WEBVTT - Self-Compassion Roadmap with Dr. Sula Windgassen

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Girl. Welcome

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<v Speaker 1>back to I Choose Me. I am continuing my conversation

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<v Speaker 1>with doctor Sula wind Gassen, author of the book It's

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<v Speaker 1>All in Your Body, a practical roadmap to healing through

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<v Speaker 1>mind body connection. And as I was preparing for this

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<v Speaker 1>bonus episode, doctor Sula, my first thought was to focus

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<v Speaker 1>on the action items. Can you share a little mini

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<v Speaker 1>roadmap to healing for those with chronic pain or other sufferings.

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<v Speaker 1>You know in your book you say you can't skip

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<v Speaker 1>to action. What do you explain why that's important to

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<v Speaker 1>understand your body first before you jump into action.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, quite simply because if we don't understand how

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<v Speaker 2>it's work, and we tend to get bogged down by

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<v Speaker 2>these narratives of I'm causing it, it's my fault, and

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<v Speaker 2>that pushes in directions that don't serve us. Either they

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<v Speaker 2>elevate the pressure or they mean that we act super

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<v Speaker 2>reactively to what's going on, and then you know, we

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<v Speaker 2>get stuck in what I call these psycho biological cycles

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<v Speaker 2>where you know, we're responding to our body in this

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<v Speaker 2>in particular ways and that feeds then into our biology

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<v Speaker 2>and then we get stuck. So when we understand the

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<v Speaker 2>physiology and how that meets our psychological experience and our

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<v Speaker 2>social experience, it paves the way for taking the pressure

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<v Speaker 2>off and then really working with what's going on for you.

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<v Speaker 2>So that is really fundamental from like the science point

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<v Speaker 2>of view, and then, as we were talking about in

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<v Speaker 2>the episode, the interceptive awareness point of view, really getting

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<v Speaker 2>to know your body inside out, recognizing its whispers so

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<v Speaker 2>you don't have to hear its screams is what I

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<v Speaker 2>always say.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, get to it before. That's a lot harder to manage,

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<v Speaker 1>it is it really is. It sounds like once you've

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<v Speaker 1>been told your physical or emotional pain is in your

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<v Speaker 1>head by someone you should trust, it's very hard to

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<v Speaker 1>unwind that sort of gas lighting. Yes, can you help

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<v Speaker 1>us sort of find that doctor for the first time?

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<v Speaker 1>What kind of questions should we ask when we're first

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<v Speaker 1>meeting a new doctor and are there red flags to

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<v Speaker 1>avoid and to know that maybe that's not the doctor

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<v Speaker 1>for us?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the very first thing is to be really clear

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<v Speaker 2>on what you want from the outcome of the appointment,

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<v Speaker 2>so you know, if it's particular answers, if it's particular

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<v Speaker 2>information if it's a particular treatment pathway, really really helps

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<v Speaker 2>to write down this is what I want from it,

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<v Speaker 2>this is what I want clarified. You know that these

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<v Speaker 2>would be the ideal next steps, and then when you're

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<v Speaker 2>speaking with your doctor sharing that the outset, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm coming for this appointment because of this, and these

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<v Speaker 2>are the things that I'm hoping to get out of it.

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<v Speaker 2>And I guess the red flags are if you feel

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<v Speaker 2>like they're talking over you, if they feel like if

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<v Speaker 2>you feel like they're not listening to you, if you

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<v Speaker 2>feel like they are disregarding what you're saying you want

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<v Speaker 2>without giving you adequate explanation. This is not collaborative care.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you've been dismissed before, it's only going to

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<v Speaker 2>cause more. I mean, it's only going to be difficult anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>regardless if you've been dismissed before. But if you have

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<v Speaker 2>been before, then it's only going to add to that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of feeling unsafe in those appointments. So feel free

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<v Speaker 2>to look for another provider. I know it's different in

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<v Speaker 2>the US to that it's quite in the UK it's

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<v Speaker 2>kind of get what you can get. But I think

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<v Speaker 2>even in the UN we can ask for a different

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<v Speaker 2>doctor in a different way.

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<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of times people feel guilty about

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<v Speaker 1>leaving their doctor even though they're feeling underserved by them.

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<v Speaker 1>I've been in that position, and I've also I also

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<v Speaker 1>really agree with what you said about write it down,

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<v Speaker 1>make a list, because it's happened to me so many times,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it is in therapy or a doctor's appointment where

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<v Speaker 1>I'll be racing to get there and I've got a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of things going on and they'll say, okay, so

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<v Speaker 1>what are you here for today and what do you

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<v Speaker 1>want to know? And I'll say, I don't know, just

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<v Speaker 1>how am I doing? You know, like, it gets really general,

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<v Speaker 1>and then you're not going to get as much as

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<v Speaker 1>you need to out of that appointment.

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<v Speaker 2>And when you're feeling stressed or vulnerable, even if you

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<v Speaker 2>knew exactly what you were going to be saying before

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<v Speaker 2>you went there, it can just leave your mind. You

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<v Speaker 2>know that, that's a very real kind of physiological process

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<v Speaker 2>that happens. Your brain gets blocked. So if the appointment

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<v Speaker 2>feels particularly high stakes as well, that's why it needs

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<v Speaker 2>to happen. So do help yourself out by having it

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<v Speaker 2>written down.

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<v Speaker 1>I think so many times, do we feel rushed in

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<v Speaker 1>the appointments? Yeah, and then that causes you to think, oh, no,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm being rushed, and then you just forget what you

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<v Speaker 1>needed to know in the first place. Your book talks

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<v Speaker 1>so much about safety, and you say that our bodies

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<v Speaker 1>are always looking for danger.

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<v Speaker 2>What is it to you?

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<v Speaker 1>What does it mean to feel safe? And what are

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<v Speaker 1>some ways that we can help ourselves move toward feeling safe.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a really great question. We often think of

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<v Speaker 2>safe as something that is absence of, like physical danger,

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<v Speaker 2>right of being in harm's way, but safe is much

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<v Speaker 2>more multi dimensional than that. So in the book, I

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<v Speaker 2>talk about these core safety needs that we have beyond

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<v Speaker 2>kind of basic physical safety from harm. There's social safety,

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<v Speaker 2>so relational safety that we feel like we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>be cared for and looked after. There's also feeling that

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<v Speaker 2>we have some kind of sense of control, this feeling

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<v Speaker 2>that we have value and a sense of meaning. And

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<v Speaker 2>there's a couple more as well. So you can see

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<v Speaker 2>that these safety needs are beyond just am I imminently

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<v Speaker 2>going to get eaten or you know, evolutionarily but in

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<v Speaker 2>the present day, like attacked or whatever it might be. Physically.

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<v Speaker 2>It goes, you know, into our sense of worth and

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<v Speaker 2>how we feel like we can show up in the

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<v Speaker 2>world in a way that's meaningful to us. So our

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<v Speaker 2>brain and nervous system and regulatory systems are constantly getting

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<v Speaker 2>information about do we have access to that safety or

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<v Speaker 2>do we not, which is why, you know, one of

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<v Speaker 2>the things that comes up a lot in the people

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<v Speaker 2>with the people that I work with is I feel like,

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<v Speaker 2>if this gets any worse, then I'm not going to

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<v Speaker 2>be able to do what I love. And then what,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, life isn't worth anything if I can't whether

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<v Speaker 2>it's work, or whether it's be a good mom or

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's you know, whatever it might be. And that

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<v Speaker 2>then keeps the brain super vigilant, keeps it looking out

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<v Speaker 2>for signs that you're losing that function you're not going

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<v Speaker 2>to be able to do that, the nervous systems on

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<v Speaker 2>the lookout. And so what safety feels like can be

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<v Speaker 2>different in different contexts, but all safety counts. So that

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<v Speaker 2>and I think, you know, helping your body to experience

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<v Speaker 2>the spectrum of safety. How does it feel to know

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<v Speaker 2>that you're not going to have to be accosted by

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<v Speaker 2>someone unpleasant? Now? That you're sat in your living room

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<v Speaker 2>just even kind of taking a moment to feel like that. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you might feel unsafe in other ways, but we can

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<v Speaker 2>still encode what it feels like to be safe in

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<v Speaker 2>that respect. How does it feel like to feel valued

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<v Speaker 2>by your partner who's just paid your compliment or something

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<v Speaker 2>like that. So these mini moments of safety, they don't

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily counterfract all of the different types of threat and

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<v Speaker 2>stresses that you've got, but they still give your body

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<v Speaker 2>some kind of calibration.

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<v Speaker 1>It makes sense, definitely so important. What are some core

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<v Speaker 1>skills that we need to have when it comes to

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<v Speaker 1>processing our emotions for better physical and emotional wellbeing.

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<v Speaker 2>One is something called metacognitive awareness. So that is something

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<v Speaker 2>that we can build as a skill, and that means

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<v Speaker 2>to be able to observe our mental experiences, whether that's

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<v Speaker 2>thoughts or our emotions, which I would argue kind of

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<v Speaker 2>body experiences, but you know, a lot of us think

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<v Speaker 2>of them as mental experiences where we can see that

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<v Speaker 2>sperience and observe it, and we're not you know, in

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<v Speaker 2>amongst it. So an analogy for this is you're watching

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<v Speaker 2>the train from a bridge and the train's going past,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know that's your your thought processes, and you're

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<v Speaker 2>noticing where your attention's going. When you've got metic cognitive awareness,

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<v Speaker 2>you can be on that bridge orbit you'll jump back

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<v Speaker 2>on the train at some point, but then you can

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<v Speaker 2>get yourself out again. Whereas when we lack that, we're

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<v Speaker 2>just on the train. We're just going with this full

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<v Speaker 2>train of thoughts and there's no separation. When we don't

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<v Speaker 2>have so much metic cognitive awareness, we're so identified with

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<v Speaker 2>what our brain comes up with that it's it's a

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<v Speaker 2>much more vulnerable place. When you develop this ability to

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<v Speaker 2>see these mental events arise and have some separation, you

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<v Speaker 2>you have the opportunity to evaluate and interrupt these default

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<v Speaker 2>kind of brain shot pits. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>I talk about that sometimes about how important it is

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<v Speaker 1>to not believe every stupid thing in your mind tells

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<v Speaker 1>you absolutely because they can. It can carry you off

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<v Speaker 1>in really unhealthy directions.

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<v Speaker 2>It really does.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm like checking in to see, you know, what's

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<v Speaker 1>really going on right now instead of letting your mind

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<v Speaker 1>just take control because it likes to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's trying to save you. You know, it

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<v Speaker 2>does feel sometimes like it's being vindictive. It's really not right.

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<v Speaker 1>But there's talk about like the mind but like your

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<v Speaker 1>fight or flight, and like our minds are designed to

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<v Speaker 1>keep us away from danger. So everything feels like a danger,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's during your day here and there, but

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<v Speaker 1>we have to kind of override that or step back

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<v Speaker 1>and assess, like, am I really in danger right now?

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<v Speaker 2>Have you heard of that saying that the mind is

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<v Speaker 2>like teeslon for the good stuff just slips right off,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's like balcro for the for the bad stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>and it will just stick on.

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<v Speaker 1>It's so true. Yeah, we need to get a smoother pan.

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<v Speaker 1>We know our scratchy devlon. What do you? You have

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<v Speaker 1>a roadmap to healing, right, and it offers a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of ways to help others along their journey, because sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>I have a friend who has chronic pain, and I

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<v Speaker 1>know that that can feel so isolating from the people

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<v Speaker 1>in her life. But you talk about how important it

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<v Speaker 1>is to discuss your own healing with others along the

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<v Speaker 1>way and not try to do everything on our own.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's really hard, you know, going back to that

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<v Speaker 2>experience of being told it's all in your head. One

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<v Speaker 2>of the effects of that is you feel like, oh, well,

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<v Speaker 2>it's all on me. Then I have to figure this

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<v Speaker 2>out on my own. I'm not being taken seriously. If

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<v Speaker 2>I don't take charge, no one else will. And then that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, lends itself to more isolation. I just need

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<v Speaker 2>to get my head down and work out the ways

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<v Speaker 2>that this is going to work for me. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>that generalizes really quick, from the doctor that dismissed you

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<v Speaker 2>to you know, a mother in law that said not

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<v Speaker 2>very nice things, or you know a father in law

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<v Speaker 2>who doesn't quite get it, or your own parents whoever.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, these comments catch on quick, and then you

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<v Speaker 2>feel like, well, they said it, they think that, so

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<v Speaker 2>everybody else will. So I'm not going to and because

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<v Speaker 2>it feels so horrible to be in that situation of

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<v Speaker 2>really suffering and have people just not get it and

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<v Speaker 2>maybe also say quite unhelpful things to you or even

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<v Speaker 2>harsh things to you. Naturally, your brain's just like, we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to protect ourselves. Then we're not going to put

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<v Speaker 2>ourselves out there. We're not gonna you know, socialize and

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<v Speaker 2>talk about this and social company. But the problem with

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<v Speaker 2>that is it increases isolation. You feel all the extra

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<v Speaker 2>pressure of not having anybody else to explore with and

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<v Speaker 2>to feel seen by. And we know again physiologically loneliness,

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<v Speaker 2>isolation and massive stresses, so it diminishes your physiological buffer

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<v Speaker 2>against the effects of stress. So it's all around just

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<v Speaker 2>a terrible idea, but it's really understandable why why our

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<v Speaker 2>brain pushes us in that direction. So one of the

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<v Speaker 2>things that I suggest and work on a lot with

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<v Speaker 2>people at the outset of therapy, and we often have

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<v Speaker 2>to build up because that sense of being rejected is

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<v Speaker 2>really strong, so it's often not very easy for people

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<v Speaker 2>to do this off the bat. But essentially what we're

0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:53.720
<v Speaker 2>working up to is, let's try and assess and find

0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.320
<v Speaker 2>the people that will feel socially safe for you to

0:13:57.559 --> 0:13:59.720
<v Speaker 2>be yourself with or share a bit more about what's

0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:04.640
<v Speaker 2>going on with to get information from, and that will

0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.400
<v Speaker 2>look different for different people. Once we've identified those people,

0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:10.480
<v Speaker 2>let's just test it out a little bit. So that

0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:13.320
<v Speaker 2>might be going to a SCHOK group meeting and just

0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:15.880
<v Speaker 2>listening to begin with. Then maybe the next time you

0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:19.480
<v Speaker 2>go and you share a little Maybe that's like sharing

0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:21.880
<v Speaker 2>something with your partner who you do think you can trust,

0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:24.000
<v Speaker 2>but you're worried because you know other people have said

0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.360
<v Speaker 2>whatever and then you finally share one element of it

0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:31.000
<v Speaker 2>after you know checking out that that will be okay

0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:32.800
<v Speaker 2>and it feels like it's safe enough thing to do.

0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.880
<v Speaker 2>So you're just gradually building up. And what I will

0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.320
<v Speaker 2>acknowledge is not everybody's going to be a socially safe

0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.840
<v Speaker 2>person to explore these things with. That's just that's.

0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you have to, Yeah, you have to be selective,

0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:50.200
<v Speaker 1>Yes you do. Yeah, it's really important. You know, you

0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.600
<v Speaker 1>have an activity for replenishing compassion because you talk about

0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.200
<v Speaker 1>in the midst of our pain, sometimes our compassion for

0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:02.240
<v Speaker 1>others often wanes, and it really does make sense that

0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:04.680
<v Speaker 1>physical and emotional pain takes up a lot of space

0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:09.360
<v Speaker 1>in our minds and then fills our days, and it's

0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.880
<v Speaker 1>important to sort of come back to a place of

0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:15.200
<v Speaker 1>compassion in order to connect with other people in order

0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:17.320
<v Speaker 1>to also lessen our own pain.

0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:23.640
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, absolutely, I mean what is that activity? There's

0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:27.560
<v Speaker 2>lots of different ways that we can cultivate compassion, but

0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:32.200
<v Speaker 2>one that I tend to find helps best is a

0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:40.960
<v Speaker 2>visualization practice. And it starts off with identifying these different

0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:47.840
<v Speaker 2>words associated with compassion so warm, gentle, solid, companionship, and

0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:52.520
<v Speaker 2>you elicit that sense that comes with these words and

0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.200
<v Speaker 2>you just see what your mind naturally clungres up. It

0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.840
<v Speaker 2>can be a person, it can be you, it can

0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.920
<v Speaker 2>be a mascot, it can be an animal, but something

0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:06.840
<v Speaker 2>that represents compassion. And then we go deeper into this

0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:11.640
<v Speaker 2>visualization exercise, so that we're exploring what's their tone of voice,

0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.720
<v Speaker 2>what's their posture, how are they relating to you? What

0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.080
<v Speaker 2>kinds of things would they say in difficult situations? And

0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.600
<v Speaker 2>when your brain has this mental imagery, it elicits that

0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:27.320
<v Speaker 2>emotion of compassion much easier, and it also does something else,

0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:30.280
<v Speaker 2>because we're not saying you be compassionate, was saying, let's

0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:34.720
<v Speaker 2>create something that embodies and represents compassion and access that.

0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.560
<v Speaker 2>And the more you access that, over time the two

0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.120
<v Speaker 2>could merge. You could access it quicker. But to begin

0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.800
<v Speaker 2>with it can be really, really difficult because there can

0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:48.960
<v Speaker 2>be resistant parts of us. But as you practice the visualization,

0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.280
<v Speaker 2>really it's just about feeling that compassion, and then as

0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:55.640
<v Speaker 2>you go on you can start to apply it two

0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.400
<v Speaker 2>different things where you need to direct it to yourself

0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:00.160
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes to other people as well.

0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:02.400
<v Speaker 1>Right, I feel like sometimes we get so caught up

0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:06.760
<v Speaker 1>in our own suffering that we stop realizing or recognizing

0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:12.119
<v Speaker 1>that we're all suffering in some way. And sometimes it

0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:15.160
<v Speaker 1>takes for me to look at the other person as

0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:19.360
<v Speaker 1>if they're a little child, you know, and see that

0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.960
<v Speaker 1>little person inside of them who's scared and just hoping

0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:27.640
<v Speaker 1>for connection and compassion, and it feels easier to give

0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:28.679
<v Speaker 1>in that moment.

0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.160
<v Speaker 2>I think that's a really great way of doing it. Well.

0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.000
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for your time today and for

0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:38.760
<v Speaker 1>sharing your work. Doctor Sula Wwyn Gazin's book is It's

0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:42.400
<v Speaker 1>All in Your Body, a practical roadmap to healing through

0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:47.080
<v Speaker 1>mind body connection. It's available everywhere now. Thank you so

0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.520
<v Speaker 1>much for being with me. I really enjoyed our talk.

0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:52.399
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for having me. It was lovely.

0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:53.359
<v Speaker 1>All the best to you.

0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:55.280
<v Speaker 2>Thank you guys,