Speaker 1: You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Girl. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to I Choose Me. I am continuing my conversation
Speaker 1: with doctor Sula wind Gassen, author of the book It's
Speaker 1: All in Your Body, a practical roadmap to healing through
Speaker 1: mind body connection. And as I was preparing for this
Speaker 1: bonus episode, doctor Sula, my first thought was to focus
Speaker 1: on the action items. Can you share a little mini
Speaker 1: roadmap to healing for those with chronic pain or other sufferings.
Speaker 1: You know in your book you say you can't skip
Speaker 1: to action. What do you explain why that's important to
Speaker 1: understand your body first before you jump into action.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, quite simply because if we don't understand how
Speaker 2: it's work, and we tend to get bogged down by
Speaker 2: these narratives of I'm causing it, it's my fault, and
Speaker 2: that pushes in directions that don't serve us. Either they
Speaker 2: elevate the pressure or they mean that we act super
Speaker 2: reactively to what's going on, and then you know, we
Speaker 2: get stuck in what I call these psycho biological cycles
Speaker 2: where you know, we're responding to our body in this
Speaker 2: in particular ways and that feeds then into our biology
Speaker 2: and then we get stuck. So when we understand the
Speaker 2: physiology and how that meets our psychological experience and our
Speaker 2: social experience, it paves the way for taking the pressure
Speaker 2: off and then really working with what's going on for you.
Speaker 2: So that is really fundamental from like the science point
Speaker 2: of view, and then, as we were talking about in
Speaker 2: the episode, the interceptive awareness point of view, really getting
Speaker 2: to know your body inside out, recognizing its whispers so
Speaker 2: you don't have to hear its screams is what I
Speaker 2: always say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, get to it before. That's a lot harder to manage,
Speaker 1: it is it really is. It sounds like once you've
Speaker 1: been told your physical or emotional pain is in your
Speaker 1: head by someone you should trust, it's very hard to
Speaker 1: unwind that sort of gas lighting. Yes, can you help
Speaker 1: us sort of find that doctor for the first time?
Speaker 1: What kind of questions should we ask when we're first
Speaker 1: meeting a new doctor and are there red flags to
Speaker 1: avoid and to know that maybe that's not the doctor
Speaker 1: for us?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the very first thing is to be really clear
Speaker 2: on what you want from the outcome of the appointment,
Speaker 2: so you know, if it's particular answers, if it's particular
Speaker 2: information if it's a particular treatment pathway, really really helps
Speaker 2: to write down this is what I want from it,
Speaker 2: this is what I want clarified. You know that these
Speaker 2: would be the ideal next steps, and then when you're
Speaker 2: speaking with your doctor sharing that the outset, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm coming for this appointment because of this, and these
Speaker 2: are the things that I'm hoping to get out of it.
Speaker 2: And I guess the red flags are if you feel
Speaker 2: like they're talking over you, if they feel like if
Speaker 2: you feel like they're not listening to you, if you
Speaker 2: feel like they are disregarding what you're saying you want
Speaker 2: without giving you adequate explanation. This is not collaborative care.
Speaker 2: And if you've been dismissed before, it's only going to
Speaker 2: cause more. I mean, it's only going to be difficult anyway,
Speaker 2: regardless if you've been dismissed before. But if you have
Speaker 2: been before, then it's only going to add to that
Speaker 2: kind of feeling unsafe in those appointments. So feel free
Speaker 2: to look for another provider. I know it's different in
Speaker 2: the US to that it's quite in the UK it's
Speaker 2: kind of get what you can get. But I think
Speaker 2: even in the UN we can ask for a different
Speaker 2: doctor in a different way.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times people feel guilty about
Speaker 1: leaving their doctor even though they're feeling underserved by them.
Speaker 1: I've been in that position, and I've also I also
Speaker 1: really agree with what you said about write it down,
Speaker 1: make a list, because it's happened to me so many times,
Speaker 1: whether it is in therapy or a doctor's appointment where
Speaker 1: I'll be racing to get there and I've got a
Speaker 1: lot of things going on and they'll say, okay, so
Speaker 1: what are you here for today and what do you
Speaker 1: want to know? And I'll say, I don't know, just
Speaker 1: how am I doing? You know, like, it gets really general,
Speaker 1: and then you're not going to get as much as
Speaker 1: you need to out of that appointment.
Speaker 2: And when you're feeling stressed or vulnerable, even if you
Speaker 2: knew exactly what you were going to be saying before
Speaker 2: you went there, it can just leave your mind. You
Speaker 2: know that, that's a very real kind of physiological process
Speaker 2: that happens. Your brain gets blocked. So if the appointment
Speaker 2: feels particularly high stakes as well, that's why it needs
Speaker 2: to happen. So do help yourself out by having it
Speaker 2: written down.
Speaker 1: I think so many times, do we feel rushed in
Speaker 1: the appointments? Yeah, and then that causes you to think, oh, no,
Speaker 1: I'm being rushed, and then you just forget what you
Speaker 1: needed to know in the first place. Your book talks
Speaker 1: so much about safety, and you say that our bodies
Speaker 1: are always looking for danger.
Speaker 2: What is it to you?
Speaker 1: What does it mean to feel safe? And what are
Speaker 1: some ways that we can help ourselves move toward feeling safe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really great question. We often think of
Speaker 2: safe as something that is absence of, like physical danger,
Speaker 2: right of being in harm's way, but safe is much
Speaker 2: more multi dimensional than that. So in the book, I
Speaker 2: talk about these core safety needs that we have beyond
Speaker 2: kind of basic physical safety from harm. There's social safety,
Speaker 2: so relational safety that we feel like we're going to
Speaker 2: be cared for and looked after. There's also feeling that
Speaker 2: we have some kind of sense of control, this feeling
Speaker 2: that we have value and a sense of meaning. And
Speaker 2: there's a couple more as well. So you can see
Speaker 2: that these safety needs are beyond just am I imminently
Speaker 2: going to get eaten or you know, evolutionarily but in
Speaker 2: the present day, like attacked or whatever it might be. Physically.
Speaker 2: It goes, you know, into our sense of worth and
Speaker 2: how we feel like we can show up in the
Speaker 2: world in a way that's meaningful to us. So our
Speaker 2: brain and nervous system and regulatory systems are constantly getting
Speaker 2: information about do we have access to that safety or
Speaker 2: do we not, which is why, you know, one of
Speaker 2: the things that comes up a lot in the people
Speaker 2: with the people that I work with is I feel like,
Speaker 2: if this gets any worse, then I'm not going to
Speaker 2: be able to do what I love. And then what,
Speaker 2: you know, life isn't worth anything if I can't whether
Speaker 2: it's work, or whether it's be a good mom or
Speaker 2: whether it's you know, whatever it might be. And that
Speaker 2: then keeps the brain super vigilant, keeps it looking out
Speaker 2: for signs that you're losing that function you're not going
Speaker 2: to be able to do that, the nervous systems on
Speaker 2: the lookout. And so what safety feels like can be
Speaker 2: different in different contexts, but all safety counts. So that
Speaker 2: and I think, you know, helping your body to experience
Speaker 2: the spectrum of safety. How does it feel to know
Speaker 2: that you're not going to have to be accosted by
Speaker 2: someone unpleasant? Now? That you're sat in your living room
Speaker 2: just even kind of taking a moment to feel like that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you might feel unsafe in other ways, but we can
Speaker 2: still encode what it feels like to be safe in
Speaker 2: that respect. How does it feel like to feel valued
Speaker 2: by your partner who's just paid your compliment or something
Speaker 2: like that. So these mini moments of safety, they don't
Speaker 2: necessarily counterfract all of the different types of threat and
Speaker 2: stresses that you've got, but they still give your body
Speaker 2: some kind of calibration.
Speaker 1: It makes sense, definitely so important. What are some core
Speaker 1: skills that we need to have when it comes to
Speaker 1: processing our emotions for better physical and emotional wellbeing.
Speaker 2: One is something called metacognitive awareness. So that is something
Speaker 2: that we can build as a skill, and that means
Speaker 2: to be able to observe our mental experiences, whether that's
Speaker 2: thoughts or our emotions, which I would argue kind of
Speaker 2: body experiences, but you know, a lot of us think
Speaker 2: of them as mental experiences where we can see that
Speaker 2: sperience and observe it, and we're not you know, in
Speaker 2: amongst it. So an analogy for this is you're watching
Speaker 2: the train from a bridge and the train's going past,
Speaker 2: and you know that's your your thought processes, and you're
Speaker 2: noticing where your attention's going. When you've got metic cognitive awareness,
Speaker 2: you can be on that bridge orbit you'll jump back
Speaker 2: on the train at some point, but then you can
Speaker 2: get yourself out again. Whereas when we lack that, we're
Speaker 2: just on the train. We're just going with this full
Speaker 2: train of thoughts and there's no separation. When we don't
Speaker 2: have so much metic cognitive awareness, we're so identified with
Speaker 2: what our brain comes up with that it's it's a
Speaker 2: much more vulnerable place. When you develop this ability to
Speaker 2: see these mental events arise and have some separation, you
Speaker 2: you have the opportunity to evaluate and interrupt these default
Speaker 2: kind of brain shot pits. Right.
Speaker 1: I talk about that sometimes about how important it is
Speaker 1: to not believe every stupid thing in your mind tells
Speaker 1: you absolutely because they can. It can carry you off
Speaker 1: in really unhealthy directions.
Speaker 2: It really does.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like checking in to see, you know, what's
Speaker 1: really going on right now instead of letting your mind
Speaker 1: just take control because it likes to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's trying to save you. You know, it
Speaker 2: does feel sometimes like it's being vindictive. It's really not right.
Speaker 1: But there's talk about like the mind but like your
Speaker 1: fight or flight, and like our minds are designed to
Speaker 1: keep us away from danger. So everything feels like a danger,
Speaker 1: you know, it's during your day here and there, but
Speaker 1: we have to kind of override that or step back
Speaker 1: and assess, like, am I really in danger right now?
Speaker 2: Have you heard of that saying that the mind is
Speaker 2: like teeslon for the good stuff just slips right off,
Speaker 2: but it's like balcro for the for the bad stuff,
Speaker 2: and it will just stick on.
Speaker 1: It's so true. Yeah, we need to get a smoother pan.
Speaker 1: We know our scratchy devlon. What do you? You have
Speaker 1: a roadmap to healing, right, and it offers a lot
Speaker 1: of ways to help others along their journey, because sometimes
Speaker 1: I have a friend who has chronic pain, and I
Speaker 1: know that that can feel so isolating from the people
Speaker 1: in her life. But you talk about how important it
Speaker 1: is to discuss your own healing with others along the
Speaker 1: way and not try to do everything on our own.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really hard, you know, going back to that
Speaker 2: experience of being told it's all in your head. One
Speaker 2: of the effects of that is you feel like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: it's all on me. Then I have to figure this
Speaker 2: out on my own. I'm not being taken seriously. If
Speaker 2: I don't take charge, no one else will. And then that,
Speaker 2: you know, lends itself to more isolation. I just need
Speaker 2: to get my head down and work out the ways
Speaker 2: that this is going to work for me. And you know,
Speaker 2: that generalizes really quick, from the doctor that dismissed you
Speaker 2: to you know, a mother in law that said not
Speaker 2: very nice things, or you know a father in law
Speaker 2: who doesn't quite get it, or your own parents whoever.
Speaker 2: You know, these comments catch on quick, and then you
Speaker 2: feel like, well, they said it, they think that, so
Speaker 2: everybody else will. So I'm not going to and because
Speaker 2: it feels so horrible to be in that situation of
Speaker 2: really suffering and have people just not get it and
Speaker 2: maybe also say quite unhelpful things to you or even
Speaker 2: harsh things to you. Naturally, your brain's just like, we're
Speaker 2: going to protect ourselves. Then we're not going to put
Speaker 2: ourselves out there. We're not gonna you know, socialize and
Speaker 2: talk about this and social company. But the problem with
Speaker 2: that is it increases isolation. You feel all the extra
Speaker 2: pressure of not having anybody else to explore with and
Speaker 2: to feel seen by. And we know again physiologically loneliness,
Speaker 2: isolation and massive stresses, so it diminishes your physiological buffer
Speaker 2: against the effects of stress. So it's all around just
Speaker 2: a terrible idea, but it's really understandable why why our
Speaker 2: brain pushes us in that direction. So one of the
Speaker 2: things that I suggest and work on a lot with
Speaker 2: people at the outset of therapy, and we often have
Speaker 2: to build up because that sense of being rejected is
Speaker 2: really strong, so it's often not very easy for people
Speaker 2: to do this off the bat. But essentially what we're
Speaker 2: working up to is, let's try and assess and find
Speaker 2: the people that will feel socially safe for you to
Speaker 2: be yourself with or share a bit more about what's
Speaker 2: going on with to get information from, and that will
Speaker 2: look different for different people. Once we've identified those people,
Speaker 2: let's just test it out a little bit. So that
Speaker 2: might be going to a SCHOK group meeting and just
Speaker 2: listening to begin with. Then maybe the next time you
Speaker 2: go and you share a little Maybe that's like sharing
Speaker 2: something with your partner who you do think you can trust,
Speaker 2: but you're worried because you know other people have said
Speaker 2: whatever and then you finally share one element of it
Speaker 2: after you know checking out that that will be okay
Speaker 2: and it feels like it's safe enough thing to do.
Speaker 2: So you're just gradually building up. And what I will
Speaker 2: acknowledge is not everybody's going to be a socially safe
Speaker 2: person to explore these things with. That's just that's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to, Yeah, you have to be selective,
Speaker 1: Yes you do. Yeah, it's really important. You know, you
Speaker 1: have an activity for replenishing compassion because you talk about
Speaker 1: in the midst of our pain, sometimes our compassion for
Speaker 1: others often wanes, and it really does make sense that
Speaker 1: physical and emotional pain takes up a lot of space
Speaker 1: in our minds and then fills our days, and it's
Speaker 1: important to sort of come back to a place of
Speaker 1: compassion in order to connect with other people in order
Speaker 1: to also lessen our own pain.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely, I mean what is that activity? There's
Speaker 2: lots of different ways that we can cultivate compassion, but
Speaker 2: one that I tend to find helps best is a
Speaker 2: visualization practice. And it starts off with identifying these different
Speaker 2: words associated with compassion so warm, gentle, solid, companionship, and
Speaker 2: you elicit that sense that comes with these words and
Speaker 2: you just see what your mind naturally clungres up. It
Speaker 2: can be a person, it can be you, it can
Speaker 2: be a mascot, it can be an animal, but something
Speaker 2: that represents compassion. And then we go deeper into this
Speaker 2: visualization exercise, so that we're exploring what's their tone of voice,
Speaker 2: what's their posture, how are they relating to you? What
Speaker 2: kinds of things would they say in difficult situations? And
Speaker 2: when your brain has this mental imagery, it elicits that
Speaker 2: emotion of compassion much easier, and it also does something else,
Speaker 2: because we're not saying you be compassionate, was saying, let's
Speaker 2: create something that embodies and represents compassion and access that.
Speaker 2: And the more you access that, over time the two
Speaker 2: could merge. You could access it quicker. But to begin
Speaker 2: with it can be really, really difficult because there can
Speaker 2: be resistant parts of us. But as you practice the visualization,
Speaker 2: really it's just about feeling that compassion, and then as
Speaker 2: you go on you can start to apply it two
Speaker 2: different things where you need to direct it to yourself
Speaker 2: and sometimes to other people as well.
Speaker 1: Right, I feel like sometimes we get so caught up
Speaker 1: in our own suffering that we stop realizing or recognizing
Speaker 1: that we're all suffering in some way. And sometimes it
Speaker 1: takes for me to look at the other person as
Speaker 1: if they're a little child, you know, and see that
Speaker 1: little person inside of them who's scared and just hoping
Speaker 1: for connection and compassion, and it feels easier to give
Speaker 1: in that moment.
Speaker 2: I think that's a really great way of doing it. Well.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time today and for
Speaker 1: sharing your work. Doctor Sula Wwyn Gazin's book is It's
Speaker 1: All in Your Body, a practical roadmap to healing through
Speaker 1: mind body connection. It's available everywhere now. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for being with me. I really enjoyed our talk.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It was lovely.
Speaker 1: All the best to you.
Speaker 2: Thank you guys,