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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridge Todd, and this

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Speaker 1: is there are No Girls on the Internet. Okay, So, Mike,

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Speaker 1: as you know, in our last news roundups, you and

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Speaker 1: I got a little bit heated about our respective thoughts

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Speaker 1: on so self checkout kiosks in retail stores. I was surprised.

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Speaker 1: I thought, certainly everybody hates these things as much as

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Speaker 1: I do. I was surprised to find that was not

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Speaker 1: the case. You had a different position. So my position

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Speaker 1: was that those self checkout kiosks in Target, Walmart, grocery stores,

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Speaker 1: whatever they generally need to involve a human to work properly.

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Speaker 1: I don't think they're that much more efficient or that

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Speaker 1: much more fast. And I also didn't think the old

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Speaker 1: system of just human cashiers was that bad, although I

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Speaker 1: have come to sort of update that position since hearing

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Speaker 1: the feedback that listeners have. So that is my position,

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Speaker 1: and when I sat down to do that episode, I

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Speaker 1: was surprised. If I but you have a completely different position.

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Speaker 1: Would you like to articulate it?

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Speaker 2: Sure, it's not completely different, because your first point that

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Speaker 2: the machines require a human to operate them. We agree

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Speaker 2: on that. I think everyone agrees that a human still

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Speaker 2: needs to be involved even if it's a self checkout. However,

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Speaker 2: we disagree that I think that those self checkout machines

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Speaker 2: or some sort of self checkout system have a place

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Speaker 2: in polite society, and that they are not inherently bad.

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Speaker 2: They are not destroying, you know, the fabric of what

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Speaker 2: makes us who we are. They are just a useful

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Speaker 2: tool that can help us check out with our items.

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Speaker 1: So that is something that I want to get into today,

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Speaker 1: because that episode was just a you know, one story

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Speaker 1: of a larger news round up with other stories, and

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Speaker 1: so I wanted to revisit the issue and highlight a

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Speaker 1: few of the angles that we didn't have time to

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Speaker 1: get into, and also hear from some of you listeners

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Speaker 1: on your thoughts on self checkouts versus human checkouts. The

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Speaker 1: thing that you just said about whether or not self

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Speaker 1: checkout is sort of tearing at the fabric of who

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Speaker 1: we are as people. For whatever reason, I realized, after

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Speaker 1: doing some deep thought that I carry that as like

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Speaker 1: a worldview, and it's a worldview that I carried completely

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Speaker 1: unchallenged until doing this episode. Do you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just automatically assumed, well, certainly this is a sign

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Speaker 1: of society and decay. And doing this episode was the

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Speaker 1: first time that I really had to step back and

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Speaker 1: challenge why that was an automatic assumption on my part.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. I also brought a lot of unchallenged

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Speaker 2: assumptions to this conversation, And I really appreciate the listeners

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Speaker 2: who wrote in because some of them had some really

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Speaker 2: like thoughtful andsightful things to say that I hadn't thought

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Speaker 2: about it. I think you hadn't thought about And one

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Speaker 2: of the other interesting things about this story is, like

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Speaker 2: you said, it was just one story of a news roundup,

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Speaker 2: like kind of a throwaway, but like it turned out

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Speaker 2: that you and I both had pretty strong opinions about it,

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Speaker 2: and listeners did as well. And I think this might

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Speaker 2: be the segment that has received like the most listener

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Speaker 2: feedback of anything that we've ever done of this show.

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Speaker 2: So it's launching it in twenty twenty, which is surprising

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Speaker 2: because it's such a I don't know, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to say, a non issue, but like you know, at

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Speaker 2: the presidential debate stage, they're not talking about self checkout machines.

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Speaker 3: You know they should be.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they should, maybe they'd win some votes, but maybe

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Speaker 2: it's a dangerous issue. I don't know. But it's not

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Speaker 2: like life or death, right. There's something sort of mundane

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Speaker 2: about it. But for some reason, we're we all have

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Speaker 2: a lot to say about it. And I guess I've

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Speaker 2: been thinking about why that is. You know, is it

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Speaker 2: the university universality of it? Like every person can relate

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Speaker 2: to everybody buys groceries. The question of which line do

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Speaker 2: I get in is just one of a thousand tiny

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Speaker 2: decisions that we have to make every day that is

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Speaker 2: like sort of exhausting and like sort of low stakes,

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Speaker 2: but all so like choosing wrong could mean the difference

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Speaker 2: of like ten minutes of standing in line, which is

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Speaker 2: like the worst thing that could possibly happen to a

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Speaker 2: person when they're standing in line. So there's a lot here.

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Speaker 1: I felt so strongly about this issue that I was

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Speaker 1: willing to pull on my boots and go out into

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Speaker 1: the snow at six pm just to prove you wrong

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Speaker 1: about my self. Checkout feelings, and yeah, I completely agree

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Speaker 1: with you. This is We've never gotten this level of

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Speaker 1: passioned feedback from folks of all the episodes that we've done,

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Speaker 1: So let's get into some of these issues that we

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Speaker 1: didn't have time for in that episode. So one big

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Speaker 1: issue that I definitely want to start with is the

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Speaker 1: fact that I didn't know this self checkout aisles are

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Speaker 1: not generally very accessible. I read a story about a

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Speaker 1: woman who was visually impaired and she was trying to

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Speaker 1: use the self checkout, couldn't see the screen well enough

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Speaker 1: to check out, asked for help from the clerk, and

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Speaker 1: the clerk ended up just moving her to the human

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Speaker 1: checkout line instead, and so it set up the system

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Speaker 1: where shoppers with disabilities basically could not use the system

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Speaker 1: at all, which became a lawsuit. The National Federation of

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Speaker 1: the Blind sued Walmart, arguing that the company had violated

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Speaker 1: the Americans with Disabilities Act by excluding blind people from

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Speaker 1: using the service in the way that it was intended

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Speaker 1: independently and privately. So a federal judge in Maryland did

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Speaker 1: end up ruling in Walmart's favor. Walmart maintained that its

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Speaker 1: self checkout system is accessible because staff are trained to help,

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Speaker 1: but if disabled customers have to ask for assistance, not

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Speaker 1: only will the transaction likely take longer, they also lose

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Speaker 1: the option to keep their purchases private. Privacy is a

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Speaker 1: reason why someone might use self checkout over a human checkout.

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Speaker 1: So this benefit of self checkout being able to keep

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Speaker 1: whatever you're buying private is just not being offered to

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Speaker 1: all shoppers equally.

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Speaker 3: This I found so interesting.

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Speaker 1: So the Food Institute spoke to Nicki Shaw, who is

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Speaker 1: the US operations manager at storm Interface, a company that

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Speaker 1: creates assistive technology products at Taco Bell and McDonald's, and

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Speaker 1: Nicky said, having the option to check out independently is

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Speaker 1: unfortunately not available to all customers because of inaccessible point

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Speaker 1: of sale, which is like the machines that do the

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Speaker 1: checking out. By denying some customers this option, what message

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Speaker 1: is this retailer sending to those customers. I think that's

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Speaker 1: such a good point, Like it just sounds like accessibility

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Speaker 1: issues can be a big thing with self checkout if

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Speaker 1: not everybody can use them equally, which it sounds like

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Speaker 1: what's going on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a good point we're thinking about, And

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Speaker 2: you know, I have to wonder if the companies who

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Speaker 2: make these devices and systems we're being more mindful of accessibility,

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Speaker 2: would that lead to devices that work better for everyone, Right,

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Speaker 2: That's often something that is seen in I know, at

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Speaker 2: least like software design, that when you really focus on

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Speaker 2: making things accessible for a particular population that has specific needs,

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Speaker 2: the benefits are much broader than those people and you

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Speaker 2: end up with a nicer, better functioning system for everyone. Absolutely,

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Speaker 2: and also people with disabilities should be able to use them.

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Speaker 2: Interesting to think about what that might look like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I really agree with Nicki Shaw that our

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Speaker 1: retailers saying that only certain shoppers get the benefit of

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Speaker 1: privacy at self checkout, And I think that's a fair

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Speaker 1: question to ask, Like, they probably wouldn't say that because

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Speaker 1: that would have to they would be admitting that they're

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Speaker 1: violating the Americans with Disabilities Act. But it's a fair

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Speaker 1: question to ask, like, some shoppers get the ability to

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Speaker 1: use self checkout to privately check out, and others just don't.

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Speaker 3: Is that what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: So we talked in that episode about how self checkout

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Speaker 1: might increased theft. However we really didn't get into kind

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Speaker 1: of my biggest concern around theft. Like retailer theft is

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Speaker 1: not an issue that I feel deeply strong about. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't like move me. However, when I was talking about theft.

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Speaker 1: I don't think we got into it. One of the

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Speaker 1: things I wanted to talk about is the potential risk

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Speaker 1: to shoppers being accused of theft from using self checkout,

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Speaker 1: even if they didn't actually steal anything or just like

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Speaker 1: scanned or forgot to scan something legitimately by mistake. Right,

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Speaker 1: So the reason why I want to bring this up,

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Speaker 1: I'll say this, take this with a massive grain of salt,

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Speaker 1: because I did see it on TikTok, and like I

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Speaker 1: wasn't able to you know, confirm everything this TikToker said. However,

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Speaker 1: I did see this TikTok from Carrie Jerrigan, who is

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Speaker 1: a criminal defense attorney at a TikTok personality, who warned

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Speaker 1: that she doesn't think that anybody should use self checkout

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Speaker 1: because it is very easy to be accused of retail

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Speaker 1: theft even if you just made a mistake or didn't

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Speaker 1: steal anything at all. Basically, she says that because people

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Speaker 1: who are intentionally stealing from self checkout are really good

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Speaker 1: at it, like they've really sharp, like honed their tactics,

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Speaker 1: and I guess it's difficult to catch at this point.

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Speaker 1: Because of that, retailers have no sympathy for anybody who

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Speaker 1: makes just like a common mistake with their self checkout.

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Speaker 1: Retailers are essentially focusing on people who maybe forgot to

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Speaker 1: scan that big thing of coke that you put under

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Speaker 1: the under the shopping cart or whatever, or people who

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Speaker 1: legitimately did and still anything, and then blaming those people

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Speaker 1: for inventory loss. So this attorney says that retailers will

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Speaker 1: later check their inventory and if they come up short,

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Speaker 1: they will go after people who made a legit transaction

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Speaker 1: of that I am, she says, So they will begin

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Speaker 1: watching hours and hours of video to see the last

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Speaker 1: person who checked out with the Mario Lego set, because

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Speaker 1: they're two Mario Lego sets short, and for some reason

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Speaker 1: they pinpoint that they think you did it. And because

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Speaker 1: of who these big box stores are, they usually have

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Speaker 1: to present very little evidence to get an affidavit for

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Speaker 1: warrant signed. The charges that could land you up to

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Speaker 1: a year in jail get filed, and then you are

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Speaker 1: fighting for your life trying to determine what day you

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Speaker 1: were at Walmart and what all you bought. I know that,

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Speaker 1: like I immediately crumple my receipt up and put it

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Speaker 1: in my pocket of my winter code and then like

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Speaker 1: hang it up in storage forever. So if somebody ever

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Speaker 1: was like, can you provide a receipt for what you

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Speaker 1: bought at Walmart two months ago, the answer would be

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Speaker 1: absolutely not. I would not be able to provide any

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Speaker 1: proof of that transaction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely not. I would I think they were joking

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Speaker 2: if they asked me, right.

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Speaker 1: And so that TikTok was probably the first time that

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Speaker 1: I ever started thinking deeply about self checkout and.

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Speaker 3: Sort of like what it means.

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Speaker 1: I don't have any data on this, but it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be a massive surprise to me to find that that

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Speaker 1: kind of enforcement was not being equally applied. I would

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Speaker 1: have no trouble believing that some people are being looked

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Speaker 1: at a little bit harder when it comes to that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. I also should say, you know, in

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Speaker 1: case folks don't know, like when you do check out

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Speaker 1: with self checkout, like you are being video recorded the

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Speaker 1: entire time, so you know, they definitely can pull back

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Speaker 1: video footage. And I'm sure it probably wouldn't be hard

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Speaker 1: for a target or a Walmart to be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we think this person might have stolen something and then

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Speaker 1: provide video evidence that doesn't really show anything to get

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Speaker 1: that warrant signed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I definitely assume when I'm in Target

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Speaker 2: that I'm being like videotaped all the time, especially at

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Speaker 2: self checkout. I would be so shocked if they were

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Speaker 2: to contact me like weeks or months after leaving. That

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Speaker 2: seems so surprising. I'm curious how often that happens.

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Speaker 1: So I was too, you know, I just saw this

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Speaker 1: one TikTok from a lawyer. I did confirm she is

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Speaker 1: a lawyer, but you know, I was like, this is

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Speaker 1: really happening. So a deep Google search did bring up

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Speaker 1: a few posts of people on legal message boards claiming

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Speaker 1: that they were used of stealing from using self checkout

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Speaker 1: when they hadn't actually sole and that they ended up

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Speaker 1: meeting to deal with like lawyers, fees and like it

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Speaker 1: took lots of time for them to sort it out.

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Speaker 1: So it does kind of seem like this might be

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Speaker 1: an issue that's happening. And ultimately this kind of gets

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Speaker 1: at one of my biggest beefs with self checkout, the

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Speaker 1: implication that me, as the shopper, should be the one

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Speaker 1: who is tasked with its responsibility in making sure that

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Speaker 1: everything is scanned correctly, and like I'm paying the amount

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Speaker 1: I'm supposed to pay.

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Speaker 3: Like, I know that people like to shit.

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Speaker 1: On retail employees, but I have better retail employee.

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Speaker 3: It is important work.

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Speaker 1: Those jobs exist for a reason, and so like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know that we should be so picked to just

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Speaker 1: outsource those jobs to the very same people that we

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Speaker 1: like can't even trust to put their shopping carts away

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Speaker 1: consistently when they go grocery shopping, and just trust that

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Speaker 1: the populace is going to be able to do this correctly.

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Speaker 3: Like, I'm not trained at it. I might be distracted.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going in thinking, you know, listening carefully to

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Speaker 1: these beeps and what actually gets beeped and put in

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Speaker 1: the bag? That is a that is something that is

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Speaker 1: that if I do incorrectly, I could wind up with

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Speaker 1: legal fees and pork costs or whatever. That does not

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Speaker 1: sound like a great setup to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it doesn't. But you know, again, I am curious

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Speaker 2: how many cases there are like this where someone legitimately

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Speaker 2: made some sort of mistake or error where they thought

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Speaker 2: they had paid for a thing but they didn't pay

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Speaker 2: for it, and then they end up like getting charged

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Speaker 2: with theft. Maybe maybe it is happening a lot. I

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Speaker 2: don't know, but I guess a lot of this debate

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Speaker 2: again circles back in the most low stakes way possible

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Speaker 2: to like what kind of society do we want to

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Speaker 2: live in? And it doesn't seem completely far fetched to

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Speaker 2: me that like adult shoppers should understand that, like you

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Speaker 2: have to pay for the things that you want to

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Speaker 2: take out of the store and like operate this machine

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Speaker 2: in a way that makes that how it goes down, right,

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Speaker 2: Like it's yeah, maybe I haven't like had a training

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Speaker 2: in this software, but like at the Giant, I've used

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Speaker 2: those shelf checkouts like hundreds, if not thousands of times,

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Speaker 2: and like any other piece of software, yeah, it takes

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Speaker 2: a little bit of like experience to try to figure

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Speaker 2: out how to work it, but you know it's achievable.

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Speaker 3: I don't want this to devolve into another argument.

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Speaker 2: I know, I know, I hold every every statement is

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Speaker 2: an opportunity to get into it.

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Speaker 1: Well, so I agree with you on the surface, right

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Speaker 1: that like, yeah, people, you shouldn't just go into Target

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Speaker 1: and expect to just walk out with stuff that you

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Speaker 1: haven't paid for all the like, do I really am

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Speaker 1: I really crying? Like Target has plenty of money. Am

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Speaker 1: I really like crying tears for Target?

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Speaker 2: It's not like we're talking about that CBS and Columbia Heighten.

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Speaker 3: That's right, the CV, that's where everything's free.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just take what you want. Everything's free.

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Speaker 1: But like, I just think that efficiently checking out you

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Speaker 1: do have to bring a level of awareness that I

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Speaker 1: don't always have when I go into a Target, because

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Speaker 1: I'm not thinking of going into work, and so like

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Speaker 1: if you're not. If I often when I shop, I'm

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Speaker 1: listening to music or podcasts in my headphones, I'm not

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Speaker 1: necessarily listening for the beep beep beep of every item.

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Speaker 1: It is conceivable that you could put something in your

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Speaker 1: bag and not hear the beep if you're like a

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Speaker 1: new parent who hasn't had any sleep, and you're distracted

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Speaker 1: and your phone's going off and the kid is crying. Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that this is a widespread thing, but

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Speaker 1: I do think there are scenarios where perhaps that is

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Speaker 1: a burden that a consumer who is not at work

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Speaker 1: should not have to shoulder when they go in to

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Speaker 1: like pick up some items at Target, particularly if that

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Speaker 1: vernon could wind up with you having legitimate legal trouble

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Speaker 1: over it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, these are two separate issues, both worthy of debate

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Speaker 2: and discussion. You know, is it ethical to ask shoppers

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Speaker 2: to scan their own items? And separately, should people be

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Speaker 2: prosecuted when they make legit mistakes? Seems like clearly the

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Speaker 2: answer to that second question is no.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, a thousand percent. So do you remember Andy Rooney.

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Speaker 2: All the time? Every day? I miss him so much.

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Speaker 1: So for people who don't know who Andy Rooney is,

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Speaker 1: God rest his soul.

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Speaker 3: Andy Rooney used to be on sixty Minutes.

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Speaker 1: He had a segment which that was literally just him

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Speaker 1: like complaining for twenty minutes, Like I will never forget

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Speaker 1: a segment where he just walks around a grocery store

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Speaker 1: and like picks up fruits that he doesn't like, and

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Speaker 1: it's like candalops.

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Speaker 3: Who need them. And meanwhile I'm like riveted. I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 3: this is great TV.

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Speaker 1: But there is a piece in the Washington Post that

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Speaker 1: could have been written by the spirit of Andy Rooney.

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Speaker 1: It is like one of those style pieces called Dear

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Speaker 1: grocery store Owners, I don't work for you. The whole

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Speaker 1: thing is snarky as hell, But this is the thing

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Speaker 1: I wanted to sort of tease out. The piece reads,

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Speaker 1: dear grocery store owners, have you seen me in the

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Speaker 1: break room? No, there's a reason I don't work for you.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to work for you. I was bad

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Speaker 1: at it as a middle schooler, and I'm worse now.

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Speaker 1: And then he goes on to say a lot of

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Speaker 1: stores position a receipt checker to see whether people actually

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Speaker 1: paid for all the stuff they have. Wait a second,

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Speaker 1: you set up this system, You made us do all

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Speaker 1: of this, So now that we've slogged our way through

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Speaker 1: our temp job with zero training, they're going to audit us.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that kind of gets at something

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Speaker 1: where nobody asked your average consumer whether or not this

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Speaker 1: is a dynamic they wanted to do. I guess you

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Speaker 1: have the choice when you get into the self checkout

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Speaker 1: line or the human line. Although at our target, oftentimes

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Speaker 1: you go in there late at night, there is no

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Speaker 1: human option.

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Speaker 3: Is just self check out. You and I both know

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Speaker 3: this to be true.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't know what's going on with the human

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Speaker 2: cashier lines at that target. They are a checkout option

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Speaker 2: of last resort for me.

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Speaker 1: So you're like, I would never rarely am I dealing

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Speaker 1: with the human line at.

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Speaker 3: That specific target.

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Speaker 2: But unless something has gone wrong.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, But that thing that happens after you do self

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Speaker 1: checkout at some big box retailers, where then you have

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Speaker 1: to show them your receipt and they have to check

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Speaker 1: to see and maybe they have to put like a

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Speaker 1: little marker thing on it. That has been a source

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Speaker 1: of consternation for the public for a while. You've probably

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Speaker 1: seen videos of people like refusing to show their receipt.

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Speaker 3: Apparently from what I have read.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm no lawyer, this is not legal advice,

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Speaker 1: but you don't actually have to stop and have that

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Speaker 1: interaction with the person who is like, can I see

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Speaker 1: your receipt?

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Speaker 3: I think that the fact that that.

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Speaker 1: Is a moment of frustration for so many people, I

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Speaker 1: think gets at what this Washington Post piece is talking about.

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Speaker 1: That people feel like, well, you asked me to scan

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Speaker 1: out my stuff, and now.

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Speaker 3: You don't even trust me to do it. Like, either

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Speaker 3: you trust me or you don't.

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Speaker 2: This is one spot where you and I see eye

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Speaker 2: to eye because I hate that, you know, I've a

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Speaker 2: I hate people like stopping me and you know, having

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Speaker 2: this interaction with a security person who is acting like

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Speaker 2: a copy even though they're not. I hate that, And

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Speaker 2: then they want me to like take all my stuff

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Speaker 2: out of my bag. I take a lot of care

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Speaker 2: when I pack my bags. And when I'm like done

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Speaker 2: with the checkout and carrying my fully packed bags, I'm

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Speaker 2: like ready to carry them home. I'm not ready to

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Speaker 2: imprompt to take all the contents out and show them

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Speaker 2: to some security goon uh to check me. So I

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Speaker 2: agree with you there. I don't understand why they can't

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Speaker 2: be doing that checking with all of the cameras that

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Speaker 2: they've got showing me from like five different angles while

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Speaker 2: I'm checking out, Like if they don't see me stealing

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Speaker 2: something when you know when I'm actually doing it, why

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Speaker 2: just do like these these random checks down the line.

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Speaker 2: Don't like it.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about that, because retail chains are investing a

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Speaker 1: lot of money on like very serious kind of creepy

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Speaker 1: surveillance technology, and so it does seem to with it

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Speaker 1: if you have all of this technology to then be

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Speaker 1: like and then you have to go through this little

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Speaker 1: indignity of showing me your receipt and opening your bag

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Speaker 1: on top of it, it does seem a little much.

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Speaker 1: So Walmart uses what internally they call the mist scan detection,

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Speaker 1: which they say helps detect when an item lands in

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Speaker 1: a shopping bag without being scanned. And so they're basically

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Speaker 1: these AI powered visual scanners and cameras that are at

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Speaker 1: both the self checkout register and the registers run by

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Speaker 1: the store cashiers. There was at least at some point

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Speaker 1: use of facial recognition technology in Walmart. In twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 1: Walmart faced a lawsuit that was seeking class action status

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Speaker 1: a legend that Walmart violated Illinois's Biometric Privacy Act by

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Speaker 1: improperly using cameras in advanced video surveillance systems, as well

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Speaker 1: as software and databases provided by the facial recognition.

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Speaker 3: Company Clearview AI.

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Speaker 1: So Walmart spokesperson says that they were just testing out

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Speaker 1: facial recognition technology that they weren't actually like rolling it

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Speaker 1: out in the stores. But it does sound like all

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Speaker 1: parties agree that this facial recognition technology was being used.

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Speaker 1: We've already done so many episodes on why that technology

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Speaker 1: is janky, faulty, racist, sexist, like it just don't work,

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Speaker 1: really is what it is. And so if that's the

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Speaker 1: technology that you're kind of counting on or flirting with

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Speaker 1: to deter theft. It really presents a whole host of

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Speaker 1: issues because because it's really just not really reliable.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, facial recognition, as we've talked about on a bunch

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Speaker 2: of episodes, is like bad news reinforces a lot of

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Speaker 2: bad disparities, certainly in this context when it's you know,

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Speaker 2: one step away from somebody being charged with a crime. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And you know, the point that it's a lot of

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Speaker 2: money in these invested in these systems, Yeah, can't argue

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Speaker 2: with that.

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Speaker 1: And that's sort of one of my questions Slash theories

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Speaker 1: is that it just that sounds like a lot of

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Speaker 1: investment in surveillance technology. And I feel like, if this

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Speaker 1: is the level of surveillance technology that you need to

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Speaker 1: make self checkout work, then there is a problem And

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Speaker 1: I can't so first of all, logistically, I cannot imagine

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Speaker 1: that the costs of investing in that kind of technology

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Speaker 1: apparatus is not being passed down to the consumer in

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Speaker 1: some way. I don't have any inside knowledge of that.

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Speaker 1: I just I have to assume that's the case. You know,

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Speaker 1: how it's now becoming clear how much retailers lied about

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Speaker 1: retail theft and how much it was hurting their stores,

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Speaker 1: and I think that they did that to justify really

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Speaker 1: cracking down on surveillance, really making the shopping experience worse

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Speaker 1: for consumers, and being like, well, it's not our fault,

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Speaker 1: it's crime. I wonder if there's some aspect of that

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Speaker 1: going on here, Like part of me wonders if, for

439
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 1: whatever reason, Walmart really wants to be investing in this

440
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 1: kind of surveillance technology and they're using self checkout as

441
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 1: a way to justify that. It's like, oh, well we

442
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 1: have self checkout now that increases theft, or go we

443
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,120
Speaker 1: have to have this very involved surveillance technology in all

444
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 1: of our stores. I just wonder, because it's such a

445
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: huge investment in very serious surveillance technology that I don't

446
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 1: know how it makes sense to have it otherwise.

447
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really interesting thought. We were doing some

448
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 2: research for this follow up episode here. One of the

449
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 2: things I came across was somebody who had worked in

450
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 2: software building a bunch of this type of surveillance stuff

451
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,919
Speaker 2: that grocery stores big box retailers could use to have

452
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 2: like scanners and AI trackers following people around in the

453
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,919
Speaker 2: store to try to reduce theft. And they made the

454
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 2: exact same point. This was a person who had built

455
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 2: those technologies who said that, like all of them didn't work.

456
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 2: We're janky, and we're extremely expensive and not justified by

457
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 2: the cost. Like not according to them, it was not

458
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 2: even close. So the idea that the reason retailers are

459
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 2: pushing for this stuff is to justify increase surveillance. We

460
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 2: see examples all the time of people in positions of

461
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 2: power making decisions that cost them money just so they

462
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 2: can like maintain control. Right, Like, just last week we

463
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 2: were talking about Annimintur shuddering Pitchfork, even though it was profitable,

464
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,640
Speaker 2: because there was like rumblings of unionization, right like killing

465
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 2: a powerful, well liked brand just to like maintain that control.

466
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 2: And so spending a bunch of money on surveillance equipment

467
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 2: even though it doesn't pay back in money, the owner

468
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 2: gets to like feel that level of control.

469
00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:08,120
Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break at our back.

470
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: Something about self checkout automatically to me, feels like a

471
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 1: dystopian surveillance situation where we're getting away from what makes

472
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 1: us humans and relying more on technology. And like part

473
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: of that for me was the assumption that self checkouts

474
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: are making us lonelier or like has something to do

475
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 1: with the praying threads of.

476
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 3: Society and humanity.

477
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: That was an assumption that I made, not based on

478
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 1: any kind of facts or research or reading that I'd

479
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: done about it. It just to me stood to reason

480
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: that if we are in a loneliness epidemic, especially for

481
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: older folks, which the Search in General released a report

482
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: about this, the threat of social isolation recently, and it

483
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 1: is a damning report. If that is happening, then certainly

484
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: the rise of technology like self checkout is making it worse.

485
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: So is that actually the case, Well, you tell me.

486
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: I read this report in the Los Angeles Times that

487
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: suggests that the US is in the middle of this

488
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 1: loneliness and isolation epidemic and that self checkouts are actually.

489
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 3: Worse in the situation. The Times report talks about the.

490
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: Value of warm, low stakes relationships like that between a

491
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 1: shopper and a cashier, especially for older people. They spoke

492
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 1: to University of Michigan psychology professor Tony Antanushi, who said

493
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: that these kinds of connections are a critical tool for

494
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: maintaining emotional wellbeing later in life as social circles shrink,

495
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: so some supermarkets have actually taken intentional steps to use

496
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: the shopping experience at their store to combat loneliness through

497
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,360
Speaker 1: chatty lines. Jumbo, a grocery store chain in the Netherlands,

498
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: has Klatskasa, or the chatty checkout line for shoppers who

499
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: are not in a hurry and actually want to have

500
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: a conversation with the clerk. Jumbo's chief commercial officer explained

501
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: to the Conversation saying, many people, especially the elderly, sometimes

502
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: feel lonely. As a family business and supermarket chain, we're

503
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: the heart of society. Our shops are an important meeting

504
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: place for many people. I mean we want to play

505
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: a role in identifying and reducing loneliness. So the first

506
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: of one of these lanes was so successful that the

507
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: family owned company started rolling out these chatty slow checkout

508
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: lanes in two hundred of its stores.

509
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 3: Not only were customers really.

510
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: Responding positively to it, but this this situation also apparently

511
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: appealed to the employees. They are trained to recognize signs

512
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: of loneliness and come up with local initiatives to combat

513
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: social isolation. The lanes weren't just big with older folks,

514
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: but all shoppers of all ages seem to really get

515
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: a kick out of them. So this is nice, and

516
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: it sounds like it's working, and it sounds like it's

517
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: a needed thing, and I really like hats off to

518
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 1: Jumbo for starting with initiatives.

519
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 3: But I just don't know if a.

520
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: Retail cashier should be shouldering the burden of staving off

521
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: what sounds like a real crisis of loneliness for people.

522
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: In this Surgeon General's report on loneliness that I mentioned,

523
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 1: the search in General lays out this like six point

524
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: plan for combating loneliness, and it's things like investing more

525
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: volunteer organizations or religious groups, or policies around public trains

526
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: and or education, or physical spaces like parks and green

527
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 1: spaces and library so like more robust public infrastructure. Yes,

528
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: I love public infrastructure. However, here in the US, I

529
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: don't think that like a polite chatty clerk can really

530
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: take the place of meaningful investment in these kinds of

531
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: social goods. Like I almost be like, I like what

532
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: they're doing with these chatty lanes, and it does seem

533
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: like it's helping.

534
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 3: So I don't want to make it seem like I'm

535
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 3: pooh poohing that.

536
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: But I think that it's a lot to ask of

537
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 1: a retail cashier who is like their job is to

538
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: ring you up and be polite.

539
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 3: I don't know that we should.

540
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 1: Be shouldering those folks with this burden of easing something

541
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 1: that clearly is related to a fraying social goods infrastructure.

542
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have a lot of thoughts about this. One

543
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 2: of them is that that Jumbo chain sounds really cool.

544
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: I would love to go check out one of their

545
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 2: chatty lines next time I'm in the Netherlands. Whenever that

546
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: might happen, I'm definitely gonna do it. It sounds like

547
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: a really nice thing that that grocery store chain has

548
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 2: chosen to do for its community. That feels like the

549
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 2: sort of I don't know, Jimmy Dean movie feel good

550
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 2: capitalism story that if only the world were more like that,

551
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 2: things would be a lot better. Maybe it is like

552
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: that in the Netherlands, I don't know, But it's not

553
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 2: like that here in the US, right, Like, I think

554
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 2: there are a lot of differences. For one thing, those

555
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 2: cashiers in the Netherlands, they have subsidized healthcare, they have

556
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 2: just a bunch of other social safety net things. They

557
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 2: probably have a much higher salary I have to assume

558
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: than their counterparts here in the US. I was looking

559
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 2: into what cashiers make in the US, and like, you know,

560
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 2: I used to work hourly wage jobs, but it's been

561
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 2: a while and people are making ten dollars an hour,

562
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: right like that, that's just like not a lot of money.

563
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 2: And then to expect those people to shoulder this burden

564
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 2: like you were talking about of chatting with strangers in

565
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: making elderly folks feel connected, like, those are really virtuous

566
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: things to do. But for somebody who's working like three

567
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: jobs sixty hours a week to like scrape by, that

568
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 2: feels like it's really asking a lot. And that context

569
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: of what is the experience like for that employee that cashier,

570
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 2: I feel gets left out of a lot of these

571
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: arguments that we saw about like oh, a self checkouts

572
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 2: are making us all isolated. We should have more like

573
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 2: friendly chit chats with the cashier who's checking us out.

574
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: You know, I've definitely had experiences in my life where

575
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 2: I had like a nice, warm connection with a cashier

576
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: who is checking me out, But just as often I've

577
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: had the experience of, like, Wow, this person is really

578
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 2: tired and they're not giving me the time of day,

579
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: and I'm not gonna take it personally, but I'm also

580
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: like not getting a lot of fuzzies out of this interaction.

581
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna get my things and get out of here.

582
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: Well, that's another thing is that I have definitely with

583
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: my own eyes witnessed retail clerks take the time to

584
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: really connect with people who are shopping in a way

585
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: that I'm like amazed by. And so I don't want

586
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: to make it seem like there are no retail cashiers

587
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: who are doing that, because I know that there are.

588
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: My mom is a big shopper, and I know that

589
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: a lot of times that shopping is being done out

590
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: of a place of wanting a warm connection. And so

591
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: she's clearly getting a warm connection, and that's what she's

592
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: going in force. It's really not about the item that

593
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: she's buying. But like you said, if you're a retail casher,

594
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: you probably have your own struggles with loneliness, and so like,

595
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: are we just like passing down this burden from cashier

596
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: to cash here, to cash here to cashier. And you know,

597
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: if we really as a country cared about this loneliness epidemic,

598
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: which it seems like we're saying that we do because

599
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: a search in general put out a.

600
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 3: Report on it.

601
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: It's clear what we should be putting our investment in energy, right,

602
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: public good and social good stuff like parks and libraries

603
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: and community centers and all of that. Like it just

604
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: feels like under capitalism, it is like, well, we should

605
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: have parks and libraries for older folks. Best we can

606
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: do is an underpaid barista who is nice to them,

607
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: Like that's that's all we got to offer, And it's

608
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: just so sad, like we like, it doesn't have to

609
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: be that way, but that's.

610
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 3: How it is. That's how it feels to me.

611
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, an underpaid barista and half a million dollars in

612
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: surveillance technology.

613
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, will that helped?

614
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: Yeah?

615
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 2: Like what if we invested in the barista?

616
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: And this also bumps up around this, like popping online

617
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: discourse around chatting and retail employees. I'm chatty by nature.

618
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: I have a podcast, so like I love to chat

619
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: somebody up and you could give you if you were

620
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,959
Speaker 1: if we're having a face to face, I'm asking how

621
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: your day was.

622
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 3: I want some details when we were in Berlin that time.

623
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: They are a less chatty people, and I asked that

624
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: barista how his day was going.

625
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 3: What I'm a fake? He looked at me like I

626
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 3: had just insulted his mom.

627
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: God, yeah, they really value efficiency over there, and I

628
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 2: loved it. I felt like by the end of the trip,

629
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: I finally had it down where I could like perfectly

630
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 2: execute telling the barista my order, receiving it, paying and

631
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 2: leaving in the most efficient way possible. And in that moment,

632
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: I felt like a small piece of pride, I guess

633
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: for like making it work in the German retail context.

634
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: So it does sound like, you know, we're talking about

635
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: how chatting with the retail clerk it's good for folks

636
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: who are experiencing social isolation, but it does sound like

637
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: not everybody wants to have a chat with retail clerks. Recently,

638
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: writer Bailey Hird, who also worked as a server, tweeted,

639
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: sorry if this is rude or whatever, but I really

640
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: hate people who refuse to endure even the tiniest bits

641
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: of small talk. Can't tell you how many times I've

642
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: walked up to a table and said, how are you

643
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: doing today, only to be met with complete silence and

644
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: a blank stare. And that's I mean like it kind

645
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: of gets into a thing of like people are just

646
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: trying to do their job and certainly, you know, you

647
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: get from corporate or whatever like oh you're you're meant

648
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: to be chatty in this way or chatty in that way.

649
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: I used to work for a when I was in college,

650
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: I worked for a clothing retailer. I don't want to

651
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: say which one because I I mean, I was very young,

652
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: but I quit in a very unprofessional way. But when

653
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: they they for whatever reason, they gave us this guidance

654
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: that when you were letting somebody into a dressing room

655
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: to try on a bra or underwear or a cameousol

656
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: like some sort of intimate item, they wanted you to

657
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: share a secret with them. And so that was like

658
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: the guidance that we got. And so you you were

659
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: you were meant to be like oh, like an example

660
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: they gave was, oh, you're you're trying on this bra.

661
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 3: I love that bra.

662
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: I'm wearing it right now, Like that would be the

663
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: kind of like secret they wanted you to share.

664
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: What this is wild share a secret?

665
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: I always wondered if somebody was like, oh let me

666
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: you want to need a fitting room?

667
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, here you go.

668
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: You know, I once hit a guy while I was

669
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: driving and I just kept going.

670
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 3: I didn't even stop. We enjoy your items.

671
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: So what I'm saying is like retail clerks and people

672
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 1: who are working in the service industry, they're like often

673
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: given guidance from corporate to like be chatting in a

674
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: specific way.

675
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 3: I don't know.

676
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: I do feel like we have this situation where people

677
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: are complaining about this and these people are just trying

678
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: to do their jobs, I guess is what I'm saying.

679
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: Like at Trader Joe's, which as far as I know,

680
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: Trader Joe's does not do self checkout, Like none of

681
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:32,879
Speaker 1: the Trader Jows have ever.

682
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 2: Been has had self checkout, and I was thinking about them.

683
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 2: I think Trader Joe's is like the anti self checkout.

684
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: Yes, and they actually it sounds like maybe they want

685
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 1: their cashiers to be like a little more chatty with

686
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: you than other places. I saw this TikTok that I

687
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: hated where somebody was bemoaning the fact that to shop

688
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: at Trader Joe's they feel like they have to do

689
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: emotional labor of chatting with the cashier to buy their groceries.

690
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 3: But here's the.

691
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: Thing, if you are someone who is shopping, they're not

692
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: the one doing emotional labor in that situation. The person

693
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 1: who is required by corporate or their boss to like

694
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: be polite and chatty with you, even if they don't

695
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: feel like it to ring you up, that is the

696
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: person doing emotional labor, not you. You're not doing that

697
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: all of us to say, I think that the question

698
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: of what we get and what we lose through the

699
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 1: chattiness and politeness of a retail person is a whole

700
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: separate thing.

701
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 3: When technology comes into the conversation. It was easy for

702
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 3: me to.

703
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: Assume, like automatically, when you're doing self checkout, you're losing

704
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: this human connection and that's bad. But from doing this research,

705
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: I do think that is a little more complex than that.

706
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. Should we get into the listener feedback?

707
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 2: Let's do it all right? Well, I'll just start reading then.

708
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: So this one came.

709
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 1: From Hey, bridget here, just an fyi that this listener

710
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: wanted to be anonymous, so we are bleeping that listener's name.

711
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: In case you're wondering why there are bleeps, that's.

712
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 2: Why, Hi, Mike and Bridge. Wow, this issue just evokes

713
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: strong feelings. I've never felt the desire to comment on

714
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 2: something before that. Self checkouts is what brings me to comment.

715
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 2: I'd be curious to see if other small things like

716
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 2: this get more comments. I like self checkouts mostly because

717
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 2: I get to do my own bagging. Cashiers and baggers

718
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 2: aren't paid enough to make sure my bread doesn't get squished.

719
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,959
Speaker 2: My favorite method is what Meyjure does. That's a brand

720
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 2: in the Midwest. The store. They have a phone app

721
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: where I can scan and bag as I grab things.

722
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 2: Then I just zip through the payment. It would be

723
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 2: even better if I could pay through the app, but

724
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 2: the last they probably won't do that because of shoplifting. Disclaimer,

725
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 2: I think shoplifting is a consequence of poverty, and don't

726
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: blame shoplifters. Do what you gotta do. I'm a stickler

727
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 2: for data interpretation, so I have some thoughts about the

728
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: stats from the last episode. Sixty seven percent of people

729
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 2: have experienced the failure at self checkouts. What is the

730
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 2: percentage failure for human checkouts? Also, sixty seven percent represents

731
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 2: the percentage of people who have experienced an event. What's

732
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 2: the failure rate per transaction? Given then, a majority of

733
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: people like self checkouts I would posit that fit your

734
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 2: rate per transaction is low speculation. I think the part

735
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 2: that fails the most is the weight sensor that is

736
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 2: making sure you bag items. The stores that I shot

737
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 2: at don't use this sensor, and it's much more smoothe

738
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: I don't know why they care. You've already scanned the item,

739
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 2: so you can't steal it.

740
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 3: That's such a good point.

741
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 2: It is a good point. Yeah, right, you've already scanned it,

742
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: you can't steal it.

743
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: So as a data practitioner, are you a data scientist

744
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: or a data practitioner? Because this is like I know,

745
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: Mike asked somebody who works at data. You probably were like,

746
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: great questions, thank you for seeing the data like I do,

747
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: which is precisely.

748
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. I mean, is you know, quite reasonably

749
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 2: focused on like what is the denominator here? What's the

750
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 2: failure rate per transaction? I think I made you know

751
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 2: a similar point last time that sixty seven percent of

752
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 2: people said they've experienced a failure with self checkout. I've

753
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: experienced a failure with like everything, my computer, my phone,

754
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: my car, my relationship, my cat, Like everything fails at

755
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,479
Speaker 2: subpoint or an other, Right, But I'm not gonna throw

756
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 2: it out.

757
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: You are absolutely correct.

758
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 1: It is the little things that I think people feel

759
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: the most strongly and passionately about. So if folks are listening,

760
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: if you're like, oh, here's another little tech thing that

761
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: we should talk about in society that we all deal with,

762
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: and what are your thoughts on it? That would be

763
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 1: a great segment. So if folks have those, please write,

764
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 1: and I want to hear them. Who knew that these

765
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 1: little things would be such a sticking point for folks.

766
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also satisfying to talk about because I do

767
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 2: have strong feelings, but I don't have like identity connected

768
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 2: to it. So it feels possible to talk about them

769
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 2: and like hear new perspectives and change my mind in

770
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 2: a way that doesn't it doesn't always feel that way

771
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 2: about some other issues where there's disagreement. So it concludes

772
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 2: it's the small things, isn't it?

773
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 3: It sure is?

774
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 2: Okay. So the next email is from Phil Jones high

775
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: Bridget I've got a lot to say on this subject.

776
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 2: The first and foremost, You're right, fuck those machines. For

777
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: whatever added context this might provide. I live in gotteno

778
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,280
Speaker 2: Quebec on the border with Ottawa, Ontario, the nation's capital.

779
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 2: My general stance is that those machines are worse for everyone.

780
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 2: As you stated, then we've got four bulleted items here.

781
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 2: Number one slows the customer down is they now have

782
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 2: to operate the checkout, a specialized job people have long

783
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 2: been hired and trained for. There are quirks to the

784
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 2: machine that only a seasoned operator knows how to maneuver around.

785
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 2: There are special items that need to be dealt with

786
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 2: differently than standard barcode items. It's a mess. Number two

787
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 2: takes away a job from cashiers who now stand around

788
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 2: and monitor a bank of machines that took their job.

789
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 2: The cashier was promoted to managing a row of insulting

790
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 2: facsimiles of their former role. Number three it removes a

791
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 2: bagger job entirely, as that's now on the customer. Number

792
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 2: four it makes scamming the store that much easier, So

793
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 2: it's worse for loss prevention. The classics stake for the

794
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 2: price of bananas scam. Ultimately, the machines continue to degrade

795
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 2: interpersonal connections and community. We might see the same cashiers

796
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 2: every week at our local grocery store or pharmacy, and

797
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 2: whether we like them or not not recognize that we're

798
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 2: part of the same world and need to get along

799
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 2: to meet her own needs. These machines put yet another

800
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 2: barrier between us and our fellow humans. So let's take

801
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 2: a break there, because Phil has laid out a lot

802
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 2: for us.

803
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 3: More.

804
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 4: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

805
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: First of all, Phil, keep emailing me, because you can

806
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 1: write an email the way that this was so eloquently

807
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: laid out. I'm like, bulleted, this is the kind of

808
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: email that I really appreciate. Please keep emailing me. Phil's

809
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: email kind of gets at that tension that I feel

810
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: right that it does feel like for whatever reason, self

811
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: checkout is indicative of some kind of a fraying of

812
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: a social fabric that you know, like, like one of

813
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: the concepts I was reading about when I was preparing

814
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: for this episode is this concept of a frictionless society

815
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: that it's automatically better if you're not having to deal

816
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: with the friction that sometimes comes with navigating another human.

817
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: That you order your groceries online and do curbside pickup.

818
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 1: You order Uber Eat and they leave it at your door.

819
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 1: You don't even have to like talk to them. And

820
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 1: questioning the assumption that this is actually a better, more

821
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: cohesive society, because the point of being in a society

822
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 1: is navigating other humans and sometimes we don't like it,

823
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: but like that society. I think that Phill's email really

824
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: really gets at the tension that I feel around that

825
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: of like, well, is this better? Is a society where

826
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 1: I'm dealing with humans and navigating the intricacies of that daily,

827
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: Is that automatically a better society or a more efficient society?

828
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think Phil definitely has a very dystopian view

829
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 2: of the impact of these machines, Like we're all deep

830
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 2: in the sub basement of Metropolis, gloomily scanning our items.

831
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 2: They are good questions and it's if nothing else, this

832
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 2: is useful for us to like step back and think about,

833
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 2: like what does it mean to be connected to familiar

834
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: strangers in our community and forced transactions in the checkout

835
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 2: lane with the cashier. What is the value of those

836
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 2: Like maybe they're both good and bad. So that was

837
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 2: Phil's dystopian take on why those machines should be fucked. However,

838
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 2: Phil goes on to list a few scenarios where he

839
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 2: does use the machines. Another three points number one at

840
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 2: Shopper's drug Mark slash Pharma Pricks, I think CBS. Depending

841
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 2: on the location, there's usually one actual cashier in a

842
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: bank of machines. If I'm only ever buying a couple

843
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 2: of things, it is more discreet. For the more personal purchases,

844
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 2: and the one I frequent the most, there is usually,

845
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 2: like uncannily often an elderly person buying multiple six packs

846
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 2: of Pepsi bottles. There's the Quebec context for you. I

847
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 2: didn't know they drank a lot of Pepsi and Quebec.

848
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 2: It's just faster to use the machines. Second bulleted item

849
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 2: from Phil. At Costco, I'm basically only ever buying a

850
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 2: handful of things that are cheaper and used at Scale.

851
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 2: I live with my partner, no kids. We don't need

852
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: most things in bulk. Waiting in a ten person long

853
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 2: line with overflowing jumbo sized carts is entirely unnecessary. At Costco,

854
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 2: the machines are basically the express line. It's overseen by

855
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 2: as many as four people for six machines, or at

856
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 2: least a dozen cashier lines with both a cashier and

857
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 2: a bagger. No jobs are being lost here. This is

858
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: possibly the ideal situation for the machines.

859
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: So I don't have a Costco membership. I would die

860
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: of happiness to have one. Phil is just confirming my

861
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: widely held belief that Costco is my version of heaven

862
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:43,919
Speaker 1: and I want to go there.

863
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think this also re emphasizes the connection

864
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 2: between how the workers are treated and the customer experience

865
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: that people get to have when they go to this store. Right,

866
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: Like we talked about that Dutch store where because it's

867
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 2: in the Netherlands, you know, there is a social safety net.

868
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: They're providing a really good experience for the customers, and

869
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: the management is not trying to nickel and dime every

870
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:16,919
Speaker 2: like minute and action of the employees time. Instead, they're

871
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 2: allowing the employees to like and not just allowing, but

872
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: encouraging and facilitating the employees that spend some time like

873
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 2: caring for the customers. Costco is another company that treats

874
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 2: its workers pretty well. And then at the other end

875
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 2: of the spectrum we have like Dollar General, which is

876
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 2: notorious for treating its workers about as bad as you

877
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 2: can legally treat a person, and they were just like

878
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 2: all in for the self checkout where they would have,

879
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 2: you know, one or two people in the store managing

880
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 2: the entire store all aspects of the operations, from like

881
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 2: managing to stocking the shelves, to receiving deliveries, to mopping

882
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 2: the floors to fixing the self checkout machines when they

883
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 2: invariably like need to be cleared. These things are super related.

884
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think there is definitely some connection between

885
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: how the like. I mean, it's just decisions being made

886
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 1: at the corporate level trickling down to the experience that us,

887
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 1: both as humans who are shopping and humans who are

888
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: checking people out, are having.

889
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, like what is valued? Phil goes on, I've experienced

890
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 2: failure at any and all stores I've used. The machines

891
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 2: at grocery stores are particularly bad because of the complex

892
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 2: set of items. I think the machines are optimal at

893
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 2: five or fewer bar coded items. Beyond that, a trained

894
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 2: human is far more efficient. Checking out a grocery store

895
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 2: is a two person operation. That's why there are baggers

896
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 2: at subourbon stores. At least I find they're mercifully absent

897
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 2: in urban stores. I prefer to bag my own groceries,

898
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 2: but I can only do that efficiently because someone else

899
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 2: is handling the entirely separate process of scanning items and

900
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: handling exceptions. The cashier and I are a team. I

901
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 2: used to work in the retail tech space against this

902
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 2: phil as part of an internal communication SaaS company. When

903
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 2: researching integrating advanced detail hardware, I found a trove of

904
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 2: dystopian tracking devices, from camera setups to heat mapware customers

905
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 2: stop in a store for optimizing product positioning, to tracking

906
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 2: MAC addresses of people on the street. From pinpoint advertising

907
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: the shelves with pressure sensors to present video advertisements. Shit,

908
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 2: that's not even worth implementing or having developed in the

909
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 2: first place, as the cost is so much higher than

910
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 2: the return. Automated checkout machines are the one ubiquitous piece

911
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 2: that made it to the mainstream, the most frictionless, right,

912
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: the most frictionless version of these is indeed the most dystopian.

913
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 2: The Amazon Go model, where you're individually tracked throughout the store,

914
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 2: intercharge for all the items once you leave the store easy,

915
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 2: but nightmarishly removed from human interaction and giving over so

916
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 2: much personal data to Amazon. No thanks, sorry for the

917
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 2: long email, Thanks for the awesome show.

918
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: Cheers, film that is terrifying, and I think that the

919
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: cost of some of this technology it must be astronomical,

920
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: and I can't imagine it's worth it. And so if

921
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 1: this feels to me like it is investing seeing in

922
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: surveillance tech for surveillance tech's sake.

923
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, So thanks Phil for writing in, because that was

924
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 2: a pretty insightful email with some specialized knowledge. Let me

925
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,839
Speaker 2: go on. This one comes from Susan Bridget. I think

926
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:16,280
Speaker 2: you're gonna like this, Bridget. Mike. I dislike self checkout

927
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 2: immensely and only use it if forced to. For example,

928
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 2: if the line for a person is really long and

929
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 2: I only have one item that is maybe once every

930
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 2: year or two. My goal is to never use it.

931
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 2: I think it's impersonal, frustrating, and job stealing. When I

932
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 2: lived in Boston, the stopping shop near me had these

933
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 2: wants you could take with you as you shopped and

934
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 2: bag your groceries in your cart. You just had to

935
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 2: pay on the way out. I didn't mind those, and

936
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 2: the technology seemed more reliable than the typical self checkout.

937
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 2: You paid a cashier, but you didn't have to put

938
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 2: your groceries on a belt. Occasionally they would randomly flag

939
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:47,479
Speaker 2: you for a spot check of your items. I guess

940
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 2: to prevent theft. After they scanned a few items, you

941
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 2: were on your way. I actually liked that system way

942
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 2: better than self checkout. Susan goes on to thank us

943
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 2: for the episode about Claudine Gay. She brings up some

944
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 2: really good points about that that it's not a coincidence

945
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 2: that all of the Ivy League college presidents called it

946
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 2: testified before Congress were women. It's not a coincidence that

947
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 2: two of the three women are now gone from their

948
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 2: leadership roles. It's not a coincidence that the prime target

949
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 2: for the far rights campaign was a highly qualified black woman.

950
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 2: There are so many mediocre white men holding positions of

951
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 2: leadership that are never targeted. Yeah, so thanks Susan for

952
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 2: the nice email.

953
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for listening, Susan, and I do like this email.

954
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: It kind of I like it because it affirms my

955
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 1: worldview surprisingly enough.

956
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:38,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting that you know. Susan is clear

957
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 2: that she dislikes them the self checkout immensely, but then

958
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 2: goes on to describe this other less oppressive system of

959
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 2: checking oneself out that was less objectionable. Right, so it's

960
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 2: I do have to wonder how much of this people's

961
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 2: visceral reaction against self checkout is just the sort of

962
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 2: jankiness of the machines and the frustration of standing there

963
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 2: while it's like furiously beeping at you and telling you

964
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 2: that you've done something wrong. That like maddening, frustrating feeling.

965
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: I think I have a special sensitivity to machines beeping

966
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 1: at me. Part of me wonders if my feelings on

967
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 1: self checkout are because I am the befuddled person who

968
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: can't figure it out and the machine is beeping and

969
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 1: everybody's looking and I'm like having an issue.

970
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's just software, right, and it's one one

971
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 2: can master it.

972
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:35,439
Speaker 3: I'll get there one day.

973
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 2: Okay, here's our final email from Emily. Emily brought up

974
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 2: some really good points. I've been working as a cashier

975
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 2: at a grocery store since twenty twenty and have been

976
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 2: on the front lines of the self checkout debate, mostly

977
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 2: from customers complaining to me, a person with no power

978
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 2: over the addition of self checkout machines at our store,

979
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 2: about how hated they are and that they're taking my job. Well.

980
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 2: I can certainly see where they concern about my job

981
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 2: security comes from, at least in my personal experience, the

982
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 2: inclusion of self checkout machines has actually made my job

983
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 2: easier and more secure. Pretty much every member of my

984
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 2: team has suffered some sort of checking related injury, be

985
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 2: it bone spurs, carpal tunnel, or tennis elbow from the

986
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 2: repetitive motions of scanning items with self checkout. Rather than

987
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 2: having to take unpaid time off work, since as usually

988
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 2: starts before you've worked enough hours to get paid time off,

989
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 2: we can instead work the self checkout machines, which require

990
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 2: less manual labor and therefore less stress on work related injuries.

991
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 2: As for the machines taking our jobs, I'm a little

992
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 2: more split on the truth of this. On one hand,

993
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 2: I don't want to go to bat for any corporations

994
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 2: looking to raise profits by cutting labor costs. But on

995
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 2: the other as someone who was an essential worker during

996
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,359
Speaker 2: the initial COVID lockdown and the ensuing spikes and variations,

997
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 2: I can tell you it is a thankless job, and

998
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 2: I don't regrudge anyone who quits to move on to

999
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,720
Speaker 2: less people facing work. The front end has the highest

1000
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 2: turnover rate of any department at my store. Since having

1001
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 2: self checkout machines, I at least do not have to

1002
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 2: deal with customers can plaining to me about understaffing and

1003
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 2: long lines. Obviously, I'm just one person with one experience,

1004
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 2: but I figured i'd give my point of view since

1005
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 2: it became such a heated topic. Love the show and

1006
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 2: hope you're all doing well. Thanks for your time, Emily.

1007
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: Emily, thank you so much for this email, because I

1008
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: really wanted to get the perspective of somebody who currently

1009
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: works retail. I did not even think about the repetitive

1010
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: motion of scanning out people's items and what that might

1011
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: do to someone's body, and so the alternative of being like, well,

1012
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,359
Speaker 1: you don't have to take time off and make no money,

1013
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: you can do the self checkout, which is a lot

1014
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: less physically.

1015
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 3: Demanding on you.

1016
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: I didn't even think about that as a potential reason

1017
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: why self checkout might be better in retail establishments, and

1018
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 1: so I'm really thankful for that perspective. Also, I didn't

1019
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: think about this either, but it makes so much sense

1020
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 1: that people who have issues with self checkout complaining to

1021
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: the retail cashier who like she's like, oh well, I

1022
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 1: actually made the decision to put that to put that

1023
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: in the store. Thanks for letting me know. Oh, I'll

1024
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: take it out. Like what do people think that? Like

1025
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: that's how the decisions get made. Like, even if you

1026
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: have issues with self checkout like I do, you don't

1027
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 1: need like complaining to the retail cashier who has who

1028
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: did not make the decision to put that there is

1029
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: not the proper way to do that.

1030
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 3: Complain on your podcast people.

1031
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and not just complaining to this cashier who sounds

1032
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 2: like didn't really want to hear it, but also framing

1033
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 2: it as like and I'm complaining because I really care

1034
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 2: about protecting your job, Like, get over yourself. You don't

1035
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,720
Speaker 2: care about this person's job. If you cared, you would

1036
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 2: like say something nice to them or like tell a joke. Uh,

1037
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 2: not just like complain at them about how you are inconvenienced.

1038
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 1: I'm complaining at you for your benefit, don't you see this?

1039
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1040
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: And also like it just I mean it also kind

1041
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 1: of goes back to the conversation about retail establishments and loneliness,

1042
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 1: Like it just confirms to me that putting the burden

1043
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: on retail cashiers to stave off the loneliness epidemic when

1044
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: Emily is saying that the people the kind of experience

1045
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 1: that people are having working at the front end like

1046
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 1: this are not really that great and that people are

1047
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: rude and people, you know, maybe it's not something that

1048
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 1: people will want to would have a lot of warm

1049
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: fuzzies about.

1050
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that aspect really like stuck with me. I've been

1051
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,760
Speaker 2: thinking about that a lot since we did that episode

1052
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 2: and read these emails. How you know, I personally feel

1053
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 2: like I've you know, the experience of living in a

1054
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 2: city during twenty twenty when COVID disrupted all of our

1055
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 2: lives and we were like trapped inside. It really like

1056
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 2: changed a lot of things that certainly changed me. And

1057
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 2: so one part one thing after this conversation is I've

1058
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 2: just been thinking about how has it changed me? Right? Like,

1059
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 2: maybe I should go through the cash this the like

1060
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 2: human cashier line a little bit more often. I don't know.

1061
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 2: I recently, you know, I think over the weekend, went

1062
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 2: to the grocery store, that same giant that we've been

1063
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,359
Speaker 2: talking about all the time, and there is some kind

1064
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 2: of issue happening at the self checkout machines, and the

1065
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 2: line was just like not moving, and so I was like,

1066
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 2: you know what, as a little experiment, I'm going to

1067
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 2: get in the human cashier line. And I did have

1068
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 2: a perfectly nice interaction with the woman checking me out.

1069
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 2: We talked about the fennel I was buying. It was

1070
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 2: a nice interaction. So maybe the self checkout is like

1071
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 2: not even the thing. Maybe we just like need to

1072
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 2: treat each other a little better.

1073
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 3: Oh, I think that's right.

1074
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 1: Like the self checkout can be like an internal test

1075
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 1: of how we're doing, how well or how badly we're

1076
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: connecting and thinking about our fellow human.

1077
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. I mean a lot of time when

1078
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 2: I'm feeling particularly low or stressed or angry or something,

1079
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,479
Speaker 2: those are the times when I just want to head

1080
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:54,919
Speaker 2: down go into the self checkout line. And yeah, maybe

1081
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 2: that can be a little like signal to me to

1082
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 2: be a little bit more mindful of my mood and

1083
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 2: maybe try to change it by i don't know, being

1084
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 2: kind to somebody or something.

1085
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: Oh, I have to do that with intention when I'm

1086
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 1: in that place where everything is going wrong and I

1087
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 1: feel like I'm about to lash out. I it's like

1088
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: a personal challenge with myself to like go do something

1089
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 1: nice for a stranger and see if that reconnects, like

1090
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 1: reconnects you, recalibrates, you ground you. Like it's like a

1091
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 1: personal challenge because otherwise I just know myself and I

1092
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,720
Speaker 1: can really spin out and it's like, oh, the reason

1093
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,919
Speaker 1: that this work thing didn't go well if this person

1094
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 1: who had nothing to do with it, I mean take.

1095
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 3: My anger around on them.

1096
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: Like so it's it's like a little a little challenge

1097
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 1: that I have to myself to sort of reconnect and

1098
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: stay grounded. And then also just like stay I just

1099
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 1: try to stay grateful and checked in to the fact

1100
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 1: that we're all sharing space together, sharing this world together,

1101
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 1: and like it's comes with annoyances and handcuffs, but at

1102
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 1: the end of the day, like.

1103
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 3: What a gift.

1104
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, And you know, maybe we have to

1105
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 2: have three or four mundane, draining interactions to be able

1106
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 2: to have that one good one that like changes our mood,

1107
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 2: spends it more positive and gives us those those warm

1108
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 2: fuzzies with the stranger at the store. All right, so

1109
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 2: thanks again for writing in. Getting this kind of listener

1110
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 2: feedback is amazing, feels really good, and bridget we still

1111
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 2: need to do that experiment where we go to these

1112
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 2: stores and like actually compare, although it feels a little

1113
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 2: less charged now.

1114
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 3: Oh.

1115
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 1: When when we were qaing the episode, I was like

1116
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 1: getting getting my shoes on.

1117
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 3: I was like, let's do this, but we're still gonna

1118
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:41,399
Speaker 3: do it.

1119
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: Details to come, and as I said, I want to

1120
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: start really untacking other low stakes tech stuff. One that

1121
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: I might have is QR code menus. Maybe that'll be

1122
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,359
Speaker 1: next because I have a lot of feelings about QR

1123
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 1: code menus and if you do too, maybe start percolating

1124
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 1: on that. But yeah, thanks for listening and thanks for

1125
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: sharing your feedback with us and Mike. I guess I'll

1126
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: see you at the grocery store.

1127
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll see you there away from the self checkout.

1128
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

1129
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 1: just want to say hi, You can reach us at

1130
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 1: Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts

1131
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tenggody dot com.

1132
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 3: There Are No Girls on the Internet.

1133
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 1: Was created by me Bridget tod It's a production of

1134
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and an Unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

1135
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: Tarry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almato

1136
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Todd. If

1137
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review.

1138
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 4: Us on Apple Podcasts.

1139
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

1140
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.