Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridge Todd, and this
Speaker 1: is there are No Girls on the Internet. Okay, So, Mike,
Speaker 1: as you know, in our last news roundups, you and
Speaker 1: I got a little bit heated about our respective thoughts
Speaker 1: on so self checkout kiosks in retail stores. I was surprised.
Speaker 1: I thought, certainly everybody hates these things as much as
Speaker 1: I do. I was surprised to find that was not
Speaker 1: the case. You had a different position. So my position
Speaker 1: was that those self checkout kiosks in Target, Walmart, grocery stores,
Speaker 1: whatever they generally need to involve a human to work properly.
Speaker 1: I don't think they're that much more efficient or that
Speaker 1: much more fast. And I also didn't think the old
Speaker 1: system of just human cashiers was that bad, although I
Speaker 1: have come to sort of update that position since hearing
Speaker 1: the feedback that listeners have. So that is my position,
Speaker 1: and when I sat down to do that episode, I
Speaker 1: was surprised. If I but you have a completely different position.
Speaker 1: Would you like to articulate it?
Speaker 2: Sure, it's not completely different, because your first point that
Speaker 2: the machines require a human to operate them. We agree
Speaker 2: on that. I think everyone agrees that a human still
Speaker 2: needs to be involved even if it's a self checkout. However,
Speaker 2: we disagree that I think that those self checkout machines
Speaker 2: or some sort of self checkout system have a place
Speaker 2: in polite society, and that they are not inherently bad.
Speaker 2: They are not destroying, you know, the fabric of what
Speaker 2: makes us who we are. They are just a useful
Speaker 2: tool that can help us check out with our items.
Speaker 1: So that is something that I want to get into today,
Speaker 1: because that episode was just a you know, one story
Speaker 1: of a larger news round up with other stories, and
Speaker 1: so I wanted to revisit the issue and highlight a
Speaker 1: few of the angles that we didn't have time to
Speaker 1: get into, and also hear from some of you listeners
Speaker 1: on your thoughts on self checkouts versus human checkouts. The
Speaker 1: thing that you just said about whether or not self
Speaker 1: checkout is sort of tearing at the fabric of who
Speaker 1: we are as people. For whatever reason, I realized, after
Speaker 1: doing some deep thought that I carry that as like
Speaker 1: a worldview, and it's a worldview that I carried completely
Speaker 1: unchallenged until doing this episode. Do you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: I just automatically assumed, well, certainly this is a sign
Speaker 1: of society and decay. And doing this episode was the
Speaker 1: first time that I really had to step back and
Speaker 1: challenge why that was an automatic assumption on my part.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. I also brought a lot of unchallenged
Speaker 2: assumptions to this conversation, And I really appreciate the listeners
Speaker 2: who wrote in because some of them had some really
Speaker 2: like thoughtful andsightful things to say that I hadn't thought
Speaker 2: about it. I think you hadn't thought about And one
Speaker 2: of the other interesting things about this story is, like
Speaker 2: you said, it was just one story of a news roundup,
Speaker 2: like kind of a throwaway, but like it turned out
Speaker 2: that you and I both had pretty strong opinions about it,
Speaker 2: and listeners did as well. And I think this might
Speaker 2: be the segment that has received like the most listener
Speaker 2: feedback of anything that we've ever done of this show.
Speaker 2: So it's launching it in twenty twenty, which is surprising
Speaker 2: because it's such a I don't know, I don't want
Speaker 2: to say, a non issue, but like you know, at
Speaker 2: the presidential debate stage, they're not talking about self checkout machines.
Speaker 3: You know they should be.
Speaker 2: Maybe they should, maybe they'd win some votes, but maybe
Speaker 2: it's a dangerous issue. I don't know. But it's not
Speaker 2: like life or death, right. There's something sort of mundane
Speaker 2: about it. But for some reason, we're we all have
Speaker 2: a lot to say about it. And I guess I've
Speaker 2: been thinking about why that is. You know, is it
Speaker 2: the university universality of it? Like every person can relate
Speaker 2: to everybody buys groceries. The question of which line do
Speaker 2: I get in is just one of a thousand tiny
Speaker 2: decisions that we have to make every day that is
Speaker 2: like sort of exhausting and like sort of low stakes,
Speaker 2: but all so like choosing wrong could mean the difference
Speaker 2: of like ten minutes of standing in line, which is
Speaker 2: like the worst thing that could possibly happen to a
Speaker 2: person when they're standing in line. So there's a lot here.
Speaker 1: I felt so strongly about this issue that I was
Speaker 1: willing to pull on my boots and go out into
Speaker 1: the snow at six pm just to prove you wrong
Speaker 1: about my self. Checkout feelings, and yeah, I completely agree
Speaker 1: with you. This is We've never gotten this level of
Speaker 1: passioned feedback from folks of all the episodes that we've done,
Speaker 1: So let's get into some of these issues that we
Speaker 1: didn't have time for in that episode. So one big
Speaker 1: issue that I definitely want to start with is the
Speaker 1: fact that I didn't know this self checkout aisles are
Speaker 1: not generally very accessible. I read a story about a
Speaker 1: woman who was visually impaired and she was trying to
Speaker 1: use the self checkout, couldn't see the screen well enough
Speaker 1: to check out, asked for help from the clerk, and
Speaker 1: the clerk ended up just moving her to the human
Speaker 1: checkout line instead, and so it set up the system
Speaker 1: where shoppers with disabilities basically could not use the system
Speaker 1: at all, which became a lawsuit. The National Federation of
Speaker 1: the Blind sued Walmart, arguing that the company had violated
Speaker 1: the Americans with Disabilities Act by excluding blind people from
Speaker 1: using the service in the way that it was intended
Speaker 1: independently and privately. So a federal judge in Maryland did
Speaker 1: end up ruling in Walmart's favor. Walmart maintained that its
Speaker 1: self checkout system is accessible because staff are trained to help,
Speaker 1: but if disabled customers have to ask for assistance, not
Speaker 1: only will the transaction likely take longer, they also lose
Speaker 1: the option to keep their purchases private. Privacy is a
Speaker 1: reason why someone might use self checkout over a human checkout.
Speaker 1: So this benefit of self checkout being able to keep
Speaker 1: whatever you're buying private is just not being offered to
Speaker 1: all shoppers equally.
Speaker 3: This I found so interesting.
Speaker 1: So the Food Institute spoke to Nicki Shaw, who is
Speaker 1: the US operations manager at storm Interface, a company that
Speaker 1: creates assistive technology products at Taco Bell and McDonald's, and
Speaker 1: Nicky said, having the option to check out independently is
Speaker 1: unfortunately not available to all customers because of inaccessible point
Speaker 1: of sale, which is like the machines that do the
Speaker 1: checking out. By denying some customers this option, what message
Speaker 1: is this retailer sending to those customers. I think that's
Speaker 1: such a good point, Like it just sounds like accessibility
Speaker 1: issues can be a big thing with self checkout if
Speaker 1: not everybody can use them equally, which it sounds like
Speaker 1: what's going on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a good point we're thinking about, And
Speaker 2: you know, I have to wonder if the companies who
Speaker 2: make these devices and systems we're being more mindful of accessibility,
Speaker 2: would that lead to devices that work better for everyone, Right,
Speaker 2: That's often something that is seen in I know, at
Speaker 2: least like software design, that when you really focus on
Speaker 2: making things accessible for a particular population that has specific needs,
Speaker 2: the benefits are much broader than those people and you
Speaker 2: end up with a nicer, better functioning system for everyone. Absolutely,
Speaker 2: and also people with disabilities should be able to use them.
Speaker 2: Interesting to think about what that might look like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I really agree with Nicki Shaw that our
Speaker 1: retailers saying that only certain shoppers get the benefit of
Speaker 1: privacy at self checkout, And I think that's a fair
Speaker 1: question to ask, Like, they probably wouldn't say that because
Speaker 1: that would have to they would be admitting that they're
Speaker 1: violating the Americans with Disabilities Act. But it's a fair
Speaker 1: question to ask, like, some shoppers get the ability to
Speaker 1: use self checkout to privately check out, and others just don't.
Speaker 3: Is that what you're saying.
Speaker 1: So we talked in that episode about how self checkout
Speaker 1: might increased theft. However we really didn't get into kind
Speaker 1: of my biggest concern around theft. Like retailer theft is
Speaker 1: not an issue that I feel deeply strong about. It
Speaker 1: doesn't like move me. However, when I was talking about theft.
Speaker 1: I don't think we got into it. One of the
Speaker 1: things I wanted to talk about is the potential risk
Speaker 1: to shoppers being accused of theft from using self checkout,
Speaker 1: even if they didn't actually steal anything or just like
Speaker 1: scanned or forgot to scan something legitimately by mistake. Right,
Speaker 1: So the reason why I want to bring this up,
Speaker 1: I'll say this, take this with a massive grain of salt,
Speaker 1: because I did see it on TikTok, and like I
Speaker 1: wasn't able to you know, confirm everything this TikToker said. However,
Speaker 1: I did see this TikTok from Carrie Jerrigan, who is
Speaker 1: a criminal defense attorney at a TikTok personality, who warned
Speaker 1: that she doesn't think that anybody should use self checkout
Speaker 1: because it is very easy to be accused of retail
Speaker 1: theft even if you just made a mistake or didn't
Speaker 1: steal anything at all. Basically, she says that because people
Speaker 1: who are intentionally stealing from self checkout are really good
Speaker 1: at it, like they've really sharp, like honed their tactics,
Speaker 1: and I guess it's difficult to catch at this point.
Speaker 1: Because of that, retailers have no sympathy for anybody who
Speaker 1: makes just like a common mistake with their self checkout.
Speaker 1: Retailers are essentially focusing on people who maybe forgot to
Speaker 1: scan that big thing of coke that you put under
Speaker 1: the under the shopping cart or whatever, or people who
Speaker 1: legitimately did and still anything, and then blaming those people
Speaker 1: for inventory loss. So this attorney says that retailers will
Speaker 1: later check their inventory and if they come up short,
Speaker 1: they will go after people who made a legit transaction
Speaker 1: of that I am, she says, So they will begin
Speaker 1: watching hours and hours of video to see the last
Speaker 1: person who checked out with the Mario Lego set, because
Speaker 1: they're two Mario Lego sets short, and for some reason
Speaker 1: they pinpoint that they think you did it. And because
Speaker 1: of who these big box stores are, they usually have
Speaker 1: to present very little evidence to get an affidavit for
Speaker 1: warrant signed. The charges that could land you up to
Speaker 1: a year in jail get filed, and then you are
Speaker 1: fighting for your life trying to determine what day you
Speaker 1: were at Walmart and what all you bought. I know that,
Speaker 1: like I immediately crumple my receipt up and put it
Speaker 1: in my pocket of my winter code and then like
Speaker 1: hang it up in storage forever. So if somebody ever
Speaker 1: was like, can you provide a receipt for what you
Speaker 1: bought at Walmart two months ago, the answer would be
Speaker 1: absolutely not. I would not be able to provide any
Speaker 1: proof of that transaction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely not. I would I think they were joking
Speaker 2: if they asked me, right.
Speaker 1: And so that TikTok was probably the first time that
Speaker 1: I ever started thinking deeply about self checkout and.
Speaker 3: Sort of like what it means.
Speaker 1: I don't have any data on this, but it wouldn't
Speaker 1: be a massive surprise to me to find that that
Speaker 1: kind of enforcement was not being equally applied. I would
Speaker 1: have no trouble believing that some people are being looked
Speaker 1: at a little bit harder when it comes to that
Speaker 1: kind of thing. I also should say, you know, in
Speaker 1: case folks don't know, like when you do check out
Speaker 1: with self checkout, like you are being video recorded the
Speaker 1: entire time, so you know, they definitely can pull back
Speaker 1: video footage. And I'm sure it probably wouldn't be hard
Speaker 1: for a target or a Walmart to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: we think this person might have stolen something and then
Speaker 1: provide video evidence that doesn't really show anything to get
Speaker 1: that warrant signed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I definitely assume when I'm in Target
Speaker 2: that I'm being like videotaped all the time, especially at
Speaker 2: self checkout. I would be so shocked if they were
Speaker 2: to contact me like weeks or months after leaving. That
Speaker 2: seems so surprising. I'm curious how often that happens.
Speaker 1: So I was too, you know, I just saw this
Speaker 1: one TikTok from a lawyer. I did confirm she is
Speaker 1: a lawyer, but you know, I was like, this is
Speaker 1: really happening. So a deep Google search did bring up
Speaker 1: a few posts of people on legal message boards claiming
Speaker 1: that they were used of stealing from using self checkout
Speaker 1: when they hadn't actually sole and that they ended up
Speaker 1: meeting to deal with like lawyers, fees and like it
Speaker 1: took lots of time for them to sort it out.
Speaker 1: So it does kind of seem like this might be
Speaker 1: an issue that's happening. And ultimately this kind of gets
Speaker 1: at one of my biggest beefs with self checkout, the
Speaker 1: implication that me, as the shopper, should be the one
Speaker 1: who is tasked with its responsibility in making sure that
Speaker 1: everything is scanned correctly, and like I'm paying the amount
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to pay.
Speaker 3: Like, I know that people like to shit.
Speaker 1: On retail employees, but I have better retail employee.
Speaker 3: It is important work.
Speaker 1: Those jobs exist for a reason, and so like, I
Speaker 1: don't know that we should be so picked to just
Speaker 1: outsource those jobs to the very same people that we
Speaker 1: like can't even trust to put their shopping carts away
Speaker 1: consistently when they go grocery shopping, and just trust that
Speaker 1: the populace is going to be able to do this correctly.
Speaker 3: Like, I'm not trained at it. I might be distracted.
Speaker 1: I'm not going in thinking, you know, listening carefully to
Speaker 1: these beeps and what actually gets beeped and put in
Speaker 1: the bag? That is a that is something that is
Speaker 1: that if I do incorrectly, I could wind up with
Speaker 1: legal fees and pork costs or whatever. That does not
Speaker 1: sound like a great setup to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah it doesn't. But you know, again, I am curious
Speaker 2: how many cases there are like this where someone legitimately
Speaker 2: made some sort of mistake or error where they thought
Speaker 2: they had paid for a thing but they didn't pay
Speaker 2: for it, and then they end up like getting charged
Speaker 2: with theft. Maybe maybe it is happening a lot. I
Speaker 2: don't know, but I guess a lot of this debate
Speaker 2: again circles back in the most low stakes way possible
Speaker 2: to like what kind of society do we want to
Speaker 2: live in? And it doesn't seem completely far fetched to
Speaker 2: me that like adult shoppers should understand that, like you
Speaker 2: have to pay for the things that you want to
Speaker 2: take out of the store and like operate this machine
Speaker 2: in a way that makes that how it goes down, right,
Speaker 2: Like it's yeah, maybe I haven't like had a training
Speaker 2: in this software, but like at the Giant, I've used
Speaker 2: those shelf checkouts like hundreds, if not thousands of times,
Speaker 2: and like any other piece of software, yeah, it takes
Speaker 2: a little bit of like experience to try to figure
Speaker 2: out how to work it, but you know it's achievable.
Speaker 3: I don't want this to devolve into another argument.
Speaker 2: I know, I know, I hold every every statement is
Speaker 2: an opportunity to get into it.
Speaker 1: Well, so I agree with you on the surface, right
Speaker 1: that like, yeah, people, you shouldn't just go into Target
Speaker 1: and expect to just walk out with stuff that you
Speaker 1: haven't paid for all the like, do I really am
Speaker 1: I really crying? Like Target has plenty of money. Am
Speaker 1: I really like crying tears for Target?
Speaker 2: It's not like we're talking about that CBS and Columbia Heighten.
Speaker 3: That's right, the CV, that's where everything's free.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just take what you want. Everything's free.
Speaker 1: But like, I just think that efficiently checking out you
Speaker 1: do have to bring a level of awareness that I
Speaker 1: don't always have when I go into a Target, because
Speaker 1: I'm not thinking of going into work, and so like
Speaker 1: if you're not. If I often when I shop, I'm
Speaker 1: listening to music or podcasts in my headphones, I'm not
Speaker 1: necessarily listening for the beep beep beep of every item.
Speaker 1: It is conceivable that you could put something in your
Speaker 1: bag and not hear the beep if you're like a
Speaker 1: new parent who hasn't had any sleep, and you're distracted
Speaker 1: and your phone's going off and the kid is crying. Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know that this is a widespread thing, but
Speaker 1: I do think there are scenarios where perhaps that is
Speaker 1: a burden that a consumer who is not at work
Speaker 1: should not have to shoulder when they go in to
Speaker 1: like pick up some items at Target, particularly if that
Speaker 1: vernon could wind up with you having legitimate legal trouble
Speaker 1: over it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, these are two separate issues, both worthy of debate
Speaker 2: and discussion. You know, is it ethical to ask shoppers
Speaker 2: to scan their own items? And separately, should people be
Speaker 2: prosecuted when they make legit mistakes? Seems like clearly the
Speaker 2: answer to that second question is no.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, a thousand percent. So do you remember Andy Rooney.
Speaker 2: All the time? Every day? I miss him so much.
Speaker 1: So for people who don't know who Andy Rooney is,
Speaker 1: God rest his soul.
Speaker 3: Andy Rooney used to be on sixty Minutes.
Speaker 1: He had a segment which that was literally just him
Speaker 1: like complaining for twenty minutes, Like I will never forget
Speaker 1: a segment where he just walks around a grocery store
Speaker 1: and like picks up fruits that he doesn't like, and
Speaker 1: it's like candalops.
Speaker 3: Who need them. And meanwhile I'm like riveted. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 3: this is great TV.
Speaker 1: But there is a piece in the Washington Post that
Speaker 1: could have been written by the spirit of Andy Rooney.
Speaker 1: It is like one of those style pieces called Dear
Speaker 1: grocery store Owners, I don't work for you. The whole
Speaker 1: thing is snarky as hell, But this is the thing
Speaker 1: I wanted to sort of tease out. The piece reads,
Speaker 1: dear grocery store owners, have you seen me in the
Speaker 1: break room? No, there's a reason I don't work for you.
Speaker 1: I don't want to work for you. I was bad
Speaker 1: at it as a middle schooler, and I'm worse now.
Speaker 1: And then he goes on to say a lot of
Speaker 1: stores position a receipt checker to see whether people actually
Speaker 1: paid for all the stuff they have. Wait a second,
Speaker 1: you set up this system, You made us do all
Speaker 1: of this, So now that we've slogged our way through
Speaker 1: our temp job with zero training, they're going to audit us.
Speaker 1: And I think that that kind of gets at something
Speaker 1: where nobody asked your average consumer whether or not this
Speaker 1: is a dynamic they wanted to do. I guess you
Speaker 1: have the choice when you get into the self checkout
Speaker 1: line or the human line. Although at our target, oftentimes
Speaker 1: you go in there late at night, there is no
Speaker 1: human option.
Speaker 3: Is just self check out. You and I both know
Speaker 3: this to be true.
Speaker 2: No, I don't know what's going on with the human
Speaker 2: cashier lines at that target. They are a checkout option
Speaker 2: of last resort for me.
Speaker 1: So you're like, I would never rarely am I dealing
Speaker 1: with the human line at.
Speaker 3: That specific target.
Speaker 2: But unless something has gone wrong.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, But that thing that happens after you do self
Speaker 1: checkout at some big box retailers, where then you have
Speaker 1: to show them your receipt and they have to check
Speaker 1: to see and maybe they have to put like a
Speaker 1: little marker thing on it. That has been a source
Speaker 1: of consternation for the public for a while. You've probably
Speaker 1: seen videos of people like refusing to show their receipt.
Speaker 3: Apparently from what I have read.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm no lawyer, this is not legal advice,
Speaker 1: but you don't actually have to stop and have that
Speaker 1: interaction with the person who is like, can I see
Speaker 1: your receipt?
Speaker 3: I think that the fact that that.
Speaker 1: Is a moment of frustration for so many people, I
Speaker 1: think gets at what this Washington Post piece is talking about.
Speaker 1: That people feel like, well, you asked me to scan
Speaker 1: out my stuff, and now.
Speaker 3: You don't even trust me to do it. Like, either
Speaker 3: you trust me or you don't.
Speaker 2: This is one spot where you and I see eye
Speaker 2: to eye because I hate that, you know, I've a
Speaker 2: I hate people like stopping me and you know, having
Speaker 2: this interaction with a security person who is acting like
Speaker 2: a copy even though they're not. I hate that, And
Speaker 2: then they want me to like take all my stuff
Speaker 2: out of my bag. I take a lot of care
Speaker 2: when I pack my bags. And when I'm like done
Speaker 2: with the checkout and carrying my fully packed bags, I'm
Speaker 2: like ready to carry them home. I'm not ready to
Speaker 2: imprompt to take all the contents out and show them
Speaker 2: to some security goon uh to check me. So I
Speaker 2: agree with you there. I don't understand why they can't
Speaker 2: be doing that checking with all of the cameras that
Speaker 2: they've got showing me from like five different angles while
Speaker 2: I'm checking out, Like if they don't see me stealing
Speaker 2: something when you know when I'm actually doing it, why
Speaker 2: just do like these these random checks down the line.
Speaker 2: Don't like it.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that, because retail chains are investing a
Speaker 1: lot of money on like very serious kind of creepy
Speaker 1: surveillance technology, and so it does seem to with it
Speaker 1: if you have all of this technology to then be
Speaker 1: like and then you have to go through this little
Speaker 1: indignity of showing me your receipt and opening your bag
Speaker 1: on top of it, it does seem a little much.
Speaker 1: So Walmart uses what internally they call the mist scan detection,
Speaker 1: which they say helps detect when an item lands in
Speaker 1: a shopping bag without being scanned. And so they're basically
Speaker 1: these AI powered visual scanners and cameras that are at
Speaker 1: both the self checkout register and the registers run by
Speaker 1: the store cashiers. There was at least at some point
Speaker 1: use of facial recognition technology in Walmart. In twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: Walmart faced a lawsuit that was seeking class action status
Speaker 1: a legend that Walmart violated Illinois's Biometric Privacy Act by
Speaker 1: improperly using cameras in advanced video surveillance systems, as well
Speaker 1: as software and databases provided by the facial recognition.
Speaker 3: Company Clearview AI.
Speaker 1: So Walmart spokesperson says that they were just testing out
Speaker 1: facial recognition technology that they weren't actually like rolling it
Speaker 1: out in the stores. But it does sound like all
Speaker 1: parties agree that this facial recognition technology was being used.
Speaker 1: We've already done so many episodes on why that technology
Speaker 1: is janky, faulty, racist, sexist, like it just don't work,
Speaker 1: really is what it is. And so if that's the
Speaker 1: technology that you're kind of counting on or flirting with
Speaker 1: to deter theft. It really presents a whole host of
Speaker 1: issues because because it's really just not really reliable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, facial recognition, as we've talked about on a bunch
Speaker 2: of episodes, is like bad news reinforces a lot of
Speaker 2: bad disparities, certainly in this context when it's you know,
Speaker 2: one step away from somebody being charged with a crime. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And you know, the point that it's a lot of
Speaker 2: money in these invested in these systems, Yeah, can't argue
Speaker 2: with that.
Speaker 1: And that's sort of one of my questions Slash theories
Speaker 1: is that it just that sounds like a lot of
Speaker 1: investment in surveillance technology. And I feel like, if this
Speaker 1: is the level of surveillance technology that you need to
Speaker 1: make self checkout work, then there is a problem And
Speaker 1: I can't so first of all, logistically, I cannot imagine
Speaker 1: that the costs of investing in that kind of technology
Speaker 1: apparatus is not being passed down to the consumer in
Speaker 1: some way. I don't have any inside knowledge of that.
Speaker 1: I just I have to assume that's the case. You know,
Speaker 1: how it's now becoming clear how much retailers lied about
Speaker 1: retail theft and how much it was hurting their stores,
Speaker 1: and I think that they did that to justify really
Speaker 1: cracking down on surveillance, really making the shopping experience worse
Speaker 1: for consumers, and being like, well, it's not our fault,
Speaker 1: it's crime. I wonder if there's some aspect of that
Speaker 1: going on here, Like part of me wonders if, for
Speaker 1: whatever reason, Walmart really wants to be investing in this
Speaker 1: kind of surveillance technology and they're using self checkout as
Speaker 1: a way to justify that. It's like, oh, well we
Speaker 1: have self checkout now that increases theft, or go we
Speaker 1: have to have this very involved surveillance technology in all
Speaker 1: of our stores. I just wonder, because it's such a
Speaker 1: huge investment in very serious surveillance technology that I don't
Speaker 1: know how it makes sense to have it otherwise.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really interesting thought. We were doing some
Speaker 2: research for this follow up episode here. One of the
Speaker 2: things I came across was somebody who had worked in
Speaker 2: software building a bunch of this type of surveillance stuff
Speaker 2: that grocery stores big box retailers could use to have
Speaker 2: like scanners and AI trackers following people around in the
Speaker 2: store to try to reduce theft. And they made the
Speaker 2: exact same point. This was a person who had built
Speaker 2: those technologies who said that, like all of them didn't work.
Speaker 2: We're janky, and we're extremely expensive and not justified by
Speaker 2: the cost. Like not according to them, it was not
Speaker 2: even close. So the idea that the reason retailers are
Speaker 2: pushing for this stuff is to justify increase surveillance. We
Speaker 2: see examples all the time of people in positions of
Speaker 2: power making decisions that cost them money just so they
Speaker 2: can like maintain control. Right, Like, just last week we
Speaker 2: were talking about Annimintur shuddering Pitchfork, even though it was profitable,
Speaker 2: because there was like rumblings of unionization, right like killing
Speaker 2: a powerful, well liked brand just to like maintain that control.
Speaker 2: And so spending a bunch of money on surveillance equipment
Speaker 2: even though it doesn't pay back in money, the owner
Speaker 2: gets to like feel that level of control.
Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break at our back.
Speaker 1: Something about self checkout automatically to me, feels like a
Speaker 1: dystopian surveillance situation where we're getting away from what makes
Speaker 1: us humans and relying more on technology. And like part
Speaker 1: of that for me was the assumption that self checkouts
Speaker 1: are making us lonelier or like has something to do
Speaker 1: with the praying threads of.
Speaker 3: Society and humanity.
Speaker 1: That was an assumption that I made, not based on
Speaker 1: any kind of facts or research or reading that I'd
Speaker 1: done about it. It just to me stood to reason
Speaker 1: that if we are in a loneliness epidemic, especially for
Speaker 1: older folks, which the Search in General released a report
Speaker 1: about this, the threat of social isolation recently, and it
Speaker 1: is a damning report. If that is happening, then certainly
Speaker 1: the rise of technology like self checkout is making it worse.
Speaker 1: So is that actually the case, Well, you tell me.
Speaker 1: I read this report in the Los Angeles Times that
Speaker 1: suggests that the US is in the middle of this
Speaker 1: loneliness and isolation epidemic and that self checkouts are actually.
Speaker 3: Worse in the situation. The Times report talks about the.
Speaker 1: Value of warm, low stakes relationships like that between a
Speaker 1: shopper and a cashier, especially for older people. They spoke
Speaker 1: to University of Michigan psychology professor Tony Antanushi, who said
Speaker 1: that these kinds of connections are a critical tool for
Speaker 1: maintaining emotional wellbeing later in life as social circles shrink,
Speaker 1: so some supermarkets have actually taken intentional steps to use
Speaker 1: the shopping experience at their store to combat loneliness through
Speaker 1: chatty lines. Jumbo, a grocery store chain in the Netherlands,
Speaker 1: has Klatskasa, or the chatty checkout line for shoppers who
Speaker 1: are not in a hurry and actually want to have
Speaker 1: a conversation with the clerk. Jumbo's chief commercial officer explained
Speaker 1: to the Conversation saying, many people, especially the elderly, sometimes
Speaker 1: feel lonely. As a family business and supermarket chain, we're
Speaker 1: the heart of society. Our shops are an important meeting
Speaker 1: place for many people. I mean we want to play
Speaker 1: a role in identifying and reducing loneliness. So the first
Speaker 1: of one of these lanes was so successful that the
Speaker 1: family owned company started rolling out these chatty slow checkout
Speaker 1: lanes in two hundred of its stores.
Speaker 3: Not only were customers really.
Speaker 1: Responding positively to it, but this this situation also apparently
Speaker 1: appealed to the employees. They are trained to recognize signs
Speaker 1: of loneliness and come up with local initiatives to combat
Speaker 1: social isolation. The lanes weren't just big with older folks,
Speaker 1: but all shoppers of all ages seem to really get
Speaker 1: a kick out of them. So this is nice, and
Speaker 1: it sounds like it's working, and it sounds like it's
Speaker 1: a needed thing, and I really like hats off to
Speaker 1: Jumbo for starting with initiatives.
Speaker 3: But I just don't know if a.
Speaker 1: Retail cashier should be shouldering the burden of staving off
Speaker 1: what sounds like a real crisis of loneliness for people.
Speaker 1: In this Surgeon General's report on loneliness that I mentioned,
Speaker 1: the search in General lays out this like six point
Speaker 1: plan for combating loneliness, and it's things like investing more
Speaker 1: volunteer organizations or religious groups, or policies around public trains
Speaker 1: and or education, or physical spaces like parks and green
Speaker 1: spaces and library so like more robust public infrastructure. Yes,
Speaker 1: I love public infrastructure. However, here in the US, I
Speaker 1: don't think that like a polite chatty clerk can really
Speaker 1: take the place of meaningful investment in these kinds of
Speaker 1: social goods. Like I almost be like, I like what
Speaker 1: they're doing with these chatty lanes, and it does seem
Speaker 1: like it's helping.
Speaker 3: So I don't want to make it seem like I'm
Speaker 3: pooh poohing that.
Speaker 1: But I think that it's a lot to ask of
Speaker 1: a retail cashier who is like their job is to
Speaker 1: ring you up and be polite.
Speaker 3: I don't know that we should.
Speaker 1: Be shouldering those folks with this burden of easing something
Speaker 1: that clearly is related to a fraying social goods infrastructure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have a lot of thoughts about this. One
Speaker 2: of them is that that Jumbo chain sounds really cool.
Speaker 2: I would love to go check out one of their
Speaker 2: chatty lines next time I'm in the Netherlands. Whenever that
Speaker 2: might happen, I'm definitely gonna do it. It sounds like
Speaker 2: a really nice thing that that grocery store chain has
Speaker 2: chosen to do for its community. That feels like the
Speaker 2: sort of I don't know, Jimmy Dean movie feel good
Speaker 2: capitalism story that if only the world were more like that,
Speaker 2: things would be a lot better. Maybe it is like
Speaker 2: that in the Netherlands, I don't know, But it's not
Speaker 2: like that here in the US, right, Like, I think
Speaker 2: there are a lot of differences. For one thing, those
Speaker 2: cashiers in the Netherlands, they have subsidized healthcare, they have
Speaker 2: just a bunch of other social safety net things. They
Speaker 2: probably have a much higher salary I have to assume
Speaker 2: than their counterparts here in the US. I was looking
Speaker 2: into what cashiers make in the US, and like, you know,
Speaker 2: I used to work hourly wage jobs, but it's been
Speaker 2: a while and people are making ten dollars an hour,
Speaker 2: right like that, that's just like not a lot of money.
Speaker 2: And then to expect those people to shoulder this burden
Speaker 2: like you were talking about of chatting with strangers in
Speaker 2: making elderly folks feel connected, like, those are really virtuous
Speaker 2: things to do. But for somebody who's working like three
Speaker 2: jobs sixty hours a week to like scrape by, that
Speaker 2: feels like it's really asking a lot. And that context
Speaker 2: of what is the experience like for that employee that cashier,
Speaker 2: I feel gets left out of a lot of these
Speaker 2: arguments that we saw about like oh, a self checkouts
Speaker 2: are making us all isolated. We should have more like
Speaker 2: friendly chit chats with the cashier who's checking us out.
Speaker 2: You know, I've definitely had experiences in my life where
Speaker 2: I had like a nice, warm connection with a cashier
Speaker 2: who is checking me out, But just as often I've
Speaker 2: had the experience of, like, Wow, this person is really
Speaker 2: tired and they're not giving me the time of day,
Speaker 2: and I'm not gonna take it personally, but I'm also
Speaker 2: like not getting a lot of fuzzies out of this interaction.
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna get my things and get out of here.
Speaker 1: Well, that's another thing is that I have definitely with
Speaker 1: my own eyes witnessed retail clerks take the time to
Speaker 1: really connect with people who are shopping in a way
Speaker 1: that I'm like amazed by. And so I don't want
Speaker 1: to make it seem like there are no retail cashiers
Speaker 1: who are doing that, because I know that there are.
Speaker 1: My mom is a big shopper, and I know that
Speaker 1: a lot of times that shopping is being done out
Speaker 1: of a place of wanting a warm connection. And so
Speaker 1: she's clearly getting a warm connection, and that's what she's
Speaker 1: going in force. It's really not about the item that
Speaker 1: she's buying. But like you said, if you're a retail casher,
Speaker 1: you probably have your own struggles with loneliness, and so like,
Speaker 1: are we just like passing down this burden from cashier
Speaker 1: to cash here, to cash here to cashier. And you know,
Speaker 1: if we really as a country cared about this loneliness epidemic,
Speaker 1: which it seems like we're saying that we do because
Speaker 1: a search in general put out a.
Speaker 3: Report on it.
Speaker 1: It's clear what we should be putting our investment in energy, right,
Speaker 1: public good and social good stuff like parks and libraries
Speaker 1: and community centers and all of that. Like it just
Speaker 1: feels like under capitalism, it is like, well, we should
Speaker 1: have parks and libraries for older folks. Best we can
Speaker 1: do is an underpaid barista who is nice to them,
Speaker 1: Like that's that's all we got to offer, And it's
Speaker 1: just so sad, like we like, it doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be that way, but that's.
Speaker 3: How it is. That's how it feels to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, an underpaid barista and half a million dollars in
Speaker 2: surveillance technology.
Speaker 3: Yeah, will that helped?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Like what if we invested in the barista?
Speaker 1: And this also bumps up around this, like popping online
Speaker 1: discourse around chatting and retail employees. I'm chatty by nature.
Speaker 1: I have a podcast, so like I love to chat
Speaker 1: somebody up and you could give you if you were
Speaker 1: if we're having a face to face, I'm asking how
Speaker 1: your day was.
Speaker 3: I want some details when we were in Berlin that time.
Speaker 1: They are a less chatty people, and I asked that
Speaker 1: barista how his day was going.
Speaker 3: What I'm a fake? He looked at me like I
Speaker 3: had just insulted his mom.
Speaker 2: God, yeah, they really value efficiency over there, and I
Speaker 2: loved it. I felt like by the end of the trip,
Speaker 2: I finally had it down where I could like perfectly
Speaker 2: execute telling the barista my order, receiving it, paying and
Speaker 2: leaving in the most efficient way possible. And in that moment,
Speaker 2: I felt like a small piece of pride, I guess
Speaker 2: for like making it work in the German retail context.
Speaker 1: So it does sound like, you know, we're talking about
Speaker 1: how chatting with the retail clerk it's good for folks
Speaker 1: who are experiencing social isolation, but it does sound like
Speaker 1: not everybody wants to have a chat with retail clerks. Recently,
Speaker 1: writer Bailey Hird, who also worked as a server, tweeted,
Speaker 1: sorry if this is rude or whatever, but I really
Speaker 1: hate people who refuse to endure even the tiniest bits
Speaker 1: of small talk. Can't tell you how many times I've
Speaker 1: walked up to a table and said, how are you
Speaker 1: doing today, only to be met with complete silence and
Speaker 1: a blank stare. And that's I mean like it kind
Speaker 1: of gets into a thing of like people are just
Speaker 1: trying to do their job and certainly, you know, you
Speaker 1: get from corporate or whatever like oh you're you're meant
Speaker 1: to be chatty in this way or chatty in that way.
Speaker 1: I used to work for a when I was in college,
Speaker 1: I worked for a clothing retailer. I don't want to
Speaker 1: say which one because I I mean, I was very young,
Speaker 1: but I quit in a very unprofessional way. But when
Speaker 1: they they for whatever reason, they gave us this guidance
Speaker 1: that when you were letting somebody into a dressing room
Speaker 1: to try on a bra or underwear or a cameousol
Speaker 1: like some sort of intimate item, they wanted you to
Speaker 1: share a secret with them. And so that was like
Speaker 1: the guidance that we got. And so you you were
Speaker 1: you were meant to be like oh, like an example
Speaker 1: they gave was, oh, you're you're trying on this bra.
Speaker 3: I love that bra.
Speaker 1: I'm wearing it right now, Like that would be the
Speaker 1: kind of like secret they wanted you to share.
Speaker 2: What this is wild share a secret?
Speaker 1: I always wondered if somebody was like, oh let me
Speaker 1: you want to need a fitting room?
Speaker 3: Yeah, here you go.
Speaker 1: You know, I once hit a guy while I was
Speaker 1: driving and I just kept going.
Speaker 3: I didn't even stop. We enjoy your items.
Speaker 1: So what I'm saying is like retail clerks and people
Speaker 1: who are working in the service industry, they're like often
Speaker 1: given guidance from corporate to like be chatting in a
Speaker 1: specific way.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I do feel like we have this situation where people
Speaker 1: are complaining about this and these people are just trying
Speaker 1: to do their jobs, I guess is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Like at Trader Joe's, which as far as I know,
Speaker 1: Trader Joe's does not do self checkout, Like none of
Speaker 1: the Trader Jows have ever.
Speaker 2: Been has had self checkout, and I was thinking about them.
Speaker 2: I think Trader Joe's is like the anti self checkout.
Speaker 1: Yes, and they actually it sounds like maybe they want
Speaker 1: their cashiers to be like a little more chatty with
Speaker 1: you than other places. I saw this TikTok that I
Speaker 1: hated where somebody was bemoaning the fact that to shop
Speaker 1: at Trader Joe's they feel like they have to do
Speaker 1: emotional labor of chatting with the cashier to buy their groceries.
Speaker 3: But here's the.
Speaker 1: Thing, if you are someone who is shopping, they're not
Speaker 1: the one doing emotional labor in that situation. The person
Speaker 1: who is required by corporate or their boss to like
Speaker 1: be polite and chatty with you, even if they don't
Speaker 1: feel like it to ring you up, that is the
Speaker 1: person doing emotional labor, not you. You're not doing that
Speaker 1: all of us to say, I think that the question
Speaker 1: of what we get and what we lose through the
Speaker 1: chattiness and politeness of a retail person is a whole
Speaker 1: separate thing.
Speaker 3: When technology comes into the conversation. It was easy for
Speaker 3: me to.
Speaker 1: Assume, like automatically, when you're doing self checkout, you're losing
Speaker 1: this human connection and that's bad. But from doing this research,
Speaker 1: I do think that is a little more complex than that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. Should we get into the listener feedback?
Speaker 2: Let's do it all right? Well, I'll just start reading then.
Speaker 2: So this one came.
Speaker 1: From Hey, bridget here, just an fyi that this listener
Speaker 1: wanted to be anonymous, so we are bleeping that listener's name.
Speaker 1: In case you're wondering why there are bleeps, that's.
Speaker 2: Why, Hi, Mike and Bridge. Wow, this issue just evokes
Speaker 2: strong feelings. I've never felt the desire to comment on
Speaker 2: something before that. Self checkouts is what brings me to comment.
Speaker 2: I'd be curious to see if other small things like
Speaker 2: this get more comments. I like self checkouts mostly because
Speaker 2: I get to do my own bagging. Cashiers and baggers
Speaker 2: aren't paid enough to make sure my bread doesn't get squished.
Speaker 2: My favorite method is what Meyjure does. That's a brand
Speaker 2: in the Midwest. The store. They have a phone app
Speaker 2: where I can scan and bag as I grab things.
Speaker 2: Then I just zip through the payment. It would be
Speaker 2: even better if I could pay through the app, but
Speaker 2: the last they probably won't do that because of shoplifting. Disclaimer,
Speaker 2: I think shoplifting is a consequence of poverty, and don't
Speaker 2: blame shoplifters. Do what you gotta do. I'm a stickler
Speaker 2: for data interpretation, so I have some thoughts about the
Speaker 2: stats from the last episode. Sixty seven percent of people
Speaker 2: have experienced the failure at self checkouts. What is the
Speaker 2: percentage failure for human checkouts? Also, sixty seven percent represents
Speaker 2: the percentage of people who have experienced an event. What's
Speaker 2: the failure rate per transaction? Given then, a majority of
Speaker 2: people like self checkouts I would posit that fit your
Speaker 2: rate per transaction is low speculation. I think the part
Speaker 2: that fails the most is the weight sensor that is
Speaker 2: making sure you bag items. The stores that I shot
Speaker 2: at don't use this sensor, and it's much more smoothe
Speaker 2: I don't know why they care. You've already scanned the item,
Speaker 2: so you can't steal it.
Speaker 3: That's such a good point.
Speaker 2: It is a good point. Yeah, right, you've already scanned it,
Speaker 2: you can't steal it.
Speaker 1: So as a data practitioner, are you a data scientist
Speaker 1: or a data practitioner? Because this is like I know,
Speaker 1: Mike asked somebody who works at data. You probably were like,
Speaker 1: great questions, thank you for seeing the data like I do,
Speaker 1: which is precisely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. I mean, is you know, quite reasonably
Speaker 2: focused on like what is the denominator here? What's the
Speaker 2: failure rate per transaction? I think I made you know
Speaker 2: a similar point last time that sixty seven percent of
Speaker 2: people said they've experienced a failure with self checkout. I've
Speaker 2: experienced a failure with like everything, my computer, my phone,
Speaker 2: my car, my relationship, my cat, Like everything fails at
Speaker 2: subpoint or an other, Right, But I'm not gonna throw
Speaker 2: it out.
Speaker 3: You are absolutely correct.
Speaker 1: It is the little things that I think people feel
Speaker 1: the most strongly and passionately about. So if folks are listening,
Speaker 1: if you're like, oh, here's another little tech thing that
Speaker 1: we should talk about in society that we all deal with,
Speaker 1: and what are your thoughts on it? That would be
Speaker 1: a great segment. So if folks have those, please write,
Speaker 1: and I want to hear them. Who knew that these
Speaker 1: little things would be such a sticking point for folks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also satisfying to talk about because I do
Speaker 2: have strong feelings, but I don't have like identity connected
Speaker 2: to it. So it feels possible to talk about them
Speaker 2: and like hear new perspectives and change my mind in
Speaker 2: a way that doesn't it doesn't always feel that way
Speaker 2: about some other issues where there's disagreement. So it concludes
Speaker 2: it's the small things, isn't it?
Speaker 3: It sure is?
Speaker 2: Okay. So the next email is from Phil Jones high
Speaker 2: Bridget I've got a lot to say on this subject.
Speaker 2: The first and foremost, You're right, fuck those machines. For
Speaker 2: whatever added context this might provide. I live in gotteno
Speaker 2: Quebec on the border with Ottawa, Ontario, the nation's capital.
Speaker 2: My general stance is that those machines are worse for everyone.
Speaker 2: As you stated, then we've got four bulleted items here.
Speaker 2: Number one slows the customer down is they now have
Speaker 2: to operate the checkout, a specialized job people have long
Speaker 2: been hired and trained for. There are quirks to the
Speaker 2: machine that only a seasoned operator knows how to maneuver around.
Speaker 2: There are special items that need to be dealt with
Speaker 2: differently than standard barcode items. It's a mess. Number two
Speaker 2: takes away a job from cashiers who now stand around
Speaker 2: and monitor a bank of machines that took their job.
Speaker 2: The cashier was promoted to managing a row of insulting
Speaker 2: facsimiles of their former role. Number three it removes a
Speaker 2: bagger job entirely, as that's now on the customer. Number
Speaker 2: four it makes scamming the store that much easier, So
Speaker 2: it's worse for loss prevention. The classics stake for the
Speaker 2: price of bananas scam. Ultimately, the machines continue to degrade
Speaker 2: interpersonal connections and community. We might see the same cashiers
Speaker 2: every week at our local grocery store or pharmacy, and
Speaker 2: whether we like them or not not recognize that we're
Speaker 2: part of the same world and need to get along
Speaker 2: to meet her own needs. These machines put yet another
Speaker 2: barrier between us and our fellow humans. So let's take
Speaker 2: a break there, because Phil has laid out a lot
Speaker 2: for us.
Speaker 3: More.
Speaker 4: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.
Speaker 1: First of all, Phil, keep emailing me, because you can
Speaker 1: write an email the way that this was so eloquently
Speaker 1: laid out. I'm like, bulleted, this is the kind of
Speaker 1: email that I really appreciate. Please keep emailing me. Phil's
Speaker 1: email kind of gets at that tension that I feel
Speaker 1: right that it does feel like for whatever reason, self
Speaker 1: checkout is indicative of some kind of a fraying of
Speaker 1: a social fabric that you know, like, like one of
Speaker 1: the concepts I was reading about when I was preparing
Speaker 1: for this episode is this concept of a frictionless society
Speaker 1: that it's automatically better if you're not having to deal
Speaker 1: with the friction that sometimes comes with navigating another human.
Speaker 1: That you order your groceries online and do curbside pickup.
Speaker 1: You order Uber Eat and they leave it at your door.
Speaker 1: You don't even have to like talk to them. And
Speaker 1: questioning the assumption that this is actually a better, more
Speaker 1: cohesive society, because the point of being in a society
Speaker 1: is navigating other humans and sometimes we don't like it,
Speaker 1: but like that society. I think that Phill's email really
Speaker 1: really gets at the tension that I feel around that
Speaker 1: of like, well, is this better? Is a society where
Speaker 1: I'm dealing with humans and navigating the intricacies of that daily,
Speaker 1: Is that automatically a better society or a more efficient society?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think Phil definitely has a very dystopian view
Speaker 2: of the impact of these machines, Like we're all deep
Speaker 2: in the sub basement of Metropolis, gloomily scanning our items.
Speaker 2: They are good questions and it's if nothing else, this
Speaker 2: is useful for us to like step back and think about,
Speaker 2: like what does it mean to be connected to familiar
Speaker 2: strangers in our community and forced transactions in the checkout
Speaker 2: lane with the cashier. What is the value of those
Speaker 2: Like maybe they're both good and bad. So that was
Speaker 2: Phil's dystopian take on why those machines should be fucked. However,
Speaker 2: Phil goes on to list a few scenarios where he
Speaker 2: does use the machines. Another three points number one at
Speaker 2: Shopper's drug Mark slash Pharma Pricks, I think CBS. Depending
Speaker 2: on the location, there's usually one actual cashier in a
Speaker 2: bank of machines. If I'm only ever buying a couple
Speaker 2: of things, it is more discreet. For the more personal purchases,
Speaker 2: and the one I frequent the most, there is usually,
Speaker 2: like uncannily often an elderly person buying multiple six packs
Speaker 2: of Pepsi bottles. There's the Quebec context for you. I
Speaker 2: didn't know they drank a lot of Pepsi and Quebec.
Speaker 2: It's just faster to use the machines. Second bulleted item
Speaker 2: from Phil. At Costco, I'm basically only ever buying a
Speaker 2: handful of things that are cheaper and used at Scale.
Speaker 2: I live with my partner, no kids. We don't need
Speaker 2: most things in bulk. Waiting in a ten person long
Speaker 2: line with overflowing jumbo sized carts is entirely unnecessary. At Costco,
Speaker 2: the machines are basically the express line. It's overseen by
Speaker 2: as many as four people for six machines, or at
Speaker 2: least a dozen cashier lines with both a cashier and
Speaker 2: a bagger. No jobs are being lost here. This is
Speaker 2: possibly the ideal situation for the machines.
Speaker 1: So I don't have a Costco membership. I would die
Speaker 1: of happiness to have one. Phil is just confirming my
Speaker 1: widely held belief that Costco is my version of heaven
Speaker 1: and I want to go there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think this also re emphasizes the connection
Speaker 2: between how the workers are treated and the customer experience
Speaker 2: that people get to have when they go to this store. Right,
Speaker 2: Like we talked about that Dutch store where because it's
Speaker 2: in the Netherlands, you know, there is a social safety net.
Speaker 2: They're providing a really good experience for the customers, and
Speaker 2: the management is not trying to nickel and dime every
Speaker 2: like minute and action of the employees time. Instead, they're
Speaker 2: allowing the employees to like and not just allowing, but
Speaker 2: encouraging and facilitating the employees that spend some time like
Speaker 2: caring for the customers. Costco is another company that treats
Speaker 2: its workers pretty well. And then at the other end
Speaker 2: of the spectrum we have like Dollar General, which is
Speaker 2: notorious for treating its workers about as bad as you
Speaker 2: can legally treat a person, and they were just like
Speaker 2: all in for the self checkout where they would have,
Speaker 2: you know, one or two people in the store managing
Speaker 2: the entire store all aspects of the operations, from like
Speaker 2: managing to stocking the shelves, to receiving deliveries, to mopping
Speaker 2: the floors to fixing the self checkout machines when they
Speaker 2: invariably like need to be cleared. These things are super related.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think there is definitely some connection between
Speaker 1: how the like. I mean, it's just decisions being made
Speaker 1: at the corporate level trickling down to the experience that us,
Speaker 1: both as humans who are shopping and humans who are
Speaker 1: checking people out, are having.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like what is valued? Phil goes on, I've experienced
Speaker 2: failure at any and all stores I've used. The machines
Speaker 2: at grocery stores are particularly bad because of the complex
Speaker 2: set of items. I think the machines are optimal at
Speaker 2: five or fewer bar coded items. Beyond that, a trained
Speaker 2: human is far more efficient. Checking out a grocery store
Speaker 2: is a two person operation. That's why there are baggers
Speaker 2: at subourbon stores. At least I find they're mercifully absent
Speaker 2: in urban stores. I prefer to bag my own groceries,
Speaker 2: but I can only do that efficiently because someone else
Speaker 2: is handling the entirely separate process of scanning items and
Speaker 2: handling exceptions. The cashier and I are a team. I
Speaker 2: used to work in the retail tech space against this
Speaker 2: phil as part of an internal communication SaaS company. When
Speaker 2: researching integrating advanced detail hardware, I found a trove of
Speaker 2: dystopian tracking devices, from camera setups to heat mapware customers
Speaker 2: stop in a store for optimizing product positioning, to tracking
Speaker 2: MAC addresses of people on the street. From pinpoint advertising
Speaker 2: the shelves with pressure sensors to present video advertisements. Shit,
Speaker 2: that's not even worth implementing or having developed in the
Speaker 2: first place, as the cost is so much higher than
Speaker 2: the return. Automated checkout machines are the one ubiquitous piece
Speaker 2: that made it to the mainstream, the most frictionless, right,
Speaker 2: the most frictionless version of these is indeed the most dystopian.
Speaker 2: The Amazon Go model, where you're individually tracked throughout the store,
Speaker 2: intercharge for all the items once you leave the store easy,
Speaker 2: but nightmarishly removed from human interaction and giving over so
Speaker 2: much personal data to Amazon. No thanks, sorry for the
Speaker 2: long email, Thanks for the awesome show.
Speaker 1: Cheers, film that is terrifying, and I think that the
Speaker 1: cost of some of this technology it must be astronomical,
Speaker 1: and I can't imagine it's worth it. And so if
Speaker 1: this feels to me like it is investing seeing in
Speaker 1: surveillance tech for surveillance tech's sake.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So thanks Phil for writing in, because that was
Speaker 2: a pretty insightful email with some specialized knowledge. Let me
Speaker 2: go on. This one comes from Susan Bridget. I think
Speaker 2: you're gonna like this, Bridget. Mike. I dislike self checkout
Speaker 2: immensely and only use it if forced to. For example,
Speaker 2: if the line for a person is really long and
Speaker 2: I only have one item that is maybe once every
Speaker 2: year or two. My goal is to never use it.
Speaker 2: I think it's impersonal, frustrating, and job stealing. When I
Speaker 2: lived in Boston, the stopping shop near me had these
Speaker 2: wants you could take with you as you shopped and
Speaker 2: bag your groceries in your cart. You just had to
Speaker 2: pay on the way out. I didn't mind those, and
Speaker 2: the technology seemed more reliable than the typical self checkout.
Speaker 2: You paid a cashier, but you didn't have to put
Speaker 2: your groceries on a belt. Occasionally they would randomly flag
Speaker 2: you for a spot check of your items. I guess
Speaker 2: to prevent theft. After they scanned a few items, you
Speaker 2: were on your way. I actually liked that system way
Speaker 2: better than self checkout. Susan goes on to thank us
Speaker 2: for the episode about Claudine Gay. She brings up some
Speaker 2: really good points about that that it's not a coincidence
Speaker 2: that all of the Ivy League college presidents called it
Speaker 2: testified before Congress were women. It's not a coincidence that
Speaker 2: two of the three women are now gone from their
Speaker 2: leadership roles. It's not a coincidence that the prime target
Speaker 2: for the far rights campaign was a highly qualified black woman.
Speaker 2: There are so many mediocre white men holding positions of
Speaker 2: leadership that are never targeted. Yeah, so thanks Susan for
Speaker 2: the nice email.
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for listening, Susan, and I do like this email.
Speaker 1: It kind of I like it because it affirms my
Speaker 1: worldview surprisingly enough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting that you know. Susan is clear
Speaker 2: that she dislikes them the self checkout immensely, but then
Speaker 2: goes on to describe this other less oppressive system of
Speaker 2: checking oneself out that was less objectionable. Right, so it's
Speaker 2: I do have to wonder how much of this people's
Speaker 2: visceral reaction against self checkout is just the sort of
Speaker 2: jankiness of the machines and the frustration of standing there
Speaker 2: while it's like furiously beeping at you and telling you
Speaker 2: that you've done something wrong. That like maddening, frustrating feeling.
Speaker 1: I think I have a special sensitivity to machines beeping
Speaker 1: at me. Part of me wonders if my feelings on
Speaker 1: self checkout are because I am the befuddled person who
Speaker 1: can't figure it out and the machine is beeping and
Speaker 1: everybody's looking and I'm like having an issue.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's just software, right, and it's one one
Speaker 2: can master it.
Speaker 3: I'll get there one day.
Speaker 2: Okay, here's our final email from Emily. Emily brought up
Speaker 2: some really good points. I've been working as a cashier
Speaker 2: at a grocery store since twenty twenty and have been
Speaker 2: on the front lines of the self checkout debate, mostly
Speaker 2: from customers complaining to me, a person with no power
Speaker 2: over the addition of self checkout machines at our store,
Speaker 2: about how hated they are and that they're taking my job. Well.
Speaker 2: I can certainly see where they concern about my job
Speaker 2: security comes from, at least in my personal experience, the
Speaker 2: inclusion of self checkout machines has actually made my job
Speaker 2: easier and more secure. Pretty much every member of my
Speaker 2: team has suffered some sort of checking related injury, be
Speaker 2: it bone spurs, carpal tunnel, or tennis elbow from the
Speaker 2: repetitive motions of scanning items with self checkout. Rather than
Speaker 2: having to take unpaid time off work, since as usually
Speaker 2: starts before you've worked enough hours to get paid time off,
Speaker 2: we can instead work the self checkout machines, which require
Speaker 2: less manual labor and therefore less stress on work related injuries.
Speaker 2: As for the machines taking our jobs, I'm a little
Speaker 2: more split on the truth of this. On one hand,
Speaker 2: I don't want to go to bat for any corporations
Speaker 2: looking to raise profits by cutting labor costs. But on
Speaker 2: the other as someone who was an essential worker during
Speaker 2: the initial COVID lockdown and the ensuing spikes and variations,
Speaker 2: I can tell you it is a thankless job, and
Speaker 2: I don't regrudge anyone who quits to move on to
Speaker 2: less people facing work. The front end has the highest
Speaker 2: turnover rate of any department at my store. Since having
Speaker 2: self checkout machines, I at least do not have to
Speaker 2: deal with customers can plaining to me about understaffing and
Speaker 2: long lines. Obviously, I'm just one person with one experience,
Speaker 2: but I figured i'd give my point of view since
Speaker 2: it became such a heated topic. Love the show and
Speaker 2: hope you're all doing well. Thanks for your time, Emily.
Speaker 1: Emily, thank you so much for this email, because I
Speaker 1: really wanted to get the perspective of somebody who currently
Speaker 1: works retail. I did not even think about the repetitive
Speaker 1: motion of scanning out people's items and what that might
Speaker 1: do to someone's body, and so the alternative of being like, well,
Speaker 1: you don't have to take time off and make no money,
Speaker 1: you can do the self checkout, which is a lot
Speaker 1: less physically.
Speaker 3: Demanding on you.
Speaker 1: I didn't even think about that as a potential reason
Speaker 1: why self checkout might be better in retail establishments, and
Speaker 1: so I'm really thankful for that perspective. Also, I didn't
Speaker 1: think about this either, but it makes so much sense
Speaker 1: that people who have issues with self checkout complaining to
Speaker 1: the retail cashier who like she's like, oh well, I
Speaker 1: actually made the decision to put that to put that
Speaker 1: in the store. Thanks for letting me know. Oh, I'll
Speaker 1: take it out. Like what do people think that? Like
Speaker 1: that's how the decisions get made. Like, even if you
Speaker 1: have issues with self checkout like I do, you don't
Speaker 1: need like complaining to the retail cashier who has who
Speaker 1: did not make the decision to put that there is
Speaker 1: not the proper way to do that.
Speaker 3: Complain on your podcast people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and not just complaining to this cashier who sounds
Speaker 2: like didn't really want to hear it, but also framing
Speaker 2: it as like and I'm complaining because I really care
Speaker 2: about protecting your job, Like, get over yourself. You don't
Speaker 2: care about this person's job. If you cared, you would
Speaker 2: like say something nice to them or like tell a joke. Uh,
Speaker 2: not just like complain at them about how you are inconvenienced.
Speaker 1: I'm complaining at you for your benefit, don't you see this?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And also like it just I mean it also kind
Speaker 1: of goes back to the conversation about retail establishments and loneliness,
Speaker 1: Like it just confirms to me that putting the burden
Speaker 1: on retail cashiers to stave off the loneliness epidemic when
Speaker 1: Emily is saying that the people the kind of experience
Speaker 1: that people are having working at the front end like
Speaker 1: this are not really that great and that people are
Speaker 1: rude and people, you know, maybe it's not something that
Speaker 1: people will want to would have a lot of warm
Speaker 1: fuzzies about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that aspect really like stuck with me. I've been
Speaker 2: thinking about that a lot since we did that episode
Speaker 2: and read these emails. How you know, I personally feel
Speaker 2: like I've you know, the experience of living in a
Speaker 2: city during twenty twenty when COVID disrupted all of our
Speaker 2: lives and we were like trapped inside. It really like
Speaker 2: changed a lot of things that certainly changed me. And
Speaker 2: so one part one thing after this conversation is I've
Speaker 2: just been thinking about how has it changed me? Right? Like,
Speaker 2: maybe I should go through the cash this the like
Speaker 2: human cashier line a little bit more often. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I recently, you know, I think over the weekend, went
Speaker 2: to the grocery store, that same giant that we've been
Speaker 2: talking about all the time, and there is some kind
Speaker 2: of issue happening at the self checkout machines, and the
Speaker 2: line was just like not moving, and so I was like,
Speaker 2: you know what, as a little experiment, I'm going to
Speaker 2: get in the human cashier line. And I did have
Speaker 2: a perfectly nice interaction with the woman checking me out.
Speaker 2: We talked about the fennel I was buying. It was
Speaker 2: a nice interaction. So maybe the self checkout is like
Speaker 2: not even the thing. Maybe we just like need to
Speaker 2: treat each other a little better.
Speaker 3: Oh, I think that's right.
Speaker 1: Like the self checkout can be like an internal test
Speaker 1: of how we're doing, how well or how badly we're
Speaker 1: connecting and thinking about our fellow human.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. I mean a lot of time when
Speaker 2: I'm feeling particularly low or stressed or angry or something,
Speaker 2: those are the times when I just want to head
Speaker 2: down go into the self checkout line. And yeah, maybe
Speaker 2: that can be a little like signal to me to
Speaker 2: be a little bit more mindful of my mood and
Speaker 2: maybe try to change it by i don't know, being
Speaker 2: kind to somebody or something.
Speaker 1: Oh, I have to do that with intention when I'm
Speaker 1: in that place where everything is going wrong and I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm about to lash out. I it's like
Speaker 1: a personal challenge with myself to like go do something
Speaker 1: nice for a stranger and see if that reconnects, like
Speaker 1: reconnects you, recalibrates, you ground you. Like it's like a
Speaker 1: personal challenge because otherwise I just know myself and I
Speaker 1: can really spin out and it's like, oh, the reason
Speaker 1: that this work thing didn't go well if this person
Speaker 1: who had nothing to do with it, I mean take.
Speaker 3: My anger around on them.
Speaker 1: Like so it's it's like a little a little challenge
Speaker 1: that I have to myself to sort of reconnect and
Speaker 1: stay grounded. And then also just like stay I just
Speaker 1: try to stay grateful and checked in to the fact
Speaker 1: that we're all sharing space together, sharing this world together,
Speaker 1: and like it's comes with annoyances and handcuffs, but at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, like.
Speaker 3: What a gift.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, And you know, maybe we have to
Speaker 2: have three or four mundane, draining interactions to be able
Speaker 2: to have that one good one that like changes our mood,
Speaker 2: spends it more positive and gives us those those warm
Speaker 2: fuzzies with the stranger at the store. All right, so
Speaker 2: thanks again for writing in. Getting this kind of listener
Speaker 2: feedback is amazing, feels really good, and bridget we still
Speaker 2: need to do that experiment where we go to these
Speaker 2: stores and like actually compare, although it feels a little
Speaker 2: less charged now.
Speaker 3: Oh.
Speaker 1: When when we were qaing the episode, I was like
Speaker 1: getting getting my shoes on.
Speaker 3: I was like, let's do this, but we're still gonna
Speaker 3: do it.
Speaker 1: Details to come, and as I said, I want to
Speaker 1: start really untacking other low stakes tech stuff. One that
Speaker 1: I might have is QR code menus. Maybe that'll be
Speaker 1: next because I have a lot of feelings about QR
Speaker 1: code menus and if you do too, maybe start percolating
Speaker 1: on that. But yeah, thanks for listening and thanks for
Speaker 1: sharing your feedback with us and Mike. I guess I'll
Speaker 1: see you at the grocery store.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll see you there away from the self checkout.
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or
Speaker 1: just want to say hi, You can reach us at
Speaker 1: Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tenggody dot com.
Speaker 3: There Are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: Was created by me Bridget tod It's a production of
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and an Unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.
Speaker 1: Tarry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almato
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Todd. If
Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review.
Speaker 4: Us on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.