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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: And I would argue that some of these secrets that

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Speaker 2: I'm revealing right now in this book are things that

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Speaker 2: people just didn't know about the case, the reasons why

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Speaker 2: it still was important, why in some ways, Dean Coral

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Speaker 2: should be even more famous sin John Wayne Gacy because

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Speaker 2: there were all these other things going on around his murders.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, fomakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. Dean Coral was a serial

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Speaker 1: killer in Houston in the early nineteen seventies. He kidnapped

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Speaker 1: and murdered more than two dozen missing teenage boys before

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Speaker 1: he was murdered by one of his accomplices. Decades later,

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Speaker 1: a forensic anthropologist discovered a box of remains from the case.

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Speaker 1: She spent years using scientific tools to identify some of

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Speaker 1: the unknown victims. Journalist Lisa Olsen tells me the story

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Speaker 1: at the center of her book, The Scientist and the

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Speaker 1: Serial Killer. I have heard of the story of Dean before,

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Speaker 1: and you know, this is an awful story that I

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Speaker 1: know has lived, I guess in infamy in Texas. There

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Speaker 1: are quite a few people who had never heard of

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Speaker 1: it outside of the state. You have a different focus

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Speaker 1: for this book that I think is fascinating because I

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Speaker 1: am absolutely fascinated with the work of forensic anthropologists, and

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Speaker 1: I don't know enough about them. So this is what

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Speaker 1: I'm counting on for you, is to tell me exactly

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Speaker 1: what that is and how it relates to this case.

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Speaker 1: So when you tell people at a dinner party, I've

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Speaker 1: written this amazing book and they say, what's it about.

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Speaker 1: What is your three paragraph pitch to them? What do

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Speaker 1: you say it is about?

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Speaker 2: This book is about what was an infamous murder case

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Speaker 2: in the early seventies in Texas involving a man named

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Speaker 2: Dean Coral, who was around here called the candy Man,

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Speaker 2: who was linked after his murder, to the disappearance of

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Speaker 2: more than two dozen young boys and young men in

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Speaker 2: the Houston area, all of whom, with the exception of

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Speaker 2: one or two, had been assumed to be not victims

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Speaker 2: of any crime, but simply runaways. Their parents and their

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Speaker 2: siblings and their friends were looking for them, but the

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Speaker 2: police were not. So there was this discovery that generated

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Speaker 2: national news. The Vatican, the Zvestia, the Russian Empire issued

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Speaker 2: press releases condemning the Houston police for failing to notice

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Speaker 2: how many young men had disappeared, because they found them

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Speaker 2: their bones in these mass graves that were discovered only

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Speaker 2: because the person who killed Dean Coral, who was one

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Speaker 2: of his accomplices, led them to the burial grounds. And

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Speaker 2: what I say about what my book is about is

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Speaker 2: about what you never knew about that case. There was

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Speaker 2: a lot that wasn't known because Coral was killed, he

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Speaker 2: never lived to tell his story, and a third of

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Speaker 2: his victims were not identified for decades. And so my

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Speaker 2: story starts with a woman who comes to the Morgue

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Speaker 2: in the mid two thousands as a forensic anthropologist. Her

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Speaker 2: name is doctor Sharon Derek. She discovers these boxes of

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Speaker 2: bones of unidentified teenagers, and she is completely floored because

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Speaker 2: this is a case she heard growing up in Texas.

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Speaker 2: This was a case that gave Texas teenagers nightmares about

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Speaker 2: being kidnapped, about being disappeared, about being sexually assaulted and tortured.

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Speaker 2: This was all of that, and she's just as pulled

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Speaker 2: and shocked that there are so many boxes of bones

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Speaker 2: of unidentified people who are approximately her age, boys and

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Speaker 2: young mens who grew up in the same neighborhood where

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Speaker 2: her grandparents lived, where her cousins grew up. And so

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Speaker 2: she sets out on this journey to try to use

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Speaker 2: modern forensic apology techniques to identify who they are. And

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Speaker 2: in the course of that work, which does generate news

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Speaker 2: at the time when she makes these discovery, she on

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Speaker 2: earth's deeper truths about these cases that were never made

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Speaker 2: public in the seventies and I think are still really

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Speaker 2: important today, things like the fact that some of these

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Speaker 2: boys were victims of what we would call today a

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Speaker 2: sex trafficking ring, with some of those images had been

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Speaker 2: sold to a worldwide network of pedophile and the fact

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Speaker 2: that many of these boys really had been reported missing

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Speaker 2: partly because their families were you know, didn't have the

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Speaker 2: same kind of power as other families. Maybe they were

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Speaker 2: led by single women, their parents didn't get the same attention,

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Speaker 2: and so they were never identified even though they probably

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Speaker 2: should have been at the time. You know, there was,

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Speaker 2: of course a stigma to these crimes that persists today

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Speaker 2: in that young men who are victims of sexual assault,

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Speaker 2: even today, if you look at research by the National

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Speaker 2: Center for Missing and Exploited Children, still don't feel empowered

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Speaker 2: to talk about when they are assaulted or when someone

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Speaker 2: attempts to assault them. And so an open secret among

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Speaker 2: a generation of Houstonians and from these neighborhoods where these

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Speaker 2: boys were taken, was that there were living victims. There

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Speaker 2: were probably twice as many living victims who were still around,

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Speaker 2: and so many of whom I interviewed who could talk

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Speaker 2: about the near missus they had when the same pedophile

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Speaker 2: tried to come after them, and that was also so suppressed. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think it's an incredible story of scientific

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Speaker 2: discovery by a woman, which is something, you know, a

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Speaker 2: story I wanted to tell, but it's also a story

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Speaker 2: that resonates today about you know, we need to pay

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Speaker 2: more attention to the issue of the unidentified, which remains

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Speaker 2: a huge problem. You know, there's just not enough resources

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Speaker 2: to use these new forensic tools to identify people, and

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Speaker 2: then the plight of missing persons and sex assault victims

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Speaker 2: is still a big, big issue, you know. So that's

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Speaker 2: why I felt like it was worth telling this story

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Speaker 2: in a whole new way. So I tell people, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is a story you thought you knew if you

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Speaker 2: were a Houstonian, But I'm going to tell you a

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Speaker 2: lot of things about what you didn't know. This isn't

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Speaker 2: a who done it? It's a who was it? And

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Speaker 2: what did it mean?

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Speaker 1: Dean Coral was truly awful. I mean, when you hear

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Speaker 1: all of the details of what happened to these young

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Speaker 1: men and these boys, you know, it truly, truly is terrifying.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that's so disconcerting about Dean Coral

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Speaker 1: before we kind of get into that part of the story,

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Speaker 1: just so everybody has context, is that he was a

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Speaker 1: seemingly respected member of the community. You know, his parents

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Speaker 1: had a business. And what a great cover up it was,

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Speaker 1: and that's one of the things that alarms me is

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Speaker 1: the of course, the idea that the serial killer is

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Speaker 1: the next door neighbor. It is not the person who

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Speaker 1: might look like an Edmund Kemper or someone who you know,

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Speaker 1: like you look at it and it seems obvious, and

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Speaker 1: Dean Coral did not seem obvious. Do you want to

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Speaker 1: kind of go back and tell me a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the background, just so that we can understand going

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Speaker 1: forward when we meet Sharon the significance of what she found.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So, Dean Coral was an electrician. He worked for

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Speaker 2: the you know, city lighting and power company. He wasn't

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Speaker 2: anybody who tracked it a lot of attention. And in

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Speaker 2: the day his as you said, his mother owned a

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Speaker 2: series of candy shops. That's why they called him the

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Speaker 2: candy man some of the kids because he ran those

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Speaker 2: shops with his mother. He literally mixed up recipes and

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Speaker 2: made candy, praylans and things like that. That then some

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Speaker 2: of these boys actually worked in the shops and leaned

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Speaker 2: up or delivered and over time I think this would

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Speaker 2: have attracted attention today, but in the seventies it really didn't.

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Speaker 2: He befriended a lot of these kids, and he used

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Speaker 2: these candy shops as sort of hangout places, and so

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Speaker 2: some of these kids hung out at his candy shops,

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Speaker 2: which tended to be near elementary schools. Most of them

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Speaker 2: were in a neighborhood in Houston called the Houston Heights,

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Speaker 2: which is a historic neighborhood with a lot of beautiful

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Speaker 2: old Victorian houses, but in the seventies it was a

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Speaker 2: little bit run down. It's kind of become a premier,

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Speaker 2: you know, where he sought after neighborhood today, but back

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Speaker 2: then there were a lot of rental properties. There were

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Speaker 2: a lot of kids whose dads were World War two veterans,

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Speaker 2: or parents were divorcing. There were a lot of issues,

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Speaker 2: and some of these kids, he just would befriend kids,

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Speaker 2: often poorer kids, and offer them a place to hang out,

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Speaker 2: and he would also give them all kinds of gifts,

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Speaker 2: many trips to the beach, he would let them ride

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Speaker 2: on motorcycle. And then he started really soliciting these favors

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Speaker 2: in return that obviously these boys didn't tell their parents about.

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Speaker 2: And ultimately then he starts to kidnap and as you said,

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Speaker 2: torture and kill other boys and uses two of the

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Speaker 2: boys he's befriended to do that.

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Speaker 1: And you know what I had remembered about the story was,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the boys the mother had trusted him,

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Speaker 1: and in some ways, you know, he is that man

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Speaker 1: who who, if the parents are involved, might see him

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Speaker 1: as a big brother figure, someone who could be a

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Speaker 1: positive influence. And then that goes back to focusing in

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Speaker 1: on these vulnerable victims and who he's able to exploit

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Speaker 1: because of you know, the way he looks in his standing.

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Speaker 1: And there are no red flags. So when you talk

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Speaker 1: about these young men being from this area and the heights,

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Speaker 1: these boys, are these people who are very involved with

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Speaker 1: their families or was it an array of involvement from

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Speaker 1: the families.

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Speaker 2: I mean, almost all of these kids were reported missing

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Speaker 2: by their families. They weren't weren't runaways, they weren't estranged

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Speaker 2: by their from their families. The police tried to characterize

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Speaker 2: them as in some way sort of fringe kids who

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Speaker 2: to excuse the fact that they were all dismissed as runaways.

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Speaker 2: But when you look at the profiles of the children,

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Speaker 2: you know, some of them are as young as thirteen.

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Speaker 2: There are differences, but there are some really big red

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Speaker 2: flags that today you know, in the era of amber

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Speaker 2: alerts would have certainly roseen too the level of you know,

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Speaker 2: this is clearly an abduction. One of the kids, who

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Speaker 2: was the younger, had packed for a trip with his

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Speaker 2: family that were going to be leaving the next day.

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Speaker 2: He and his buddy went to the pool. You know,

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Speaker 2: they only had basically their swimming suits and towels and

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Speaker 2: some extra clothes in a bag, and they both disappeared.

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Speaker 2: This was a you know, a really good church going

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Speaker 2: kid who went to parochial school. His friend had had

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Speaker 2: a little bit of problems, but the friend was a

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Speaker 2: good kid too, you know, kid who teachers liked, was

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Speaker 2: very close to his mom and brother. And they just

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Speaker 2: disappear off the face of the earth. And those parents

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Speaker 2: hired a private detective. They put up flyers all over

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Speaker 2: the neighborhood. They made some of the most noise of

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Speaker 2: any parents. And yet there was no listing of these

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Speaker 2: boys as kidnap or murder victims. They were just dismissed

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Speaker 2: as his runaways. There was a pair of brothers who

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Speaker 2: disappeared together. They were only fifteen and thirteen. Their dad

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Speaker 2: talked with the police about suspecting that they had been

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Speaker 2: photographed by a porn ring and gave names to the police,

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Speaker 2: and the police did not follow up. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: kind of shocking. Later on, you have kids who had jobs, girlfriends, cars,

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Speaker 2: who leave behind their jobs, their girlfriends and their cars,

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Speaker 2: and the police assume their runaways. Why would a kid

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Speaker 2: who was eighteen year old year old who was engaged

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Speaker 2: to be married, who had a good job, leave his

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Speaker 2: family and not even take his own car and just

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Speaker 2: disappear a few weeks before high school gra You know,

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Speaker 2: these things defy it defies logic today that they would

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Speaker 2: have dismissed all these kids as runaways. And that's kind

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Speaker 2: of the heartbreaking thing when you see when you read

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Speaker 2: all these old police files, in the missing persons files,

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Speaker 2: is so often it was mothers telling these stories. Fathers too,

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Speaker 2: you know, fathers too are pressing for answers, and they're

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Speaker 2: just being dismissed as this is going to you know,

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Speaker 2: this is just a runaway. We have too many of

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Speaker 2: these cases and the police just don't pull them out

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Speaker 2: of the pile. Now, granted, at the time and today too,

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Speaker 2: you still do have a lot of kids running away

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Speaker 2: from home. You have some kids who are estranged from

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Speaker 2: their families for a lot of reasons, you know, And

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Speaker 2: that was true in the seventies too. You know, there

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Speaker 2: were kids who were having fights with their parents over

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Speaker 2: their length, their hair, or their sexual preferences or who

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Speaker 2: they were dating. And that was true too. But there

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Speaker 2: were certainly a huge number of red flags that were

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Speaker 2: raised by the parents in these cases. And that's kind

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Speaker 2: of what's heartbreaking about the fact that the murders are

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Speaker 2: not discovered and tell really what I reveal, at least

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Speaker 2: thirty to thirty five boys had been killed at the time.

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Speaker 2: The official count was twenty seven, but doctor Derek has

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Speaker 2: proven that there were more.

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Speaker 1: Did you address in the book about the connection with

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Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacy and that part of the porn ring?

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Speaker 1: Is that something that you go into.

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Speaker 2: John Wayne Gaysey. There was a documentary called The Clown

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Speaker 2: and the Candy Man which explores the connections potential connections

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Speaker 2: between Gaysey and Dean Coral. There were some coincidences and

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Speaker 2: some potential connections there. But I am connecting Dean Coral

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Speaker 2: to another person who was a pornographer in Houston, who

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Speaker 2: was prosecuted in federal court, who had in his possession

250
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Speaker 2: the photos of eleven of his victims, and who was

251
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Speaker 2: connected to other men who stayed in Houston and who

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Speaker 2: continued to exploit other teens after these were discovered, and

253
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Speaker 2: who were never openly questioned by police according to files

254
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Speaker 2: I've found, or were prosecuted as either accomplices or potential

255
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Speaker 2: accomplices to these murders, even though they were clearly involved

256
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Speaker 2: in exploiting these same boys at least eleven of the

257
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Speaker 2: boys about a third of the victims. The Clown and

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Speaker 2: the Candyman documentary does explore the idea that there might

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Speaker 2: be links between Dean Coral and John Wayne Gacy, who

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Speaker 2: were both linked to different ornography rings. I have not

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Speaker 2: been able to confirm that there's a direct link between

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Speaker 2: the two of them, but there certainly is a link

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Speaker 2: between what Dean Coral was doing in a pornography ring.

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Speaker 1: If police had been paying attention and believes that they

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Speaker 1: were not just runaways, as these boys are disappearing over time,

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Speaker 1: what have it been difficult for the police to connect

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Speaker 1: these boys to Dean Coral Or was he planning this

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Speaker 1: so well that even if they were looking for something,

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Speaker 1: it would be hard because nobody saw them with him?

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Speaker 1: Or whatever The case might be, would they have been

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Speaker 1: able to make the connection and save lives much sooner?

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Speaker 2: You know, we're not talking about a modern homicide detective unit,

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Speaker 2: of course. However, I think you know, looking back, you

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Speaker 2: know clearly if you look at the list of victims,

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Speaker 2: the known murder starts in nineteen seventy and the first

276
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Speaker 2: victim was snatched off the street. It was hitchhiking, So

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Speaker 2: I don't think they could have connected Dean Coral to him.

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Speaker 2: But the second and third victims, Danny Yates and Jimmy Glass.

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Speaker 2: Janny Yates brother told me that he could have identified

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Speaker 2: Dean Coral, and that his brother and he had met

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Speaker 2: Coral when they were walking with James Glass after failing

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Speaker 2: to get into a drive in Cinema. They're picked up

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Speaker 2: by Dean Coral and taken around until the elder brother said,

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Speaker 2: you know, you got to let us out. But after

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Speaker 2: that incident, it was a short time after that that

286
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Speaker 2: the other two boys who were taken by Coral and

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Speaker 2: there both disappear. Now that little brother, that boy, who

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Speaker 2: would have been fifteen at the time, said I could

289
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,040
Speaker 2: have told them who that was. I would have told

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Speaker 2: them that my brother and James Glass had his phone number,

291
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Speaker 2: I could have given them a description. Nobody ever asked me,

292
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Speaker 2: nobody were listened to me. And that's part of what

293
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Speaker 2: is the tragedy of this book is when you look

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Speaker 2: at the stories of the boys and their friends, which

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00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,440
Speaker 2: I try to reconstruct really by interviewing their best friends

296
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Speaker 2: at the time. Because so many people have carried these

297
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:37,000
Speaker 2: stories of these losses for so many years, you see

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Speaker 2: that if the police had been able to talk to

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Speaker 2: more of these teens and got more information, there would

300
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Speaker 2: have been things that would have led them to Dean Coral.

301
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Speaker 2: You know, later on Victims, he took the two boys

302
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,360
Speaker 2: who were washing to the swimming pool. Mally Winkle had

303
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,920
Speaker 2: worked for Dean Coral at his candy shop. His friend

304
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Speaker 2: David had gone there to the candy shop. You know,

305
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,400
Speaker 2: there were other kids who were directly connected to the

306
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,640
Speaker 2: candy shop who disappeared from the same neighborhood or from

307
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,239
Speaker 2: other neighborhoods around the heights. So if you know, if

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00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,640
Speaker 2: they had done some sort of sophisticated analysis, I think

309
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,359
Speaker 2: they could have they could have seen these connections to

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Speaker 2: Dean Coral. But as you say, the parents of you know,

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Speaker 2: Mally's mom did not suspect Dean Coral. She thought he

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00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:22,919
Speaker 2: was a good guy. She thought he was kind of

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Speaker 2: a big brother type looking out for her kid. Later on,

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Speaker 2: he killed Billy Balch, who was a kid whose parents

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Speaker 2: also trusted Dean Coral, who Billy had delivered candy for

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Speaker 2: Coral at his shop. And Billy and his brother were

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Speaker 2: both killed by Dean Coral in separate abductions. But his

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Speaker 2: parents went to them, went to Dean and said, you know,

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Speaker 2: are boys missing. Can you help us? Because they thought

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Speaker 2: Dean would be somebody who could help ask questions. And

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Speaker 2: of course, you know, Deane says, I know nothing about it,

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Speaker 2: so it would it might have been difficult to solve. However,

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Speaker 2: you know, I show in the that the leadership at

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Speaker 2: the police department at the time were very dismissive of

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Speaker 2: these young boys missing persons and of their parents and

326
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Speaker 2: also you know, tried to say, oh wait, there wasn't

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Speaker 2: anything that would have connected them, even though there was

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Speaker 2: at the time a map published in the Houston Chronicle

329
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,119
Speaker 2: in the Houston Post that showed how a number of

330
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Speaker 2: these victims actually lived just a couple of blocks from

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Speaker 2: one of the known accomplices. Because Coral. The murders are

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Speaker 2: discovered because a teenager named Elmer Wayne Henley kills Dean

333
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Speaker 2: Coral when Coral is killing yet trying to kill yet

334
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Speaker 2: another couple of his friends. He's already seen a whole

335
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Speaker 2: bunch of his other friends murdered by Dean Coral, and

336
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Speaker 2: he's done nothing to help them. But he decides enough enough,

337
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Speaker 2: and he picks up a gun and sheets and kills

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Speaker 2: Dean Coral. At that point, you know, the police don't

339
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,520
Speaker 2: have too much trouble finding the other victims missing persons

340
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Speaker 2: in the case files because so many of them were

341
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Speaker 2: Elmer Wayne Henley's classmates, went to the same junior high school,

342
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Speaker 2: so many of them lived within or three blocks of

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Speaker 2: Elma Wayne Henley, and so, you know, after the fact,

344
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,840
Speaker 2: the police acknowledged, you know, at least the detectives acknowledged

345
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 2: that there were there were things that would have led

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00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,360
Speaker 2: them to the connections if they looked at the time,

347
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,080
Speaker 2: though you know, there wasn't There weren't abe alerts, There

348
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:20,120
Speaker 2: weren't you know, awareness of sexual predators. There weren't computers

349
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Speaker 2: to sort of analyze the locations of these kinds of disappearances.

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Speaker 1: People were hitchhiking. I mean, hitchhiking was a normal thing

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Speaker 1: during this time period too, So clearly it's a much

352
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Speaker 1: less vigilant time period than we're in right now, particularly

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Speaker 1: with kids.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely people were hitchhiking, but people also really felt

355
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,440
Speaker 2: a lot more safe about just walking or riding their

356
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Speaker 2: bike to friends' houses. You know, a lot of these

357
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 2: kids were taken during the day. It was just a

358
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Speaker 2: different time, So I try to convey that too. I

359
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 2: don't think these parents were negligent. I don't think, you know,

360
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,199
Speaker 2: like I think at the time the police tried to

361
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,720
Speaker 2: claim that they were. But nearly all of these kids,

362
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 2: with the exception of I think on, was immediately reported

363
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 2: missing by their parents, and there were details provided in

364
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,199
Speaker 2: the case where the boy wasn't reported missing. He was

365
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 2: a little older than the other victims, and like some

366
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Speaker 2: of the other victims, his name was Roy Bunton. He

367
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,400
Speaker 2: had kind of fought with his mom about the length

368
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,680
Speaker 2: of his hair. He was nineteen, He had a job,

369
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 2: and so his family did think that he had just

370
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,639
Speaker 2: left home and that he had gone off to start

371
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Speaker 2: his own life somewhere else because there had been conflicts

372
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,159
Speaker 2: and you got to remember too, of course, and I

373
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Speaker 2: try to paint this world for everyone. You know, this

374
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Speaker 2: clearly wasn't the connected world we have today where everyone

375
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Speaker 2: has cell phones a geolocation. You know, people had their

376
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,679
Speaker 2: home phones and sometimes the home phones got disconnected. You know,

377
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 2: people moved. Some of these families used payphones or neighbors'

378
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,479
Speaker 2: phones to call the police to make the reports. Clearly,

379
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 2: you know when a kid went missing. In the case

380
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,120
Speaker 2: of one of these kids, that is the first kid

381
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 2: that Sharon identifies, Randy Hart, Randy was riding his bike

382
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 2: to his job at a gas station. Randy doesn't come

383
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 2: home the first night that his mob doesn't worry right

384
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,919
Speaker 2: away because she thinks maybe Randy decided to stay the

385
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 2: night with one of his friends. Sometimes he did that.

386
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,960
Speaker 2: It wasn't as easy to call home. They didn't have

387
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,200
Speaker 2: a home phone, so she didn't worry till the next

388
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 2: day when he didn't come home. But that was understandable

389
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:24,639
Speaker 2: at the time. It was just a lot harder to

390
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Speaker 2: get in touch and stay in touch.

391
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Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about the accomplices, which I mean,

392
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Speaker 1: it's incredible that he had one, let alone two young men.

393
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Speaker 1: One I think you know, we've had an author on

394
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Speaker 1: here talking about her extensive interviews with Elmer Wayne Henley,

395
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,399
Speaker 1: who was supposed to be a victim it sounded like,

396
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 1: and then turns out to be somebody who was forced

397
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 1: to work with Dean Coral. Tell me about the dynamic

398
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,680
Speaker 1: between Coral and these two young men who were involved here,

399
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Speaker 1: and ultimately, you know, Henley ends up shooting and killing Coral.

400
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Speaker 2: So Coral has a county shop, like I said, in

401
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 2: the heights, near an elementary school. And one of the

402
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,640
Speaker 2: kids who goes to a shop's name is David Brooks.

403
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,160
Speaker 2: And David Brooks parents had a messy divorce. His mom

404
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 2: moved to Beaumont. She was a nurse. He tried living

405
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:14,479
Speaker 2: with his mom for a while. They didn't get along.

406
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 2: He moved back with his dad, who had another wife

407
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,880
Speaker 2: and other children from another mother. He didn't get along

408
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: very well with his dad, so he started hanging out

409
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 2: more and more with Dean Coral. Coral does what we

410
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 2: now would call grooming. He pays David to accept blowjobs,

411
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,640
Speaker 2: you know, and David, as a young kid, sort of thinks, well,

412
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,479
Speaker 2: this is an easy way to make money. Over time,

413
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 2: David Brooks becomes aware that Dean Coral is snatching and

414
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 2: killing other kids, and he doesn't do anything about it.

415
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: At that point, Coral is sort of his surrogate father.

416
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 2: He's basically living with Coral. He becomes involved in inviting

417
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,680
Speaker 2: kids to quote party at Coral's place. Corals Squirrel really

418
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 2: doesn't drink himself, but he always has alcoholic drugs a

419
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 2: plenty for kids in the neighborhood. You know, in the

420
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 2: old days, he would have candy it his candy shop.

421
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 2: He would offer to take kids to the beach or fishing,

422
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 2: and the parties were part of that lure. David becomes

423
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,239
Speaker 2: somebody who invites people to parties. So David invites his

424
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 2: friend Elma Wayne Henley to one of those parties. And

425
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 2: Henley's version is that he thinks the first time he

426
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 2: was supposed to be a victim. But in Henley, Coral

427
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 2: finds someone who's even more willing than David Brooks to

428
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 2: invite people he knows David prior to bringing Henley to

429
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 2: Coral's house, and you know, of course, there were a

430
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 2: lot of kids who partied with Coral who were never killed.

431
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 2: Henley starts inviting people he knows even more than Brooks.

432
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Speaker 2: I think Brooks from the get go, is a little

433
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 2: worried that if he invites friends of his or people

434
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 2: he knows directly, you know, that could be traced back

435
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 2: to him. But Henley seems to be have no compunction about,

436
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 2: you know, inviting his neighbors Mally Winkle and David Hill.

437
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 2: The guys do we talked to the two boys who

438
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: were wearing their swimming suits. He claims he didn't know

439
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 2: about that. But anyway, by the time he's involved, his

440
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: friends have already been killed by Dean Coral, and he

441
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 2: gets involved in in inviting people he does know well

442
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 2: to party with Coral, including Franka Gary, and after Franka

443
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 2: Gary is tortured and killed, Elmer Wayne Henley becomes the

444
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 2: boyfriend of Frank's girlfriend and then and then Elmer Wayne

445
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 2: Henley brings in another neighbor of his, Mark Scott. He's there.

446
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 2: He's part of it, either in the body disposal crew

447
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 2: or the recruitment clew and two other boys from his

448
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 2: neighborhood who went to school with our broad end. The

449
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 2: murders accelerate when Henley comes aboard and how Antley tells

450
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 2: Sharon uh doctor Derek he came to enjoy killing it

451
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 2: became something he liked. David Brooks was never as fourth

452
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 2: in interviews as Henley was. Henley sort of enjoyed doing

453
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 2: a lot of interviews. Lately, the Texas prison system has

454
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 2: cut down those interviews. He's not allowed to talk to

455
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 2: the press anymore, but for years he took some pleasure

456
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 2: in it. Maybe that was his way of compensating, or maybe,

457
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 2: you know, helping to identify the victims was his way

458
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 2: of coping. I don't know, but there's no question that

459
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 2: there were a lot of people. The number of murders

460
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 2: accelerated after Elmer Wayne Henley became involved. But we also

461
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 2: know more about who was killed because Elmer Wayne Henley

462
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 2: cooperated with police and provided information about the names of

463
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 2: the victims.

464
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 1: Why do you think that Dean Coral is not as

465
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 1: well known as John Wayne Gacy? First I thought homophobia,

466
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: but that would not be the case. Is it the

467
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 1: vision of boys being buried in Gaysey's house yard wherever

468
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: it was, versus Dean Coral who had kind of taken

469
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: them off site, or what do you think that that is?

470
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 1: Where there's this war around John Wayne Gacy, but really

471
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: not around Dean Coral. At least the people that I

472
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: know outside of the state of Texas were not that

473
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: familiar with this case.

474
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 2: I think it's because Dean Coral was killed in nineteen

475
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 2: seventy three. He didn't have three decades to develop a

476
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 2: following as a serial killer, you know, he didn't. In fact,

477
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 2: there's an episode in the book where I talk about

478
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 2: how a prosecutor at Elmer Wayne Henley's retrial because Elmer

479
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 2: Wyne Henley did it get a lot of publicity at

480
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 2: the time. But he wasn't the main killer. He wasn't

481
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 2: the guy who did all of these murders. You know,

482
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: he was connected to maybe half, but he wasn't this

483
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: main killer. He wasn't the instigator of everything. He was

484
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 2: a henchman, you know, or a victim, depending on how

485
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 2: you want to look at things. Dean Coral is dead.

486
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 2: He never can tell his life story. His family doesn't

487
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 2: tell his life story. They don't go after the accomplices,

488
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 2: so that doesn't come out. Only some of the murders

489
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: are discussed at a trial. There's only six or seven

490
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 2: of the cases that are discussed. Trials are held in

491
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 2: the early seventies and the appeals are you know, quickly

492
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 2: dispatched that no one was sentenced to death. You know,

493
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 2: Gaysey was sentenced to death, and the death penalty generates

494
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 2: more attention. You know, Elma, Wayne Henley is serving life

495
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 2: sentences and David Brooks never gave any interviews and died

496
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: of COVID. So there are reasons that And I would

497
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 2: argue that some of these secrets that I'm revealing right

498
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 2: now in this book are things that people just didn't

499
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: know about the case. That the reasons why it still

500
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 2: was important, why in some ways Dean Coral should be

501
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 2: even more famous than John Wayne Gacy because there were

502
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 2: all these other things going on around his murders. During

503
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 2: Ellmerwayne Henley's retrial, as I said, for a while, Emma,

504
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: Wayne Henley was just sucking up the publicity and really

505
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 2: excited about maybe being a movie during the retrial because

506
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 2: his first convictions were overturned because there was some there

507
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 2: was a lot of communication between the press and the

508
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: members of the jury, and so I judge Grantedwayne Henley

509
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: retroll and corpus Christie and they have it at this

510
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 2: courthouse that in the seventies was very modern. It looked

511
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 2: like a Jetsons movie set. Fear to do live action jetsons,

512
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 2: you would set it at the Corpus Christie Courthouse. But anyway,

513
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 2: there's this weird scene where Henley during the trial, passes

514
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 2: the prosecutor on the way to the bathroom and he

515
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 2: says to the prosecutor, you know, he's kind of upset

516
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: about the fact that Gasey has broken his record for

517
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: the number of victims because at the time, you know,

518
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 2: in the modern era of homicide investigations, Dean Coral was considered,

519
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: you know, the number one killer in terms of the

520
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 2: number of victims. And so Henley says, you know, this

521
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: bothers me that Gasey, you know, is now being creudits

522
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: having more victims. If you give me a deal in

523
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 2: this case, I'll tell you where some more bodies are.

524
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: So there's this sense of, you know, he did want

525
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 2: to be infamous. Yeah, but you know the killing of

526
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 2: Kral made the tension and the interest in Coral of

527
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: short drays. You know, his story is sort of lost

528
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: when his life ends.

529
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: Did the prosecutor take him up on that? I guess

530
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: Shorthand what happens after there's this confrontation with Henley and Coral.

531
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: Coral ends up dead. My memory is that Henley was

532
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: the one who, you know, was able to tell them

533
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: about the boat house where a lot of the bodies were.

534
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: And then I can't remember did he turn in David

535
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: Brooks or did David Brooks realize something was happening and

536
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: he spoke to the police first.

537
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 2: So you're right, you know, Elder Wayne Henley kills Coral

538
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 2: when cREL tries to kill two more of his friends,

539
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 2: finally cracks. They called the police, and then he decides

540
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 2: he tells the police. He doesn't tell them that he

541
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: helped korl kill people, but he tells police that he

542
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 2: knows where Coral kept a lot of other bodies. I mean,

543
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: he leads the Pasadena police to this boat shed that

544
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 2: Coral had rented in Houston, and it's every bit as

545
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 2: grizzly as the Gaycy murger scene. You know, there's awful,

546
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 2: a huge excavation that last for two days and they

547
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 2: on earth what they think are fifteen bodies, but there's

548
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: even more there. Later they find extra bones and they realize,

549
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 2: you know, the medical examagers at the time realized they

550
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 2: probably left some behind. And that's part of the revelations

551
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 2: of the book what was really in that boatshed? And

552
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 2: then David Brooks separately, when he's starting to hear about

553
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: what's happening at the boatshed, he goes to Houston Police

554
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: and offers to give a statement, and he gives a statement,

555
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: and then eventually he and Elmr Wayne Henley, not eventually

556
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 2: but very quickly go and lead police to two other locations.

557
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: Actually Henley does shows them a couple more bodies in

558
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 2: a woods in an area near Coral's family had a

559
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,719
Speaker 2: fishing cabinet in East Texas. And then Brooks and Henley

560
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: together help the police search this big beach on the

561
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: Gulf of Mexico where they find more graves. So Brooks

562
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: is assisting as well. Brooks, though was never as forthcoming

563
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 2: about his involvement in the murders to his death, he

564
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: claimed that he was more accessory after the fact that

565
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 2: he was coerce, that he was controlled by this man

566
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: who was so much older than him and had so

567
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: much impact on his life. Now, I think you know,

568
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: Brooks was obviously an accomplice as guilty as Henley was

569
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 2: in many ways, but Henley was more forthcoming about his

570
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: involvement and what he did, and his active involvement in

571
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: killing people.

572
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: He knew we're in Texas. Why was this not a

573
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: death penalty case? I mean, not taking politics out of this,

574
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: I'm surprised that either of these men were not put

575
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,479
Speaker 1: on death row or am I wrong about that?

576
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 2: If you remember in the seventies that death penalty was overturned,

577
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,959
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, by the Supreme Court for a period, and

578
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,479
Speaker 2: these murders occurred during the period when the penalty had

579
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: been overturned. The Texas legislature was putting in a new

580
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: death penalty statute that would pass muster and not be discriminatory.

581
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: That death penalty was overturned because so many more people

582
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 2: of color were being put to death, particularly in the South.

583
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: They passed a statute that the prosecutor at the time

584
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 2: determined could not be applied to this case. That the case,

585
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 2: the period of time, and the wording the statute made

586
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 2: it impossible for Harris County, which was is still one

587
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: of the counties that most often sought the death penalty.

588
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 2: They felt it was impossible for them to prosecute either

589
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 2: of these teenagers for capital murder with the penalty of death. Yeah, okay,

590
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: so it's kind of a fluke procedural blip in the

591
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: history books that these two boys are exempt from the

592
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: death penalty. Now, today they would not have been prosecuted either,

593
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: because the death penalties not applied to juveniles. But in

594
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: the seventies, it certainly was, in the eighties, it certainly

595
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 2: was in the nineties, it certainly was.

596
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: Let me kind of switch over to the end of

597
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: that story and the beginning of doctor Derek's story. So

598
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: they both are given life in prison, both them, both

599
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: of these young men. Is that right?

600
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: That's right?

601
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: And you said Brooks died of COVID, but Henley is

602
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: still alive. Is that right?

603
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:03,479
Speaker 2: Yes, he is still alive.

604
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: So now that we think case closed. And then you've

605
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: described the scene where tell me the year again, where

606
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: doctor Derek sees these this box of bones and kind

607
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: of reopens this case. How does that story start?

608
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 2: Well, so it's in the early two thousands when she

609
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 2: gets this job at the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office,

610
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: and she's thrilled because she has just become a forensic anthropologist,

611
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: and she's really she knows that the Harris County Medical

612
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: Examiner's Office has this backlog of three hundred to four

613
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 2: hundred unidentified people. She knows about that because she's been

614
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 2: in Harris County working with the health department doing analysis

615
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 2: of murderers and deaths of young children and trying to

616
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 2: do preventive work. And then she talks the me who

617
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 2: she knows from other work into trying to assign her

618
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: as an anthropologist, and somebody is working to develop more

619
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: of us secialten forensic anthropology to work on those cases,

620
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 2: because she knows that A, there are murders that are

621
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 2: not being solved because of all that backlog of unidentified.

622
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: B that there are families out there who still need answers.

623
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: And see, she knows that the technology has evolved, you know,

624
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 2: and that so that so many of these cases are

625
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 2: from the seventies, the eighties, the nineties when DNA wasn't available,

626
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 2: and so since you know, the late eighties, early nineties,

627
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 2: DNA becomes a tool for identifications. Of the seventies, the

628
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: main tools they had really were teeth, you know, dental work.

629
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 2: Did the kids go to a dentist or not. If

630
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 2: they didn't, boy, it could be really hard for them

631
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: to be identified. If they broke a bone, an next

632
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,760
Speaker 2: ray it might help. But with the kind of remains

633
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: that were found in this case, you know, which were

634
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: pretty seriously decomposed remains. Even though there were some kids

635
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 2: who had been killed the same summer that the bodies

636
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 2: were found, most of these kids had been dead for

637
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 2: as long as two three years and they were only bones.

638
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 2: So knows as a forensic anthropologist, you know, when she

639
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 2: finds these boxes of bones, it's part of this greater

640
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 2: work that she's tried to take on of, you know,

641
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 2: looking at this backlog of unsolved dead people. But when

642
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: she sees those boxes, she has a lot of hope

643
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 2: that she can apply tools that weren't available in the

644
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 2: seventies to help solve these cases. And that turns out

645
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 2: to be true.

646
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: That's incredible, And you know, I told you at the

647
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: beginning of this I'm so fascinated with forensic anthropology. For

648
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 1: one of my first shows, I went to the what

649
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: I hate the phrase, the body farm, you know, at

650
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: Texas State University and met with the head of the

651
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: program there, Daniel.

652
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: He's an incredible guy.

653
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he's so kind and you know, it

654
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: was not easy walking around in the field. He took

655
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: me out into the field to show, you know, where

656
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: the bodies go and the kind of research they do.

657
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 1: And I think when I was out there, they were

658
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,240
Speaker 1: maybe building a mock house and setting it on fire

659
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 1: for the FBI or somebody to kind of show the

660
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: way that you know, bodies burn so that they can

661
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 1: solve cases. I asked Daniel to please give me the

662
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: boundaries between when does the work of a medical examiner

663
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: pathologist end and when does the work of an anthropologist begin.

664
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: How do you know who to call in for what case?

665
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 2: Is it?

666
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 1: Once they're at the bone level that that's where you

667
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 1: would bring in an anthropologist.

668
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I mean, pathologists do the autopsies.

669
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 2: They're the physicians, and they you know, do the plected,

670
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: did the data, you know, they analyzed the work ins,

671
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 2: They order the tests of say, you know, to see

672
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 2: if someone is had consumed drugs or not, you know,

673
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: and they make the determination of manner and cause of death.

674
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 2: You know, was this a murder victim, was this an

675
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 2: accidental death, Was this a natural death? Or was this unknown?

676
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: You know, they do that their work often contributes to identifications.

677
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 2: Always in the bigger cities, there were people called investigators

678
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 2: who were sort of more like detectives. And my book

679
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 2: has a really, i think an interesting story of a

680
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 2: young woman who started out as a secretary because that

681
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 2: was what they used to hire women as in the seventies,

682
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 2: but who was an aspiring investigator and becomes eventually the

683
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 2: chief investigator, who helped dig up clues on these cases,

684
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: who helped try to find the dental records. And at

685
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 2: the time, even in the seventies, the Harris County office

686
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: had at guiding Joe j. Hempstek, who was a really

687
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 2: kind of famous medical examiner and the time, who was

688
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: pretty cutting edge because he had a forensic dentist helping him,

689
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 2: who was doing sort of what you think of anthropologists

690
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 2: doing today, looking at the tee, looking at bones. They

691
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 2: were doing some of that. So flash forward and you're right,

692
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: there's this movement among anthropologists who start who are initially

693
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 2: who are studying bones from prehistory and history in the

694
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 2: Smithsonian other places, and the FBI starts to ask them

695
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,280
Speaker 2: to consult in these more difficult cases involving bones bones

696
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 2: only because pathologists have trouble with those cases that often

697
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 2: those are considered, you know, just impossible to solve, and

698
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 2: these forensic anthropologists develop out of the bigger group of anthropologists,

699
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: and they start to develop, like you said, the research

700
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 2: at places like the original body Farm, which is in Tennessee,

701
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 2: and then places like the Body Ranch which you're describing

702
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 2: in San Marcos, Texas and other places where they collect

703
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 2: a lot of data on how people decompose, how body.

704
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: They study things. These forensic anthropologists study things like the

705
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 2: rate of decomposition in different situations, like if they're in

706
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,280
Speaker 2: a burning house, or if they're in a car buried

707
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 2: or not buried, what predators might do, so that they

708
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 2: collect scientific data on decomposition on bones that allows for identifications,

709
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 2: allows for clues to be gained from the analysis of

710
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 2: bodies that mees, especially in the seventies, would never have

711
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: been able to gather on their own, you know. Like

712
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: for example, Sharon figures out fairly quickly on in her

713
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,760
Speaker 2: research on the first case, which involves the boy, turns

714
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: out to be Randy Harvey, who I call in the

715
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 2: first part of the book the boy with the boots

716
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 2: because he had a set of boots that were very

717
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 2: seventies and she bailed bell bottomed jeans. And she realizes

718
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: that in looking at the databases she has from all

719
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 2: this research and after doing her own examination of these bones,

720
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 2: that this boy was probably a lot younger than they

721
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: thought in the seventies. That he was simply a kid

722
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: who at age fifteen had already gotten pretty tall, was

723
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 2: about six feet, but he clearly had other characteristics in

724
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 2: his bones that she could tell and in his teeth

725
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: that he was likely a younger teen. And so when

726
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 2: they did the analysis on his bones in the seventies,

727
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 2: they might not have considered Randy, who was a missing person,

728
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 2: as a possible match for that set of remains because

729
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 2: they presumed he was older than he was based on

730
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: his size. So that's an example. But you know, there's

731
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 2: a lot of other data that forensic anthropologists can use

732
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 2: to kind of solve these cases that is really amazing,

733
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 2: And I try to go through a lot of that

734
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 2: technology without being too you know, in the weeds in

735
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 2: the book, but to try to give you some ideas

736
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 2: about how they could use a lot of different amazing

737
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 2: tools to figure out who people are based on their

738
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 2: bodies or their bones. So one of the things that

739
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,479
Speaker 2: becomes an important clue for Sharon is I think really

740
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,720
Speaker 2: interesting to me is that we think of race as

741
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 2: you know something, you check a box. Forensic anthropologists see

742
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 2: race as a kind of a continuum, and it's more

743
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 2: based on ethnicity. So one of the clues that I

744
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 2: think becomes important in one of these cases I think

745
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: is really interesting is she looks at the characteristics of

746
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 2: the teeth of two of the boys, and it's a

747
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 2: combination of teeth that more frequently occurs in people who

748
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 2: have some Native American heritage and maybe some wow European

749
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 2: heritage mixed, which of course is not incommon in the

750
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 2: United States. But there were just two boys in the

751
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 2: group of you know, thirty who had that same combination

752
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 2: of teeth, and that was one of the factors that

753
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,479
Speaker 2: allowed her to start to develop a hypothesis that really

754
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 2: came from a kind of a citizen tipster, a journalist

755
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,280
Speaker 2: who had looked at some of these cases, who said,

756
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: you know, one of these boys might be misidentified. She

757
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 2: started to think that that might be true because she

758
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 2: noticed that this boy's teeth were similar to another boy,

759
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 2: and that they could actually be brothers, and that there

760
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 2: were two sets of brothers that were murdered, but one

761
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 2: of the sets of brothers did seem like they were

762
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 2: the right brothers the other set. When she looked at them,

763
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 2: she could tell from the combination of teeth and what's

764
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,760
Speaker 2: known now about ethnicity, you know, characteristics, that the two brothers,

765
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: the second set of brothers were probably not correctly identified,

766
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 2: that in fact, the second brother was probably yet another

767
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 2: unidentified corpse, and she corrects that mistake by using teeth. Wow. Yeah,

768
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of different things can be factors

769
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: in forensic anthropology research, and you know, they relate to

770
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 2: a lot of times to the kinds of research that

771
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 2: are done at places like the body ranch that you

772
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 2: described in San Marcus, because that they're not just doing

773
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 2: research for fun. You know, they're trying to figure out

774
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 2: things that can help people solve cases or like you said,

775
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 2: identify immigrants. Yeah, and she goes through some of the

776
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 2: pitfalls and some of that. You know, some of that

777
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 2: research is very tricky, but it can help rule out

778
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 2: people too as much as it can help find the

779
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 2: right match.

780
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: One of the things that Daniel Wescott told me when

781
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 1: I interviewed him was oftentimes his work as a forensic

782
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: anthropologist is to exclude things, not include. He said, very

783
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: rarely am I able to say definitively yes, this person

784
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 1: did this or that he said. I can oftentimes say, though, no,

785
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 1: this is not the case. Is she finding these, you know,

786
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: like the brother or Randy, finding these people who might

787
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: have been previously not ident and then following up with

788
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 1: DNA testing a decade later? Or how is tell me

789
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 1: the process? She finds bones, She has no idea who

790
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: this is and then where does it go from there

791
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: for her to figure it out?

792
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 2: Well, she initially finds three sets of bones, and she

793
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: later discovers more. You know, she does what they did

794
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 2: in the seventies. She looks at the old case file,

795
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 2: she looks at the old missing persons reports, and she

796
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 2: does new examinations of the bones, new examination of the

797
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 2: bones to see if there was anything missed in the

798
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 2: seventies or anything any estimates of age that might be

799
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 2: different than what was determined in the seventies. And so

800
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 2: she does find things that seem off in terms of

801
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 2: height estimates or age estimates that allow her to widen

802
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 2: the net in terms of who they could be. And

803
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 2: that's what's so important with that age estimate change in

804
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 2: the Randy case, because she sees Randy's name as a

805
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 2: missing person in one of the police reports that's in

806
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 2: the stack from the seventies file. She sees his name

807
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 2: referenced in one of the old police reports that she

808
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 2: gets from the DA's office. She is, you know, doing

809
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 2: some kind of quote unquote detective work along with her

810
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: forensic work to try to see if there are potential

811
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 2: matches in that universe of missing persons from the segnenties.

812
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 2: And of course then she tries to use some databases.

813
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 2: She happens to be a little bit of a database nerd,

814
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 2: and she tries to see if any of these kids

815
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 2: then popped up as a live later you know that

816
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 2: they just in the seventies were listed is missing, but

817
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 2: there's no trace of Randy Harvey. You know, Randy Harvey's

818
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 2: missing forever. And then she goes ahead and tries to

819
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,800
Speaker 2: find his family because if you can find a parent,

820
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 2: a DNA match can be a pretty easy thing to do,

821
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: which is to verify a potential identification. So what she

822
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: does with Randy Harvey, she looks through his missing person

823
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,879
Speaker 2: file and she discovers that yes, his age, his estimated height,

824
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 2: and the clothes that he was wearing at the time

825
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 2: he went missing seemed to match what she has, but

826
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,240
Speaker 2: to really know for sure that he is this case

827
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 2: that has been unidentified since nineteen seventy three, she has

828
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 2: to try to find either his parents or his siblings,

829
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 2: and she knows that there's a chance that his mother

830
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 2: and father are not alive, and she only has his

831
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 2: mother's part of his mother's name on an old report,

832
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 2: and she starts looking for his mother, and she has

833
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 2: one of his sister's names that one of his sister's

834
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 2: kind of heartbreakingly called the morgue when she was a

835
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 2: teenager asking about her brother, and so she finds the

836
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 2: sole message, the while you were out note from the sister.

837
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 2: So she tries to find Leonore, Randy's little sister. It

838
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 2: takes a while because Randy, it turns out, was his

839
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 2: name was spelled Randell, and so she doesn't find it

840
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 2: the first time she's looking for his name in public records.

841
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 2: His mother's name was Francis, but her full name was

842
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: Love Francis, so it takes a while before she can

843
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 2: find the names. And then when she finally does find

844
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 2: Francis Harvey, his mom, she's just recently died, and that

845
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 2: really sends her into a tailspan but then she looks

846
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 2: for his sister, and it's through a whole lot of research,

847
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,720
Speaker 2: looking through a lot of obituaries of other people named Harvey,

848
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 2: that she finds someone who seems to possibly be his sister,

849
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 2: and she just calls. She calls a lot of people,

850
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 2: and finally one day she gets a kind of a

851
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 2: distant cousin who says, yes, I know I know Leonora Harvey,

852
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 2: and I can give you her phone number. And it

853
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,240
Speaker 2: turns out Lenore lives just about an hour north of Houston,

854
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 2: So all this time his sister has been only an

855
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,439
Speaker 2: hour away. And he actually has two sisters who are living,

856
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,919
Speaker 2: one full sister and one half sister. But that makes

857
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 2: the process of identification tricky because a sibling match in

858
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 2: DNA can be trickier. His siblings don't share as much

859
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 2: DNA as parents and children do, and so identifications can

860
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 2: be verified better if you have more than one sibling.

861
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 2: It turned out in this case one of the siblings

862
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 2: was a full sibling and one was a half sibling,

863
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 2: so there was some question about that. So, you know,

864
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 2: DNA isn't the exact magic formula for identifications. We hope

865
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 2: it would be. It's pretty amazing if you have a parent,

866
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 2: but these kids had been gone for so long that

867
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 2: very few of the parents were still alive. She did.

868
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 2: Some of the identifications she made, she was able to

869
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 2: get the mothers or fathers, but most of them she

870
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 2: made through verified through sibling DNA matching, which required more

871
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 2: than one sibling in most cases.

872
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 1: So that confirmed Randy, then.

873
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 2: Yes, it did. It did that along with the characteristics

874
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 2: in his case. A lot of the other boys, there

875
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 2: were no personal effects found, but in Randy's case, there

876
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 2: were personal effects found that also helped verify his physical characteristics.

877
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 2: She could still see the size of his belt, she

878
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: could still see the size of his shoes. His sisters

879
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 2: could still look at what he was wearing and recognize

880
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,240
Speaker 2: it as a uniform that was issued by the gas station,

881
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 2: the jacket that where he worked the day he was missing,

882
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: so those were there were additional clues for Randy's case,

883
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 2: and his full sister happened to share sort of some

884
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 2: unusual facial characteristics. They had both had kind of long jaws.

885
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 2: That was something that counted. So in a way, it

886
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 2: was the combination of factors that allowed her to figure

887
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 2: out who Randy was. Randy was also very associated with

888
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 2: the case. He had been considered by police at the

889
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 2: time to be a possible murdered victim, that they just

890
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:23,720
Speaker 2: hadn't made the connection.

891
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 1: So what was the reaction the sisters once Sharon? I mean,

892
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: normally a detective would disclose this, but now you've got

893
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: this forensic anthropologist calling and saying, I think I can

894
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,760
Speaker 1: identify your brother who's been missing for more than thirty years.

895
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 1: Was it relief from them or what was it? Do

896
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: you think?

897
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 2: I think in most of these cases there was a relief,

898
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 2: a tempered kind of happiness. I mean, you can't say

899
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 2: that this makes someone happy to know for sure someone's.

900
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 1: Dead, especially in this way. How awful, I mean, to

901
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 1: know what he did, how awful.

902
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 2: But so many of these families had suspected that their

903
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 2: siblings were victims of this killer for different reasons. To

904
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 2: finally know for sure after so long, to be able

905
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 2: to actually have a burial ceremony, to commemorate the memory

906
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 2: of your brother, those things brought a lot of I

907
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 2: think relief to the two sisters, and they certainly gave

908
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 2: answers and they addressed I think what had for a

909
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 2: lot of people in other cases been sort of the

910
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 2: state of suspended animation, of not knowing, and so that

911
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 2: not having any ability to sort of move on or

912
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 2: have any answers. And so I didn't talk to all

913
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 2: of the siblings in these cases. I did talk to

914
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,240
Speaker 2: some of them. A lot of them expressed at least

915
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 2: a relief at finally being able to know what had happened.

916
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 2: It's an answer, an answer, an answer, and an ability

917
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 2: to have a ceremony to know for sure that the

918
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 2: person was dead. There were different circumstances with each of

919
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 2: the people she identified, but in most cases I think

920
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 2: there was a relief, and in some cases there was

921
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 2: also the knowledge that a misidentification had been made, but

922
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 2: that misidentification allowed another family to understand what had happened

923
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 2: to their lost loved one, And so some families had

924
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 2: a sense that the you know, the revelations in their

925
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 2: cases were leading to other families getting answers, and so

926
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 2: there was some you know, then there becomes some sort

927
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 2: of a purpose that I think sometimes is helpful. And

928
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 2: in Randy's case, there was also a law in Texas

929
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,399
Speaker 2: named for him, because the law in Texas that gave

930
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 2: crime victims some money for burial or for expenses had

931
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 2: formally excluded anyone before the law was passed, and after

932
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: this case became public, that legislature changed the laws so

933
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 2: that someone who was identified after that law was passed

934
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 2: could still obtain victim assistance money for a funeral, because

935
00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 2: this family had no assistance for a funeral for Randy.

936
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 2: And so that's part of how I think his memory

937
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 2: was in a way honored and celebrated after Sharon made

938
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 2: this discovery, and of course the fact that he was

939
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 2: identified brought in a lot of other tips about other

940
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 2: missing teams from the seventies that helped her identify other kids.

941
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 1: Tell me the total, how many initially were confirmed? I

942
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,800
Speaker 1: know more than twenty eight was the number I had read?

943
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,839
Speaker 1: What was the number that she added to that when

944
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 1: it was all said and done.

945
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 2: Twenty eight includes one of her identifications that twenty seven

946
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 2: was the official number initially. You know, there were three

947
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 2: others whose identities she's confirms that were not initially counted,

948
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 2: and then there were ones that she you know, and

949
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 2: obviously of the twenty seven, so she adds to the

950
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 2: victim list three names. But of those original victims, she

951
00:51:54,880 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 2: identifies on two, three, four, five, she identifies five of them,

952
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: so she's you know, works on eight eight cases really

953
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 2: intensely and has discoveries, not all of which have been

954
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 2: announced to the public, by the way, so people reading

955
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,359
Speaker 2: my book will learn about a couple of things that

956
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:14,720
Speaker 2: haven't been announced before.

957
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: I was wondering where we are. I didn't know if

958
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 1: this was the end of the case for her, or

959
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 1: is this work going to continue on this particular case.

960
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 2: Well, she left the office a few years ago. She

961
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:30,359
Speaker 2: still she teaches and works on forensic anthropology cases as

962
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,439
Speaker 2: a consultant, but she left the Harris County office, and

963
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 2: there are other forensic anthropologists who have worked on these cases.

964
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 2: But after she left, really there was no one bringing

965
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 2: that same body of knowledge and focus to these cases.

966
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 2: So I think that's why some of these latest discoveries

967
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 2: that were confirmed were not announced.

968
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: When you were done with this, you know, you've done

969
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 1: all your reporting, You've done all your writing. First of all,

970
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 1: I think this must have been a very difficult book

971
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: to write, simply because the details Dean Coral's crimes were

972
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: so to me horrific. But after that's all said and done,

973
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: what do you take away from this? What does this

974
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: add to you as an author, in your understanding of

975
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: crime and forensics and who we are as a society.

976
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 2: You know, my interest in unidentified and missing persons goes

977
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 2: back further. It goes back to when I lived in Seattle,

978
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 2: which was at the time I lived there, still plagued

979
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 2: by the fact that the most prolific known serial killer

980
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 2: in American history, the Green River Killer, had preyed upon many, many,

981
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 2: many women, depending on who you believe, the total somewhere

982
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 2: between forty and sixty and many of those women had

983
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 2: not been identified right away, some more identified after he

984
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 2: was eventually caught and prosecuted, I mean decades later. But

985
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 2: they had one of the first forensic anthropologists of any

986
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 2: county the state had a forensic anthropologist who worked with

987
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,919
Speaker 2: them on those cases, and they were doing some really

988
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 2: cutting edge things. And I met her when I lived

989
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 2: in Seattle and worked in Seattle, and a reporter named

990
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 2: Lewis cam who's still in Seattle and works for NBC,

991
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 2: and I did a statewide look at every missing person

992
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 2: that was had a case file anywhere in Washington, so

993
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 2: much smaller state than Texas, and we wrote about what

994
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 2: were some of the reasons that some of these cases

995
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 2: weren't being solved, and one of them was you know

996
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 2: that many of these were in ural jurisdictions where there

997
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 2: isn't money or knowledge necessarily of the need for forensic

998
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 2: anthropology or even something as simple as doing a good

999
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 2: drawing of the person's face and putting it on the Internet.

1000
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 2: And so we wrote about how people get forgotten about

1001
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 2: and how then that allows killers to go and prosecuted.

1002
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 2: And we did a series of stories and because of

1003
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 2: those stories, we were able to help forensic anthropologists and

1004
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 2: investigators identify I think it was eight different people. Two

1005
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 2: of them were mother and child murder victim from the

1006
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 2: eighties who who remained unidentified for decades, and that was

1007
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 2: the story that I worked on. And I had moved

1008
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 2: to Houston when I got a phone call from Australia

1009
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 2: and it was the brother of the murder victim, the

1010
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:20,399
Speaker 2: woman who had recognized a sketch that I had gotten

1011
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 2: a forensic artist to do for us as part of

1012
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 2: our series as a picture of the baby, the toddler

1013
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 2: who belonged to his missing sister. The police followed up

1014
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 2: on that lead and that was a DNA match. The

1015
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 2: idea that there are so many people whose cases are forgotten,

1016
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 2: and there are so many families who remain without answers.

1017
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 2: Was really a personal one for me when I moved

1018
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 2: to Houston. When I moved to Texas, and I knew

1019
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 2: about the huge caseload that Harris County had because when

1020
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 2: I was in Seattle, they were talking to me about

1021
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 2: how you know, there were certain counties in America that

1022
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 2: had huge case loads. And one of the reasons they

1023
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 2: had such a huge caseload was though that the Mammy's

1024
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 2: Office had done so a good job of documenting the

1025
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:06,800
Speaker 2: unidentified with the hope that someday the technology would allow

1026
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 2: for them to be identified. It was an issue I

1027
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 2: cared about, and I knew that there was a power

1028
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 2: for the press and for science to help solve these

1029
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 2: cases back then, and I met doctor Derek Sharon when

1030
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 2: I first moved to Houston and talked to her about

1031
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 2: her work, and it was just unfolding then really as

1032
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 2: I got to Houston, and it kept unfolding over a

1033
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,320
Speaker 2: long period of time, and at some point we started

1034
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 2: talking and I said, have you ever thought about writing

1035
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 2: a book?

1036
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: And you know.

1037
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 2: It seems like there might be something to say about

1038
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 2: your work, and we ended up working on this book together.

1039
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 2: You know. She provided a lot of research and provided

1040
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 2: fact checking. I did all the writing and other reporting.

1041
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 2: It took a lot longer than I expected, and I

1042
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 2: ended up interviewing one hundred people because I think these

1043
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 2: stories are important because of the people who get the

1044
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 2: answers and the people who were unidentified. So my challenge

1045
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 2: in this story, to me was to bring back to

1046
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:03,399
Speaker 2: life as much as I could these eight boys these

1047
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:06,839
Speaker 2: cases she worked on, talked to their friends. I had

1048
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 2: teenage boys myself, and I thought, if I'm going to

1049
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 2: learn anything about them, I need to find their best friends.

1050
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:15,280
Speaker 2: And that was hard, but I was rewarding too, because

1051
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 2: a lot of people told me stories they had never

1052
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 2: told and people who thought these stories were still really important.

1053
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 2: There were a lot of people who said, you know,

1054
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 2: the real full story of these cases and what was

1055
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 2: covered up about these crimes needs to be out there

1056
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 2: for us and for other people to heal and for

1057
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 2: us to accept what happened. You know, I'm hoping that

1058
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 2: my book serves the purpose for that greater community of

1059
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 2: the friends and family of these those boys. I know

1060
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 2: there's some people who will be harmed by these stories

1061
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 2: being retold, but I'm hoping that there's a greater value

1062
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 2: in the stories being shared.

1063
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1064
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

1065
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are

1066
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

1067
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

1068
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

1069
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi.

1070
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

1071
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by

1072
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and

1073
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More

1074
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 1: Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod.