

1038
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,359
Speaker 1: Listen and then if you like more, I'll give you

1039
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: whatever we have for research because I think, I think

1040
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: it's a great way to jump off into a good

1041
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,720
Speaker 1: book because there's a human feeling, you know, human element

1042
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,359
Speaker 1: to it that I think sometimes it's hard to even

1043
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: figure out where to start, and once you get that kernel,

1044
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 1: you can just take off. And that's what you did.

1045
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:59,359
Speaker 2: I well, yeah, no, I have loved ideas someone who

1046
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 2: studied nineteenth century American literature in school. I you know,

1047
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 2: when you said Nathaniel Hawthor, my ears pricked up too,

1048
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,719
Speaker 2: because I mean that I think, as you say, to

1049
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 2: find out, you know, how similar we really are and

1050
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 2: how the crimes of passion, the familial issues, everything is

1051
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 2: completely identify with it now. I mean, that's why we

1052
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 2: love this stuff. Right.

1053
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1054
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

1055
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock, and Don't Forget There are

1056
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

1057
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

1058
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

1059
00:57:56,320 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our Senior producer is Alexa Amrosi.

1060
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 1: Our Associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

1061
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis heath is our composer, artwork by

1062
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and

1063
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Listen to Wicked Words on the iHeartRadio app,

1064
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow Wicked

1065
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 1: Words on Instagram at tenfold more Wicked, and on Facebook

1066
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 1: at wicked Words Pod