1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,880
Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

2
00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:03,760
Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

3
00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,760
Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

4
00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:07,760
Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

5
00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,040
Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

6
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,320
Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

7
00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,040
Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

8
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,480
Speaker 1: Or shoot us an email at trust Me pod at

9
00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:19,880
Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

10
00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,239
Speaker 3: Trust me, trust for trust me.

11
00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:24,919
Speaker 1: I'm like a swat person.

12
00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,280
Speaker 3: I've never lived to you, and we never have a live.

13
00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:33,000
Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers, don't.

14
00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:34,000
Speaker 4: Welcome to trust Me.

15
00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,360
Speaker 2: The podcast about cults and extreme belief and manipulation from

16
00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,279
Speaker 2: two Shiny Unhappy people who've actually experienced it.

17
00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:41,520
Speaker 4: I am Lola Blanc.

18
00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:42,800
Speaker 3: And I am Megan Elizabeth.

19
00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,199
Speaker 2: We're Unhappy today, But today is part one of our

20
00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,240
Speaker 2: interview with Lindsay Williams, makeup artist, podcaster and former member

21
00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,640
Speaker 2: of the Institute of Basic Life Principles or the IBLP.

22
00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:54,880
Speaker 2: You may have seen Lindsay in the recent documentary Shiny

23
00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,520
Speaker 2: Happy People, which delves into the Duggar family connection to

24
00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,760
Speaker 2: the IBLP. This week, she'll tell us about what her

25
00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,640
Speaker 2: childchildhood was like being homeschooled using a series of non

26
00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,800
Speaker 2: academic books called the Wisdom Booklets, and being told cabbage

27
00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,600
Speaker 2: patch dolls were demonic, how physical punishment was the tenant

28
00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,480
Speaker 2: of the faith, and how women and girls lived under

29
00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,440
Speaker 2: the umbrella of authority of their fathers or husbands.

30
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,000
Speaker 1: We'll discuss the group's leader, Bill Gotthird, Lindsay's time at

31
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,959
Speaker 1: ATI or the Advanced Training Institute, and the teachings that

32
00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,280
Speaker 1: indoctrinated members of the group to believe that sexual abuse

33
00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,240
Speaker 1: was always the fault of the temptress and that harm

34
00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,560
Speaker 1: to their body was actually a positive thing because it

35
00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,560
Speaker 1: made them even more spiritually powerful. And finally, we'll start

36
00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,240
Speaker 1: to dive into how she was recruited by Bill to

37
00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:42,640
Speaker 1: come work at the IBLP headquarters using some inappropriate questions

38
00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:44,240
Speaker 1: to be continued next week.

39
00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,319
Speaker 2: He's up topics today will include themes of sexual and

40
00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:52,040
Speaker 2: physical abuse before we dive in with Lindsay. Megan, what's

41
00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,920
Speaker 2: your cultiest thing this week?

42
00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,680
Speaker 1: So we watched Shiny Happy People to interview Lindsay obviously,

43
00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,440
Speaker 1: which is on Amazon and I couldn't recommend it more.

44
00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,160
Speaker 1: It's really interesting. It reminds me a little bit.

45
00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:04,040
Speaker 3: Of how I was raised.

46
00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,120
Speaker 1: Only thank God, Mine wasn't that bad. The blanket training

47
00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,320
Speaker 1: that they do in it is horrible.

48
00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:11,520
Speaker 3: It's horrible.

49
00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,120
Speaker 1: They'll put a baby on a blanket and put something

50
00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,720
Speaker 1: the baby wants outside the blanket and then just keep

51
00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,240
Speaker 1: like so upset hatting them to teach them to stop

52
00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:20,399
Speaker 1: reaching for stuff they want.

53
00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,560
Speaker 3: It's literally the sickest thing I've ever heard.

54
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,680
Speaker 1: But anyway, my cultiest news this week is that Jim

55
00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,720
Speaker 1: Bob and Michelle Dugger are desperately trying to keep their

56
00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,760
Speaker 1: four youngest children under eighteen from seeing the documentary.

57
00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,640
Speaker 4: M what's the source.

58
00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:43,480
Speaker 1: The source is somebody in their documentary crew who said

59
00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,280
Speaker 1: that they're trying to keep actually a lot of the

60
00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,320
Speaker 1: family from watching it and saying it's propaganda, and they sent.

61
00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:51,560
Speaker 3: Out some sort of email.

62
00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,239
Speaker 1: I think, but you know, of course everybody's going to

63
00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,200
Speaker 1: watch it, but these four youngest kids they're really trying

64
00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,680
Speaker 1: to keep under the you know, the spell of it

65
00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,160
Speaker 1: being just pure propaganda.

66
00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,600
Speaker 2: Well I am not remotely surprised, considering it's critical of

67
00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:10,480
Speaker 2: them and their religion and yeah, all kinds of yucky

68
00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:11,120
Speaker 2: things do.

69
00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,160
Speaker 3: Jill Duggar is such a badass totally. I know.

70
00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,320
Speaker 2: I cannot imagine how difficult. I mean, in general, this

71
00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,120
Speaker 2: is just like a difficult thing to come out and

72
00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,720
Speaker 2: talk about the experiences that you've had in a very

73
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,680
Speaker 2: publicized family, even if it's not a publicized family, But

74
00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,840
Speaker 2: to talk about such difficult stuff publicly, like, it's very brave.

75
00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:31,240
Speaker 3: It's very very brave.

76
00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:33,760
Speaker 1: What about you, what's the cultiest thing that happened to

77
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:34,520
Speaker 1: you this week?

78
00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,680
Speaker 2: Well, did you see this like anti LGBTQ protest at

79
00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,160
Speaker 2: a North Hollywood elementary school that happened. No, Yes, it

80
00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,160
Speaker 2: was horrible. Y'all can read about the protest. There were

81
00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,120
Speaker 2: some really horrific things that were said, and there's a

82
00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:50,920
Speaker 2: lot of hate being spread. There was also a counter

83
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,560
Speaker 2: protest that was there llegenately to uphold morality and kindness.

84
00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:57,800
Speaker 2: But there was an article about it. I mean, there

85
00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:59,400
Speaker 2: are a bunch of articles about it. And someone made

86
00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,800
Speaker 2: a point in the La Times article. It's the president

87
00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,360
Speaker 2: of the People for the American Way, whose organization tracks

88
00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,400
Speaker 2: the activities of right wing political organizations. You know how

89
00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,840
Speaker 2: we've talked about how abortion became like a unifying way

90
00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,440
Speaker 2: to build coalition politically, even though it wasn't really a

91
00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,400
Speaker 2: Christian issue prior to the seventies.

92
00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:17,880
Speaker 3: Yes.

93
00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, So his theory is that this new wave of

94
00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,839
Speaker 2: anti LGBTQ sentiment and like trans panic, drag panic, gay

95
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,000
Speaker 2: panic is directly related to the fact that actually Roe

96
00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,480
Speaker 2: v Wade is now overturned. His theory this man was

97
00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,760
Speaker 2: that the same thing is happening now because ro v

98
00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,480
Speaker 2: Wade was overturned. They actually got the goal, so it's

99
00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,120
Speaker 2: not unifying anymore in the same way. So they need

100
00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,000
Speaker 2: something else to make people froth at the mouth and

101
00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,560
Speaker 2: like make them, you know, activated, so that they will

102
00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:48,520
Speaker 2: vote conservatively or whatever.

103
00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:49,840
Speaker 4: So I just thought that was a.

104
00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,960
Speaker 2: Really interesting sort of like broader view of what's happening,

105
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,880
Speaker 2: because I've been so confused. I've been like, why why

106
00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:57,480
Speaker 2: is there so much panic right now? Like where is

107
00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,680
Speaker 2: it coming from? I don't understand, Like we already won

108
00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,720
Speaker 2: marriage equality, it felt settled. Yeah, there's a long history

109
00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,400
Speaker 2: of things that people are fixating on that they never

110
00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,240
Speaker 2: cared about before, and it's interesting to see how much

111
00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,479
Speaker 2: they are panicked about it and angry about it. Like

112
00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,320
Speaker 2: it's one thing to be like, huh, that's something we

113
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,839
Speaker 2: should think more about. Huh, I'm not sure that's complicated,

114
00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,720
Speaker 2: And it's another thing to be like drag queens are groomers,

115
00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,760
Speaker 2: you know, like how do you go from A to B?

116
00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,080
Speaker 2: And I think it's a really interesting theory that there's

117
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,320
Speaker 2: actually like it's a political marketing strategy.

118
00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:30,679
Speaker 3: That's really interesting.

119
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,320
Speaker 2: So that's my coaeldiest thing. Anyway, shall we get into

120
00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:34,479
Speaker 2: it with Lindsay Williams.

121
00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:35,279
Speaker 3: Let's do it.

122
00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,040
Speaker 1: Trust Me is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

123
00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,880
Speaker 4: Most of you listening right now are probably multitasking.

124
00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:45,240
Speaker 1: Yep.

125
00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,600
Speaker 2: While you're listening to us talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising,

126
00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:50,000
Speaker 2: or maybe even grocery shopping.

127
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,440
Speaker 1: But if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle,

128
00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,839
Speaker 1: there's something else you can be doing right now getting

129
00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:56,880
Speaker 1: an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.

130
00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,280
Speaker 2: It's easy, and you could save money by doing it

131
00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:00,400
Speaker 2: right from your phone.

132
00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,960
Speaker 1: Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save nearly seven

133
00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,800
Speaker 1: hundred dollars on average, and auto customers qualify for an

134
00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,479
Speaker 1: average of seven discounts.

135
00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,280
Speaker 2: Discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner,

136
00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:14,280
Speaker 2: and more.

137
00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,160
Speaker 1: So, just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with

138
00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,120
Speaker 1: you twenty four to seven, three hundred and sixty five

139
00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:20,760
Speaker 1: days a year.

140
00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:22,200
Speaker 3: So You're protected no matter.

141
00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,120
Speaker 2: What multitask Right Now, quote your car insurance at Progressive

142
00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,280
Speaker 2: dot com to join the over twenty nine million.

143
00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:28,400
Speaker 4: Drivers who trust Progressive.

144
00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,040
Speaker 2: Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average twelve month

145
00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,560
Speaker 2: savings of six hundred ninety eight dollars by new customer

146
00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:36,960
Speaker 2: survey who saved with Progressive between June twenty twenty one

147
00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,880
Speaker 2: and May twenty twenty two. Potential savings will vary. Discounts

148
00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:51,080
Speaker 2: not available in all states and situations. Welcome Lindsay Williams

149
00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,279
Speaker 2: to trust me. Thank you for joining us, Thank you

150
00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,320
Speaker 2: for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

151
00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:56,360
Speaker 4: Excited to have you.

152
00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,320
Speaker 2: So you appear in this new documentary about the Dugger

153
00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,440
Speaker 2: family and the Institute in Basic Life Principles also known

154
00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,680
Speaker 2: as the IBLP documentaries called Shiny Happy People on Amazon

155
00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:08,200
Speaker 2: and Why Pray Tell?

156
00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,520
Speaker 4: Did you appear in that documentary? I actually chose to

157
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,000
Speaker 4: appear in this documentary because I felt that it was

158
00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,040
Speaker 4: time to speak truth to a lot of the abuses

159
00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,880
Speaker 4: and that were going on within the system itself, but

160
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,440
Speaker 4: also because I had my own personal experiences with these abuses,

161
00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,560
Speaker 4: and I had an opportunity at one point to join

162
00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 4: the lawsuit back in twenty thirteen, and I was too

163
00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,080
Speaker 4: fixated on trying to have a career and also scared.

164
00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,000
Speaker 4: I was very scared to go up and be involved

165
00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,400
Speaker 4: in that, and I didn't have the words at the time,

166
00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,720
Speaker 4: but I didn't want to retraumatize myself. I was very

167
00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:43,240
Speaker 4: scared of that.

168
00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,680
Speaker 2: So basically, you were a member of the Institute in

169
00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,520
Speaker 2: Basic Life Principles, which for those who haven't seen the

170
00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,080
Speaker 2: doc yet, we will be talking about sexual abuse that

171
00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,280
Speaker 2: occurred within that organization as well.

172
00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,480
Speaker 4: As a number of veryild abuse unhealthy. Yeah.

173
00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,720
Speaker 1: I just have to add, this is the closest ray

174
00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,360
Speaker 1: ledge and I've ever seen the one I grew up

175
00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:03,560
Speaker 1: in the two by toes.

176
00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,680
Speaker 3: It was really did you notice that?

177
00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:06,680
Speaker 4: Yeah? I did.

178
00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,320
Speaker 2: Actually, I feel like sometimes you'll you'll see the parallels,

179
00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,760
Speaker 2: but I do feel like this feels especially to me.

180
00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:14,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was really.

181
00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,240
Speaker 1: It was really cool for my psyche to see it

182
00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,720
Speaker 1: from a different lens and be like, I felt like

183
00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,400
Speaker 1: some of my trauma got processed a little bit.

184
00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,400
Speaker 3: Because I was like, well, that's fucked up. So yeah,

185
00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,240
Speaker 3: it's it's a really crazy story.

186
00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and for the record, I wasn't asking why did

187
00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,120
Speaker 2: you appear in the documentary?

188
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,200
Speaker 4: No, No, I didn't feel like you were. I don't

189
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:37,840
Speaker 4: feel like I met you know, terrifying.

190
00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, can you start off by telling us what

191
00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,480
Speaker 2: your family's life was like before joining this group.

192
00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:47,360
Speaker 4: I don't actually know that I can tell you that

193
00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,520
Speaker 4: much about before them joining. I was eight when they

194
00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,840
Speaker 4: got into Well, my parents were already attending seminars, the

195
00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:58,520
Speaker 4: basic and Advanced seminars with the within the IBLP, and

196
00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,480
Speaker 4: when I was eight, they chose to get into the

197
00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:06,400
Speaker 4: Advanced Training Institute homeschooling program that is underneath the umbrella.

198
00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,320
Speaker 4: If you will, we're going to need to know more

199
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,880
Speaker 4: about them for sure. Yeah, so they pulled us into

200
00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,840
Speaker 4: the homeschooling program, and that is pretty much my introduction.

201
00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:17,160
Speaker 4: It's almost where I feel like a lot of my

202
00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,199
Speaker 4: memories even start because it was so dramatic. I do

203
00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,040
Speaker 4: remember school, but I feel like it almost seems like

204
00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:29,719
Speaker 4: a compartmentalized part of my past past. Yeah, because the

205
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,800
Speaker 4: really deep stuff started to get so weird so quickly,

206
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,200
Speaker 4: Like at EATE, it was just all of yourself is

207
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,240
Speaker 4: getting removed from you, and it's traumatic.

208
00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,720
Speaker 1: I mean, just to throw out an example, You guys

209
00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,400
Speaker 1: weren't even allowed to have cabbage patch dolls because they

210
00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:45,880
Speaker 1: were from the devil.

211
00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,480
Speaker 4: Yes, they were imbibed by the devil. But my grandmother

212
00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,160
Speaker 4: actually gave all of us cousins cabbage patch dolls one Christmas,

213
00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,280
Speaker 4: and my parents very quickly took it away from me.

214
00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,520
Speaker 4: And my grandmother was pretty enraged about it, and she

215
00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,760
Speaker 4: found different doll that was the same size and sent

216
00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,079
Speaker 4: that to me, and I will never forget that because

217
00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,280
Speaker 4: she wanted to make doll clothes for all of us

218
00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,960
Speaker 4: girls so that we would have, you know, the same

219
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,800
Speaker 4: dollies and things like that. So it was, yeah, she

220
00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,640
Speaker 4: found the way, but it was all of our toys

221
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,679
Speaker 4: were removed, my little ponies, Rainbow Bright. I mean, if

222
00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,240
Speaker 4: you're aware of the book by phil Phillips called Turmoil

223
00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,840
Speaker 4: in the Toy Box, that is what Bill was basing

224
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:24,560
Speaker 4: it all off of.

225
00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,800
Speaker 2: Wow, I'm going to write that down because I want

226
00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:27,360
Speaker 2: to remember that.

227
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,240
Speaker 4: It's a hard book to read. And you realize that

228
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:34,880
Speaker 4: this man, phil Phillips, did not have any psychology degree,

229
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,040
Speaker 4: he didn't have any child training. I'm shocked whatsoever. Right,

230
00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,959
Speaker 4: he didn't have children, of course, but this was his

231
00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,600
Speaker 4: evangelical grift and it stuck.

232
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,720
Speaker 2: So it just seems like children were not allowed to exist,

233
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,040
Speaker 2: to have any kind of idem, we have any kind

234
00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:56,720
Speaker 2: of fun. That some of the training that is referred

235
00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:01,760
Speaker 2: to in the documentary, like blanket training, came from another

236
00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,400
Speaker 2: book called To Train Up a Child by Michael Pearl.

237
00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,080
Speaker 4: Do you were you familiar with this book or I've

238
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,280
Speaker 4: always been familiar with this book, yes, but because my

239
00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,040
Speaker 4: parents brought us in to all of this or we're

240
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,000
Speaker 4: I don't know, introduced to all of it when we weren't.

241
00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,200
Speaker 4: We weren't infants, so I didn't go through actual blanket training,

242
00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,200
Speaker 4: but have always been aware. I've always been aware of

243
00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:28,040
Speaker 4: how insidious it is. Even within it. It's you know,

244
00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,240
Speaker 4: trigger warning for people. This is is heavy. But basically

245
00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,360
Speaker 4: you take an infant, you can do it. They say

246
00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,439
Speaker 4: up to three three four weeks old, where you put

247
00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,080
Speaker 4: them on a blanket and if they move off that blanket,

248
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,760
Speaker 4: you either like flick their hand or slap them or

249
00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,640
Speaker 4: pinch them as a warning sign. Is it's like an

250
00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,079
Speaker 4: electric fence for a child, and.

251
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,280
Speaker 3: You put a toy that they want outside.

252
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,640
Speaker 4: Of the it progressively becomes that and you see can

253
00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,640
Speaker 4: you tempt them to move further outside of the blanket,

254
00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,559
Speaker 4: and if they try, then you pull them back. I mean,

255
00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:05,040
Speaker 4: it's horrible. It's your training an animal, not a human.

256
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,840
Speaker 4: It is it is so abusive to that individual human's

257
00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,720
Speaker 4: psyche and it starts from infancy.

258
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,199
Speaker 2: Like anything that I it basically would teach you anything

259
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,080
Speaker 2: that I desire, I must be punished for. If there's

260
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,640
Speaker 2: anything that I want that is not told to me

261
00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,120
Speaker 2: that I am supposed to want, then I am bad.

262
00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,360
Speaker 2: Like I cannot imagine how deeply ingrained that would be.

263
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,840
Speaker 1: Putting a little sweet toy that you just want to

264
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:31,920
Speaker 1: reach for by you and every time you do, you

265
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,040
Speaker 1: get pinched or spanked.

266
00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,000
Speaker 3: I mean, that is so cruel and so cruel. Who's

267
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,440
Speaker 3: the Michelle Duggar.

268
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,520
Speaker 1: She's talking about it, and she's like ting in the

269
00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,840
Speaker 1: sweetest voice, and I'll just tell them it's blanket time.

270
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,439
Speaker 3: And isn't it so exciting that it's blanket time?

271
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:52,319
Speaker 4: And it's it's manipulation. You're stopping your children from questioning,

272
00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:59,280
Speaker 4: from learning, from experiencing. You are their only filter by

273
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,280
Speaker 4: which they're able to do anything within this world.

274
00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,720
Speaker 2: And so well, first of all, to provide some context

275
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,640
Speaker 2: for listeners the Dugger family, which was the They were

276
00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,720
Speaker 2: the subject of reality TV shows about having an enormous family,

277
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:14,640
Speaker 2: and it was this like, I mean you I never

278
00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:14,960
Speaker 2: watched it?

279
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:15,520
Speaker 4: Did you watch it?

280
00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:15,920
Speaker 3: I didn't.

281
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,320
Speaker 4: That was a reality.

282
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,160
Speaker 2: Show that this documentary is now exposing Jim Bob Dugger

283
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,360
Speaker 2: and his wife Michelle Dugger for their connection to this

284
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:28,440
Speaker 2: larger religious organization IBLP. So like when we refer to

285
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,439
Speaker 2: Michelle Dugger, that's why we are talking about her, because

286
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,440
Speaker 2: the documentary is exposing the connection between this family on

287
00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,920
Speaker 2: TV and this larger religious organization.

288
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,760
Speaker 1: Right, So, yeah, how did it feel to see somebody

289
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:41,520
Speaker 1: who you're not even allowed to have a TV and

290
00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:42,760
Speaker 1: suddenly they're on the TV.

291
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,960
Speaker 4: I had been out of IBLP and ATI for years, okay,

292
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,840
Speaker 4: and some one of my friends was where kind of

293
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,400
Speaker 4: that I had a stifled upbringing, but not the details

294
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,040
Speaker 4: or what it was. And they're like, oh, have you

295
00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:57,839
Speaker 4: seen this like really large family and they all wear

296
00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,880
Speaker 4: skirts like you said you did. And I was like,

297
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,040
Speaker 4: oh really. And so I turned on the TV one

298
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,640
Speaker 4: day and I was like, oh no, literally what I

299
00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,000
Speaker 4: said in the documentary, No, no, no, no, no, I

300
00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,160
Speaker 4: have lived this. I knew instantly. I did not have

301
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:11,920
Speaker 4: to see a wisdom booklet. I did not have to

302
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,280
Speaker 4: hear it, Like I didn't have to see paraphernalia from IBLP.

303
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,760
Speaker 4: I knew instantly, the sound of their voice, the way

304
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,000
Speaker 4: the girls behaved, the way that the boys interacted with

305
00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,800
Speaker 4: the women. Nope, I was out. Even now, there's no

306
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:25,920
Speaker 4: like people will send me clips on TikTok and things

307
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:27,280
Speaker 4: like that and say, oh, hey, have you seen this,

308
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,960
Speaker 4: and if it's just a dugger clip, I'm like, I

309
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,040
Speaker 4: don't need to. M I don't need to.

310
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,960
Speaker 1: It's just such a cognitive dissonance not have a TV.

311
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,040
Speaker 1: But then to see them on TV, well, and that

312
00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:38,239
Speaker 1: was yeah.

313
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,960
Speaker 4: That's what I was like, how is this approved by Bill? Like,

314
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:44,800
Speaker 4: how what's going on here?

315
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:49,760
Speaker 2: Bill being Bill Gothard, who is the creator, the creator, right, yeah,

316
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,760
Speaker 2: he yeah, he's the creator, President Almighty of IBLP and

317
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 2: ATI and I and I really thought like, there's no

318
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,000
Speaker 2: way they could have done this without his approval, simply

319
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,560
Speaker 2: because he's also their authority in a way in that structure,

320
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:07,400
Speaker 2: and so they would want his approval.

321
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,480
Speaker 4: And I'm like, so he clearly gave it. And then

322
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,640
Speaker 4: I started realizing you know, I've been out of this

323
00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,120
Speaker 4: for a really long time. Things are shifting in the world,

324
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,360
Speaker 4: and this is now the way that you can evangelize

325
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,440
Speaker 4: through the television, because that's where the eyes are. The

326
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,640
Speaker 4: eyes used to be at seminars and everybody would want

327
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,080
Speaker 4: to come with the get help, you know, get yourself

328
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,520
Speaker 4: help seminars, and now those were diminishing. They were not

329
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,280
Speaker 4: selling out stadiums like he used to in the eighties

330
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,040
Speaker 4: and the nineties. The eyes are on television, right, and yes,

331
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,680
Speaker 4: we Christian ATI kids don't have TVs, but the rest

332
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,560
Speaker 4: of the world does, and that's what matters. They didn't

333
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,440
Speaker 4: need to talk to us, They needed to talk to

334
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,000
Speaker 4: the others to get them in. So let's rewind a

335
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,360
Speaker 4: little bit and go back into your experience. So what

336
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,800
Speaker 4: is ati ATI is the Advanced Training Institute. It is

337
00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:02,200
Speaker 4: a homeschooling program that is sort of like extracted from

338
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,760
Speaker 4: the teachings of IBLP. So it is it's heavily steeped

339
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 4: in all of the Institute and Basic Life Principles teachings

340
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,680
Speaker 4: that everybody could get at the Basic and Advanced seminar.

341
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,080
Speaker 4: It's just even further expanded because they tried to make

342
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:23,920
Speaker 4: it an educational program for pre k to twelve twelfth grade, right, and.

343
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,720
Speaker 1: Some of the assignments are like circle, which woman is

344
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:28,320
Speaker 1: wearing the sludy dress?

345
00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:28,920
Speaker 3: Yes?

346
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:34,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, so eye traps yeah, and like which hairstyle is appropriate?

347
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,760
Speaker 3: Like this was your education?

348
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:38,520
Speaker 4: Yes, visual judging.

349
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,320
Speaker 2: So basically, like the goal is to homeschool all of

350
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,400
Speaker 2: the children, to indoctrinate all of the children to have

351
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:54,320
Speaker 2: these extremely restricted, controlled ideologies and then also grow up

352
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,560
Speaker 2: to represent the group and get people into politics too.

353
00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,840
Speaker 4: Right, there's so much of it. It's the thing is,

354
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,359
Speaker 4: it's not that obvious. It's not It's not like when

355
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,680
Speaker 4: I got into ATI my parents enrolled us, they were like,

356
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,320
Speaker 4: you know what, someday you're going to be You could

357
00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:11,000
Speaker 4: be the next president, or you're going to be the

358
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,359
Speaker 4: wife of a president. It just it's a slow burning,

359
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,399
Speaker 4: like crock pot of like someday you're just going to

360
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,920
Speaker 4: be primed and ready. And I don't know that even

361
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,719
Speaker 4: our parents realize those things. They just knew that you

362
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,119
Speaker 4: were going to be such a firm, solid standard for

363
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,760
Speaker 4: God that great things would come to you and you

364
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,840
Speaker 4: would just get you know, kind of like the law

365
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,080
Speaker 4: of attraction. You know, you're going to attract the right things,

366
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,240
Speaker 4: and you're going to be led into places of position

367
00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,440
Speaker 4: and places of power so that your ideologies and your

368
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,359
Speaker 4: religious beliefs, like you're going to be able to proselytize

369
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,040
Speaker 4: to other people. Yeah, right, you know what I'm saying.

370
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,680
Speaker 4: So it's it's there isn't like I think sometimes when

371
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,080
Speaker 4: people think cult, they think there's this like insidious underbelly

372
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:59,120
Speaker 4: and everybody has a dastard plan, And it's not. It's

373
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,320
Speaker 4: it's they people really believe that they're living out a

374
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:07,000
Speaker 4: strong Christian faith. That is the fundamentalism. It is very

375
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,000
Speaker 4: controlled and very restricted, but the purpose of that is

376
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,119
Speaker 4: simply to give your best testimony of self that I

377
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,679
Speaker 4: am this pure, I am this restricted from everything that

378
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,240
Speaker 4: could impact me, and so that's why I'm a wonderful.

379
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,760
Speaker 1: The color of society, and that will help spread a

380
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:23,560
Speaker 1: better I can't be.

381
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,080
Speaker 4: Shaken, I can't be moved, And I'm going to help

382
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,879
Speaker 4: you in your moral compass, you know, as you go forward,

383
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:34,120
Speaker 4: because you don't know enough to have that moral compass,

384
00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:35,600
Speaker 4: and I'm going to give that to you.

385
00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,199
Speaker 2: I also think, you know, growing up in Mormonism, I

386
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,720
Speaker 2: remember thinking like I'm going to be famous and I'm

387
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,359
Speaker 2: going to represent my church to the world, you know,

388
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,800
Speaker 2: which I think is like, you know, Tom Cruise does

389
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,600
Speaker 2: that for scientology, brand and Flowers does that for Mormonism.

390
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:49,879
Speaker 4: You know.

391
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,119
Speaker 2: So I think that's an important like context and nuance

392
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,720
Speaker 2: that you're describing. These aren't necessarily like insidious like mister

393
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,800
Speaker 2: Burns plotting things so much as just like a natural result.

394
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,240
Speaker 1: Of Well, I think that the members are are not

395
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:11,840
Speaker 1: The members aren't are like yes, specifically planning world domination?

396
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,080
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, and because they see what's happening with the members,

397
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,359
Speaker 4: they see this fleet that's getting created, and why not

398
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,760
Speaker 4: tap into it because they're naive to how they can

399
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:25,720
Speaker 4: be so molded.

400
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,360
Speaker 1: Now, Oh, they're so susceptible to control.

401
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 4: I myself, I was so susceptible to that molding, to

402
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,840
Speaker 4: that grooming, to go to headquarters, to work with Bill,

403
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,480
Speaker 4: to be a part of like delegations to foreign countries.

404
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,679
Speaker 4: And I'm eighteen, nineteen years old, what do I know?

405
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, before I get to headquarters, I have what was

406
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:47,600
Speaker 1: a wisdom booklet.

407
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,280
Speaker 4: Wisdom booklets were our education. So you guys go to

408
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,159
Speaker 4: school and you have textbooks and you learn from your textbooks.

409
00:19:54,640 --> 00:20:00,120
Speaker 4: Wisdom booklets were our textbooks. They are They are not educational,

410
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:08,120
Speaker 4: academically valuable. It is very heavily weighted information to one side,

411
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,639
Speaker 4: and a lot of it is not accurate. And it

412
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 4: is not a linear education program either. First of all,

413
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 4: it's not education, but it's not linear in any way.

414
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,119
Speaker 4: So each booklet would take four to six weeks for

415
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,879
Speaker 4: family to get through, and if some parents were a

416
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,680
Speaker 4: little more mindful, then they would supplement it with other

417
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,280
Speaker 4: textbooks from other places like a Becker or Bob Jones

418
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,639
Speaker 4: and others. And if they weren't that mindful, then they

419
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,800
Speaker 4: would just use the wisdom booklet and that would kind

420
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 4: of be it. But they jump all over the place

421
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,920
Speaker 4: because they're based on the scriptures of Matthew five through seven.

422
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:45,800
Speaker 4: Oh my god, I feel like I'm giving you a

423
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 4: like a marketing flow here. Please, these wisdom booklets, they're

424
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:51,120
Speaker 4: not exciting.

425
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 2: But Matthew five through seven, so each verse or two

426
00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 2: verses was a wisdom booklet, and going into mountain.

427
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 4: He saw the multitude, et cetera. So so every verse

428
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 4: they're extracting science, medicine, law, history, you know, et cetera.

429
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 4: Et cetera.

430
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 3: There is no evolution and.

431
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 4: There's not like and you're extracting it from and going

432
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,880
Speaker 4: up into a mountain. Right, Wow, how well that makes

433
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 4: perfect and he saw the multitude. I get it.

434
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 2: The new mountain science isn't real. So let's learn about

435
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 2: eye diseases.

436
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 4: Wow, literally, that's my first wisdom. But then it every

437
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,640
Speaker 4: ati kid you ever talked to, ask them what myopia

438
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 4: and presbyopia is, and they will tell you because it's

439
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 4: just it's it's it's the first impact that we had.

440
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,480
Speaker 4: And then you so you're going from that like medical

441
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,880
Speaker 4: resource into I don't know what the next one might be.

442
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 4: It could be on like knee caps or skin disease.

443
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 2: And was there any basis to that stuff or was

444
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:52,880
Speaker 2: it like made up medicine stuff too?

445
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:57,440
Speaker 4: Well, they had scholars and specialists she's using air quotes

446
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 4: quote that were godly that were bringing their godly bents

447
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 4: to this information. And they are all available. All of

448
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 4: these wisdom booklets are available online. Someone some blessed so

449
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 4: all went out there and scanned all of these things

450
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,640
Speaker 4: in So if you guys want to really deep dive

451
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 4: in it, I mean, you know, find a therapist first.

452
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 4: But you want to deep dive into, like seeing what

453
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 4: my education was. It's not an education, it's in doctrination,

454
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,639
Speaker 4: and it keeps you very confined into a world that

455
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,679
Speaker 4: leaves you so outside of the rest of the world.

456
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 4: I knew from a super early age, even with those

457
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 4: three years of schooling in public school, when I started

458
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 4: getting into this, I realized that I was going to

459
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 4: be less than everyone I knew, Like I didn't even

460
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 4: understand it truly, but I knew that I didn't know

461
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 4: what everybody else did. And therefore I felt super less

462
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 4: then and insecure.

463
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 2: As in outsiders or as in people every day everybody

464
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 2: everyone getting in an education.

465
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, and sometimes even if I went to another ati

466
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 4: family's house and I saw that they had textbooks or

467
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 4: I heard that their family got a tutor for math

468
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 4: or science, I'm like, oh, what is what's hungry to learn? Yeah,

469
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 4: you're hungry. But then it gets it literally gets beat

470
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 4: out of you that you're like you just especially as

471
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 4: a female. I mean I Chad kind of mentioned it

472
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 4: in the documentary where where someone and that was me

473
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 4: was told that, you know, because I couldn't really seem

474
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 4: to handle fractions or learn them. It was Okay, I

475
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 4: didn't need to learn math anymore because I knew how

476
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 4: to cook and sell for babes. Yeah yeah, yeah, enough

477
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 4: for babs. That's insane, Like why need why need more?

478
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 4: Because my structure was you're going to get married, you're

479
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 4: going to have children, and you're going to come and

480
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 4: so and then you're going to homeschool them in the

481
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 4: material you already know. You already know the Wisdom booklets.

482
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 4: So why do you really need anything extra? I want

483
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 4: to hear a little bit more.

484
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 2: About the specifics of everyday life if you are home.

485
00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 2: So you were homeschooled your whole schooling from the age

486
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 2: of eight basically, and.

487
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 4: Was there at what age do you graduate?

488
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 3: Well?

489
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 4: It depends on again the families, And I know that

490
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 4: it's it's frustrating sometimes because it's so complex, and I've

491
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 4: always wondered, is that was that on purpose or was

492
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 4: it just an oversight on Bill Gotthard's part as a

493
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 4: leader to not give more oversight or direction because most

494
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 4: of it was you graduate when you get married if

495
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 4: you're female.

496
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 3: Oh wow, okay, oh my god.

497
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no real like there's not a graduation. Oh

498
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 4: I made twelfth grade.

499
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 3: And so they're just reusing the booklets.

500
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 2: There's fifty four, there's fifty four, there's fifty four bucks.

501
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 2: But if you're going through four.

502
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 4: To six weeks, you know, a month or sorry, if

503
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 4: you're going through four to six weeks, you're only getting

504
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 4: through like what six to eight books a year?

505
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so you have I'm saying, so the math

506
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 2: on that. I don't know how to math. I only

507
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 2: know how to cook.

508
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 3: And so sorry, ladies, I don't either, and I.

509
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 4: Don't have an excuse. Let's say let's say six seven years,

510
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 4: you know, it's just whatever. But like at that point,

511
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 4: thanks guys, you end up restarting it. You start over.

512
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 2: Wow, and the kind So what is the like basic uh?

513
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 2: What is your basic worldview in like at like high

514
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 2: school age? What do you think your life is going

515
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 2: to be? What do you think your purpose is? I

516
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 2: mean it's very clear my purpose. Well, if you're not married,

517
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 2: your purpose is to have a ministry, and you're not

518
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 2: really sure what that is supposed to be. But as

519
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: a female, it's probably I don't know, babysitting or children's

520
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 2: churches at Sunday Church, or it's almost always involving children

521
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 2: or it's involving baking for people or musical.

522
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 4: Training of some kind. Like it's very gender specific.

523
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 1: Would this come into the like spiritual gifts part of

524
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: sort of men are profits and women are mercy.

525
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 3: Mercy? Okay, so like you're doing I.

526
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: Mean, I guess it's not that clear cut. Maybe some

527
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: women we're also prophets. I don't know, but like you're

528
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: doing the merciful labor of taking care of people, and.

529
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 4: And you're as a woman, as a as a female,

530
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 4: you're also you're you're kind of as a woman, you're

531
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 4: having to fall under your father's authority on top of

532
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 4: all of this, Like, oh, you have a ministry, but

533
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 4: only if your dad approves it. What is the umbrella

534
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 4: of authority? The umbrella of authority truly is just a

535
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 4: control system. In my opinions, it is that God is

536
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 4: the larger umbrella, and he protects his children, his Christian children,

537
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 4: not everybody, his Christian children.

538
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 3: So we don't have an I'm unprotected.

539
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 4: And if you do, like you have an umbrella in

540
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 4: that you have a father, and so your father is

541
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 4: your umbrella right now. But if your father doesn't have

542
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 4: God over him, then he's getting pelted by Satan's you know,

543
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 4: darts and rain, and if he's not a Christian, then

544
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 4: there's holes in his authority umbrella and so then Satan's

545
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 4: little drops can get onto you and then other problems ensue.

546
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 4: I mean, if you're a child, that's terrifying. Yeah. Like

547
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 4: I always thought of it as like acid rain and

548
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 4: that if I get hit, like my skin would start

549
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 4: to melt. And I didn't even know what acid rain

550
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 4: was at the time. I just that's how I thought.

551
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 3: God, Dad, Dad, mother.

552
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 4: Children don't really have umbrellas, but they do. They're like

553
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 4: little umbrellas because it's just for you only and your

554
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 4: your umbrella doesn't extend everybody else, unless you're like the

555
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 4: Dugger kids, where you have a buddy system and you're

556
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 4: now taking care of your parentification is for another child,

557
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 4: and so then you have a bit of like a

558
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 4: mini authority over them.

559
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 2: And where does Bill factor in? Bill is another mouthpiece.

560
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 2: I guess some some families would make him an authority. Oh,

561
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: like they see him as an authority, oh god father,

562
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think so maybe he would position himself

563
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 2: that way.

564
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and we'll talk about that later with headquarters. But

565
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 4: he definitely positions himself, especially with women that like I

566
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 4: can be your father. You know, it's it's ridiculous. But

567
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 4: but that umbrella, again, when you learn it from a

568
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 4: very young age, is that high control. And you just

569
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 4: you simply know the word authority is synonymous with the umbrella,

570
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 4: and you instantly will think authority, umbrella, stay under it,

571
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 4: and if I go out from it, I'm out from

572
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 4: the authority that God, the authority structure God has set up.

573
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 4: Even if that authority your father or pastor even if

574
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 4: they are not doing good things, if you still if

575
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 4: they're they are doing bad things and you stay there,

576
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 4: God is testing you. But if you go out from

577
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 4: from it, well, now you're just in the acid rain

578
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 4: and Satan's just going to have a heyday. So stay

579
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 4: there and just pray a lot harder that that person

580
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 4: will heal their authority authoritative umbrella with holes in it,

581
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 4: and just endure for the Lord. Yeah.

582
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: I even had somebody then the docs say like I

583
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: felt myself starting to get jealous of women who were

584
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: getting sexually abused because it meant.

585
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 3: That their umbrella was teaching them more.

586
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 4: You would receive more blessings.

587
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 3: I guess you would receive more blessings. That's so wild.

588
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 4: I really want to get into that stuff.

589
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 2: But yes, in a minute, because yeah, that's it's crazy.

590
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 4: So boys, what about boys? Where did they follow? Boys?

591
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,479
Speaker 4: I just wished I was one. Let me tell you,

592
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 4: you have no idea, because they got to wear pants,

593
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 4: they got to go and do the fun things.

594
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 2: I was a kid who wanted to be active. Well,

595
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: first of all, you're just you're stifled.

596
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 4: You're in a cage, and at some point you just

597
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 4: feel like it's a gilded cage. But they got to

598
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 4: go and do all the things. They got to play

599
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 4: in the yard, they got to play sports. They you know,

600
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 4: they they're just a totally different thing. They get to

601
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,719
Speaker 4: apprenticeship with other fathers in the church or whatnot to

602
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 4: learn new skill sets, and you know, it's just they

603
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 4: get to get sweaty and dirty, and you know, I.

604
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: Just it's probably wrong, but every single one of them

605
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: in the documentary I saw, I just wanted to punch straight.

606
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: Well, I will say there the adult man, there was

607
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: a feuchmies.

608
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 4: I'm just here are and and personality wise, like you

609
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 4: have those right, the narcissists, Yes, egotistical meetings.

610
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm told on top of it, you're the

611
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: closest thing to God, and like, yeah, and you're the authority.

612
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a it's got a foster level of

613
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 2: narcissism when you're just being told your whole life that

614
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: you are superior to all of the girls.

615
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 4: Megan, were you jealous of boys and you're.

616
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 3: Oh, my god, so jealous. I'm looking at for the verse.

617
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 3: So so I would be jealous of you when I

618
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 3: was little, because our religion was you had to be in.

619
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: The world, not of the world. So being homeschooled was

620
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: my dream. I wanted to stay home with my prairie

621
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: dress and my hair and all of that stuff.

622
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 3: But I had to go to school looking like that.

623
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 4: Was in the world.

624
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,959
Speaker 1: I was in the world, but not of it. So

625
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: I would get to tell people you're going to hell.

626
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: Sorry to tell you, but I was so jealous of

627
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: I didn't have any brothers or sisters or kids in

628
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: my town, but I was so jealous of the guys

629
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: who would get to go to school and just.

630
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 4: Look like me. Yeah, and beings.

631
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 3: I couldn't believe it, and my dad.

632
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: And I would scream at each other before breakfast every

633
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: day where I was like, you're going to work looking

634
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: like a human, I look like a fucking American girl doll.

635
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 3: Like I could say the word, but you know what

636
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 3: I mean. It was so unfair.

637
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 4: Yeah right, yeah, love so hate. But I also, I

638
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 4: do want to say, as far as the men, though,

639
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 4: it wasn't all the guys that were like like, it

640
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 4: didn't It didn't make every single person a monstrosity, but

641
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 4: it did embolden those that were pre disposed to that

642
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 4: behavior system. They were able to thrive within it. But

643
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 4: they're like my husband was raised in as well, and

644
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 4: he's the most genteel, supportive, loving human being on the planet,

645
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 4: but he was also able to see the toxicity very

646
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 4: early on. I find that to be true.

647
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: I mean, of course, in Mormonism and many Mormon offshoot groups,

648
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: there are the men who will be like, I'm going

649
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,719
Speaker 2: to take advantage of my position of authority, and then

650
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 2: they are normal guys who are like, don't be creepy.

651
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, my dad is one of them, where I'm just like,

652
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: you're one of the best little people, but you're caught

653
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: up in a religion that your parents taught you.

654
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 3: So it's confusing, you know, it's really confusing.

655
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's not their fault that their lead that

656
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: they were, that they're in a religion that tells them

657
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 2: they're superior, right exactly exactly.

658
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 4: I'm not going to be a lot for men who

659
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 4: also have like anxiety disorders and you know, social anxiety

660
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 4: and things like that, Like now you have to be

661
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 4: the moon and you have to control your family, and

662
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 4: it's like, but I don't. I don't want to be

663
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 4: in that space, right, you know. So then what do

664
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 4: you do if you're a more meek man, and which

665
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 4: is totally fine. I love meet men, you know, they're

666
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 4: sweet and bread wonderful souls on this planet. Yea yeah.

667
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: And then so so all of your days are just

668
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 2: spent in the house, like just learning at home and

669
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 2: just staying and like going to church.

670
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 4: Is that the whole It depends on each family, you know.

671
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 4: I mean sometimes it would be super jelly of the

672
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 4: ones that were going to like all these events or

673
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 4: they were going to like field trips and getting to

674
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 4: go to well yeah too. But you know, I will

675
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 4: hand it to my parents that they did give us

676
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 4: a lot of opportunities to do those type of things,

677
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 4: like you know, go to. I don't know, of course,

678
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 4: now my mind is completely empty. But we would go

679
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 4: to different museums and things like that, but even that

680
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 4: was very controlled.

681
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: You know.

682
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 4: It's like, oh, well you can read that sign over there,

683
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 4: but that's not creationism, like.

684
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 3: Dinosaur bones were put there to us. Yeah, this evolution

685
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 3: is not real.

686
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: So like at a museum, you're looking at specific.

687
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 4: Through your filter, through your filter of we're also in

688
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 4: a museum built by humanistic people, so they probably don't

689
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 4: even really know the truth themselves. They've been linked to.

690
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 4: But as on a daily I mean, most of us

691
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 4: are waking up very early, earlier than school children. We

692
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 4: almost always had music playing that our parents would put

693
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 4: on to gently wake us up or terrify us and

694
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 4: wake us up, like like like marches or just like

695
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:39,760
Speaker 4: marches or really fantastically exciting piano music or symphonic music.

696
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 4: And you're just like, oh my gosh, Erry, I literally

697
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 4: yeah yeah. And you're a child. And again, if you

698
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 4: are a child with any type of neurodivergent issues and stuff,

699
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 4: this is too much, you know. And then you go

700
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 4: in and we have a wisdom search. All the whole

701
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 4: family gets together. If you were in my family. You

702
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 4: had to be fully dressed for the day. And I

703
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 4: don't mean just like, oh, I'm kind of in my

704
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 4: like she closed because I'm at home. We were dressed

705
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,479
Speaker 4: like we were going to go to Sunday night church.

706
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 4: How many kids for me? Three myself and two brothers managed?

707
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 4: But yeah, yeah, they got lucky. They're just in their pants. Yeah,

708
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 4: they're in the pants. But but we call it church clothes.

709
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 4: You know, they weren't wearing you know, sloppy, sloppy, comfortable sweatpants.

710
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 4: You know, they were in their khakis and their nice

711
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 4: little dress shirts. And we would do the wisdom search

712
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 4: with Father leading and read the Bible and have to

713
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 4: come up with a rama, which is a word of

714
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 4: from God that inspires you and you meditate on that

715
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 4: all day long. And if you're a child, you're reading

716
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 4: like five Psalms and one proverb that was kind of

717
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 4: like the standard go to. So five Psalms and one

718
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 4: proverb that is a lot of reading. But you have

719
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 4: to find a verse in there somewhere. And I always

720
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 4: think it's funny with children. Did our parents really think

721
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 4: that this was genuine? Oh no, Daddy, this really spoke

722
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 4: to me. This verse, it's just the Lord is here,

723
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 4: you know, You're just like, I just want to get

724
00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 4: this over with so I can have breakfast and then

725
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 4: maybe try to sneak into the bathroom and sit on

726
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 4: the toilet with my eyes closed for five minutes because

727
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 4: I'm tired. And yeah, and just like kind of here

728
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,439
Speaker 4: comes the rest of the day, and then it's into

729
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 4: the Wisdom booklets, like you have your breakfast, Dad goes

730
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 4: to work, Wisdom booklet time, and it's the whole morning

731
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 4: for us would be Wisdom booklets. Some people would flip

732
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 4: it into the afternoon. It just all depended on the

733
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 4: mother and her choices. But we would do Wisdom booklet

734
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 4: studies for the morning, and then in the afternoon we

735
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 4: would get like the extended textbook stuff or any like

736
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,839
Speaker 4: homework things that she would come up with, because they

737
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 4: have a parent guide that goes with each Wisdom booklet,

738
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 4: so there is guidance for the parents on how to

739
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 4: give you like different activities that go along with what

740
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 4: we're learning in those different categories.

741
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 2: How this thing I never really understand about some of

742
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 2: these types of religious homeschooling.

743
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 4: Is like how is it legal? Like doesn't there have

744
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 4: to be some kind of like school depends on the

745
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 4: state you're in, right, yep, with oh many. My dad

746
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 4: was in the military, so we moved around a lot,

747
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 4: which I think is how I started realizing, like, wow,

748
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 4: some are a little scary. When we were living in Illinois,

749
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 4: we had to take SATs because the state cares about

750
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 4: children's education, and my brothers and I were pretty terrified.

751
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 4: I was the oldest, so I was like, I know

752
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 4: how much I don't like, I'm.

753
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 3: Aware this is the answer.

754
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 4: Oh wait, I can't say that. It's circles that I

755
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 4: have to fill in, and I'm like, what are these things?

756
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 3: What is this long equation?

757
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 4: I must answer, I don't know. What did you do?

758
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 4: I just did it? You know, Like again, this is

759
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 4: the survival mode that you just default to very early

760
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 4: on in your life. Is that you just everything's going

761
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 4: to come at you and you'll never be prepared, so

762
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 4: you just just dive in. But that's where my anxiety.

763
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 4: I stuffed that anxiety down for decades, and in the

764
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 4: past five years it started to just like my body

765
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 4: was like, girl, I've had enough. Yeah, you know, you're

766
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 4: gonna shake and tremble for the rest of your life.

767
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 4: Because I can't do this anymore. But even then, when

768
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 4: it came back, I don't remember the scores, but I

769
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 4: remember that my parents were like, well, this doesn't really

770
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 4: mean a lot, blah blah blah, you know, just move along.

771
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 4: But they had they had teachers in our church administer

772
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 4: it to us because they didn't want us to go

773
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 4: to the public school and take it with the public

774
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 4: school children.

775
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

776
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 4: So I remember being at a card table with my

777
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 4: brother and we just sat there and did it with

778
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 4: the oversight of this Christian family, just like eight. I

779
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 4: mean I was trying. Yeah, like I'm trying. I'm like, brain,

780
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 4: you can do this. I mean, to be.

781
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: Fair, I was pretty bad at it too, and I

782
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: was in a normal school, so I don't feel too bad.

783
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: I didn't get like an award for my English scores

784
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: being perfect, and then my master scores were like you

785
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 1: are a bony the idiot, like you need help? Were

786
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: just one more sense of your home life, like sure

787
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 1: were you punished during like.

788
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 4: With those methods?

789
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so like the rod yell us.

790
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 4: Yes, well it's I will say, it's not something I'm

791
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 4: extremely comfortable talking about, sure, but it is something that

792
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 4: I think needs to continue to be talked about. In

793
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 4: the documentary. One of the amazing things that our editors

794
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 4: did and the producers is they created a collective story.

795
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 4: And so as you're watching, I think people like, oh,

796
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 4: that's only what happened to Lindsay, that's only what happened

797
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 4: to Chad or Heather or whatnot. That story is collective

798
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 4: of all of our experiences, and so yes, I'm sure

799
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 4: every single one of us have been disciplined in those ways,

800
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 4: whether it was minor or extreme. For me, it was

801
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 4: extreme and completely inappropriate, and it went on far too long.

802
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 4: I was into my mid teens before that subsided, and

803
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 4: my brother's the same.

804
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 2: And we are talking about physical punishments for context, which

805
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 2: is probably the corporal punishment. I'm trying to remember some

806
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 2: of the specifics in the documentary about the teachings around

807
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 2: corporal punishment are very scary. Do you guys remember any

808
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 2: of the specific moment It's rough, It's very difficult. Yeah.

809
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 1: I mean they'd take a kid up and practice spanking him, Yeah,

810
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: which was insane.

811
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 4: Then then was laughing. I had never seen that footage,

812
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 4: and I have seen everything like multiple times that IBLP

813
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 4: and eh I have put out and I was not

814
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 4: even I mean, we don't know what's in the documentary

815
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 4: before it comes out. We saw it as you all did.

816
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 4: And when that scene came out, I had a fifteen

817
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 4: minute panic attack. I had to stop the documentary. I

818
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 4: left the room and just I could not breathe, and

819
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 4: I was like, how, how, how and why was everybody laughing?

820
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 4: And I knew, I knew before it happened that that insidiously, horrible,

821
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 4: abusive man was going to ask that young boy to

822
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 4: give him a hug to restore the relationship. Ah, it

823
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 4: is so manipulative and disgusting. And the parents are taught

824
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 4: this that you need to repair the broken relationship, But

825
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 4: you're the one that broke it, right, and now you

826
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 4: were demanding a victim of your behavior and abuse. You

827
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 4: were demanding them to hug you and demand them to

828
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 4: restore what you destroyed. Right. It's unconscionable and it happens

829
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 4: daily in these homes. Oh this I cannot imagine the

830
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:26,720
Speaker 4: level of like just self blame and shame, the shame,

831
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 4: the fear. I mean, I have been afraid and ashamed

832
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 4: my entire life.

833
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, the laughing, Like when when during our meetings how

834
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: I grew up, you know, I think of it. It's

835
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 1: like six months old, that's starting to be you need

836
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: to sit still. If you don't, you get taken out

837
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: and you get your spanking right. And I was telling Lila,

838
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 1: I think I said this on the podcast before. When

839
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 1: we would play meeting with each other, we'd take our

840
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,320
Speaker 1: dolls out and just spank the shit out of them.

841
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 3: You know, which is kind of sad.

842
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: But when somebody would take the kid out and you'd

843
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: hear the wap wop wo, like all the adults to

844
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 1: kind of look at each other and like smile and

845
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: not like, oh, we hate it, but it has to

846
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 1: be done like that.

847
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 4: It's conditioning. They're conditioning, and they're taught this to avoid

848
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:18,240
Speaker 4: it's to avoid future catastrophe of your children. Exactly, let's

849
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 4: do this preemptively so that you will be the best human.

850
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 4: Exactly when you go into the world, you're not going

851
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 4: to rebel. You're not going to wear eye traps, you're

852
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 4: not going to say bad words. You're going to say

853
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 4: you're you're sure right now?

854
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: Maybe okay, okay, yeah, so they're yeah.

855
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,760
Speaker 4: They're they're I mean, rebellion could be the rock music.

856
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 4: It could be your attitude. You're just just not saying

857
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 4: yes sir, no sir, yes, ma'am, no, ma'am and being

858
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 4: respectful at all times and available with a joyful spirit,

859
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 4: which comes into play later on in other conversations. But

860
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 4: as a child, this is literally getting beat into you,

861
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 4: right that you have to always be joyful regardless of

862
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 4: any situation and circumstance, and if you're not, and you

863
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,919
Speaker 4: have any even just like a I'm a stubborn resistant girl,

864
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 4: I'm a Taurus, y'all. Like it was. It like even

865
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 4: just me feeling resistance and rigidness about something would also

866
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 4: falter into my conversation or how I would respond to

867
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 4: my parents, and even if it was a mail, you know,

868
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, what did you say? Yep, go prepare for discipline.

869
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

870
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: I was also on the spectrum a little bit and

871
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: very stubborn and would only wear one outfit and would

872
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: only eat one thing of food, and so the leaders

873
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 1: were like, just don't feed her, and my parents were like,

874
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 1: we've tried it a couple of days, it's not working,

875
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: Like she's not gonna do it, and I just wouldn't

876
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: and like I don't know.

877
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 3: I was very suburn.

878
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 4: Wow, I was not you got to where I tried

879
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,240
Speaker 4: was obedient. That was very obedient. And I hated feeling

880
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 4: like I was in trouble. Oh same, I didn't.

881
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 3: Like it, but I just had to. I don't know,

882
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 3: I have a rebellious spirit.

883
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're willful little babies. Yeah, but but even if

884
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 4: you were a very good child, there.

885
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 2: Was there's always never because it's not about that actually

886
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,479
Speaker 2: at all. There's no like actual standard that like makes

887
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 2: sense and if you meet it, you're good. Like it's

888
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 2: about teaching obedience and control. So there's always going to

889
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 2: be a moving goalpost. Yeah, moving goalpost, goal post.

890
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: Oh you're wearing a really long skirt, but it's not

891
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 1: the right really long skirts.

892
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah blah blah.

893
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 4: And we wonder why we have anxiety because we don't

894
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 4: we I am someone who needs information twenty four to seven.

895
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 4: I'm hyper aware. I'm a catastrophizer. And why wouldn't I be? Yeah? Why,

896
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 4: Like I learned that nothing was stable, right, I had

897
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 4: zero security, and I had zero parenting or anyone that

898
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 4: I could go to for safety.

899
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 1: I was just going to add that this was a

900
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: really hell based religion, correct, Like yeah, I mean for

901
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: somebody saying it wasn't it was.

902
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,439
Speaker 4: It was like I'm physically going to Bork.

903
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 3: I could physically.

904
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 4: Here's the thing too, Like you have to also understand, sorry,

905
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 4: that was very condescending. I didn't mean it that way.

906
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 4: We have to understand, yeah, we do. It's it's hard

907
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 4: to define sometimes because again I personally don't see that.

908
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 4: It was like you'll all burn in Hell all the

909
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 4: time kind of cult or or conversation. But it was prevalent.

910
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 4: But I think that again, if you were different a

911
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 4: certain type of personality, you're going to hook into certain things.

912
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 4: I was, you know, I was afraid of dying. I

913
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 4: wasn't quite afraid of hell. I was afraid at eight

914
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 4: or nine year years old. I was afraid of death

915
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 4: so badly. And it's just because they always talked about it, right,

916
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 4: and like if I die and I'm not a Christian,

917
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 4: well then what I won't see my family again? The

918
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 4: burning part wasn't really something that hit me a little jealous,

919
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 4: like no, no, but like it did I really want

920
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 4: to see I don't think I you know what I'm saying,

921
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 4: Like maybe I didn't need to see them again, but

922
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 4: also what what? But then I hear others experiences where

923
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 4: the like I was having nightmares of frying up every night,

924
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 4: and I was like, oh my gosh, Like we all

925
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 4: had our own tortures by how we perceived the information

926
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 4: that was being thrown at us, right, right, So so

927
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 4: you're gonna have other other kids and adults now that

928
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 4: are going to tell you other things that we wouldn't

929
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 4: have perceived at this point because that's how it was

930
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 4: fed to them or how they took it in.

931
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 2: That's maybe it was the theme of their particular family,

932
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 2: right right.

933
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: It's like how every kid grows up with a different

934
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: story of their upbringing. Yeah, our mom was like this,

935
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: No she wasn't, And like everybody's taking different stuff.

936
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 4: What was your favorite popsicle? You know, like you you

937
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 4: have things that are just more more. I don't know

938
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 4: that you just taken in a very different way. But

939
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 4: I'm not saying that it wasn't a hell fire cult

940
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 4: or a belief system, but I don't remember that being

941
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 4: just like the everything, but it was about like Satan

942
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 4: was going Satan was always coming for you.

943
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and your strongholds if you were bitter or angry,

944
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 2: then you've given like on your chessboard, you've given like

945
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 2: a castle to Satan now and and so now he

946
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 2: can kind of like permeate through your chessboard of experience.

947
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 4: Any human emotion. Satan's gonna get you.

948
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want you to remember what you were going

949
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:37,919
Speaker 3: to say.

950
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 1: But also like like it seemed like there was some

951
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,240
Speaker 1: belief in demons, like I remember he would the leader

952
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: got there, yep. Bill. I remember Bill would like come

953
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: and like get them out of people's houses, like demons

954
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: were a thing.

955
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 4: I don't really remember him too much doing that, but

956
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 4: at headquarters he actually did cleanse the home that I

957
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 4: was a house mom in one time, wow, because we

958
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 4: were having some issues with some of the students and

959
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 4: the what do you yeah, what do you know? So

960
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 4: you like, can you come and pray and cleanse the house?

961
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 4: But I don't I don't know if he was like

962
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 4: flying around the country. I don't recall him flying around

963
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 4: the country and like popping in.

964
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, just in the documentary was like I remember again

965
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 3: to my house.

966
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 4: And it's possible, Yeah, if he was in if he

967
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 4: was in town for a seminar or whatnot, but I

968
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 4: would say that it was yeah, let me come over. Yeah,

969
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 4: just for every house, because apparently I'm more of God

970
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 4: than you could be. But it was a fear based cult.

971
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 2: Someone commented in the documentary about seeing the duggers and

972
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 2: seeing how perfectly well behaved the children are and that

973
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 2: being such a red flag because they knew to your point,

974
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 2: they knew that it had been They're not children, aren't

975
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 2: just naturally that way, Like how do they get that?

976
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 4: They play, they run, they're rowdy, they make mistakes, they're messy,

977
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 4: they're exploring, they're they're asking questions, they're making mistakes. This

978
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 4: is how we become well rounded humans on this planet.

979
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 4: And when you take all of that away from them,

980
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 4: they're perfectly still. Yeah, because they're just living in fear

981
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 4: all time. They don't know how to they don't know

982
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 4: how to do anything. They are in a trauma response,

983
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 4: but they have only limited trauma responses too. They can't

984
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 4: fight or flight. They have to freeze them.

985
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 2: Fun right, right, So I want to talk about the

986
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 2: PowerPoint presentation that is in the doc about why God

987
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: allows sexual abuse. This is a quote he said, if

988
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 2: if he isn't, God allows our physical to be damaged,

989
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: he just increases the spiritual power. That's a principle through scripture.

990
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,839
Speaker 2: And then on the PowerPoint presentation it says like most

991
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,760
Speaker 2: important spirit and least important body.

992
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 4: So basically like, if you physically are.

993
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 2: Damaged, harmed, attacked, assaulted, that makes you spiritually more powerful.

994
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 4: According to Big Authord, so can you. But I don't

995
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 4: think any psychologists have ever validate that. No, definitely not.

996
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 2: But the fact that that is just such an insane

997
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 2: thing to teach, because there were like, do you want

998
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 2: to make the point that you were saying earlier actually.

999
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 1: That some women a one woman in the documentary was

1000
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: saying she was jealous of women who were sexually abused

1001
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: because it meant that they had more spiritual power.

1002
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 4: Yes, I've always been aware of this teaching. It never

1003
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 4: sat with me, but I never I never dissected it,

1004
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:23,720
Speaker 4: you know. I was just like, I just feel icky

1005
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:28,240
Speaker 4: with that. It's weird. But also what sex? What is sex?

1006
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 4: Because you don't know what it is. But when I

1007
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 4: read Heather Heath's book Lovingly Abused, she is one of

1008
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 4: the survivors that was on the documentary. In her I

1009
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 4: read her book last year and she said that she

1010
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 4: had prayed that God would allow her to be sexually

1011
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,359
Speaker 4: abused so that she could have more blessings from God.

1012
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 4: Oh my God, And when I read that I love you, Heather,

1013
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 4: I threw your book across the room. Oh my gosh.

1014
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 4: I was so enraged because I didn't have that depth

1015
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 4: of thought but she did. How insidiously horrific that you

1016
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 4: are praying for abuse so that God can bless you.

1017
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,919
Speaker 4: And then you think about these wives and these young

1018
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 4: women who are getting into abusive relationships believing that they

1019
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 4: are being more blessed because they are being abused.

1020
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 3: And with the.

1021
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: Purity culture, you can't even hold hands or kiss or

1022
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: anything until you get married. So at eighteen people are like,

1023
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: let's fucking do this shit.

1024
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 3: And then a eighteen year old.

1025
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 2: Girl is with a guy who go like, rabbits do

1026
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 2: it all the time. You don't even know this is

1027
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 2: your introduction to intimacy. Did you know anything about sex

1028
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 2: only through? Oh?

1029
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 4: What? The same of the book intended only through the

1030
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,479
Speaker 4: book intended for pleasure? Oh and it is a Chris book.

1031
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 4: Obviously it has a few illustrations. They're not great. It's informative,

1032
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 4: But when you know nothing, I found it to be

1033
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 4: very arresting. I was just like, I don't understand this,

1034
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 4: Like I would have preferred to have had a human

1035
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 4: talk to me. And I was twenty one. I was

1036
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 4: twenty actually I was twenty two when I got married,

1037
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 4: and that was my introduction to all of this, And

1038
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 4: it took me months to be able to actually have

1039
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,240
Speaker 4: interaction with my husband after we were married.

1040
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 3: You're twenty two when.

1041
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 4: You read that book?

1042
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 3: Yes, wow, until twenty two.

1043
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 4: No, No, I just when I was thirteen, going into womanhood,

1044
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 4: I was shown an illustration of a male and a

1045
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 4: female and the pictures were taken. You know, it was

1046
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 4: like not pictures, but the illustrations were shown to me.

1047
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 4: A very very very very brief overview was given to

1048
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 4: me of like this happens, and this happens, and then baby,

1049
00:52:57,239 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 4: and then now you're a woman, and this is what

1050
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,720
Speaker 4: happens to you. And then the those illustrations were removed

1051
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 4: and I didn't come back to them ever. Yeah.

1052
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 2: There's a video of Michelle Dugger in The Dog describing

1053
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:13,760
Speaker 2: wearing a short skirt as defrauding because it was stirring

1054
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 2: up desires in someone that cannot be righteously fulfilled.

1055
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 3: So it is it means that she's asking to be raped.

1056
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 4: Yes, And also I wish I could make it make

1057
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 4: sense you guys, I really do, because I just women

1058
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 4: are simply lust toys. Yes, that's all. We are two

1059
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 4: men in this system. We have to completely be the

1060
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:54,280
Speaker 4: gatekeepers to men's thoughts. No one can control anybody's thoughts.

1061
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 4: And if you see someone's collarbone or their ankle and

1062
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 4: you think that that is an invitation to do horrible

1063
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 4: things to them, you have some seriously defective thoughts. Yeah,

1064
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 4: to force everyone else. I mean this is in so

1065
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 4: many religions, Yeah, so many that the women have to

1066
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 4: fully cover up because men are uncontrollable. But let's give

1067
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 4: them authority because they're clearly they're capable of that. But

1068
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 4: they can't keep their hands from themselves. But my golly,

1069
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 4: they can run the world well.

1070
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 2: And I just like the culture that that must create

1071
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 2: and that we know that creates for men too, and

1072
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 2: the way that they, yeah, the way that they conceive

1073
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 2: of what they are allowed to do to women and

1074
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 2: what's okay for them.

1075
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 4: To do because it is all the woman's fault.

1076
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 2: I mean obviously that's just also society at large and patriarchy,

1077
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 2: but it's so much more like clearly defined and like

1078
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 2: egregious within some of these religions.

1079
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, Well what was interesting is when Josh Dugger's

1080
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 1: allegations came out, none was surprised in the religion.

1081
00:54:58,920 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 3: They were like, yeah, this is.

1082
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,240
Speaker 4: Kind of a thing. It happens all the time.

1083
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember there was even a maybe it

1084
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 1: was in a wisdom booklet where it was like brothers

1085
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 1: should not change their little sister's diapers because they shouldn't

1086
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: see that, because it's like very they.

1087
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:18,720
Speaker 4: Think about it's implanted, but that's implanted in them. Why

1088
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 4: tell anyone that, right? Why tell your son you can't

1089
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 4: look at the girl, but you can change the boy diapers,

1090
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 4: and yet girls can change boy and girl diapers. It's

1091
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:33,360
Speaker 4: because we've always been told women have sexual desires in

1092
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 4: their feelings, right, and they can control not by sight.

1093
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:40,399
Speaker 4: We don't have you know what I mean? Like men

1094
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 4: are all visual and women are all mental and emotional, right,

1095
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 4: so we can apparently handle it all. But the men,

1096
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know why they can't be

1097
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 4: strong in this.

1098
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:53,399
Speaker 3: Why can't they pluck their own eye out?

1099
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 4: I know, wouldn't it be great publicly it's or other

1100
00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:58,360
Speaker 4: things that the.

1101
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 2: Men that the IBLP described sound like fucking pussies to me,

1102
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:09,280
Speaker 2: because you're not strong enough to control yourself, Like sounds

1103
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 2: pretty freaking weak.

1104
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 4: Oh it's all I'm saying.

1105
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 2: It's it's sad. Yeah, it's really defective. So what was

1106
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 2: the Journey to the Heart?

1107
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's this conference.

1108
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 4: So I'm gonna be really honest with you. I did

1109
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 4: not experience Journey to the Heart because it didn't exist

1110
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 4: when I was in Ati. Oh. Okay. I went to Excel,

1111
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 4: which was the og I love that. This is my

1112
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 4: flack fairy. Yes, I'm so rad. But Excel was the

1113
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 4: Excel and Alert were the original male female programs for students.

1114
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,720
Speaker 4: So I went to the eight week program of Excel

1115
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 4: in Dallas at their training center there, and then I'm

1116
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 4: not sure what happened to Excel because I left in

1117
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 4: two thousand, but I think it kind of became Journey

1118
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 4: to the Heart. Okay.

1119
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 1: Did Excel feel like a grooming experience to you? Like,

1120
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: was it something that they were picking like, oh.

1121
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 3: This girl or this girl.

1122
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 4: No, you would enroll in it? Oh, you in it? Yeah,

1123
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:13,799
Speaker 4: there were barriers to entry. To be able to do it,

1124
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 4: you had to have.

1125
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 1: Once and it was it like he would pick girls

1126
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: from it, like how did you get to headquarters?

1127
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 2: Oh?

1128
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 4: I see, I say, okay. Well, first of all, the

1129
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 4: all these different programs students, they were meant for students,

1130
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 4: ati the homeschooling students. They were meant for the students

1131
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 4: to enroll in and then they could go and participate

1132
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 4: in these activities or conferences and experiences to better their faith.

1133
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 4: So I went. I think when I was fifteen, I

1134
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 4: went to Excel and that was one of my first

1135
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 4: times being away from home. It was my first time

1136
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 4: being away from home for eight weeks. It was a

1137
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 4: long time. So part of me was like, oh, this

1138
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 4: is amazing. I'm not at home with all that. But

1139
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 4: what the heck? Like I was constantly in trouble there,

1140
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 4: even when I I don't try to find trouble. It

1141
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:03,439
Speaker 4: just you know, I'm a magnet and here we are.

1142
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 4: But I think I was kind of a little I

1143
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 4: was a little defiant of stuff, or or I was

1144
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 4: seen as defiant. I'm going to reclarify that I was

1145
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 4: seen as defiant. I had questions. I didn't understand I

1146
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 4: wanted clarifications, and then that was seen as defiance and

1147
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 4: it you know, and that also busts your psyche up

1148
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 4: because you're just like, Wow, I'm just gonna continue to

1149
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 4: reduce myself because you're not. I'm not getting answers and

1150
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 4: I'm always getting in trouble. Same thing that happens at

1151
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 4: home with blanket training, right, stay on the blanket. So

1152
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 4: as far as getting to headquarters, my brother and I

1153
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 4: were really good at the children's institutes, and isn't it fun?

1154
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 4: I just keep we just keep throwing more and more

1155
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 4: programs at many programs. So with the Basic and Advanced Seminar,

1156
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 4: going back to IBLP, which is available to anybody, you

1157
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 4: do not have to be Christian. They started doing children's institutes,

1158
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 4: which was like Sunday Children's Church. So the parents are

1159
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 4: in the basic seminar, the kids go into another seminar

1160
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 4: for themselves. It's more fun and you know, we can

1161
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 4: just keep them under control and we're teaching them the

1162
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 4: character qualities. It's very similar to character first that they

1163
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 4: were teaching in the public schools. It's that material basically.

1164
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 4: So my brother and I we were getting really excited

1165
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 4: because we were starting to be allowed to go and

1166
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 4: travel and do seminars outside of our own town.

1167
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 1: And when you say character first, being tough in public schools,

1168
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 1: that was is that from Bill?

1169
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 4: Yes? Right?

1170
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 1: Because the material started getting into the public schools and

1171
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 1: the military and all of it.

1172
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 3: Yes, which is psychotic, and that's character first.

1173
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 4: So as far as us teaching in this whole children's

1174
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 4: institute situation, we were excited. We went to Atlanta and

1175
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 4: my brother and I stayed in a hotel together. We

1176
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 4: stayed in a hotel where all the students that were

1177
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:46,440
Speaker 4: from out of town we all stayed in the same hotel.

1178
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 4: And the first morning we go down into the breakfast

1179
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 4: room and we're you know, da, da da, and we're

1180
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 4: meeting everybody and doing our own little you know, Yay.

1181
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 4: It's more people that are like us, and you feel

1182
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 4: really good about that because you're not the others, You're

1183
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 4: not on the outside. And I'm just sitting eating my

1184
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 4: breakfast and walks Bill Gothard and we were just like

1185
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 4: it's like like they well, like they said in the documentary,

1186
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 4: it was like God, Jesus and Justin Bieber all rolled

1187
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 4: into wine. You're just like, oh, I'm starstruck. Oh it's him.

1188
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 4: He's here, you know. And so we're just like goose bumpy,

1189
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 4: and everybody's sitting up a little straighter and brighter. It's him.

1190
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 4: And he gets his breakfast and he sits down pretty

1191
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 4: pretty far across the breakfast room and just makes eyes

1192
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:29,919
Speaker 4: right at me. And I was like, oh, he's looking

1193
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 4: at me. Keep eating and be very righteous. He sees

1194
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 4: the Lord in me. Never thought anyone could. And anyway,

1195
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 4: so a few minutes go by, he keeps just he's

1196
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 4: not looking around the room, He's looking at me, and

1197
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 4: I literally was like, wow, he really is What is

1198
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 4: he seeing? He must have felt special. Yeah, I'm like,

1199
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 4: what is he seeing? Or is there something wrong with

1200
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 4: you know, picking your teeth. Anyway, he gets up and

1201
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 4: he comes over and he asks me if I would

1202
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 4: like to speak with him or that. He says that

1203
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 4: he would like to speak with me in the evening

1204
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 4: after the seminar, if I just come up to the

1205
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 4: front of the stage after the seminar and everything, like

1206
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 4: the students will go back to their hotels and I'll

1207
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 4: just wait up there and his assistant will come and

1208
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 4: get me. And I was like, oh, yeah, absolutely, yes, sir,

1209
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 4: I'd be honored. And off he goes, and my my

1210
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 4: brother's like, oh my god, oh my god, you know,

1211
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 4: and I'm like thought about what like what if it's

1212
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 4: about so you know, the whole day, I can't think.

1213
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 4: I'm trying to teach the kids and I just want

1214
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 4: to have no children around me. I'm like, I don't

1215
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 4: know what's happening. And he I go to the front,

1216
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 4: his assistant is there, the auditorium is empty, and we

1217
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 4: go out the back of the auditorium and his van

1218
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 4: is there. This becomes like very normal for me. Just ps,

1219
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 4: I'm not going to name his assistant. Oh it's a boy.

1220
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 4: Always well, in my time it was male. I heard.

1221
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 4: I've heard that in previous iterations and the years before

1222
01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 4: he had female assistants, but because of the trouble I

1223
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 4: think he kept getting into. They finally were like, you

1224
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 4: cannot have ladies. You can get you Yes, yeah, it's

1225
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 4: a quote student as we would call us, because it

1226
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 4: was it was you always knew it was someone else

1227
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 4: who had been raised like you. Okay, and we're all

1228
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 4: getting these opportunities as students because hey, free labor, and

1229
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 4: we're all eager to have ministry because we have no

1230
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 4: other direction when we're at home. So let's just go

1231
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 4: back into the ministry that gave us everything we know.

1232
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 4: So here we are getting in a van soldiers for Christ. Yes,

1233
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 4: so yeah. I get in the van and Bill's in

1234
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 4: there and he's very intrigued by me. He's just like,

1235
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:40,439
Speaker 4: you're so vivacious and you're so da da da da.

1236
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 4: And I'm like, oh, thank you, sir. And he's like,

1237
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 4: you know, how many brothers and sisters do you have?

1238
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:46,919
Speaker 4: You? You just like all the very light conversation. We get

1239
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 4: over to the office. He had like a little satellite

1240
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 4: office there, and there were some women that were making

1241
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 4: dinner for him and the other staff there, and so

1242
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 4: he's like, oh, if you want to go and help them,

1243
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 4: go ahead, and I'm like, oh, so am.

1244
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 2: I just here to help make lood dinner. I was

1245
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 2: like kind of bummed. I'm like, okay, so I go

1246
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 2: and I do that.

1247
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 4: And they were all very nice, but I felt very

1248
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 4: I always felt very on edge around women within this culture,

1249
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 4: because again, it's just the unknowns, and I'm worried about

1250
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 4: whatever is going to happen, and I don't the judgenus

1251
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 4: is so prevalent. But we have dinner and then he's like, well, lindsay,

1252
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 4: come into my office. I can never say, I can

1253
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 4: never talk like him and not have that that weird cadence.

1254
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 4: It's just so there. Anyway, So I go into the

1255
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 4: office and it's it's dark, it's like a dim office,

1256
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:32,480
Speaker 4: and you know, wood paneling and his things, and he's

1257
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 4: got like the dark red carpet and a burgundy leather

1258
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 4: chair and then hiss like yeah. And then his assistant

1259
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 4: is over in the corner with a desk and like

1260
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 4: typing away on the computer, and he just starts having

1261
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 4: a conversation with me. And one of the first questions

1262
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 4: he asked is like, so, lindsay, are you a virgin?

1263
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 3: And I metcha right?

1264
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 4: Nice, yeah, thank you for coming. But I was just like,

1265
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 4: first of all, the like I was already uncomfortable with

1266
01:03:57,440 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 4: these types of conversations around my own father, So like

1267
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:02,440
Speaker 4: what what why is Bill asking?

1268
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 1: So as you should be if my dad was like,

1269
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 1: are you a virgin, I'd be like what shut.

1270
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:09,880
Speaker 4: And wait yeah, and I just met you, like I

1271
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 4: don't know, twenty minutes ago.

1272
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 3: And also to batas this room for five seconds, so

1273
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 3: what is this about?

1274
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 4: So I felt like very all of a sudden, I

1275
01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:21,080
Speaker 4: felt like very uncomfortable and again embarrassed because here's a

1276
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:22,760
Speaker 4: man student over here, and I'm just like, yoh, I

1277
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 4: don't want him to know things, but also pride proud

1278
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 4: that I was a virgin. So I was like, yes,

1279
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 4: I am, sir, and he's like, well, are you in

1280
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 4: any relationships or any are you promised to anybody? Meaning

1281
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 4: courtship and things like that. And I was like, well,

1282
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 4: there is a guy back home that is like interested

1283
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 4: in courting me. And he's like, oh, okay, well tell

1284
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:42,600
Speaker 4: me about that. And I was like, well, he's thirty five,

1285
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 4: and I'm like I think I was eighteen at the time,

1286
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,800
Speaker 4: and he started interest when I was seventeen. And he

1287
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:53,160
Speaker 4: was just like, oh, well that's interesting, and I was

1288
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 4: just like yeah. So anyway, we talked for a few

1289
01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 4: more minutes and then he's like, well, how would you

1290
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 4: like to come to headquarters and work at headquarters? Who

1291
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 4: wouldn't What is headquarters?

1292
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 3: You said, that's the ship?

1293
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:07,560
Speaker 4: What is literally? I mean you were you are on

1294
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:12,600
Speaker 4: top of the world, Brook Illinois, Oh, Brook Illinois. And

1295
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 4: I think he's had this property since the sixties or seventies,

1296
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 4: but it's where his offices are, it's where he lives.

1297
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 4: He lives like two or three miles away from this place.

1298
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 4: And it's on all it's the it is on all

1299
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:27,080
Speaker 4: of the brochures. It's the it's that big building with

1300
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,040
Speaker 4: the custard colored pillars, you know, the very colonial looking

1301
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 4: buildings like that is headquarters. And not not all students

1302
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 4: get to go to headquarters. You get to go to

1303
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:38,440
Speaker 4: the terrible scary training centers or you know, do these

1304
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 4: delegation trips. Yeah, and there's a lot of stuff that

1305
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 4: goes on there. And I'd already been to Dallas for

1306
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:47,240
Speaker 4: Excel and I did not like it. You cannot leave,

1307
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 4: you are very controlled, and I just I also felt

1308
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:54,600
Speaker 4: like the students that were at headquarters just had so

1309
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 4: much more vivaciousness to them, and they were very charismatic

1310
01:05:58,560 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 4: and dynamic, and I thought, wow, like wow, he wants

1311
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 4: me to be that, Like that's even bigger and better

1312
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 4: and exciting to me than these training center opportunities. I

1313
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 4: never wanted to do training center opportunities. I wanted to travel,

1314
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 4: So I was just like just just my own little

1315
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 4: personal thing and like, I want to see the world,

1316
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:17,840
Speaker 4: but I can only do that as a missionary. So

1317
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:20,520
Speaker 4: you know, Bill, let me go to Taiwan or Romania

1318
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 4: or Russia. Like that's what I wanted. And it wasn't

1319
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 4: because I wanted to further God's word.

1320
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 1: I wanted to.

1321
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 4: See, but I was like, you know what, I'll play

1322
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 4: the game. I will imposter myself and it's not that

1323
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 4: I did this super consciously, right, you know.

1324
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 2: Okay, stay tuned next week for part two, y'all. That

1325
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:43,160
Speaker 2: concludes part one for this week. Megan, do you think

1326
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 2: that you would join this Cultell?

1327
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:47,960
Speaker 3: Now, I hate this cult.

1328
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 1: It is the opposite of everything I believe in, and

1329
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:53,080
Speaker 1: I hope everybody can get free from it.

1330
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 2: That's a good answer, and he can just end on that.

1331
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 1: I'm excited for next week episode because we dive deeper

1332
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 1: with Lindsay into what it was like living this life

1333
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 1: on Bill's compound. So thank you so much for spending

1334
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:09,160
Speaker 1: another week with us. We can't wait to see you

1335
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 1: again next week. As always, you remember to follow your gut,

1336
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:14,360
Speaker 1: watch out for red flags, and never.

1337
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:20,880
Speaker 4: Ever trust me, Ye trust me?

1338
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 2: As Produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1339
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 3: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1340
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:28,479
Speaker 4: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1341
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1342
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult pod, or on TikTok at

1343
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1344
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:40,400
Speaker 4: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1345
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1346
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 1: Hits on Twitter.

1347
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 4: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.