1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:20,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is our final show of twenty twenty four, 2 00:00:20,676 --> 00:00:22,636 Speaker 1: and it's a good opportunity for me to thank you 3 00:00:22,676 --> 00:00:25,956 Speaker 1: for listening to and supporting the Happiness Lab. Your support 4 00:00:25,956 --> 00:00:27,996 Speaker 1: means a lot. But you don't have to wait long 5 00:00:28,116 --> 00:00:31,236 Speaker 1: until we're back. On January first, we'll be launching a 6 00:00:31,276 --> 00:00:34,076 Speaker 1: new series for the new year. I'll be doubling down 7 00:00:34,116 --> 00:00:36,876 Speaker 1: on the practical happiness advice. I know you all appreciate. 8 00:00:37,036 --> 00:00:39,356 Speaker 1: We're making a series of how to guides to help 9 00:00:39,396 --> 00:00:43,436 Speaker 1: you joyfully navigate things like relationships, stress, and the messiness 10 00:00:43,436 --> 00:00:45,516 Speaker 1: of our daily lives. By the end of each show, 11 00:00:45,556 --> 00:00:47,516 Speaker 1: you'll have heard at least five tips that you can 12 00:00:47,516 --> 00:00:50,276 Speaker 1: put into action right away, direct from the mouths of 13 00:00:50,316 --> 00:00:54,676 Speaker 1: some of the smartest well being scientists and thinkers. All 14 00:00:54,716 --> 00:01:01,396 Speaker 1: that starting January first. I know you'll love it. But 15 00:01:01,516 --> 00:01:06,796 Speaker 1: right now, the holiday season is here. It's supposed to 16 00:01:06,836 --> 00:01:08,796 Speaker 1: be a time of joy, but way too many of 17 00:01:08,876 --> 00:01:12,476 Speaker 1: us are feeling rushed, stressed, lonely, and even hopeless. What 18 00:01:12,556 --> 00:01:14,876 Speaker 1: are some scientific strategies we can use to have a 19 00:01:14,876 --> 00:01:17,916 Speaker 1: happier holiday season? And can we also get some happiness 20 00:01:17,916 --> 00:01:20,556 Speaker 1: insights from the traditions of the past. These are the 21 00:01:20,636 --> 00:01:22,756 Speaker 1: questions I had a chance to explore with my good 22 00:01:22,756 --> 00:01:26,756 Speaker 1: friend Dave Distello. Dave's a psychology professor at Northeastern University. 23 00:01:26,916 --> 00:01:29,876 Speaker 1: He also hosts a podcast called How God Works, an 24 00:01:29,996 --> 00:01:32,436 Speaker 1: entire show devoted to looking at the wisdom we can 25 00:01:32,476 --> 00:01:35,476 Speaker 1: get from ancient traditions no matter what our own beliefs are. 26 00:01:36,076 --> 00:01:37,676 Speaker 1: Dave and I had a super fun chat on his 27 00:01:37,796 --> 00:01:40,716 Speaker 1: show about how he can put psychological science and ancient 28 00:01:40,756 --> 00:01:44,076 Speaker 1: wisdom into practice this holiday season to feel happier and 29 00:01:44,196 --> 00:01:46,956 Speaker 1: less stressed. So I decided to share that episode with 30 00:01:47,036 --> 00:01:50,036 Speaker 1: you today. It's my holiday gift to you. I hope 31 00:01:50,036 --> 00:01:50,676 Speaker 1: you enjoy it. 32 00:02:06,116 --> 00:02:08,596 Speaker 2: You know that turn of phrase, the dead of winter, 33 00:02:09,476 --> 00:02:13,316 Speaker 2: Well there's a good reason for it. In the northern climes. 34 00:02:13,436 --> 00:02:17,556 Speaker 2: This is the season of death, dark, and dormancy. All 35 00:02:17,596 --> 00:02:20,036 Speaker 2: the color and bounty of the fall harvest is gone. 36 00:02:20,716 --> 00:02:24,756 Speaker 2: Even the sun is disappearing earlier and earlier, and the shorter, 37 00:02:24,876 --> 00:02:28,116 Speaker 2: colder days we're facing lead to a drop in serotonin 38 00:02:28,196 --> 00:02:33,236 Speaker 2: levels and changes to our circadian rhythms. The result feelings 39 00:02:33,276 --> 00:02:38,276 Speaker 2: of stress, gloominess, anxiety, and isolation for many people. And 40 00:02:38,316 --> 00:02:40,396 Speaker 2: as much as we might like to hibernate and sleep, 41 00:02:40,436 --> 00:02:44,556 Speaker 2: away these dark cold months. For us humans, life goes on, 42 00:02:50,836 --> 00:02:53,756 Speaker 2: which is one reason why many northern cultures have come 43 00:02:53,836 --> 00:02:56,796 Speaker 2: up with some of the most festive, cozy, and celebratory 44 00:02:56,836 --> 00:03:00,916 Speaker 2: winter holidays to help get us through. From lighting candles 45 00:03:00,956 --> 00:03:03,796 Speaker 2: to reciting communal prayers and songs, to giving gifts and 46 00:03:03,876 --> 00:03:07,596 Speaker 2: aid to others. Many of these traditions are rooted in religion, 47 00:03:08,356 --> 00:03:10,996 Speaker 2: but there's also reason to believe that these traditions can 48 00:03:10,996 --> 00:03:14,756 Speaker 2: bring comfort and happiness regardless of faith, if you do 49 00:03:14,876 --> 00:03:18,876 Speaker 2: them right. By that, I don't mean reciting the prayer 50 00:03:18,916 --> 00:03:22,876 Speaker 2: correctly or lighting the candles just so, but rather by 51 00:03:22,916 --> 00:03:25,756 Speaker 2: focusing on the heart of the traditions and advice they give, 52 00:03:26,676 --> 00:03:28,756 Speaker 2: which is why I'm so thrilled to have my friend, 53 00:03:28,876 --> 00:03:32,156 Speaker 2: podcast hosts and happiness expert Lori Santos joined me today 54 00:03:32,716 --> 00:03:35,476 Speaker 2: to talk about how and why these time honored holiday 55 00:03:35,476 --> 00:03:38,716 Speaker 2: traditions work on our brains and bodies. And for those 56 00:03:38,756 --> 00:03:41,116 Speaker 2: of us who find the traditions themselves the source of 57 00:03:41,156 --> 00:03:44,436 Speaker 2: worry and stress, we'll find ways to reconnect with the 58 00:03:44,436 --> 00:03:48,076 Speaker 2: good stuff to make this holiday season a brighter, happier 59 00:03:48,116 --> 00:03:54,956 Speaker 2: one for all of us. Hi, Laurie, thanks for coming 60 00:03:54,996 --> 00:03:57,036 Speaker 2: on the show again. Thanks for having me back, and 61 00:03:57,156 --> 00:03:58,116 Speaker 2: happy holidays. 62 00:03:58,276 --> 00:04:00,956 Speaker 1: Happy holidays, Dave, Did you not I don't actually like 63 00:04:00,996 --> 00:04:03,036 Speaker 1: I'm not that into the holidays? Did you know that? One? Yeah? 64 00:04:03,076 --> 00:04:03,316 Speaker 1: I did. 65 00:04:03,356 --> 00:04:05,076 Speaker 2: I was going to ask you because actually you and 66 00:04:05,116 --> 00:04:06,876 Speaker 2: I have been friends for a while, but I didn't 67 00:04:06,876 --> 00:04:08,836 Speaker 2: think I ever asked you for you doing Christmas as 68 00:04:08,836 --> 00:04:09,916 Speaker 2: a child something else. 69 00:04:09,996 --> 00:04:12,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, I grew up with Christmas a little bit Thanksgiving, 70 00:04:12,316 --> 00:04:14,996 Speaker 1: although that wasn't really a big holiday. But my favorite 71 00:04:14,996 --> 00:04:18,076 Speaker 1: one was Halloween. So I'm really into Halloween. You know, 72 00:04:18,116 --> 00:04:21,156 Speaker 1: the costumes, the candy, all the spooky stuff. And when 73 00:04:21,156 --> 00:04:24,116 Speaker 1: November first comes around, I have to work really hard 74 00:04:24,116 --> 00:04:26,116 Speaker 1: to not wind up in a deep depression because, like, 75 00:04:26,276 --> 00:04:29,356 Speaker 1: my favorite holiday is done. When they take off all 76 00:04:29,356 --> 00:04:31,316 Speaker 1: the Halloween stuff and they move the candy out and 77 00:04:31,316 --> 00:04:33,756 Speaker 1: they put the Christmas lights in and the decorations, it's 78 00:04:33,796 --> 00:04:35,076 Speaker 1: a little period of morning for me. 79 00:04:35,836 --> 00:04:38,836 Speaker 2: Well, I think you're not that alone. I mean, the 80 00:04:38,876 --> 00:04:41,396 Speaker 2: surveys show that for a lot of people this time 81 00:04:41,436 --> 00:04:43,916 Speaker 2: of year, even though many say they're looking forward to 82 00:04:43,956 --> 00:04:47,876 Speaker 2: the holiday, is they're also feeling a good bit of stress, sadness, fatigue, 83 00:04:47,916 --> 00:04:51,556 Speaker 2: and even loneliness. So given that you are in some 84 00:04:51,596 --> 00:04:53,756 Speaker 2: ways one of those people. What do you think leads 85 00:04:53,796 --> 00:04:55,516 Speaker 2: to that what makes this time so hard? 86 00:04:55,916 --> 00:04:58,636 Speaker 1: I think part of it is our expectations. I mean, 87 00:04:58,636 --> 00:05:01,556 Speaker 1: they're literally songs jingling on the radio claiming it's the 88 00:05:01,596 --> 00:05:04,876 Speaker 1: most wonderful time of the year. So if you're thinking like, 89 00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:06,236 Speaker 1: this is the kind of time of year when I 90 00:05:06,236 --> 00:05:07,956 Speaker 1: feel little bit lonely, or this is a time of 91 00:05:08,036 --> 00:05:10,236 Speaker 1: year when I feel super whelm because there's just like 92 00:05:10,276 --> 00:05:12,516 Speaker 1: a lot on my plate, you can start to feel 93 00:05:12,516 --> 00:05:14,916 Speaker 1: like you're doing it wrong, there's something wrong with you. 94 00:05:15,996 --> 00:05:18,316 Speaker 1: And so I think that this expectation that it's supposed 95 00:05:18,356 --> 00:05:21,756 Speaker 1: to be the most wonderful can lead us astray. I mean, 96 00:05:21,756 --> 00:05:24,356 Speaker 1: as you know from so much work in behavioral science, 97 00:05:24,396 --> 00:05:28,236 Speaker 1: it's really not the objective way that a situation plays out. 98 00:05:28,236 --> 00:05:31,156 Speaker 1: It's really our expectation that affects how we think about it. 99 00:05:31,196 --> 00:05:35,236 Speaker 1: So if our expectations are really high, even a reasonably good, 100 00:05:35,356 --> 00:05:38,796 Speaker 1: just fine holiday, it can make us feel kind of crappy. 101 00:05:38,596 --> 00:05:41,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, like we're not doing it right. But I recently 102 00:05:41,316 --> 00:05:44,236 Speaker 2: saw a study that piqued my interest, and it was 103 00:05:44,356 --> 00:05:46,996 Speaker 2: looking at people during the holiday season, and what it 104 00:05:47,076 --> 00:05:50,716 Speaker 2: showed is that people who celebrated in the more traditional 105 00:05:50,716 --> 00:05:54,796 Speaker 2: way actually ended up having more positive emotions, higher satisfaction 106 00:05:54,836 --> 00:05:57,716 Speaker 2: with their lives, in greater well being. And so that 107 00:05:57,796 --> 00:06:02,036 Speaker 2: led me to the question of why, what parts of 108 00:06:02,036 --> 00:06:04,596 Speaker 2: these traditions boost happiness and what can we learn from that, 109 00:06:04,756 --> 00:06:08,516 Speaker 2: whatever our beliefs might be. And that my friend is 110 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:09,316 Speaker 2: where you kind of in. 111 00:06:09,556 --> 00:06:11,796 Speaker 1: Its not my deep patriot of the holiday season. It's 112 00:06:11,796 --> 00:06:13,556 Speaker 1: my deep knowledge or real science. 113 00:06:13,596 --> 00:06:17,476 Speaker 2: And yeah, yes, yes, but sometimes coming from a place 114 00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:19,396 Speaker 2: where it wasn't working and learning how to put it 115 00:06:19,396 --> 00:06:21,876 Speaker 2: into practice along with that science is really important because 116 00:06:21,876 --> 00:06:25,796 Speaker 2: as we all know, having the goal is important, but 117 00:06:26,116 --> 00:06:28,876 Speaker 2: understanding how to actually make it a practice and not 118 00:06:28,996 --> 00:06:30,676 Speaker 2: just a goal is what really matters. 119 00:06:30,876 --> 00:06:32,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is actually something that I've been putting 120 00:06:32,756 --> 00:06:35,116 Speaker 1: into effect in my own life. Given that I don't 121 00:06:35,156 --> 00:06:37,556 Speaker 1: like the holidays, what can I do to make them 122 00:06:37,756 --> 00:06:40,316 Speaker 1: a little bit happier? Find my own rituals and so on. 123 00:06:41,076 --> 00:06:43,676 Speaker 2: Let me start with one thing that often I think 124 00:06:43,956 --> 00:06:46,916 Speaker 2: gets in my way in the holidays, all the rushing 125 00:06:46,996 --> 00:06:51,676 Speaker 2: that we do. No, it almost feels like a frenzy 126 00:06:51,676 --> 00:06:54,876 Speaker 2: to prepare. It's like shop, cook, write cards, and then 127 00:06:54,956 --> 00:06:57,636 Speaker 2: wrap and shop some more. And even though I know 128 00:06:57,636 --> 00:07:00,876 Speaker 2: I'm supposed to be enjoying the season, I'm not really 129 00:07:00,916 --> 00:07:02,596 Speaker 2: doing it. As I go along, I keep saying, when 130 00:07:02,636 --> 00:07:05,116 Speaker 2: this is done, I will have time to be happy. 131 00:07:05,156 --> 00:07:06,716 Speaker 2: When this is done, I'll be happy, And then it's 132 00:07:06,716 --> 00:07:08,916 Speaker 2: like the day after Christmas, and I'm like, where did 133 00:07:08,956 --> 00:07:10,996 Speaker 2: it all go? Yeah? 134 00:07:11,036 --> 00:07:12,636 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's lots of studies on this, 135 00:07:12,796 --> 00:07:16,156 Speaker 1: just broadly in the field of happiness science. This bias 136 00:07:16,196 --> 00:07:18,716 Speaker 1: that researchers called the arrival fallacy. It's kind of like, 137 00:07:18,756 --> 00:07:21,356 Speaker 1: I'll be happy when, right, I'll be happy when I 138 00:07:21,436 --> 00:07:23,676 Speaker 1: just get through all the shopping and we can get 139 00:07:23,676 --> 00:07:25,756 Speaker 1: to the actual day where we open the Presence, Or 140 00:07:25,756 --> 00:07:28,116 Speaker 1: I'll be happy when New Year's rolls around and I'm 141 00:07:28,156 --> 00:07:30,876 Speaker 1: through all the work parties. Right, We're kind of constantly 142 00:07:30,916 --> 00:07:33,916 Speaker 1: sort of fast forwarding like this moment where we can 143 00:07:33,956 --> 00:07:36,436 Speaker 1: take a breath and stick around and safer and notice 144 00:07:36,476 --> 00:07:38,836 Speaker 1: all the good stuff. And of course, as you might imagine, 145 00:07:38,876 --> 00:07:41,556 Speaker 1: that arrival fallacy messes us up for a couple of reasons. 146 00:07:41,636 --> 00:07:44,076 Speaker 1: One is that we're not enjoying the journey as we 147 00:07:44,116 --> 00:07:46,356 Speaker 1: go through. So these moments that could be kind of 148 00:07:46,596 --> 00:07:49,196 Speaker 1: fun when you're shopping and hearing the cool music and 149 00:07:49,236 --> 00:07:51,596 Speaker 1: seeing people and enjoying the bustle. There's a kind of 150 00:07:51,956 --> 00:07:54,356 Speaker 1: really richness to that that we could get into. We're 151 00:07:54,396 --> 00:07:56,156 Speaker 1: not doing that because we're just like fast forward until 152 00:07:56,196 --> 00:07:57,876 Speaker 1: we get that done and go on to the next thing. 153 00:07:58,276 --> 00:08:00,476 Speaker 1: And so it means that we're missing these moments of 154 00:08:00,556 --> 00:08:03,076 Speaker 1: joy along the way that we're not paying attention to. 155 00:08:03,716 --> 00:08:05,956 Speaker 1: But the second reason that falling prey to this arrival 156 00:08:05,956 --> 00:08:08,356 Speaker 1: fallacy is so bad is that we tend to get 157 00:08:08,356 --> 00:08:11,836 Speaker 1: these predictions wrong. Christmas morning, with my family sitting under 158 00:08:11,836 --> 00:08:13,516 Speaker 1: the tree, we think when I get there, I'll be 159 00:08:13,556 --> 00:08:16,676 Speaker 1: so happy, But we're forecasting that that's going to feel 160 00:08:16,876 --> 00:08:19,476 Speaker 1: really awesome, and in fact it's going to have its 161 00:08:19,516 --> 00:08:21,796 Speaker 1: problems too, Right, maybe it's kind of cold out, or 162 00:08:21,796 --> 00:08:24,316 Speaker 1: I didn't get the gift. I like, very few people 163 00:08:24,556 --> 00:08:27,316 Speaker 1: have the privilege of having a holiday that goes swimmingly 164 00:08:27,356 --> 00:08:30,516 Speaker 1: across all those expectations. It's going to actually have its 165 00:08:30,556 --> 00:08:33,396 Speaker 1: like little bumps, and so inevitably we wind up kind 166 00:08:33,396 --> 00:08:35,596 Speaker 1: of fast forwarding to this time that we're forecasting is 167 00:08:35,636 --> 00:08:37,916 Speaker 1: going to be super perfect but might not be as 168 00:08:37,916 --> 00:08:39,876 Speaker 1: perfect as we think, And then we wind up having 169 00:08:40,116 --> 00:08:41,916 Speaker 1: missed out on the stuff we should have been enjoying 170 00:08:41,916 --> 00:08:42,476 Speaker 1: along the way. 171 00:08:42,836 --> 00:08:44,636 Speaker 2: But when I was a kid, and I see this 172 00:08:44,836 --> 00:08:48,596 Speaker 2: in lots of young kids, it's what's the next present? 173 00:08:48,836 --> 00:08:51,076 Speaker 2: And I open it and I look at it and 174 00:08:51,076 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 2: I'm like thanks, and I throw it to the side, 175 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:55,356 Speaker 2: and then what's the next present? Do you have any 176 00:08:55,396 --> 00:08:59,716 Speaker 2: advice for getting really excited kids to savor during the holidays? 177 00:09:00,116 --> 00:09:02,716 Speaker 1: Well, in some ways, you're like asking the wrong person, 178 00:09:02,796 --> 00:09:04,596 Speaker 1: because when I was a kid, and even in my 179 00:09:04,676 --> 00:09:07,076 Speaker 1: family now, you get the presence and everybody just like 180 00:09:07,236 --> 00:09:09,356 Speaker 1: rips them open like you're in your own little me, 181 00:09:09,436 --> 00:09:12,436 Speaker 1: me me world. And when I first went to the 182 00:09:12,476 --> 00:09:14,876 Speaker 1: holidays at my in law's family, which you go to 183 00:09:14,996 --> 00:09:17,836 Speaker 1: my husband Mark in Iowa, they had this tradition that 184 00:09:17,916 --> 00:09:21,596 Speaker 1: was so incredibly foreign to me where they waited and 185 00:09:21,676 --> 00:09:24,396 Speaker 1: went around the room and everybody opened one present at 186 00:09:24,396 --> 00:09:26,396 Speaker 1: a time. And it was so funny to me how 187 00:09:26,516 --> 00:09:28,236 Speaker 1: like I was like ready to rip in and he 188 00:09:28,276 --> 00:09:29,796 Speaker 1: was kind of looking at you, like, Laurie, like Mom's 189 00:09:29,796 --> 00:09:32,636 Speaker 1: opening your present, just wait, and I'm like oh, And 190 00:09:32,676 --> 00:09:36,156 Speaker 1: it winds up being a very long procedure, which kind of, 191 00:09:36,276 --> 00:09:39,196 Speaker 1: you know, was really hard for my normal temporal discounting 192 00:09:39,236 --> 00:09:41,196 Speaker 1: where I kind of wanted to open my presence right away, 193 00:09:41,596 --> 00:09:43,636 Speaker 1: but they turn it into like a really day long 194 00:09:43,676 --> 00:09:46,116 Speaker 1: event and we kind of open present, so we talk 195 00:09:46,156 --> 00:09:48,916 Speaker 1: about each present and we go through. But for kids, 196 00:09:48,916 --> 00:09:51,436 Speaker 1: I think you need to get creative about the rituals 197 00:09:51,476 --> 00:09:54,196 Speaker 1: of this right and so that can be having something 198 00:09:54,196 --> 00:09:57,556 Speaker 1: that happens in between every present. Maybe people have to 199 00:09:57,596 --> 00:10:00,196 Speaker 1: comment on presents, you have to say one thing you're 200 00:10:00,236 --> 00:10:03,036 Speaker 1: grateful for in between every present, or you know, you 201 00:10:03,076 --> 00:10:04,796 Speaker 1: need to share a delight that you have at the 202 00:10:04,876 --> 00:10:07,916 Speaker 1: end of the day throughout the holiday season, and sometimes 203 00:10:07,916 --> 00:10:10,076 Speaker 1: you'll find that even when you're struggling to figure this 204 00:10:10,076 --> 00:10:13,476 Speaker 1: stuff out, if you give them a new tradition, especially 205 00:10:13,476 --> 00:10:16,436 Speaker 1: little kids, they sometimes really get into it. And for 206 00:10:16,556 --> 00:10:19,516 Speaker 1: many parents, I think seeing the holiday season through the 207 00:10:19,516 --> 00:10:21,636 Speaker 1: eyes of a kid, if you can help that kid 208 00:10:21,716 --> 00:10:24,676 Speaker 1: articulate the things that they're savoring, that can be so 209 00:10:24,796 --> 00:10:26,236 Speaker 1: good for your own positive emotion. 210 00:10:26,516 --> 00:10:28,516 Speaker 2: But that's a really important point that I didn't think of, 211 00:10:28,556 --> 00:10:30,356 Speaker 2: because if you do it that way, and if you 212 00:10:30,436 --> 00:10:34,556 Speaker 2: reflect on it that way, that's the opportunity for the 213 00:10:34,596 --> 00:10:37,796 Speaker 2: savoring and for the gratitude. 214 00:10:37,596 --> 00:10:40,236 Speaker 1: Exactly and so I think whatever you can do to 215 00:10:40,276 --> 00:10:46,796 Speaker 1: sort of extend it out can be really powerful. 216 00:10:47,156 --> 00:10:49,076 Speaker 2: It's interesting because when I look at many of the 217 00:10:49,636 --> 00:10:55,276 Speaker 2: traditional celebrations, they were usually multi day. In the Christian tradition, 218 00:10:55,396 --> 00:10:59,516 Speaker 2: there's Advent, you know, four weeks before when people come together, 219 00:10:59,636 --> 00:11:03,516 Speaker 2: do crafts together, pray together, eat together. And Hanukkah there 220 00:11:03,556 --> 00:11:07,836 Speaker 2: are eight days of families coming together, and Mule it's twelve. 221 00:11:08,876 --> 00:11:12,676 Speaker 2: I think they just give you more opportunities to savor. 222 00:11:12,876 --> 00:11:15,916 Speaker 2: And right now in the US, at least, we've kind 223 00:11:15,956 --> 00:11:18,676 Speaker 2: of made Christmas one day and it's the be all 224 00:11:18,916 --> 00:11:22,156 Speaker 2: and the end, all right, So if we're trying to 225 00:11:22,196 --> 00:11:26,196 Speaker 2: think this season about how to take more time to 226 00:11:26,276 --> 00:11:29,076 Speaker 2: save her, to not fall prey to the arrival fallacy, 227 00:11:29,436 --> 00:11:30,116 Speaker 2: what should we do? 228 00:11:30,836 --> 00:11:33,316 Speaker 1: So one of my favorite suggestions, which I actually learned 229 00:11:33,356 --> 00:11:35,396 Speaker 1: from Liz Dunn, she's a professor at the University of 230 00:11:35,396 --> 00:11:39,956 Speaker 1: British Columbia. She actually suggested harnessing our pro social emotions 231 00:11:40,076 --> 00:11:43,236 Speaker 1: to save her more. One of the things she suggests 232 00:11:43,316 --> 00:11:45,876 Speaker 1: is to give your savoring as a gift to someone. 233 00:11:46,196 --> 00:11:48,756 Speaker 1: So what does she mean, Let's say it's a holiday event. 234 00:11:48,796 --> 00:11:52,236 Speaker 1: I'm making genderbread houses with my niece and it's messy. 235 00:11:52,396 --> 00:11:54,836 Speaker 1: I'm feeling a little frustrated. But if I was thinking 236 00:11:54,876 --> 00:11:57,276 Speaker 1: pro socially about what I would want to give my niece, 237 00:11:57,436 --> 00:11:59,796 Speaker 1: I would say, let me try to be fully present 238 00:12:00,076 --> 00:12:01,676 Speaker 1: and have a really good time. This is going to 239 00:12:01,716 --> 00:12:03,436 Speaker 1: turn into a fun memory that she's going to look 240 00:12:03,476 --> 00:12:06,356 Speaker 1: back at later. Right. In some ways, I'm not savoring 241 00:12:06,396 --> 00:12:08,076 Speaker 1: for me because it's going to help my journey in 242 00:12:08,116 --> 00:12:11,556 Speaker 1: the holiday season, I'm savoring for my niece, or you know, 243 00:12:11,596 --> 00:12:15,316 Speaker 1: a different holiday version. Sometimes family tensions can come off, 244 00:12:15,396 --> 00:12:16,836 Speaker 1: but it's like, you know what, I'm going to engage 245 00:12:16,876 --> 00:12:19,236 Speaker 1: in this holiday event with no tension. I'm just going 246 00:12:19,276 --> 00:12:20,556 Speaker 1: to shut all that off so that we can have 247 00:12:20,596 --> 00:12:22,356 Speaker 1: a good time. And that's the gift to my mom. 248 00:12:22,636 --> 00:12:24,876 Speaker 1: Even when savoring is hard for us, if we're setting 249 00:12:24,876 --> 00:12:26,996 Speaker 1: this up as a gift for somebody else, help. 250 00:12:27,436 --> 00:12:30,436 Speaker 2: What that suggests in some ways is that presence is 251 00:12:30,476 --> 00:12:35,076 Speaker 2: a shared experience. And what we're learning more and more 252 00:12:35,196 --> 00:12:39,556 Speaker 2: from behavioral science is that experiences in some ways matter 253 00:12:39,676 --> 00:12:41,956 Speaker 2: more than material goods for happiness. Right. 254 00:12:42,236 --> 00:12:44,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, And I think this is something we 255 00:12:44,276 --> 00:12:46,996 Speaker 1: can really get wrong, especially in the holiday season. We 256 00:12:47,036 --> 00:12:49,556 Speaker 1: get obsessed with kind of giving a particular thing. But 257 00:12:49,876 --> 00:12:51,796 Speaker 1: what we know from a lot of the behavioral science 258 00:12:51,836 --> 00:12:54,956 Speaker 1: and happiness field, does material possessions just don't really increase 259 00:12:54,996 --> 00:12:57,276 Speaker 1: our happiness as much as we think, or definitely for 260 00:12:57,316 --> 00:12:59,916 Speaker 1: as long as we think, we'd be much better thinking 261 00:12:59,956 --> 00:13:04,156 Speaker 1: about gifts of experiences, whether that's something we literally give somebody, 262 00:13:04,196 --> 00:13:06,796 Speaker 1: you know, give somebody a gift card for going to 263 00:13:06,876 --> 00:13:09,596 Speaker 1: a cool new restaurant, or a gift hard to take 264 00:13:09,636 --> 00:13:12,436 Speaker 1: a course online, but it can also be the experiences 265 00:13:12,476 --> 00:13:15,276 Speaker 1: we give people during the holiday season when we're present 266 00:13:15,316 --> 00:13:17,596 Speaker 1: with them. One of the cool things about the holiday 267 00:13:17,596 --> 00:13:19,916 Speaker 1: season that we forget is it's one of the few 268 00:13:19,996 --> 00:13:23,196 Speaker 1: times of year that we kind of all are in 269 00:13:23,316 --> 00:13:26,676 Speaker 1: the same groove. People have time off for the major 270 00:13:26,716 --> 00:13:29,076 Speaker 1: holidays and New Years and so on. It's a time 271 00:13:29,116 --> 00:13:32,196 Speaker 1: that we can kind of like connect together even though 272 00:13:32,196 --> 00:13:34,276 Speaker 1: we're all busy, like we're all sort of going through 273 00:13:34,316 --> 00:13:35,956 Speaker 1: it together. And so I think it's really a time 274 00:13:35,956 --> 00:13:38,876 Speaker 1: where we can harness social connection to feel a little 275 00:13:38,876 --> 00:13:39,436 Speaker 1: bit healthier. 276 00:13:42,996 --> 00:13:44,956 Speaker 2: But I want to get back to the gifts because 277 00:13:44,956 --> 00:13:46,996 Speaker 2: in some ways that is such a big part of 278 00:13:47,036 --> 00:13:49,076 Speaker 2: the holiday season. You know, you and I can talk 279 00:13:49,076 --> 00:13:51,396 Speaker 2: about this and people can say yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 280 00:13:51,396 --> 00:13:54,156 Speaker 2: where's my present? For many people, as you said, this 281 00:13:54,196 --> 00:13:56,236 Speaker 2: can seem like one of the most stressful parts of 282 00:13:56,276 --> 00:13:58,316 Speaker 2: the holidays. I've got to get this from my kids, 283 00:13:58,316 --> 00:13:59,956 Speaker 2: I've got to get this from my coworkers, my great 284 00:13:59,996 --> 00:14:02,076 Speaker 2: aunt Jenny, she hates everything. What am I going to get? 285 00:14:02,156 --> 00:14:05,276 Speaker 2: Hur But in reality, you know, I think the reason 286 00:14:05,356 --> 00:14:08,116 Speaker 2: many of these traditions remind us to give gifts isn't 287 00:14:08,196 --> 00:14:11,036 Speaker 2: just to make other people happy, but to let us 288 00:14:11,076 --> 00:14:14,716 Speaker 2: realize that the act of giving itself brings us joy 289 00:14:15,116 --> 00:14:17,916 Speaker 2: and happiness. So what does the science of happiness tell 290 00:14:17,996 --> 00:14:22,196 Speaker 2: us about giving to other people, whether it's spending money 291 00:14:22,196 --> 00:14:25,116 Speaker 2: on them or giving them our time. 292 00:14:26,156 --> 00:14:28,316 Speaker 1: Well, the evidence here is super clear, which is that 293 00:14:28,916 --> 00:14:31,396 Speaker 1: doing for others is one of the fastest ways to 294 00:14:31,476 --> 00:14:34,396 Speaker 1: make ourselves happy. And I think this is something our 295 00:14:34,436 --> 00:14:36,796 Speaker 1: culture gets wrong a lot. It shifts a little bit 296 00:14:36,836 --> 00:14:38,876 Speaker 1: in the holiday season where it's the sort of season 297 00:14:38,916 --> 00:14:41,356 Speaker 1: of giving, but even in the season of giving, and 298 00:14:41,396 --> 00:14:43,116 Speaker 1: definitely for the rest of the year, it feels like 299 00:14:43,156 --> 00:14:44,916 Speaker 1: we're not in the season of giving, We're in the 300 00:14:44,916 --> 00:14:47,436 Speaker 1: season of self care or treating ourselves right. 301 00:14:47,596 --> 00:14:52,436 Speaker 3: Treat yourself in a time that you gave yourself to 302 00:14:52,756 --> 00:14:55,676 Speaker 3: break your head, trade yourself. 303 00:14:56,196 --> 00:14:58,156 Speaker 1: I mean even in the holiday season, you can look 304 00:14:58,236 --> 00:14:59,636 Speaker 1: to these sort of self help books, which is like 305 00:14:59,636 --> 00:15:01,876 Speaker 1: how to get self care during the season of giving right, 306 00:15:01,916 --> 00:15:04,436 Speaker 1: it's all about us. So controlled for the amount of 307 00:15:04,436 --> 00:15:06,956 Speaker 1: income people have, people who donate more money to charity 308 00:15:07,036 --> 00:15:09,276 Speaker 1: or happier than those that tend to not do need 309 00:15:09,356 --> 00:15:11,516 Speaker 1: as much money to charity. Controlled for the amount of 310 00:15:11,556 --> 00:15:13,916 Speaker 1: free time people have, people who volunteer their time to 311 00:15:13,916 --> 00:15:16,836 Speaker 1: support others wind up being happier than those that keep 312 00:15:16,876 --> 00:15:19,876 Speaker 1: their time to themselves. And in studies where you force 313 00:15:19,956 --> 00:15:22,276 Speaker 1: people to do nice stuff for others, you wind up 314 00:15:22,276 --> 00:15:24,676 Speaker 1: finding that even forcing somebody to do nice things for 315 00:15:24,676 --> 00:15:28,636 Speaker 1: others makes them feel happier. One of my favorite of 316 00:15:28,676 --> 00:15:30,196 Speaker 1: these studies is based on some of the work of 317 00:15:30,236 --> 00:15:32,836 Speaker 1: Liz done She and Lara Acknin. They just walk up 318 00:15:32,836 --> 00:15:34,996 Speaker 1: to people on the street and hand them twenty bucks. Here, 319 00:15:35,036 --> 00:15:36,756 Speaker 1: I want you to spend this twenty bucks to do 320 00:15:36,796 --> 00:15:39,556 Speaker 1: something nice to treat yourself, that's one condition. Or here 321 00:15:39,556 --> 00:15:41,236 Speaker 1: I want you to spend these twenty bucks to do 322 00:15:41,316 --> 00:15:43,436 Speaker 1: something nice for somebody else. You could donate this money 323 00:15:43,436 --> 00:15:45,396 Speaker 1: to charity, you could buy something nice for a friend. 324 00:15:45,476 --> 00:15:46,796 Speaker 1: And what Liz finds is at the end of the 325 00:15:46,876 --> 00:15:49,236 Speaker 1: day and even later on when she surveys people, people 326 00:15:49,276 --> 00:15:52,596 Speaker 1: who spend the money on others are happier. Now, this 327 00:15:52,756 --> 00:15:56,556 Speaker 1: is an effect that really violates our intuitions. I think generally, 328 00:15:56,676 --> 00:15:59,076 Speaker 1: anything we can do that has a positive effect on 329 00:15:59,116 --> 00:16:02,996 Speaker 1: other people winds up increasing both their happiness and our 330 00:16:03,116 --> 00:16:06,916 Speaker 1: happiness more than we expect. Nick Epley, who's a professor 331 00:16:06,916 --> 00:16:09,396 Speaker 1: at the University of Chicago, has this great term for this. 332 00:16:09,476 --> 00:16:12,876 Speaker 1: He calls it under sociality or alternatively, he sometimes calls 333 00:16:12,916 --> 00:16:15,516 Speaker 1: it the pro sociality paradox. We kind of know that 334 00:16:15,556 --> 00:16:17,276 Speaker 1: doing nice stuff for others is going to be good, 335 00:16:17,516 --> 00:16:20,596 Speaker 1: but we completely underestimate how good it's going to feel 336 00:16:20,876 --> 00:16:22,876 Speaker 1: both for the other person. Nick has at least all 337 00:16:22,916 --> 00:16:25,516 Speaker 1: this evidence showing that, like if you predict, say how 338 00:16:25,516 --> 00:16:27,876 Speaker 1: good a compliment will feel to a stranger on the street, 339 00:16:27,996 --> 00:16:30,196 Speaker 1: or kind of you know, giving a like little gift 340 00:16:30,196 --> 00:16:32,196 Speaker 1: of coffee if you're the coffee shop buying the coffee, 341 00:16:32,236 --> 00:16:34,436 Speaker 1: you know, for the person behind you, we predict it's 342 00:16:34,436 --> 00:16:38,436 Speaker 1: gonna be good, but we consistently super underestimate how good 343 00:16:38,636 --> 00:16:41,636 Speaker 1: both for the other person but also for us. And 344 00:16:41,716 --> 00:16:44,516 Speaker 1: those biases are really problematic because if you think about 345 00:16:44,836 --> 00:16:46,796 Speaker 1: when do we make these decisions to do nice things 346 00:16:46,836 --> 00:16:49,396 Speaker 1: for other people, it's usually because we have a prediction 347 00:16:49,476 --> 00:16:51,276 Speaker 1: about them, right. You know, my brain has this little 348 00:16:51,316 --> 00:16:54,156 Speaker 1: mental calculator that's assessing, like, well, should I buy the 349 00:16:54,356 --> 00:16:56,276 Speaker 1: latte for myself or should I give the latte to 350 00:16:56,316 --> 00:16:59,396 Speaker 1: the person behind me? And if you're predicting like well, 351 00:16:59,396 --> 00:17:01,596 Speaker 1: for myself, it's going to feel great, You're usually going 352 00:17:01,676 --> 00:17:04,516 Speaker 1: to act on the basis of that false prediction. And 353 00:17:04,556 --> 00:17:07,076 Speaker 1: that's why I think these religious traditions can be so 354 00:17:07,196 --> 00:17:10,836 Speaker 1: helpful because they force to develop habits of doing that. 355 00:17:10,916 --> 00:17:13,436 Speaker 1: You know, you just kind of build in charity etched 356 00:17:13,436 --> 00:17:16,076 Speaker 1: into the belief system that you're working with, or they 357 00:17:16,116 --> 00:17:18,316 Speaker 1: allow us to form habits where we get some experience 358 00:17:18,356 --> 00:17:20,476 Speaker 1: with this, right, so we get practiced with it over time. 359 00:17:20,516 --> 00:17:22,436 Speaker 1: I mean, we can learn like, well, even though my 360 00:17:22,436 --> 00:17:25,356 Speaker 1: intuition says this, you know, last time I donated the 361 00:17:25,396 --> 00:17:27,156 Speaker 1: money to charity when I had a little extra and 362 00:17:27,156 --> 00:17:29,476 Speaker 1: I was feeling bad, it felt kind of nice. So 363 00:17:29,516 --> 00:17:31,516 Speaker 1: maybe I should do that again. And so I think 364 00:17:31,596 --> 00:17:33,756 Speaker 1: it's helpful to have these structures to help us. 365 00:17:34,796 --> 00:17:38,636 Speaker 2: One thing that I learn is that the fifth night 366 00:17:38,876 --> 00:17:41,956 Speaker 2: of Hanukkah is focused on giving to others outside of 367 00:17:41,996 --> 00:17:45,196 Speaker 2: the family. And actually children are encouraged to give gifts too, 368 00:17:45,236 --> 00:17:47,876 Speaker 2: So it's not only that they're receiving, but whether they're 369 00:17:47,876 --> 00:17:52,396 Speaker 2: given money or they buy toys, they're encouraged to basically 370 00:17:52,476 --> 00:17:56,116 Speaker 2: give it to other people, other children and buy that 371 00:17:56,196 --> 00:17:59,036 Speaker 2: act they're basically less done study in some way exactly 372 00:17:59,196 --> 00:18:02,276 Speaker 2: and learning that. And again, right, here's where I think 373 00:18:02,356 --> 00:18:05,476 Speaker 2: we see some of the wisdom of these spiritual traditions 374 00:18:05,476 --> 00:18:07,916 Speaker 2: and these holidays that are all about giving. I think 375 00:18:07,956 --> 00:18:10,076 Speaker 2: part of it is sometimes you have to actually have 376 00:18:10,156 --> 00:18:14,716 Speaker 2: the experience to realize that that all the data we're 377 00:18:14,716 --> 00:18:17,516 Speaker 2: talking about actually is true and means something to you. 378 00:18:20,516 --> 00:18:26,676 Speaker 2: But it's not just money, right, it's giving of yourself, time, care, 379 00:18:27,476 --> 00:18:30,756 Speaker 2: reaching out, whatever it might be. Is it true that 380 00:18:30,876 --> 00:18:34,156 Speaker 2: engaging in service to others outside of the giving of 381 00:18:34,196 --> 00:18:36,236 Speaker 2: money has the same effect for sure? 382 00:18:36,276 --> 00:18:38,156 Speaker 1: And I think when you see the phrase service to others, 383 00:18:38,196 --> 00:18:40,516 Speaker 1: it almost feels like, well, I got to pack my 384 00:18:40,516 --> 00:18:42,636 Speaker 1: bags and go to the soup kitchen for like ten hour. 385 00:18:42,796 --> 00:18:45,036 Speaker 1: You know, no a service to others can look like 386 00:18:45,396 --> 00:18:47,516 Speaker 1: texting a friend you haven't talked to in a while 387 00:18:47,516 --> 00:18:49,796 Speaker 1: and just saying, hey, thinking of you. It can be 388 00:18:49,836 --> 00:18:52,436 Speaker 1: giving a compliment to someone on the street. It can 389 00:18:52,476 --> 00:18:55,836 Speaker 1: be expressing gratitude to someone in your workplace who did 390 00:18:55,836 --> 00:18:57,876 Speaker 1: something really great. It can even be, and I think 391 00:18:57,916 --> 00:18:59,916 Speaker 1: this is super important to remember in the holiday season, 392 00:19:00,076 --> 00:19:03,236 Speaker 1: it can even be asking for help, because the act 393 00:19:03,276 --> 00:19:06,436 Speaker 1: of asking for help often let somebody do something nice 394 00:19:06,436 --> 00:19:08,836 Speaker 1: for you. One of my favorite examples of this is 395 00:19:08,876 --> 00:19:11,236 Speaker 1: think to the last time you're walking around and someone 396 00:19:11,276 --> 00:19:14,036 Speaker 1: asked you for directions, especially directions to somewhere you knew. 397 00:19:14,436 --> 00:19:16,756 Speaker 1: How did you feel about that. You're like, yes, I 398 00:19:16,756 --> 00:19:18,636 Speaker 1: get to do this nice thing. I get to show 399 00:19:18,756 --> 00:19:21,596 Speaker 1: my knowledge, like I'm helping this person. Like you got 400 00:19:21,636 --> 00:19:25,476 Speaker 1: asked for something, but you felt great. And that's typically true. 401 00:19:25,476 --> 00:19:27,836 Speaker 1: When people ask us for stuff, especially stuff that's pretty 402 00:19:27,836 --> 00:19:30,196 Speaker 1: easy for us to do, it winds up making us 403 00:19:30,236 --> 00:19:33,476 Speaker 1: feel really good. And so during the holiday season, when 404 00:19:33,476 --> 00:19:37,476 Speaker 1: you're feeling overwhelmed, think about the possibility of, like asking 405 00:19:37,476 --> 00:19:40,156 Speaker 1: a family member for help. It's such a simple action, 406 00:19:40,316 --> 00:19:43,436 Speaker 1: but it makes other people feel competent and gives them 407 00:19:43,476 --> 00:19:46,436 Speaker 1: the benefit of helping you, and then everybody kind of 408 00:19:46,596 --> 00:19:48,716 Speaker 1: winds up feeling happier. It kind of boosts the overall 409 00:19:48,756 --> 00:19:51,396 Speaker 1: pie of good cheer in the holiday season in ways 410 00:19:51,396 --> 00:19:52,316 Speaker 1: we don't anticipate. 411 00:20:18,516 --> 00:20:21,396 Speaker 2: As Laurie said, every active giving doesn't have to be 412 00:20:21,436 --> 00:20:25,196 Speaker 2: a major project. In fact, when time is short, like 413 00:20:25,236 --> 00:20:28,356 Speaker 2: it often is at the holidays, finding simpler ways to 414 00:20:28,396 --> 00:20:30,636 Speaker 2: help others might be what makes those good deeds not 415 00:20:30,836 --> 00:20:35,916 Speaker 2: just more possible, but also more enjoyable. And that idea 416 00:20:35,916 --> 00:20:39,156 Speaker 2: of scaling down, of not being the person who's got 417 00:20:39,196 --> 00:20:43,396 Speaker 2: everything together and does everything perfectly can apply in other 418 00:20:43,436 --> 00:20:44,916 Speaker 2: ways too. 419 00:20:45,116 --> 00:20:48,236 Speaker 1: We recently just talked to the writer Oliver Berkman for 420 00:20:48,356 --> 00:20:50,956 Speaker 1: my podcast, who has a really great new book on 421 00:20:51,076 --> 00:20:54,596 Speaker 1: the idea of imperfectionism, where what would it look like 422 00:20:54,716 --> 00:20:57,316 Speaker 1: to kind of do things a little bit less good 423 00:20:57,356 --> 00:20:59,556 Speaker 1: in ways that allow you to not feel so overwhelmed 424 00:20:59,596 --> 00:21:01,756 Speaker 1: so you can be present and happy during the season. 425 00:21:02,196 --> 00:21:05,196 Speaker 1: And he had this notion that I loved of scruffy hospitality, 426 00:21:05,996 --> 00:21:08,116 Speaker 1: where the ideas like if you go to the holiday 427 00:21:08,156 --> 00:21:10,836 Speaker 1: party and the cookies really done yet, and like everything's 428 00:21:10,876 --> 00:21:12,276 Speaker 1: kind of a little bit of a mess, and the 429 00:21:12,276 --> 00:21:13,996 Speaker 1: host is like, hey, can you kind of help frost 430 00:21:14,116 --> 00:21:16,516 Speaker 1: those little sugar cookies because I need some help. You 431 00:21:16,556 --> 00:21:18,756 Speaker 1: feel like you're seeing a vulnerable side of the people 432 00:21:18,796 --> 00:21:21,556 Speaker 1: you're interacting with, and you are comfortable. But you know, 433 00:21:21,596 --> 00:21:23,996 Speaker 1: sometimes you go to that holiday dinner party and it's 434 00:21:24,076 --> 00:21:27,396 Speaker 1: like perfect, It's got the kindles and everything set up, 435 00:21:27,756 --> 00:21:29,716 Speaker 1: and how do you interact if you're a guest there, 436 00:21:29,756 --> 00:21:31,596 Speaker 1: you kind of feel a little maybe on edge or 437 00:21:31,596 --> 00:21:33,556 Speaker 1: should I hit my shoes off? Like I put my 438 00:21:33,636 --> 00:21:35,836 Speaker 1: napkin in the right spot. If you go with the 439 00:21:35,836 --> 00:21:39,476 Speaker 1: scruffy version, you personally don't feel as overwhelmed when you're 440 00:21:39,556 --> 00:21:41,156 Speaker 1: running your own dinner parties and so on. 441 00:21:41,276 --> 00:21:43,756 Speaker 2: You are absolutely I've had this experience with people I know, 442 00:21:43,916 --> 00:21:45,636 Speaker 2: and I've gone to these parties and not eve only 443 00:21:45,716 --> 00:21:47,556 Speaker 2: have I felt like, Okay, which fork do I use? 444 00:21:47,876 --> 00:21:49,636 Speaker 2: But I also feel like, oh my god, I can 445 00:21:49,716 --> 00:21:52,436 Speaker 2: never have them to my house. I can't reciprocate me 446 00:21:52,476 --> 00:21:54,436 Speaker 2: because I'll never be able to pull this off. 447 00:21:54,556 --> 00:21:55,956 Speaker 1: And I you know, and one of the things we 448 00:21:55,996 --> 00:21:58,076 Speaker 1: know from the work from the research is that you know, 449 00:21:58,196 --> 00:22:00,956 Speaker 1: social connection is such a huge part of our happiness, 450 00:22:01,196 --> 00:22:03,556 Speaker 1: but I think some of us shy away from social connection. 451 00:22:04,196 --> 00:22:06,716 Speaker 1: Especially during the holiday season where we feel like, you know, 452 00:22:06,756 --> 00:22:08,876 Speaker 1: maybe I don't have enough money for presents, or I 453 00:22:08,876 --> 00:22:11,196 Speaker 1: don't have you know, the time or the bandwidth to 454 00:22:11,236 --> 00:22:13,236 Speaker 1: decorate my house. We can get kind of messed up 455 00:22:13,236 --> 00:22:15,196 Speaker 1: about how much we have to do, and so I 456 00:22:15,236 --> 00:22:19,316 Speaker 1: think resetting those perfectionist expectations, giving yourself permission to do 457 00:22:19,396 --> 00:22:23,356 Speaker 1: it eighty five percent, eighty nine percent, just that permission 458 00:22:23,356 --> 00:22:24,396 Speaker 1: can be really powerful. 459 00:22:25,356 --> 00:22:26,996 Speaker 2: This brings up the second point I wanted to talk 460 00:22:27,036 --> 00:22:31,236 Speaker 2: about about gift giving and getting. It's sometimes I get 461 00:22:31,276 --> 00:22:34,076 Speaker 2: a gift and I'm like, oh God, now I got 462 00:22:34,076 --> 00:22:36,116 Speaker 2: to get this person something, and I'm not proud of 463 00:22:36,116 --> 00:22:40,436 Speaker 2: that response, but it feels like an indebtedness, right. I'm 464 00:22:40,436 --> 00:22:44,196 Speaker 2: not feeling gratitude for it. I'm feeling like it's another responsibility. 465 00:22:44,236 --> 00:22:48,036 Speaker 2: And so the question that I have is how do 466 00:22:48,076 --> 00:22:53,036 Speaker 2: we cultivate more of a sense of gratitude and not like, 467 00:22:53,716 --> 00:22:56,436 Speaker 2: oh great, now I owe you something at the holiday season. 468 00:22:56,636 --> 00:22:59,916 Speaker 1: It's interesting gratitude. It's a complicated, positive emotion, right, because 469 00:23:00,236 --> 00:23:02,836 Speaker 1: it makes me feel good that someone thought about me, 470 00:23:03,156 --> 00:23:05,716 Speaker 1: But it does have this kind of sense of indebtedness, 471 00:23:06,076 --> 00:23:08,076 Speaker 1: like I kind of want to give back and that 472 00:23:08,196 --> 00:23:10,996 Speaker 1: kind of motivation. And this is kind of the getting 473 00:23:11,036 --> 00:23:13,076 Speaker 1: to the pro social emotions that you've talked about. In 474 00:23:13,116 --> 00:23:14,996 Speaker 1: the kind of ways that gratitude motivates us to be 475 00:23:15,036 --> 00:23:17,716 Speaker 1: good people. It can be the little juice we need 476 00:23:17,876 --> 00:23:20,316 Speaker 1: to do that nice, good act to somebody else, which 477 00:23:20,316 --> 00:23:22,996 Speaker 1: winds up making us feel better. Right, And so one 478 00:23:22,996 --> 00:23:25,636 Speaker 1: of my favorite strategies for this is to commit to 479 00:23:25,756 --> 00:23:29,916 Speaker 1: being a good gift receiver. Sometimes we think that the 480 00:23:29,956 --> 00:23:31,876 Speaker 1: way to be a good gift receiver is to like 481 00:23:32,036 --> 00:23:35,436 Speaker 1: give materially the same kind of financial transaction back, right, 482 00:23:35,476 --> 00:23:36,596 Speaker 1: you know, if you get the socks, is like, well, 483 00:23:36,596 --> 00:23:38,316 Speaker 1: I have to get something equivalent for the socks to, 484 00:23:38,516 --> 00:23:40,596 Speaker 1: you know, Aunt Joline, who I didn't think was going 485 00:23:40,676 --> 00:23:42,836 Speaker 1: to get me anything. A different way we can be 486 00:23:42,876 --> 00:23:46,556 Speaker 1: a good gift receiver is to really verbally and clearly 487 00:23:46,636 --> 00:23:49,956 Speaker 1: express our gratitude about the gift. And I think best 488 00:23:49,996 --> 00:23:52,956 Speaker 1: expressions of gratitude are ones that are specific. So, oh, 489 00:23:52,956 --> 00:23:54,956 Speaker 1: my gosh, I really like these socks. They are a 490 00:23:54,996 --> 00:23:58,116 Speaker 1: particular color that goes with my suit. I can see 491 00:23:58,116 --> 00:24:01,196 Speaker 1: myself wearing them, So you're kind of simulating the specifics 492 00:24:01,236 --> 00:24:03,596 Speaker 1: of why that thing is really helpful. For you. But 493 00:24:03,716 --> 00:24:06,476 Speaker 1: even better way to be a good gift receiver is 494 00:24:06,516 --> 00:24:08,236 Speaker 1: to thank people not just at the moment where you 495 00:24:08,276 --> 00:24:10,796 Speaker 1: rip the present open, but when you're actually using them later. 496 00:24:11,236 --> 00:24:12,956 Speaker 1: So I've committed to trying to do this with gifts 497 00:24:12,956 --> 00:24:15,796 Speaker 1: that I've got. Like I have this wonderful Dutch oven 498 00:24:15,876 --> 00:24:18,596 Speaker 1: that my dad and my stepmom gave me at this 499 00:24:18,636 --> 00:24:20,676 Speaker 1: point many years ago. But Dutch ovens, you know, live on, 500 00:24:20,876 --> 00:24:22,756 Speaker 1: and there's moments when I, like, you know, I'm just 501 00:24:22,756 --> 00:24:24,996 Speaker 1: making some cast role or something, and I think this 502 00:24:25,116 --> 00:24:26,436 Speaker 1: is so cool that they gave me this gift, and 503 00:24:26,436 --> 00:24:28,116 Speaker 1: I'll just like a quick text of like I was 504 00:24:28,156 --> 00:24:30,876 Speaker 1: still using your Dutch ovens still around, I'm still enjoying it. 505 00:24:31,236 --> 00:24:33,556 Speaker 1: Another great thing gratitude can do is it can get 506 00:24:33,676 --> 00:24:36,636 Speaker 1: rid of what's called hetonic adaptation, which is like you 507 00:24:36,676 --> 00:24:38,676 Speaker 1: just kind of get used to stuff that it's good 508 00:24:38,676 --> 00:24:40,836 Speaker 1: stuff in your life, but you kind of stop noticing 509 00:24:40,916 --> 00:24:44,156 Speaker 1: that it was really awesome. Tage my Dutch oven, for example, 510 00:24:44,396 --> 00:24:46,636 Speaker 1: right when I'm thinking about, man, I'm so grateful that 511 00:24:46,956 --> 00:24:49,236 Speaker 1: my dad got me this thing. It makes the Dutch 512 00:24:49,316 --> 00:24:51,196 Speaker 1: oven kind of feel a little bit more exciting when 513 00:24:51,196 --> 00:24:53,076 Speaker 1: it could have just been this pot, you know. And 514 00:24:53,116 --> 00:24:55,436 Speaker 1: again it's just a boost for all of us and 515 00:24:55,516 --> 00:24:58,236 Speaker 1: a boost to the relatedness relationship, right, because that's what 516 00:24:58,236 --> 00:25:00,236 Speaker 1: the gifts are really about. It's not like well, financial 517 00:25:00,236 --> 00:25:02,836 Speaker 1: transaction and now I'm in dead and know the goal 518 00:25:02,956 --> 00:25:05,236 Speaker 1: is to create more of a connection, and ideally one 519 00:25:05,236 --> 00:25:07,956 Speaker 1: that lives, you know, past December twenty sixth too. 520 00:25:08,356 --> 00:25:10,676 Speaker 2: And I think one thing that we learn from the 521 00:25:10,676 --> 00:25:14,756 Speaker 2: spiritual traditions is when they talk about gratitude, it's not 522 00:25:14,796 --> 00:25:19,276 Speaker 2: so much focused on the object, it's focused on the 523 00:25:19,316 --> 00:25:22,236 Speaker 2: effort and the cost to the person to do it. 524 00:25:22,676 --> 00:25:24,916 Speaker 2: Maybe they knit in be a hat, and maybe it's 525 00:25:24,916 --> 00:25:27,956 Speaker 2: a hideous hat, but they put their heart and soul 526 00:25:27,996 --> 00:25:32,036 Speaker 2: into that thing, right, And in some ways that means 527 00:25:32,076 --> 00:25:34,916 Speaker 2: more to me than a beautiful hat that somebody got 528 00:25:34,956 --> 00:25:37,156 Speaker 2: me at Macy's on their way out of the store 529 00:25:37,196 --> 00:25:40,796 Speaker 2: as an extra, you know, gift topper. And so I 530 00:25:40,836 --> 00:25:42,436 Speaker 2: totally agree that we need to thank them for it 531 00:25:42,476 --> 00:25:46,436 Speaker 2: and keep those relationships going. I think, you know, part 532 00:25:46,476 --> 00:25:49,476 Speaker 2: of what we need to do more is to appreciate 533 00:25:49,516 --> 00:25:51,476 Speaker 2: the intention behind the gift. 534 00:25:51,676 --> 00:25:53,516 Speaker 1: And I think it can help if you try to 535 00:25:53,556 --> 00:25:56,836 Speaker 1: think about that intention in terms of their relatedness, right, 536 00:25:57,196 --> 00:25:58,996 Speaker 1: you know the hat that wasn't it, or maybe you 537 00:25:58,996 --> 00:26:00,436 Speaker 1: don't love the hat, you're not going to use the 538 00:26:00,476 --> 00:26:03,196 Speaker 1: hat like you can think back to like Derek moments 539 00:26:03,236 --> 00:26:05,436 Speaker 1: where you know that cousin was sitting there, you know, 540 00:26:05,556 --> 00:26:08,316 Speaker 1: knitting this wonderful thing for you, thinking about you enjoying it. 541 00:26:08,676 --> 00:26:11,356 Speaker 2: I often talk about gratitude related to how it makes 542 00:26:11,436 --> 00:26:14,476 Speaker 2: us more virtuous people, more generous people. But what does 543 00:26:14,516 --> 00:26:16,396 Speaker 2: it do just for our health and happiness? 544 00:26:16,796 --> 00:26:19,116 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it has so many positive effects that 545 00:26:19,156 --> 00:26:21,356 Speaker 1: are like kind of striking when you read the literature. 546 00:26:21,396 --> 00:26:25,316 Speaker 1: So individuals who are generally just you know, personality wise, 547 00:26:25,356 --> 00:26:28,676 Speaker 1: a little bit more grateful wind up sleeping better. There's 548 00:26:28,676 --> 00:26:30,796 Speaker 1: evidence from folks like Bob Emmon's lab that it can 549 00:26:30,836 --> 00:26:35,076 Speaker 1: reduce things like inflammation. How does gratitude reduce something like inflammation? 550 00:26:35,276 --> 00:26:37,996 Speaker 1: When you're more grateful, you're more future oriented, you need 551 00:26:38,036 --> 00:26:39,556 Speaker 1: a little bit healthier, you go to the gym a 552 00:26:39,556 --> 00:26:42,276 Speaker 1: little bit more. That by itself is going to reduce inflammation. 553 00:26:42,356 --> 00:26:46,476 Speaker 1: So has this cascade of tiny positive effects both physically 554 00:26:46,636 --> 00:26:49,156 Speaker 1: and I think mentally that allow us to engage in 555 00:26:49,196 --> 00:26:52,356 Speaker 1: the right behaviors and motivations that wind up making us 556 00:26:52,396 --> 00:26:53,796 Speaker 1: healthier and happier over time. 557 00:26:54,196 --> 00:26:57,956 Speaker 2: So if for celebrating traditionally we're doing gratitude prayers during 558 00:26:58,156 --> 00:27:01,996 Speaker 2: Advent and Christmas, during the eight days of Hanukkah, if 559 00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:04,436 Speaker 2: we're kind of celebrating in a secular way, what are 560 00:27:04,476 --> 00:27:07,516 Speaker 2: the ways that you encourage people to cultivate gratitude. 561 00:27:07,996 --> 00:27:11,076 Speaker 1: There's lots of secular gratitude practice does at work pretty well. 562 00:27:11,396 --> 00:27:14,116 Speaker 1: The simple act of writing in a gratitude journal every 563 00:27:14,196 --> 00:27:16,316 Speaker 1: day you know three to five things you're grateful for 564 00:27:16,676 --> 00:27:19,076 Speaker 1: that can wind up making you feel happier. If that 565 00:27:19,076 --> 00:27:21,836 Speaker 1: feels a little bit onerous, one of my favorite alternative 566 00:27:21,916 --> 00:27:25,676 Speaker 1: versions of that practice is something I've done with Catherine Price, 567 00:27:25,716 --> 00:27:28,916 Speaker 1: who's a journalist. She actually talks about developing a delight 568 00:27:28,996 --> 00:27:32,116 Speaker 1: practice where if you just see something delightful in the world, 569 00:27:32,316 --> 00:27:35,156 Speaker 1: you just text each other I saw this ridiculous thing. 570 00:27:35,356 --> 00:27:37,916 Speaker 1: Delight you know. The normal bias we have is a 571 00:27:37,956 --> 00:27:40,836 Speaker 1: negativity bias right where we're out seeking the tough stuff, 572 00:27:41,276 --> 00:27:43,516 Speaker 1: and I think in a holiday season where our expectations 573 00:27:43,516 --> 00:27:46,116 Speaker 1: are I that negativity bias can be on like you know, 574 00:27:46,236 --> 00:27:49,756 Speaker 1: high alert. But a gratitude practice or a delight practice 575 00:27:49,836 --> 00:27:53,196 Speaker 1: trains your attention to find the delightful things, and like religions, 576 00:27:53,236 --> 00:27:55,676 Speaker 1: it's ideal if you do it with somebody else. One 577 00:27:55,756 --> 00:27:58,116 Speaker 1: of the reasons religious traditions work so well is most 578 00:27:58,116 --> 00:28:00,836 Speaker 1: religious traditions aren't you know, you and your house all 579 00:28:00,836 --> 00:28:04,116 Speaker 1: by yourself, you know, engaging in something. It's doing something 580 00:28:04,236 --> 00:28:06,636 Speaker 1: with other people. Like if you're doing a delight practice 581 00:28:06,636 --> 00:28:08,476 Speaker 1: with other people, you got to find the delights because 582 00:28:08,476 --> 00:28:09,796 Speaker 1: you know they're going to take you three times with 583 00:28:09,836 --> 00:28:12,436 Speaker 1: delights and you're gonna feel like, oh man, gotta find something. 584 00:28:12,676 --> 00:28:14,996 Speaker 1: But then your attention is out there looking for the 585 00:28:15,036 --> 00:28:17,116 Speaker 1: good things in the world, looking for the nice stuff. 586 00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:22,196 Speaker 2: And I think back about the holidays that I did 587 00:28:22,236 --> 00:28:26,516 Speaker 2: throughout my life. Some of the ones that seemed most 588 00:28:26,636 --> 00:28:30,716 Speaker 2: rich and brought me the most joy involved doing the 589 00:28:31,156 --> 00:28:34,676 Speaker 2: traditional things for Christmas, and one of those was going 590 00:28:35,196 --> 00:28:48,196 Speaker 2: to Mass Christmas services. I was raised Catholic, I was 591 00:28:48,196 --> 00:28:50,356 Speaker 2: an ultra boy. I have none of those things now. 592 00:28:50,996 --> 00:28:54,516 Speaker 2: I'm a good old agnostic scientist, but I still like 593 00:28:54,676 --> 00:28:58,036 Speaker 2: going to those services with the majesty and the music. 594 00:28:59,996 --> 00:29:02,276 Speaker 2: And this got me thinking about your friend and mine. 595 00:29:02,356 --> 00:29:06,996 Speaker 2: Dak Or Keltner's work on awe, And it seems like 596 00:29:07,116 --> 00:29:10,916 Speaker 2: during these holidays, there are these times when you can 597 00:29:10,956 --> 00:29:16,556 Speaker 2: experience awe the art, the music, the beauty, even lighting 598 00:29:16,556 --> 00:29:19,116 Speaker 2: your first Christmas tree at home with your family. And 599 00:29:19,156 --> 00:29:22,716 Speaker 2: so what do we know about how those experiences of 600 00:29:22,836 --> 00:29:23,956 Speaker 2: awe affect happiness? 601 00:29:24,276 --> 00:29:27,556 Speaker 1: Research shows that experiencing awe winds up having these very 602 00:29:27,596 --> 00:29:31,356 Speaker 1: important positive consequences. One of them is that it winds 603 00:29:31,436 --> 00:29:33,916 Speaker 1: up making us feel more socially connected. This is some 604 00:29:33,996 --> 00:29:36,316 Speaker 1: of my favorite of dak Or Keltner, who you mentioned work, 605 00:29:36,596 --> 00:29:38,436 Speaker 1: where he does these studies where he puts people in 606 00:29:38,476 --> 00:29:41,276 Speaker 1: a really awe inspiring situation. He doesn't use the Christmas 607 00:29:41,276 --> 00:29:43,476 Speaker 1: trees or the holidays. He brings people to these kind 608 00:29:43,476 --> 00:29:45,956 Speaker 1: of places like Yellowstone and where you can kind of 609 00:29:45,956 --> 00:29:48,996 Speaker 1: experience this sort of awe and nature. And he says, hey, 610 00:29:49,836 --> 00:29:52,356 Speaker 1: you look at this little map of you and your 611 00:29:52,396 --> 00:29:54,916 Speaker 1: community and show me how much overlap there is. Is 612 00:29:54,956 --> 00:29:57,036 Speaker 1: there kind of a lot of overlap or less overlap. 613 00:29:57,396 --> 00:29:59,756 Speaker 1: And what he finds is that people self report experiencing 614 00:29:59,836 --> 00:30:02,476 Speaker 1: a lot of overlap with their community, right, which is 615 00:30:02,516 --> 00:30:04,676 Speaker 1: kind of striking because they're again, they're not in front 616 00:30:04,676 --> 00:30:06,716 Speaker 1: of a Christmas tree with their family. They're looking out 617 00:30:06,716 --> 00:30:09,756 Speaker 1: at this vast landscape with nobody in it. They're feeling 618 00:30:09,796 --> 00:30:12,636 Speaker 1: really socially connected. And I think that's what aw does 619 00:30:12,796 --> 00:30:15,636 Speaker 1: in the holiday season too, right. One that Daker talks 620 00:30:15,676 --> 00:30:17,236 Speaker 1: about a lot is the sort of awe that we 621 00:30:17,276 --> 00:30:20,436 Speaker 1: get from moral actions. I think the holiday season is 622 00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:22,356 Speaker 1: one of the only times of the new cycle where 623 00:30:22,356 --> 00:30:25,836 Speaker 1: we can see people doing really wonderful good things in 624 00:30:25,876 --> 00:30:28,476 Speaker 1: the world. It's also a moment where we get off 625 00:30:28,476 --> 00:30:31,436 Speaker 1: from collective effervescence. You know, why does the music at 626 00:30:31,476 --> 00:30:33,916 Speaker 1: a church resonate with you if you don't believe any 627 00:30:33,956 --> 00:30:35,756 Speaker 1: of that stuff. It's because we're all kind of saying 628 00:30:35,796 --> 00:30:38,236 Speaker 1: it together. When you're in the middle of a Hallelujah chorus, 629 00:30:38,676 --> 00:30:40,596 Speaker 1: you know, you could be the biggest atheist in the world, 630 00:30:40,636 --> 00:30:43,476 Speaker 1: but something's pumping through your brain that's making you feel 631 00:30:43,516 --> 00:30:44,676 Speaker 1: really socially connected. 632 00:30:45,876 --> 00:30:56,556 Speaker 2: The holidays are supposed to be a time for rest 633 00:30:57,116 --> 00:30:59,076 Speaker 2: and renewal, too, right. If we're going to be happy, 634 00:30:59,196 --> 00:31:02,756 Speaker 2: we need that downtime, that time to disconnect. And so 635 00:31:03,356 --> 00:31:07,676 Speaker 2: whether it's prayer or simple contemplation, these holidays build those 636 00:31:07,756 --> 00:31:11,996 Speaker 2: moments in And it's interesting because it's often around the 637 00:31:12,116 --> 00:31:15,876 Speaker 2: idea of candles and candle flames right, which is an 638 00:31:15,916 --> 00:31:19,396 Speaker 2: ancient technique for focusing the mind. So Christians focus on 639 00:31:19,476 --> 00:31:22,756 Speaker 2: candles that they light in the Advent wreath. Many Jewish 640 00:31:22,876 --> 00:31:26,196 Speaker 2: folks often focus on the candles and the menora. There's 641 00:31:26,236 --> 00:31:30,076 Speaker 2: even some Jewish traditions that emphasize focusing on the candles 642 00:31:30,076 --> 00:31:33,876 Speaker 2: of the manora as a way to meditate. And even 643 00:31:34,436 --> 00:31:38,516 Speaker 2: in the old celebration of Pagan Yule around the Solstice, 644 00:31:38,556 --> 00:31:40,036 Speaker 2: there was this idea of the Yule log. And I 645 00:31:40,076 --> 00:31:41,476 Speaker 2: don't know if you had this, because I grew up 646 00:31:41,476 --> 00:31:43,556 Speaker 2: in New York and New York there's something called the 647 00:31:43,636 --> 00:31:45,076 Speaker 2: Yulog TV show. 648 00:31:45,116 --> 00:31:47,996 Speaker 3: This Christmas Eve when all the wonderful old traditions of 649 00:31:48,036 --> 00:31:51,556 Speaker 3: this special night, as so much in our hearts. WPIX 650 00:31:51,596 --> 00:31:55,116 Speaker 3: Television and one o two WPIX. 651 00:31:54,396 --> 00:31:57,316 Speaker 2: Channel eleven in New York on Christmas Eve would all 652 00:31:57,396 --> 00:31:59,196 Speaker 2: night show a picture of a log and a fire 653 00:32:00,556 --> 00:32:02,756 Speaker 2: and for those of us who didn't have fireplaces that 654 00:32:02,796 --> 00:32:04,756 Speaker 2: are we would sit there and we would look at it, 655 00:32:04,516 --> 00:32:06,876 Speaker 2: and it was soothing and it would lead to contemplation. 656 00:32:06,956 --> 00:32:10,076 Speaker 3: We empt at all regular programming and commercial to bring 657 00:32:10,076 --> 00:32:13,076 Speaker 3: you the warmth, good cheer, and friendliness of a u 658 00:32:13,196 --> 00:32:17,476 Speaker 3: log fire accompanied by the most beautiful and familiar Christmas gals. 659 00:32:18,036 --> 00:32:20,396 Speaker 1: I'm laughing at you, But actually, when I first moved 660 00:32:20,396 --> 00:32:21,956 Speaker 1: into the house that my husband and I lived in 661 00:32:22,156 --> 00:32:24,476 Speaker 1: New Haven, we bought the house because it had this 662 00:32:24,556 --> 00:32:26,596 Speaker 1: nice fireplace. But it turns out we didn't look into 663 00:32:26,596 --> 00:32:28,516 Speaker 1: the fireplace, and it turns out it's bricked off at 664 00:32:28,516 --> 00:32:30,476 Speaker 1: the top. It's just like a fake fireplace. And so 665 00:32:30,596 --> 00:32:33,956 Speaker 1: I actually bought like a little DVD of flaming fireplace 666 00:32:33,996 --> 00:32:35,556 Speaker 1: that you ali. I didn't know this was like an 667 00:32:35,596 --> 00:32:38,356 Speaker 1: old school thing. I thought it was DVD technology, but no. 668 00:32:38,436 --> 00:32:40,716 Speaker 1: But the reason we like looking at it is that 669 00:32:40,756 --> 00:32:43,236 Speaker 1: you get back from that you know, trafficky moment of 670 00:32:43,276 --> 00:32:45,676 Speaker 1: shopping and so on, and you look at the flame 671 00:32:45,956 --> 00:32:49,836 Speaker 1: and your breath kind of entrains to it. And working 672 00:32:49,876 --> 00:32:52,156 Speaker 1: on their breath is a really powerful way to hack 673 00:32:52,356 --> 00:32:55,476 Speaker 1: the relaxation system that we experience. You know, a lot 674 00:32:55,476 --> 00:32:58,076 Speaker 1: of the holiday season activates what's called our fighter flight, 675 00:32:58,156 --> 00:33:00,676 Speaker 1: our sympathetic nervous system, which is we're kind of on 676 00:33:00,796 --> 00:33:03,956 Speaker 1: high alert. We're incredibly vigilant, our hearts beating fester. What 677 00:33:03,996 --> 00:33:05,676 Speaker 1: we really want to do is to activate the kind 678 00:33:05,716 --> 00:33:08,316 Speaker 1: of sister system to our fighter flight, which is what's 679 00:33:08,356 --> 00:33:11,236 Speaker 1: called the rest are est or the parasympathetic nervous system. 680 00:33:11,636 --> 00:33:13,356 Speaker 1: And when you look at a flame and you're just 681 00:33:13,396 --> 00:33:16,196 Speaker 1: kind of watching it over time, your breath kind of 682 00:33:16,396 --> 00:33:19,436 Speaker 1: entrains to the slow movement of the flame. So I 683 00:33:19,436 --> 00:33:21,676 Speaker 1: think the fire is a really great way to do that, 684 00:33:21,796 --> 00:33:24,436 Speaker 1: and maybe one of the best ways to do it, 685 00:33:24,676 --> 00:33:27,516 Speaker 1: you know, in the holiday season. Plus, it's light when 686 00:33:27,516 --> 00:33:29,116 Speaker 1: you're on your intro. You talked about this is the 687 00:33:29,156 --> 00:33:31,516 Speaker 1: time that's dark and our serotonin's going down, and so 688 00:33:31,836 --> 00:33:33,876 Speaker 1: something that gives us light in a way that also 689 00:33:33,996 --> 00:33:36,076 Speaker 1: entrains our breath and gets us kind of a little 690 00:33:36,076 --> 00:33:40,236 Speaker 1: bit meditative. It's a super great practice, especially for secular folks. 691 00:33:42,196 --> 00:33:45,076 Speaker 2: And you know, speaking of secular folks, it's true that 692 00:33:45,156 --> 00:33:47,996 Speaker 2: a lot of people celebrate holidays like Christmas, even if 693 00:33:48,036 --> 00:33:50,876 Speaker 2: they aren't very religious. It's more about Santa than the 694 00:33:50,876 --> 00:33:54,716 Speaker 2: birth of Jesus, right, But there's probably still ways they 695 00:33:54,716 --> 00:33:57,796 Speaker 2: can practice elements of the holidays to find that joy 696 00:33:57,876 --> 00:34:00,036 Speaker 2: connection and all the other good things we're talking about. 697 00:34:01,036 --> 00:34:03,716 Speaker 2: But that makes me wonder, is there a way that 698 00:34:03,756 --> 00:34:06,836 Speaker 2: we can create our own rituals and traditions, ones that 699 00:34:06,876 --> 00:34:10,596 Speaker 2: don't have anything to do with the existing holidays, but 700 00:34:10,716 --> 00:34:12,916 Speaker 2: still allow us to celebrate them in a way that 701 00:34:13,556 --> 00:34:15,116 Speaker 2: feels meaningful. 702 00:34:17,676 --> 00:34:19,476 Speaker 1: This is the time when you can kind of create 703 00:34:19,516 --> 00:34:21,956 Speaker 1: these traditions and you'll be surprised at how many of 704 00:34:21,956 --> 00:34:24,636 Speaker 1: them kind of stick. My mom has one, and she 705 00:34:24,676 --> 00:34:27,236 Speaker 1: was very close to her godmother, who has now passed 706 00:34:27,276 --> 00:34:30,956 Speaker 1: a long time ago, and her godmother really enjoyed lobster. 707 00:34:31,036 --> 00:34:33,996 Speaker 1: It was her favorite thing. And so my mom, kind 708 00:34:34,036 --> 00:34:36,836 Speaker 1: of in honor of my godmother for the holidays, will 709 00:34:36,876 --> 00:34:40,116 Speaker 1: purchase a live lobster. My mom doesn't eat shellfish though, 710 00:34:40,156 --> 00:34:41,676 Speaker 1: so she doesn't like to eat the lobster. What she 711 00:34:41,716 --> 00:34:44,596 Speaker 1: does is she takes this live lobster to the beach 712 00:34:44,636 --> 00:34:46,756 Speaker 1: and she sort of releases the lobster to the beach. 713 00:34:46,876 --> 00:34:48,636 Speaker 1: And the idea is it's just, you know, it's a 714 00:34:48,676 --> 00:34:51,436 Speaker 1: way of kind of thinking about her godmother and sort 715 00:34:51,476 --> 00:34:54,356 Speaker 1: of giving back. It's very funny if you watch the ritual, 716 00:34:54,396 --> 00:34:56,396 Speaker 1: it's really fun for the lobsters because the lobster's kind 717 00:34:56,436 --> 00:34:58,836 Speaker 1: of get the little lobster clothing he's taken off, and 718 00:34:58,876 --> 00:35:00,956 Speaker 1: they're on the beach and they're like a little confused, 719 00:35:00,956 --> 00:35:03,236 Speaker 1: but they're like great and they just dive into the ocean. 720 00:35:06,596 --> 00:35:08,316 Speaker 1: One of the things I think we forget about rituals 721 00:35:08,316 --> 00:35:10,356 Speaker 1: is that, like Mom's case, you's buying and slapt there, 722 00:35:10,356 --> 00:35:13,036 Speaker 1: but like they don't have to cost any money, they 723 00:35:13,076 --> 00:35:15,516 Speaker 1: don't have to make sense, right, they can be kind 724 00:35:15,516 --> 00:35:18,516 Speaker 1: of dumb, like even sometimes absurd, and at least for 725 00:35:18,716 --> 00:35:21,076 Speaker 1: you know that a more atheist, secular person like me, 726 00:35:21,156 --> 00:35:23,356 Speaker 1: the kind of absurdity is sort of fun in rituals. 727 00:35:23,716 --> 00:35:26,036 Speaker 1: But these are the things we can we can embrace, 728 00:35:26,476 --> 00:35:31,636 Speaker 1: and I think especially if you feel frustrated by holiday traditions, 729 00:35:32,436 --> 00:35:35,116 Speaker 1: you maybe you're grieving the old holiday tradition. You're looking 730 00:35:35,116 --> 00:35:38,196 Speaker 1: for something. This is a spot where building new stuff 731 00:35:38,356 --> 00:35:40,676 Speaker 1: can feel really good. This is something we've done in 732 00:35:40,676 --> 00:35:42,636 Speaker 1: my own family. I have, you know, a family where 733 00:35:42,876 --> 00:35:45,356 Speaker 1: you know there's there's divorce, and there's lots of families 734 00:35:45,436 --> 00:35:48,516 Speaker 1: vying for our attention. And in the Christmas season, you 735 00:35:48,556 --> 00:35:51,116 Speaker 1: know there's there's somebody who's gonna get you on Christmas morning. 736 00:35:51,196 --> 00:35:53,356 Speaker 1: But it's really hard to be in all the places 737 00:35:53,396 --> 00:35:56,156 Speaker 1: on Christmas morning. And so our family has developed a 738 00:35:56,196 --> 00:35:59,436 Speaker 1: new tradition of celebrating around the Solstice, which is not 739 00:35:59,516 --> 00:36:01,676 Speaker 1: as busy a time. You know, flights are a little 740 00:36:01,716 --> 00:36:03,996 Speaker 1: bit cheaper, so everybody can get together. And it's like 741 00:36:04,036 --> 00:36:06,276 Speaker 1: we just developed all these dumb rituals of the Solstice, 742 00:36:06,516 --> 00:36:09,716 Speaker 1: these Solstice cake watch, some Carl Saga and these kinds 743 00:36:09,716 --> 00:36:12,236 Speaker 1: of things, and so it's like you just make stuff up, 744 00:36:12,356 --> 00:36:15,236 Speaker 1: but really it winds up feeling a lot better. 745 00:36:15,876 --> 00:36:18,676 Speaker 2: But it's bringing you together. You're having those experiences of 746 00:36:18,756 --> 00:36:20,876 Speaker 2: gratitude and sharing. That's amazing. 747 00:36:21,036 --> 00:36:24,116 Speaker 1: Like turn these things into rituals as though they were 748 00:36:24,116 --> 00:36:26,556 Speaker 1: sort of blessed by some religious authority, and you have 749 00:36:26,676 --> 00:36:29,156 Speaker 1: to do them every year, and those kinds of rituals 750 00:36:29,196 --> 00:36:30,876 Speaker 1: will wind up making you feel a lot better. 751 00:36:31,036 --> 00:36:39,556 Speaker 2: The doing is the point. Listeners. Right now, as Laurie 752 00:36:39,556 --> 00:36:41,716 Speaker 2: and I are going to be leaving, it is cold 753 00:36:41,756 --> 00:36:45,316 Speaker 2: and dark in Boston, and I will say that I 754 00:36:45,316 --> 00:36:48,236 Speaker 2: can attest to this because my holiday season is already 755 00:36:48,236 --> 00:36:52,156 Speaker 2: feeling better because I have social connection with my good 756 00:36:52,196 --> 00:36:54,676 Speaker 2: friend Laurie, who I haven't seen in a while. I'm 757 00:36:54,676 --> 00:36:57,116 Speaker 2: incredibly grateful that she's so busy that she made time 758 00:36:57,156 --> 00:36:59,996 Speaker 2: to come on this and so thank you, Thanks Dave, 759 00:37:00,076 --> 00:37:08,196 Speaker 2: and happy holidays, Happy Holidays. That's it for season seven 760 00:37:08,196 --> 00:37:11,596 Speaker 2: of How God Works. If you enjoy today's episode, please 761 00:37:11,676 --> 00:37:14,836 Speaker 2: leave us some comments or stars wherever you listen. We'll 762 00:37:14,876 --> 00:37:17,476 Speaker 2: be back in the spring with new episodes that explore 763 00:37:17,476 --> 00:37:20,476 Speaker 2: more of life's big questions and what advice science and 764 00:37:20,516 --> 00:37:24,356 Speaker 2: spirituality has to offer. In the meantime, we'll be sharing 765 00:37:24,396 --> 00:37:26,996 Speaker 2: some special surprises as well as some of our favorite 766 00:37:26,996 --> 00:37:30,716 Speaker 2: episodes from the archives. For now, all of us here 767 00:37:30,916 --> 00:37:33,956 Speaker 2: are wishing you and yours a truly happy holiday season 768 00:37:34,476 --> 00:37:44,396 Speaker 2: and all the best for the coming year. How God 769 00:37:44,436 --> 00:37:47,836 Speaker 2: Works is hosted by Me Dave Disteno. This episode was 770 00:37:47,836 --> 00:37:50,876 Speaker 2: written by Josie Holtzman and Me. Our senior producer is 771 00:37:50,956 --> 00:37:55,436 Speaker 2: Josie Holtzman. Our producer is Sophie Eisenberg. Our associate producer 772 00:37:55,596 --> 00:38:00,916 Speaker 2: is Emmanuel Disarme executive producer is Genevieve's sponsoror. Merrit Jacob 773 00:38:00,956 --> 00:38:03,596 Speaker 2: is our mix engineer and composed our theme, which was 774 00:38:03,716 --> 00:38:07,196 Speaker 2: arranged by Chloe Disteno. The executive producer of perr X 775 00:38:07,236 --> 00:38:11,676 Speaker 2: Productions is Jocelyn Gonzalez. This podcast was also made possible 776 00:38:11,676 --> 00:38:15,196 Speaker 2: with support from the John Templeton Foundation. To learn more 777 00:38:15,236 --> 00:38:18,636 Speaker 2: about the show and access episode transcripts. You can find 778 00:38:18,676 --> 00:38:22,596 Speaker 2: our website at how Good Works all one word dot org, 779 00:38:23,356 --> 00:38:26,156 Speaker 2: and for news and peaks at What's Coming. Feel free 780 00:38:26,156 --> 00:38:28,956 Speaker 2: to follow us on Instagram at how God Works pod 781 00:38:29,636 --> 00:38:32,756 Speaker 2: or me on exer Blue Sky at David Disteno