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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media Story.

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Speaker 2: Times.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to sixteenth Minute, the podcast where most weeks we

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Speaker 3: take a look at the Internet's main characters and see

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Speaker 3: how their moment affected them and what that says about

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Speaker 3: us and the Internet.

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Speaker 2: But not this week, Queen's not this week. This week

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Speaker 2: we are entering parts who too of our into.

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Speaker 3: The taking a look at how this space has both

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Speaker 3: continued to grow in influence and in our inability to

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Speaker 3: talk about it. Last week, in part one, we took

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Speaker 3: a look at the history of Manisphere spaces all the

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Speaker 3: way back to the nineteen seventies, and a little bit

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Speaker 3: about how it's been covered in the month following the

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Speaker 3: election and spoilers not particularly well. I personally feel that

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Speaker 3: the people best covering the Manisphere have already been doing

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Speaker 3: it for years, But first I just.

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Speaker 2: Wanted to do a little housekeeping at the top.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much to everyone who has reached out

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Speaker 3: to me after last week's episode.

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Speaker 2: It means a lot.

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Speaker 3: As much as I hate hearing how many of my

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Speaker 3: listeners have had assault experiences similar to mine, and that

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Speaker 3: they were also encouraged to not think of.

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Speaker 2: It as assault at the time.

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Speaker 3: If you have experienced something similar, be gentle with yourself

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Speaker 3: and thank you for listening, But I really do appreciate

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Speaker 3: your listening.

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Speaker 2: I firmly believe that we need.

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Speaker 3: Each other to be able to survive times like this,

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Speaker 3: because the systems are obviously still not acknowledging it. I

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Speaker 3: heard accounts that came nearly a full decade after my own,

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Speaker 3: which is honestly frightening. Domestic violence exists at rates that

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Speaker 3: should qualify it as domestic terrorism, but that's just not

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Speaker 3: how we've been taught to see this kind of violence.

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Speaker 3: And more than anything, as I was preparing for this

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Speaker 3: second part, as I was taking a look at the

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Speaker 3: different areas of the Manisphere over time, it became very

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Speaker 3: clear to me that for the most extreme areas, misogyny

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Speaker 3: is usually step one sort of the bait, because it's

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Speaker 3: so normalized and we hear it so often that most

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Speaker 3: people may not flinch if they hear something casually misogynist,

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Speaker 3: and some might even feel validated by it. And if

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Speaker 3: they're into that and decide to watch some Manisphere shows

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Speaker 3: will slowly turn up the ante. How about some transphobia

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Speaker 3: with that? How about some racially charged comments about this

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Speaker 3: type of woman? And not every listener is going to

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Speaker 3: be receptive to it. Not all men, but let's be honest,

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Speaker 3: many are, and the nature of these shows can sort

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Speaker 3: of function as a frog sitting in a pot full

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Speaker 3: of lukewarm water not realizing that it's coming to a boil.

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Speaker 3: And again I will place some content warnings here. There's

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Speaker 3: a lot of information in this episode and some of

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Speaker 3: it is pretty heavy. So if it's not a good

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Speaker 3: time for you for this kind of thing today, I

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Speaker 3: really enjoyed Wicked Part one, check it out.

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Speaker 2: I also really quickly just wanted to.

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Speaker 3: Issue one correction from last week's episode where I failed

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Speaker 3: to be clear enough.

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Speaker 2: I characterized custody.

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Speaker 3: Statistics that Men's Right activist site as their reason for

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Speaker 3: pushing back against mothers and women's rights and characterizing them

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Speaker 3: as vindictive, when I should have said that this is

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Speaker 3: the idea that motivates them, not that it's actually based

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Speaker 3: on historically true data.

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Speaker 2: In reality, while mothers are.

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Speaker 3: More likely to be granted custody, that's in large part

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Speaker 3: because fathers request custody far less frequently than mothers do.

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Speaker 3: So I apologize for making that sound as if it

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Speaker 3: was a fact.

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Speaker 2: It is very much a straw man argument.

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Speaker 3: And that is certainly an important distinction in spaces like

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Speaker 3: the manisphere, where so much is straw man arguments. So

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Speaker 3: this week I want to break down the manisphere, starting

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Speaker 3: from when many consider for it to have crossed into

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Speaker 3: the mainstream and from where it started to affect me. Specifically,

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Speaker 3: gamer Gate, a twenty fourteen harassment campaign where men's forums

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Speaker 3: previously thought to be niche targeted women working or commenting

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Speaker 3: on the gaming industry, particularly those who had explicitly criticized

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Speaker 3: games for misogyny anywhere from explicitly critiquing the industry to

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Speaker 3: simply speaking out against an intimate partner who had literally

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Speaker 3: posted revenge porn of them.

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Speaker 4: Violent depictions of women being beaten, raped, and run over

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Speaker 4: by cars. It's not the movies, it's video games. And

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Speaker 4: now the women calling for change in this multi billion

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Speaker 4: dollar virtual industry are facing a very real backlash, including

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Speaker 4: death threats.

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Speaker 3: And as we discussed, the second event of twenty fourteen

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Speaker 3: that brought the manisphere into the mainstream was the Isla

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Speaker 3: Vista massacre perpetrated by Elliott Roger, who went on to

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Speaker 3: become and still is a figurehead of the in cell movement,

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Speaker 3: who is considered a martyr to the cause of fighting

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Speaker 3: back against matriarchy. However, his misogynist manifesto, which was deeply

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Speaker 3: connected and hosted to in cell forums, was only mentioned

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Speaker 3: in passing in many mainstream media outlets, the same outlets

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Speaker 3: who are three hundred and fifty percent more likely to

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Speaker 3: bring up mental health as the central issue of these

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Speaker 3: killings as they would for a Muslim shooter. Here's a

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Speaker 3: Barbara Walters broadcast from the time.

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Speaker 5: I'll tell you the story of Bogra, chilling details you've

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Speaker 5: never heard until now about a loaner obsessed with finding

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Speaker 5: a girlfriend.

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Speaker 2: In the next ten years.

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Speaker 3: It became lethally clear that this loaner angle hugely underplayed

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Speaker 3: where Roger was getting positive reinforcement for this violence. Make

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Speaker 3: no mistake, Roger was pushing this parting message to the

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Speaker 3: in cell boards. Not only did it reference blackpill ideology,

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Speaker 3: the death cult mentality that indicated that women would never

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Speaker 3: like him and made him a martyr. The in cells

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Speaker 3: were inspired by this. And just so you know, I

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Speaker 3: will not be including quotes from any of these guys manifestos.

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Speaker 3: There our spaces where that's not unproductive, but this is

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Speaker 3: my show and no manifestos here.

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Speaker 2: And finally to the guy last.

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Speaker 3: Week in my comments who was like, interesting, you didn't

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Speaker 3: talk to many men. Yeah, if it was my goal

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Speaker 3: to platform men, I would own a house.

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Speaker 2: So come with me if you dare to.

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Speaker 3: The spring of twenty fourteen, during the fallout of the

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Speaker 3: Ala Vista murders, which claimed six lives, mainstream media was

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Speaker 3: still trying to figure out how to cover the story,

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Speaker 3: while the in cell communities that Roger spent so much

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Speaker 3: time in were celebrating.

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Speaker 6: The in cell rebellion has already begun. We will overthrow

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Speaker 6: all the Chads and Stacy's all hail the Supreme Gentleman,

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Speaker 6: Elliott Roger.

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Speaker 3: However, there is an ongoing argument amongst analysts of in

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Speaker 3: cell and manosphere spaces as to whether these forums can

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Speaker 3: be singled out as the sole cause of Roger's violence,

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Speaker 3: arguing that much of his own misogyny was already reinforced

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Speaker 3: by the culture that existed outside the Internet. Again, it's

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Speaker 3: this systemic versus is it these boards? Specifically, Michael Kimmel,

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Speaker 3: whose thesis on the Manisphere I cited in last week's episode,

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Speaker 3: argued this in twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 6: It would be facile to argue the manosphere urged Roger

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Speaker 6: to do this. I think those places are a kind

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Speaker 6: of solace. They provide a kind of locker room, a

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Speaker 6: place where guys can gripe about all the bad things

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Speaker 6: that are being done to them by women.

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Speaker 3: I don't fully agree with this, and I think it

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Speaker 3: fails to acknowledge a certain amount of gray area. On

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Speaker 3: one hand, I think Kimmel is right to emphasize that

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Speaker 3: manisphere message boards are places where men can take the

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Speaker 3: societally encouraged disrespective women and validate each other's prejudices. But

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Speaker 3: to suggest that these places don't amplify the violence of

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Speaker 3: those actions is not true in my opinion. And this

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Speaker 3: is what we're going to bump up against over and over.

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Speaker 3: More than one thing is going to be true in

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Speaker 3: some of these cases, and as it pertains to this show,

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Speaker 3: more than one thing being true tends to be bad

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Speaker 3: for social media engagement. But still, Kimmel is I think

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Speaker 3: right to say that Roger didn't have to do a

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Speaker 3: one point eighty ideologically to arrive at in cell logic,

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Speaker 3: the way that Western media conditions men to see themselves

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Speaker 3: in terms of virility, in appearance and in entitlement had

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Speaker 3: already gotten him pretty far along, and while we can't

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Speaker 3: know what motivated Roger definitively, there is no doubt that

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Speaker 3: he turned to these spaces as a way of validating

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Speaker 3: his low opinion of both women and himself, frequently posting

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Speaker 3: front facing YouTube videos of him jeering at couples in

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Speaker 3: the street and monologuing pretty point for point in cell

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Speaker 3: rhetoric using black pell logic that he will never be

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Speaker 3: the object of anyone's affection and might as well die

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Speaker 3: instead of, you know, not, being openly hostile to every

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Speaker 3: woman he ever came in contact with. In the days

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Speaker 3: leading up to the Elavista shootings, Roger also took his

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Speaker 3: own life. He began to refer to this premeditated plan

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Speaker 3: as the day of retribution and a method of punishing

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Speaker 3: the women that he felt rejected by, and Roger's influence

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Speaker 3: is clearly held in these spaces to this day, with

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Speaker 3: a number of subsequent killings citing his manifesto or shouting

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Speaker 3: him out by name. Look no further than the Umpqua

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Speaker 3: Community College shootings the next year, the christ Church mosque

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Speaker 3: shooter in twenty nineteen, or the twenty eighteen Toronto van

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Speaker 3: attack that claimed fifteen lives. The killer in Toronto said specifically.

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Speaker 6: I was thinking that I would inspire future masses to

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Speaker 6: join me in my uprising as well, and.

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Speaker 3: For more in this case specifically and its relationship to

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Speaker 3: the Manisphere, I would recommend the CBC podcast Boys Like

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Speaker 3: Me from a few years back. But in addition to

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Speaker 3: claiming to be in contact with Elliott Rodger, shortly before

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Speaker 3: his death, the Toronto shooter told authorities that he had

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Speaker 3: been radicalized on in cell forums shortly after the Ilavista

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Speaker 3: killings and referred to his attack as another day of retribution.

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Speaker 3: And of course, most people in the Manisphere aren't extremist killers,

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Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean that they are not encouraged to

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Speaker 3: cheer on those who are. That was a fixture of

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Speaker 3: spaces like four chan, eight chan, and earlier Reddit. Robert

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Speaker 3: Evans tracked this explicitly in the case of the christ

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Speaker 3: Church mosque shootings, which claimed fifty one lives, where fellow

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Speaker 3: manispheer adjacent racists watched the murder on a live streamed video.

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Speaker 2: And that's not the only killing of that kind.

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Speaker 3: Because, as it probably goes without saying, very few Manisphere

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Speaker 3: denizens are just misogynists. These communities very often intersect with racism, xenophobia, homophobia, transphobia,

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Speaker 3: and on and on. These communities are locked into a

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Speaker 3: view of women that is entrenched in all this jargon,

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Speaker 3: but it boils down to this binary chestnut. Women are

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Speaker 3: defined by their ability to provide sex and children for men,

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Speaker 3: and should be subservient as well as men must make

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Speaker 3: themselves high value, and what determines high value is entirely

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Speaker 3: decided by capitalism.

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Speaker 2: It requires monetary and.

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Speaker 3: Career success in addition to appearance, and can rely just

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Speaker 3: as much on men's self hatred as it does on

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Speaker 3: their hatred of anyone who isn't a man. But that

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Speaker 3: doesn't mean that people locked into the manisphere aren't from

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Speaker 3: a diverse array of backgrounds. I was actually pretty surprised

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Speaker 3: at how diverse.

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Speaker 2: This space is.

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Speaker 3: Around the same time the mid twenty tens, the black

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Speaker 3: manisphere began to grow led by influencers like Kevin Samuels,

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Speaker 3: who started a YouTube channel in twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 2: It is viewing shit like this, How are you even

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Speaker 2: willing to put a possible time frame only so we

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Speaker 2: need a time for anything, nobody.

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Speaker 7: We need a cooperative woman. We need a woman that

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Speaker 7: understands what men want and understand that, yes, this is

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Speaker 7: going to be a part of it. And I've asked

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Speaker 7: you the question how many times? So what do you

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Speaker 7: let me tell you? If you're not willing to answer

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Speaker 7: the question. It's not a trick to it. You're a

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Speaker 7: grown woman.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm I'm learning, still learning about different personalities.

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Speaker 7: It's not different personalities. It's a lot of you ladies

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Speaker 7: tend to want men to do all the work.

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Speaker 3: Samuels took on a similar but a little bit harsher

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Speaker 3: persona to Jordan Peterson, presenting himself as a fatherly professional

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Speaker 3: who is just helping men and women understand the world

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Speaker 3: and improve their confidence, while slowly but surely escalating into

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Speaker 3: full male supremacist logic, then encourage men to be cruel

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Speaker 3: and dismissive to the women around them. The difference is

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Speaker 3: that Samuel's a black man himself focused on talking to

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Speaker 3: black men in particular, and while he passed in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty two rather suddenly, his channel continues to post until

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Speaker 3: this day, and his influence.

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Speaker 2: Is certainly still felt.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Umar Johnson is another big black manisphere public figure

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Speaker 3: who at this point is basically given up on distancing

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Speaker 3: himself from his overt homophobia and misogyny, saying back in

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Speaker 3: twenty fourteen that planned parenthood quote was using homosexuality as

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Speaker 3: a population control strategy in the black community. And as

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Speaker 3: this misogyny is being pushed toward black viewers specifically, it

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Speaker 3: tends to be extremely vitriolic toward Black women in particular,

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Speaker 3: and unfortunately, the most harsh version of this is also

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Speaker 3: the most popular feature of the black manisphere right now,

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Speaker 3: the ultra popular podcast Fresh and Fit, whose hosts are

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Speaker 3: particularly cruel to Black women on their show, because remember,

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Speaker 3: no matter who's talking about manuspheer shit, they are operating

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Speaker 3: on a fundamentally white supremacist logic.

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Speaker 2: First time, don'ating just say Maron is a real one.

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Speaker 6: Don't change for nobody.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, fuck out here, bro, we don't change. I don't

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Speaker 2: even know who she is, so don't care. That's King girl,

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Speaker 2: Like you don't know who Queen Vaughn is. No, I

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Speaker 2: know who King Vaughan is, but I mean.

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Speaker 8: I don't.

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Speaker 5: Oh the fact you said it's King Vaugh's girl instead

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Speaker 5: of it was heard yea, and.

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Speaker 3: Let it be known That is the least convincing reading

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Speaker 3: of I Don't Care that I've heard in my entire life.

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Speaker 3: Similar spaces existed for Asian men interested in Manisphere content.

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Speaker 3: I mean, don't worry, fellas. Everyone can hate women in

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Speaker 3: the Manisphere.

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Speaker 2: And boy do they.

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Speaker 3: These influencers delight in broadcasting themselves, making women uncomfortable, and

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Speaker 3: sharing the content as if they're owning them.

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Speaker 2: And you might.

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Speaker 3: Remember this if you were on YouTube around this time.

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Speaker 3: There was a notorious style of video that had titles

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Speaker 3: like this.

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Speaker 9: Jordan Peterson repeatedly owns Australian feminist Ben Shapiro Dismantle's third

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Speaker 9: wave feminism. Kevin Samuels knows ladies hate when the roles

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Speaker 9: are reversed.

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Speaker 6: Patriarchy, which is a system of male dominance of society.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, but that's not my sense of the patriarchy.

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Speaker 2: What's yours?

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Speaker 10: Well, in what senses are society male dominated?

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Speaker 6: The fact that the vast majority of wealth is owned

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Speaker 6: by men, a vast majority of capital.

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Speaker 2: And is owned by men. Women do more unpaid labor.

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Speaker 10: Very tiny proportion of men, and a huge proportion of

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Speaker 10: people who are seriously disaffected or men. Most people in

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Speaker 10: prison are men. Most people who are on the street

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Speaker 10: are men. Most victims of violent crime are men. Most

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Speaker 10: people commit suicide or men. Most people who die in

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Speaker 10: wars are men. People who do worse in school are men.

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Speaker 10: It's like, where's the dominance here?

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Speaker 3: Precisely, and these kinds of videos would have millions of views.

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Speaker 3: And Peterson there is virtually giving a list of classic

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Speaker 3: men's rights talking points, that is, listing out statistics about

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Speaker 3: how patriarchy negatively affects men and presenting it as an

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Speaker 3: argument against feminism for some reason, and while it's perhaps

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Speaker 3: the most obvious point on the fucking planet, no conversation

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Speaker 3: about the strengthening and empowerment of the manisphere would be

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Speaker 3: complete without the twenty sixteen election of Donald Trump. There

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Speaker 3: is ample proof that manisphere groups embraced Trump and loved

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Speaker 3: his proclivity for saying the quiet part loud. Laura Bates, author.

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Speaker 2: Of Men Who Hate Women.

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Speaker 3: Praised back the history of these groups and found that,

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Speaker 3: with the exception of men's rights activists hyper fixating on

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Speaker 3: custody courts, these Manisphere groups were not particularly political pre Trump,

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Speaker 3: but when he enters the sphere, they actually organized on

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Speaker 3: his behalf and the groups steadily become more politicized, and

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Speaker 3: that's not a mistake. Former Trump chief strategist and current

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Speaker 3: disgusting goblin Steve Bannon admitted to courting in cells, specifically

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Speaker 3: during the twenty sixteen election cycle.

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Speaker 6: He said this, it was very much in the margins

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Speaker 6: and in the fringes of society to bring and recruit

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Speaker 6: people who would otherwise not necessarily engage in conventional politics,

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Speaker 6: but would engage with particular kinds of ideas that Cambridge

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Speaker 6: Analytica promoted online that can make an impact. If you

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Speaker 6: get an extra one percent, an extra two percent in

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Speaker 6: that swing state, and you win that swing state, that

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Speaker 6: might mean you win the presidency.

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Speaker 3: And of course Trump continued to deliver on both rhetorical

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Speaker 3: misogyny that was reflected in his policy and extended to

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Speaker 3: a hatred of immigrants and trans people, who he has

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Speaker 3: repeatedly targeted in the years since. So to be clear,

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying that the manisphere elected Trump. They're not

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Speaker 3: quite that prominent. But Bannon and Trump were successful in

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Speaker 3: getting men who were otherwise ambivalent towards electoral politic to

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Speaker 3: become engaged because of him. The misogynist rhetoric, the whole.

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Speaker 11: Hey, when you're a start, they let you do it.

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Speaker 12: You can do anything whatever you want.

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Speaker 5: Grab him by the.

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Speaker 7: I can do any of that.

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Speaker 3: God, I can't believe that's the second time I've had

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Speaker 3: to play the grab him by the pussy clip on

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Speaker 3: this show.

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Speaker 2: Unfair.

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Speaker 3: What's also worth mentioning here, and why I think there's

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Speaker 3: such a high barrier to entry for people to understand

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Speaker 3: these communities, is that there is a full and infuriating

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Speaker 3: multiverse of vocabulary, of specific memes, and of deflective ironic

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00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:42,160
Speaker 3: humor that can make these Manisphere boards pretty hard to understand.

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Speaker 3: When it comes to irony pilled humor that was already

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Speaker 3: tied into comedy that was popular in the early to

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Speaker 3: mid two thousands, the same time that comedy was becoming

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Speaker 3: increasingly influenced by the Internet and in general pretty heavily

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Speaker 3: reliant on shock. This was the era of able list,

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Speaker 3: Helen Keller jokes, of dead baby jokes, casual or overt racism,

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Speaker 3: and stuff that mainstream culture thankfully sort of moved on

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Speaker 3: from after the peak of jud Appatau romance movies, But

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Speaker 3: the Manisphere never really moves on from this edge. Lord

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Speaker 3: humor and you'll find time and time again that very often,

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Speaker 3: after saying something completely horrific about a marginalized group, a

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Speaker 3: member of the manisphere will say, what I was joking,

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Speaker 3: you took me out of context A likely story. A

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Speaker 3: great example of this is famous misogynist pickup artist influencer

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Speaker 3: Julian Blanc was under fire back in twenty fourteen for

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Speaker 3: advocating that rape should be legal if one commits that

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Speaker 3: rape on their own property. Hilarious, right, and his response

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Speaker 3: to the understandable backlash to this was going on to

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Speaker 3: CNN and claiming that people misunderstood his hilarious joke.

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Speaker 7: You intended every part of this.

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Speaker 2: True intentions were never bad.

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Speaker 13: I agree, it was a horrible at humor, and unfortunately

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Speaker 13: a lot of it also got just put out of context.

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Speaker 3: And you probably will not be surprised to hear that.

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Speaker 3: Shortly after this, he returned to preaching the same stuff

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Speaker 3: for years after the controversy, and all but admitted in

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Speaker 3: a blog post that this apology was insincere. As for vocabulary,

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00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,880
Speaker 3: terms that began in the Manisphere that have since gone

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Speaker 3: mainstream include obviously red and black pilling, and mis injury

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Speaker 3: or a hatred of men, which started in MRA forums.

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Speaker 3: There's femoids gross, and there's red pill wives, which is

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Speaker 3: a particularly disturbing subgroup that consists of women who are

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Speaker 3: frequently characterized as just wanting to remain in the home,

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Speaker 3: which would be fine if true, but what red pill

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Speaker 3: wives actually depend on is thriving on their own self

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Speaker 3: hatred and projecting this same misogyny at other women using

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Speaker 3: red pill logic. There's Alfa and Beta and Sigma men.

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Speaker 3: The list goes on, and then there's the memes. Much

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00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 3: of the reporting around in cells and eventually QAnon was

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00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 3: how frequently memes spread racist and misogynist jokes that set

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Speaker 3: the tone for the community while also making it a

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Speaker 3: safe space to say the most fucked up thing possible.

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Speaker 3: In the mid to late twenty tens, this meant stuff

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Speaker 3: like the tremendously successful co opting of Pepe the Frog,

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00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,959
Speaker 3: a creation of comic artist Matt Fury who had nothing

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Speaker 3: politically in common with the people turning his cartoon into

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00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 3: a horrific sign of the alt right. I would recommend

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Speaker 3: checking out the documentary Feels good Man for more of that.

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Speaker 3: But memes let these communities say the quiet part loud

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Speaker 3: while maintaining the illusion of it's just a joke. You guys, though,

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00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 3: why a Pepe the frog in a KKK rope is

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Speaker 3: funny remains. I mean, it's just hate speech, right maybe.

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Speaker 3: Fast forward to twenty seventeen. Trump is inaugurated and both

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Speaker 3: the Muslim band protests and the Women's March take place

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Speaker 3: early this year. By this time, I had moved to

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Speaker 3: California to live with my rapists, who thankfully never picked

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Speaker 3: me up at the airport, and so I proceeded to

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Speaker 3: become a successful comedian. At the time, though, I was

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Speaker 3: working part time and doing freelance writing, much of which

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Speaker 3: centered around the Me Too movement, which began in late

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Speaker 3: twenty seventeen after a year where besogyny was more in

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Speaker 3: mainstream discourse than ever. And in case you don't remember,

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Speaker 3: there were a few moments early in the Me Too

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Speaker 3: moment that made huge waves in Western culture while also

401
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 3: indicating this movement's shortcomings from the jump now. The hashtag

402
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 3: itself was created by Tarana Burke, a black survivor of

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Speaker 3: sexual assault, on my Space all the way back in

404
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 3: two thousand and six, but the hashtag didn't really take

405
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 3: off in the mainstream until late twenty seventeen, the big

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00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 3: story was Harvey Weinstein, as prominent actresses were finally comfortable

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Speaker 3: enough to come forward and say that he had raped

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00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 3: or assaulted them, thankfully leading to his likelihood of dying

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Speaker 3: in prison. What I think the major accomplishment of this

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Speaker 3: movement was was making it socially permissible to talk about

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Speaker 3: experiences of assault, harassment, or gender discrimination of any kind.

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Speaker 3: And given that the women's March Think Pussy had remember

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Speaker 3: that had taken place in early twenty seventeen, Me too

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00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 3: at the time felt like an opportunity to at least

415
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 3: keep the conversation moving, and I was all about me

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Speaker 3: too in its early days. It was during this time

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Speaker 3: that I remember first hearing a swath of feminists rightfully

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Speaker 3: argue for rehabilitation and deradicalization of the men who were

419
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Speaker 3: perpetuating these abuses where I work in comedy, but at

420
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 3: the time still being pretty fresh out of this abusive

421
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 3: relationship and working a day job at fucking Playboy magazine,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to talk about it. My response was

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Speaker 3: just like rehabilitation, fuck, you, just get these men out

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Speaker 3: of here, make them leave. Because this was the first

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Speaker 3: moment in my adult life that that seemed even remotely possible.

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Speaker 3: So in a freelance column for Pace Magazine in December

427
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Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, I wrote that the piece was literally called

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Speaker 3: make them Leave. I began with the example of trying

429
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Speaker 3: to bargain with male comedy bookers to stop giving known

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Speaker 3: abusers time on their shows, and expanded my frustrations into

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00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 3: these talks of rehabilitation in a moment where I felt

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00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 3: like our frustration was only beginning to be addressed. Here's

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00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 3: a passage from that I was driving from one gig

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00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 3: to another with a friend. This passed fall when she

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00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 3: mentioned needing to quote rehabilitate our communities unquote as it

436
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 3: pertained to men assaulting female comedians. Voluntary wave of anger

437
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 3: it sent through my body. Rehabilitate, make them leave. That's

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Speaker 3: the least we can do. It's not my responsibility to

439
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 3: explain to someone why they can't touch me, berate me,

440
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 3: or rape me. Make them leave. I didn't say anything

441
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 3: for the rest of the night. I also don't think

442
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 3: she was wrong to bring the idea of rehabilitation into

443
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,679
Speaker 3: the conversation. It's a complicated issue that I think we

444
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 3: will have to grapple with in the coming years, with

445
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 3: predators who are finally being held accountable. Today, right now,

446
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 3: I think we should make them fucking leave. It's weird

447
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 3: to read this now because I don't even disagree.

448
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 2: With what I'm saying here.

449
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 3: I'm twenty four and in a lot of pain, and

450
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 3: also kind of naively optimistic that writing this is going

451
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 3: to liberate me in all of the women around me,

452
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 3: and I do believe that white women specifically owe it

453
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 3: to others to do some of this deradicalization and rehabilitation work.

454
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 3: But in the moment, I was so angry that, weeks

455
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 3: after women being able to speak freely about this, the conversation.

456
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 2: Went back to what do we do about the men?

457
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: I don't care.

458
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 3: At the time, I was so angry and so convinced

459
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 3: that getting these abusive men out of my sight would

460
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 3: mean that either they would have to learn or disappear.

461
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 3: And some of them learned, but many of them didn't,

462
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 3: and none of them disappeared, And of course, the far

463
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 3: reaches of the manisphere fucking hated the me too movement.

464
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 3: Here are some comments from forums around the time.

465
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 6: The main reason is that real victims don't get heard

466
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 6: because hundreds of women tell us that someone accidentally touched

467
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 6: their ass once on the bus ten years ago. It

468
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 6: belittles women who have actually been subjected to rape or

469
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 6: gross sexual harassment. I also wonder why women repeatedly end

470
00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 6: up alone in parks take black taxis set. Why did

471
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 6: you ride an elevator alone with a strange man? Would

472
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 6: a better option have been to wait for the next elevator.

473
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 3: And this is way mild in comparison to some other

474
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 3: stuff I saw in retrospect. I think Me Too was

475
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 3: actually an excellent recruiting opportunity for the manispheer because for

476
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 3: a moment, it was socially permissible for women to speak out,

477
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 3: and the manisphere could pitch this as a moment that

478
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 3: proved their point.

479
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 2: Look at these women. They want you to lose your job.

480
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 3: You can't say anything anymore, you can't do anything anymore.

481
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 3: They're trying to ruin our lives.

482
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: Now, I want to say.

483
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 3: Me Too is a rightfully criticized movement because, as with

484
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 3: virtually every other American feminist movement before it, its interests

485
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 3: disproportionately prioritize the wealthy, CIS and white. This is a

486
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 3: pretty popular point of view at this point, and while

487
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 3: the Weinstein story initially felt like the beginning of something

488
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 3: that could cut across class and race boundaries, that's not

489
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 3: really what happened. So, like every feminist movement that came

490
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 3: before it, me Too during twenty seventeen into twenty eighteen

491
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 3: failed to get meaningful results anywhere other than with the

492
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 3: financially privileged and mostly white. At the time, it was

493
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 3: such a cathartic moment for speaking out about misogyny being

494
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 3: publicly acceptable for the first time in a generation. It

495
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 3: improved some media representation and allowed people to feel safe

496
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 3: sharing their experiences, but the lack of an endgame led

497
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 3: the movement to get tangled and sort of fizzle out

498
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 3: in this whiff of pink pussy hat performativity. A few

499
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 3: abusers being ejected from Hollywood is great, but to treat

500
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 3: that as sufficient while women in the working class's struggles

501
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 3: remained unchanged and largely unacknowledged.

502
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 2: Means that enough wasn't done.

503
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 3: Not to mention that when it came to intersectionality with

504
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 3: trans women, this era was bad. So, while it was

505
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 3: deeply in perfect, me Too's prominence in the media gave

506
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 3: certain manisphere influencers the opportunity to double and triple down

507
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 3: from soft misogynists who serve as an entry point for many.

508
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 3: The previous generation had rash Limbaugh, we had Ben Shapiro

509
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 3: and yeah, we got there.

510
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 2: Guys like Joe Rogan.

511
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 11: Is there a photo of this flat Earth?

512
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 2: No?

513
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 6: Like I just said again, there's no photo of the

514
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 6: flat Earth from space. There's no photo of the round.

515
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 11: Earth for a space that's not your true And.

516
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 3: It's around this time that Rogan becomes extremely popular. He'd

517
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 3: been around for a long time, and the podcast had

518
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 3: been around in some form since all the way back

519
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 3: in two thousand and nine. But before that he'd been

520
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 3: a stand up an actor, a UFC announcer. Yes, that

521
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 3: is how he met Dana White, and my personal favorite,

522
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: a guy who makes people eat bugs on TV.

523
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: Fair Fact that has known.

524
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 9: For dreaming up some of the mouse outrageous and insane

525
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 9: stunts you could possibly imagine.

526
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 4: Over the past three season, contests have been confronted with

527
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 4: over one hundred and sixty five stunts.

528
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 5: Tonight, we're gonna count down the fifteen most outrageous moments

529
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 5: on fear Fact.

530
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 2: Buckle up, because it's not.

531
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 3: Gonna be pretty, and from the beginning, mister Joe presented

532
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 3: himself as not an outright bigot, but usually a guy

533
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 3: who would talk to anybody. I talked about this a

534
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 3: little bit in my interview with Becca Lewis last week,

535
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 3: but I would classify Rogan as an I'm just asking

536
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 3: questions guy who would have people on the show that

537
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 3: were likely to get the show a lot of attention.

538
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 3: He does push back on guests he doesn't agree with

539
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 3: from time to time, but the question I wish more

540
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 3: off his fans ask themselves is if Rogan knows who

541
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: these people are in advance and probably the points they'll argue,

542
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 3: why air something he disagrees with so thoroughly You're not dumb.

543
00:31:58,520 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: You know why.

544
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 3: It wasn't and still isn't a fully political show, which

545
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 3: I think is actually part of its appeal. It's always

546
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,719
Speaker 3: been very masculine. Their own website admits that ninety percent

547
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 3: of guests are men, and the show's early recurring guests

548
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 3: were male stand ups of Rogan's generation, guys who aren't

549
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 3: afraid to drop us lur or a light misogyny every

550
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 3: few sentences. But he also hosts athletes, musicians. It was

551
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 3: a general interest show that kind of became a lifestyle

552
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 3: marker for its longtime listeners, but occasionally, and often successfully,

553
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 3: Rogan would platform just a full blown supremacist, male supremacist,

554
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 3: white supremacist and heavy hitters at that Stefan Molinu, Candace Owens,

555
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 3: Gavin McInnis, Milo Uanapolis, Jordan Peterson, Alex fucking Jones, dude,

556
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 3: more than once.

557
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 11: Now you find the system, you automatically know what to do.

558
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 11: Like when you talk about something the president word for

559
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 11: Worden repeats me Trump as what freaks them out. Word

560
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 11: for word. The whole speech is like whole things and

561
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 11: I'm not on a power trip. That's what they flipped

562
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 11: out about at the CIA and everywhere else. And they're like, well,

563
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 11: Jones is connected to Trump, and I think Trump's like

564
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 11: an idiot savon what does.

565
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: That have to do with this speech? And to get

566
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: ahead of it.

567
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 3: Yes, Rogan has also had his fair share of leftists

568
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 3: on you're Bernie Sanders, you're Edward Snowden's and a lot

569
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 3: of people like to cite the fact that Rogan supported

570
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 3: Sanders in twenty twenty, but the fact remains. Rogan has

571
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 3: said on many occasions that he books these guests himself,

572
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: and so the repeated visits of white supremacists on the

573
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 3: show is not an accident. It's been happening for over

574
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 3: ten years. I could trace it back to twenty thirteen.

575
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 3: And while he still hasn't been a proper guest on

576
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 3: the show, someone who comes up a lot on the

577
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: Joe Rogan Experience is one Andrew Tait. And we'll come

578
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 3: back to Rogan and the podcast inspired by him in

579
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 3: a little bit, but we're going to take a detour

580
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: to Andrew Tait, a male suprema currently under house arrest

581
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 3: in Romania. So if you had the pleasure of not

582
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 3: being aware of this guy until this moment, you might

583
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 3: be like, what's happening in Romania? And the answer is

584
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 3: worse than you could possibly imagine. No conversation about contemporary

585
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 3: Manisphere influencers would be complete without discussing Andrew Tait. Next

586
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 3: to Jordan Peterson and the Fresh and Fit podcast. This

587
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 3: is the name that's come up in most of my

588
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 3: interviews about significant Manisphere influencers among young people.

589
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 2: Specifically, I talked.

590
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 3: To a middle school teacher who is beside themselves about

591
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 3: how frequently they'd find their students engaging with his content.

592
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 3: The content is like this.

593
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 13: Life for a man is harder than life for a woman.

594
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 13: We need to have a lot of shit to be

595
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 13: an important man. To be a woman, you need makeup.

596
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,399
Speaker 13: If you're truly beautiful, you don't need anything else. I've

597
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 13: been on boats in Dubai with nineteen year old Muldovan girls.

598
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 13: The guy who got that boat needed one hundred million dollars.

599
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 13: That bitch makeup.

600
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 7: Never say you go in to bed.

601
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 8: Going to bed is emasculine.

602
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 2: Cowards need sleep.

603
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 3: Well, I'm texting you, you beautiful girl, but I'm tired.

604
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:07,879
Speaker 12: I'm going to.

605
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: Bed, you know.

606
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 11: I like to say, at fucking court pass one in.

607
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 13: The morning, I'm going to work, work at this time.

608
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 2: Money never sleeps, baby.

609
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 12: Then I go to bed, and.

610
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 13: The most beautiful girls in the world are not walking

611
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 13: around shopping centers in England or fucking Nebraska or Idaho

612
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 13: or wherever you dorks do your day game.

613
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 11: So I people go.

614
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 2: I picked up a nine at the mall. There's no

615
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: nines in that mall, you fucking moro.

616
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 13: I could sit outside that mall for a month and

617
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 13: analyze every single chicken walks in there. And I'll see

618
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 13: a single nine and you're telling me every weekend you

619
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 13: go find the only nine in the mall.

620
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 14: Do you fuck she's a five and you're desperate.

621
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

622
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 3: Tate, as you can hear, is pretty high on the

623
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 3: extremist scale, joining the cadre of Manosphere influencers who explicitly

624
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 3: advocate for assault and rolling back women's rights. Beginning as

625
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 3: a kickboxer and Big Brother contestant, and Tates' popularity steeply

626
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 3: increased throughout the twenty tens through overtly misogynist ventures like

627
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 3: Hustler's University and The Pillthinking driven the real world and

628
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 3: to get back to Romania. This past summer, he was

629
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 3: arrested there for charges of rape, human trafficking, and forming

630
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 3: an organized crime group to traffic women, and the investigation

631
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 3: has since been expanded to include charges of trafficking miners

632
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 3: and money laundering. He is literally under house arrest for

633
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 3: rape right now, and his content is still very popular

634
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 3: among children, and the Tates of the world definitely need

635
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 3: the Joe Rogans of the world to survive, because, yes,

636
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 3: seeing this unhinged man could be appealing to a kid

637
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 3: on its own, but to see that same unhinged man

638
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 3: being validated as worth talking about with a prominent, well

639
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 3: recognized figure is a legitimizing move. And again to draw

640
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 3: a line, and that's what the I'm just asking questions

641
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 3: corner of the manisphere really offers. It's easier for them

642
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 3: to remain mainstream while not getting arrested, but they are

643
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 3: open to these ideas. Okay, we're in twenty eighteen. At

644
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 3: this time, other already existent corners of the manispheer continued

645
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 3: to pull in new recruits, and as I'll discuss, the

646
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 3: manisphere expanded in every subcommunity in cells, men's rights activists,

647
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 3: pick up artists, men going their own way, and even

648
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 3: subgroups among these categories. And what I find particularly dangerous

649
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 3: is that both these creators and social media algorithms became

650
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 3: very good at finding young people who fit the bill

651
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 3: as being susceptible to this content, Young people who are

652
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 3: insecure in their bodies or lacking in real life spaces

653
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 3: and support systems to turn their head another way. And remember,

654
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: this is an issue that's just as much driven by

655
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 3: social issues as it is by algorithms. Algorithms are powerful tools,

656
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 3: but the ideology is the real weapon here. Economic disparity

657
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 3: fuels the manisphere. Like I mentioned earlier, most Manisphere participants

658
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 3: are encouraged to see themselves in relation to their quote

659
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 3: unquote value and success. And in an increasingly difficult economy

660
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 3: where men are trained to project and blame this economic

661
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 3: insecurity on women, well you can see how it can

662
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 3: get bad pretty quickly. And so for young men who

663
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 3: felt socially awkward or sometimes were neurodivergent, these spaces could

664
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 3: become tremendously appealing.

665
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 2: And that's not even to mention how young.

666
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 3: People are targeted at In the era of the iPad kid,

667
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 3: we see algorithms and influencers target kids as young as

668
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 3: ten years old, according to Manisphere influencer Andrew England in

669
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 3: a leaked Best Social Media Practices document in the early

670
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 3: twenty twenties.

671
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: And this is extreamist group that is targeting children. So

672
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,760
Speaker 2: why can't we call this what it is? Extreme?

673
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 3: Misogynist groups were very slow to be classified overtly as

674
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,439
Speaker 3: hate groups, and their crimes were almost never called out

675
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 3: for what the killers like Elliott Roger were explicitly telling

676
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 3: us that they were. The Southern Poverty Law Center was

677
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 3: the first to add male supremacy onto their registry of

678
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 3: Hate Groups, and that wasn't until twenty eighteen. And while

679
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 3: this was a step forward, it's a bit concerning that

680
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 3: it took that long, given that the SPLC had been

681
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 3: well aware of these spaces since twenty twelve, but resisted

682
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 3: classifying them as hate groups for half a decade. According

683
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 3: to SPLC's Arthur Goldwag in twenty.

684
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 6: Twelve, it should be mentioned that the SPLC did not

685
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 6: label MRAs as members of a hate movement, nor did

686
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 6: our article claim that the grievances they air on their websites,

687
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 6: false rape accusations, ruinous divorce settlements and the like are

688
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 6: all without merit, but we did call out specific examples

689
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 6: of misogyny and the threat overt or implicit of violence.

690
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 3: And while these institutions lagged to acknowledge what the Manisphere

691
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 3: had become, others took it upon themselves to try and

692
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 3: slow its spread. Following the twenty sixteen election and the

693
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 3: Me Too movement, there was a series of online creators

694
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 3: and thinkers who were beginning to see the Manisphere for

695
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 3: what it was, increasing in both toxicity and size, and

696
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 3: a space that needed to be deradicalized. If there was

697
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 3: any chance of decreasing its influence. There were many people

698
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 3: doing this work at the time, but I'm going to

699
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 3: hone in on the YouTuber who I've heard most commonly

700
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 3: cited by young men who were deradicalized around this time

701
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 3: and in the years since. Contra points a very talented

702
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 3: creator who is no stranger to being a main character herself.

703
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 3: I watched these videos at the time they were released, too,

704
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 3: and they're extremely good.

705
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 2: Natalie, when the channel's ou.

706
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 3: Tour and researcher, brought the perspective of a transwoman to

707
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 3: the conversation and acknowledged that when she was living and

708
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 3: being socially conditioned as a man, that she found the

709
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 3: in cell and other irony pill p hate forums appealing

710
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 3: because of the validation it gave her of her discomfort

711
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 3: in her own body and an answer for why she

712
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 3: was so frustrated. Of course, this answer was not true.

713
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 3: Once Natalie began to explore her gender, identify as non binary,

714
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 3: and eventually came out as a transwoman, she was world

715
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 3: happier than she was living as a man who hated women.

716
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 3: Using this experience, in addition to incredible research, talent delivery,

717
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 3: and oh my God aesthetics. Natalie was able to bring

718
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 3: personal experience in an impressive amount of thoughtfulness regarding these groups,

719
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 3: and critically, she knew how to speak their language. To

720
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 3: give you an idea of how these videos were structured,

721
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 3: here's a clip from in Cells, a twenty eighteen video

722
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 3: that has six million views at the time of this writing.

723
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 12: The word in cell refers to a more specific community

724
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 12: of mostly heterosexual men centered around forums like incell, dot

725
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 12: me and r slash brain Cells. This group has recently

726
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 12: gotten a lot of bad press because for the last

727
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 12: few years they've been churning out mass murderers faster than

728
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 12: Marvel can make Avengers movies. But most in cells aren't

729
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 12: violent killers. They're just men who've formed an identity around

730
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 12: not getting laid. In this video, I don't want to

731
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 12: mock in cells, or lecture them, or even sympathize with them.

732
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 12: I just want to understand who they are and why

733
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 12: they're like this.

734
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 3: Natalie Winn's strategy was extremely successful at the time because,

735
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 3: unlike so many media outlets that were ignoring or miscovering

736
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 3: the issue, she understood that to reach disaffected in cells

737
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 3: it was ultimately an algorithmic game. So in order to

738
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 3: get her videos seen, she was using the same hashtags,

739
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 3: the same aesthetics, the same language that extremist in cell

740
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 3: videos were, and she had a lot of success in

741
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 3: covertly infiltrating the YouTube algorithms of the insel curious and

742
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 3: effectively showing them some empathy and encouraging them to know

743
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 3: themselves better versus you know, signing a Sea Org style

744
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 3: infinity contract to hate women forever. And this turned into

745
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 3: a series of videos that got the ContraPoints channel a

746
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 3: lot of attention, but became too large of a burden

747
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 3: for one person, and so eventually she moved on to

748
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 3: other topics. And besides, her algorithmic strategy only worked as

749
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 3: long as.

750
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 2: That was the way that the algorithm was.

751
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 3: As we've talked about countless times on this show, the

752
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 3: YouTube algorithm was all but unmonitored in the mid to

753
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 3: late twenty tens and was very difficult to do well consistently.

754
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 3: Within Natalie successful algorithm infiltration and validates a consistent truth

755
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 3: in the manisphere. YouTube is an integral part of it.

756
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 3: After all, YouTube is now more popular than standard television

757
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 3: among young men, and as of the early twenty twenties

758
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 3: was the most used site in the world. I don't

759
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 3: think the fact that Rogan began his podcast on YouTube

760
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 3: all the way back in two thousand and nine is

761
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 3: any coincidence. Maybe a lucky mistake, but what his ideology

762
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 3: became makes it clear that the YouTube algorithm that favors

763
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 3: his guest with extreme or weird views has worked consistently.

764
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 2: And make no mistake, YouTube's.

765
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 3: Algorithm was also a part of why Manisphere spaces were

766
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 3: so successful at bringing new people in at higher rates

767
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,399
Speaker 3: in the mid to late twenty tens, and I want

768
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 3: to be careful here and not blame this growth of

769
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 3: the Manisphere on the algorithm wholesale. In our interview last week,

770
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 3: Beccaluis emphasized that this spirit of misogyny was already very

771
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 3: much normalized. But what algorithms can do by serving users

772
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 3: the same shit over and over and over is make

773
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 3: a user's worst instinct seem like a far more mainstream

774
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 3: opinion than it actually is. If your algorithm is flooded

775
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 3: with Manisphere content and you don't fully understand how that

776
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 3: algorithm works, it's easy to envision a world where a

777
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 3: kid can think, oh, everyone must feel this way. Studies

778
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 3: now indicate that changes to the YouTube algorithm made in

779
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen have pretty effectively slowed the unhinged radicalization phase

780
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 3: we heard talked about so much during the twenty sixteen

781
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 3: election cycle and beyond. But it won't surprise you to

782
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 3: hear that this happened, let's say, about half a decade

783
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 3: too late.

784
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 2: It's great that.

785
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 3: The algorithm is no longer directly targeting people to be radicalized,

786
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 3: but once someone is radicalized, as ContraPoints discusses in her videos,

787
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 3: it takes a lot of time and effort to undo that.

788
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 3: And it's no surprise that in those years of algorithmic

789
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 3: infinite growth from the highest up at YouTube, the value

790
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 3: of their platform skyrocketed, going from a valuation of one

791
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 3: point seven billion in twenty twelve two fifteen billion in

792
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,439
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, and its value has only continued to rise

793
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 3: from there. Fixing and tweaking the algorithm is good, but

794
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 3: let's not give them a shred of credits. YouTube waited

795
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 3: until bad pr via lawsuits and public pressure made it

796
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 3: advantageous to change their algorithm, certainly not when they first

797
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 3: became aware of it. And remember, as Andrew England said

798
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 3: people in the Manisphere were targeting young men specifically, and

799
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 3: men ages eighteen to forty nine want more YouTube than

800
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 3: they do anything else. I regret to inform you that

801
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 3: we are still in twenty eighteen because another inflection point

802
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 3: in the US for the Manisphere was the Brett Kavanaugh hearings.

803
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 3: I and probably you remember these vividly. I was sitting

804
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 3: next to producer of this show, Sophie Lichterman, at work

805
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 3: during these hearings, as a woman named Christine blasi Ford

806
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:15,280
Speaker 3: came forward to accuse Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh.

807
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 8: I believed he was going to rape me. I tried

808
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 8: to yell for help. When I did, Brett put his

809
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 8: hand over my mouth to stop me from yelling. This

810
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 8: is what terrified me the most and has had the

811
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 8: most lasting impact on my life. It was hard for

812
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,800
Speaker 8: me to breathe, and I thought that Brett was accidentally

813
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 8: going to kill me.

814
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 3: Unlike many aspects of the Me Too movement, most manashre

815
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 3: forum spaces met this moment with unbelievable cruelty, but others,

816
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 3: the just asking questions guys took a slightly softer approach.

817
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 3: Sure it's possible that Brett Kavanaugh is a rapist, but

818
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 3: what if there's some ulterior motive as to why Ford

819
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 3: came forward. Here's Rogan around this time.

820
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,320
Speaker 5: Like I'm fascinated by these Kavanaugh hearings, like I watched

821
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 5: little clips of it before. I just have to tune

822
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:12,479
Speaker 5: out and talk away from Mary talk about fuckery. I mean,

823
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 5: I don't know what that dude did or what he

824
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 5: didn't do, but I think what's happening is more than that.

825
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 3: Again, there's no one way that these spaces approach big

826
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 3: cultural moments like this. Everyone in the media had something

827
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 3: to say about the Kavanaugh hearings, and it remains a

828
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 3: cultural touch point to the extent that a secretly Republican

829
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 3: spinning instructor in Maine jump scared my entire class last

830
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 3: summer when she began to play a Kavanaugh testimony house

831
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 3: music remix. I'm serious, by the way, spinning is that sexy,

832
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 3: weirdly Christian stationary bike thing.

833
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 4: Which I gladly do, in which I fully embrace working.

834
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 11: Out, automatic, whacking out automatic, the Catholic all girls' schools

835
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 11: automatic still is.

836
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 3: I will never understand in any case. The manosphere mocked, harassed,

837
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 3: and doxed Christine Blasi Ford, lamenting that this moment was

838
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 3: yet another example of what feminists were trying to take

839
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 3: from them, which is interesting because Brett Kavanagh was sworn

840
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 3: in and has gone on to vote in such horrific

841
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 3: legislations such as overturning Roe v. Wade, voting yes on

842
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 3: Grant's pass, a recent Supreme Court decision that makes being

843
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 3: unhoused and arrestable offense, and of course the presidential immunity

844
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 3: that I'm sure will not at all benefit his homie

845
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 3: Donald Trump in his upcoming eternity term. And this testimony

846
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 3: came less than a year after the Me Too movement began,

847
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 3: so consider how quickly the public tone changed. The questions

848
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 3: that Christine Blasi Ford endured from an all male Republican

849
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 3: committee pretty closely reflected that of Anita Hill's experience all

850
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 3: the way back in nineteen ninety one, after Hill had

851
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 3: leveraged Alleghani of assault and harassment against Supreme Court Justice

852
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 3: Clarence Thomas. And I'm resisting getting into how mad these

853
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 3: decisions make me, but the point is the institution one here. Yes,

854
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,240
Speaker 3: it was challenged and Ford received a lot of support,

855
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 3: but Kavanaugh was sworn in and went on to enforce

856
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 3: all the far right policies that antagonize anyone less marginalized

857
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 3: than himself as intended. But the minisphere continues to cite

858
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:32,280
Speaker 3: this hearing as a public humiliation. That is a problem.

859
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 3: So why are they doing that. I'm not saying anything

860
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 3: new here, but I firmly believe it's because being called

861
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 3: out for their abuse of women is embarrassing for men.

862
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 3: The aggressor is afraid of being made to feel small,

863
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 3: and the person who is an object to them is

864
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 3: afraid of being killed.

865
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 2: And the more marginalized.

866
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 3: They are, this risk increases. But by this time the

867
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 3: Overton window for the American public.

868
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 2: Had clearly shifted right.

869
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 3: American men pulled before and after the Ford testimony generally

870
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 3: said that women were more likely to scapegoat and harm

871
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 3: the lives of the careers of men than they had

872
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 3: been before. You didn't need to be an active part

873
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 3: of the manisphere to be profoundly affected by it. And

874
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 3: there's more to the manisphere historically that we could get into.

875
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,399
Speaker 3: We could talk about the right leaning or far right

876
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 3: communities that have significant overlap with the manisphere. Flat earthers QAnon.

877
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 3: I could keep going, but we'd be here for six hours,

878
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 3: and I promised this series would be the basics. So

879
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 3: let's get back to Joe Rogan. In twenty twenty, Broken

880
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:43,959
Speaker 3: Show was popular enough to pull the biggest podcast deal

881
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 3: in history, a two hundred million dollar exclusivity deal with

882
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 3: Spotify that quite literally changed the medium forever. Thanks for

883
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 3: fucking nothing, but he was just that big at the time.

884
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 3: He averaged around eleven million listeners in episode across platform

885
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 3: while welcoming guests like Ben Shapiro and Dan Crenshaw and

886
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 3: Tony Hawk. That's nice, but it's no coincidence that Rogan

887
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 3: never had to pivot to video the way that many

888
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:15,439
Speaker 3: podcasts are struggling to now. Rogan was pulling more from

889
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 3: the traditional radio setups that had launched early Manisphere figures

890
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 3: like Rush Limbaugh and seamlessly made it work for a

891
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 3: new technological landscape. Another great example of this is Charlemagne

892
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 3: the Gods blockbuster radio show The Breakfast Club, which began

893
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 3: as a radio show around the same time that Rogan

894
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 3: premiered in twenty ten and then became a nationally syndicated

895
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 3: show in twenty thirteen and expanded to the Internet with

896
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 3: a lot of success, and yes, Charlemagne platforms a lot

897
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 3: of the same misogynist and particularly homophobic and transphobic messaging

898
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 3: that's characteristic across the manisphere.

899
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,280
Speaker 2: What about interns here she said that you make music

900
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 2: for gays, I do. I'm not. The Internet looked at me.

901
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 6: With that nothing, So no, I'm saying now, I mean

902
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 6: it's not specifically for that audience.

903
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 2: You just make music, right.

904
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 3: I guess that was Azalia Banks. We don't have time

905
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 3: and there were plenty of imitators pulling from the Rogan

906
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 3: Charlemagne playbook, including Theo Vaughn, another stand up who hosted

907
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,240
Speaker 3: a string of podcasts over the course of a decade

908
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 3: before he started his own I'm Just a Guy Asking

909
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 3: Questions video podcast to tremendous success. And so by the

910
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 3: time Donald Trump is doing this speed run of I'm

911
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 3: Just Asking question manisphere podcasters in twenty twenty four, UFC

912
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 3: founder Dana White gives a specific list of people to

913
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 3: think in this space during Trump's acceptance event.

914
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 14: I want to thank some people real quick. I want

915
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 14: to thank the Note Boys, Aiden Ross, Theo Vaughn, Bustle

916
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 14: with the Boys, and last but not least the mighty

917
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 14: and powerful Joe Rogan.

918
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 3: And this is fascinating because, based on what I have

919
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 3: learned and talked to other people about, these shows don't

920
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,760
Speaker 3: represent the Manisphere as it's existed in the last ten years,

921
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 3: but rather expands the definition of the Manisphere to include

922
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:24,280
Speaker 3: male dominated, misogyny fueled media spaces that have explicitly endorsed

923
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 3: or share the values of Donald Trump. Trump is now

924
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 3: inextricable from this space, and that would be an inconceivable

925
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 3: way to describe the Manisphere a decade ago, but I

926
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 3: think that that's probably how we'll hear it referred to

927
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 3: moving forward. And all of these men have experienced gaming

928
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 3: the algorithm online. The Nilk Boys began as highly successful prankvloggers,

929
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:51,280
Speaker 3: much like fellow Trump supporters Jake and Logan. Paul Aiden

930
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 3: Ross is a twenty something edge lord gaming streamer who

931
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 3: got booted off Twitch for saying slurs, hosted white supremacist

932
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 3: Nick Quentez on his streams, and is a close personal

933
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 3: friend of Andrew Tate himself. Trump's appearances ranged from the

934
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 3: guys asking questions like Rogan and Theovaughn, to the full

935
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 3: blown extremists like Aiden Ross, and while it's fully possible

936
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 3: that a handful of these guys might be deplatforms someday,

937
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 3: if there's anything that this space has demonstrated to me

938
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 3: is that when one manisphere influencers fall, three pop out

939
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 3: of nowhere to take this fallen figure's place. And when

940
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 3: people talk about building their own Joe Rogan or whatever

941
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 3: the fuck, that's not possible for so many reasons, the

942
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 3: primary of which is that the left just does not

943
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,320
Speaker 3: have the money that the far right does. Taylor Lorenz

944
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 3: made this point explicit in an election post mortem in

945
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,760
Speaker 3: User mag writing, the conservative media landscape in the United

946
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:53,839
Speaker 3: States is exceptionally well funded, meticulously constructed, and highly coordinated.

947
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 3: Wealthy donors, packs and corporations with a vested interest in

948
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 3: preserving or expanding conservative policies strategically invest in right wing

949
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 3: media channels and up and coming content creators. This creates

950
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 3: a well oiled pipeline for conservative influencers. Young TikTokers, YouTubers,

951
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 3: live streamers, or podcasters are discovered, developed, and pushed to

952
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 3: larger platforms, often with the financial backing of conservative billionaires

953
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,960
Speaker 3: or organizations on the right who have long recognized the

954
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 3: content creator industry as a valuable means of shaping public

955
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:29,240
Speaker 3: opinion and policy. Look, I didn't say it was encouraging news.

956
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 3: YouTube remains the most popular place for this, but as

957
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 3: streaming platforms continue to become more successful, so did the

958
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:39,479
Speaker 3: extremists that populate them. Look no further than the top

959
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 3: ten streamers on Twitch the night of the election, with

960
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 3: only one left leaning creator, a snpiker, obviously getting meaningful

961
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 3: numbers while the rest were right wing streams. And if

962
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 3: you get deep platform from Twitch, no problem. There's a

963
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 3: right wing alternative in the form of Kick, where Aidan

964
00:56:56,600 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 3: Ross had to switch to after his third twitchban. So

965
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 3: I know that this was a lot of information, But

966
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,839
Speaker 3: how I see this space moving forward? This new manisphere

967
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 3: is going to exist with a gradient. At its most extreme,

968
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 3: it's full on take the women's right to vote and

969
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 3: get them back in the home style male supremacy, And

970
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 3: at its most mild, it's taking those.

971
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 2: Same people and saying, I don't know, let's hear what

972
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 2: he has to say.

973
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 3: Misogyny will remain the bait because a dismissal of women

974
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 3: has always been generally socially acceptable, and so many creators,

975
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 3: along with the algorithms who push them will essentially test

976
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 3: the waters of someone's ideology by introducing misogyny. Oh you

977
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 3: watched a full video about how the me too movement

978
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 3: went too far? Maybe you'll watch this video, Maybe you'll

979
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 3: join this community.

980
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 2: And it's not said enough. Most won't, but some will.

981
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 3: And the more this content is pushed, the more likely

982
00:57:55,640 --> 00:58:00,120
Speaker 3: it is that young men will give it a try.

983
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 3: So is there any fucking hope of navigating out of this?

984
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 3: On Thursday I will talk to two experts who have

985
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 3: spent years asking that same question. My conversations with ft

986
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 3: Signifier and Robert Evans. Up next on Into the MANI Sphere.

987
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 3: Sixteenth Minute is a production of Whole Zone Media and Iheartwordopps.

988
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 2: It is written, posted, and produced by me Jamie Lostus.

989
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Sophie Lichterman and Robert Evans. The

990
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 3: amazing Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor.

991
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Sad thirteen. Voice acting is

992
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:42,919
Speaker 2: from Grant, Crater and Pet.

993
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 3: Shout outs to our dog producer Anderson, my Kats Flee

994
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 3: and Casper and my pet Rothbert, who will outlive us all.

995
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 2: Bye