1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Grading. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: My name is Matt. Our colleague Canol is not here today, 6 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: but we'll be returning very soon. They called me Ben. 7 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: We're joined as always with our super producer all mission 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: control decade. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, 9 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you 10 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: to know. Uh. The question I think that really inspired 11 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: us for today's episode, Matt, is simply this, what would 12 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: you do if you had some way to know with 13 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: absolute certitude whether or not someone was the truth or 14 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: whether they were lying. For centuries, people have been trying 15 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: to figure this out, and in recent centuries, various world 16 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: governments thought they had discovered or were suspected to have 17 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: discovered a range of substances that could force people, maybe 18 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: even against their will, to tell the truth. And today 19 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: we have to ask, are any of these stories about truth? Serum? Well, 20 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: you know true, But before we begin, I've got to 21 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: ask what was your what was your experience with learning 22 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: about truth? Serum. As a kid, I always associated it 23 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: with um thriller fiction and uh, you know, film and 24 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: and and spy stories. Yeah. I have a clear picture 25 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: of someone being restrained in a chair in some cold 26 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: interrogation like room and another person coming in giving the 27 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: whole We have ways of making you talk, speak, and 28 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: then injecting some kind of substance intravenously into an arm. Yeah. 29 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 1: I think I think that's a really common experience for 30 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: at least a lot of us in the West. I 31 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: don't know about you, but I was. I was never 32 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: in a situation in childhood where my parents would say, oh, 33 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: so you're saying someone else, you know, broke the broke 34 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: the vase or something. Let's see what you say after 35 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: we hit you with this LSD I. I never encountered 36 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: something like that in uh, in real life and childhood. Um. 37 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: But because this is so common, I think we have 38 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: as a society undergone this sort of c s I 39 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: true crime mentality, right where everything that law enforcement or 40 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: intelligence agencies might be able to use works really well. 41 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: There are no budget concerns, uh, there are impossible things 42 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: they're compute gers do just enhance, and there are no 43 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: ethics concerns either none, none, whatsoever, a little bit maybe 44 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: a more recent thriller, uh, like prestige television and film. 45 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: But yeah, this this is going to be a separation 46 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: of fact and fiction, and it's going to be an 47 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: exploration of something very dangerous and inherently conspiratorial. Here are 48 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: the facts. First, we ask what is a truth serum? 49 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: And we asked where the idea comes from? We have 50 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: to consciously get rid of of this stuff we've seen 51 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: or heard or read about in the world of fiction, 52 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: because first things people have to The first thing people 53 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: have to know, I believe is that many things have 54 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: been called truth serum. There's more than one thing that's 55 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: rocked this name before. Right. Oh yeah. There are a 56 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: number of chemicals that have different effects on the mind, 57 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: generally an opening up of sorts, right. Uh. And there 58 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: there's so many they've been used for a long time. Uh. 59 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: But there are a range of chemicals, specifically in the 60 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: modern era, really around the turn of the twentieth century, 61 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: that have been experimented with by by groups who are 62 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: interested in verifying the truth, let's say. But yeah, when 63 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: we're when we're researching this topic, you can really look 64 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: back to the Roman Empire, and you can look, there's 65 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: a phrase been I want you to say it, but 66 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: there's a phrase that has to do with a very 67 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: popular drink that exists today that existed then in vino veritas. 68 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: In wine there is truth, uh, this is nowadays. This. 69 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: You can see this in the form of a placard 70 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 1: across many drinking establishments. It's both a it's both a 71 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: folksy fun thing to note, and it's also a bit 72 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: of a warning for people because it's, you know, it's 73 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: it's fairly common throughout the world for people under the 74 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: influence of alcohol to have their inhibitions lowered, and if 75 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: they feel they are in a safe space, or if 76 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: they feel that uh, they can relax and be casual, 77 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: then they might disclose things they ordinarily would not disclose. 78 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: But important to note and this will this will come 79 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: up later in this episode. It's important to note that 80 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: a lot of that goes down to training and one's 81 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: awareness of one's environments. So, for instance, if you are 82 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: a trained a self taught con artist or a trained 83 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: win or if you are a if you are someone 84 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: who is trained to resist interrogation, then no matter how 85 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: sauce you get you're probably going to be able to 86 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: remember that there are some things you should not say. 87 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: Would you agree with that? I think so. I guess 88 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: it just depends on how s aust I I. For me, 89 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: it's it's house aust how much is applied because and 90 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: how much do you how much do you let your 91 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: guard down around a specific person? Right, So that's when 92 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: you get into the like the combination of techniques by 93 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: truth serum of sorts or sauce if you will, and 94 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: a person who is also impersonating someone who would be 95 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 1: your friend, right or someone that you can trust, right 96 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: or in the more sophisticated interrogation scenarios, you will have 97 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: a a series of techniques applied right from pseudoscience, like 98 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: the polygraph test. Two more perhaps nowadays are very soon 99 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: more evolved f M R I testing, which is well, 100 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: we'll get to it, but but yes, yeah, truth serum 101 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: is In fiction, it's often portrayed as something that's used 102 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: in a vacuum, but increasingly when it is allowed to 103 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: be used, it is uh. It is one of a 104 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: grab bag of techniques, all all for the same aim. 105 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: So the very first thing to ever be called truth 106 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: serum is something called scope polamine or scope lamine. If 107 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: you're one of the cool kids. Uh, here's what happens 108 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: back in. Childbirth is a dangerous endeavor, right, It's painful. 109 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: There are all sorts of health complications that can occur. 110 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: And that's not because doctors were bad people or something. 111 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: It's mainly because there was a lot more to be 112 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: learned right about safely bearing children. There are these two 113 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: doctors want to introduced. They're both German, Carl Goss and 114 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: burn Heart Kronig, and they popularized a treatment for women 115 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: during childbirth which is going to make some of our 116 00:07:53,920 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: fellow listeners today absolutely cringe. They gave them some scope lamine, 117 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: your scoopolamine, and they gave it in combination with morphine 118 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: and injected this, yeah, to cause something called twilight sleep. 119 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: This is not after the baby is born. This is 120 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: while the child is within within the mother's body. Uh. 121 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: This they're shooting them up with morphine. Yeah. And the 122 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: thinking there is you can see what they were going 123 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: for or maybe why they thought this was a good idea, 124 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: but it's definitely not a great idea. The point is 125 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 1: to put the patient, the the woman giving childbirth into 126 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: a thing I think they did. They call it twilight sleep. 127 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: It was like a to knock them out basically while 128 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: they had a baby. And it would also reduce all 129 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: the pain that they're feeling in that moment or those 130 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: hours of childbirth. And it would I think it would 131 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: even like erase some of the memory of even having 132 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 1: a child again. So it makes giving birth much easier 133 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: in theory. And imagine you are a well to do 134 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:09,479 Speaker 1: family at the time that this this treatment is becoming popularized, 135 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: and you can go to the next sare and say, oh, 136 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: it was it was a breeze. You know why I 137 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: spoke with the doctor. I don't remember everything that happened, 138 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: but I woke up with dea uh dear Frederick here 139 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: and he's quite the lad. Uh. Later they would find 140 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: that there were quite dangerous consequences to injecting pregnant people 141 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,839 Speaker 1: with things like morphine. Uh. These two doctors, by the way, 142 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: they didn't invent this idea, but they refined it to 143 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: something that became known as the Freeburg method. And this 144 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: gap really popular, while it was also very controversial, increasingly controversial. 145 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: You described twilight sleep perfectly. It's an amnesiac state. You 146 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: lose a lot of sensitivity to pain. This is great 147 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 1: for the careers of people like Dr Goss. Just four 148 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: years later he is performing this method on all of 149 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: his pregnant patients. Were travels and people with the means 150 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: to go meet Dr Goss are paying for it. Wealthy 151 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 1: people in Germany travel to him for the Freeburg method. Uh, 152 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: this twilight sleep thing takes off, and the statistics, this 153 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: is the weird thing. The statistics appear to argue in 154 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: favor of their method. At the Women's Clinic of the 155 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: State University of Boughten, where Goss was serving as a physician, 156 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: they like over time they came to have the city's 157 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: lowest rates of maternal and neo natal mortality. So now 158 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: people weren't weren't just saying, hey this, I like this 159 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: because it will make it easier for me. They were saying, hey, 160 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: this is better for the kids as well. You know this, 161 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: You could see the appeal, right, they don't have to 162 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: hear the mother yelling and writhing and and doing all 163 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: the things, going through the pain as they're being born 164 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: into the world. Now it's a very quiet ordeal, possibly 165 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: yelling Yellie at their partner. You did this to me, 166 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: and I'm of course having fun. They're being silly about 167 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: the you know, the glorious thing that is childbirth and 168 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: everything that comes with it. Just I don't know, I'm 169 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: trying to imagine the viewpoint from that time. Yeah, and 170 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: knowing that childbirth was painful, often dangerous, and childbirth can 171 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: still be very dangerous today, that's it's no walk in 172 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: the park. Just to be very clear, uh what the 173 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: method is controversial not just due to potential consequences for 174 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: the child involved, who, by the way, gets no say 175 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: and how this all goes down, obviously, but there were 176 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 1: also this might seem weird to some folks. Now, there 177 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: were also political factors that made this controversial. So when 178 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: when it starts being a thing across the Atlantic in 179 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: the United States, there are folks who are saying, this 180 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: is kind of unpatriotic. This is a German birthing technique, 181 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: and Germany is not one of the good guys in 182 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: World War One. So people people had their you know, 183 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: their political ideologies tied up in it. But if you 184 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: look back at the reports, the families who could afford 185 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: this method often swore by it later and that's where 186 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: we fast forward to sixteen. Here's the guy who's usually 187 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: introduced as the UH as the protagonist of of Truth 188 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: Serum this Truth Truth Serum zero. His name is Robert 189 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: Ernest House, Dr House, if you will. He's an obstetrician. 190 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: It's nineteen sixteen. He is using the same technique we're 191 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: talking about, the old twilight sleep birthing method. And uh, 192 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: the birth goes well, just as you would expect. The 193 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: patient appears to be sleeping and Dr. House is like, okay, well, 194 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: we've got the child. We need to weigh this sucker. 195 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: Let's see how let's see how heavy it is. But 196 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: they can't find the scale, and something very strange happens. Yeah, 197 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: they're looking for the scale. Of course, the the husband 198 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: here is is freaking out right, and he's pictured this 199 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: guy running around going scale, scale, scale, scale. I can't 200 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: find the scales. Hey, doc, I'm sorry, I don't know 201 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: where they are. And then the mother, who is still 202 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: in this state of twilight sleep and and sedated as 203 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: just pipes up, even though she appears to be unconscious, 204 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: without really moving or becoming animated, she just says they're 205 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: in the kitchen on a nail behind the picture, and 206 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: this is dr Houses like sound cute moment, you know 207 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: there it is, that's the double take. Yeah, she she's awake, 208 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: or she can respond at least, but she still appears 209 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: to be asleep. It's very very must have been very 210 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: odd to have that response. That's it. It's the equivalent of, 211 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, being a mortician or something. You're working on 212 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: a patient and they just like stand up. They're like, 213 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: oh no, I'm fine. Hello, We're all good. Uh. That's 214 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: what it reminds me of. Yeah, and doctor House. This 215 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: is the episode that gets most reported in his story, 216 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: but he encountered other very similar events as he was 217 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: administering his version of this Twilight sleep method, and later 218 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: he would write about this, Matt, I've been I've been 219 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: doing a couple of voices here. I think you should 220 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: do this when you got a good like turn of 221 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: the entry doctor voice. Let me let me try my 222 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: doctor House. Under the influence of the drug, there is 223 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: no imagination. They cannot create a lie because they have 224 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: no power to think or reason. I love this. I 225 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: love this because you nailed Hugh Lari's uh Metrican access. Yeah, yeah, 226 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: I knew instantly, so uh. The fantastic comedian actor and 227 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: honestly do very talented pianist. I feel like more people 228 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: should know that. Uh. He is a British I believe 229 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: he's British UK national, and he has a very specific 230 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: approach to an American accent. And it sounds good if 231 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: you're if you're listening to obviously we're fans. Uh yeah, 232 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: but you nailed it. And and what he's saying here 233 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: this doctor House, whether we're talking about the fictional one 234 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: or Robert Robert Ernest here, what he's saying is, I'm 235 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: realizing there's something bigger than there's more potential here than 236 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: I have been aware of previously. He thought everybody under 237 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: the influence of this stuff, and it's not just the mixture, 238 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: he realizes, it's the scope all I mean, he says, 239 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: everybody under the influence of this substance seems incredibly candid 240 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: right there. They're lucid, but they're not you know, their 241 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: their speech doesn't have the pre verifications or the deceit 242 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: that you would hear in common conscious speech. So he 243 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: becomes a good guy. He says, I could use this 244 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: substance to help prevent false confessions, to help people get 245 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: out of jail, and This is something that a lot 246 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: of folks don't know about. Truth serum. What we're talking 247 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: about today is something that originally was meant to exonerate 248 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: people who were put away by a crooked system or 249 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: pressured by law enforcement. So in this odd series of events, 250 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: Dr House finds himself becoming an advocate for criminal justice reform, 251 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: and he cracks the deal to try this out on 252 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: prisoners in the Dallas County jail. No, it's you know, 253 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: it's long been an observation that there are very few 254 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: guilty people in prison or jail, at least if you 255 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: ask them. Right, nobody did it. But but but he 256 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: wanted to see if it was true. So how did 257 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 1: this test go down? So there's two guys who were believed, 258 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: at least by authorities, to be guilty of a crime. 259 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: But these guys are doing that thing right, maintaining their 260 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: innocence no matter what, even while they're doped up with 261 00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:01,959 Speaker 1: with this substance. And interestingly enough, because of that, because they, 262 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, they maintained their innocence while under the influence 263 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: of these drugs, they were acquitted. And that's certainly not 264 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: the only time that it was used in that manner. 265 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 1: But scopolamine then found its way into a court of law, uh, 266 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: with a judge looking at it in nineteen six. Yeah. Yeah, 267 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: So as this is taken off right, it is just 268 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: like Twilight Sleep before it. There are people who see 269 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: it as a silver bullet solution, and there are people 270 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: who see it as tremendously controversial, if not dangerous, unethical 271 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: and illegal. So in nine we see this court case 272 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: where a judge rejects the statements that are brought to 273 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: them or evidence, purported evidence brought to him via scopolamine, 274 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: because this judge has questions about not the ethics but 275 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: the science. And they're saying, and I think there's a 276 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: valid statement at this point. It's only they're saying, Ah, 277 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: this hasn't been around for a while, guys, so we 278 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if we can count this as science 279 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: just yet, because that's what people used to do. They 280 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: used to apply critical thinking in those ways back back 281 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: in the day. Uh. Yeah, no, the spoiler alert. The 282 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: twenties had some problems, but so do the So despite 283 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: you know these court cases where we see where we 284 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: see this stuff dismissed, we know that throughout the nineteen 285 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: twenties and nineteen thirties, law enforcement across the US would 286 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: use this on suspects, and in other cases judges did 287 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: permit the statements the subjects gave while under the influence, 288 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: even if you could make a case that this was 289 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: in violation of their Fifth Amendment rights, especially if they 290 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: didn't consent to getting shot up. Well, yeah, not especially 291 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: that man. But there's the other side effect of scope 292 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: pollowen that we talked about at the top. It also 293 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: tends to wipe the old memory space of what you 294 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: did while you were under the influence. So you could be, 295 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: you know, violating the Fifth Amendment essentially to yourself on yourself, 296 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: and you would have no idea what you did unless 297 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: there was a recording of it. And even then, if 298 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: if it's just someone taking notes or something of a meeting, 299 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: how do you prove that that person actually said that? Yeah, 300 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: and then there's another potential issue, like we're we're just 301 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 1: in the here of the facts part. Well, we'll get 302 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: to the crazy stuff as well, folks, But you need 303 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: to know all the facts here are pretty crazy and 304 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: damning as well. There's there's this other thing that because 305 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: a step farther, which is imagine you wake up, you're 306 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: in you're in jail. You vaguely remember interacting with the 307 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: police and interview. You're in jail, You're you're having this 308 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: situation where it's like the Hangover movie, like I said, 309 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: what what happened? I said, I killed someone. I've never 310 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: killed an anybody. No, really, you have to believe me. 311 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: And then Johnny Law says, uh, sorry, sorry, pal, We've 312 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: got you because you did confess and we have a 313 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: record of it, and it doesn't matter that you don't 314 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: remember it because we saw you say it sticky and 315 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: we'll see why. We'll see why this is so sticky. 316 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: But the deal is that it's bigger than just judges 317 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: and police informants and the legal criminal system. Boom boom boom, 318 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: boom boom. The police were not the only people paying 319 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: attention to this. Uncle Sam Overall super into the idea. Uh. 320 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 1: The Nazi Party super into the idea. Uh. The Soviet 321 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: Union loves it. This is like the sliced bread of spycraft. No, 322 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: it certainly is. And we're gonna tell you all about 323 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: how those military mtes deployed these substances. Right after a 324 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, We've returned. Let's let's go forward 325 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: to World War Two. So the US has this intelligence 326 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: outfit called the Office of Strategic Services, the USS, the 327 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: predecessor of the modern day CIA. They loved the idea 328 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: of a truth serum, and they experimented with so much 329 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: different stuff to see if there was a possible truth serum. 330 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: Here's what they wanted. Ideally, what they wanted was something 331 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: you could apply to a suspect. Oh, they weren't really 332 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: thinking of consent at this point. They were just saying something, 333 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: we can shoot up someone with a pill, we can 334 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: force them to take someone, we can slipping a drink 335 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: or a cigarette that will of the time get them 336 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: to tell us the truth. And there was a reason 337 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: they wanted this. Obviously enemy intelligence. Obviously you could save 338 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: people's lives or preserve event attacks. But they went through 339 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. They didn't stop at scope Leman. 340 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: They were experimenting with mescalin, and which would have been 341 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: unfamiliar to a lot of US residents at the time. 342 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: And they were also experimenting with cannabis, which would have 343 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 1: been at least passingly familiar to a lot of people. 344 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: And then you know side note, which we could talk 345 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: about later. During the fifties and sixties, the CIA tried 346 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: out some other drugs searching for a true truth serum, 347 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: most notably barbiturates and l s D during Project m 348 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: k Ultra, and what they found was um. Well, they 349 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: were disappointed. They were not happy with their with their endeavors. Yeah, 350 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: they thought they were making some kind of truth serum 351 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: and like deploying that. But really they were just opening 352 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: people's minds up too wide, maybe so wide that they 353 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 1: were like, oh, oh I love you man, I love everything. No, 354 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: that's not true, but it was definitely an odd situation 355 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: applying psychedelics as a truth serum, or the concept of 356 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: even using psychedelic substances as a truth serum. So we've 357 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: got a quote here, and this this comes from Is 358 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: this from mk Ultra? Yeah, this is like a c 359 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: I a summary from from analysis of what went down 360 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: and it later got declassified. And you know we I 361 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: think you and I in particular had this thing when 362 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: we were younger, where whenever we learned something and been declassified, 363 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: we thought it would be so juicy and we just 364 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: kept I think we were both just continually surprised by 365 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: how much of it seems to be government agents saying, well, 366 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: that did not work, and that's that's what we that's 367 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: what we got here. So the line is quote is 368 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 1: this No such magic brew was the popular notion of 369 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: truth serum exists. The barbite, which, by disrupting defensive patterns, 370 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: may sometimes be helpful and interrogation, but even under the 371 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: best conditions, they will elicit and output contaminated by deception, fantasy, 372 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: garbled speech, etcetera. So a whole lot of like, okay, 373 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: where are the plans triangles? Man? The plans are in triangles. 374 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: That's like the most planning shape. Well, I guess, I guess, 375 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: Like can you hear green? You know? And they're They're 376 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: all I'm thinking about. That's been used to great effect 377 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: in comedy, like it Happen and gets Smart. There's this 378 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: whole thing about someone under interrogation who is just the 379 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: boring people to tears because they're talking about everything except 380 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,160 Speaker 1: apped like they're giving you all the information that happens 381 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: in their heads, dream of consciousness, real time. A recent 382 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: example of this is from the ant Man films. This 383 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: isn't a big spoiler, but did you did you see both? 384 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: I can't remember it's the first one. In the second one. 385 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: Big fan of Paul road knots I have not seen 386 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,479 Speaker 1: him in the Marvel verse, all right, just saving it, 387 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: saving it for the right time. Uh well, without spoiling 388 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,719 Speaker 1: it for you, Matt. There is a tremendously loquacious character 389 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: who occurs in both films, and he's like the buddy 390 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: sidekick who is known for being a motor mouth, very talkative. 391 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,479 Speaker 1: So there is a bad guy who dopes this dude up, 392 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: this sidekick with a truth Sarah, and the guy just 393 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 1: won't shut up. And it's like his opinions about Morrissey 394 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 1: and modern art and like you know what he where 395 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: he thinks people are at emotionally, it's it's worth it 396 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: just to watch. You can just watch the bit on YouTube. 397 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 1: But but the oss found something like that, they've found 398 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 1: something like that, like where do you know where are 399 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: the other Russian spies? And well, you know where they 400 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: add emotionally? I think they're really stressed. You know, you 401 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 1: kind of live in this crazy life. And have you guys, 402 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 1: did you ever hear did you ever hear music? Though? 403 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: Like really hear it? Because I was earlier at a band, 404 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: you know, like it just goes on and on and on. 405 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: Um so oss long story short disappointed. And there were 406 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: lots of other things they used that all had something 407 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: in common. They were all either sedatives or hypnotics, but 408 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: they had this ability to alter your higher brain function. 409 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: And now we are going to mispronounce some chemical names, 410 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: or at least I am I don't what oh you say? Okay, 411 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: we're all we're all doing it, all right, I'll start 412 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: with an easy one. Fan all, yeah, and all, I'm 413 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: telling you it's it's one of the best benzo diazepines, 414 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: sodium thiopental m O barbital and oh, here's the big one. 415 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: Do you want to give it a shot? Okay, let's 416 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: give it a go. Three quinn of clydnol benzolate. How 417 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: that's pretty good. Due, Well, we'll see. But I feel 418 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 1: I feel like a test for inebriation should require people 419 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: to pronounce words like that. So they'll say, do you 420 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 1: know what we injected you with? And they'll say three 421 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: quinnel hattle give and they'll say, okay, he's ready. So 422 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: the long story short version is just simply this for yes. 423 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: For more than a hundred years, people have been trying 424 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: to find a genuine, reliable truth serum. The biggest, strangest, 425 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: most disturbing question of all is this, Does any of 426 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: this stuff actually work? Here's where it gets crazy. The 427 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: answer is probably yes. But would you agree with that? Yes? 428 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: But we usually don't yes, but on this show, But 429 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: in this case I concur Yeah, we're usually more of 430 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: a more of a yes and show. So yeah, I 431 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: think it's fair for us to say. These chemicals definitely 432 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: alter the mind that part is true, and they alter 433 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: them in a way that could make it incredibly difficult 434 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: for a lot of people to lie effectively, to lie, 435 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: especially if they were aware that they were being deceptive. 436 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: But that is not really the same thing as something 437 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: that forces people to tell the truth. That's an super 438 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: important distinction, like a barbiturate Okay, so these are big 439 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: in the world of true serums. You just mentioned sodium 440 00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: theopental What what is this exactly? It's a fun substance 441 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: that was first obtained in the twentieth century. There's some 442 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: chemists that found it. Ernest Volive and Donali Tavern interesting 443 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: folks and just like Mr House Old Doctor House that 444 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: we mentioned before, they were trying to solve a problem 445 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: a different problem in this instance, and instead of interrogating 446 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: someone or putting a patient into twilight sleep, they wanted 447 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: a pain killer. They really just wanted a super effective, 448 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: awesome pain killer because they were doing operations and they 449 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: found this thing had some interesting effects. Yes, so you 450 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: know what they say. Your your body is a wonderland. 451 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: And some part of the water land of your body. 452 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: I don't know why, lupy, I haven't slept, let you guys, 453 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: but part of your body is a wonderland includes a 454 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: race track. That racetrack is your spinal cord. Think of 455 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: it that way. So when everything is working as per 456 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: normal as it should, your body is sending messages to 457 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: your spinal cord. They're racing up the cord to your 458 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: brain and down the cord to the rest of your body. 459 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: Things like sodium theo pental another related barbiturates that be 460 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: used as truth serum, really slow down the part of 461 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: your brain that handles higher order functions, the part of 462 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: your brain that plays imagination games, that plans for next Friday, 463 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: that sets goals, all that stuff, you know, abstract thinking 464 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: about the future, and so on. As a result, it's 465 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: much more difficult to perform a high functioning task like 466 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: concentrating on a single activity. For instance, it would probably 467 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: be difficult for you to do some higher order math. 468 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: It would probably be difficult for you to concentrate on 469 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: a single activity for a sustained amount of time, like 470 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: walking in a straight line or ding ding ding, lying 471 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: and consistently maintaining a lie. Because if you've ever been 472 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: in an interrogation, you know a huge part of it 473 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: is asking the same question multiple different ways to trip 474 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: someone up, and usually only asking the question if you 475 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: feel like you already know the answer. So it's tricky. 476 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: Wouldn't go in not under the influence of something? This 477 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: is crazy because even if you had a cover that 478 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: you had generated earlier, you might have trouble remembering the 479 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: facts and reciting them even if you like, even if 480 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: you practice them, and those pauses and recitation, those pauses 481 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: in recollection are going to indicate that you are not 482 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: being truthful because if you ask someone like even when 483 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: people aren't under the influence of something, you can ask 484 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: somebody just out of the sudden, like hey, what's your birthday? 485 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: Or Hey, what what's your home address? And unless people 486 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: have prepared to hear that right, Depending on where their 487 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: minds at in a conversation, they might pause, so that 488 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: sounds weird, but that sounds that can sound natural as well. 489 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: There are other things that you can ask that would 490 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: be instantly recalled. Right, what's your middle name? Most people 491 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: don't have to think about that unless they're using a 492 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: fake name. So then because the racetrack of of your 493 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: your brain and your spine spinal cord, like all your 494 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: transmissions are muddied up, it becomes quickly obvious. That's the theory. 495 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: You encounter stuff like this to this difficulty concentrating when 496 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: we're falling asleep, when we're in that wait for it, 497 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: we earned it, this time liminal state between wake and uh. 498 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: The world of the Sandman. If you want to see 499 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: a really great example of how sodium thiop intol works, 500 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: you can go to the BBC and look for article 501 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,040 Speaker 1: titled can a drug Make You Tell the truth? And 502 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: in here you can watch a TV presenter and I 503 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: guess he's an executive producer, at least according to his 504 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,320 Speaker 1: own admission, while he was under the effects of sodium 505 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: five pental UH. His name is Michael Mosley, and he 506 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: tried it out and the whole point of the experiment, 507 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: I guess was for him to come up with this 508 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: story that he was this world renowned doctor and he's 509 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: he's known for doing heart surgeries across the lands, and 510 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: he had this whole backstory that he built up. He 511 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: memorized it, and he went into this quote interrogation under 512 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: the effects of sodium thiopental with the goal of keeping 513 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: that ruse going right the whole time. And he received 514 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: a small dose, and he was being interviewed by someone 515 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: who was very kind, almost in a clinical setting, and 516 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: as they went forward and he got more and more 517 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: of the system, the stuff in his system. He likened 518 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 1: it to drinking an entire bottle of champagne and that 519 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: level of intoxication where you feel happy, nothing feels wrong, 520 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: There's no reason for me to lie about anything this. 521 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: I'm just this is a great time. Everything's good. And 522 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: it made me think, Ben that if you were a 523 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: CIA or another intelligence agency, if you combined that substance 524 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: with an environment that felt welcoming and happy and like 525 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: everything's good, like this is a good time. I like 526 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: these people that are around me, and you're feeling that way, 527 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: I think you could get a disturbing amount of information 528 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,720 Speaker 1: out of somebody. Oh yeah, I have a sing along. 529 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: Sometimes that's all it takes, you know, get the warm 530 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,320 Speaker 1: I'm not kidding, warm fuzzies. Right, you nailed it. This 531 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,479 Speaker 1: is something that a lot of us listening today will 532 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: We'll hear and they'll say, yeah, just get drunk with people, 533 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,399 Speaker 1: or just get them drunk and make them think you're 534 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 1: drinking too, something like that. Right. Uh. The OSS K 535 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: to a very similar conclusion, folks. They said, Okay, we've 536 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: tried a lot of strange drugs. Uh, they're not too 537 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: different from what we've seen under the effects of alcohol. 538 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: People are more talkative, like you said, Matt. But then 539 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: they also said, just because they're more talkative doesn't mean 540 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: they're objectively more truthful. There are issues they found, and 541 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 1: they said, you know, similar to that time we tried 542 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: to hypnotize all those people. There are some issues of 543 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: suggestibility and the influence of the interviewer. I like that. 544 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: I like those side eyes. Mat. Uh. They said, you know, 545 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: sometimes even when we're using the first truth serum v 546 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: zero drug scope, al Amin, we're seeing that these people 547 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 1: will say things that appear to exonerate them and appear 548 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 1: to incriminate them, and sometimes they just contradict each other. 549 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: They're just they're just sort of in a good mood 550 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:08,959 Speaker 1: and trying to keep the vibe going. Yeah, I can't 551 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: recommend enough that you should watch that video when you 552 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: get a chance, everyone, because it is fascinating to see 553 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: it's exactly what the OSS is describing here. It's just 554 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: Michael Mosley said he was feeling exactly what we're describing, 555 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: but he also kind of wanted to say things that 556 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: would make the person interviewing him happy. Right, So it's 557 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: like that that interaction between the interviewee or the interrogated 558 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,760 Speaker 1: and the interrogator. Um, it's interesting what what will happen 559 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: between those two people? Yeah, a hundred percent, And it's 560 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: all about rapport. You hear that in all sorts of industries. 561 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,919 Speaker 1: There's there's one funny anecdote we found. It's a great 562 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: example of this. So originally some of the first substances 563 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,240 Speaker 1: that OSS was tried in the world at truth shareon 564 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: likely I think because of the dosage or the ways 565 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: in which is being applied. They said, look, we're just 566 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: making people sick. They're not feeling well, it's not gonna 567 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: be helpful for us. So they eventually create this extract 568 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: from cannabis, and just like that poison in the Princess Bride, 569 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: it's colorless, it's odorless. Uh. Never gambled with the Sicilian 570 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: or whatever. I can't remember that exact line. Yeah, but 571 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: this thing that we're talking about and we're describing, and 572 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: it's very similar to that thing you just dabbed. Just 573 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:36,800 Speaker 1: be aware of that, right, right, Uh, this is something 574 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: that they just call t D. Never go against the 575 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: Sicilian when death is on the line. Okay, I saved 576 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 1: us so many emails, so uh sorry, I was just 577 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: remember this, Yeah, t D. The way they would apply 578 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: this stuff is very much like what you described, maybe 579 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: with more of an odor for were your your mileage 580 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: may vary at home. What we're saying is they took 581 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 1: this stuff and they would inject it into cigarettes or no, yeah, 582 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: they would, ben. I think it's more like those cannabis 583 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: vape pens that are popular now, just without the flavors. 584 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,919 Speaker 1: That's what. Okay, maybe if they got into the flavor game, 585 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: they would have been ahead of the curve. Right. Just 586 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: give the interrogated person a VP pen and you're good. 587 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: To go. All right, so here we go. This is 588 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,319 Speaker 1: the quote t D. This substance appears to relax all 589 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 1: inhibitions and to deaden the areas of the brain which 590 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: govern an individual's discretion and caution. And the quote continues. 591 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: The sense of humor is accentuated to the point where 592 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:47,280 Speaker 1: any statement or situation can become extremely funny to the subject. 593 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: Oh wow, they're just describing popular media from like from like. 594 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: I love that they The idea is that these relatively 595 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: serious people, maybe hard cases in some point, at some 596 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,439 Speaker 1: points that they tried to dope up with the truth 597 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: serum just got very, very high and then had the 598 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: best afternoon of their month. You know. Uh. In there 599 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 1: was a guy named George H. White, oss narcotics agent. 600 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: He was testing this substance on a mobster named august 601 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:31,320 Speaker 1: del Gracio little Aggie to his friends. Augie at Connections 602 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: with Lucky Luciado, and White said, Okay, I'm going to 603 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: meet up with del Gracio. We're not sure how he 604 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,800 Speaker 1: set this meet up, like what the context was, but 605 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 1: while he's hanging out with Little Aggie, he gives him, 606 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: he starts handing, you know, he's giving him these spiked cigarettes, 607 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 1: and he's listening as the gangster becomes very very high funny. 608 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,320 Speaker 1: He's like laughing. He's like ha ha ha, Georgie, you 609 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: get it. And then he chatted for two straight hours 610 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:05,760 Speaker 1: in depth about his drug trafficking network, and White said, Okay, 611 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,359 Speaker 1: this first experiment was a success, so how does science work. 612 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: Let's replicate it, right, Let's see if we can prove 613 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:17,239 Speaker 1: this is consistent. But they overdid it till Gracioga. He 614 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: just had too much. Man, he was out of his depth. Uh. 615 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: He apparently freaked out because he said he had pins 616 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,839 Speaker 1: and needles in his hands and feet and he had 617 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: to take a nap. He had to lie down for 618 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,360 Speaker 1: a nap. I feel like at this point they probably 619 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,760 Speaker 1: should have introduced some snacks and did he experiment. Dude, 620 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: imagine a pizza, Like what a pizza would have done 621 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,760 Speaker 1: at that moment. It could have It could have changed 622 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: the war. So, as you can see, in multiple cases, 623 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: there are some problems. There have been people waving flags 624 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: of concern about truth serum for quite a long time. 625 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: We're gonna pause for a word from our sponsor, and 626 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,360 Speaker 1: then we're gonna just articulate some of the problems that 627 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,399 Speaker 1: are already apparent, and some of the problems that will 628 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: continue to be important unfortunately in the future. Okay, So 629 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: the problem, plainly put, was that everybody testing this stuff 630 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 1: found again and again and again any number of substances, 631 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 1: including several stiff cocktails, could more often than not make 632 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 1: a person garrulous, talkative, fun forthcoming, warm and fuzzy. But 633 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 1: there were issues. I guess we just have to talk 634 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: about truth. What is truth? Can something be true for 635 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: one person but not be objectively true? I think we've 636 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: seen that very much so in action, just in events 637 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: like global political events and the way people think about 638 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: the world and how it functions. Something can be true 639 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: for one person. They can believe it to be true 640 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 1: even if it is not right. That's a big problem 641 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: because if you're interrogating someone who truly believes something is 642 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,320 Speaker 1: the truth, they and they tell that to you because 643 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: they're in that state and they want to tell it 644 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: to you. Um, it may not be correct or accurate, 645 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,680 Speaker 1: right right for an innocuous version. UM, Let's say there's 646 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: someone who really believes that Elvis Pressley faked his death 647 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: and is alive, right, or they believe that Tupac Shakur 648 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: faked his death and is alive. If you dope somewhat 649 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,319 Speaker 1: up with any of these substances and they're convinced that's 650 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,759 Speaker 1: the truth, then they're going to maintain that that viewpoint. 651 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:49,640 Speaker 1: It's their version of the truth. Second, dangerously, these substances 652 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 1: make a person highly suggestible. So look at it this way. 653 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 1: The racetrack of your brain is all all messed up. 654 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 1: You can't not only cannot walk a straight line, but 655 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: your brain is just pooped and says, I don't want 656 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: to do a lot of you know, thinky work. So 657 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,719 Speaker 1: you might end up saying whatever your question or wants 658 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 1: to hear, which we talked about. But then also you're 659 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: much more likely to yes. And you know, someone like 660 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: if if someone says, so that happened in uh August, right, 661 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 1: then your brain will just go, yeah, sure, August six? 662 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 1: Probably why not? Or when did that happen? I don't know. 663 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: I think it was August. I don't know, okay, because 664 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 1: earlier he said may did I it was probably that? 665 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:51,320 Speaker 1: Then you guys like music though, yeah, So, as we 666 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,359 Speaker 1: found in earlier episodes on the fallibility of memory, if 667 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: you take this to an extreme, it's possible to also 668 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 1: accidentally or purposely implant memories rather than uncovering them. Uh, 669 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,120 Speaker 1: there's much more to truth serum than just scopal amine 670 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 1: and sodium. Theopental spies lickering up marks. That's as old 671 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,640 Speaker 1: as the invention of wine. Con artists doing the same. 672 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,759 Speaker 1: Why it's you know, it's an old thing. Um. You know, 673 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 1: cults are also not above doing this to kind of 674 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,400 Speaker 1: break people's protective thought patterns down. So it's no surprise 675 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,920 Speaker 1: that intelligence services would do this. And it's weird that 676 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,239 Speaker 1: despite the conclusions of the OSS, the CIA went to 677 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 1: back to these concepts not once but several times. We 678 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,880 Speaker 1: talked about m k Ultra. We talked about Project art 679 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,040 Speaker 1: A Choke in the past. But long story short, Project 680 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,440 Speaker 1: ARTI Choke was trying to make this a brave new 681 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,520 Speaker 1: world sort of thing. They wanted to boldly go past 682 00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 1: getting people to tell the truth into a world where 683 00:45:55,560 --> 00:46:01,040 Speaker 1: they could get someone to do uh, actions that they 684 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 1: would not ordinarily do, even if they went against the 685 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:08,280 Speaker 1: ingrained law of self preservation which applies to most human beings. 686 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,640 Speaker 1: They said, can we leverage the effects of these things 687 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,000 Speaker 1: to create short or long term compulsions? And this is 688 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,759 Speaker 1: a This is something that haunts speculators today. We're not 689 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 1: going to spend too much time on it. Just check 690 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:27,840 Speaker 1: out our earlier episodes on Manchurion candidates. And of course, 691 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: as the years wound on, people found new purported truth 692 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: serones or substances that could have similar effects. And Matt, 693 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,520 Speaker 1: I know there are a couple that's stuck out with you, right, yeah. 694 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: One that I don't know struck my interest was Medazzy 695 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 1: lamb or Vers said. I think for said, is the 696 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,000 Speaker 1: the brand name of this substance. And it was used, 697 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,360 Speaker 1: you know, by someone who was going to put you 698 00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,439 Speaker 1: under for a surgery. Right, very commonly it was used 699 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:05,200 Speaker 1: for that. It was used for certain operations. And there 700 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: I think it's yes, it is. It's v Sauce, the 701 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:13,399 Speaker 1: very very popular YouTube channel. The host of that years 702 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,359 Speaker 1: ago subjected himself to an experiment where he was given 703 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,759 Speaker 1: medazzle M and so there were two people, one person 704 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:26,320 Speaker 1: interrogating him and another person who is administering the medication 705 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,880 Speaker 1: or the truth serum, and they were just increasing it 706 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,239 Speaker 1: little by little by little, and it was a very 707 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:38,240 Speaker 1: similar reaction to to what Mr Moseley experienced under sodium 708 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,880 Speaker 1: Thiopenthal and it's again attempting to keep up a ruse, 709 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,719 Speaker 1: but having more and more difficulty knowing what is the 710 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,240 Speaker 1: truth what is the ruse, and not caring and somewhere 711 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,880 Speaker 1: in the middle, it's not caring whether it's what, like 712 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 1: which version you're in, am I the fake version of me? 713 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:58,800 Speaker 1: Or am I the real version of me? It doesn't 714 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,239 Speaker 1: really matter um. But it was a fascinating video to 715 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,880 Speaker 1: watch because later on then the host of the sauce 716 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:07,440 Speaker 1: went on and I think he went on the H 717 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,760 Speaker 1: three h three podcast and actually talk to depth about 718 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: what the experience was like. I would recommend both of 719 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 1: those things. Yeah, agreed. And also, just to be clear, 720 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,080 Speaker 1: the a lot of agencies found one of the big 721 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: flaws with this stuff is that you could train operators 722 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,880 Speaker 1: to be much more resistant to this, to like recognize 723 00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:39,120 Speaker 1: signs of impending um intoxication and then kind of go 724 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,480 Speaker 1: back to like name, rank, serial number type stuff or 725 00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,560 Speaker 1: their version of that. So that's the lay of the land. 726 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:51,040 Speaker 1: There's not a Golden Goose truth serum yet, at least 727 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:56,600 Speaker 1: not one that's been released uh publicly. There have been 728 00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,400 Speaker 1: a lot of experiments with it. The KGB had a 729 00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 1: really interesting one by the way, called SP one seventeen, 730 00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:09,720 Speaker 1: which essentially like they had it down to a science, 731 00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:16,120 Speaker 1: a two dose science, so they would get within fifteen 732 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 1: minutes of getting that first dose, they would be in 733 00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,520 Speaker 1: their suggestible truth serum esque state, and then they would 734 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:31,040 Speaker 1: get the second dose and they they wouldn't remember anything. 735 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,360 Speaker 1: So the KGB guys had it like locked down like 736 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,799 Speaker 1: to where they could determine the interval of lost time, 737 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,520 Speaker 1: which is pretty neat but pretty scary, dare say, a 738 00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,239 Speaker 1: little bit unethical. Maybe that's a hot take on my part. 739 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:47,880 Speaker 1: Apparently it's not too much of a hot take, bat 740 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:53,640 Speaker 1: because as historian Alison Winter notes, and she's done a 741 00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,200 Speaker 1: lot of great work on the history of truth serums 742 00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,440 Speaker 1: or the search for she notes, these techniques have their 743 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:05,720 Speaker 1: glory days during initially during a time in which popular 744 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:10,959 Speaker 1: society thought objective science could combat things that they still 745 00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 1: saw as moral failings, corruption, crime, dishonesty, right, and still 746 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,239 Speaker 1: not very far away at all from the heyday of eugenics. 747 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:24,080 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of complicated stuff and objectionable stuff 748 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:29,840 Speaker 1: wrapped up in this. But the question of ethics becomes 749 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:34,920 Speaker 1: increasingly important to everybody, but intelligence agencies. They use this 750 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,560 Speaker 1: stuff well into the modern day. India has been known 751 00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:45,239 Speaker 1: to resort to brobituates injected during high profile investigations as 752 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:52,319 Speaker 1: recently as twenty ten, if not more recently, and at 753 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,880 Speaker 1: one is kind of a a pivot year for India 754 00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,120 Speaker 1: because the Supreme Court said, Okay, we can use m 755 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:06,239 Speaker 1: truth serum like techniques only if a subject consense. They 756 00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,400 Speaker 1: can't be forced to do this because if they're forced to, 757 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:14,920 Speaker 1: it's an unlawful intrusion on their personal liberty. Like I'm 758 00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:19,239 Speaker 1: only laughing at that because I'm thinking about enhanced interrogation 759 00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:23,200 Speaker 1: techniques that the US did right, and we're going to 760 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:24,959 Speaker 1: talk about that, I think here in a minute, because 761 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,799 Speaker 1: it's so funny to me, and I use the word 762 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:32,400 Speaker 1: funny on purpose. It's funny to me in an upsetting 763 00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:39,880 Speaker 1: manner that enhanced interrogation techniques would be valued over like 764 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:43,520 Speaker 1: this is okay, this is better than giving someone a 765 00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:48,200 Speaker 1: drug that makes them feel kind of drunk. Oh yeah, yeah, 766 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,520 Speaker 1: that's the idea. Actually, there was a lot of There 767 00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:55,680 Speaker 1: was a lot of debate in the US when CIA 768 00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:04,080 Speaker 1: doctors began recommending application of true serums because waterboarding proved 769 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,440 Speaker 1: to be in effective. Check out our earlier episodes on 770 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:11,719 Speaker 1: whether torture works spoiler not really so the I mean 771 00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,640 Speaker 1: it well, it's it's hard to prove that it would 772 00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:19,400 Speaker 1: work consistently, but all three of the current superpowers, Russia, 773 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,919 Speaker 1: the US, China have used these substances in the past 774 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:27,439 Speaker 1: to interrogate prisoners of war, spies, criminals, sometimes to vet 775 00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:32,200 Speaker 1: their own employees, and sometimes honestly shout out c I 776 00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,200 Speaker 1: A just to mess around, just see what would happen, 777 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,319 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Um, there's an excellent examination 778 00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:43,320 Speaker 1: of this and my heart original podcast that as a 779 00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,680 Speaker 1: fantastic team written writing it. It is hosted by our 780 00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:50,560 Speaker 1: pal Noel Brown. It's called Midnight Climax. Check that out. 781 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,120 Speaker 1: You'll get a little more information there about the U 782 00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,480 Speaker 1: S side and just how las fair lack of days 783 00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:58,320 Speaker 1: a boll and cowboy they were with a lot of 784 00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:03,839 Speaker 1: this stuff. Something's called Operation Midnight Climax. Operation Midnight Climax, Yes, 785 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,560 Speaker 1: which is the name of the operation which they really conducted. 786 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,800 Speaker 1: And can we also recommend Control Group? Yes? Yeah. Control Group, 787 00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,239 Speaker 1: by the one and only Brett Wood dives into that. 788 00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,440 Speaker 1: I would explore that in both season one and season 789 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: two available now full disclosure. That is something that Paul 790 00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:28,680 Speaker 1: Michigan Control Decant and I also worked on. It's pretty. 791 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,279 Speaker 1: It's pretty somber stuff and it's a hell of a 792 00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:35,600 Speaker 1: ride that neither may be appropriate for all audiences. Just 793 00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,520 Speaker 1: this might not be one for the kiddos, but it's fantastic. 794 00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:42,120 Speaker 1: It's the height of radio drama. So you might be asking, 795 00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:48,440 Speaker 1: why hasn't my job subjected me to a truth serum. Well, 796 00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,680 Speaker 1: there are a couple of reasons. First, the science is 797 00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:54,600 Speaker 1: pretty dodgy in terms of calling it to truth serum. 798 00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:59,200 Speaker 1: But secondly, the United Nations considers the use of truth 799 00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,880 Speaker 1: drugs to a form of abuse and therefore, with a 800 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,640 Speaker 1: lot of caveats, a form of torture. Check this out 801 00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,480 Speaker 1: right now. In international law, it is not illegal to 802 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,040 Speaker 1: give to give people truth syrup, but it is illegal 803 00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,840 Speaker 1: to threaten to give people truth syrup because of the 804 00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,840 Speaker 1: emotional distress it may cause. Has went hell of a loophole. 805 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,560 Speaker 1: Think about being a prisoner of war or something, and 806 00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,040 Speaker 1: you've been trained on how to you know, combat these things. 807 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,879 Speaker 1: As you said, Ben, you know how to revert back 808 00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,680 Speaker 1: to a state where you only give the most minimum 809 00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:40,520 Speaker 1: amount of information. About yourself. But the thought that you're 810 00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,640 Speaker 1: being given a drug that's going to force you to 811 00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,520 Speaker 1: do this to like, no matter what your training is, 812 00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:51,400 Speaker 1: that's pretty terrifying. No, your honor. To be clear, we 813 00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:55,000 Speaker 1: we didn't tell. We didn't tell them. We just slipped 814 00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,279 Speaker 1: in their drink. We just stuck them like, oh well, 815 00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:01,200 Speaker 1: case dismissed. God, I'm sorry. You still got some of 816 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:03,880 Speaker 1: the afternoon left. Go there's a great lunch spot down 817 00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:08,520 Speaker 1: the way. That's how casual the International Criminal Court is 818 00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:15,000 Speaker 1: that the US is not a part of and has 819 00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:19,040 Speaker 1: a law about storming the Hague uh in case someone 820 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,600 Speaker 1: someone tries to make the play ball. So this issue 821 00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:26,480 Speaker 1: comes up again in two thousand and two because there 822 00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:33,879 Speaker 1: were various authorities c I, A, FBI chiefs who are saying, look, 823 00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,719 Speaker 1: you know, we need to stop worrying about ethics. We 824 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,160 Speaker 1: have a greater good argument. We need these narco analysis 825 00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:45,440 Speaker 1: or truth serum drugs applied now. And Donald Rumsfeld, who 826 00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:49,399 Speaker 1: was the Secretary of Defense at the time, said, look, 827 00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:53,440 Speaker 1: this stuff is not used by the US military, it's 828 00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:58,279 Speaker 1: not used by intelligence personnel. Other countries have definitely done 829 00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,600 Speaker 1: it with some measure of success. And the interrogation of 830 00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:05,640 Speaker 1: suspected terrorists. Um. But also there are other things that 831 00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,680 Speaker 1: are happening now in answer to why hasn't my job 832 00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:12,799 Speaker 1: administered truth serum to me? They don't really need to, right. 833 00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,400 Speaker 1: Depending on what your profession is and what kind of 834 00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:19,600 Speaker 1: vetting is required, there's probably you might have an outdated, 835 00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:24,920 Speaker 1: um pseudo scientific thing applied, like a polygraph test or 836 00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:28,719 Speaker 1: a lie detector. Uh. Those are mainly a way for 837 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:32,080 Speaker 1: the interpreter to try to gauge your reactions. There's not 838 00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:35,560 Speaker 1: real science to it. Um. And then there's the idea 839 00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,640 Speaker 1: of brain scans. Your your brain activity will indicate when 840 00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:44,160 Speaker 1: you are telling something deceitful or telling something truthful. That 841 00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,680 Speaker 1: technology asm and widely rolled out yet, but it's on 842 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,280 Speaker 1: the way. So the idea of an injectable truth serum 843 00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,200 Speaker 1: may go the way of the DODO on its own. 844 00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:54,680 Speaker 1: But for right now, which you need to know, folks, 845 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:59,000 Speaker 1: is while there are no laws specifically banning truth serum 846 00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,239 Speaker 1: in the US, you can literally go and buy sodium 847 00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:04,920 Speaker 1: THEO penton all. Now, it's kind of expensive, but I 848 00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,120 Speaker 1: found a bottle. I put it in the in our 849 00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:13,800 Speaker 1: notes here. Uh, it's still pretty much functionally or I 850 00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,240 Speaker 1: don't know. It's useless for a lot of the things 851 00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:20,880 Speaker 1: people wanted to do, and it's functionally in practice illegal 852 00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:26,320 Speaker 1: or forbidden until that moment someone comes along with a 853 00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:30,120 Speaker 1: greater good argument. And when that happens, boom boom boom. 854 00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:33,240 Speaker 1: The game continues. And it might happen in a time 855 00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:35,960 Speaker 1: of political unrest. There might be a politician who was 856 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,120 Speaker 1: suspected of being deceitful and then you know, they get 857 00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:41,880 Speaker 1: an interrogation order. That's a lot of red meat for 858 00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,960 Speaker 1: the political opponents. Um, but we'll see. You know, you're 859 00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,200 Speaker 1: always one greater good argument away from terrible, terrible things. 860 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,640 Speaker 1: Very much so in that line, please do yourself a 861 00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:58,000 Speaker 1: favor and search for Project Medication. It's gonna be hard 862 00:57:58,000 --> 00:57:59,640 Speaker 1: to find a lot of stuff on it. You can 863 00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,640 Speaker 1: find a CBS article and several other write ups, but 864 00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:05,560 Speaker 1: it's it has to do with that thing I kind 865 00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,360 Speaker 1: of mentioned there where the CIA and the government, the 866 00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:13,760 Speaker 1: United States government was weighing enhanced interrogation torture techniques versus 867 00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:18,040 Speaker 1: using these truth serums as ways to get information out 868 00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:22,480 Speaker 1: of captured combatants. UH. Worth your time, and at this 869 00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:26,520 Speaker 1: point we hope you enjoyed today's episode went a little long, 870 00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,640 Speaker 1: but to tell you the truth, there's not there's some 871 00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:32,560 Speaker 1: stuff we still didn't get to UH, and we don't 872 00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:35,600 Speaker 1: need scope a. I mean to UH to know that 873 00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,160 Speaker 1: for a fact, we want to hear what you think, 874 00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:44,600 Speaker 1: UH is. Should truth serums, if one were ever discovered, 875 00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:47,280 Speaker 1: like a silver bullet truth show should be allowed to 876 00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:52,000 Speaker 1: be used. Is it possible that some organization has discovered 877 00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:55,520 Speaker 1: something like that and immediately knew not to make a 878 00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,680 Speaker 1: public or declassify it. Can't wait to hear your thoughts, 879 00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:02,000 Speaker 1: can't wait to see the memes that will inevitably come 880 00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:04,840 Speaker 1: from conversations like this. We try to be easy to 881 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,480 Speaker 1: find online Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, all the hits, all the 882 00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:10,840 Speaker 1: good ones, all the slow jazz. UH And if you 883 00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,520 Speaker 1: don't sip the social needs, or if you live in 884 00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,440 Speaker 1: a country that doesn't allow you to play on those playgrounds, 885 00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:19,080 Speaker 1: there are two other ways to get in contact with us. 886 00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,760 Speaker 1: We always recommend giving us a call. Yes, our number 887 00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:26,640 Speaker 1: is one eight three three std w y t K. 888 00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,840 Speaker 1: When you call in, it's a voicemail system, so leave 889 00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:32,720 Speaker 1: a message. Please give us a cool name, whatever you 890 00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,080 Speaker 1: want to call yourself. We're down with it. Um, you've 891 00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,200 Speaker 1: got three minutes say whatever you'd like. Please let us 892 00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:41,520 Speaker 1: know if we can use your voice and message on 893 00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,400 Speaker 1: the air in one of our listener mail episodes. If 894 00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,320 Speaker 1: you've got more to say than can fit in that 895 00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:49,160 Speaker 1: three minutes, why not instead give us a good old 896 00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:53,439 Speaker 1: fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i heeart radio dot com. 897 01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:13,480 Speaker 1: M m hm, stuff they don't want you to know. 898 01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:16,720 Speaker 1: Is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts 899 01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:18,960 Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 900 01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:21,920 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.