1 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. I 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: am Joe McCormick. Normally on Tuesdays we would have a 3 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: new core episode of the show for you, but our 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: team has some stuff going on early this week, so 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: today we are bringing you an episode from the vault. 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: This is part three of our series on the Hermit 7 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: Crab and it originally aired on January eleventh, twenty twenty four. 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: After today's vault, we're going to be back with all 9 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: new stuff for you the rest of this week. So 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: I guess that's everything. Let us seize the empty shell. 11 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio. 12 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 3: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 13 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, 14 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: and we are back with part three in our series 15 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: on Hermit Crabs. Now, if you haven't heard the first 16 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: couple of parts of the series, you might want to 17 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: go back and listen to those first, but also if 18 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: you just want to start here, that's fine. I don't 19 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: know if there's any particular order you need to do 20 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: these in. In the previous two episodes, we talked about 21 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: Rob's recent in person observation of terrestrial Caribbean hermit crabs 22 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: in the wild, which sounds fascinating watching them scuttle about 23 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: and do their business. We talked about the way hermit 24 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: crabs fit into the crustacean family tree, how they differ 25 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: from so called true crabs or the brachyura, how they 26 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: evolved to depend on exogynous mobile shelter in the form 27 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: of things like gastropod shells. We talked about how hermit 28 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: crabs forage and compete for shells within a kind of economy, 29 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: and how this leads to an interesting phenomenon called vacancy chains, 30 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: with parallels in the markets for some certain human resources, 31 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: such as housing and certain kinds of jobs. We discussed 32 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: some surprising evolutionary relationships, such as the widely supported idea 33 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: that free living king crabs, yes, even the kind you eat, 34 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: probably evolved from a hermit crab ancestor so the lineage. 35 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: If this hypothesis is right, the lineage evolved once from 36 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: free living crabs to the hermit crab form, where it 37 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 1: developed a soft wormy abdomen and evolved to depend entirely 38 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: on these externally sourced shells, and then some branches of 39 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: that family evolved once again to abandon the external shells 40 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: and become fully hardened all over, become these free living 41 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: crab like organisms. Again, king crabs are also anomura. They're 42 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,399 Speaker 1: also not so called true crabs. And also we discussed 43 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: some fascinating alternatives to the common relationship between hermit crabs 44 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: and snail shells. The majority of crabs do hermit crabs 45 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: do prefer to live within the shells of gastropods, snails, welks, periwinkles, 46 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: those kind of things. But there are also hermits that 47 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: take up residents within living sea anemones or solitary corals, 48 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: and so we talked about the reasons those relationships could 49 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: be mutually beneficial. 50 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,519 Speaker 3: That's right, And as we discussed too, I mean, there's 51 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 3: still so much research going on concerning hermit crabs and 52 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 3: the discovery of new particularly aquatic hermit crab species, and 53 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 3: just fully understanding terrestrial hermit crabs as well. So you know, 54 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 3: we're gonna we're not going to be able to touch 55 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 3: on everything in this trilogy, but we are going to 56 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 3: finish the trilogy here. We're going to finish our story 57 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 3: of hermit crabs, and we're going to get into a 58 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 3: few remaining and perhaps surprising areas of discussion. 59 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: So the first thing I wanted to talk about today 60 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: was that I was quite interested to find some meditations 61 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: on hermit crabs in the writings of the late Stephen J. Gould, 62 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: the American paleontologist and popular science communicator. So, first of all, 63 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: I did find that Gould wrote a good bit on 64 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: the hermits to King's hypod thesis that we talked about 65 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: in the previous episode, where king crabs are thought to 66 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: have probably evolved from hermit crab ancestors. 67 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 3: Did he have a particular take or was he just 68 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 3: generally reporting on the back and forth among evolutionary scientists. 69 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: Well, I saw that he wrote on this subject. I 70 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 1: did not read everything he did right on this subject, 71 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: so I don't know where he landed in the end. 72 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 3: I'm just going to assume he probably landed where everyone 73 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 3: else seems to be in the land, and that is well, 74 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 3: most people agree that this hypothesis has probably corrected. It 75 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 3: seems to be the scientific consensus. 76 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: That seems likely to me. But beyond that, I found 77 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: a really interesting anecdote about hermit crabs in an essay 78 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: called Nature's Odd couples from Gould's nineteen eighty collection The 79 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: Panda's Thumb. This essay was great because the core observations 80 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: from Gould are fascinating, but it also sent me off 81 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: on a pretty good tangent that I hope you'll enjoy 82 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: about snail's what look like bloody teeth. So Gould opens 83 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: this essay with a quote. He opens by talking about 84 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: a quote from Alexander Pope's poem An Essay on Man 85 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,559 Speaker 1: and a rhyming couplet. It goes like this, from nature's chain, 86 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: whatever link you strike tenth or ten thousandth breaks the 87 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: chain alike, And he kind of starts by appreciating some 88 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: ways in which this quote is both is and is 89 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: not true. So in the sense in which the spirit 90 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: of the quote is true, organisms throughout an ecosystem are 91 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: all connected by various types of relationships. There are energy relationships, 92 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: you know, some organisms eat one another or affect how 93 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: one another can acquire energy. There are information relationships. Sometimes 94 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: organisms learn about something from another one and so forth, 95 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: and these relationships can be both direct and indirect, So 96 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: things that happen to one organism can ripple through the 97 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: whole ecosystem. In surprising ways. On the other hand, it's 98 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: obviously not the case that the chain of nature to 99 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: use Pope's image here, is completely destroyed anytime one link 100 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:17,799 Speaker 1: is broken Gould rights quote. Ecosystems are not so precariously 101 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: balanced that the extirpation of one species must act like 102 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: the first domino in that colorful metaphor of the Cold War. Indeed, 103 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,559 Speaker 1: it could not be, for extinction is the common fate 104 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: of all species, and they cannot all take their ecosystems 105 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: with them. Species often have as much dependence on each 106 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: other as longfellows ships that pass in the night. And 107 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: to add to this, I would just say it's a 108 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: very safe estimate that more than ninety nine percent of 109 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,679 Speaker 1: species that have ever existed are already extinct. The American 110 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: Museum of Natural History uses the estimate that it's more 111 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: than ninety nine point nine percent of all species that 112 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: ever existed. So obviously it's just not the case that 113 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 1: a single link is broken and the entire chain is 114 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: necessarily shattered, or life couldn't exist today. Ecosystems in many 115 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: cases survive and adapt that they have to change. They 116 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: adapt to changes in their makeup, but to come back 117 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: On the other hand, it's absolutely true that the extinction 118 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: of one organism in an ecosystem can be absolutely devastating, 119 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: and it can lead to secondary extinctions. And from a 120 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: human perspective, a major danger here is the lack of 121 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: predictability in these kinds of relationships, Like sometimes we can 122 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: predict what these relationships and domino effects would be, but 123 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: sometimes we can't. We don't always know what would happen 124 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: to a whole environment and ecosystem when one species is 125 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: taken out of the equation. 126 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 3: That's right, and we've talked about that before in terms 127 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 3: of situations where there is very much an organism we 128 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 3: would like to remove from the ecosystem or from parts 129 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 3: of the ecosystem, such as say mosquito or some other paths, 130 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 3: something that is interfering with human aims and industries. But 131 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 3: the question always remains, like, well, what else is that 132 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 3: organism doing, What eats it, what is kept in check 133 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 3: by it, and so forth, And so there are all 134 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 3: these spiraling concerns, and you know, it's kind of like that. 135 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 3: It reminds me of that old thing I think from 136 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 3: some movie or another about how if you're going to 137 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 3: rob a bank or something you know. They're like so 138 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 3: many ways you can mess up, and if you can 139 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 3: think of like three of them, you're a genius. It 140 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 3: seems like a similar situation anytime humans want to mess 141 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 3: with the ecosystem with the introduction or removal of certain species. 142 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 3: They are the things that you know can occur or 143 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 3: likely will occur if you change it. But then there 144 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 3: are all these additional ripple effects that you cannot necessarily predict. 145 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: Right, So it's not the case that breaking one link 146 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: in the chain necessarily shatters the whole chain, but it 147 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: does change the chain, and you might not like the 148 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: way it changes. Yeah, So we don't always know what's 149 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: going to happen when one species is taken out of 150 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: the equation, and in fact, we can assume the organisms 151 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: in question don't know either. And what's more than that, 152 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: the algorithm of evolution itself, in the metaphorical sense that 153 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: it can know anything, cannot be said to know in 154 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: advance what will result from extinctions, which is why so 155 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: many organisms evolve sort of dangerous precarious relationships. May in 156 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:33,119 Speaker 1: many cases, organisms evolve unbreakable dependencies on another specific organism. 157 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: For example, a predator that is specialized to eat only 158 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: one type of prey. If that prey organism disappears, the 159 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: predator is doomed. Or a plant that relies on a 160 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: specific animal to help it pollinate and reproduce. One common 161 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: example cited here are yucca plants and yucca moths, which 162 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: both rely on one another in a system known as 163 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,239 Speaker 1: obligate mutualism. You know, yucca plants have to be pollinated 164 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: by yukama and yuka moth larvae grow in the yucca 165 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: plants and grow by eating some, but not all, of 166 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,599 Speaker 1: the yucca seeds. And though with the yucca plant the 167 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: yuca moth the relationship goes both ways, some of these 168 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: relationships don't go both ways. Sometimes they're only one way. Again, 169 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: the predator that can only eat one species for food. 170 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: So while these highly dependent relationships can be helpful specializations 171 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: at a specific time in a specific environment, they're good 172 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: for helping you survive. Now, they're sort of analogous to 173 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: like putting all of your life savings in a single stock. 174 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: You know, like if the company's doing well, that's great 175 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: for you, but if it goes bankrupt, you lose everything. 176 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 1: And sometimes evolution selects for creatures that do not have 177 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: diverse survival strategies, you know, they're all in on a 178 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: single ecological partner. And this brings us back to Gould's 179 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: essay where he talks about a couple of examples where 180 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: we see what happens to a pair of species that 181 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: either depend on each other or one depends on the 182 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: other in this way the odd couples of the essays 183 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 1: title what happens to them after a sudden disruption? And 184 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: one of the examples he talks about is a hermit crab. 185 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: So Gould recounts some of his days as a graduate 186 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: student when he was writing his PhD dissertation on the 187 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: land snails of Bermuda. So he was in Bermuda, and 188 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: he says while he was exploring the shores and the 189 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: beaches there, he would quite often come across hermit crabs, 190 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: but not just any hermit crabs, large hermit crabs crammed 191 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: into a shell that was way too small for them. 192 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: He would talk about, like their big claw protruding out 193 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: of the shell. And he says that these tiny shells 194 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: that they were trying to fit into were shells of 195 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: the narrated snail, which he points out includes what he 196 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: calls quote the familiar bleeding tooth. 197 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 3: That was not. 198 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: Familiar to me. I had no idea what he's talking 199 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: about with the bleed tooth there. I had to look 200 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: that up, and so I'll come back to that in 201 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: a minute. 202 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 3: I can't wait. 203 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: But on the general subject of the narratid snails, this 204 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: is a fairly lengthy digression, but I had to look 205 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: up this animal because they came up a couple of times. 206 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: We talked about narratids in the first episode of this series, 207 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,599 Speaker 1: and I didn't really know anything about them. So I 208 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,359 Speaker 1: looked them up and I found some interesting backstory. Narratids 209 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 1: or Nartes are named after a minor sea god from 210 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,839 Speaker 1: Greek mythology who was called Narraties, and it seems that 211 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: the main written source on the narratives myths is the 212 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: second to third century Roman author Alien in his book 213 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: on the Nature of Animals. I think this specific text 214 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: came up in a series we did not too long 215 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: ago on beavers, because Alien is the source of the 216 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: ancient story about how male beavers would bite off their 217 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 1: own testicles and offer them up to hunters to make 218 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: the hunter stop chasing them. I believe we judge this 219 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: story not true. But Alien has a lot of interesting 220 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 1: animal facts of that kind. But he also has some 221 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: backstory on the narrated sea snails. So I'm going to 222 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: alternately quote from and summarize Alien's text here. This is 223 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: from the af Skolfield translation of Aliens on the nature 224 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: of animals. He writes, quote, there is in the sea 225 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: a shellfish with a spiral shell, small in size but 226 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: of surpassing beauty. And it is born where the water 227 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: is at it's purest, and upon rocks beneath the sea, 228 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 1: and on what are called sunken reefs. Its name is Nrites. 229 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: Then this was funny. He goes on to make some 230 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: excuses for why it is okay that he's about to 231 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: tell a couple of stories in the middle of this 232 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: very serious book. He says, it is going to sweeten 233 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: the work. 234 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 3: So okay, Yeah, like a little bit of a little 235 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 3: bit of lead sprinkled into your wine, right. 236 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: Exactly, Yeah, the lead sugar. So anyway, there are two 237 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: stories about how this animal came to exist, and in 238 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 1: both cases the stories trace back to an extremely handsome, 239 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: hyper hunk deity named Nerides, who is the son of 240 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: the sea god Nereus and of the sea goddess Doris, 241 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: the daughter of Okeanos. So in the first story we 242 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: learned that Narides was so overwhelmingly handsome that he became 243 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: the favorite of the goddess Aphrodite, and she fell in 244 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: love with him. And Elien writes quote, and when the 245 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: faded time arrived, at which at the bidding of the 246 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: father of the gods, Aphrodite also had to be enrolled 247 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: among the Olympians. I have heard that she ascended and 248 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: wished to bring her companion and playfellow Benrides. But the 249 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: story goes that he refused, preferring life with his sisters 250 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: and parents to Olympus. And then he was permitted to 251 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: grow wings. This I imagine was a gift from Aphrodite. 252 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: But even this favor he counted as nothing. And so 253 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: the daughter of Zeus was moved to anger and transformed 254 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: his shape into this shell, and if her own accord, 255 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: chose in his place for her attendant and servant, Aros, 256 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: who was also young and beautiful, and to him she 257 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: gave the wings of Narrites. 258 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 3: Very spiteful, like, very much like, much like her father. 259 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: That that's true. So Narides liked his home in the sea. 260 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: He was not ready to move in with Aphrodite's family 261 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: on the mountain. So, you know, even though she gave 262 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: him wings and everything, he didn't want to budge. So 263 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: she transformed him into a sea snail out of revenge. 264 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: And it's interesting it says specifically that he was transformed 265 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: into the shell. I assume that means the whole animal, 266 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: including the snail. It would be funny if it just 267 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: transformed him into the shell and a snail had to 268 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: live in him. 269 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 3: But that would very much fit with a lot of 270 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 3: what we've been talking about with hermikers. 271 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: I guess that's true, And so this story kind of 272 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: matches the general form of these Greco Roman metamorphosis stories. 273 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: You know, somebody offends a god in some way and 274 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: they're transformed into something else. But I was wondering, like 275 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: why a snail in particular. I'm not sure if I'm 276 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: missing something about this story, but I feel like Alien's 277 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: next story has a little bit more of a hint 278 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: about that element, like why he would be transformed into 279 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: a snail. So the next story starts the same Nerides 280 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: was a young, extremely handsome see god, but this time 281 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: instead of becoming the favorite of Aphrodite, he becomes the 282 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: favorite of Poseidon, and he becomes Poseidon's chariotear so, Elian 283 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: writes quote when Poseidon drove his chariot over the waves, 284 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: all other great fishes, as well as dolphins and tritons too, 285 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: sprang up from their deep haunts and gamboled and danced 286 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: around the chariot, only to be left utterly and far 287 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: behind by the speed of his horses. Only the boy 288 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: favorite was his escort close at hand, and before them 289 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: the waves sank to rest, and the sea parted out 290 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: of reverence to Poseidon, for the god willed that his 291 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: beautiful favorite should not only be highly esteemed for other reasons, 292 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: but should also be pre eminent at swimming. But the 293 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: story goes from here that Helios, the sun god, was 294 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 1: jealous of the speed of Neriodes and transformed him into 295 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: the snail with the spiral shell. And Helian says, commenting 296 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: on the story here, that he doesn't know why Helios 297 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: was angry at Nridies, but guesses that either Poseidon and 298 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: Helios are enemies, or perhaps that Helios was jealous that 299 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: the handsome guy was down in the sea. With Poseidon 300 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: instead of flying among the stars with him. 301 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, really standard god drama right here. 302 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: But exactly. But in this version at least, Nrides is 303 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: known for being fast, right, so he's fast, and then 304 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: he's trans formed into a snail. Something seems more fittingly 305 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: ironic about that punishment. 306 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 3: Oh yes, yes, you're right. 307 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: Remember Aristotle actually mentions narrities when he's talking about the 308 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: shells that hermit crabs occupy. But anyway, these snails today, 309 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: they are a family of gastropods that are found in 310 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: all types of water. They're found in freshwater, brackish water, 311 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: and salt water. Their diet most of the time consists 312 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: of algae that they eat off of rock surfaces and 313 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: the waters that crawl around on a rock sort of 314 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: scraping up algae and eating it. And they tend to 315 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: be pretty small. They're sort of considered small to medium snails. 316 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 1: So it is quite pitiable to imagine, as Gould describes, 317 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: a population of hermit crabs where even fairly large individuals 318 00:18:46,119 --> 00:19:00,360 Speaker 1: are trying desperately to cram into these tiny shells. Now, 319 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 1: the one thing I said it was going to come 320 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: back to was that nearte that Gould mentions by name 321 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: in his essay the so called bleeding tooth, he doesn't 322 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: say anything else about it. So I got curious about 323 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: this as well, and I found a good photo with 324 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: some interpretive text on the website for the Bailey Matthews 325 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: National Shell Museum in Florida, USA. Rob I attached the 326 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: pictures for you to look at here. And first of all, 327 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: I gotta give credit to whoever named this, because they're 328 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: right on the money. It does look like a pair 329 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: of bloody teeth. Absolutely disgusting. 330 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 3: This is easily the most disgusting shell I've ever seen. 331 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 3: Usually I'm a big shell fan. Yeah, no matter what 332 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 3: kind of creature lives inside it, Like show me the 333 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 3: shell and yeah, it's generally pretty stunning, or even a 334 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 3: very plain shell is pleasant to behold. This this is gross. 335 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 3: This looks like misshapen teeth emerging from inflamed and recessed gums. 336 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: It's what like the dentist would scare the children with 337 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: on The Simpsons. 338 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you'll see brochures with images like this. Yeah, 339 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 3: your local dentist office makes me kind of want to 340 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 3: make a fake brochure with images of the shell and 341 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 3: just sort of slip them in among the other brochures 342 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 3: next time I go. 343 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: It makes me want to leave this session and go 344 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: like brush and floss right now. 345 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, we can take five dental. 346 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: Health anyway, so yeah, you can look these up. The 347 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: bleeding tooth near eight. Anyway, This is on the inside 348 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: of the shell orifice. You can imagine it's kind of 349 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: a spiral and it's got the opening. So if you're 350 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 1: looking at the opening, the side of the aperture that 351 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: is closest to the central column or axis of the shell, 352 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: that's where the bloody looking teeth are. And the museum 353 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: page says that this is the species Narida pelloranta, and 354 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: it's a snail commonly found on shores throughout the Caribbean 355 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: and Florida. It reaches a maximum of about two inches 356 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: or about fifty millimeters in size, and in an interesting 357 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: parallel to the shell remodeling we saw in some land 358 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: dwelling hermit crabs, the bleeding tooth snail will sometimes dissolve 359 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: the interior surfaces of its own shell to give itself 360 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: more space inside and also to make room for a 361 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: kind of a water tank reserve, to make room to 362 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: retain reserves of water inside the shell, which is apparently 363 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: useful for the snail during low tide. 364 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, this is essential to what we were talking 365 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 3: about in the first episode here on hermit crabs, about 366 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 3: the chemical and physical augmentation of the shells that hermit 367 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 3: crabs use. And so most of the shells that hermit 368 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 3: crabs are competing for have been augmented, have been remodeled. 369 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's interesting that I think we've uncovered at 370 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: least two different ways now, sort of initially hidden ways 371 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: that you might not know about just by looking at them, 372 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: that some hermit crabs have evolved the same at aptations 373 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,239 Speaker 1: to shell life as the snails that originally made the 374 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: shells they inhabit. So the first example we talked about 375 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: was hermit crabs evolving asymmetrically sized claws, so they can 376 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: use one claw as an operculum, which means an aperture 377 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: covering a door to close a hole, and they use 378 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: that larger claw to close the whole of the shell 379 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: when they retreat inside. And the parallel with the snails 380 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: is that many snails have the same adaptation. It's part 381 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: of their bodies. They often have a hard plate called 382 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: an operculum that closes over the shell aperture when the 383 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: snail goes inside to hide. So like the hermit crabs 384 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: evolutionarily recreated that function with their claws. And now we 385 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: see examples of both snails and later hermit crabs that 386 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: inhabit the same types of snail shells, taking a calcified 387 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: shell of a fixed size and then dissolving some of 388 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: the interior surfaces of that shell to make more room 389 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: or make it better suit their needs. 390 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's amazing. 391 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: But anyway, so after this whole narratid digression, coming back 392 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 1: to Gould and his essay, so he says that he 393 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: saw all these hermit crabs in Bermuda trying to survive 394 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: by cramming their big old bodies into the shells of 395 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: narrotied snails which were way too small for them. But 396 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: then he says, one day he came across one of 397 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: these larger hermit crabs with a better fitting shell, a 398 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: much bigger shell. And this was not from a narrotied snail, 399 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: but in this case from a whlk. It was a 400 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: species called Sitarium pica, commonly known as the West Indian 401 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: top shell, and this is a larger variety of sea 402 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: snail which is eating his food in many places throughout 403 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: the Caribbean. But when Gould went in for a better look, 404 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: he realized that the sitarium shell occupied by this hermit 405 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: crab was no ordinary gastropod shell. It was a fossil. Yeah, 406 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: a living crab inside a fossil shell. So Gould writes 407 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: that it seemed the fossil had probably been dislodged by 408 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: the tide from an ancient sand dune where the original 409 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: shell was deposited roughly one hundred and twenty thousand years ago, 410 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: probably deposited there by an ancestral hermit crab. So hermit 411 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: crab takes the shell out of the water up to 412 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: this area, it gets buried in sand, it gets fossilized, 413 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: and then one hundred and twenty thousand years later the 414 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,719 Speaker 1: fossil comes out and a hermit crab claims it. 415 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 3: That is amazing. I mean, you would hope that he 416 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 3: would get those specially antique car tags for that shell. Right. 417 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: So Gould continued to study the hermit crabs in the 418 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: following months, and he saw that most of them were 419 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: confined to these cramped narrative shells, but the few lucky 420 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: animals to possess a welk shell always turned out to 421 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: be living in a fossil. So Gould did some library 422 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: research and he disc that he wasn't the first person 423 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: actually to make this observation. He had been beaten to 424 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: it by the Yale taxonomist Addison E. Verel in the 425 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: year nineteen oh seven. So what on earth was going 426 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: on here? Well? Gould found that veryl had had researched 427 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: the same issue, and VERYL had gone back through the 428 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: history of Bermuda to try to find references to these 429 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: welks to see if anybody recorded ever seeing them alive. 430 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: And it turns out that some of the earliest written 431 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: records of the island actually do mention the welks. So 432 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: here to read from Gould. Quote Captain John Smith, for example, 433 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: recorded the fate of one crew member during the Great 434 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: Famine of sixteen fourteen to sixteen fifteen. Quote one amongst 435 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: the rest hid himself in the woods and lived only 436 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: on wilkes and land crabs, fat and lusty many months. 437 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: Is that fat and lusty? Is that describing the whelks 438 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: and the land crabs or just the land crabs or 439 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: the guy who is eating them. 440 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 3: I think this is the guy eating them. I just 441 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 3: imagine just laying about, fat and lusty, just stuffed with these. 442 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: Creatures snail and crab for many months. 443 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. 444 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 1: Wreck, that's so bad. Gould goes on to say, quote 445 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: another crew member stated that they made cement for the 446 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: seams of their vessels by mixing lime from burned welk 447 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: shells with turtle oil. Okay, so some of the earliest 448 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: references to these animals are people eating them and grinding 449 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,959 Speaker 1: them up and burning the shells to make cement. And 450 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: then also the last evidence that veryl could find of 451 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: living Satarium welks in Bermuda was quote from kitchen middens 452 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: of British soldiers stationed on Bermuda during the War of 453 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: eighteen twelve. So yum military rations including a lot of 454 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: sea snail here. 455 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 3: All right, we can definitely see where all this is going. 456 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, because apparently no record of them turned up in 457 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: the many years since then. It appears that while these 458 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: sea snails the welks still exist elsewhere, they were locally 459 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: extinct in Bermuda. So Gould observes another one of these 460 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: scenarios kind of like the post apocalyptic movie we talked 461 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 1: about in the first episode, where in that case it 462 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: was the land hermit crabs fighting over a scarce pool 463 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: of these highly desirable, already remodeled shells because they want 464 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: the remodeled one so much more than an unremodeled one, 465 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: you know, fighting over those rather than spending a lot 466 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: of time actually remodeling new shells, which I think you 467 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: said was mainly the work of much younger crabs. 468 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, that's my understanding. So, yeah, in this case, 469 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 3: they would be in a position to where the desired 470 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 3: shells are no longer around or around and such short 471 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 3: supply due to human interference that they have but one option, right. 472 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: Right, So the shells they really want, or at least 473 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: once they get larger, the shells they really want, are 474 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 1: an extremely scarce resource. There are maybe some shells still 475 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 1: kicking around within the hermit crab economy, though Gold says, 476 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: you know, he never came across those, but he says 477 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: that they're still recycling shells of the previous centuries from 478 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: before these animals were wiped out. And these shells, you know, 479 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 1: they're strong, but they don't last forever. They get battered 480 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: around by the waves, they get knocked on rocks, they 481 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: get damaged. Over time, stuff happens to them. So that 482 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: supply is going down, and the only options they have 483 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: other than that, which apparently those are already very rare, 484 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: are these quote new shells which are actually fossil shells 485 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: coming down from the fossil dunes like they come out 486 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: of the earth sometimes, or these tiny narrative shells which 487 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: are too small for them. So yeah, it's a kind 488 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: of it's a kind of sad situation there. And he 489 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: actually does make exactly the comparison that we made in 490 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: the previous episode to kind of like a like a 491 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: post apocalyptic Mad Max scenario where it's just this dwindling 492 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: supply of original resources being fought over, and it probably 493 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: means that the you know, the hermit crabs in this 494 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,959 Speaker 1: specific location do not have a bright future ahead. This 495 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: essay is from I don't know, probably the late seventies 496 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: or around nineteen eighty. I don't know exactly what their 497 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: their status is now. 498 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, because you know, I imagine the fossilized shells were heavier, 499 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 3: you know, they were at any rate, they would not 500 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 3: be ideal, but they are close enough, and they're they're 501 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 3: all that the crabs can upgrade to in this case. 502 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 3: So that's that's fascinating. It's also one can't help but 503 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 3: sort of put a fantastic spin on it and imagine 504 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 3: the hermit crabs gathering and they they're like, the humans 505 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 3: have have destroyed our pri shells. We have no choice 506 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 3: but to retrieve the fossil shells that of course may 507 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 3: resonate with ourcane powers. Well, that's fascinating. I had no 508 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 3: idea that we had We had hermit crabs trooping about 509 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 3: in fossilized shells. That's amazing. 510 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, if you get a chance 511 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: to read the Goold essay, the thing about hermit crabs 512 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: is only the first half of it. The second half 513 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: is actually an interesting sort of meta story about science 514 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: because the second half is about another relationship, one that 515 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: is alleged to have existed between the dodo and a 516 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: plant that had an obligate relationship with the dodo, and 517 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: how that allegedly would have affected the plant when the 518 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: dodo was driven to extinction by human activity. But that 519 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: story actually has a PostScript in the essay because it's 520 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: then later research came along to challenge the suggestion that 521 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: it was the extinction of the dodo that affected the 522 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: plant in the story. So overall, it's an interest essay. 523 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: You want to, I guess, find the version with the 524 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: PostScript that hashes out all of the bait and controversy 525 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: about that second story. 526 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 3: All right, for the last phase of this episode, I 527 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 3: want to dive a little bit more into mythology concerning 528 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 3: Hermi krab. So we've discussed crabs in the show before, obviously, 529 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 3: and we've touched on the times surprising lack of supernatural 530 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 3: and divine crabs in global traditions. We touched on a 531 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 3: few examples, the more notable examples in our twenty twenty 532 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 3: one episode on crabs eating weird Stuff. I can't remember 533 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,479 Speaker 3: what title we went with on that that it might 534 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 3: be the actual title, but we talked about the various 535 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 3: things that crabs eat and the curious ways that they 536 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 3: eat the stuff. You know, they basically like take it apart. 537 00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 3: It's like reverse three D printing with their tiny feelers 538 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 3: and enough parts. But in that for instance, we also 539 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 3: mentioned another example. It's not really an example of a 540 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 3: mythology about a lobster, but the invocation of mythology and 541 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 3: the naming of in this case, the squat lobster Kiwa hirsuta. 542 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,239 Speaker 3: This is actually a species that I mentioned briefly in 543 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 3: one of the previous episodes, and it's named after a 544 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 3: Maori see god. So again not a direct connection to mythology, 545 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 3: but like an invocation of mythology. But I was wondering 546 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 3: once more about all this. I was like, okay, are 547 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 3: there any myths or folk tales involving the hermit crab? 548 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 3: And once more not. A lot of examples came up, 549 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 3: and you can, you know, you can probably tease that 550 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 3: apart different ways, that hermit crabs are just ubiquitous in 551 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 3: certain areas and therefore not deserving of such treatment, or 552 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 3: in other areas they're just not known and therefore they're 553 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 3: not invoked. Or you know, there's plenty of room too 554 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 3: for things to just become lost. Not everything that that 555 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 3: indigenous peoples and ancient people's thought and believe have been 556 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 3: passed down to us. But I did find some interesting 557 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 3: thoughts about how hermit crabs maybe just maybe fit into 558 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 3: the Mayan pantheon. 559 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: Oh interesting. 560 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 3: So of note is a particular God depicted in the 561 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 3: Mayan Codeses, those folding books written by the pre Columbian 562 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 3: Maya civilization in Mayan hieroglyphic script that survived colonial destruction, 563 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,479 Speaker 3: and this particular God is often cataloged as God In. 564 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 3: That is not what worshippers have said God would have 565 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 3: called this God, but historians and researchers would classify them 566 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 3: as such. So God In but also known under the 567 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 3: names Bakab as well as sometimes the name Palutan. Now, 568 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 3: according to the article Maya Creator Gods by Ka Bassi, 569 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 3: God In and the Mayan Creator God God, It's Zamna, 570 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 3: which is also known as God D in this classification system, 571 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 3: these may be different incarnations of the same God. Furthermore, 572 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 3: it seems that there were four different incarnations of God in, 573 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 3: one for each cardinal direction, and these are often referred 574 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 3: to as not just the Cab but the Bacabs, but 575 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 3: also they are all the Bacab. Essentially, this is like 576 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 3: a fourfold God, and so this particular God is associated 577 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 3: with four directions, four colors, four cosmic pillars, but also 578 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 3: with the Earth's interior and with its water reserves. Now, 579 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 3: as Bassie points out, there are various visual depictions of bacab, 580 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 3: often as a kind of like human with almond shaped eyes, 581 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 3: sometimes with a water lily headdress, other times a net 582 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 3: bag headdress. But other times this god is depicted as 583 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 3: wearing or inhabiting a turtle shell. Sometimes they take on 584 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,479 Speaker 3: avian features. They are also sometimes presented as an old 585 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 3: man or perhaps an old possum. They also are sometimes 586 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:16,959 Speaker 3: depicted as quote wearing a spiral shell or emerging from it. Now, Joe, 587 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 3: I did not include images of this for you here 588 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 3: in our outlined because these are these are very hieroglyphic 589 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 3: in nature, and they don't necessarily read easily to the 590 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 3: untrained eye. But the Bessie does include various examples of 591 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 3: what they're talking about here now in this paper, the 592 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 3: researchers has not mentioned crabs or hermit crabs at all. 593 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 3: But I did run across some musings by doctor Nicholas 594 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:50,919 Speaker 3: Helmuth on a website that is mayathno zoology dot org. 595 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 3: This is a This website is a project of the 596 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 3: biodiversity educational organization f l A ar meso America. He's 597 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 3: an expert in Mayan iconography out of Guatemala. He discusses 598 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 3: that there are various representations of God in slash Pahutan 599 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 3: slash bacabre. There's the turtle shell emergent variant, and then 600 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 3: there's this version where the God is within a shell. 601 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 3: Sometimes it's described as a spiral snail shell, other times 602 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 3: it's described as a conk shell. A conk, will remind you, 603 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,800 Speaker 3: is a variety of c snail, known for its shell 604 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 3: as well as sometimes for its meat. It's often used 605 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 3: in a lot of you'll find it in like chowders 606 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 3: or stews, sometimes fried up as well. So the author 607 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 3: here points out that while the shell is often glossed 608 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 3: over by researchers, you know, people will says it's a shell, 609 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 3: you know, maybe a snail, maybe a conk. I mean, 610 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 3: we don't know. But he points out that okay, it 611 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 3: would be It would be nice to know. It would 612 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 3: be it would be whove our understanding of mind culture 613 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,879 Speaker 3: to specify snailshell or conk shell, both of which would 614 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 3: have been known to the Mayans. He also stresses that 615 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 3: certainly the Mayans and the Aztecs alike, we're capable, you know, 616 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 3: very much of creating imagined combinations of beings. So it's 617 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 3: it's not one of those situations where there has to 618 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 3: be this one thing that directly feeds into the idea, 619 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 3: and then of course there are many other sorts of 620 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 3: shells to consider. But you know, it's basically it's an 621 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 3: interesting question coming from an individual here who is, I 622 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 3: believe you know, on one hand, very interested in myn iconography, 623 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 3: but also devoted to various projects that involve classifying and 624 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 3: chronicling the biodiversity of the region. Anyway, he stresses that 625 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 3: a great deal of additional research needs to be done 626 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 3: in this area. But he ponders whether the model for 627 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 3: God in might have been a hermit crab, if not 628 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 3: for the God entirely, at least for one phase of 629 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,839 Speaker 3: the deity, one of the four aspects. 630 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,760 Speaker 1: Of bakad Ah. That's interesting. So yeah, so like because 631 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: if you see a spiral shell, one that you might 632 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 1: be to to to assume it is supposed to be 633 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: associated with the animal that creates the shell originally, but 634 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: the shell is equally associated with the animals that inhabit 635 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:10,959 Speaker 1: it after the original animals are dead. 636 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so this this got me really excited. But 637 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 3: then sadly he doesn't have much to say about the idea, 638 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 3: because basically it was like, well, you know, maybe this 639 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 3: is something we can look into later. But it was 640 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 3: just enough to sort of, you know, to inspire me 641 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 3: a little bit and think, well, yeah, what are the 642 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 3: possibilities there? And does it mean like that the god 643 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 3: occupies different housings like the turtle shell and then the 644 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 3: snail or conk shell. I don't think that's necessarily the case, 645 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 3: or more likely that like just one phase of the 646 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 3: entity is perhaps based on a hermit crab. And he 647 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 3: also points out that like he's like, I can't be 648 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 3: the only person who has thought of this idea, and 649 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 3: yet I can't really find any other references to it. 650 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 3: And I looked around. I couldn't really either. But I 651 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 3: did find mention of the hermit crab's mythologic significance in 652 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 3: a paper titled late post Classical Ritual at Santa Rita Corrazol, Belize, 653 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 3: Understanding the Archaeology of a Maya Capital City. This is 654 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 3: by Diane Z. Chase and Arlen F. Chase. This is 655 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 3: published in Research Reports in Belizean Archaeology. So Chase and 656 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 3: Chase point out that they're basically this paper deals with 657 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 3: an analysis of depictions of various animals in Mayan iconography. 658 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,919 Speaker 3: They point out that there are several animals that seem 659 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 3: to represent the underworld and the surface of sort of 660 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 3: the surface level of our reality, like the borderland between 661 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 3: the the I guess you could call it the natural 662 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 3: world or the visual the visual world and the world 663 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,959 Speaker 3: of the unseen, and furthermore that these animals could take 664 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 3: on supernatural significance as entities that can travel between those 665 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 3: worlds or travel at the very barrier of those worlds. 666 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 3: They specify the turtle, and of course we already talked 667 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:12,359 Speaker 3: about the turtle significance in a Mayan iconography depicting this 668 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 3: particular deity, but also the cayman, the shark, specifically the 669 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 3: shark's fin as it breaks the surface of the water. 670 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 3: Like here's an organism that is literally in both worlds 671 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,800 Speaker 3: at the same time. And they reference the hermit crab, 672 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 3: so they point out that, Okay, the hermit crab does 673 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 3: not really live at that boundary point. It's not like 674 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 3: the fin of the shark where it's poking through or anything. 675 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 3: It's not like the turtle coming up for air. But 676 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,720 Speaker 3: they do stress that hermit crabs across many species, of course, 677 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 3: are found both on the shore and underwater. Plus, as 678 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 3: we've discussed, we know that terrestrial hermit crabs are still 679 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,280 Speaker 3: intrinsically bound to the ocean. Well, I mean, the reproduction 680 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 3: depends upon it, so they are not one hundred percent terrestrial. 681 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,399 Speaker 3: They are still creatures of the ocean that live upon 682 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,359 Speaker 3: the land. So they reference the creatures as well in 683 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 3: comparison to various ceremonial urns, the lids of which are 684 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 3: not merely lids, but represent the surface of the visible 685 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 3: world or this barrier between our visible world and the 686 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 3: world of the unseen, which in this case would be 687 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,280 Speaker 3: like the interior of the urn, the interior of this vessel, 688 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,319 Speaker 3: you know, just as the surface of the water, both 689 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,240 Speaker 3: from the standpoint of you know, a surface versus aquatic life, 690 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:39,879 Speaker 3: as well as just symbolic thinking. Is this barrier point? Ah? 691 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: That is interesting and yeah, and the hermit crab not 692 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 1: only is an animal that could inhabit a kind of 693 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 1: boundary environment, but also crosses from inside to outside in 694 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 1: that way, you know, crosses from the inside of its 695 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: shell to the outside to crawl around. 696 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So I'm left trying to imagine the hermit 697 00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,839 Speaker 3: crab is kind of a psychopomp, kind of of an 698 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 3: like a creature that is here to guide you through 699 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 3: to the underworld. I mean that's I don't think that's 700 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 3: what the authors were directly getting at here, but still 701 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 3: this idea of the hermit crab is this kind of 702 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 3: creature with an innate understanding of the threshold between our 703 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 3: world and the next. You know, is this creature that 704 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 3: travels both sides. And like I said, I think I 705 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 3: referenced in the first episode. You know, I saw the 706 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 3: terrestrial hermit crabs in Belize, and then when I went 707 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 3: in Snorkeling, I also saw at least one aquatic hermit 708 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,719 Speaker 3: crab underwater, And so there is kind of a sense 709 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 3: of like, hey, you're under here too. You guys are 710 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,799 Speaker 3: all over the place. You get around, you know what 711 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 3: it is to travel between worlds. 712 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: And apparently across time as well. Sometimes living in the 713 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 1: house forged one hundred thousand years ago. 714 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it is interesting to think of all this 715 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 3: like commared to those other animals are just reference Like, 716 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 3: you know, the sea turtle, for instance, is very majestic 717 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,839 Speaker 3: to behold in the water. Can imagine this is an 718 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 3: interdimensional dimensional traveler. Likewise, the cayman and the shark may 719 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,839 Speaker 3: take on even sinister qualities like yeah, of course these 720 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 3: are creatures that have ventured into the underworld. But the 721 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,400 Speaker 3: hermit crabs, you know, they just seem very busy. They 722 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 3: seem too busy to really waste much time in instructing 723 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 3: you about the barrier between worlds. 724 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 1: Well, Rob, I have greatly enjoyed this exploration of hermit crabs, 725 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 1: and I feel like we may have to come back 726 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:29,319 Speaker 1: to them because I know there's a lot of stuff 727 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: we didn't even get to. Yeah. 728 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, again, this is a thriving area of scientific research. 729 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 3: New discoveries are taking place, new papers are coming out 730 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 3: all the time, So yeah, we might return to the 731 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 3: world of hermit crabs in the future. We'll definitely return 732 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 3: to the world of crabs. You know, it ain't the 733 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,839 Speaker 3: holidays unless we're talking about crabs. All right, We're gonna 734 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 3: go ahead and close it out here. We'd love to 735 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 3: hear from everyone out there if you have observations concerning 736 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 3: hermit crabs, if you have insight on any of the 737 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 3: topic we've discussed in these episodes, write in. We would 738 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,000 Speaker 3: love to hear from you. Just a reminder that Stuff 739 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 3: to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science podcast, with 740 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,279 Speaker 3: core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We do listener mail 741 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,800 Speaker 3: on Mondays, we do a short form episode on Wednesdays, 742 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:15,960 Speaker 3: and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to 743 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 3: just talk about a weird movie on Weird House Cinema. 744 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 3: Sometimes there are giant crabs involved. We'll also remind you, hey, 745 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,960 Speaker 3: if you haven't rated and reviewed the podcast somewhere that 746 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,520 Speaker 3: allows you to do that, go pop in there, give 747 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,400 Speaker 3: us a nice helping of stars, and let's see if 748 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,880 Speaker 3: you listen to the podcast on an Apple device or 749 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 3: through Apple Podcasts or what have you. Maybe just pop 750 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 3: in there and make sure that you're still subscribed and 751 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:43,759 Speaker 3: that you are in fact receiving downloads. 752 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 753 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,359 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 754 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 755 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hi, 756 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 757 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. 758 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 759 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 760 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:31,400 Speaker 2: or wherever you're listen to your favorite shows.