1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 2: Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. 3 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 4 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: controlled by one man. 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 3: Well, he's a legitimate super genius. 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 4: I mean legitimate. He says. 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: He's always voted for Democrats, but this year it will 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: be different. 9 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 5: He'll vote Republican. 10 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 2: There is a reason the US government is so reliant 11 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 2: on him. Elon Musk is a scam artist and he's 12 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: done nothing. Anything he does, he's fascinating people. 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 4: Welcome to Elon, Inc. Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 14 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 4: It's Tuesday, September twenty fourth. I'm your host, David Papadopolis. 15 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 4: Now regular list ers might know that this show, like 16 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 4: Elon Musk himself, loves a feud, and this week has 17 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 4: been all about the feuds. Elon lost one battly in Brazil, 18 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 4: he seems to have started another one with the warlord 19 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 4: of Chechnya, and he even made a couple of enemies 20 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 4: in a battle over land rights. Yes, says Elon has 21 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 4: been rubbing elbows and yucking it up with his new pals, 22 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 4: Javier Milay and Georgia Maloney. In New York for the 23 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,839 Speaker 4: UN General Assembly. The conflicts have been coming in fast 24 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 4: from all directions. Dana Hall will join us to talk 25 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 4: about that Chechenan warlord Ramsen Kataroff and his beloved cyber truck, 26 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 4: and we'll get into those land rights bats. But before that, 27 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 4: we're going to start in Brazil, where Elon just caved 28 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 4: to Judge Aleishandri jumurais bringing an end to a high 29 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 4: profile battle that led to X being banned. There to 30 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 4: discuss this, Max Chapkin has joined me here in the studio. Hey, Max, Hey, 31 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 4: David and from salpowl Will were beaming. And Julia Leche, 32 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 4: who run are Emerging Markets coverage in Latin America. 33 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: Julia, welcome, Hey David, thanks for having me. 34 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 4: Okay, Julia. So, when we last visited the topic of 35 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 4: Musk versus the Sovereign Republic of Brazil, Musk was still 36 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 4: refusing to do the things at the Supreme Court wanted 37 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 4: there remove accounts spreading disinformation on X, a point a 38 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 4: representative in the country, and X was still banned. All 39 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 4: that change late last week. Walk us through what exactly happened. 40 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: So a little less than a month after Twitter went down, 41 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: Musk decided to back down. Indeed, so he named a 42 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: legal representative. He blocked the accounts that the judge had 43 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: ordered them too, and paid fines that had been incurring 44 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: for a while and that he had been refusing to pay. 45 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: Now at the beginning you said it was over right, 46 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: it's not quite yet. You cannot access Twitter here yet. 47 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: We tried a bit earlier. 48 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 4: So when you try to call up the app, it'll 49 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 4: get what do you get? What does it show? 50 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 2: It just keeps loading, keeps a. 51 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: Load and just looks, you know, no tweets, no nothing, 52 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: just you know, the little what is it called it the. 53 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 2: Beach Ball of doom. 54 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 4: It's the beach Ball of Doom. Okay, Max. So you 55 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 4: still can't access it as we speak. And that's been 56 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 4: the case, as you said, what for going over a 57 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 4: month now, right. 58 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was August thirty or thirty first 59 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: that it first went down. 60 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 4: Okay, So the better part essentially all of September, Musk 61 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 4: has said he's done these things, he's shut down these 62 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 4: accounts that the Supreme Court wanted to shut down, and 63 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 4: he's now got a legal representative in the country. But 64 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 4: for Gimo and ies I guess that's just not quite 65 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 4: enough yet, is that right? 66 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. So he gave the company until Friday 67 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: to file additional paperwork, which is essentially proof that he 68 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: hired legal representation, wants things to be notarized and you know, 69 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: just full proof that yes, this is the legal representative. 70 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: They can be held accountable. And he also asked the 71 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: regulatory bodies on NATHEL to ensure that they've paid all 72 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: the fines that they owe from previous rulings before he 73 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: allows it to before he'll decide. 74 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 4: It's like a million bucks, right, it's like three and 75 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 4: a half million dollars, okay, But basically this guy's not 76 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 4: messing around. I mean he's like, you may say these things, 77 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 4: all right, show me the money and show me bring 78 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 4: me your counsel. I want to speak with this person. 79 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 1: All the paperwork, all the bureaucracy, I want it, and 80 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: then all decide. 81 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 4: And X is a pretty big deal there in Brazil. Right, 82 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 4: as far as social media giants go, it's. 83 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: Pretty widely used. It's not like when it went down. 84 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: It was not the chaos of when what'sapp went down 85 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, also because of a court order that 86 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: was chaos, but this was weird. I think the latest 87 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: numbers that we have are about twenty million active users, 88 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: which is pretty hefty. It's not it doesn't compare to 89 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: What's app or YouTube, but it's still pretty widely used. 90 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: I think the survey one survey that we had was 91 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: about a third of smartphone users had it installed. 92 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 4: That is indeed a pretty big number. Nine Max. I mean, 93 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 4: here's the thing. We had the sense on this show 94 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 4: a few weeks ago, you and Kurt Wagner as well, 95 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 4: that as big a market as Brazil is for X 96 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 4: in some ways twenty million users and so on and 97 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 4: so forth, that ultimately, in terms of the nickels and 98 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 4: dimes that generated for the company, it wasn't enough for 99 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 4: Musk really to worry about it. And because the whole 100 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 4: thing had been come in in this pitched battle over 101 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 4: free speech with the Brazilian Supreme Court judge it and 102 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 4: he had kind of become a cause celeb, and so 103 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 4: it was a good fight to fight. But the way 104 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 4: he suddenly just absolutely caved, bang bang bang and acquiesced 105 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 4: everything Jim what Ies was asking for. I guess he 106 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 4: didn't need the money in the end, you know, there are. 107 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 2: Some memes are not worth the cost. 108 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 3: And you know, when you Elon Musk walked into the 109 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 3: Twitter headquarters with the sink, like I assume he had 110 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,799 Speaker 3: to send an intern to home depot. 111 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: That costs the interns. 112 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 3: Labor and the you know, one hundred and fifty bucks 113 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 3: for that sink, And maybe that was worth it. 114 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 2: But here we're talking. 115 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 3: About a bunch of costs and I think what probably 116 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 3: happened over the course of this month is that they 117 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 3: started to add up in his mind. So so yes, 118 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 3: it's true that revenue in terms of advertising revenue from 119 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 3: Brazil is not significant, but as Kurt pointed out when 120 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 3: we talked about this, as far as a number of users, 121 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 3: it's actually one of the bigger markets. And you know, 122 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 3: if we've learned anything over the last couple of years 123 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 3: of Elon Musk's ownership of Twitter, now x he doesn't 124 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 3: care that much about advertising revenue, but he really cares 125 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 3: about engagement. And if you just like pull out a 126 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 3: bunch of users like that is going to show up, 127 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 3: and then. 128 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 4: Why do you care about engagement without the revenue? I mean, ultimately, 129 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 4: at the end of the day. 130 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 2: He's building a new model. 131 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 3: David he is. He is charging people a subscription fee. 132 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 3: He's also interested in influence. So like advertising revenue, right, 133 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 3: it's it's been devalued in his mind. So but what 134 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 3: hasn't been devalued, I don't think is number of users. 135 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 3: He constantly is bragging about how many users are in 136 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 3: X and also. 137 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 4: From the style right, Well, I don't think it's just 138 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 4: about look at the size of my crowd. 139 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 3: It's not just about his ego though, I mean, part 140 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 3: of what makes this thing worth it in his mind, 141 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 3: I think is number one, like influence, which is about 142 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 3: number of users. And number two he is trying to 143 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 3: build a subscription model and having a lot of users, 144 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 3: you know, is the way to do that. 145 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 2: So those are things that I think hurt him. The 146 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: other thing is like. 147 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 3: There are a lot of like very active accounts in Brazil, 148 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 3: some of which Elon Musk you know follows and others 149 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 3: that are just like they're you know. One of the 150 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 3: funny things about this band was that you had like 151 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 3: random fan accounts, random meme accounts, just just these big 152 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 3: X accounts that happen to be run by Brazilians that 153 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 3: were went offline. 154 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 2: So I think that's one. 155 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 3: Thing and the last thing is like Brazil has ways 156 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 3: to hurt at Elon Musk outside of x You know, 157 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 3: we talked about the potential for freezing assets, you know, 158 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 3: for attacking his other businesses, Like you don't really want 159 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 3: to pick a fight with a large country if you 160 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 3: can help it. 161 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 2: And I think in that sense this was inevitable. 162 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. And I also believe it was inevitable because on 163 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 4: Brazil being a large country. This is a very important 164 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 4: point here. I mean, it seems to me that when 165 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 4: he got initially locked in this battle with them, he 166 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 4: some way, somehow convinced himself that Jimurai's in the Supreme 167 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 4: Court of Brazil were going to capitulate. That was never 168 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 4: going to happen. I mean, you should just call up 169 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 4: Brazil in a map. Okay is geographically a very very 170 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 4: large place, larger than the continental United States, and like 171 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 4: the US, it's it suffers a bit from big country itis. 172 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 4: It carries itself that way in international forms. And there 173 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 4: was no way in hell alischandri Jimurais was going to say, 174 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 4: you know what, Elon Musk, You're right, let me rever 175 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 4: all these orders I made, and I'm gonna let you 176 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 4: operate here in the country without striking down those accounts 177 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 4: and without having a legal representative here, that was a 178 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 4: losing hand, and perhaps he came to realize that. 179 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 3: It is also the problem of the precedent right. So 180 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 3: part of the part of the problem here with making 181 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 3: taking a stand in Brazil is that there are other countries, 182 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 3: countries with politics that Elon Musk might find even more objectionable, 183 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 3: that have also asked X to throw out accounts and 184 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 3: or have bandexed altogether. And Elon Musk had attempted to 185 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 3: kind of walk this line, saying that he believed, as 186 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 3: you're saying, David, that the actions of the Supreme Court, 187 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 3: that the application of the law was somehow unlawful, like 188 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 3: basically attempting to say, like, well, this is just a 189 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 3: dispute over the reading of the law. As if, as 190 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 3: you say that that that the Justice would bret back down, 191 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 3: which of course didn't happen. If he had, if he 192 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 3: had sort of tried to play this out, it would 193 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 3: create all sorts of problems in other countries, In Turkey, 194 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 3: in China, you know, anywhere where you have countries attempting 195 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 3: to restrict speech, which is a lot of countries. 196 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 4: Julia leto let me ask you this on the topic 197 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 4: of losing engagement and losing numbers there there has been 198 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 4: some migration from X users to other platforms there in Brazil. 199 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 4: Has there not been? 200 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, there has been. They were losing active users even 201 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: before this, as I think globally is the case as well. 202 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, But we did see. I 203 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 1: think the main ones were Threads, which is owned by Meta, 204 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: and Blue Sky, which was founded by Jack Dorsey. Both 205 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,839 Speaker 1: look very similar to Twitter and both saw a big 206 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: inflow in the lead up and right before Twitter went down, 207 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: politicians and celebrities and influencers started tweeting their handles in 208 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: these platforms so they wouldn't lose the following. 209 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 4: Now, did you yourself go over to believe hire threats? 210 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: I did not go into Blue Sky? I did. 211 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 5: I did. 212 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: I did go into Threads. 213 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 2: I did. 214 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 4: And now okay, now, but now that X is coming back, Julia, 215 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 4: are you going to shut Threads down? You're right back 216 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 4: on X or no, you're sold on Threads. I will. 217 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 1: I will keep it open, I see, but I will if, if, if, 218 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: and when it's restored, I will go back. 219 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 4: To people sending you like you were trying to watch 220 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 4: the debate, the US debate, the Kamala Harris Donald Trump debate. 221 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 4: You know, that was the kind of thing you to 222 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 4: typically would have followed on X. Unable to use simply 223 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 4: what we're like send screenshots by people outside of the 224 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 4: country pretty much. 225 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, both, And it was we are having local elections 226 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: here as well, which is also playing into this dynamic 227 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: of Musk and the Supreme Court. But watching a political 228 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 1: debate without Twitter or without. 229 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: X is very different. 230 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 3: I'm curious, like it's an interesting, sort of like natural 231 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 3: experiment to have a country, just a large country with 232 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 3: a big Twitter following, where you know there's a lot 233 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 3: of very healthy political discourse, suddenly have no Twitter, Julia 234 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 3: did has Does Brazil seem just like a less vibrant 235 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 3: place over the last month without this town Square, this 236 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 3: amazing app that we're all addicted to a little bit. 237 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: I think it's harder to find stuff right, and it's 238 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: harder to find common ground through these conversations because they're 239 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: all Some are on Blue Sky and some are on threads, 240 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,599 Speaker 1: and some are on WhatsApp group. So you just have 241 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: to get screenshots sent to you. 242 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 4: The whole time. Okay, well, Julia, you know you're gonna 243 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 4: have to let us know as soon as your account 244 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 4: is working again, to great fanfare, we shall announce it 245 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 4: here on this show. Thank you for joining us, and 246 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 4: we'll have you on again too. 247 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: Thank you. 248 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 4: Now we say hello to Dana Hall. Hello, Dana, hey, hey, 249 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 4: and we're going to talk all about the Chechen world 250 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 4: ROMs and Cadaroff and his cybertrock and how Elon Kadaroff 251 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 4: alleges has disabled it. What exactly is going on here 252 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 4: and how did Kadaroff get his hands on one of 253 00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 4: these things again in the first place. Remind us. 254 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 5: So this story is a little bit problematic for me 255 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 5: because we have no way to actually verify if anything 256 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 5: that this Chechnian warlord is saying is true. Right now, 257 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 5: the cyber truck is only sold in North America. That said, 258 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 5: some people in Europe and elsewhere have gotten their hands 259 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 5: on them. They're importing them via third parties. So apparently 260 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 5: he got his hands on a cyber truck, outfitted it 261 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 5: with a machine gun, drove it to the front lines 262 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 5: or used it, you know, in the war in Ukraine, 263 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 5: and then alleged that Elon Musk had disabled it remotely. 264 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 5: I mean, I can't verify if that that's true. Tesla 265 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 5: does not have a comms team, so it's like we're 266 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 5: sort of taking his you know, the whole news cycle 267 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 5: around this was basically taking this Chechnian warlord at face value. 268 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 5: And the people are like, you know, and I get it, like, oh, 269 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 5: Tesla cybertruck warlord. That's like easy clicks for the news media. 270 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 5: But I just have a problem with it because I 271 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 5: really have no idea what is true and what is 272 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 5: just sort of like a fake thing. 273 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 3: We also Musk denied that he gave the original claim 274 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 3: is that Musk gave him this truck. Musk denied it, 275 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 3: you know, right immediately, and like I, like Dan, I 276 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 3: think we should wait. 277 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 4: But are we doubting that this guy actually has his 278 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 4: hands on a truck and has fitted it with a 279 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 4: machine gun, or were we saying we think that those 280 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 4: are deep fakes. 281 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 3: Or were I think it's very possible, as Dana says, 282 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 3: that he managed to. 283 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 2: Acquire one through a third party. 284 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 3: That happens all the time in countries that are subject 285 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 3: to sanctions, so totally possible that it happened here. I 286 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 3: don't know what the You know, I'm not an expert 287 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 3: on cyber truck authenticity or whatever, but I do think, 288 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 3: like Dana is saying, we should regard these posts as 289 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 3: having motivations that might not be might not be as 290 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 3: explicit as just saying as just complaining elon Musk or 291 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 3: thanking him or whatever. This very much, to me has 292 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 3: felt like efforts by somebody who's very close to Vladimir 293 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 3: Putin to get messaging out into the Western media, which 294 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 3: has effectively here we are, we're talking about it, and. 295 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 4: We are indeed talking about it. Now, let me at 296 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 4: least ask you this part of it, though Dana he 297 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 4: cut her off, alleges that indeed that Musk disabled it, 298 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 4: and I need to ask you this is this a 299 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 4: thing so you can all of a sudden, like I 300 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 4: could be driving a cyber truck down the highway at 301 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 4: seventy two miles an hour or abiding the law, so 302 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 4: at fifty five and all of a sudden, you know, 303 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 4: big brother turns it off on me and I lose momentum, 304 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 4: Like is that is that possible? 305 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 5: That's the other thing, like it could have just broken 306 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 5: down right, Like I mean, the cyber truck is still 307 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 5: in fairly early production, so it could have just been 308 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 5: broken down and he's claiming that Musk himself disabled it. Yeah, 309 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 5: that said, like Tesla is very much a software based company. 310 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 5: You know a lot of people always talk about how 311 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 5: the vehicles are iPhones on wheels. I'm sure that like 312 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 5: if Elon and his like it and security team really 313 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 5: wanted to, they could like go deep into the bowels 314 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 5: of their security infrastructure and like low hate the vehicle 315 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 5: via the vinn and somehow like send some software to 316 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 5: you know to stop it. But I'm not under the 317 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 5: impression that this is something that like Tesla actively does. 318 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 5: I think a more plausible explanation is that it just 319 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 5: broke down. 320 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 2: Well, especially was on the bet so third party actor. 321 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 3: Like you know, first of all, there have been accounts 322 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 3: of other vehicles, non Tesla vehicles that have been remotely 323 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 3: accessed by hackers. Like Tesla isn't alone in having a 324 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 3: car that is connected to the internet that like they're 325 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 3: like this stuff has come up with other vehicle makes 326 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 3: where hackers have have reported exploits that they say have 327 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 3: been able to disable vehicles. There are also third parties 328 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 3: probably involved. There's like a chain of software providers and 329 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 3: so on, and if he really did acquire this cyber truck, 330 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 3: he acquired it through a broker, so so some other 331 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 3: third party who could have put something in the in 332 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 3: the like, It's just it just seems like there are 333 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 3: so many unknowns here that it's almost impossible to say 334 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 3: anything definitive or useful about this, except that, like the 335 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 3: cyber truck is a meme, and that meme has reached Russia. 336 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 5: And the cyber truck is a vehicle that I think 337 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 5: Musk would clearly love for the military to think of 338 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 5: as a procurement option. It's this apocalyptic car designed for 339 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 5: you know, zombies and life on Mars and apparently war, 340 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 5: and so I think that there's like some upside to 341 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 5: this being out there. But I'm just sort of frustrated that, 342 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 5: like we went through a whole news cycle of like 343 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,959 Speaker 5: credulidity based on like what a Russian warlord wrote on telegram, 344 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 5: and I just think that, you know, in this era 345 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 5: of disinformation and deep fakes, like I would prefer that 346 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 5: people just exercise a little bit more caution before believing 347 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 5: that there's any validity to this whatsoever. 348 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 4: So, you know, by the way he does counter off 349 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 4: again forever much we want to believe him. Here he 350 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 4: said that the cyber truck Max was performed its combat 351 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 4: tasks beautifully. Now I'm just trying to guess what we 352 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 4: think these tasks were. You know, was it actually in 353 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 4: the front line or was it like making dunkin donut 354 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 4: runs for the generals or something. 355 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 3: I have a hard like Dan, I have a hard 356 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 3: time believing any part of the story, including that part 357 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 3: of the story. The cyber truck has gotten kind of 358 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 3: middling reviews from car reviewers. I don't expect that military 359 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 3: reviewers are going to offer anything other than that. Although again, 360 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 3: it does have the look, and if you care about 361 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 3: the look, maybe, but I just don't. There's there's just like, 362 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 3: very little evidence that this is even a good way 363 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 3: to like haul wood, let alone move around your move 364 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 3: along a battlefield. 365 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, what's the charging infrastructure there? That's my other question. 366 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know. That's you know, that's it. That 367 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 4: is a very good question. But Max, to someone who's 368 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 4: hold a lot of wood in my life, yes, no, 369 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 4: I don't think that that's a wood hauling vehicle. 370 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 1: Dan. 371 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 4: I'm sorry to obsess on this point though, but on 372 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 4: the disabling of this thing. I'm just worried if all 373 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 4: of a sudden, my you know, my truck, you know, 374 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 4: as I'm driving down the road, is going to turn 375 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 4: off on me. What you're telling me is it's not 376 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 4: necessarily if this technology exists, in this ability to exist, 377 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 4: that big brother can do this to you. It's not 378 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 4: about whether your vehicle is an EV or a combustion 379 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 4: engine vehicle. It's about just how connected you ultimately are 380 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 4: to the Internet and how much you know, how much 381 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 4: of a smart vehicle it is. That's what would make 382 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 4: it to separate. 383 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 5: I mean, Chessa just has a lot of data about 384 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 5: its vehicles. Like there was a there was an incident 385 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 5: like years ago where certain vehicle owners, instead of charging 386 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 5: their Teslas at home, would go to like the local 387 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 5: supercharger and charge and they were kind of like using 388 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 5: the superchargers more than they were supposed to, and they 389 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 5: were like supercharger scoff laws, and like Tesla knew who 390 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 5: they were because they have the data analytics about like 391 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 5: charging use and they sent letters to some owners that 392 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 5: was like, hey, you should really charge at home, and 393 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 5: so they just know a lot about your vehicle there's 394 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 5: you know, so this is just the way that vehicles 395 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 5: are going to be going forward, Like especially if you 396 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 5: have a vehicle, this very software to find and Tesla 397 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 5: doesn't use third parties they do, you know, they buy 398 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 5: and large do all their software in house, so they 399 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 5: have a lot of information about you. Whether they're actively 400 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 5: disabling vehicles, I have no. 401 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 3: Idea, yeah, and I just think, like clearly, both of 402 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 3: these messages have seemed to feel like deliberate attempts. Both 403 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 3: of what mess both the original claim that he had 404 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 3: that here look at me driving around me a Chechen 405 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 3: warlord in a sanctioned country. That el must gifted me 406 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 3: this thing, which would be a sanctions violation, and the 407 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 3: claim that Tesla remotely disabled it, which would be damaging 408 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 3: if everyone believed that if that were if that were 409 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 3: true thing, if Tesla just goes around, you know, bricking. 410 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 2: These is what I'm trying to figure that out, that'd 411 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 2: be very damaging. 412 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 3: So to me, these feel like both in their own way, 413 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 3: attempts to somehow destabilize effect put out some information about 414 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 3: Musk that is damaged. 415 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 4: So you think this guy is short Tesla stock. 416 00:20:58,080 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: If I had to guess which direction he would is in. 417 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 4: I would guess short Okay, you know what that I'm sure. 418 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 3: That Chechen warloads have very you know, robust ethics codes 419 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 3: around short selling, so I wouldn't I wouldn't want to 420 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 3: accuse him of doing anything. 421 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 4: But okay, So given how both Max and Dana feel 422 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 4: like the entire thing, the entire episode and incident are preposterous, 423 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 4: We're moving on. Okay. You know, Max, it's been a 424 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 4: while since we've had a real feud watch here at 425 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 4: the end. So it's been weeks and weeks so long 426 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 4: that I've heard from some of our listeners they're wondering 427 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 4: if you're taking your job seriously enough here. 428 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 2: Oh my god, there have been so many good feuds 429 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 2: as you so where. 430 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 4: You've been, all right, So if you're back to you, 431 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 4: You've got not one but two for us this way. 432 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 3: And they are both related to land use disputes. So 433 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 3: the first is a lawsuit brought by the card company 434 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 3: Cards Against is a game company, I should say, Cards 435 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 3: against Humanity. They make sort of tabletop games. 436 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 5: Like Apples to Apples X rated version or something. 437 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 2: I always find it like to not be the most fun. 438 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 3: I'm more of a catan guy or whatever, but like, 439 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 3: you know, whatever to each his own, and they as 440 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 3: part of a cards against humanity, has a sort of 441 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 3: anti establishment. 442 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 2: There's a puckishness to everything they do. 443 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 3: During Donald Trump's presidency, they did some like a crowdfunding 444 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 3: effort to buy a swath of land on the Texas 445 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 3: border to stop form President Trump from building a border wall. 446 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,719 Speaker 3: And they have like taken this swath of land and 447 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 3: used it as ammunition in a new dispute with Elon Musk, 448 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 3: claiming that it's close to this launch site where SpaceX 449 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 3: shoots rockets off, claiming that SpaceX has essentially trashed their 450 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 3: land and asking for damages. And it's a very I 451 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 3: was trying to pull up the page that lays out 452 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 3: these allegations, but it's like a very entertaining complaint, essentially 453 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 3: saying we bought this land to mess with the efforts 454 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 3: of a racist billionaire. But now there's an even more 455 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 3: racist billionaire who is who you know who We've turned 456 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 3: our attention to, that being Elon Musk. 457 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I gotta say I love this feud, right, 458 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 4: I mean, this is a fantastic feud. And I feel 459 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 4: like a little bit like we were saying earlier about 460 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 4: you shouldn't mess with Brazil. Don't take on Cards against Humanity. 461 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 4: They're they're they're ferocious, Max, And so I also believe right, 462 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 4: correct me if I'm wrong that, according to the lawsuit, 463 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,479 Speaker 4: Musk and SpaceX tried to pony up the money and 464 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 4: hand hand Cards against Humanity some money and buy the land. 465 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 4: Cards against Humanity said, hey, this is like a tiny 466 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 4: little amount. This is a joe. Come on, we're not 467 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 4: taking this seriously. But you know, if you think about it, Max, 468 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 4: who better to own Cards against Humanity than Elon Musk? 469 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 4: Just but I would actually thought that maybe he found 470 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 4: it and created the game. It's a perfect game. 471 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 2: It does it. You're so right, David. 472 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 3: I mean, I will say they so they've included some 473 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 3: pictures of this land, and it really shows you that these, 474 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 3: I mean, the pictures look bad. Like it looks like 475 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 3: there's a before and after, and like one of them 476 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 3: looks like a nice like looking marsh and the other 477 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 3: looks like an industrial site. And I do think like 478 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 3: Elon Musk has made a lot of efforts to kind 479 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 3: of dismiss the concerns of environmentalists as just kind of 480 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 3: like red tape or seeing this kind of extended dispute 481 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 3: with the the FAA, the aviation authorities over these sort 482 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 3: of reauthorizing SpaceX disputes with the EPA. 483 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 2: Like this stuff, it like doesn't look good. 484 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 3: And I think, obviously he's gonna this is gonna roll 485 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 3: right off his back. But it isn't necessarily helpful for 486 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 3: a guy who has a lot of fans or used 487 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 3: to anyway have a lot of fans in the environmental movement. 488 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 4: But Dana, this is in line with somebody who likes 489 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 4: to push the envelope and whould much much more prefer 490 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 4: to ask for forgiveness than permission, right, Yeah, And I. 491 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 5: Think that this Cards against Humanity tidbit was like deep 492 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 5: in a really well reported Reuter story that was just 493 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 5: all about how vastly SpaceX has kind of changed Bokachika, 494 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,239 Speaker 5: you know, which is where Starbase is and buying up 495 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 5: all the land around it. And yeah, I mean, Musk 496 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 5: does not have a lot of tolerance for the slow 497 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 5: wheels of government bureaucracy. 498 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 3: The other thing I'll say is, and we're probably gonna 499 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 3: have to talk about this more in a subsequent episode 500 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 3: or episodes, But like Donald Trump is talking a lot 501 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 3: about Elon Musk these days, and has made comments about 502 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 3: Mars and the need, you know, suggesting that he's just 503 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 3: going to like hire Elon Musk to fly some rockets there. 504 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 3: This story and that together, it strikes me that that 505 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 3: if SpaceX were to become Trump coded, where like, if 506 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 3: you just start to think of this as like a 507 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 3: Trump thing, that it's not. This isn't about humanity getting 508 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 3: to Mars or expanding, you know, its ambitions or sort 509 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 3: of all of those like really you know values that 510 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 3: I think many people share about how how wonderful the 511 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 3: space exploration is. Like if it just turns into this 512 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 3: partisan thing, that would be very bad for you, Musk. 513 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 3: So like, I don't think this is not going to 514 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 3: damage him, but I do think there is this kind 515 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 3: of drumbeat of ways in which his sort of political 516 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 3: support for Donald Trump and his shift to the right 517 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 3: is creating exposure and like legal exposure, but also cultural exposure. 518 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 4: Okay, very good. Now listen to a certain extent, I 519 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 4: feel our rustiness here in the feud Watch segment, because 520 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 4: I think one of the rules of feud Watch is 521 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 4: you can't take any of it that seriously Okay, we're trying. 522 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 4: You're trying to break down a fight between Elon Musk 523 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 4: and the men and women of Cards Against Humanity. Come on, now, 524 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 4: you have a second feuture. 525 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 3: Okay, now this is This one is between Venodekosla, who 526 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 3: is a very famous, very accomplished venture capitalist also a 527 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 3: donor to democratic candidates. Like, it's so much back and forth. 528 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 3: They're just they've been mean tweeting each other for like 529 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 3: two days. He started by attempting to sort of criticize 530 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 3: some of Elon Musk's migration posts about migrants and essentially 531 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 3: calling Elon out for repeating the lie that that Haitians 532 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 3: are eating cats and dogs, and that devolved into a 533 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 3: lengthy back and forth in which Elon brought up an 534 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 3: earlier dispute, an earlier land dispute where Venode Cosla had 535 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 3: been trying to stop the public from accessing a beach. 536 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 3: Elon used a fake sign that said no pleabs allowed. 537 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 2: They posted that. Venode responded that that that's a notion. 538 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 3: You need to do a pull it, and lots of 539 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 3: back and forth and I really it really just shows 540 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 3: like Twitter is not the best place to resolve your 541 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 3: differences and as a result, we have these two very 542 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 3: wealthy guys, very powerful guys, kind of doing a back 543 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 3: and forth like crazy, like like schoolyard style. 544 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 4: Schoolyard style. I don't know. I still of the two 545 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 4: feuds you brought here this week, I still feel like 546 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 4: the Cards against Humanity is the better feud at the 547 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 4: two first of because I just like saying cards against humanity. 548 00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 4: I mean that that's part of it. 549 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 3: But I also like, can we talk about the the 550 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 3: opposite of a feud. I just want to say that 551 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 3: I had predicted that there that there might be a 552 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 3: closing together. 553 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 4: Predicted like what you told your kids or something. 554 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: No. 555 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 3: On this podcast, on this pot between Georgia Maloney, the 556 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 3: head of State of Italy, and Elon Maloney is here 557 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 3: in New York. 558 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 2: Elon gave her an award. 559 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 3: He said she was beautiful on the inside and the outside. 560 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: She's also someone who is authentic, honest, truthful, and that 561 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 1: kind of always be said about politicians. 562 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 3: It really feels like they had a connection already, but 563 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 3: it feels like that connection, that alliance, whatever you want 564 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 3: to call it, it has deepened, and like she's got 565 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 3: to be one of his favorite heads of state. 566 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 4: If not his favorite, right, then are we gonna grant 567 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 4: Max this point? Are we gonna Are we gonna reward 568 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 4: him and say, indeed he nailed this prediction. 569 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 2: He did. 570 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 5: I don't remember it was several months ago. 571 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 2: But yes, he did. 572 00:28:55,080 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 3: I predict that Elon Musk and Georgia Maloney, the leader 573 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 3: of Italy, will intensify their alliance. 574 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 5: However that means, and I mean they are united around 575 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 5: immigration about concerns about the falling birth rate. I think 576 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 5: it's interesting that like she My understanding is that she 577 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 5: chose him to get the award. 578 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 3: They both really do seem to be whatever to appreciate 579 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 3: the other, and you kind of get it. I mean, 580 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 3: Maloney is conservative but has has been effective as a 581 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 3: prime minister. She kind of maybe the embodiment of the 582 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 3: kind of world leader that Elon Musk admires that maybe 583 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 3: even in a way that Donald Trump is not. 584 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 4: Okay, very good Max. So that was a little bonus. 585 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 4: I thought we only had few well done, We're going 586 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 4: to leave it there, Max. Dana, as always, thank you 587 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 4: great to be here, Thanks for having us. This episode 588 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 4: was produced by Stacy Wong, Naomi Shaven, and Rayhan Harmantier 589 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 4: are senior editors. The idea for this very show also 590 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 4: came from Rayhon Blake Maples Handels Engineering and Dave Purcell 591 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 4: fact checks. Our supervising producer is Magnus Henrikson. The Elonin 592 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 4: theme is written and performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura. 593 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 4: Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman 594 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 4: is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks as 595 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 4: always to our supporter Joel Weber. I'm David Papadopoulos. If 596 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 4: you have a minute, rate and review our show, it'll 597 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 4: help other listeners find us. See you next week.