Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, thanks for coming back and coming along this
Speaker 1: journey with me. Like I mentioned in the previous episodes,
Speaker 1: I'm in the middle of a divorce. The end of
Speaker 1: my marriage played out on reality TV, which really did
Speaker 1: add an extra layer that's already difficult and a painful process.
Speaker 1: As I found myself deciding to end my marriage, I
Speaker 1: realized that I really didn't have a clue about the
Speaker 1: divorce process. So I'm super excited for our guest today
Speaker 1: because I have so many questions and I'm sure this
Speaker 1: conversation will resonate with many of you. Welcome family law
Speaker 1: attorney Dennis Bentrano, who also hosts his own podcast called
Speaker 1: The DRV Law Show Podcast.
Speaker 2: Hi Dennis, Hey Michelle, how are you good to meet you?
Speaker 2: Good to meet you.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited and I've been watching you for years.
Speaker 1: I love I think you're so insightful and everything I've
Speaker 1: seen on social media is incredible.
Speaker 2: You're very knowledgeable in what you do.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I'm glad to be on the show.
Speaker 3: It'll be a good opportunity for us to chat about
Speaker 3: the process.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, so I kind of want to start from the
Speaker 1: very beginning. You know, most people when they get married,
Speaker 1: they don't plan on getting divorced. So what is that
Speaker 1: first thing someone should do when they start contemplating leaving
Speaker 1: their spouse.
Speaker 3: I always tell people when you utter those words for
Speaker 3: the first time, I want a divorce, or threaten the divorce,
Speaker 3: or you're having an argument back and forth and that
Speaker 3: thought even crosses your mind, that's the point at which
Speaker 3: you really need to, you know, step back and I
Speaker 3: think be really thoughtful about the decision, because clearly it's
Speaker 3: something you're contemplating and it's a huge decision to make.
Speaker 3: Not that I'm discouraging people from doing it, but really
Speaker 3: be thoughtful about, like making that ultimate decision. And once
Speaker 3: you know that that's a direction you need to go
Speaker 3: in in your life to reach that next phase of
Speaker 3: your life or to turn that proverbial page, then it's
Speaker 3: time to start surrounding yourself with a group of people
Speaker 3: who are really just going to be your support team.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And for myself, you know, I did have friends
Speaker 1: that were in the divorce process, so it was helpful
Speaker 1: for me. They recommended attorneys, But I feel like if
Speaker 1: you don't have friends who are in the same boat
Speaker 1: as you, there's just so much there's just so much
Speaker 1: information out there, Like what do you look for when
Speaker 1: you're trying to find the right divorce attorney.
Speaker 3: That's a hard one. I think choosing the right lawyer
Speaker 3: can be one of the most difficult decisions you'll make,
Speaker 3: especially right out of the gate. But I think, look,
Speaker 3: there's a couple of tips that I would have in
Speaker 3: that regard. I think, certainly read reviews, Certainly consume as
Speaker 3: much information as you can that's out there, because right
Speaker 3: now we're at a very unique point in time in
Speaker 3: that there's so much free information out there about navigating
Speaker 3: the process. So start consuming that free information that's out there.
Speaker 3: Read some reviews, take a look at some websites, and
Speaker 3: then just go in and meet with people. I will
Speaker 3: tell you the best divorce lawyers are also really good people,
Speaker 3: and they tend to exude a level of confidence about
Speaker 3: their craft. And you would be surprised how insightful a layperson,
Speaker 3: somebody goes no legal training at all, can be about
Speaker 3: choosing the right lawyer if they take their time and
Speaker 3: they're thoughtful about it. When you go into a lawyer's office,
Speaker 3: you know, nine times out of ten you're gonna know
Speaker 3: you're gonna walk in the office. It's gonna look organized,
Speaker 3: it's gonna look like a well put together operation. And
Speaker 3: then when you meet with that lawyer, you know they're
Speaker 3: gonna sit down and they're gonna talk to you.
Speaker 4: The good lawyers.
Speaker 3: Are gonna make you feel like you're in the right place,
Speaker 3: and you'd be surprised. Trust your gut, you'll know.
Speaker 2: I feel the same way.
Speaker 1: I interviewed a couple lawyers and I just, you know,
Speaker 1: somebody who understood me, and I connected with them, and
Speaker 1: I just felt like they would really push for me.
Speaker 1: That's who I ended up going with.
Speaker 3: Here's an important piece about that, Michelle.
Speaker 4: Think about this.
Speaker 3: You interviewed a few lawyers. That's a really important tip
Speaker 3: right there. Make sure you don't go into a lawyer's
Speaker 3: office like, oh, I'm gonna find this lawyer, this one
Speaker 3: looks good, I'm gonna choose this one today. Don't go
Speaker 3: into it in that way. Interview a few lawyers and
Speaker 3: see where you feel comfortable.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I think I actually learned the wrong the
Speaker 1: hard way. I learned the hard way because initially we
Speaker 1: tried working with a mediator and we didn't ask any
Speaker 1: questions and we just kind of found one and hired her,
Speaker 1: and it just was not a good person for us
Speaker 1: to work with.
Speaker 3: I tell people when I do consultations, I say, after
Speaker 3: I do a consultation with a client, I'll say, I
Speaker 3: want you to go home and think about this, and
Speaker 3: I want you to call us back if you feel
Speaker 3: like we're a good fit for you. And that speaks
Speaker 3: volumes anybody that's trying to like, Oh, don't worry about it,
Speaker 3: I'll take care of it.
Speaker 4: I've got it all settled for you. I've got y'all
Speaker 4: to get y'all taken care of.
Speaker 3: Be cautious about those sort of approaches and those types
Speaker 3: of personalities in either divorce mediation or in divorce law.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 1: And so I didn't know anything about a mediator, And
Speaker 1: so what do you know, if somebody can't afford an attorney,
Speaker 1: what do you recommend.
Speaker 3: I wholeheartedly believe in the divorce mediation process.
Speaker 4: I really do.
Speaker 3: I think it's something that should work for most couples,
Speaker 3: not all most, And I'll put a little asterisk next
Speaker 3: to that, it's not you know, mediation can take on
Speaker 3: multiple different forms, right. It can be two parties working
Speaker 3: with a mediator, It can be two parties with their
Speaker 3: own lawyers working with a mediator, or it can also
Speaker 3: be the lawyers taking a large role and really being
Speaker 3: involved in representing their clients in the context of the
Speaker 3: mediation process. I mean, look, it's going to vary from
Speaker 3: state to state and from you know, county to county
Speaker 3: what the rules are. But I will say, generally speaking,
Speaker 3: going into the divorce process, like I need to find
Speaker 3: something that's fair in the form of an amicable resolution
Speaker 3: that will get me to the other side. If that's
Speaker 3: the mentality of both parties, mediation can work.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: And then you just need to figure out which which
Speaker 3: you know, system, which which type of mediation works best
Speaker 3: for you. I always suggest, like, look, especially if it's
Speaker 3: kids and there's a lot of complexities, and it's a
Speaker 3: long term marriage and there's high assets, you know, you
Speaker 3: probably best off each having your own lawyer and then
Speaker 3: trying to work with a mediator on the things that
Speaker 3: would be too costly or wasteful in terms of legal
Speaker 3: fees having the lawyers go back and forth and back
Speaker 3: and forth and back and forth.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that. So you could have both an
Speaker 2: attorney and a mediator.
Speaker 3: You can and the situations that we typically do. So
Speaker 3: we have two certified divorce mediators here, I'm one of them.
Speaker 3: We have multiple divorce attorneys, so we deal with every
Speaker 3: type of scenario in terms of in the context of mediation.
Speaker 3: We have situations where we're just the lawyers just sitting
Speaker 3: on the sidelines, advising along the way, giving legal advice,
Speaker 3: making sure that the agreement that you ultimately reached in
Speaker 3: your case is fair to you, and making sure whichever
Speaker 3: whatever written agreement you ultimately arrive at is correctly properly
Speaker 3: drafted to ensure that it protects your interests.
Speaker 4: We do that.
Speaker 3: We've also been the mediator where there's lawyers. Each party
Speaker 3: has their own lawyer and we're the mediator in the middle.
Speaker 3: So I do think that tends to be the more
Speaker 3: thorough approach. It is a little bit more costly, but
Speaker 3: I do think it's worth it. It's, like I said,
Speaker 3: complexities in your case where you feel like it's very
Speaker 3: important to have a lawyer representing your interests, and yet
Speaker 3: you really want to try to, you know, just get
Speaker 3: a fair resolution and reach an agreement together.
Speaker 1: I know it's a really broad question, but like I
Speaker 1: had no idea going into a divorce, like, what can
Speaker 1: the timeline be like realistically?
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it's funny I get this question
Speaker 3: all the time and I usually tell people my fastest,
Speaker 3: my quickest divorce that we've ever completed here was sixty
Speaker 3: days start to finish. So that's from the date they
Speaker 3: came into the office and sign a retainer agreement until
Speaker 3: the date we had a judgment of divorce in hand.
Speaker 3: So but that's like hyper speed. And that was a
Speaker 3: situation where it's straightforward, limited assets, not a lot of
Speaker 3: complexities with kids, and the parties came in and they said, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, we've reached an agreement. We really just want
Speaker 3: you guys to draft it up for us. And we
Speaker 3: did that and we got it done pretty quickly. But
Speaker 3: I have also seen those cases where and again these
Speaker 3: are rare.
Speaker 4: But you do have them.
Speaker 3: A judge, you know, you change judges in your case
Speaker 3: because the end of their term comes up, lawyer dies
Speaker 3: or they change lawyers. And those cases are cases that
Speaker 3: have pended for years, you know. In addition to obviously
Speaker 3: there's motions back and forth and people are arguing about
Speaker 3: the you know, the silliest things. So I think with divorces.
Speaker 3: It's one of those things where it can be as
Speaker 3: short as as possible, say sixty days, it can also
Speaker 3: be years. And that's why, like I said, I think
Speaker 3: it's very important when you go into the process that
Speaker 3: you understand it is a humongous life change for both parties.
Speaker 3: It can be such a complex not just from a
Speaker 3: legal standpoint, but also from a mental and emotional standpoint.
Speaker 3: Process to go through that you really need to you know,
Speaker 3: get organized, understand the you know, and approach it in
Speaker 3: stepwise fashion. Like, Hey, for the mental and emotional I
Speaker 3: need to get a support team with me. I need
Speaker 3: to have friends. I need to have a good lawyer.
Speaker 3: I need to have maybe a counselor with me. Maybe
Speaker 3: I need a divorce coach. You know, get prepared, get
Speaker 3: a list of the things you need to do to start,
Speaker 3: you know, a to do list, and then you know,
Speaker 3: go down through the process.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I can say, even for my mental health,
Speaker 1: like it's very taxing to constantly get emails and try
Speaker 1: to find information and don't like I can't even imagine
Speaker 1: not having a lawyer or some guidance.
Speaker 4: It's a tough process.
Speaker 3: And again I think for us as the lawyers. I
Speaker 3: want to be your legal expert. Obviously, I'm so familiar
Speaker 3: with every facet of the divorce process in that I've
Speaker 3: done it for twenty five years, from everything for the
Speaker 3: most simple divorce to the most complex, you know, acrimonious,
Speaker 3: multimillion dollar construction company divorce. But I want to be
Speaker 3: your lawyer. I don't want to be your counselor, and
Speaker 3: I can't be your friend. But I want to tell you, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, get get your support team together, do the
Speaker 3: things you need to do to get your emotions under control,
Speaker 3: and make sure you're okay mentally right, to really be
Speaker 3: patient to get the right result throughout your case. And
Speaker 3: then I'm going to help you get the fair result.
Speaker 1: And something I didn't know, Like I've always heard the
Speaker 1: term before, but it's never really discussed, you know, prenups.
Speaker 1: And recently I even learned about post once you're married.
Speaker 1: Once you're married, that can be very helpful. I wish
Speaker 1: I had more information about that. And it's like you
Speaker 1: kind of get scared, like you're getting married to somebody.
Speaker 1: The last thing you're thinking about is like, hey, let's
Speaker 1: do a prenup, right, But what do you think about prenups.
Speaker 3: And listen, I think prenups in a lot of ways
Speaker 3: get a bad rap. I mean, if you watch the
Speaker 3: content that I put out there, I've spent twenty five
Speaker 3: years handling divorce cases. The best way for me to
Speaker 3: help people is take that twenty five years of experience
Speaker 3: for people and work backwards.
Speaker 4: Okay, what could we have.
Speaker 3: Done to help us either through the process or to
Speaker 3: help us land in a better relationship or even keep
Speaker 3: that relationship intact? And I think, I think you know
Speaker 3: prenups is one of the things, and it's not for
Speaker 3: the reasons that you know. The reason why I'm pro
Speaker 3: pren up is not for the reasons people think I'm
Speaker 3: pro prene up as much for the fact that it's
Speaker 3: transparency at the outset as anything else. So think of
Speaker 3: it like this, Before you get married, don't you want
Speaker 3: to know what each of your finances is like? Don't
Speaker 3: you don't you want to know what each of you
Speaker 3: expects from the other should the worst happen? Because that
Speaker 3: speaks volumes about people's personality and the person that you're
Speaker 3: ultimately going to dedicate your life to. And I think
Speaker 3: you know I'm finding that young professionals in today's day
Speaker 3: and age are doing them more and more frequently. So yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm a big proponent of prenups, and just as much
Speaker 3: because it gives you transparency before you commit your life
Speaker 3: to someone as any other reason.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and talk to me about how people change during
Speaker 1: divorce and can even be unrecognizable.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it's funny because.
Speaker 2: You got people at their worst.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent out there worth. So a couple of
Speaker 3: a couple of things I'll share with you on that point.
Speaker 3: I think you know, I heard this saying the other day,
Speaker 3: and I think it's one hundred percent true. The person
Speaker 3: you divorce is not the person you married.
Speaker 4: They're a different person.
Speaker 3: And I think that's true not only because people you've
Speaker 3: all when they change over time, and they also can
Speaker 3: get nasty when the divorce process you know, comes on,
Speaker 3: But I think you know also because in those sorts
Speaker 3: of circumstances, you know, they they just change over time.
Speaker 4: So I think.
Speaker 3: It's just important when you're choosing someone to dedicate your
Speaker 3: life to. When we keep get going back to you know,
Speaker 3: like rewind, like, how do we start from a good
Speaker 3: point in these circumstances?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 3: And I always tell people like, if you're dating somebody,
Speaker 3: take a look at how they treat their worst enemy.
Speaker 3: Take a look at how they treat someone who makes
Speaker 3: them mad.
Speaker 4: How do they react.
Speaker 3: Are they the type of person that's going to chase
Speaker 3: down somebody in a road race situation and go to
Speaker 3: kick their windshield in? I mean, is this the sort
Speaker 3: of person because you want to prepare for what is
Speaker 3: this person going to be like in the worst possible circumstance.
Speaker 2: That is such great advice.
Speaker 1: That is amazing because I remember even with my ex,
Speaker 1: like I loved him so much, and I saw how
Speaker 1: he treated people when they did him wrong or he
Speaker 1: was unhappy and it wasn't good. You know, his first
Speaker 1: thought was like I want to sue you. I want
Speaker 1: to get revenge. And I never thought of it like
Speaker 1: I could one day be that person.
Speaker 3: You could one day be on the other end of it.
Speaker 3: So I'll give you a perfect, perfect example in my life.
Speaker 3: They're a handful of people's people in a circumstance that
Speaker 3: I dealt with recently who went far out of their
Speaker 3: way to do wrong to me and wrong to my kid. Right,
Speaker 3: But now I see them on a regular basis, and
Speaker 3: I say Am I gonna harbor animosity towards this person.
Speaker 3: Am I gonna dedicate energy to go after this person?
Speaker 3: Or am I gonna say, you know what, what's in
Speaker 3: the past is in the past. It's over and done with.
Speaker 3: If they're nice to me, I'm gonna be nice to them,
Speaker 3: you know. And that's why, like I always say, like,
Speaker 3: if there were ever a circumstance where I were to
Speaker 3: split from my wife and we've been happily married for years,
Speaker 3: I would never go out of my way to try
Speaker 3: to take something from her that was hers, or try
Speaker 3: to or try to just get back at her just
Speaker 3: for petty, you know, anger sort of things. And I
Speaker 3: think that speaks to people's character. It really does. So
Speaker 3: while you know, yes, it's true that people change over time,
Speaker 3: and yes, the divorce process does get people to an
Speaker 3: ugly place. And yes, you know, in the divorce process
Speaker 3: most people are what they've always say is like two
Speaker 3: or three degrees away from their normal base line personality
Speaker 3: because such a stressful event. Yes, all those things are true,
Speaker 3: but you know, good people are gonna be good people
Speaker 3: at their core.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that is I think one of the best
Speaker 1: advices I've ever heard because it happened to me, and
Speaker 1: you know in the beginning, you just don't think like that.
Speaker 1: And I feel like looking at it first, like worse
Speaker 1: comes to worse, what's going to happen?
Speaker 2: I think that's actually the best approach.
Speaker 1: How do you feel about people staying in marriages when
Speaker 1: they are unhappy and they have children?
Speaker 3: Well, I love that. Feel like you're modeling it. And
Speaker 3: I'll give you an example. Or watch the video on
Speaker 3: TikTok the other day, right, and they were talking about
Speaker 3: father's raising daughters, and they said, one of the best
Speaker 3: things you can do if you're a father raising a
Speaker 3: daughter is to treat her mother well because you are
Speaker 3: teaching her how she can expect to be treated by
Speaker 3: a partner when she gets older. What can she expect
Speaker 3: from her partner? Can she expect to be ridiculed? Can
Speaker 3: she expect to be you know, built up? Can you
Speaker 3: Can she expect somebody who's going to encourage her and
Speaker 3: motivate her and inspire her or can she expect that
Speaker 3: it's going to be the other direction? So I think
Speaker 3: if you're in a relationship where your partner and I
Speaker 3: think this especially goes for women and fathers and daughters,
Speaker 3: because particularly it's something close to my heart because I
Speaker 3: have a daughter right and I always am mindful of
Speaker 3: trying to treat her mother well. Just keep in mind,
Speaker 3: if you're in a relationship where your husband is treating
Speaker 3: you poorly and your daughter is watching that happen over
Speaker 3: and over again, you are modeling what she can believe
Speaker 3: she can expect from another from her partner as she
Speaker 3: gets older.
Speaker 4: So yes, I.
Speaker 3: Believe if you're in a situation where you know it's
Speaker 3: toxic or worse she had its abuse, or it's a
Speaker 3: situation where you're just gonna never get to the next step,
Speaker 3: the next page in your life leading to happiness in
Speaker 3: your life, you need to get out of it.
Speaker 1: I'm very happy you said that because my life coach
Speaker 1: actually told me that, and that's how I opened up
Speaker 1: my eyes because I never saw it that way. I
Speaker 1: didn't realize, like, my daughter is going to watch how
Speaker 1: a man treats me. And he had asked me like,
Speaker 1: would you want a man to treat your daughter that way?
Speaker 3: And listen, just let that statement lie for a little
Speaker 3: for a few minutes. I mean, listeners need to really
Speaker 3: take that to heart. Would you want a man to
Speaker 3: treat your daughter that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think I've gotten a lot of criticism that,
Speaker 1: you know, thinking the old school way, like no matter what,
Speaker 1: even if you're unhappy, you stay in the marriage. And
Speaker 1: I think it's the complete opposite.
Speaker 3: It is it is, And I think the toxicity for
Speaker 3: kids they soak up.
Speaker 4: Give another piece of information.
Speaker 3: A lot of the divorces that I get where women
Speaker 3: come forward and they say, hey, it's it's time for
Speaker 3: me to pull the trigger and say and you know
Speaker 3: what they say was the was the proverbial last straw.
Speaker 3: Their kid said something to them. Their kid said, Mom,
Speaker 3: it's it's time. Mom, it's you can't keep putting up
Speaker 3: with this. Kids know when they're and they're soaking it
Speaker 3: up like sponges. We think that, you know, oh they're
Speaker 3: they're in their bedroom and they're sleeping, or they're hiding
Speaker 3: around the court.
Speaker 4: Listen, my daughter will.
Speaker 1: They're always listening. That is something I learned. Even with
Speaker 1: my four year old daughter. It's like, oh, yeah, they
Speaker 1: have double ears.
Speaker 4: The ears, the walls have ears, for sure. Oh yeah,
Speaker 4: we've all had those. Middle of the night. My daughter
Speaker 4: will and she's like listen, she's like a cat.
Speaker 3: Burglar in the middle of the night, I'll she'll just
Speaker 3: her head will pop out from behind the date bed
Speaker 3: in our bedroom and there she is.
Speaker 4: I didn't even hear it come in.
Speaker 2: These kids are smart nowadays.
Speaker 4: They are.
Speaker 1: So as an expert in your field, can you spot
Speaker 1: a couple who's doomed before they even know it?
Speaker 3: Ooh yeah, yeah, I can spot the signs. I mean again,
Speaker 3: and I think, you know, I hate to keep coming
Speaker 3: back to this, but I think, especially for women, you know,
Speaker 3: one of the good one indicator for me is like,
Speaker 3: and I was thinking this as we were talking earlier, like,
Speaker 3: are you with a partner who would be comfortable when
Speaker 3: you're in the spotlight and there in the shadows?
Speaker 2: M good way?
Speaker 3: They always need to be like, well, I'm in the
Speaker 3: spotlight and you're back here?
Speaker 4: Is that the dynamic there?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 3: And there are times where and that was one of
Speaker 3: the other pieces from that video that I watched, like,
Speaker 3: you know, there are times where you know you need
Speaker 3: to be in the lead. They need to be building
Speaker 3: you up, they need to be supporting you, they need
Speaker 3: to be behind you, and then you do the same
Speaker 3: for them. But it can never be a circumstance where
Speaker 3: they're trying to take away from you. You know, I've
Speaker 3: seen those relationships like you're out of you know, cocktail
Speaker 3: or whatever, you know, you know, like Harry and Harry
Speaker 3: and Sally go to the party and like, you know, yeah,
Speaker 3: oh you know Sally never you know, she's she's not
Speaker 3: very smart, she doesn't know yo.
Speaker 4: She'd never lit, are you kidding?
Speaker 3: You hear stuff like that, Like if you talk to me,
Speaker 3: either in my wife's presence or outside of her presence,
Speaker 3: you will hear me talk about her like she's a
Speaker 3: fucking rock star. Excuse my friends, because she is. That's
Speaker 3: but right, I'm inspired by her, I'm motivated by her,
Speaker 3: and sometimes I look at her, I'm like, shit, I
Speaker 3: gotta I really got to pick up my game, man,
Speaker 3: this lady's killing it.
Speaker 4: And and you know, but that's what it's supposed to be.
Speaker 3: So when you see a dynamic where that's not present,
Speaker 3: or it's like, you know, I'm picking up this for
Speaker 3: him or I'm doing that for him, and like, yes,
Speaker 3: you're going to do it for each other. But if
Speaker 3: it's not a give and take, if it's not a
Speaker 3: two way street, then you got to question what you're doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that will always change throughout life. There's always
Speaker 1: going to be one person.
Speaker 2: That achieves more, does more, and it's the cycle of life.
Speaker 1: It's and so being there for one another, having that
Speaker 1: partnership is so important. And you know marriage is supposed
Speaker 1: to be many many years, so it's like there'll be
Speaker 1: ups and downs, but supporting on one another is crucial.
Speaker 4: It's one hundred percent. And it's funny.
Speaker 3: I was watching a video that I consume a lot
Speaker 3: of social media content, not just to get ideas for
Speaker 3: my own stuff, but but just because I love the area.
Speaker 3: But they said there's three things your spouse should be doing.
Speaker 3: They should either be motivating you and inspiring you to
Speaker 3: be the best you you can be and be like
Speaker 3: your cheerleader. Or they should be helping support you. Or
Speaker 3: they should be getting the hell out of your way.
Speaker 3: And I somewhat disagree with the last one. But they
Speaker 3: can't be bringing you down, they can't be holding you back. Now,
Speaker 3: I think it's it's cheerleader or motivating and supporting you.
Speaker 3: I don't even think it should be a neutral. I
Speaker 3: don't even think they should be sitting in a situation
Speaker 3: where they're just staying out of your way. I think
Speaker 3: they should be behind you the whole way, all of it,
Speaker 3: and it definitely should never be where they're holding you
Speaker 3: back or discouraging you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the end of my first season, I remember not
Speaker 1: to go too much into detail, but I was having
Speaker 1: brunch with my ex and my daughter and we had
Speaker 1: just finished a whole season, and out of nowhere, he
Speaker 1: just kind of kept saying, like, you should thank me
Speaker 1: that I put you on TV, and kind of bringing
Speaker 1: me down. And that was another moment that I opened
Speaker 1: up my eyes. I'm like, you're supposed to be my husband,
Speaker 1: my partner, thank you, Like this is something we did together,
Speaker 1: Like we should be celebrating together. You shouldn't try to
Speaker 1: pull me down. And I felt like that's what kept
Speaker 1: happening to me.
Speaker 2: It was always about him and never about.
Speaker 1: Me and diminishing me, and that is what broke me
Speaker 1: down at the very end, and I was like, what
Speaker 1: am I doing?
Speaker 2: My worth is like I don't deserve this.
Speaker 1: I don't deserve to have somebody treat and talk to
Speaker 1: me like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, one hundred percent.
Speaker 3: I mean they have to be a situation where they're
Speaker 3: giving you the credit that you deserve. And again we
Speaker 3: come back to the situation I was talking about earlier.
Speaker 3: You have to be in situations where they are comfortable
Speaker 3: giving you there and a lot of it, I think
Speaker 3: is ego.
Speaker 4: It's like, oh, it's got to be me. It's got
Speaker 4: to be me.
Speaker 3: It's always got it's always got to be all about me.
Speaker 3: That's fine. I love ego to the extent that it
Speaker 3: means that you're confident and that you're you're driven to
Speaker 3: get ahead. But you got to check that damn ego
Speaker 3: and support your partner, you know, and you got to
Speaker 3: let them know how much you appreciate them.
Speaker 4: It's funny.
Speaker 3: I was watching an interview the other day about from
Speaker 3: u Selena Gomez and Bennie Blanco and they were talking
Speaker 3: about their relations.
Speaker 2: I've seen that so many times.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, I love it so much. He supports
Speaker 4: her so much. I love it.
Speaker 1: And I think that's why people love it, because men
Speaker 1: don't support women as much as they should.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and that and let me tell you so
Speaker 3: here's so here's what's so funny about that. You know,
Speaker 3: you'll you'll hear from like the guys on my social media's.
Speaker 4: Oh that's a SIMP. That is a BS.
Speaker 3: That is the most confident man, the man who does
Speaker 3: not feel challenged by the fact that his woman is
Speaker 3: his wife.
Speaker 4: His partner is just amazing.
Speaker 3: As a matter of fact, they should feel complimented by
Speaker 3: it and support them in every way they can.
Speaker 4: That's why I love those videos, those clips of that.
Speaker 4: I love it so much.
Speaker 1: Me too, And you can see that she appreciates that
Speaker 1: and she loves him that much more because she has
Speaker 1: such a supportive partner.
Speaker 3: And he is not challenged one iota buy it, and
Speaker 3: neither is she. And that's what makes for the great partnership.
Speaker 3: And great partnerships are what they're really at its core,
Speaker 3: what great marriages are about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious for myself, Like, do you see now
Speaker 1: more women asking for the divorce and filing first?
Speaker 3: Yeah, the percentages have always been higher for women. It's
Speaker 3: roughly about sixty five or so percent filed by women.
Speaker 3: But I think, you know, there's good reason for that.
Speaker 3: But I think the funny part about it is people think,
Speaker 3: because of those statistics, and I think mainly men think
Speaker 3: because of those statistics that women are just like, oh uh,
Speaker 3: this guy doesn't work.
Speaker 4: I want a divorce.
Speaker 3: That is not the way it works.
Speaker 4: On average.
Speaker 3: Women spend years painstakingly, you know, trying to restore the
Speaker 3: merits or relationship and send signals and communicate and like
Speaker 3: and end up in a situation. And that's why when
Speaker 3: you get to the divorce process, many women have been like,
Speaker 3: you know, like like the situation we were talking about earlier,
Speaker 3: just like feeling like, you know, they did all these
Speaker 3: things and they get no credit and there's no support,
Speaker 3: and they're like mentally and emotionally, it's about getting past that,
Speaker 3: getting to that next level. That's why the mental and
Speaker 3: emotional peace is so important at the outset of the
Speaker 3: divorce situation, because you know, the ladies have really spent
Speaker 3: a long time pining over this decision, and it's one
Speaker 3: of the toughest decisions they have to make.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't imagine a woman just wakes up one
Speaker 1: day it's like, Okay, I want to file for divorce.
Speaker 2: No, of course not. It takes so long.
Speaker 3: It does, And I think women really internalize it in
Speaker 3: my experience that they feel a sense of shame, they
Speaker 3: feel a sense of failure, they feel a sense of
Speaker 3: like like it's like it's their fault in a way,
Speaker 3: and in as part of the process, you know, one
Speaker 3: of the most important things you could do is like
Speaker 3: unpack all of that. You don't get through all of
Speaker 3: that because clearly it's not your fault and manute and
Speaker 3: in many cases it's very small percentage your fault, if
Speaker 3: at all.
Speaker 1: So I did think it was my fault because I
Speaker 1: was the person who made the final decision. But now
Speaker 1: with therapy, I've learned that no, it's I just did
Speaker 1: the right thing, and I did the right thing for
Speaker 1: myself and for my daughter.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think the funny part about it is
Speaker 3: that usually the people on the other side of those
Speaker 3: circumstances will use every clever trick that they can to
Speaker 3: keep your self esteem, you know, and keep your motivation
Speaker 3: to get to the next level down right. They'll say, like,
Speaker 3: you know, perfect sample, which is like until what you
Speaker 3: were talking about earlier. They'll say like, well, you'll never
Speaker 3: find anybody who will love you as much as I do. Well,
Speaker 3: how does that devalue that person?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 3: Well, they're only you know, how could they possibly find
Speaker 3: somebody as great as this other person to love.
Speaker 4: Them like they love them?
Speaker 3: Well, no, they're worth that and so much more. And
Speaker 3: that's why again, like that Benny Blanco thing, like I
Speaker 3: tell her I love her every day and she gets
Speaker 3: tired of it, and I you know, explained to you know,
Speaker 3: talk to her about how great she is and where
Speaker 3: you know, as guys, we're not great at that.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: I think it takes effort, It takes work. But you know,
Speaker 3: for any guys that are listening, say, if you are
Speaker 3: with a great lady, go home and tell her today
Speaker 3: you're fucking awesome, man, Like I am so.
Speaker 2: Lucky to be And how easy is that?
Speaker 1: How easy is it to give an affirmation, to give
Speaker 1: a compliment, to just be like, hey, you're amazing.
Speaker 2: I think that's all women really want.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think I think just people in general
Speaker 3: want to feel appreciated, and I think especially for women,
Speaker 3: especially for the ones who are really killing it, who
Speaker 3: are doing it all, which which comprises a large majority
Speaker 3: of the women that we represent. They're doing everything, they're
Speaker 3: with the kids, they're with businesses, they're making the money,
Speaker 3: they're taking care of, doing all these things. And then like, well,
Speaker 3: you didn't do this for me, or you didn't You'll
Speaker 3: never find anybody else who are going to love you
Speaker 3: like I do im.
Speaker 4: I was like, whoa.
Speaker 2: Wait a second, Well show.
Speaker 4: You right right.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm looking in from the outside saying this,
Speaker 3: This lady's way out of your class, dude.
Speaker 2: A couple more things I wanted to ask.
Speaker 1: So I was having a dinner with my girlfriend who's
Speaker 1: also getting divorced, and so something she said to me
Speaker 1: that I had never even thought of. She was like,
Speaker 1: you know, when you're in the divorce and you're in
Speaker 1: a room or in the house with the ex, you know,
Speaker 1: an argument can get heated and you can start screaming.
Speaker 1: And she actually knows a lot of people who call
Speaker 1: nine one one or gets arrested, and it was kind
Speaker 1: of a joke, but she was like, no, this is
Speaker 1: actually very important because nobody talks. She's like, if I
Speaker 1: would have known, I wouldn't have dialed nine one one.
Speaker 1: But you're just in the heat of the moment, Like,
Speaker 1: what what do you suggest when you are in a
Speaker 1: room and you know you're just arguing and it just
Speaker 1: gets heated.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: I always try to counsel clients to keep things as
Speaker 3: vanilla as is possible. I think it starts from a
Speaker 3: situation where again the same. You have to remember that
Speaker 3: the same dynamic throughout that developed throughout your marriage. The
Speaker 3: other party, especially if it's a toxic relationship, is going
Speaker 3: to think post divorce, business as usual. I'm gonna talk
Speaker 3: to you the way I used to talk to you.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna treat you the way I used to treat you,
Speaker 3: and for many it's poorly And I think the shift
Speaker 3: is to realize you don't need to tolerate that. You
Speaker 3: don't need to listen to that. If they're gonna raise
Speaker 3: their voice, or they're gonna curse, or they're gonna do
Speaker 3: or they're gonna direct any communications towards you that have
Speaker 3: no useful, reasonable purpose, like talking about what the pickup
Speaker 3: and drop off is gonna be for the kids, or
Speaker 3: talking about how you're gonna you know, how you're gonna
Speaker 3: filew your taxes, walk out the door, goodbye. Absolutely, phone call,
Speaker 3: phone call, click. I don't need to tolerate that anymore.
Speaker 3: I'm not your whipping post. Okay, I'm not gonna be
Speaker 3: bullied and I don't need to listen to this garbage.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 3: Obviously you do that in consultation with your lawyer, because
Speaker 3: sometimes you want to be strategic about that because a
Speaker 3: lot of times they'll surreptitiously try to like draw you in. Well,
Speaker 3: I'm going to try to push their buttons until they
Speaker 3: get aggravated, and then I'm going to go to the
Speaker 3: judge and say, well, they wouldn't talk to me about
Speaker 3: the kids.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because would that affect the custody agreement or does
Speaker 1: that affect it?
Speaker 4: Can? It can?
Speaker 3: But I think it's it's important to draw that line.
Speaker 3: It's important to know that that raising the voice foul
Speaker 3: language any level of abuse. I mean certainly anything physical
Speaker 3: should does not and should not be tolerated. And I think,
Speaker 3: you know, I have to be cautious when we're in
Speaker 3: this space because if you're in a situation where there's
Speaker 3: been physical violence, or there's been any level of domestic
Speaker 3: violence in the past, absolutely one call the police. Your
Speaker 3: safety is the most important thing, and everything follows from that,
Speaker 3: your physical and then mental and emotional safety, physical safety,
Speaker 3: police right lawyer, prosecution, those sorts of things. You know,
Speaker 3: the hotline you can always reach out to if you
Speaker 3: need to find a way to get safely out of
Speaker 3: a domestic violence relationship. You can just google hashtag the hotline.
Speaker 4: But other than.
Speaker 3: Immediate safety safety plan police. If it's just verbal and
Speaker 3: there's no domestic violence, you don't have to tolerate it.
Speaker 1: And as easy as that sounds, that is so hard
Speaker 1: in the moment. It is you want to go that
Speaker 1: back and forth and prove your point, and you.
Speaker 4: Know do you do?
Speaker 3: But I think what is that doing to you? If
Speaker 3: you do that, it's eating you up. And that's why
Speaker 3: let's back up a little bit. I want you to
Speaker 3: unpack all of the proverbial shit you dealt with in
Speaker 3: that relationship throughout. Unpack that in a therapist's office and
Speaker 3: deal with it. Okay, I know, you know, and I
Speaker 3: think people don't appreciate how much there is to deal
Speaker 3: with prior to the divorce process. Because once you get
Speaker 3: your arms around that and work with your counselor your
Speaker 3: therapists to develop mechanisms to deal with this person on
Speaker 3: the other side of your situation, you will be in
Speaker 3: a healthy space to say, I'm going to take this.
Speaker 3: I don't need to prove any point to them, I
Speaker 3: don't need to answer to them in any way. There's
Speaker 3: no remnant of the broken relationship that I need to
Speaker 3: air my grievances with them.
Speaker 4: I'm done with them.
Speaker 3: The best thing you can do for yourself and to
Speaker 3: prove anything to them is to walk out the door.
Speaker 1: That's my philosophy now, and it took me some time
Speaker 1: to learn. I was like, I don't need to deal
Speaker 1: with this. I don't have to hear it.
Speaker 2: I have a lawyer email done one hundred percent, thank you.
Speaker 1: And then I want to ask two questions that I
Speaker 1: get asked often. I think I know the answers to this,
Speaker 1: but a lot of women don't. You know a lot
Speaker 1: of people have a lot of women have beautiful, big
Speaker 1: engagement rings and they're like, what do I do? Do
Speaker 1: I give it back to them? And I said that
Speaker 1: it's a gift. That's what I was told. Is that correct?
Speaker 4: It depends on your state. So let's put it this way.
Speaker 3: I'm a New York state divorce lawyer. So typically the
Speaker 3: engagement ring is a gift and it's you know, and
Speaker 3: it's dealt with in that way through the through the
Speaker 3: divorce process. But I think I would be cautious about
Speaker 3: it and talk with your lawyer about your state's laws,
Speaker 3: because remember, divorce laws will vary from state to state.
Speaker 1: Okay, and these are conversations you really need to have
Speaker 1: before you get married, like how can you get married
Speaker 1: to somebody spend the rest of your life with them,
Speaker 1: but don't know their financial situation?
Speaker 3: Let that lie for a little bit, because I'll tell
Speaker 3: you that is a piece of very valuable sound advice.
Speaker 3: And not just understand how important what you just said is.
Speaker 3: It's not just about the divorce process, but it's just
Speaker 3: as much about building a relationship that will last. It
Speaker 3: starts with transparency. Know how that person's going to react
Speaker 3: in the worst possible circumstance.
Speaker 4: Know how they make their money.
Speaker 3: Know what their debts are, Like, what are their assets
Speaker 3: if we were divorce, what do you expect from me? Well,
Speaker 3: I want you to be a stay at home mom,
Speaker 3: but I don't want to give you any assets if
Speaker 3: we divorce. We'll wait a second. If I'm helping you
Speaker 3: build all this money and then you want to just
Speaker 3: walk out the door that your so again, I think
Speaker 3: the prenup is a way, like you said, to have
Speaker 3: transparency from the outset.
Speaker 4: Know all of these things.
Speaker 1: Okay, And what is it called the post Once you're
Speaker 1: already married.
Speaker 3: There's a post nup. So in post nups, it's funny,
Speaker 3: there's a there so. So in New York State, we
Speaker 3: do divorce agreements, which is generally a written contract and
Speaker 3: agreement that provides for every possible issue that would come
Speaker 3: up in the context of your divorce case. You can
Speaker 3: do it prior to the marriage it's called a prenup.
Speaker 3: You can do it post the marriage, and during the marriage,
Speaker 3: which is called a post up. And then if you're
Speaker 3: doing it in anticipation of a divorce, it's typically called
Speaker 3: a separation agreement. And then in the context of your
Speaker 3: divorce case, the written contract that settles all the issues
Speaker 3: if you reach an amicable agreement between the two parties,
Speaker 3: is basically called a divorce settlement agreement. All four of
Speaker 3: these agreements need to meet the same standards under the
Speaker 3: New York State divorce law, very similar in sum and substance.
Speaker 3: So pren up, yes, transparency, do it early. Post up
Speaker 3: is a situation where if your marriage is on the
Speaker 3: rocks but you're trying to work on it, and you say, hey,
Speaker 3: we're going to jump in with both feet to counseling,
Speaker 3: but just to prepare in advance if the worst does happen.
Speaker 3: If this counseling fails and the relationship and we're unable
Speaker 3: to restore the marriage a relationship we want to while
Speaker 3: we're thinking clearly and while we're not at loggerheads with
Speaker 3: each other, you know, sort out what would happen in
Speaker 3: the event of a divorce, and in those sorts of
Speaker 3: circumstances you do the post numb.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the best time to do it.
Speaker 1: And I wish I was told and I knew about that,
Speaker 1: because I would have done it when I was first
Speaker 1: thinking about it, and that would have saved so much
Speaker 1: time and a headache. And I think it would just
Speaker 1: it would have made the process much easier. So I
Speaker 1: think it's important to know about that, even when you
Speaker 1: are married, you can still have a post.
Speaker 4: Not it is one hundred percent.
Speaker 3: And like I said, I think there are so many
Speaker 3: emotions and the average divorce case, there are so many
Speaker 3: emotions swirling in the context of a divorce case because
Speaker 3: think of it, every aspect of your life is going
Speaker 3: to change. And in addition to the fact that many
Speaker 3: people still harbor, you know, remaining remnants of the broken
Speaker 3: relationship that they need to that they've kind of feel
Speaker 3: like they need to get back at the other side on.
Speaker 3: And in addition to those things that are kind of
Speaker 3: swirling around, you also have a SITCHI and that where
Speaker 3: your entire life is being turned upside down. So in
Speaker 3: the context of that, we expect you, as divorce lawyers,
Speaker 3: like hey, think clearly and be reasonable and try to
Speaker 3: plan for you know, when we settle this divorce case,
Speaker 3: what your life is going to look like five or
Speaker 3: ten years from now. People are thinking like, I don't
Speaker 3: even know what I'm having for breakfast tomorrow. Well, I'm
Speaker 3: gonna be living six months from now. How how can
Speaker 3: I think clearly about that? So again, I think when
Speaker 3: you're outside of the divorce process, when there's not that pressure,
Speaker 3: do the post note just in case. It's the most
Speaker 3: cost effective thing you can do, and it will save
Speaker 3: you months, years, tens of thousands of dollars and a
Speaker 3: whole lot of aggravation and anxiety in the divorce process.
Speaker 2: What a life lesson. Well, thank you. I'm so happy.
Speaker 1: I hope this was very helpful for others because it
Speaker 1: is to me and I'm still learning even being in
Speaker 1: the middle of it, Like I learn every single day,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I wish I knew that before and
Speaker 1: I wish there were, you know, I saw little clips
Speaker 1: on tiktoks. I would see you all the time, and
Speaker 1: that little guidance here and there can make such a
Speaker 1: big difference.
Speaker 3: So thank you, Thank you so much, Michelle, and listen,
Speaker 3: I want to I want you to appreciate and understand
Speaker 3: how valuable what you're doing is, because people who are
Speaker 3: going through it right now what I tell them on
Speaker 3: a regular basis, consume as much free content as you
Speaker 3: can about the process and what happens.
Speaker 4: And it's a magical thing when people gain.
Speaker 3: So when you go into the divorce process, there's a
Speaker 3: whole bunch of unknowns, and the anxiety comes from the unknowns.
Speaker 3: As you go through it and share what you've dealt
Speaker 3: with and share your insights, you're making some of the
Speaker 3: knowns or the unknowns for people knowns, or at least
Speaker 3: they have an idea on what they can expect, and
Speaker 3: that information brings down their anxiety and gives them calm.
Speaker 3: And calm is what people need more than anything else when.
Speaker 4: They're going through the divorce process. So thank you for
Speaker 4: what you do. Keep doing it.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: And I've also never been anxious person, and it's the
Speaker 1: first time that. There are times I'm reviewing emails, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I have anxiety, Like anxiety is a real thing.
Speaker 4: And you can feel it in your chest.
Speaker 1: It's like yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, I'm starting to
Speaker 1: breathe better and good. I'm still in the middle of it,
Speaker 1: but hopefully one day that will be in the past
Speaker 1: and I can move to the future. And lastly, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, when people get divorced, what is that rate
Speaker 1: of redivorce? Because I still believe in marriage. I still
Speaker 1: want to get married in the future one day.
Speaker 4: I think.
Speaker 3: I think the one statistic we haven't come up with
Speaker 3: is what's the divorce rate for remarriage for people who
Speaker 3: take the time to heal, who take the time to
Speaker 3: unpack the baggage left.
Speaker 4: Over from their first marriage.
Speaker 3: I think we don't really have a reliable statistic on
Speaker 3: that yet, but I think ultimately someday we will. The
Speaker 3: second marriage rate is higher than the first marriage, right,
Speaker 3: and it goes up from there. So first marriage little
Speaker 3: over fifty percent, second marriage a little over sixty percent,
Speaker 3: third marriage like seventy something percent. It's and it's in
Speaker 3: large part because when people lead their first marriage 're
Speaker 3: going into a second or a third one to fill
Speaker 3: a void, and they shouldn't be trying to fill the
Speaker 3: void with another person. They should be trying to fill
Speaker 3: the void with their new sense of self. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: I think if you unpack everything from your first relationship,
Speaker 3: work on being the best you you can be, you'll
Speaker 3: be in a situation where that void is filled by
Speaker 3: a greater.
Speaker 4: You, and then you will attract the right partner.
Speaker 3: And those marriages, I think are the ones that are
Speaker 3: going to last.
Speaker 1: Perfectly said, all right, having to thank you, good to
Speaker 1: talk with you, Michelle, have a great take you too
Speaker 1: if they care. Bye.