Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.
Speaker 2: This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Jonathan Ferrow, along
Speaker 2: with Lisa Bromwitz and Amrie Hordern join us each day
Speaker 2: for insight from the best in markets, economics, and geopolitics
Speaker 2: from our global headquarters in New York City. We are
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Speaker 2: Terminal and the Bloomberg Business app. We begin this hour
Speaker 2: with stocks at all time highs following seven straight days
Speaker 2: of games. John Stolfus of Oppenheimer remaining positive on equities
Speaker 2: and saying, quote, the broad rotation which began in the
Speaker 2: rally from last year's s and P five hundred low
Speaker 2: on October twenty seven, twenty twenty three, has repeatedly deflective volatility.
Speaker 2: John joined us now for more. John, Good morning, Laury
Speaker 2: once again yesterday deflecting volatility with that just another day
Speaker 2: support for you.
Speaker 3: Well, it was another data point, but in a series
Speaker 3: of data points that reflect the change in where we are.
Speaker 3: In essence, what it is is people are beginning to
Speaker 3: realize that this bull.
Speaker 4: Market has legs.
Speaker 3: There is a broadening that is undeniable in terms of
Speaker 3: the way investors have responded to their appetite for equities.
Speaker 3: I'd also say, you know, I think from a historical perspective,
Speaker 3: a lot of times the market is perceived as a
Speaker 3: place as a hotbed of fear and greed, but it
Speaker 3: also represents need.
Speaker 4: And the need is extraordinary.
Speaker 3: These days in terms of people's planning, whether it's for
Speaker 3: a kid's education, one's retirement in a world in which
Speaker 3: social security may not be any much the part of
Speaker 3: where it has been before.
Speaker 2: These are big themes the next several years, and maybe
Speaker 2: even the next several decades, forever our lifetime. I want
Speaker 2: to deal with the last twenty four aspects and then
Speaker 2: we can get to the bigger themes. Do you not
Speaker 2: think the threat from Donald Trump president like is credible?
Speaker 2: Does this market not belyve it's credible? Or is there
Speaker 2: really something to take away from this to sit here
Speaker 2: and say, actually, this equity market can handle it. It's
Speaker 2: resilient enough.
Speaker 3: A combination of the two in terms of the equity
Speaker 3: market being able to handle it. But the important thing
Speaker 3: is the market really cares ultimately about revenues and earnings,
Speaker 3: So areas that will be damaged by an aggressive trade
Speaker 3: policy with tariffs that.
Speaker 4: Are extreme would be problematic.
Speaker 3: That said, I think the market is recognizing that President
Speaker 3: Trump is essentially known for a pretty wild negotiation procedures.
Speaker 3: I mean, I always like to say when I speak
Speaker 3: with investors that I can just imagine if you had
Speaker 3: a property and this would be a small amount of
Speaker 3: money in New York, but you knew was worth about
Speaker 3: one hundred million, and you wanted to sell it to
Speaker 3: Donald Trump. My guesstimate is he'd start up with I
Speaker 3: think it's worth twenty million.
Speaker 4: You know, he's a hard negotiator.
Speaker 3: And I think the issues here that I think you
Speaker 3: mentioned at the beginning, where you're talking about as they
Speaker 3: put this the cabinet together, is that this is what
Speaker 3: we're dealing with here are genuinely unfair trade situations for
Speaker 3: the American worker essentially and for American businesses. And the
Speaker 3: problem is how do you get to right size that
Speaker 3: with so many countries really providing support to their businesses
Speaker 3: very different than ours, where we have high regulation, we
Speaker 3: have all.
Speaker 4: Kinds of.
Speaker 3: Our labor is much more expensive because we provide better
Speaker 3: for our workers.
Speaker 1: So it's fair to say that what you're basically indicating
Speaker 1: is that this is a market that isn't taking it seriously,
Speaker 1: that Trump is actually going to put through any of this,
Speaker 1: and that's not what's getting priced into markets at all.
Speaker 3: Well, I wouldn't say it's not being priced into markets
Speaker 3: at all. The traders certainly reflected just as you mentioned,
Speaker 3: one of the automakers yesterday got slammed. You know, when
Speaker 3: you get to that kind of a thing, without a doubt,
Speaker 3: there's volatility inherent in this procedure. But it's likely the
Speaker 3: whole thing that the Trump ran on was essentially to
Speaker 3: be beneficial for the US, and I think this is
Speaker 3: these are four years that he's got and he's not
Speaker 3: got four years after this in terms of running again,
Speaker 3: So I think they're going to be very sensitive to it.
Speaker 4: It should look there's going to be volatility. There always is.
Speaker 3: There's always uncertainty, but if you've got to keep your
Speaker 3: eye on the ball, and it looks like through innovation,
Speaker 3: the process of where we are today and that the
Speaker 3: US is the consumer of choice for every vendor in
Speaker 3: the world, puts us into a fairly good position that
Speaker 3: the negotiations may originally start out pretty painful to look at,
Speaker 3: and then things actually work out remarkably better.
Speaker 1: Some people are saying this is the fifth year of
Speaker 1: his administration. Essentially it's a continuation of policies that had
Speaker 1: been in place. There are a number of people who
Speaker 1: begged to differ with that, saying this is a very
Speaker 1: different circumstance economically than it was in twenty sixteen. Inflation
Speaker 1: is more of a real risk, there's more momentum.
Speaker 4: Companies are already in a good spot.
Speaker 1: The deficit is a lot steeper, and people are worried
Speaker 1: about bond heields. How much does that temper the ability
Speaker 1: to really implement some of these policies. How much are
Speaker 1: you watching the bond space to understand how bullish to
Speaker 1: get in equity land?
Speaker 3: Oh, we definitely watch the bond space because everything works
Speaker 3: on credit, right, I mean, you know, it doesn't matter
Speaker 3: if it's related to the consumer's credit card or what
Speaker 3: businesses are doing in terms of their borrowing needs and
Speaker 3: refinancings and m and a what have you. But what
Speaker 3: we'd have to say is, I think, realistically, you know,
Speaker 3: it's the end of free money, and it's a good thing,
Speaker 3: and that bond issuers once again have to pay for
Speaker 3: the privilege of borrowing money. Our projection on the ten
Speaker 3: year yield is because of the stickiness that's inherent in inflation.
Speaker 3: When you're coming out of a period like this, you're probably.
Speaker 4: The range being priced to range.
Speaker 3: It's yield somewhere between three point four percent to as
Speaker 3: high as five. At five, everybody gets freaked out. Then
Speaker 3: you get come down back to about four point two
Speaker 3: where we are now. But historically, you know, it's go
Speaker 3: back hundreds of years when it comes to ten year borrowing,
Speaker 3: four percent tends to be about it, whether you're you're
Speaker 3: borrowing for frankinsense and murr your you know, pepper corn
Speaker 3: or whatever venice with you.
Speaker 2: In the Nativity scene. Thanksgiving First, chant let's get some
Speaker 2: price targets the next year or so. Morgus Stanley sixty
Speaker 2: five hundred, BBC sixty six hundred, BEMOS sixty seven, Deutsche
Speaker 2: Banks Binkie chat A seven K. Then know why you
Speaker 2: think about that? I was talking about you yesterday. The
Speaker 2: average forecast on the S and P for this year
Speaker 2: was forty eight hundred. You were at the high fifty
Speaker 2: two hundred, and he won't bullish enough. What's the lesson
Speaker 2: a twenty twenty four men, before we get into twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five, it's the lesson been for you, A real
Speaker 2: good question.
Speaker 4: It's the second second time you've asked me that question.
Speaker 4: What's the lesson been in the year? And it's a
Speaker 4: great question.
Speaker 2: Last ye.
Speaker 4: And we'd have we'd have to stay.
Speaker 3: With this is you know, we started last year last
Speaker 3: December we had fifty two hundred. By March we raised
Speaker 3: it to fifty five. By July we went to fifty nine,
Speaker 3: and most recently we went to sixty two hundred for
Speaker 3: this year. The thing that concerns me the most at
Speaker 3: this point is that that's what was The people that you.
Speaker 4: Mentioned were a mix of bears and bulls who have
Speaker 4: these high targets.
Speaker 3: So everybody's on the same side of the boat, which
Speaker 3: makes the market vulnerable to volatility that can come about
Speaker 3: from any piece of economic data, corporate guidance, or anything.
Speaker 3: The traders will jump on anything and they'll take it,
Speaker 3: and they'll throw a perfectly good stock down like a
Speaker 3: hot potato. Okay, meantime, it creates an opportunity for those
Speaker 3: need investors who are investing intermediate to longer term or
Speaker 3: for their goals and objectives to pick up babies that
Speaker 3: get thrown out with the bathwater. So you have to
Speaker 3: measure that our target won't come out.
Speaker 4: Until mid December.
Speaker 3: As usual, we wait until people have gotten pretty crazy
Speaker 3: and take a look what happens. But we do have
Speaker 3: to say it's rather disconcerting when you hear people throwing
Speaker 3: around targets, you know, seven thousand. It sounds dramatic, but
Speaker 3: when you actually put it to the calculator, the percentage
Speaker 3: upside based on the innovation that exists, the ability for
Speaker 3: companies to navigate tougher waters as a result of the
Speaker 3: experience that.
Speaker 4: Managers have learned from the Great.
Speaker 3: Financial Crisis, the pandemic, the supply chain disruptions, and then
Speaker 3: the balance sheets of the consumer. You know, it looks
Speaker 3: like stocks could genuinely go quite a bit.
Speaker 2: Seventy people think we can get double digitate cents next year.
Speaker 2: We've talked about this is well. As human beings we
Speaker 2: unconditioned to overweight downside risk. We can spend the whole
Speaker 2: morning talking about downside risk. At LEASTA we'll no doubt
Speaker 2: want to do that. What could go right in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five? What do you think could go right?
Speaker 3: Well, I think among the things that you could go
Speaker 3: right would be continued resilience in revenue and earnings growth
Speaker 3: on a broad basis.
Speaker 4: I mean, if you look at the EA page.
Speaker 3: On a Bloomberg right now, you've got four sectors with
Speaker 3: double digit returns. I think it's eight sectors with I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: four sectors with double digit earnings growth. You have eight
Speaker 3: with positive earnings growth, and you have three with negative
Speaker 3: earnings growth. So the dispersion that you see in that
Speaker 3: tells you that you know, it's real. There's things that
Speaker 3: are really working, things that are somewhat working, and some
Speaker 3: things that are and in that kind of an environment,
Speaker 3: based on what we've seen, the big surprises could be
Speaker 3: that resilience continues as an operative word in the markets,
Speaker 3: and that perhaps apps that we see that when the
Speaker 3: actual negotiations work out, that the countries involved will actually
Speaker 3: come to terms more readily because of the importance of
Speaker 3: the American consumer and American business.
Speaker 1: You put that together with something that you said that
Speaker 1: when there is a bad headline, the company has just
Speaker 1: get dropped like a hot potato. I'm thinking of Target,
Speaker 1: Best Buy, Dell, at HP yesterday when they came out
Speaker 1: with weakers and expected earnings. What's your lens for knowing
Speaker 1: when it's a good opportunity when you should actually.
Speaker 4: Pick that up. Well, you know, when we look at companies.
Speaker 3: One of the reason why I can't mention individual companies,
Speaker 3: Oppenheimer doesn't like me to pitch my own stocks, right,
Speaker 3: But when we look at the companies, what we're always
Speaker 3: looking for it's the traditional It sounds a very easy
Speaker 3: out to say this, but essentially is good balance sheets,
Speaker 3: management that cares about their shareholders and their customers and
Speaker 3: their employees, and good ideas that they're managing through and hopefully.
Speaker 4: Some kind of an upgrade cycle. In technology.
Speaker 3: The thing is, we're all on the upgrade cycle, whether
Speaker 3: we like it or not.
Speaker 4: Ultimately, I will have to upgrade both.
Speaker 3: My fourteen my iPhone fourteen neither a recommendation to buy
Speaker 3: or cell applestock, and I will also have to update
Speaker 3: my success which.
Speaker 2: I still can't.
Speaker 4: I know, I know, which is is like an old
Speaker 4: model tea.
Speaker 5: It's like an advertisement.
Speaker 2: John, We're thankful for your optimism. Thank you, sir, I
Speaker 2: have a happy Thanksgiving with the family. Appreciate it same.
Speaker 2: Do you good to see Thank you John stufforstre of Oppenheim,
Speaker 2: a former New York Fed President Bill Dudley, wishing him
Speaker 2: luck right in the following. Market's exuberant response to his
Speaker 2: nomination certainly suggests this is what investors expects. Yeah, their
Speaker 2: optimism contrasts sharply with the difficulties he'll encounter in managing
Speaker 2: the treasury market, the country's fiscal trajectory, and the broader economy.
Speaker 2: Bill joined just now for more. But welcome to the program, sir.
Speaker 2: Let's get to those three points you make, managing the
Speaker 2: treasury market, the fiscal trajectory, and the broader economy. Of
Speaker 2: those three, Bill, what do you think is the biggest task?
Speaker 6: Haally managing the fiscal deficits?
Speaker 7: Since the Treasury Secretary doesn't have responsibility for text the
Speaker 7: spending policy, you can opine on it, but can he
Speaker 7: actually get it through Congress and get the administration to
Speaker 7: support it?
Speaker 6: So I think you know, we're on a trajectory.
Speaker 7: Right now where it's six percent of GDP deficits as
Speaker 7: far as the eye can see. And President let Trump
Speaker 7: has proposed things that will expand the deficit as opposed
Speaker 7: to contract the deficit.
Speaker 6: So I think that the.
Speaker 7: Fiscal OUTLOK longer term is probably the most challenging thing
Speaker 7: that he faces.
Speaker 2: But he gets some say on the maturity profile of
Speaker 2: US treasuries. What's your take of what's developed under Secretary
Speaker 2: Yeller at the Treasury and what changes would you anticipate
Speaker 2: in the is to come under Beston?
Speaker 7: Well, things didn't move a lot under Yell, and I
Speaker 7: think the maturity structure shortened a little bit.
Speaker 6: To Treasury typically doesn't want to.
Speaker 7: Move around the Treasury issuance calendar a lot because it
Speaker 7: basically unnerves market participants.
Speaker 6: They regular and predictable is sort of the watchword of
Speaker 6: the Treasury.
Speaker 7: So I would be surprised if Best at todaything that
Speaker 7: significantly changed the maturity structure of the Treasury debt. I
Speaker 7: think the biggest problem the problem he faces is to
Speaker 7: convince his colleagues in the administration that we need more
Speaker 7: tax revenue, we need to control spending, and that requires,
Speaker 7: you know, make some tip difficult choices.
Speaker 1: Bill, if you were still on the Fed, how would
Speaker 1: you think about some of the policies and the personnel
Speaker 1: that have been implemented are now so far and factor
Speaker 1: that into.
Speaker 5: Your outlook for next year.
Speaker 4: You have to come out with a forecast.
Speaker 1: You've got to make a dot next month.
Speaker 4: How do you even begin to do that?
Speaker 7: Yeah, so far, the FED has been very silent about
Speaker 7: President elect Trump. There is nothing, for example, in the
Speaker 7: minutes about the election in the new policy mix. I think,
Speaker 7: you know, to the extent that things get priced into
Speaker 7: financial market is sort of hard for the FED to
Speaker 7: then ignore them, because if you have prices bodying a
Speaker 7: certain expectation, how do you not include those prices in
Speaker 7: your forecast. Back in December twenty sixteen, the FED staff
Speaker 7: put a big fiscal stimulus in their forecast for twenty seventeen.
Speaker 7: So when Paula says, we don't assume, we don't speculate,
Speaker 7: we don't guess. The reality is if the markets start
Speaker 7: to judge that something is highly likely, then the FED
Speaker 7: has to sort of take that.
Speaker 6: On board in terms of their own thinking.
Speaker 7: I think the biggest issue in the very short term
Speaker 7: is what's going to happen to territs, because if tarofts
Speaker 7: are raised to any close to the degree that the
Speaker 7: President elect Trump is talking about it's going to be inflationary,
Speaker 7: it's going to be bad for growth, it's going to
Speaker 7: be bad for proactivity. And PRESIDENTLEC. Trump's talking about putting
Speaker 7: on tarifts on China, Canada, Mexico, you know, on day one,
Speaker 7: So that's probably the thing that's going to happen most quickly.
Speaker 7: The fiscal stuff is going to take longer because the
Speaker 7: tax cuts don't expire to the end of twenty twenty five,
Speaker 7: so that's probably more of a twenty twenty sixth story.
Speaker 1: You know, you said that tariffs are going to be inflationary.
Speaker 1: We've heard some disagreement about that around this table. Some
Speaker 1: people say that maybe in the very short term there's
Speaker 1: a one time price increase, but longer term in tariffs
Speaker 1: have been shown to be disinflationary time and again, why
Speaker 1: do you think that that's not going to be the case.
Speaker 7: Well, they're disinflationary to the extent that the people who
Speaker 7: are buying these now more expensive goods don't have as
Speaker 7: much real income and so they can't buy as much
Speaker 7: and that hurts the growth rate of the economy.
Speaker 6: So there is an effect on growth.
Speaker 7: The key question of terrorists is when prices go up
Speaker 7: to they get into wages. You know, the first Trump
Speaker 7: term increase in terrorists was well advertised, but the magnitude
Speaker 7: is actually quite small, went from about one a half
Speaker 7: percent of imports to three percent of imports.
Speaker 6: The magnitudes he's talking about this.
Speaker 7: Time are much much larger, So the price effect will
Speaker 7: be much greater. And I would expect that's at least
Speaker 7: some of that will get into wages, and if it
Speaker 7: gets into wages, then it keeps going.
Speaker 6: It's not a one time effect.
Speaker 4: Bill.
Speaker 1: Do you think that because of the uncertainty around policy
Speaker 1: and the potential for some of these policies to be inflationary,
Speaker 1: do you think on the margins that can push more
Speaker 1: members to really want to go even slower when it
Speaker 1: comes to rate cuts.
Speaker 6: Eventually.
Speaker 7: I think right now the Fed still on a you know,
Speaker 7: Madre policies restrictive, the dual mandate objectives of employment inflation
Speaker 7: are roughly imbalanced. We need to head towards neutral, and
Speaker 7: so I think there's still a trajectory to go towards neutral.
Speaker 7: But I think, you know, as they said more and
Speaker 7: more recently carefully, so December is not a done deal.
Speaker 6: I think it's probably more likely than not. At this point.
Speaker 7: It basically depends on the economic data, and you know
Speaker 7: the FED is basically data depended at this point.
Speaker 6: This is the one reason why Bessett's.
Speaker 7: Idea of putting in a shadow governor that Fed to
Speaker 7: basically make pronouncements as Powell's air apparent, makes a little sense,
Speaker 7: because what the FED.
Speaker 6: Does over the next year is really going to be
Speaker 6: driven by Defense Bill.
Speaker 2: How messy would that be if we had a shadow
Speaker 2: chair in the middle of next year.
Speaker 7: I think it's a absolutely terrible idea. I think one,
Speaker 7: I don't think it would do much. Number two just
Speaker 7: annoy all the other members of the Federal Reserve. So
Speaker 7: you have this shadowed person coming in to be chair
Speaker 7: after he's probably annoyed everybody else within the Federal Reserve
Speaker 7: system by undercutting the current chairman.
Speaker 6: That doesn't sound like a good recipe for success.
Speaker 7: When you think about the chairman's power comes from its
Speaker 7: ability to move the committee in a chief consensus. So
Speaker 7: I think the share chairman the chaff chairman, if he
Speaker 7: did what best at the implies that he would do
Speaker 7: would alienate most of his colleagues on the FED.
Speaker 2: Bill Dudley. Thank you, sir, the former New York Fed
Speaker 2: President of the Federal Reserve through the next year. Thankful
Speaker 2: this morning because we get these second chance of speaking
Speaker 2: to Situ rich candoundly for us to research to reach it.
Speaker 2: We'll try again. Thanks for being able to understand. You
Speaker 2: heard the question, but you didn't get to answer it.
Speaker 2: So we'll start there again. Department stores, it's been a
Speaker 2: struggle for a long long time. What aren't they doing right?
Speaker 2: What do they need to fix? Its fixable?
Speaker 5: Well, I don't know that it's really fixable.
Speaker 8: It's really a sector issue, which is really it's widespread.
Speaker 8: It's because consumers just haven't been shopping as much, particularly
Speaker 8: in the B and C tier malls where a lot
Speaker 8: of these department stores have heavy concentration. We're talking about Mac's,
Speaker 8: We're talking about Coals, of.
Speaker 5: Course, JAYC. Penny.
Speaker 8: These are the anchor stores that really thrived in like
Speaker 8: the nineteen eighties and even before, but essentially since two
Speaker 8: thousand they have been on a downturn. A ton of
Speaker 8: competition certainly from e commerce, certainly from higher ends stores
Speaker 8: and brands really that have decided to all go direct
Speaker 8: to consumer. So that's been some of their biggest challenge.
Speaker 8: And I don't know that it's necessarily fixable. It's really
Speaker 8: a shift in the retail landscape altogether.
Speaker 1: Streida, What does this mean in terms of just how
Speaker 1: much this land could shift going forward?
Speaker 4: Because if the.
Speaker 1: Whole model of a strip mall is outdated, well there's
Speaker 1: a lot more carnage to come.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 8: We've talked about the transformation of these retail venues for
Speaker 8: a long time, and a lot of it is about
Speaker 8: switching out the real estate with other anchor tenants, or
Speaker 8: breaking up the anchor tenants into smaller plots where you
Speaker 8: have perhaps smaller tenants that are in them. We've seen
Speaker 8: these anchor tenants switch to everything from grocery stores which
Speaker 8: are growing, to gyms and fitness facilities. In some cases,
Speaker 8: it could just be a mixed use facility where you're
Speaker 8: transforming it into some sort of an office space and
Speaker 8: really really distressed areas. We've seen some of these anchor
Speaker 8: tenants become churches or schools or things completely unrelated to retail.
Speaker 1: All I can say is I provide some research at home,
Speaker 1: some research regarding retail with some of the family members,
Speaker 1: and I hear a lot about drops of different types
Speaker 1: of products and different influencers that are doing said drops.
Speaker 1: Is the entire mo model of retail fundamentally changing in
Speaker 1: a way that some retailers like Gap are really aware of,
Speaker 1: others are kind of struggling to really get on board with.
Speaker 8: Well, there is no question that the Internet has absolutely
Speaker 8: changed it. And you were talking a lot about Amazon earlier.
Speaker 8: That's certainly the biggest player, but definitely the social media is.
Speaker 8: The social media players are also impacting how people discover goods,
Speaker 8: where they actually shop for goods, and what we're seeing
Speaker 8: even within e commerce is a lot of fragmentation, particularly
Speaker 8: with smaller, lesser known players that are able to gain
Speaker 8: some traction because they are able to get some influencer
Speaker 8: credibility for a short period of time. Now, if they're lucky,
Speaker 8: some of them will end up getting purchased by larger players.
Speaker 8: At some of the beauty companies have been purchased by
Speaker 8: Laureal or State Lauder, but that's usually the dream exit
Speaker 8: strategy for a lot of these companies. In many cases
Speaker 8: they simply may go away and other influencers come and take.
Speaker 2: So to read the two key dates now January fifteenth,
Speaker 2: Poor discussions. Twentieth President Donald Trump comes in with a
Speaker 2: big promise to hi c up tariffs. What do these
Speaker 2: companies do now with inventory? How much do they need
Speaker 2: to stalk ahead of time? And what did they learn?
Speaker 2: Are they conditioned by the mistake the target made?
Speaker 8: Well, the truth is that it is probably if you
Speaker 8: are if you're looking for what is going to happen
Speaker 8: in January, it may be a little too late already.
Speaker 5: These are issues that.
Speaker 8: The retail industry has been grappling with since the first
Speaker 8: Trump administration, and what we started to see was diversification
Speaker 8: away from some of these tariff markets like China over time,
Speaker 8: and I expect that that will continue to happen there will.
Speaker 5: The good thing.
Speaker 8: Is is that Q one tends to be a soft
Speaker 8: quorterer in retail anyway, so it doesn't seem like it
Speaker 8: makes a ton of sense to be stalking up inventory
Speaker 8: for them, especially becaus you don't know what the demand
Speaker 8: is going to be like in twenty twenty five without
Speaker 8: better signals, because it is such an uncertain economy at
Speaker 8: this moment in time. So I think that what we
Speaker 8: will continue to see is diversification, will continue to see
Speaker 8: changes to supply chain. There will be questions around whether
Speaker 8: or not Latin America and Mexico are in fact good
Speaker 8: places to be near shoring, versus if they too will
Speaker 8: have tariffs, particularly on some of those soft goods.
Speaker 5: So a lot I think is still TBD, and.
Speaker 2: If you get it wrong, you get targeted quite literally
Speaker 2: suchar Into Kadali. As far as the research. This is
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