00:00:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to Had of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, and today we're talking about why mental health is financial health with Asia Evans.

00:00:27
Speaker 2: And so the fundamentals of personal finance, they're not all that complicated, right, Like, there is a reason why we came up with the money gears, just seven easy steps that you can take with your money. You could probably boil it down even more, right like spend less than you make invest the rest. And so while the core principles of growing wealth are fairly simple, and why aren't more Americans handling their money better? Well, one reason is because we as individuals are incredibly complex. We are not simple, and that complexity can lead to just to disconnect between what it is that we know that we should be doing with our money and then what it is that we actually end up doing. And sometimes we need someone to guide us, which is why we're very excited to be talking with Asia Evans. Asia is a licensed mental health counselor with over ten years of experience, and she works to help people to move towards financial wellness by understanding their relationship with money. She also folks to understand their money mindset and how their feelings impact what it is that they do with their money and Asia. She even says on her site that chatting about money and feelings is her superpower. That's the intersection that she sits at. So, Asia, we are very excited to be talking with you today to.

00:01:39
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me the wonder woman of money and feelings, Asia Evans, Hey, I like it. Yeah, right, that's branding right there. You feel free to steal that? The first question that was free, right. The first question we ask everyone who comes on the show is how they like to splurge, because it tells us a little something about about them.

00:01:58
Speaker 3: Right.

00:01:58
Speaker 1: Matt and I were all about, say I mean and investing for our future. But if you're not having fun in the present simultaneously, then what are you doing right? And so what what is that for you? What do you like to splore John in the here and now while you're also being intentional about saving for your future.

00:02:11
Speaker 3: I really love to go out to eat and spend my money on delicious eats, whether they are fancy eats, casual eats, quick eats. Me and my husband took a flight to Copenhagen right before COVID actually, and we got to go to Noma and got reservations for Noma.

00:02:31
Speaker 1: Yeah wow, fancy did you forage for your own dinner or do they forage for it for you?

00:02:37
Speaker 3: I mean you walk through the gardens and you walk through everything. So gosh, it was the high like the culinary highlight of my life currently. I cried.

00:02:45
Speaker 2: It was yeah soon, man, that's I think that's one of Kate's bucket list items that she is not going to be able to for that.

00:02:55
Speaker 3: We really, like two of us on the computer we are on vacation at the time, and put like calendar alerts. Yeah, we fought for that reservation.

00:03:03
Speaker 2: I love it. Okay, Well, let's immediately get practical as like, how is it that you actually gave your self permission to spend that money? Because that's not a cheap dinner. You say that you like, you know, casual eats as well, this is not a casually. This is very expensive and panadas on the street. Yeah, how do you do that? How do you do that there without feeling guilty? Like do you just have a maybe a dollar amount that you're willing to say, all right, we're gonna earmark this money. We're on vacation. Is there a rule of thumb, like, how is it that maybe some guidance that you could give listeners?

00:03:32
Speaker 3: Sure, So I think it really depends on what's important to you and what's a priority in your life for you and your yourself or your family. For us, getting something like that reservation is already difficult, and we knew that if we were able to get the reservation, like, we're making peace with whatever it is that we're spending because this is literally a once in a lifetime situation and scenario. So knowing that that huge experience was not going to be something that would easily come around again, was allowed both of us to feel comfortable spending that what I will say is an absorbitent amount of money for dinner and a flight and staying there. So I think that something like that, I just am totally okay spending the money because that is something that I will think about forever, and that we did it together and we did it with friends, which was even better.

00:04:24
Speaker 2: It was just it was.

00:04:27
Speaker 3: It was the best. So when it comes to doing a trip like that once in a lifetime, I can justify we knew what was coming, we had saved for it, we were ready to make that decision, and you know, swipe the card if you will. But for other decisions when it's kind of like, hey, this is a restaurant that's closer to home. I live very close to New York City, so that too, can get really pricey. Even if you're not trying to you know, break the bank or do too much with your spending, it can really add up quickly. But we know that that's something that brings us joy, and we have an allotted amount of money that we feel comfortable with spending a month on things of that nature. So if it's hey, let's get that quick empanada on the street, or we're at the farmer's market and these heirloom tomatoes look really great, or hey, let's go hire a babysitter and let's have a date night because we haven't gone out in a while. We have certain amounts of money that we feel comfortable spending with that, and I think we really learned, I will say, kind of the hard way, from when we lived in New York City proper we lived in Brooklyn, we were really we're really spending it, spending a ton of money. So when we moved out and had kids, you know, your finances have to change, So it's an easy sacrifice sometimes when you know what you lived like before and what you're sacrificing for now.

00:05:47
Speaker 1: You know, I learned pretty quickly from a few of my first awesome trips that I went on. I was in my hyper frugal phase. I just refused to spend on certain things. And I came home from the trip and I was like, I didn't even have like one. It was fun and I saw some cool stuff, but I made it a goal to pay for one experience every time I'm somewhere, and so like for me, I'm the first trip I'm thinking about that where I kind of implemented that was I went on a motorized hang gliding tour in Maui, and that made all the difference. I look back to that and I'm like, that is what I remember now about my Maui experience. And if I had just and if it had just been the beaches in the community and all that other stuff, it would have been one thing. But it was like now, that experience sticks out in my head. So I think budgeting for that and implementing that is helpful and it helps facilitate those memories which are so important too, about like the future value of that trip. I'm curious, how do you help folks think through spending for saving for investing their money, Like saving is really just deferred spending, Like we're hoping that at some point or we're assuming that at some point in the future, we're gonna need to spend that money. So how do we mentally negotiate the trade off of spending now versus having more money to spend in the future. Hyper frugal people will be like, ah, at this sort of return rate, I'm gonna have this much more money in the future, And that is true, but you also have to think about being able to buy the things that matter now too, right.

00:07:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. So one of what I would call like a founding principle or value that I have with my work is that I want people to live their best lives. I want people to feel like they can show up as their most authentic self. And if your most authentic self wants to have an experience, then we need to figure out how we prioritize that. So I tend to lead with the emotional first, and lead with what's important to you? What are your values as a person and then how do we translate that into how you use and behave with your money so that you are able to prioritize. Hey, having a budget or a spending plan is really important because we have these financial goals that mirror what our personal values are, what our values as a family are, so then we can enact whatever we want to do when it's time.

00:07:55
Speaker 2: Makes sense. Okay, So then how do you I've heard you talk about this, how oftentimes we spend our money though to signal to others, we spend our money in ways that are not internal. They're not internally satisfying. We think that they are externally satisfying to others. But as you are taking clients and folks kind of through that process, are there some steps that you take with them to help them to understand what it is that kind of lights them up? How can folks avoid that trap of spending in a way that doesn't necessarily align with their values.

00:08:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think it's twofold. So I always say that we need to really do the hard work of being honest with ourselves and how we feel about ourselves and looking at our self esteem. While we're in the process of creating financial priorities. So if you find that you are purchasing a bunch of wealth signifiers to show everybody that you're making it, who was that for and how come? And let's dive into what you really believe about yourself that you need that. And I say this also coming from a place of having done that too, Like I remember when we have right, all of us, and it shows up very differently through your age. And I think as young as middle school to what jeans are you wearing, who are you hanging out with? What? Like? Do you have the latest and greatest whatever? It is? Feels really cool when you're young, But as you continue aging and your life starts to look different, that's kind of you have the insight and the wherewithal to start asking yourself the harder questions of why you need this stuff and who who are you trying to attract that you feel like you can't attract without it and those.

00:09:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, the expense of those well signifiers goes up substantially too as you get older, because in middle school it's sneakers in a T shirt, and as an adultig deal, it's a car in a house, right, Yeah, exactly, it's so expensive to kind of really keep that up exactly.

00:09:52
Speaker 3: And I think the second step after you are kind of taking the time to look at like, hey, who is this for, then you can ask yourself, Okay, does this line with my values? And I want to like put the disclaimer in that I am not telling people don't have the fancy dinner, don't get the fancy car, do that, but make sure one that you can afford it, and two that it's really for you and not so that other people are looking at you and deciding that you are this type of person. And you can fill in the blank there, Yeah.

00:10:18
Speaker 1: Is it really for you?

00:10:20
Speaker 2: I like that.

00:10:21
Speaker 1: I've heard you talk about deserving versus being able to afford it. Right, some folks feel like, Okay, I'm an adults, I deserve adult treats, Like this is what adults do, I think, and so this is the path I need to trod. What do you tell folks who feel like frugality is too much of a downer or hey, no, I'm like thirty five and so I should be able to spend on this stuff, but maybe they don't necessarily have the budget to be able to do so.

00:10:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of thoughts on that, and they're evolving as we're even talking about it. So one thing that I'm thinking about is when we have this idea of hey, I'm thirty five, I'm this age, I'm an adult, I should be able to afford that, where's that coming from? Because if that's coming from generations before you, we're living in a different time. It looks very different. So if you were expecting to have the same things that somebody would have had at your current age before you, like, we're we're not on the same playing field. The foundations look very different.

00:11:19
Speaker 2: It's a different world.

00:11:20
Speaker 3: It's a different world, totally different world.

00:11:22
Speaker 1: Like those houses are expensive now, yes.

00:11:24
Speaker 3: Very expensive. And globalization and the internet has made things that we could not get so readily available at our fingertips by a click of the button. Something can come to me in a week. So it just looks.

00:11:38
Speaker 2: A week, right, Asia, I get stuff like this afternoon.

00:11:43
Speaker 3: I try to give the leeway. But you're right, and not only it's true, yeah, not only just that, but I really really try to hammer home to people that what you deserve has nothing to do with what you can afford. Those are two very different things, and we connect them so quickly and easily when they have no business being connected. As a human being, we all deserve everything, right like, just as humans. I believe that, yes, we deserve to be where we want to be, feel safe, where we can be safe anywhere we walk around like, I just believe that that is a human right. So, yes, you deserve all the things, but it doesn't mean you can afford them.

00:12:24
Speaker 2: Does Yeah, does not mean you've got the money in the bank. And it sounds like so it sounds like you're kind of speaking from personal experience a little bit. How I guess when you and your husband, when y'a are living in the city, maybe y'all are spending more than you should have been, or I don't know, maybe more than you realize. Can you can you share your your personal story a little bit and you talk about the financial awakening that you went through, can you basically, yeah, talk us through that.

00:12:46
Speaker 3: Yeah. So when I had first moved so I'm originally from upstate New York, but when I first moved down to New York City, I was spending all of my money. I was literally just making it rain. I had a car payment, student loan payments, I had rent payment for a pretty nice apartment, and I was like, oh, I could send out my laundry. Oh, I can also go to this happy hour and this brunch and go shopping in the same lit all the thing. I could not afford to do that, but it felt like, again, I should be able to. I'm making this money, it should be able to work that way. And as I got into the personal finance space and just started educating myself, A was like, Okay, this doesn't make sense. This is actually not working. I'm not going to be able to reach the financial goals that I want to. And then me and my now husband moved in and we were still making it rain. We were still going out to eat and ordering takeout, and it looked a little different our spending. But now when I look back, we are At the time, like our rent was a little less a little more than half our mortgage payment, we didn't have two kids in daycare, we didn't have need a like larger suv, we didn't have a dog. Like all of these things gave us space in our budget to have a great time, and we lived it and it was amazing. But I cannot afford to do the things that I was doing then Now because I have different priorities. I'm like, oh, do I want to go out to this fancy meal four times this month that would potentially equal the same amount of money that is one child's day.

00:14:29
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:14:30
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:14:30
Speaker 1: Once kids enter the realm, the equation, you're like, this changes everything. And so I'm like Matt and I always talk about how we're glad that we were more frugal maybe than sometimes we even needed to be on those in those early years, because there's so many unexpected expenses that pop up when you have kids. And I will say, even in the beginning, I was like, oh, I can't wait to get out of diapers. That's going to save me a lot of money. And then the kids' activities start up, and the soccer and the gymnastics and all that stuff, and you're like, wait a second, how did I ever think that this? Like it just the expenses continue to grow even as your kids get older. When you think, oh, wait, yeah, I get out of diapers are going to be great, well not so much. I guess my question to you too is like, when you realized, okay, we moved in together, we're still making it rain, We're still spending in the same way what did you end up cutting back on and how did you realize that those were the right moves.

00:15:19
Speaker 3: So we ended up cutting back on definitely on eating out and drinking out, I think is the best way to put it. So it's really easy, especially when you live in New York to say, hey, let's meet up after work, or your friends don't live in the same borough that you live in and it takes a long time to travel, so it's easy to go someplace that's halfway and meet and get drinks. Because it's just like it's it's a very going out city, Like you don't really hang out at home all the time. That's a rare kit. You go out, exactly, go out, you let's hang out together. So when I realized, I think it was around the time that we were moving and move out of the city and going to the suburbs. When I was like, okay, well our mortgage is much higher than our rent. Was where do we need to cut? And I had, thankfully the personal finance education and be like, let's look at our budget. How much money are we cutting and what are we cutting and how much do we need to And a lot of it came from eating out and drinking. It came from we had more expensive gym memberships that in the city that we didn't need in suburbia, so that shifted. At that time, I had paid off my car ready, so I was like, we will be driving this car forever, and we did until we had a second child and had to upgrade, and that literally happened two and a half years ago. So we really were more mindful of when we were spending. We would still go out and we had a great time, but it was just so much less and you don't really like, I know, I was probably spending twelve hundred dollars a month by myself alone, like not even what my now husband was spent. So that's a lot of money.

00:17:02
Speaker 1: It's tough when you live in a really cool city like that too, because you want to partake so much experience.

00:17:06
Speaker 2: Part of yeah, that is part.

00:17:07
Speaker 1: Of the experience, but also there's the experience of being broken in debt, which is which is something you want to avoid too.

00:17:14
Speaker 2: And it's just the different life stage that you're in right like that necessitated the change that you were willing to make, and like you said before, it's so important and helpful I think to have something there in front of you that you are pursuing, that you're moving towards, rather than just saying, oh, well, it's not just no no no, it's so that you can say yes, yes, yes to some of these other things. But so so far we've find this is a fun conversation. We're talking about spending, but we're going to kind of dive into some of this some of the heavier mental health. As mental health, we're going to talk about emotions and specifically the impact that it has on us and how it is that we spend and saver money.

00:17:49
Speaker 1: We'll get to all of that right after this. All right, the conversation continues. We're talking about mental health, how that is essentially financial health in so many ways. Talking with Asia Evans perfect person to talk to about this topic. And Asia, you mentioned that when you kind of start talking about the personal values that someone has, you're not necessarily going directly to like personal finance one onh one in your discussions when someone comes into your office or when someone's meeting with you to talk about kind of their financial feelings and stuff like that. But like, how do you know whether where you should go in that conversation? And and how much are you doing on like the unpacking the childhood front or are you more like unpacking their spending and credit card bills breaking down their credit card statement or is it both and both and okay?

00:18:45
Speaker 3: So even like in probably the first conversation I have with potential clients at that point, like the whole process, if you will, I ask them what's going on now, Like why did now feel like a good time that you wanted to talk to a financial therapy and really dive in about what's going on with your emotions and your money. So that will be an indicator of what they want to work on, and then you know, they say yes, we start working together, We get them on the schedule, and then it's okay, this is where you're at. Now. Is there anything else that feels really pressing right now about like what's going on with your money? Like are you in crisis right now? Do we need to attune to something that's coming up quickly? Sometimes the answer is yes, and we'll stick to that subject matter. Sometimes the answer is no. So when the answer is no, that gives us a little bit more space and room to then have the conversations about childhood and upbringing and I know, listen, people don't want to talk about their affinitely, the mommy issues, the daddy issues, the friend issues, the person issues. You know, we all have baggage. And I totally get it, because it's hard to decide that you're going to go unpack that closet. And as we all know, when we clean a closet, we make the room very messy trying to clean out the closet, and sometimes it takes time to put that stuff back in neatly. But that's why I'm here to walk my clients through the process and to understand where the root of some of these patterns came from exactly. And that's what's necessary for long term change. And I tell my clients that I'm like, listen, if you want a short term change where we go through this process and then you may have to come back to me in a little bit, that's okay, but that's really not how I like to work. I would rather go through the nitty gritty, the hardship right now. Do the hard first, so that later on, when you're making these behavioral and financial changes, they stick and you don't feel bad, and yeah, there's reduced chame.

00:20:40
Speaker 2: I totally agree I was recently talking to a friend who's a physical therapist, and she's just kind of talking about some of the different work that she does, and I was like, hey, by the way, what do you think about chiropractors. You know, you go in, you get that adjustment, and you're like, ah, yeah, I feel great. And she basically said exactly what you just said. But in terms of the body and physical health, right, you can make some of these little tweaks to quick picks, and you might feel good for a little bit, but it doesn't address the underlying issues. And I love that that is the goal, certainly your goal, but just I think mental health professionals, generally speaking, one of the things you're able to identify as you kind of dig through that baggage is just some of the beliefs that we have around money, the scripts pre like sometimes folks call them money scripts, but like, we have these beliefs, and it's hard to know whether they're good, whether they're bad, whether they're like right or wrong. And it's almost as if, like as like the process of adulthood is almost just trying to like experiment and try some of these out and to figure out whether or not they're accurate or not right. And so how do you think that we can go about doing that when it comes to some of the different money beliefs that we have.

00:21:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would tell people to start looking at what your money beliefs are, and people very quickly be like, well, what are you even talking about? Like what do you mean? So money beliefs are money narratives. The way I think about them is that they are either something that you learn, picked up on, understood pretty much, cemented to your memory, and decided this is how, this is what it is right, this is the truth, This is the infinite truth of money in this way?

00:22:13
Speaker 1: And now can you give an example? Is it like I will never have enough money? Is that one?

00:22:17
Speaker 3: Perfect? Yep, that's a perfect example that could have come. So, say you were younger and you grew up in a household that didn't have enough money, and you felt like there was no possible way you were going to get out of that because you couldn't see it because you were young. And mind you, the research says that children start solidifying their money beliefs by between the ages of seven and nine. So that's that's pretty young. You know, you're not making money at that time, and if you started believing I'll never have enough money, it may not show up the same way as it was when you were younger. But as an adult, you may be a workaholic because you're making three hundred thousand, but you feel like it will never be enough because that script, that narrative is still embedded in your mind of what it looks like to attempt to survive, attempt to make it work. So then you work yourself into the ground thinking that you'll never have enough money.

00:23:11
Speaker 1: In your significant others like why do you work all the time?

00:23:14
Speaker 3: You know?

00:23:14
Speaker 1: And then it crosses these interpersonal lines where that relationship suffers because you haven't identified this underlying money belief.

00:23:22
Speaker 3: Exactly, and you're working all the time. You may be neglecting your body, You may be neglecting your own mental health. And people therapists are not trained to think about money in that way. We're not trained to start diving into the financial aspect of people's lives and how that may be making their symptomology worse.

00:23:45
Speaker 1: So my wife is actually in graduate school to become a mental health welcome clinician. Yeah, So I have you guys left to chat at some point, you love that, But she that's something she talks about because of what I do, because of what we talk about in our household. She's like, it's so amazing that money is so often left out of these mental health conversations when it is such an important piece of the puzzle that really should be put on the table more often.

00:24:11
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. Yeah, I'm happy to talk to her about.

00:24:13
Speaker 2: It'd be cool. I mean, so, how do you take those emotions that we all have obviously, Like, I mean, the answer isn't to be more robotic necessarily and to eliminate any sort of happiness, but also sadness for our life. How should we take those emotions and how should they interact with our money and with our finances in a healthy way.

00:24:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think realizing kind of what your money narrative was that you had in the past, and also giving yourself grace, like allowing yourself to remember, Hey, this developed out of a place that I am no longer in, and I know that I was just trying to make it and I was doing the best that I can. Thank you, younger me because that was helpful. And now the new older me that knows differently needs to, you know, shift to make sure that that's how we're living now. So have grace, don't be mean to yourself.

00:25:06
Speaker 2: That does not help.

00:25:07
Speaker 3: Shame does not motivate people. And then it's time to like, okay, now, how can we be better and what are we going to be doing differently? And let let's be honest about the emotions that happened, because I think what happens, especially my work, is that people find the narrative or we pinpoint the moment or the root cause, and they see the pattern. They're like, Okay, great, I'm healed, and I laugh because it's just not true. Like that is actually when you start doing the hard work. That's when it's like, oh I.

00:25:39
Speaker 2: Am just step one.

00:25:40
Speaker 1: Yea epiphany is necessary, but it's not going to fix it exactly.

00:25:43
Speaker 3: Oh I just realized that I'm doing this and now I have to do a different behavior That is the hard work.

00:25:49
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, okay. So so emotions are certainly a part of that, and we don't want to cut ourselves off from all those feelings because feelings are necessary. They're a big part of what makes as human. But what about where's the intersection, what about concrete action steps? Like creating a plan, right, how does that? Maybe does that help us overcome some of those negative feelings sometimes and you just don't want to paper over over them. But so as you need a to do list like things do actually accomplish. At the same time as you're kind of you've got the epiphany, maybe you kind of see, oh wait, that's my limiting money belief. That's how this is this and this and this is how it's impacting me. Then how do we start to move forward?

00:26:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, so definitely having that plan right, deciding what your financial priorities are and how you're going to accomplish them however that is, whatever works for you. And then also having a plan for when you get upset when something is hitting that button. When something is we use the word trigger a lot, So when something's triggering that emotional state for you, what are you going to do? Then you need a plan for that as well, not just your financial plan, because that's when it gets hard to make sure that you make a different choice than you don't harm yourself anyway, like financially, so that you need a plan or coping skill or something that's going to help help you regulate feeling emotionally heightened.

00:27:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that makes so much sense because I has to stay away from Appleby's during half price appetizers because he'll go overboard. I get triggered as I love what you're saying, because unique when you are emotionally in an emotionally heightened state, that's when you're going to be most likely to take the wrong action anyway. So yeah, having a plan so that you are just kind of doing the right things because we don't always feel feel like doing the right thing. It makes me think about, like you mentioned, going out on like date nights with your husband. It makes me think how grateful I am so my wife and I, no matter what it's on the calendar, every two weeks we go out on a date night, and sometimes I don't necessarily want to go right, and like it just feels like we're kind of checking a box because it is this repeating event. But what I find is that by sitting there by looking at or having a conversation, connecting to do laundry, and connecting as husband and wife, by the end of that I am so a thankful that we went on a date night, and it makes me want to go on another date night. Again very soon, and so I guess, yeah, talk to me about that. Do you think that there should be things that we do? I'm trying to relate this back to money, right, like you, what are some of the different things you think we should be doing, I guess with our money, even when we don't feel like they're things that we want to do, because I think a lot of times folks feel that they need to have a full understanding of exactly what it is that they should be doing with their money or they should or that they need to feel good about their money, as opposed to knowing that well, I need a I know, I need to just do this because this is going to get me towards closer towards building wealth. This is going to get me towards closer towards financial independence. Can you talk about that for a second. Does that make sense? Yeah?

00:28:45
Speaker 3: So I'm you're going to keep me on track. I'm going to hold you to it, but I'm going to get there in a roundabout way, do it?

00:28:50
Speaker 2: I love it?

00:28:51
Speaker 1: So.

00:28:52
Speaker 3: First, for your example, you going out on your date with your wife is self care to the point of like, why we are here to talking about this? You stepping outside of your life, stepping away from the laundry, the responsibilities as parents, and just being back to like, oh hey this remember this all started because we loved each other, Like this is all This all started because we fell in love. And being able to be there together allows you to then step back into your responsibilities and feel more equipped to handle them, more rested, better about yourself, better about your foundation and your partnership, whatever it might be. Right, yours is date night, but it could be something else for somebody.

00:29:32
Speaker 2: Sure.

00:29:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, being more prepared to handle the responsibilities makes it easier for you to put that back into your budget, to realize, hey, this is really important for us to have this time. We do need to spend money on a date night or carve out the time, no matter what it looks like, because it pours back into us and this is a value that we have and what you're doing is just expressing that with your money as well. So it could be the g for some people. Okay, you go to the gym in the morning. You're paying for this gym membership. Could you cut it? Sure? But are you going to go do the other things? And does that mean you're going to let some of your self care behaviors go by the wayside because you aren't having that routine with the gym.

00:30:15
Speaker 1: For sure. Talk to me about negative amplifiers of emotional and mental health, and I'm specifically thinking of things like loneliness or social media. That the more disconnected we feel from our loved ones and the more we're on social media typically that has for most people from everything that I've seen and read, it has a negative impact on how they're feeling about their life. And that's the highlight reel on Instagram, right, I mean, there's a bunch of things we cant highlight, are just missing out on community involvement. So I know we're mostly talking about money here, but I feel like the more disconnect we feel and the more anxious we feel, the more likely we are to do bad things with our money. So what do you think about those inputs the way that they impact how we think and feel and actually the things that we do with the money that we have.

00:31:05
Speaker 3: So I completely agree with you, and I think a lot of it has to do with comparison. So if you are scrolling and you're looking at social media, and you're looking at somebody's highlight reel while you're on the couch with your hand in your ice cream tub. Nothing is going to look good right Like you are going to sit there and feel so bad about what your life looks like compared to who's Whoever's pictures you're seeing that look perfectly curated and look really great.

00:31:32
Speaker 2: Right.

00:31:34
Speaker 3: Exactly? That feels awful where And I'm like, listen, this took a lot of work to get. You may not have seen it, but it took a lot of time and preparation, and we lose track of that so quickly because it's right there in front of us all the time. So if you're following a ton of people, you can just see it. I tell my clients all the time. I'm like, listen, is somebody was following you with a camera and had some good lighting and put some well timed music to your favorite day. Doesn't that sound like a highlight reel to you?

00:32:06
Speaker 1: Yeah?

00:32:07
Speaker 3: Basically, because that is exactly what it is. And I think we forget that people who are creating content, this is a job for them. There is a skill that comes to making that work. And I think when the social media platforms started, it wasn't like that, right, It was just kind of like I mean, I was in college when Facebook started and we were taking pictures on a digital camera that may have fallen in a cup of beer. Like it was just it was messy and it wasn't perfectly curated. But the way it has worked out is that now it looks different and we compare ourselves and then that leads to, you know, low self esteem, which can lead to depression or feeling anxious or feeling like you're not living up to what people your age or your peers are doing, and that can lead to anxiety. So all of these symptoms, if you will, or feelings that can come up, can go in a negative place if you let them spiral to that place. And the comparison really is a gasoline on the fire to that. And what happens when you feel that way is that you are trying to cope, You're trying your hard is to feel better, and a lot of that is instant gratification, and that means you're spending money. So if that means, hey, I'm ordering uber eats because I'm depressed and I can't I can't even think about making dinner right now, then it's so quick to just spend that twenty five thirty bucks to have a meal.

00:33:27
Speaker 2: So ny it's right on the phone, it's what's in the app, the or streamline everything.

00:33:32
Speaker 3: Right, or you're like, hey, look at that awesome home that they have, Like look at those throw pillows. Oh look they're linked and so is my credit card. Click click click, I bought those pillows. I'm gonna feel as good too. So it is really really easy to spend our money now, and what we're trying to do is feel better. So that's when I talk about going back to what do you do when you're triggered? If you're not realizing that you're triggered, you're just gonna spend your money. Sometimes for some people, people do something things.

00:34:00
Speaker 2: You know, But sure, yeah, yeah, I'm sure there's some folks who do the exact opposite, right, and from a financial standpoint, they probably aren't struggling quite as much, at least in that way, but they assuming certainly they've got other issues going on where still there are issues for them to work through. But yeah, yeah, social media it's it's kind of the worst, right because, Like, on one hand, I do like it because the ability for folks to talk about money.

00:34:23
Speaker 1: And out of money Facebook group is one of the best.

00:34:26
Speaker 2: It's just away for us to reduce the taboo that surrounds personal finance and money. But on the other hand, like you said, the comparison game, I think ultimately is a is a net loss. But can we talk about trauma for for a quick second here, if that's possible, let's talk. Let's quickly talk about trauma. I feel like it's a word that you hear being tossed around a lot, Like I feel like it kind of gets maybe used too much. I don't know, I'm sure if you feel that way. But what is financial trauma and specifically, like, what is it that causes financial trauma?

00:34:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, so financial trauma to me is a negative feeling that you have because of a hardship that you lived through. So a financial trauma, I mean, the definition kind of fluctuates. In my own definition fluctuates, so I'll give that disclaimer as well. But it's pretty much if you live through somebody one of your parents, lost a job, or you had to move abruptly because you were being evicted, or you are twenty something and are up to debt, like in debt up to your eyeballs and you don't know what to do with it, and you're anxious and you can't sleep anymore. It's feeling like you can't compare to anybody else or your peers because you don't have enough money to quote unquote keep up. All of those things, no matter how big or small, can be traumatic and can take root inside of you that start to kind of influence how you think about yourself in the world. Say you came from a very wealthy family and at a certain age you moved out and you got a job, but you are not able to afford the same lifestyle that you had with your wealthy family. You take on credit cards and you're getting in debt. You could easily start writing this script that says I'll never get out of debt, like I won't be able to get out of this debt unless I ask my parents. But I don't want to ask my parents, and you know, then we're down the cycle. So it's very easy for people to have these financially traumatic situations happen, and they are very common. And I want to just say, I think we have this idea that people who are wealthy or rich or have a lot of money don't have any financial traumas, and that's not the case. A lot of times we talk about it from the other side, where people grew up in a situation where there wasn't enough means to kind of cover. But financial trauma really doesn't care how much money you have. It's just that it was traumatic. It's about the experience of the person, and just because it was traumatic to you doesn't mean it was traumatic for somebody else who went through the same exact experience as you.

00:36:55
Speaker 1: So is the goal to overcome to defeat the financial trauma or is it more about like harnessing it to help you move forward? To me, Matt and I we've talked in the past about using financial stressors in your life to your advantage, to kind of point you towards the things that need to be worked on. It's easier to let that like overwhelm you, right, But then there are other ways where you can do a jiu jitsu move and you can kind of take advantage of that stress and turn it into action. So I don't know what are your thoughts on that and how we move forward and what are we trying to accomplish as we do that.

00:37:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I mean to me, I would love for everybody to be able to heal and feel better, But a lot of it is just acknowledging it that this had an impact on you. And a lot of times people have a hard time acknowledging that because it also may involve their family. It might feel disrespectful to say, oh, that was really hard for me when you know your parents were trying their hardest and doing their best. Yeah, and that's that to me, are two different things. You can love your parents, they could have been doing their best, and it could still be hard for you, and things can be true at the same time. So it's about acknowledging that you through this and that it was hard, and sometimes it informs what you do with your money, and you don't want it to anymore. So let's give ourselves grace and figure out what our financial priorities are and then figure out what do we need to do to feel better when those old memories are coming up, when we're triggered, when we're having a hard time, and be nice to yourself, like shame is the worst. Financial shame is awful, and it makes people feel terrible about themselves and I'm just not for it. So I'm just like we got to get rid of it.

00:38:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're anti shame too, because it's it breeds the opposite of action.

00:38:35
Speaker 2: It doesn't lead to anywhere that it doesn't lead for nowhere productive.

00:38:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not productive. It's that's what you're wallowing. You're sitting there, you're beating yourself up and you're not really actually taking any steps to move forward to get beyond it. So we've got a couple more questions to get to with you, h including we got to talk about boundaries, and that especially is like your money situation changes, maybe those how you deal with money, stuff with it interpersonally, with your significant other, maybe with your parents who raised you. We'll talk about that more right after this.

00:39:15
Speaker 2: Right, we are back still talking here with Asia Evans and Asia. So far the work that you've guided to our listeners through is more personal and internal. Right, So let's step outside of that a little Bit's talk about other people and.

00:39:29
Speaker 1: Specifically we make them different.

00:39:32
Speaker 2: How do we change the lives of the people around us. I don't want to change. I want them to change.

00:39:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then my life will be better by proxy.

00:39:38
Speaker 2: No, So you literally were before we hit record, you were talking about how you literally, I guess twenty minutes before we started talking. You trend In the first draft of your book, it's called but I Only Got Water, and it's the title of the book. Obviously it's a nod to the predicament of splitting a dinner and trying to figure out how to pay the check. Yeah, and with your friend, can you tell us about the book, you know, do you mostly focus on some of those modern day money anxieties that we all face.

00:40:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the book is pretty much about how our relationship to money is formed, and then it goes into some of the limiting beliefs that we may have. So whether it is thinking about how you're going to split the check at the group dinner or when you're squalking down target and you want to buy all of the things, which I happen to feel quite frequent. So, just how some of the limiting money beliefs show up for you and how they kind of interact with your money in a way that you either do or do not want anymore.

00:40:39
Speaker 1: You've talked about this, I think in your relationship with your own mom, about how once you've had a degree of financial success, it can change the interactions between you and a parent, you and a spouse how but like different cultures, different families have varying opinions as to what's expected of you once you've had that degree of financial success, right, and you say that setting proper boundaries is one of the most important things when it comes to relational health boundaries. That's one of those things that a word I did not understand very much in my early twenties, but late thirties I understand it a whole lot more. How would you go about recommending people think about setting boundaries when it comes to money and relationships?

00:41:14
Speaker 3: So I would say the first step is deciding where they need to be. I think a lot of times people want to set boundaries, but they don't know where they should be, Like when is it okay? So the first step is really deciding where do you start to get uncomfortable. Where do you start to feel like, oh gosh, I don't want to have this conversation, or oh gosh, they might ask me for money, or I want to give them money, but they're really uncomfortable about it. That is a signifier to tell you, like, hey, something's going on with your boundaries, Like when you start getting uncomfortable or feeling uneasy after that, thinking about like, Okay, how can I have this conversation to set the boundary in a way that I feel comfortable and I feel safe, and I am also not trying to hurt their feelings. And I think that's where we all get, you know, a little caught up because we don't want to hurt the other person's feelings, but we are hurting ourselves and not protecting our own boundaries. So we have to be brave and be kind to ourselves and try as hard as possible to just like let them know what is comfortable for you and what isn't, what you're willing to do and what you aren't willing to do. So similar to what you were saying. When I started making a certain amount of money, my mom was like, okay, here take this phone bill, like she just gave me her phone bill, just like here too. Culturally, I'm a black woman, that was totally appropriate. Culturally, I was not shocked by it. I almost like expect the ordinary for you have the ordinary for me at all. But for some of my white counterparts that I have shared this story with, they're like, I'm sorry, what my parts are still paying my phone Bill. I was like, yeah, I'm oppositely.

00:42:49
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:42:50
Speaker 1: Were you like, Mom, we're putting you on mint Mobile right now? Yeah?

00:42:53
Speaker 3: No, I'm like, okay, here we go with the Rizon Bill.

00:42:56
Speaker 2: Well, how do you I guess, yeah, as you start to have some of these conversation and how do you go about doing that? Well, obviously it's not like a one war text that you shoot over to somebody and you're like, you want to be able to provide some sort of some sort of explanation. I guess, and you probably want to do it in person. But I guess how much information is too much information?

00:43:16
Speaker 3: You're talking to a therapist? Yes, I'm always about that communication.

00:43:19
Speaker 2: I'm sure a vari is per individual, and it depends on this circumstanced pretty much.

00:43:23
Speaker 3: How much are you willing to share without again feeling like your boundaries are uncomfortable. If you're going to tell somebody how much you're making, but you know that they're going to tell the whole family that you don't feel comfortable letting them know that information. You don't want the whole family to know, then I wouldn't share it. So you decide what feels safe for you, what feels comfortable for your transparency and how to have that conversation with that person. And when I say the conversation, I mean you leading with I feel I want I statements always, I statements for what you're going through and let them know what will work for you and what will not work for you. So I was comfortable taking my mom's phone bill on so I let her know. It's like okay, Mom, like that's fine, blah blah blah, move on from there. But if it was like, hey, Asia, can you pay my rent?

00:44:11
Speaker 1: For example, I feel like that's a terrible idea.

00:44:17
Speaker 3: But you have to have a conversation. Mom. I love you so much, but I'm not financially able to carry your rent and my own at the same time. And I want to be able to help you wherever I can. So how do we find a way that we both can feel comfortable because I would feel uncomfortable way.

00:44:34
Speaker 2: Well, the way you do it, it makes it sound so easy. But what I'm gathering here, though, is to not say not to blame it on the other person, which is why you always do that exactly. Yeah, going back to changing other people around us.

00:44:49
Speaker 3: And that's hard when you have started doing some of this work, and not just the financial work, but the work on yourself. When you start having insight on yourself, it's really hard to recognize other people around you who may not have that level of insight for themselves, and that's difficult.

00:45:02
Speaker 1: All right, Well, Asia, this has been just such a great conversation, so much insight, so much value I think for people, because yeah, when it comes down to it, how we feel about our money, how we feel about our lives, impacts every aspect of our personal finances and it's really important. Or I guess one last thing I want to ask you is like, when does somebody know, Hey, they've just heard this, maybe this is either a great primer they need to go see somebody, they need to go talk to a mental health professional. Or when is this done just fine within community as a solo mission, or when do they actually need to seek paid professional help.

00:45:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I would say if you find yourself really really anxious, So if you are, you can't sleep, you have your stomach hurts, you're having trouble breathing, If you're having anxiety attacks or panic attacks, especially about your money, definitely seek out a financial therapist, specifically one that may have clinical background so they can help work you through some of those anxiety attacks or panic attacks. I would also say, if you find yourself just doing the same thing over and over again, if you feel like you are, you know you've listened, you have the personal finance education, but you keep making the same money mistakes, you keep beating yourself up about it. It's the same pattern happening over and over again. I would definitely get in touch with the financial therapist.

00:46:17
Speaker 1: And where can folks find out more about you and what you're up to.

00:46:19
Speaker 3: Ah So, I am on Instagram at Asia Ajae Therapy or you can find me on my website which is Asiaevanscounseling dot com.

00:46:28
Speaker 1: Awesome all that in the show notes, absolutely and thank you again for joining us.

00:46:31
Speaker 2: Thanks nice dude. I think this is my favorite conversation that we've ever had about about mental health, because, like you hear mental health and maybe this is just me, but oftentimes it seems like this super I guess a setting where it's just like, think about your childhood ethereal harder to put your finger on those really nebulous It's like nav Gazi trying to nail slime to a wall or something like that. And I feel like Asia was able to make it practical, and so my big takeaway I think it was when we're talking about emotions specifically and how we just need to give ourselves a little bit of grace because what we have done in the past, right like that has informed who we are today, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that is what we need to continue to do. She was saying like she was taking a very thankful posture towards that, where she's just like, Okay, that was necessary for that point in your life. That is how you survived. Was that informed how it is that you earned money, or that informed how you spent money. But once you've identified a new priority, a new value, you can move essentially move on from. That is sort of what I took from her talking about.

00:47:35
Speaker 1: The more you let it define you, the more it will continue to impact your future.

00:47:38
Speaker 2: You're basically just trapped, which I also love how at the end she was talking about that, she was just saying like, hey, if you find yourself in the same patterns, if you're in the same rut and you can't get out, well, then maybe somebody needs to come alongside you to kind of kind of jar you out out of those rats a little bit party pro yeah, but to not beat yourself up over the things that happened in the past, knowing that, hey, there are changes that you can make now. Let that help to inform your decisions moving forward. And that was my big table.

00:48:04
Speaker 1: When does it ever help to just punch yourself in the house, you know, like helpful? Literally from a physical standpoint, you're just going to hurt yourself. But then also when you're doing it from an emotional standpoint, it's you're not making you're not improving right, and you're not exactly you're not even going through some of those emotions that they're really roiling on the inside totally. So can't you can't just do that? I think my big takeaway was kind of towards the and when we talked about minding the inputs. And I think a lot of folks feel like those things are unrelated. Whether it's social media, whether it's the fact, whether it's a lack of community relationships, those things kind of feel completely untangled for money, But I think they're far more entangled than we like to give them credit for sure, And it's really important to think about, well, how much news am I consuming and how much social media am I consuming? Do I need to take the app off my phone completely? Is that gonna actually change not only just how I feel as an individual, how it feel as a person, but also is it going to change how I interact with and relate to my money, how I spend and how I choose to save.

00:49:00
Speaker 2: Not just your money but people. Right, It has an impact on how we treat other people and then our community around it. It has such like we are more holistic beings than I think we give ourselves credit for. And like you said, we think we can isolate different things in our lives, but it has a bigger impact on us than we I think could ultimately realize.

00:49:17
Speaker 1: And when you look at the numbers, not to bash, but there is a preponderance of TV and social media, TV watching and social media usage in this country. And if we would cut down on those things and spend a little more time in real human interaction, I think we'd all be healthier. And guess what, I think we'd have more money at the end of the day too. It's weird to say, but I think those things are related for sure.

00:49:37
Speaker 2: Totally agree.

00:49:38
Speaker 1: All right, let's get back to the beer that we had on this episode. This is a Quality Time calsh is by Inner Voice Brewing, And actually we picked this beer up at the How To Money Hang in Atlanta, which made quality time. Do we had quality time with.

00:49:48
Speaker 2: Good what a perfect beer for We should have only all been drinking Quality Time, That's right. So I love the label. First of all, there's like two beer glass characters on the front of it, and it's just like two buddies. Yep, reminds me of us. But I also love the design of the label. It's like quality Time is written over and over and over, like nineteen seventies. It's very nineteen seventies. Specifically, what it makes me think of is the plastic bag that you would get at like a quickie mart, like at a gas station, where it says thank you. It's like thank you, thank you, thank you. That's totally what that looks like. It does.

00:50:19
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:50:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a mash up between like mister Yuck. You remember the Mister Yuck stickers? You don't remember miss oh you see, I think you're a touch too young for this. Mister Yuck was this character in the eighties. I remember being like a kindergartener and somebody would come to your class and you talk about poison, and you got these stickers and you stick them on things that you're not supposed to drink, like rubbing alcohol or something like like write something in at home that you know as bad. You put mister yuck on there. That way you're not you don't accidentally drink it or something like that. That's what I think of when it's seen this Libea anyway, probably had to put that up all over your house just to prevent you from stick them on everything. And I think my parents were annoyed.

00:50:57
Speaker 1: You put it on like the green beans of dinner, and her mom's like.

00:51:00
Speaker 2: This, this is yeah, but yeah, what we your thoughts on on this cultsh? So?

00:51:04
Speaker 1: I thought this was was crisp, refreshing and a little bit creamy too, which is kind of nicely interesting.

00:51:10
Speaker 2: Crisp and creamy.

00:51:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that really interesting combos. I don't really know the last time I had a coolsh, but I was like, oh man, this actually kind of makes me want to go down that path a little more. And I don't really know what distinguishes a kulsh from a pilsner. Now I'm gonna have to do some research, but I really like this one.

00:51:25
Speaker 2: You would think it would be something that we would know, but we don't like drinking it.

00:51:30
Speaker 1: You know.

00:51:30
Speaker 2: We know way more about IPAs and stauts and honestly sours as well, and even like barrel aged stuff. But some of those different European beers were a little in the dark about. But that doesn't mean we can't enjoy these beers. But I totally agree. Really clean, refreshing crisp remind me of like biting into like a like a fresh green apple or like a tart paar kind of had some of those vibes going on. But I'm glad you and I got to enjoy one of these today on the episode. But we'll have links up in the shows with this episode at howdomoney dot com. We'll make sure to link to Asia's site where you can learn more just about mental health generally speaking, but then also man, yeah, if you meet the criteria that she recommended there at the end for when it might be time for you to reach out to somebody. I really like how it is that Asia is talking about mental health and specifically how it impacts our money. But glad we got to talk with her today. But buddy, that is gonna be it for this episode, So until next time, best Friends Out, best Friends Out,