Speaker 1: This is the Anxiety Bites podcast, and I am your host,
Speaker 1: Jen Kirkman. Welcome to Anxiety Bites. I am your host
Speaker 1: Jen Kirkman. Now, if you do not have anxiety, this
Speaker 1: is the episode for you, because there are certain truths
Speaker 1: that every human must face or must accept, scientific truths.
Speaker 1: You have a nervous system. It doesn't mean you're nervous,
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean anything. It means you have a nervous system.
Speaker 1: It is the thing that informs your brain of how
Speaker 1: your body is feeling. To put it very I don't know, stupidly,
Speaker 1: I guess you know, non scientifically, but our nervous systems
Speaker 1: connect with other people's nervous systems. You can you can
Speaker 1: tell this by the way you feel with working with others,
Speaker 1: living with others, in any kind of relationship with another person,
Speaker 1: our nervous systems are always doing a subconscious sniffing out.
Speaker 1: And when we become conscious of what's going on, we
Speaker 1: might say things like that person annoyed me, or they
Speaker 1: have a good vibe, or they're not validating me. I
Speaker 1: feel unsafe, you know, or I must run. This really
Speaker 1: feels dangerous. Even when we're talking about attachment styles in
Speaker 1: love All of this comes back to our nervous systems
Speaker 1: are always kind of sussing out the situation, and there
Speaker 1: are times when we may not be regulated. So what
Speaker 1: dev and I talked about is an example of a therapist.
Speaker 1: So if you're in therapy for whatever reason and your
Speaker 1: therapist comes running in, Oh my god, traffic was bad,
Speaker 1: and you know she's spilling coffee, and she sits down
Speaker 1: that her nervous system in that moment's unregulated. She can
Speaker 1: get it regulated in a few minutes, but you're being
Speaker 1: met with an unregulated energy, which is really not what
Speaker 1: you're paying for, right, So how many times a day
Speaker 1: are we just letting it fly unregulated around others without
Speaker 1: realizing it affects them and now they have to regulate.
Speaker 1: And now if you're in relation, they may need to coregulate,
Speaker 1: which is to kind of help you on a subconscious
Speaker 1: level chill the funk out as they maintain their boundary
Speaker 1: and they're regulating. Now, I'm probably not saying any of
Speaker 1: this correctly, So that's why we're just gonna take it
Speaker 1: to deb Dana. But again, if you do not have anxiety,
Speaker 1: this episode will fascinate you because it's all about how
Speaker 1: the human brain works and how our nervous system informs
Speaker 1: our brain about what we think about certain situations, and
Speaker 1: a lot of times our brain might get it wrong.
Speaker 1: And so what we have to do in those situations
Speaker 1: is say, I know I'm not in any real danger.
Speaker 1: Why am I so triggered or annoyed about this? And
Speaker 1: even if you never figure it out, there's a way
Speaker 1: to begin to regulate your nervous system. And it starts
Speaker 1: with curiosity, and Deb takes me through something that I
Speaker 1: think will be a really good example for you of
Speaker 1: a situation I found myself in recently. How it makes
Speaker 1: me feel. Deb explains what's going on in my nervous
Speaker 1: system that I wasn't aware of, and then she shows
Speaker 1: me how to regulate. Again. I find this all very fascinating.
Speaker 1: We only scratch the surface, but let's just get there.
Speaker 1: Let's just get to my interview with Deb Dana. Deb
Speaker 1: Dana l c SW as a clinician and consultant specializing
Speaker 1: in working with complex trump. She is one of the
Speaker 1: founders of the poly Vagel Institute dot Org. Deb developed
Speaker 1: the Rhythm of Regulation clinical training series and lectures internationally
Speaker 1: on ways that polyvagel theory informs work with trauma survivors,
Speaker 1: and we do talk a little bit about trauma survivors
Speaker 1: as well towards the end of the episode. Deb is
Speaker 1: the author of tons of books. A lot of them
Speaker 1: are for clinicians therapists, but her newest book is really
Speaker 1: for the everyday person and it teaches you everything that
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about in this episode and more
Speaker 1: about how to anchor your nervous system. Again, you don't
Speaker 1: have to have anxiety for this to be a thing.
Speaker 1: Her new book is called Anchored, How to be Friend
Speaker 1: your Nervous System using poly vengel Theory. It came out
Speaker 1: in so I talked to the by the way beautifully
Speaker 1: regulated Deb Dana. She's regulated. I'm coming and regulated. She's
Speaker 1: got good vibes. This is a super fun chill I think,
Speaker 1: very calming conversation. So please enjoy my chat with the
Speaker 1: very regulated Deb Dana. When I'm looking at the book Anchored,
Speaker 1: it seems different than some of your other work and
Speaker 1: that it's real, really geared towards the lay person. And
Speaker 1: I'd love to know your thoughts and why it is
Speaker 1: so important that everybody, not just smarty pants people who
Speaker 1: study this we're living. Why everybody needs to understand our
Speaker 1: nervous systems, and as you say, how to befriend your
Speaker 1: nervous system using polyvagal theory wise is important. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's a lovely place to begin. And I loved
Speaker 1: it when you said, you know, nervous systems connected globally,
Speaker 1: because I do think this is such a fascinating time
Speaker 1: to be thinking about about that. So I just wanted
Speaker 1: to stop there for a minute and take that in
Speaker 1: that you know, we're connected nervous system to nervous system
Speaker 1: around the world. This is a fascinating thing to to
Speaker 1: to think about and one of the reasons why I
Speaker 1: think every human should understand how this part of our
Speaker 1: biology works. Right, the nervous system is the common denominator
Speaker 1: and our human experience, we all have one. It works
Speaker 1: along these three basic organizing principles that Steve Forre just
Speaker 1: developed in polyvagal theory. And you know, I you know,
Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a clinician, and so I've written a
Speaker 1: lot for other clinicians, and then you know, really want
Speaker 1: to write for what I call curious human beings, right,
Speaker 1: the general audience, because in my work as a therapist,
Speaker 1: I really believe that part of my job is to
Speaker 1: help my clients understand what's happening so that they can
Speaker 1: manage the the everyday experiences and the ordinary ones and
Speaker 1: even some of the more extraordinary ones without depending on
Speaker 1: me as a therapist. They understand how their nervous system
Speaker 1: works so that they could begin to work with it,
Speaker 1: because that's what we do. We have to understand how
Speaker 1: something works so that we can begin to then shape
Speaker 1: it in in the way we want. So that's really
Speaker 1: my reason for writing Anchored and for for moving out
Speaker 1: into a more general audience, because you know where this
Speaker 1: sort of is the the car we're driving through life, right,
Speaker 1: and we should understand how it works. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think I think that's part of our our our
Speaker 1: human responsibility is to understand why am I behaving this way,
Speaker 1: responding this way, thinking this way? How am I in
Speaker 1: this story? Because if I understand how I got here,
Speaker 1: then I can understand how to move out of here
Speaker 1: and find another more regulated place. So that's I think
Speaker 1: the call to action is to understand and to be
Speaker 1: responsible for our nervous systems as we move through the world.
Speaker 1: I'm always trying to appeal to the listener that doesn't
Speaker 1: have anxiety but likes to check in with this show
Speaker 1: because people can learn so much about their brains, their emotions,
Speaker 1: their bodies by the people that I interview. And so
Speaker 1: to the person without anxiety, who might think, well, you know,
Speaker 1: that's great nervous system, that's for the nervous people. How
Speaker 1: does the nervous system come into in everyday life for everybody,
Speaker 1: not even those of us with anxiety? And sometimes I
Speaker 1: think it's a these days, a name that can make
Speaker 1: people turn a deaf ear they hear nervous system. I
Speaker 1: think they think it's for nervous people. As you said,
Speaker 1: we all have one. And so how give me an
Speaker 1: everyday example. I don't know a family mom, dad, kids,
Speaker 1: mom mom kids whatever, or a couple living together, or
Speaker 1: people at work, how does knowing about your nervous system
Speaker 1: help the every day that has really nothing to do
Speaker 1: with like they have anxiety and that kind of thing. So,
Speaker 1: you know what, we think it's our brains that are
Speaker 1: are running the show, But in fact what happens is
Speaker 1: the nervous system, through the pathways that travel to the brain,
Speaker 1: send information about what's happening in your body to your brain,
Speaker 1: and then it's the brain's job to make up a
Speaker 1: story that makes some kind of sense about what's happening
Speaker 1: in the body. Doesn't matter if it's anxiety, if it's overwhelmed,
Speaker 1: if it's depression, or if it's regulation and safety and
Speaker 1: calm and happiness. The brain then makes up a story, right, So,
Speaker 1: so I think it's important for us to understand where
Speaker 1: the stories come from the state your The state of
Speaker 1: your nervous system creates the story. It's the platform for
Speaker 1: the story. So you know, our nervous systems, yours and mine,
Speaker 1: met about ten minutes ago, and our nervous systems are
Speaker 1: getting to know each other. We're getting to know each
Speaker 1: other through our conversation. But our nervous systems are having
Speaker 1: an experience as well, and that happens moment to moment
Speaker 1: as we move through life on a level below the brain.
Speaker 1: Nervous system to nervous system, we are making a decision
Speaker 1: is it safe to connect or not? And that has
Speaker 1: nothing to do with anxiety or depression, you know, anger
Speaker 1: or fear doesn't matter, right, It is all about what
Speaker 1: are the cues that are of the systems are sending
Speaker 1: to each other. They're communicating, and that's called neuroception in
Speaker 1: the world of of the nervous system, and neuroception is
Speaker 1: this way the nervous system listens, and it listens inside
Speaker 1: our bodies. So it's early morning here, it's my nervous
Speaker 1: systems listening to you know, how am I digesting what
Speaker 1: I've had so far? What's my heart rate, what's my
Speaker 1: breath like? Right, what's happening in my viscera? And out
Speaker 1: of that information, it's making a judgment is this a
Speaker 1: safe time or an unsafe time? And then it listens
Speaker 1: in the environment. Right. So we just I just had
Speaker 1: a ding from my message because I hadn't turned on
Speaker 1: do not disturb, right, So the environmental cue was one
Speaker 1: of danger, Oh my gosh, you know we're doing this
Speaker 1: podcast in my thing. Just think that was like, right,
Speaker 1: And then you said, oh, don't worry, we can edit
Speaker 1: that out. And immediately in this space between the two
Speaker 1: of us, I felt a welcome and a and a
Speaker 1: sense of safety. Right. So it has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with whether I have anxiety or I'm an anxious person.
Speaker 1: It simply is this flow that we are always in
Speaker 1: um in that inside outside and between neuroceptive experience. This
Speaker 1: is great. So and and you know, to everyone listening,
Speaker 1: we're not in studio together, right, We're over a zoom
Speaker 1: type situation. So I'm assuming, I mean, I know the answers,
Speaker 1: I read your book, but I'm assuming the nervous system
Speaker 1: can communicate even across zoom. And can you tell us
Speaker 1: how that would be happening without I know, as you said,
Speaker 1: my words, we're very comforting because I'm a great person.
Speaker 1: But how are our nervous systems communicating wordlessly without even
Speaker 1: being in the same room, right, right? And so you're
Speaker 1: saying I'm a great person, you're talking to my brain.
Speaker 1: But your your tone of voice, the look on your face,
Speaker 1: the smile, that the engagement with your eyes, the way
Speaker 1: you lean forward to connect, that's communicated by nervous system, right,
Speaker 1: And that's that's the experience. So through our eyes, through
Speaker 1: our our prosody, our tone of voice, through our our
Speaker 1: head movements, through our ears, how we take in information.
Speaker 1: These are wired in to our biology. Right. So it's
Speaker 1: not the words you're saying, it's the way you're saying them.
Speaker 1: And we know that we've heard that all along. But
Speaker 1: now we have the science underneath it to say yes,
Speaker 1: it's your your intonation, it's your prosody, and if that
Speaker 1: feels welcoming to my nervous system, then I'm going to
Speaker 1: tune into the information and the words. But if it doesn't,
Speaker 1: if if for some reason, your tone of voice or
Speaker 1: the look on your face, you know, or the way
Speaker 1: you move is feels unsafe to my nervous system, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to listen to you. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: be able to. Not that I don't want to, but
Speaker 1: my biology is going to say no, not safe. And
Speaker 1: that happens all the time when we're connecting with people,
Speaker 1: right we don't do you get sometimes like a gut
Speaker 1: feeling about somebody. I don't know why, but I don't
Speaker 1: really want to hang around with this person. Or I
Speaker 1: don't know why, but I really want to spend more
Speaker 1: time with this person. Yeah, and you know it's there's
Speaker 1: an article, very unscientific article. Um what it's saying can
Speaker 1: be scientifically proven that the article is a little more
Speaker 1: you know, just fun that I read a few weeks
Speaker 1: ago about why some people just rub us the wrong
Speaker 1: way and someone else, you know, might say that, oh
Speaker 1: my god, that's the greatest guy ever. And I had
Speaker 1: this experience recently. Um, I don't want to say in listening,
Speaker 1: but I'll just say. It's a work situation where someone
Speaker 1: at my job and they actually don't work in our company.
Speaker 1: They work outside of our company, but they have to
Speaker 1: come in once a day to do something COVID related. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm just exposing it. And this person annoys me. And
Speaker 1: it is the words they say. Sometimes they don't say
Speaker 1: offensive words, but they just they just have kind of
Speaker 1: an awkward, joking around style that I find aggressive. And
Speaker 1: everyone else loves this person, and I at I'm not
Speaker 1: joking when I say it. I get physical anxiety, not
Speaker 1: overwhelming like I need to, you know, lay down, but
Speaker 1: I do get a tense My shoulders go up thinking
Speaker 1: about I've got to see name redacted this morning and
Speaker 1: in a minute, and I actually feel physically nervous. Now,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's because I have anxiety and I've
Speaker 1: had a history panic disorder. I think I would be
Speaker 1: that way even if I were an anxiety free person,
Speaker 1: right right, because their their cues of warning that his
Speaker 1: nervous system sends to your nervous system and our nervous
Speaker 1: systems are shaped by our lived experience. Right, So there's
Speaker 1: something in that person's way of being that is a
Speaker 1: familiar cue of danger to your nervous system and it
Speaker 1: enacts this heightened activated response. Right. I had the same
Speaker 1: um experience with a colleague who my brain knew he
Speaker 1: was a very skilled clinician and that he was good
Speaker 1: at what he did, but when we were in team meetings,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to argue with him all the time.
Speaker 1: And I could not figure out what that was, right
Speaker 1: until I was able to take a step back and
Speaker 1: really sit with my nervous system and see what's happening.
Speaker 1: And there was a way he moved and in a
Speaker 1: posture and in a look to his presence that reminded
Speaker 1: me of someone from my past. So it had nothing
Speaker 1: to do with him at all, but but my nervous
Speaker 1: system just felt the familiar cues, and then here I
Speaker 1: was fighting with him all time. Right. And once I,
Speaker 1: once I could get that that awareness, then I could change.
Speaker 1: My nervous system still had that response, but I could
Speaker 1: then my brain could say, oh, not fill in the blank,
Speaker 1: and then I could relax. Okay, So that's an interesting point.
Speaker 1: So even you figure out why you have this urge
Speaker 1: to argue with someone that you know is skilled. Once
Speaker 1: you figure that out, you still might have that physical
Speaker 1: nervous system reaction even if you're not like feeling it
Speaker 1: so strongly. But you can now make a decision as
Speaker 1: someone with a brain right to not argue. Right, the
Speaker 1: brain can get the information might still be the same
Speaker 1: a less intense body response, but the brain can make
Speaker 1: up a different story. So for you, the question would be,
Speaker 1: as you think back in your history, what are the
Speaker 1: familiar cues that this person gives off? And then to
Speaker 1: kind of explore, Okay, what is it? Right? Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I think with this person, I don't for right now,
Speaker 1: I cannot think of someone specific in my life, but
Speaker 1: it reminds me of just a pattern of a type
Speaker 1: of person that when they're anxious or nervous, they make jokes,
Speaker 1: they may have some boundary problems, and those people make
Speaker 1: me just feel icky. But now my brain just has
Speaker 1: to make a choice too. I don't know whatever it's
Speaker 1: going to do, send love and compassion or just say, Jen,
Speaker 1: you know you don't have to physically get anxious this
Speaker 1: this person's no threat and you knew this, but just
Speaker 1: saying it to myself, maybe trying to make it more fun.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe I come in with a different attitude
Speaker 1: and I say something to you know, I don't let
Speaker 1: him start the conversation I come in because it's literally
Speaker 1: a I'm not joking when I say a two minute
Speaker 1: interaction every morning. It's it's just taking a COVID test.
Speaker 1: But but how how hard for your biology to have
Speaker 1: that two minute experience every day? And so we want
Speaker 1: to not have to do that. So as you you know,
Speaker 1: you can pre plan because you can think about oh okay,
Speaker 1: and you can feel that move into activation, which is
Speaker 1: sympathetic nervous system that fight and flight a little lengths
Speaker 1: a dy angers is in sympathetic right. You can feel
Speaker 1: that activating, and you can turn towards it. This is
Speaker 1: the befriending piece. You can turn towards that experience with
Speaker 1: a bit of curiosity and say, oh, I hear that,
Speaker 1: you know, um, and I wonder what else we could
Speaker 1: do this morning. You know, there's a discernment question that
Speaker 1: I use, UM, which I think is really helpful because
Speaker 1: we all have these experiences that make no sense. There's
Speaker 1: an overreaction or an underreaction. So the discernment question, is
Speaker 1: in this moment, in this place with this person, is
Speaker 1: this level of response or this response needed, And so
Speaker 1: you just ask yourself that question. That's inviting your brain
Speaker 1: to partner with your nervous system to be curious about that.
Speaker 1: And sometimes the answer is yeah, I do think it's needed.
Speaker 1: But most of the time, for for many of us,
Speaker 1: it's no, probably that that intensity response does not needed. Okay,
Speaker 1: And then I can partner with my nervousness and say
Speaker 1: thank you for minding me about this pattern that I find. Um,
Speaker 1: what word would you say? That I find difficult or
Speaker 1: just annoying annoying around you? Yeah? Right, thank you for
Speaker 1: reminding me about this pattern that I find annoying. And
Speaker 1: I'm going to anchor in that place of regulation, which
Speaker 1: is ventral in this place of regulations, so that I
Speaker 1: can meet this moment without having to disrupt the flow
Speaker 1: of my day. And and I don't mean to you
Speaker 1: harp on this situation too much, but it's it's bringing
Speaker 1: up for me all of the ways that our nervous
Speaker 1: systems are interconnected. So in my past, before I've done
Speaker 1: a lot of work on myself, I was a little
Speaker 1: more of a reactionary person. To put it mildly, so
Speaker 1: say gen one point. Oh may have not reacted to
Speaker 1: him in front of him, but I would have gone two,
Speaker 1: I mean zero to a million with a story in
Speaker 1: my head after my interaction with him, which would have
Speaker 1: gone something like, my life is hard enough and I
Speaker 1: have to do this first thing in the morning instead
Speaker 1: of blah and being mingming ming ming, and it somehow
Speaker 1: would have gone into how my life sucks and I'm
Speaker 1: not getting what I want in life, in relationships and work.
Speaker 1: I mean, it would have just gone out of control.
Speaker 1: And then I bring that energy to my coworkers. And
Speaker 1: that is what I mean by I heard you say
Speaker 1: that our nervous systems are all interconnected. So now my
Speaker 1: coworkers have to have a nervous system to brain response
Speaker 1: about I'm coming in hot, you know, after this thing
Speaker 1: that really could have dissipated by now. And so I
Speaker 1: think that's is that like a responsibility in a way
Speaker 1: that we all have. They always say, you know, if
Speaker 1: everyone meditated, the world will be a better police. It's
Speaker 1: sort of like if everyone could self regulate and just
Speaker 1: or not take get that way, self regulate or coregulate
Speaker 1: you could still come in hot as you call it.
Speaker 1: You could come in and that sympathetically mobilized chaotic energy
Speaker 1: which their nervous systems are they're going to feel through neuroception,
Speaker 1: but they could understand, oh, I know this is a
Speaker 1: tough thing for Jen every morning, and they could meet
Speaker 1: you with regulation and then you would coregulate back to regulation.
Speaker 1: So it's not simply self regulation. Coregulation is so important, right,
Speaker 1: that's the third organizing principle. We have neuroception we talked about.
Speaker 1: We have hierarchy that we touched on briefly. It gets
Speaker 1: that regulated ventral, it's the sympathetic anxiety anger, and it's
Speaker 1: the dorsal which I don't know if you go there
Speaker 1: that that collapse disconnect, right, and too that's a hierarchy.
Speaker 1: And then we have coregulation. We humans need to have
Speaker 1: other humans to coregulate with. And so that morning, you know,
Speaker 1: test is not a coregulating moment for you. Where is
Speaker 1: a coregulating moment that you can have either before or
Speaker 1: after it. That's really what we're looking for. And this
Speaker 1: brings up so many things about relationships, friendships, romantic relationships, whatever,
Speaker 1: where if you are with good people that you can trust, right,
Speaker 1: they will co regulate with you. So it's absolutely true,
Speaker 1: I hope in a non dumping things on them way.
Speaker 1: I have tried to make it funny and told my
Speaker 1: work friends, I don't want this guy annoys me and
Speaker 1: it's it's sort of a funny joke. They tease me
Speaker 1: about it and it's fun, but they do know that
Speaker 1: it actually does touch off something where uh, for me,
Speaker 1: it's just about like I'll give you so that people
Speaker 1: don't think I'm completely out of my mind and this
Speaker 1: is completely out of nowhere. But in my other life,
Speaker 1: I'm a stand up comedian and this person found out
Speaker 1: so for me, a lot of times when men find
Speaker 1: out I'm a comedian, they whatever they do, it makes
Speaker 1: them want to be funny, and that's fine. I don't
Speaker 1: need that. I'm not really interested in people being funny
Speaker 1: around me. And it is a thing where I can
Speaker 1: get very angry at men because I think it's a
Speaker 1: gendered thing. I think sometimes they try to be funnier
Speaker 1: than the woman to prove themselves, and I think some
Speaker 1: most people have a tendency to go mean with their humor.
Speaker 1: So he might make fun of what I'm wearing. It's
Speaker 1: that kind of thing where it's like, oh, he's representing
Speaker 1: this cultural force that I'm very exhausted by. And so
Speaker 1: my friends at work understand there's actually something kind of
Speaker 1: deeper underneath this. But you know, they're also not going
Speaker 1: to coddle me because I need to handle my ship.
Speaker 1: So so it's this wonderful coregulation that I get from
Speaker 1: them where they're like, I'm sorry, but then we laugh
Speaker 1: about it, right, And it is fascinating what you just
Speaker 1: you know, talked about because your nervous system um is
Speaker 1: responding to this other nervous system and then from that
Speaker 1: state of um sympathetic, a bit of it felt like
Speaker 1: a bit of anger along with the anxiety. So that's
Speaker 1: simple because sympathetic survival has those twin pathways of anger
Speaker 1: and anxiety both our survival responses. And when we enter
Speaker 1: into a sympathetic state of anger anxiety a survival state,
Speaker 1: we enter into a certain survival story and we began
Speaker 1: to hear the survival story that comes along with that state.
Speaker 1: For you about about larger than this person, right, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so you know, one of the things that's interesting
Speaker 1: to do is if you can get to a place
Speaker 1: where you're feeling regulated and anchored, in ventral in that
Speaker 1: place of curiosity, right to to turn toward the morning
Speaker 1: experience from that anchor, from curiosity, from um, you know,
Speaker 1: where they're different stories can emerge and what's the story
Speaker 1: that you hear? Then? Right, because it's a very different
Speaker 1: story and and you know, as it just comes to
Speaker 1: mind what the story could be, it's nothing to do
Speaker 1: with me. I'm not in that story. My curiosity goes, well,
Speaker 1: maybe he's just you know, excited to be here, and
Speaker 1: you know, it's just trying to he he doesn't know me,
Speaker 1: so he's just going to make an assumption like, well,
Speaker 1: she probably likes funny people. So I'm just gonna try
Speaker 1: to make her COVID test a fun experience because I'm
Speaker 1: a nice person. So look at that. I mean, what
Speaker 1: a different story it is, right, So, and and that's
Speaker 1: what we do. The experience does not change, right, You
Speaker 1: still going to get the code test. Yeah, but depending
Speaker 1: on what nervous system state you're in, the story is
Speaker 1: very different. And so could I then start to change
Speaker 1: my nervous system and that if I come in with
Speaker 1: that story that I got to by looking at it
Speaker 1: in a curious way. Could that actually change? I know
Speaker 1: you say it may not change, like we may still
Speaker 1: come in and have that nervous system response, but could
Speaker 1: that change with my brain doing a different story. So
Speaker 1: so we do it the other way. So what I
Speaker 1: want you to do before you go in for the
Speaker 1: COVID test is find a way to anchor in ventral,
Speaker 1: find your way to regulation, because then organically your feelings,
Speaker 1: your behaviors, your stories come along with it. And that's
Speaker 1: why I want to get into what we're saying when
Speaker 1: you say ventral, endorsal and all that, which is you know,
Speaker 1: funny where I meant to start. But sometimes interviews I
Speaker 1: just they go their own way. And what I loved
Speaker 1: about this, and I'm sorry to the listener if you
Speaker 1: think I was trying to have my own personal therapy
Speaker 1: session with deb. I like to give these real life
Speaker 1: examples to show what could seem like the most meaningless,
Speaker 1: little moment, not that it's such a big deal, but
Speaker 1: it just illustrates how many times a day we have
Speaker 1: that with other people. And the coregulation is so important
Speaker 1: because we need to um. I want to ask you
Speaker 1: more about that later if we get to it in
Speaker 1: terms of like when people meet romantically for the first time,
Speaker 1: and how the nervous system can be a little wonky there.
Speaker 1: But so let's get into like what the poly Vagel
Speaker 1: theory is. So you're saying, our nervous system has three
Speaker 1: parts to it, and and can you tell us those
Speaker 1: three parts? So we have these three states, we have ventral,
Speaker 1: sympathetic endorsal, and that's called the autonomic hierarchy for listeners
Speaker 1: who want that term. That the brilliant thing about the
Speaker 1: hierarchy again that Steve um Poor just when he developed
Speaker 1: poly Vagel theory helped us understand, is that we move
Speaker 1: through these states in a particular way, right, it's not random, right,
Speaker 1: and our our our biology are nervous system really longs
Speaker 1: to be in a state of regulation, safety and connection.
Speaker 1: That sort of the energy is is flowing. That's called
Speaker 1: ventral ventral ventral um. And in ventral we have access
Speaker 1: to everything from zen like calm to passion, play, alert,
Speaker 1: excited um. And that the thing that helps us understand
Speaker 1: ventral is again we go back to neuroception. The neuro
Speaker 1: sption is one of feeling safe enough, right, So it's
Speaker 1: a it's a neuro sption of I'm okay. And when
Speaker 1: neuro sption is in this bringing us cues of welcome
Speaker 1: or safety. Our state is one of ventral and from
Speaker 1: ventral um we can connect, communicate, we can see possibilities,
Speaker 1: we can solve problems, we can move through the world
Speaker 1: um in a way that that feels organized, that we
Speaker 1: have purpose, we have passion, all of these wonderful things. Right,
Speaker 1: nervous system longs to be there, I think inherently knows
Speaker 1: how to bring us to that place. What happens for
Speaker 1: many of us is that traumatic experiences or ongoing UM
Speaker 1: danger in the world covers up those pathways, so they're
Speaker 1: harder to find and they're harder to travel. Those pathways,
Speaker 1: but they exist inside all of us. And so when
Speaker 1: my work as a therapist, I'm not creating something new
Speaker 1: with my clients, were uncovering what's already there, you know.
Speaker 1: So for everybody in the world, your pathway home to
Speaker 1: ventral exists inside your biology. And I think that's a
Speaker 1: really reassuring thing to understand, right right, It's not like,
Speaker 1: you know, if you were born with early challenged trauma,
Speaker 1: or you experienced trauma as a young kid, it's not like, um,
Speaker 1: you were born without a kidney. It's not a thing
Speaker 1: you don't have, right, It's just a thing you don't
Speaker 1: have access to, or you don't feel like you have
Speaker 1: access to. It's less easy to access, probably because the
Speaker 1: other thing I do want to say is that in
Speaker 1: the course of every day, we have these micro moments
Speaker 1: of ventral, micro moments of of okayness, right, which I
Speaker 1: call blimbers, and we want to be looking for of
Speaker 1: those glimmers. And even in the most trauma saturated life
Speaker 1: or the most dangerous world, there is a micro moment,
Speaker 1: there is a glimmer that will appear. And I think
Speaker 1: that's really lovely for people to be on the lookout for.
Speaker 1: And it's reminder that this amazing thing that is our
Speaker 1: nervous system can hold all of the trauma and all
Speaker 1: of those experiences and see a see a glimmer. Right,
Speaker 1: it's a both end, it's a it's a really helpful
Speaker 1: thing to remember that that, yes, this is a really
Speaker 1: hard day for me, and and and I am overwhelmed
Speaker 1: and oh a bird just I just heard a bird sing, right,
Speaker 1: And I could take that in So that that's important
Speaker 1: because our two survival states, which are the other two
Speaker 1: parts of the hierarchy. Sympathetic and dorsal sympathetic we've talked about.
Speaker 1: You know, for people with anxiety, sympathetic is probably very familiar.
Speaker 1: It's a place of fight and flight, of of you know,
Speaker 1: anxiety to panic attack, you know, this whole continuum and
Speaker 1: anger from you know, frustration to rage. Right, it's a
Speaker 1: survival response, and we want to remember that when it
Speaker 1: first activated for us, it was very adaptive. It may
Speaker 1: not be so adaptive now in the moment, which is
Speaker 1: why we want to begin to shape it in another way.
Speaker 1: But we call it an adaptive survival response, and that's sympathetic,
Speaker 1: and we all go there in some form or flavor
Speaker 1: most every day. Right, there's a moment of oh, I
Speaker 1: am so done with this energy, right, you know. And
Speaker 1: then dorsal is the third state that we have access to,
Speaker 1: another survival state, and that takes us to the opposite
Speaker 1: of sympathetic. Sympathetic mobilizes us with disorganized, chaotic energy. Dorsal
Speaker 1: immobilizes us. It drains all the energy from us. Is
Speaker 1: that different um than parasympathetic nervous response, So parasympathetic is
Speaker 1: both ventral and dorsal it's the parasympathetic nervous system. It's
Speaker 1: both the calm connect safe and the disconnect collapse disappear,
Speaker 1: and so parasympathetic which has those two branches, and sympathetic,
Speaker 1: which is fight flight. When you put them together, that
Speaker 1: gives you the automotive nervous system. Anxiety bites will be
Speaker 1: right back after a quick little message from one of
Speaker 1: our sponsors. I think often on this show because people
Speaker 1: I think that I talked to aren't is studied in
Speaker 1: Polly veagele A is you and so we always talk
Speaker 1: about when you're having a panic, you want to go
Speaker 1: from the sympathetic nervousism to the parasmithetic nervous system. But
Speaker 1: now you're telling us there's this other way to look
Speaker 1: at it, which is sounds even more fun going into
Speaker 1: dorsal right, which sounds is It's interesting because sympathetic is
Speaker 1: if if we put this on a hierarchy, at the
Speaker 1: top is ventral, in the middle of sympathetic at the
Speaker 1: bottom iss dorsal right. So sympathetic is the only place
Speaker 1: you have two choices, right your nervous system, your brain
Speaker 1: is really not helping you. Here is your nervous system. Right,
Speaker 1: Your nervous system can either bring you back to ventral,
Speaker 1: where you come back into regulation and connection, or it's
Speaker 1: going to be you're going to get pulled down to dorsal,
Speaker 1: which is where you disappear, dissociate. Um, just going through
Speaker 1: the motions. But I'm not really here. So it's not
Speaker 1: a it's not an adaptive behavior. It's it's like shutting down.
Speaker 1: It's it's not it's not like sleep. I mean, well,
Speaker 1: I mean it can be. I mean people can enter
Speaker 1: dorsal and just sleep and disappear in that way. But
Speaker 1: but it's and so it's an adaptive survival response, but
Speaker 1: it doesn't bring it doesn't nourish your nervous system and
Speaker 1: bring you back back into connection. Correct. Okay, so I
Speaker 1: was wrong that it's even more relaxing than paras of
Speaker 1: aathetic It's like, no, that's a you know, disordered way, right, right. So,
Speaker 1: so those are the three states, and we moved through
Speaker 1: them down and up all the time, in small ways
Speaker 1: and then sometimes in big ways. Right like this morning
Speaker 1: it's it's it's nine where I am in the morning,
Speaker 1: and already, as I reflect on my day, I had
Speaker 1: a beautiful ventral experience. I went for a walk in
Speaker 1: the nature preserve. It was beautiful. And then I came
Speaker 1: home and I was met with an email that totally
Speaker 1: frustrated me. So that was a bit of sympathetic. And
Speaker 1: then I had a connection with one of my trainers
Speaker 1: and it was like, I am so overwhelmed by all this.
Speaker 1: I could feel the flavor of just give it up, right,
Speaker 1: you know, And so all of that is normal. So
Speaker 1: I want people to understand that this movement into sympathetic
Speaker 1: endorsal is normal, is expected. It brings us some of
Speaker 1: the richness of life. It's when we get pulled out
Speaker 1: of regulation into a survival state. So when you get
Speaker 1: stuck in anxiety, then we suffer. But if you have
Speaker 1: an anxious moment and you return recover to regulation, that's
Speaker 1: normal and it's and it's okay for your body. In
Speaker 1: other words, it's when people here, oh, we go through
Speaker 1: these three things all day. You know a lot of
Speaker 1: people who want to heal their anxiety or they're into
Speaker 1: self help. You know, there is just such a lack
Speaker 1: of I don't know how to put it. But if
Speaker 1: you're on Instagram and you're following these you know, wellness things.
Speaker 1: There's such a lack of helping people to understand that
Speaker 1: you you're not bad, You're not doing it wrong, there's
Speaker 1: no perfect. So the goal isn't I'm going to live
Speaker 1: in ventral only and I'm never going to get into
Speaker 1: symbathetic or dorsal. It's like, as long as you can
Speaker 1: dip in and dip out, you are actually living your
Speaker 1: best life exactly the exactly yes. And and for you
Speaker 1: know trauma survivor clients, um, it's when they get pulled
Speaker 1: out and get stuck. Because when we enter sympathetic endorsal,
Speaker 1: as we've been talking about already, you can see the
Speaker 1: stories that activate, we get stuck in that story and
Speaker 1: we can't find our way out. And so the work
Speaker 1: to to be a you know, a healthy human is
Speaker 1: to find pathways to come back to ventral and to
Speaker 1: to be able to to know I just get pulled
Speaker 1: into survival story and I can find my way back
Speaker 1: right and with practice it gets easier. And I want
Speaker 1: to you before we get into I want to ask
Speaker 1: you some things about how people can heal from trauma.
Speaker 1: But I want to throw in just a few of
Speaker 1: my comments that I like, what you said about someone
Speaker 1: who has had a traumatic life, who's working through things,
Speaker 1: they might have glimmers of hope or of something that
Speaker 1: brings them contentment. And what I love about that. And
Speaker 1: you said it with the word curious too. So there's
Speaker 1: two C words and there's two G words. Okay, so
Speaker 1: we've got glimmers versus gratitude. So somebody who's having a
Speaker 1: very hard time might not be there yet. And I
Speaker 1: always say gratitude doesn't have to mean you feel it
Speaker 1: or you love something, but you know, maybe just think
Speaker 1: about something. But the better way to put it as glimmer.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't have to force someone to get
Speaker 1: into this gratitude state before they're ready, but they can glimmer.
Speaker 1: Oh you know what, my favorite book, my favorite author,
Speaker 1: they just released a book today. It's just a glimmer
Speaker 1: of something that brings you joy, connects you to you,
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with your trauma story. Great. And
Speaker 1: then when I was talking to you about my little
Speaker 1: friend there at the COVID test, I jumped to, well,
Speaker 1: maybe I should have compassion for him, and what you
Speaker 1: said was curiosity. So those those two C words again,
Speaker 1: jumping to I need to have compassion is again like
Speaker 1: putting this pressure on myself to be this amazing person,
Speaker 1: and curiosity got me there anyway without me having to
Speaker 1: say in a judgmental way towards myself, why don't you
Speaker 1: have compassion? And So I love these words curiosity and glimmers.
Speaker 1: I think everyone out there should replace compassion and gratitude
Speaker 1: with these words when they need to. It's interesting because
Speaker 1: you know, curiosity is um a quality of of ventral,
Speaker 1: of that state of regulation, safety and connection. So when
Speaker 1: I can feel up just a drop of curiosity when
Speaker 1: something catches my intention, I go, huh right, then I know,
Speaker 1: oh my ventral is just you know, come to life
Speaker 1: a bit um. Compassion and self compassion are need far
Speaker 1: more ventral energy to to access and that's fascinating. So
Speaker 1: which is technically scientifically harder? M it's not just emotionally
Speaker 1: or mentally, no, it's it's harder to get to compassion,
Speaker 1: self compassion, cury pocity is is always where I want
Speaker 1: to start. And you know, with my with my clients,
Speaker 1: it was like, you know, can we can we be compassionate?
Speaker 1: Why would I want to be compassionate about you know,
Speaker 1: this person that that has hurt me, right, I agree you. No,
Speaker 1: we're not going there now. We may never get there,
Speaker 1: and that's okay. This is about you anchoring and regulations
Speaker 1: so that you can feel some well being, physical and
Speaker 1: psychological well being, and then curiosity just organically emerges. You
Speaker 1: organically felt curious because you came to some central regulation.
Speaker 1: It just happens. This is so great and this, you know,
Speaker 1: it just reminds me of so many people that long ago,
Speaker 1: before there was the science we have now that we're
Speaker 1: saying things like this. One of my favorite people is
Speaker 1: Dr Edmund Jacobson. In my early anxiety recovery, one of
Speaker 1: the first things I did because my anxiety was showing
Speaker 1: up is this phobia flying. I took a Fear of
Speaker 1: Flying course and we were introduced to progressive muscle relaxation
Speaker 1: and a psychiatrist taught the course, and he said, we
Speaker 1: have to start here with our bodies. Then it will
Speaker 1: give us the you know, probably all this was poly
Speaker 1: bagel theory. It will be able to um get the
Speaker 1: mind ready to intellectually think about what we're gonna do
Speaker 1: about our fears of flying. But Edmund Jacobson. Dr Edmund
Speaker 1: Jacobson came up with progressive muscle relaxation. In the thirties,
Speaker 1: he wrote a book called You Must Relax, and back
Speaker 1: then a lot of people were going out drinking after
Speaker 1: work to relax, and he kept telling people your mind
Speaker 1: will follow if you actually relax the muscles in your body,
Speaker 1: and people just did not listen because that doesn't sound
Speaker 1: as fun as going up for a drink, and and uh,
Speaker 1: you know it. To me, it's the most important thing.
Speaker 1: And everyone in these days talks about meditation, which is great,
Speaker 1: but it almost seems like if you don't meditate, you're
Speaker 1: gonna die. You know, you're going to um your life.
Speaker 1: You're not gonna be able to extend. Your life is long,
Speaker 1: and you're not gonna be able to change your neural
Speaker 1: pathways if you don't meditate. And I always see the
Speaker 1: people who asked me just start with progressive muslin relaxation.
Speaker 1: Listen to a guided thing, stiff and relax your muscles.
Speaker 1: It has been the most profound thing and simple thing
Speaker 1: of my life. And I didn't realize then that it
Speaker 1: was all to do with everything that you're talking about now.
Speaker 1: And I love what you're saying because it's it's simple
Speaker 1: and yet profound, and that's what we're looking for. Because
Speaker 1: you know, for for me, even I'll use myself as
Speaker 1: an example. If I need to meditate a half hour
Speaker 1: to day, or even meditate ten minutes a day to
Speaker 1: become healthy, I can't do it. You know, it's too
Speaker 1: great a challenge for my nervous system. My nervous system
Speaker 1: can't stay in that state. I get, I get anxious,
Speaker 1: and then I disconnect. I just go to go to
Speaker 1: I'm not really here, and the meditation can happen, but
Speaker 1: I'm not here doing it, right, that's my pattern. Right.
Speaker 1: But if I know that doing small things over and
Speaker 1: over reshapes my nervous system, I'm good. Right, Like, if
Speaker 1: I can find three glimmers a day, then I'm going
Speaker 1: to start looking for more and it begins to accumulate.
Speaker 1: It's not simply this micro moment. It's a micro moment
Speaker 1: that finds a way in and then there's another and another,
Speaker 1: And it's helpful for people to understand that. Yes, for
Speaker 1: some people, meditation is wonderful, breath practices are wonderful. If
Speaker 1: that is not for you, that's okay. Your nervous system
Speaker 1: will help you find the thing that is right for you. Right,
Speaker 1: progressive muscle relaxation might be the thing that's right for you.
Speaker 1: Right looking out at nature might be the thing. They're
Speaker 1: all sorts of things. So whenever anybody says, you know,
Speaker 1: I used to get things at the beginning of the pandemic,
Speaker 1: we got things in our mailboxes. Five things to do
Speaker 1: to whatever right, ten things that will keep you. And
Speaker 1: I started thinking, Wow, none of those work for me.
Speaker 1: What's wrong with me? Because that's where we go. And
Speaker 1: then I came to oh, my nervous system says no,
Speaker 1: thank you. Let's find something that does work for me.
Speaker 1: And there are plenty of things that work for me.
Speaker 1: But I'm not going to tell you that there are
Speaker 1: the five things you need to do right right. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna invite you to explore and find what are the
Speaker 1: five things you want to do. We'll continue the interview
Speaker 1: on the flip side of a quick message from our sponsors.
Speaker 1: We'll getting into the trauma connection. You know, at the
Speaker 1: beginning of the interview, I made this note because you
Speaker 1: were talking about how the nervous system is in our
Speaker 1: body and it signals to the brain what we're going
Speaker 1: to make of this sensation, And I know. I talked
Speaker 1: to you, um Dr Lisa Feldman Barrett, who's a neuroscientist,
Speaker 1: and she explained the process of you know, like let's say, um,
Speaker 1: beginning to have a panic attack on an airplane, that
Speaker 1: your brain is just trying to predict what's happeneding based
Speaker 1: on your body's cues. And if your body is just
Speaker 1: freaking out for no reason, your brain is going to
Speaker 1: take a minute. And it's in that moment that we
Speaker 1: can either latch onto the weird things our brain is
Speaker 1: telling us or we can know better. But that takes practice.
Speaker 1: And so I'm thinking about again another buzzword. We hear
Speaker 1: the mind body connection, and I feel again that culture
Speaker 1: makes us think that the mind body connection means it
Speaker 1: starts in our mind and we can control our bodies
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. And it's really body to brain
Speaker 1: connection right again, It starts with regulating the body, then
Speaker 1: it can move up to the brain. Is there am
Speaker 1: I saying that? Right? Yeah? It's interesting. Is in therapy
Speaker 1: we talked about bottom up and top down. I've never
Speaker 1: heard that, yeah, And so what we really want is
Speaker 1: we want bottom up to meet talk down because really
Speaker 1: we are an integrated system. Right, what we we are
Speaker 1: not a brain and a body. We are one system
Speaker 1: and the communication pathways go with both directions. Right. The
Speaker 1: body to brain pathway is powerful. And so when my
Speaker 1: heart starts beating faster, when my breath changes, and that
Speaker 1: gets sent up to my brain, and my brain is
Speaker 1: used to anxiety or panic, it's going to go there,
Speaker 1: right because it knows that's the pathway. It's traveled so often. Right,
Speaker 1: And some of the work with trauma survivors is to
Speaker 1: notice when your heart rates needs up and your breath changes.
Speaker 1: You know, can we consider excitement right instead of anxiety
Speaker 1: because it's the same body experience, but the brain makes
Speaker 1: up a different story. So we want to encourage the
Speaker 1: brain to to look at you know, what are all
Speaker 1: the options for stories? Right? So you know it oftentimes
Speaker 1: we think if we say something different, we'll have a
Speaker 1: different experience. That that's the top down, totally talk down.
Speaker 1: Like just changing the belief when we're working against the
Speaker 1: body is a no win situation. Right. If your brain
Speaker 1: and your body are in a disagreement and and your
Speaker 1: body feels very strongly about it is going to win
Speaker 1: that argument all the time. Okay, So so trying to
Speaker 1: change your thoughts while your body is not, it's not
Speaker 1: going to work. It's like throwing I don't know, I
Speaker 1: don't know what. It's like tape that's not stick anymore.
Speaker 1: It's not going to stick, right, It's it's when it's
Speaker 1: when we first feel the change beginning to happen, before
Speaker 1: we've gone fully into the survival response, that we can,
Speaker 1: you know, recruit our brain to help us, because the
Speaker 1: brain is still working prefrontal cortex is still there working
Speaker 1: online with us. So when I first begin to feel
Speaker 1: my heart beginning to beat faster, I can be curious
Speaker 1: because I haven't left that regulated state and gone to survival.
Speaker 1: But if I now in sympathetic anxiety survival, my brain
Speaker 1: is is no longer. It doesn't come along for the ride,
Speaker 1: so to speak, so it's not there to help me.
Speaker 1: So this is my silly analogy. I live in New York,
Speaker 1: so I'm running for the subway. The doors are open,
Speaker 1: that's my window right to get in there and tell
Speaker 1: my brain a different story. And if I don't make it,
Speaker 1: the doors shut, train is off, it is gone. And
Speaker 1: so I guess that's why this stuff takes practice, right,
Speaker 1: Because you have to keep experiencing your body about to
Speaker 1: go into full survival mode in that little window. If
Speaker 1: you can do that mind work right there, um great,
Speaker 1: and then keep practicing that. But you might miss the
Speaker 1: window sometimes, which is obviously fine. Yes, we we all
Speaker 1: missed them indow sometimes I'm now going to have that
Speaker 1: image in my in my head of the doors are closing,
Speaker 1: right and do I make it or not? Right? And
Speaker 1: and yeah, the thing that we want to do in
Speaker 1: our work, with our own experience when something is happening
Speaker 1: is to slow it down. Right. As we slow it down,
Speaker 1: we bring because all of these experiences are what we
Speaker 1: call implicit experiences, right, all of this body stuff, all
Speaker 1: of the nervous system stuff is happening below the level
Speaker 1: of our conscious awareness. We have to bring it into
Speaker 1: conscious awareness. And when we do that, and like we
Speaker 1: did the turn toward and look at it, we can
Speaker 1: slow it down so the door won't close quite so quickly.
Speaker 1: That's really what we're we're trying to do, right, Give
Speaker 1: us more time. And when you're working with trauma survivors,
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what the trauma is. I mean, if they um,
Speaker 1: you know, had sexual abuse, if they had mental abuse
Speaker 1: or even if they were a baby that I mean,
Speaker 1: I've heard this too. This is always very hard for
Speaker 1: me to comprehend, but I'm sure you can explain it.
Speaker 1: I'm always like, what, how is a baby that you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know, was sick when they were born and
Speaker 1: they were maybe an incubators and they didn't have a
Speaker 1: lot of that human touch. I mean, I get it,
Speaker 1: but I don't how does someone so young who's not
Speaker 1: even experience seeing something quote emotional yet and then ends
Speaker 1: up having very loving parents, Like, how does that traumas
Speaker 1: day in the body? So we come into the world
Speaker 1: expecting we have a biological expectation that we will be
Speaker 1: met by another person who has a regulated nervous system
Speaker 1: because coregulation. We don't survive without that coregulation, right, And
Speaker 1: and actually that need for coregulation lasts until the day
Speaker 1: we die. But as we come into the world, it
Speaker 1: is truly a life or death situation. So for the
Speaker 1: little ones who end up premature and in an incubator,
Speaker 1: you know, not connected to their caregiver, that is a
Speaker 1: biological affront to their system, right. They need that connection,
Speaker 1: and so instead of mother holding they're they're in a
Speaker 1: incubator with tubes and wires and noises and all of
Speaker 1: this stuff assaulting their system, and so that gets it's
Speaker 1: a you know, their neural seption is one of danger, right,
Speaker 1: So when neuro seption begins to create those pathways those
Speaker 1: patterns then and that's one of the reasons why skin
Speaker 1: to skin contact kangaroo care has become so popular even
Speaker 1: you know, so as soon as a tiny premius is
Speaker 1: able to be outside the incubator skin to skin contact
Speaker 1: because they're trying to create that that sense of safety
Speaker 1: and coregulation, and then that does that stay in their
Speaker 1: body until there older Well, it's a neural pathway that
Speaker 1: gets created. Right, the nervous system is missing what it
Speaker 1: needs and so it has to compensate in some other way.
Speaker 1: So we build pathways of connection and pathways of protection.
Speaker 1: And so if we grew up in a in a
Speaker 1: home where the world was was dangerous, it doesn't really
Speaker 1: matter in what way it was dangerous. So what we
Speaker 1: say in this kind and the work is it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter so much what happened to you. It matters how
Speaker 1: your nervous system responded to what happened to you. So
Speaker 1: for some people growing up in a dangerous home, they
Speaker 1: become very sympathetically charged. They might get very big and
Speaker 1: acting out, or they might have that huge anxiety where
Speaker 1: they need to manage everything to make sure it stays okay,
Speaker 1: so that's sympathetic. Or they might go to the dorsal
Speaker 1: place where they try to become invisible, fly into the radar,
Speaker 1: not be seen, not be heard. Those are the creative
Speaker 1: ways the nervous system is helping them survive. And we
Speaker 1: carry those patterns into our adulthood even after we are
Speaker 1: no longer in those experiences, right, And that's why we
Speaker 1: need to then go back and look at those in
Speaker 1: in rewire and re story, because otherwise we're simply acting
Speaker 1: out of those familiar cues that our nervous system took
Speaker 1: in and learned how to respond to creatively to keep
Speaker 1: us alive. So let's say you grew up in a
Speaker 1: traumatic hosthold of I don't know, there's whatever it was,
Speaker 1: instability in any form from the littlest thing all the
Speaker 1: way up to alcoholic parent. There's violence. So that person
Speaker 1: who's carrying that in their nervous system and they've developed
Speaker 1: all these neuropathways of protection, how might that come up,
Speaker 1: like obviously if they're met with the same thing that
Speaker 1: could come up, But could it be even a little
Speaker 1: thing like a friend says something that they take the
Speaker 1: wrong way. I mean, is that where it comes out
Speaker 1: exactly that That's where you know, NEU reception feels a
Speaker 1: familiar flavor of a queue of danger, and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden we're having this this response. Right, it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't want to be friends with that person anymore,
Speaker 1: or or you know, I don't want to do this job,
Speaker 1: or it becomes something big, and it starts from a
Speaker 1: familiar queue of danger, right. And the cues are again
Speaker 1: the embodied cues, the environment mental cues, and the relational cue.
Speaker 1: So those are the three pathways. So even the environment,
Speaker 1: you know, my my my work environment might have a
Speaker 1: familiar queue of danger from my past and I end
Speaker 1: up leaving that job, and I am going my brain's
Speaker 1: gonna give me a story about why I left. It's
Speaker 1: not going to be oh, that the environment had that
Speaker 1: queue of danger, right, And when the environment has the
Speaker 1: queue of danger, you're not saying necessarily that the environment
Speaker 1: is dangerous and they should have left. It was a
Speaker 1: So going back to me, my COVID test person, It's
Speaker 1: it's really an overreaction to something that reminds you like
Speaker 1: the danger could just be like whatever it is you
Speaker 1: you think your boss doesn't appreciate your workers something right,
Speaker 1: And it can be something as simple as as you know,
Speaker 1: I can't work in an office with no windows, got it?
Speaker 1: And other people feel very comfortable in an office with
Speaker 1: no windows. It either feels it can feel cozy, or
Speaker 1: it can feel trapped. And you know, if I don't,
Speaker 1: if I simply just keep leaving jobs but don't understand why,
Speaker 1: I'm following what my nervous system is is telling me
Speaker 1: to do, but I don't understand it. And that's why
Speaker 1: I think when we understand we can work with right.
Speaker 1: I'm probably never gonna want to work in a in
Speaker 1: an office with no windows still, but if I understand it,
Speaker 1: then I at least know what it is I can
Speaker 1: ask for or I'm looking for. That's so great. And
Speaker 1: so to anyone out there who suffered any kind of
Speaker 1: trauma and they're looking for a therapist, it really sounds
Speaker 1: like they need to find someone that understands this work.
Speaker 1: Because if we just keep approaching it from because I've
Speaker 1: seen this in life. I've seen therapists try to jump
Speaker 1: to let's create different neural pathways with thoughts, and the
Speaker 1: body is never addressed. Um, it's making sense now that
Speaker 1: that just doesn't work. What should people look for in
Speaker 1: a therapist if they want to work through some trauma?
Speaker 1: And I think there are lots of therapies that you
Speaker 1: know are going to bring the body in to the process.
Speaker 1: And so you know, I probably for for me when
Speaker 1: people ask me, I say, why don't you, um ask
Speaker 1: the therapist? I think we should all shock for therapists,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, we should do a meet and greet.
Speaker 1: And for me, it's like, does your nervous system feel
Speaker 1: as though this might be a fit? Right? So when
Speaker 1: you talk to somebody, do you get the sense that, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, I'd like to talk to this person again,
Speaker 1: or or no? And if it's if your nervous system
Speaker 1: says no, move on, right, because you will find somebody
Speaker 1: who feels like a fit. If this feels like a fit,
Speaker 1: then you could talk to them and say, so do
Speaker 1: you how do you work with the body, How do
Speaker 1: you think about the nervous system, how do you think
Speaker 1: about healing? Trauma. Do you, you know, work from the
Speaker 1: brain down or do you focus more on the body
Speaker 1: or do you do both? And you know, sort of
Speaker 1: ask those questions to interview. You want to interview with
Speaker 1: therapists and find out, you know, what does this feel like? Right?
Speaker 1: How does my nervous system, my nervous system say yes, no?
Speaker 1: Or maybe? If your nervous system says yes, keep talking.
Speaker 1: If it says no, say thank you very much. As
Speaker 1: it says maybe, I'd keep talking and see, you know,
Speaker 1: explore right, and can we trust that? You know, if
Speaker 1: someone hasn't done this kind of work and you know
Speaker 1: they're they're maybe still in that mode where they just
Speaker 1: keep avoiding things that can you trust your quote got
Speaker 1: in that moment um, your nervous system won't betray you
Speaker 1: in that way? Um, I guess. In other words, it might,
Speaker 1: it might betray you. Wanna on a note, I don't know,
Speaker 1: is there what's it? It's interesting because there can be
Speaker 1: a mismatch happening within the person's nervous system. When I
Speaker 1: meet a client for the first time, I know that
Speaker 1: it's my job to be regulated and to offer that
Speaker 1: autonomic regulation of safety and and a welcome through through
Speaker 1: my nervous system to that person and see what happens. Right,
Speaker 1: and it's and it can be challenging. And yet the power,
Speaker 1: I guess I'd like to say this as well, the
Speaker 1: power of ventral is pretty astounding. Right as I am
Speaker 1: regulated and in connecting with a client for the first time,
Speaker 1: their nervous system is getting a different experience off of
Speaker 1: an experience of someone who is safe and regulated and predictable.
Speaker 1: And no matter what they say, I just say, I
Speaker 1: stay regulated and curious. Right. And then if you're a
Speaker 1: nervous system, if you and I are having this conversation
Speaker 1: and your nervous system feels, oh, I can't do this.
Speaker 1: What it's telling you is it doesn't feel safe enough
Speaker 1: yet to dive into this, And that I think is
Speaker 1: is wisdom, right, And then you know, we have to
Speaker 1: make it safe enough. That's really smart because I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about anyone going in there be for any reason. If
Speaker 1: your therapist comes in, they're late, they've got a coffee.
Speaker 1: Now I come so sorry traffic that is, they cannot
Speaker 1: do that, right, Like they've got to fix that and
Speaker 1: come in regulated and and not and and that is
Speaker 1: it may seem so like oh, it's fine, I get it.
Speaker 1: You know, it's crazy city out there, but they really like, no,
Speaker 1: you're not getting your needs met on this biological level
Speaker 1: and you cannot accept that, right. Is that like a
Speaker 1: deal breaker? Well, you know it's interesting because for me
Speaker 1: that's a deal breaker. Right. And and in the therapist
Speaker 1: I trained, I would hope they would never come in
Speaker 1: that way. But if they do, you know, and I've
Speaker 1: had many messy mornings, right, and they're probably been mornings
Speaker 1: when I have entered a session not fully regulated. I
Speaker 1: name that with my clients, say, oh, you know, this
Speaker 1: was one of those messy mornings. I'm going to take
Speaker 1: a moment. Let's just arrive together and and find our
Speaker 1: way to regulation. Right, Because if I try to fake
Speaker 1: it till I make it, the through neuroception, the other
Speaker 1: person's nervous system gets it. And for many trauma survivors,
Speaker 1: their experience has been that that they've been told what
Speaker 1: they feel isn't true, or what they're seeing isn't happening.
Speaker 1: And so to be able to say, yep, a little
Speaker 1: bit is regulated. Give me a moment so we can
Speaker 1: anchor here together and arrive. Then the nervous the client's
Speaker 1: nervous system says, Oh, I was right on a first meeting.
Speaker 1: It's probably not a good sign. We'll be right back. Hey, Hey,
Speaker 1: it's me again. I hope that you had a great
Speaker 1: and relaxing time listening to my interview with dab Dana.
Speaker 1: Let's go over some of the takeaways that we got
Speaker 1: from talking with Deb now. These takeaways are always available
Speaker 1: on my website, Jen Kirkman dot com Anxiety Bites. You
Speaker 1: can find the link to my website in the show notes.
Speaker 1: You can find a link to deb Dana's work and
Speaker 1: her book as well in the show notes. And once again,
Speaker 1: um if you want to tweet at me, it's at
Speaker 1: Jen Kirkman and at Instagram at Instagram at Jen Kirkman
Speaker 1: on Instagram, and you can let me know how much
Speaker 1: you love the episode. I love to hear feedback. You
Speaker 1: may feel like, oh she knows, I don't. I love
Speaker 1: to hear it. So thank you, and you can always
Speaker 1: send an email to Anxiety Bites Weekly at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: We are coming to the last episodes of the series
Speaker 1: and so get your emails in soon. Okay, So let's
Speaker 1: talk about the takeaways from this episode. The nervous system
Speaker 1: is the common denominator in the human experience. The ventral
Speaker 1: vagel state is the rest and digest state. It's our
Speaker 1: state of safety and homeostasis. The dorsal vagel state is
Speaker 1: one of shutdown, when we are pulled away from connection
Speaker 1: and into a state of self protection. Part of our
Speaker 1: human responsibility is to understand why am I behaving this way,
Speaker 1: responding this way, thinking this way. The brain isn't running
Speaker 1: the show of our human experience. What happens in the
Speaker 1: nervous system is and then that information travels through pathways
Speaker 1: to the brain, and from there the brain tries to
Speaker 1: make a story of what's happening in the body. Neuroception
Speaker 1: is the process of how our nervous system listens inside
Speaker 1: of our body. People's nervous systems determine if another person
Speaker 1: is safe by noticing the tone of their voice through
Speaker 1: their eyes, their head movements through their ears. In other words,
Speaker 1: how we take in information. It's not the words someone says,
Speaker 1: but how they're saying them. The cues that are nervous
Speaker 1: system sends us about. Another person's nervous system is shaped
Speaker 1: by our lived experience. If your sympathetic nervous system is
Speaker 1: in activation. You can turn to it with curiosity. It's
Speaker 1: a discernment question about the level of response needed. We
Speaker 1: can partner with our nervous system when it's putting us
Speaker 1: in high alert by being aware that it's alerting us
Speaker 1: to a pattern and deciding how we want to respond
Speaker 1: to help us anchor into ventral regulation. People with a
Speaker 1: chaotic energy need not only to self regulate, but it
Speaker 1: helps if the people in their life can co regulate
Speaker 1: with them, which brings the nervous system back to a
Speaker 1: ventral state. The three states of polyvagal theory are ventral, sympathetic,
Speaker 1: and dorsal. It is normal to move throughout these states
Speaker 1: many times a day. The goal isn't just to stay
Speaker 1: in ventral. That's not realistic. The goal is to be
Speaker 1: able to regulate. Trauma survivors often need to just have
Speaker 1: a glimmer during the day. Did they hear a song
Speaker 1: they love, see a son set, anything that gives a
Speaker 1: few moments of joy. Curiosity is a much more realistic
Speaker 1: state to expect yourself to move into than compassion, and
Speaker 1: no one should pressure themselves to feel compassion when they're
Speaker 1: recovering from trauma. When we are born, we have a
Speaker 1: biological expectation that we will be met by another person
Speaker 1: who has a regulated nervous system that we can co
Speaker 1: regulate with, and that need lasts until the day we die.
Speaker 1: If a newborn doesn't receive that, a neuropathway is created
Speaker 1: because the nervous system is missing what it needs and
Speaker 1: it has to compensate in some other way. People who
Speaker 1: grew up in a chaotic home may become very sympathetically
Speaker 1: charged as they're kind of default state and act out often.
Speaker 1: It doesn't always matter what exact trauma happened to you,
Speaker 1: but how your nervous system responded to what happened to you.
Speaker 1: The job of a therapist is to create an environment
Speaker 1: that is safe to corregulate in, and they should make
Speaker 1: sure that they are properly regulated before an appointment. If not,
Speaker 1: this can and maybe should be a deal breaker for clients.
Speaker 1: That is all for this episode. Please keep listening. We've
Speaker 1: got a few episodes left, a lot of great stuff
Speaker 1: coming up. Next week. I am talking to former politician
Speaker 1: and former soldier Jason Candor about his new book and
Speaker 1: his experience getting help for his PTSD eleven years after
Speaker 1: he first developed it and what his journey was like
Speaker 1: and why he wants to help other people start getting
Speaker 1: the help they need a lot faster than he did.
Speaker 1: So thanks again for listening to anxiety Bites and yes,
Speaker 1: anxiety bites, but you're in control. Mmmm. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: for my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.