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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: He did the crimes that he was accused of committing

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Speaker 2: and was convicted of committing, but there was a lot

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Speaker 2: greater harm of the people who were in his orbit,

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Speaker 2: especially the women he was married to, those that he

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Speaker 2: had romantic relationships, be they physical or emotional or epistolary,

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Speaker 2: and for sure the girl that he killed and the

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Speaker 2: woman that he almost murdered.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've

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Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

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Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've

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Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now do

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Speaker 1: you want to tell you those stories with details that

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Speaker 1: have never been published? Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words

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Speaker 1: is about the choices that writers make, good and bad.

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Speaker 1: It's a deep dive into the stories behind the stories.

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Speaker 1: Author Sarah Winman is one of my most favorite guests.

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Speaker 1: You might remember her from last season when she talked

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Speaker 1: about her true crime book The Real Lolita. Now she's

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Speaker 1: talking about her new book, Scoundrel. It's the story of

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Speaker 1: a killer, the women in his life, and the conservative

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Speaker 1: political commentator who tried to save him. So do we

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Speaker 1: want to start with do you call her Vicky? Ors

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Speaker 1: of Victoria Victoria an Zelenski.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, the book starts with her, and the first

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Speaker 2: line is first Vicky. That was a deliberate choice because

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Speaker 2: before we get into the complicated story of manipulation and

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Speaker 2: literary merit and what we believe in who we choose

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Speaker 2: to believe, it was so important for me to ground

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Speaker 2: the story in who Vicky was and how little life

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Speaker 2: she had lived, because she was only fifteen years old

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Speaker 2: when she was murdered, so she just didn't have much

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Speaker 2: in the way of opportunity to do all that much

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Speaker 2: except be a teenager in Bergen County, New Jersey and

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Speaker 2: hang out with her friends and go to church and

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Speaker 2: try to survive in a home that ultimately proved to be.

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Speaker 1: Somewhat abuse laden.

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Speaker 2: And she had a younger sister and a younger brother

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Speaker 2: and an older sister and friends and an older boy

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Speaker 2: that she was going on dates with, even though not

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Speaker 2: much was necessarily happening.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's go back and start sort of from the beginning.

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Speaker 1: When does she cross paths with Edgar Smith?

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Speaker 2: So initially she and Edgar had known each other just

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Speaker 2: through the neighborhood. He was friendly with this other young man,

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Speaker 2: Donald Hammel, who Vicky had gone out on a few

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Speaker 2: dates with. It was sort of like, you know, a

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Speaker 2: larger group of guys and a larger group of girls.

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Speaker 2: They would go to the corral on Saturday nights, they

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Speaker 2: would get ice cream at places. They would just sort

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Speaker 2: of hang out. Because there were small towns, it just

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Speaker 2: wasn't a lot to do. And Vicky had a best

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Speaker 2: friend named Barbara Nixon, and so on the night of

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Speaker 2: March fourth, she was supposed to walk over to Barber's

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Speaker 2: house and they were going to do their homework together.

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Speaker 2: But because the street between where Vicky lived and where

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Speaker 2: Barbara lived, and Vicky lived in Ramsey and Barbara lived

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Speaker 2: in Mahwa, but it was basically the same street, but

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Speaker 2: it was poorly lit at the time of the evening

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Speaker 2: when she was supposed to walk over. So Vicky and

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Speaker 2: her younger sister, miRNA, had worked out a system where

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Speaker 2: they would both start walking together and at the halfway point,

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Speaker 2: Vicky would move on, probably because it was better lit,

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Speaker 2: and Myrna would walk home, and then at it agreed

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Speaker 2: upon time, they would converge again and walk back the

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Speaker 2: rest of the way together. So the first part of

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Speaker 2: that journey is successful. Vicky goes to Barbera's house. They

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Speaker 2: work on their accounting homework together, and then when it's

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Speaker 2: time to go home, RNA's a little bit late, I

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Speaker 2: think about ten or fifteen minutes, but she starts on

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Speaker 2: her journey. She passes a car and sees that it's

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Speaker 2: Don Hamel, who she knows a little bit again because

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Speaker 2: he has gone out on a few dates with Vicky.

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Speaker 2: And then when she gets to the halfway point, Vicki's

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Speaker 2: not there. And then miRNA goes all the way over

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Speaker 2: to the Nixon's house and they say, well, no, I

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Speaker 2: mean Vicky was here, but she's left. So that's when

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Speaker 2: mRNA realizes something terrible has happened. She finally gets home,

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Speaker 2: tells her parents that Vicky's missing, and then Vicki's father, Anthony,

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Speaker 2: goes out and does an initial search turns up nothing.

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Speaker 2: By Midnighty's home and then they all stay up all

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Speaker 2: night because, I mean, their daughter's missing.

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Speaker 1: It's horrendous.

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Speaker 2: The next morning, Anthony and his wife Mary, they go

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Speaker 2: out to take another look, and then Anthony sees some

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Speaker 2: article of clothing I believe it was a scarf that

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Speaker 2: belonged to VICKI And by that point the police had

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Speaker 2: already been alerted, and they all converge around the sand

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Speaker 2: pit that's.

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Speaker 1: Near a neighbor's house.

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Speaker 2: And then at the sand pit they see at the

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Speaker 2: bottom of the embankment that there is Vicky's body in

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Speaker 2: her head has been bashing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how horrible to be the ones that find her,

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Speaker 1: I mean, how terrible. So they talk to the.

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Speaker 2: Police and what happens It starts pretty much right away

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Speaker 2: from the discovery of Vicky's body. They have to I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's pretty clear how she died, but there is a

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Speaker 2: medical exam or who determines that the more I guess

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Speaker 2: scientific word for what happened to her is decerebrated, Like

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Speaker 2: that's how badly the.

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Speaker 1: Damage was to her head.

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Speaker 2: And they find some bloody rocks nearby, Like this is

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Speaker 2: not a scene, that's like carefully cultivated. It's clearly the

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Speaker 2: result of impulsive rage.

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Speaker 1: Sexual assault or no sexual assault.

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Speaker 2: Well that would come under dispute. So there was no

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Speaker 2: visible signs of sexual assault. They used a term called

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Speaker 2: virgo intacta, which is essentially to say that the hymen

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Speaker 2: was intact, which we know doesn't mean everything right now

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Speaker 2: exactly you know that means nothing at all. But in

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Speaker 2: the nineteen fifty seven they didn't know that. So there

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Speaker 2: were a lot of assumptions made about Vicky's virginity or

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Speaker 2: lack thereof, which also gets to the larger thing of

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Speaker 2: sexualization and trying to portray hers willful and wanton when

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Speaker 2: that was anything. But so the police they talked to

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Speaker 2: a number of young men who are either in Vicki's

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Speaker 2: sort of friend group or there was a military base

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Speaker 2: not too far so there's just like the canvas.

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Speaker 1: They talk.

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Speaker 2: But then they get word from a guy named Joe

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Speaker 2: Gilroy who whose car had been borrowed by a friend

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Speaker 2: of his, and when he gets the car back he

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Speaker 2: sees that there's blood.

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Speaker 1: It's in the passenger floorboards. He calls it in just

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Speaker 1: being like this is weird.

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Speaker 2: And he had seen Edgar and Edgar had acted in

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Speaker 2: a way that was kind of shifty, and just to

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Speaker 2: kind of backtrack, So Edgar Smith at that point is

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Speaker 2: twenty three years old. He had married the previous June,

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Speaker 2: his girlfriend, Patricia Horton. She was pregnant at the time

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Speaker 2: and would deliver their first baby, Patricia Anne, in December

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Speaker 2: of nineteen fifty six. So by March of fifty seven,

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Speaker 2: pat Smith is home with a three month old baby,

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Speaker 2: and they live in a trailer park and she basically

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Speaker 2: spends time with her mother and her mother in law.

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Speaker 1: That's about it.

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Speaker 2: And Edgar, well, he'd been in the military and then

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Speaker 2: he was discharged, and he held jobs, but none of

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Speaker 2: them took and at the time of Vicki's murder, he

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Speaker 2: had had a job and then been let go. So

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Speaker 2: he was very much at loose ends and acted in

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Speaker 2: a way more befitting of a bachelor than a married

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Speaker 2: man with a young baby at home. And so when

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Speaker 2: Joe Gilroy keeps getting these phone calls from Edgar Smith

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Speaker 2: being like, hey, let's hang out, what's going on, and

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Speaker 2: then they have a discussion and don Hommel's around there too,

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Speaker 2: of did you hear about this murder? That Victoria Zelinski

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Speaker 2: has been murdered, and Edgar kind of brushes it off

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Speaker 2: as this idea of well, maybe it was like an

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Speaker 2: insane guy or something. And when Gilroy discovers the blood,

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Speaker 2: then he's like, I've got to tell police. So this

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Speaker 2: all happens within the first twenty four hours after Vicki's murder.

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Speaker 1: So Edgar had borrowed Joe's car, and what did he

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Speaker 1: say he was gonna go do with it?

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Speaker 2: And he didn't really give a good excuse, and Joe

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Speaker 2: went to bed and then was watching TV and then

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Speaker 2: he wakes up and there's Edgar on the phone again

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Speaker 2: and it's like, Okay, I have your car, let me

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Speaker 2: pick you up and we can go somewhere. They kind

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Speaker 2: of just acted like dumb young guys. Yeah, but obviously

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Speaker 2: this takes on a much more sinister sheen when it

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Speaker 2: turns out that not only is there blood in the car,

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Speaker 2: but then police discover Edgar's bloody pants that were sort

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Speaker 2: of discarded nearby.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk about the evidence, which is very little.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like, I know that he has this car,

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Speaker 1: there's blood in the car. Did they match the blood

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Speaker 1: to her blood? I'm assuming in this car.

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Speaker 2: I don't even necessarily think they got that far. There

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Speaker 2: was some other circumstantial evidence that there was blood on

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Speaker 2: other articles, that there were other items found in the

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Speaker 2: vicinity of Edgar's trailer. He never outright confesses to murdering Vicky,

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Speaker 2: but he does make incriminating statements, essentially along the lines of, well,

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Speaker 2: maybe I had something to do with it.

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Speaker 1: Edgar claims that he wasn't the only one at the scene,

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Speaker 1: and Don Hummel was there, this guy who Vicky was dating.

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Speaker 1: Is that his defense?

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Speaker 2: So the whole idea is that he's present at the scene,

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Speaker 2: but so is Don Homil, and that Edgar Smith leaves

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Speaker 2: and somehow magically Homil and Vicky.

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Speaker 1: Are still there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's ludicrous on its face, but they needed

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Speaker 2: a defense strategy, and the patent and some other guy

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Speaker 2: did it seemed to make sense.

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Speaker 1: How are they handling this interrogation.

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Speaker 2: It's less about outright physical violence, although there are insinuations

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Speaker 2: of that. There's just a lot of deprivation that he

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Speaker 2: asks for food and water and doesn't necessarily get it

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Speaker 2: at the times that he requests it. Certainly there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of lack of sleep and we now know that

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Speaker 2: someone staying up for many many hours and many many

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Speaker 2: days is a sign of torture. Yeah, so just the

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Speaker 2: way that they handled it, even though for their time

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Speaker 2: I suppose would be quote benign, but to our modern

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Speaker 2: day eyes, it still feels very much under question. So

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Speaker 2: was there a witness to put them together at any

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Speaker 2: point Vicki and Edgar that night?

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Speaker 1: No, there was not.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't as if anybody spotted his car. It was

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Speaker 2: just pretty much a circumstantial case.

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Speaker 1: Did we get the impression that he snatched her or

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Speaker 1: she got in and got a ride from him.

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Speaker 2: Most likely she was walking home, he was driving by.

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Speaker 2: She knows him, He knows her. She gets in, and

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Speaker 2: then they have some kind of argument or altercation. He

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Speaker 2: claims that she said something disparaging about his wife having

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Speaker 2: an affair, which is again ludicrous because pat is young

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Speaker 2: and she's at home with a three month old baby.

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Speaker 2: It isn't impossible, but it's just highly unlikely that that

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Speaker 2: would have happened, according to the way Edgar tried to

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Speaker 2: spin it. So something happened and then she gets out

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Speaker 2: of the car, he chases after her. They end up

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Speaker 2: in the sand pit. He gets a rock and that's

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Speaker 2: how she meets her device. But of course he claimed

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Speaker 2: that they were in the car. She said something nasty

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Speaker 2: and then they go out to the embankment, but then

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Speaker 2: he leaves her there and somehow magically Don Hamel is there.

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Speaker 2: Like it's just every time I would read that, I

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Speaker 2: just think, who are you trying to convince? And yet

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Speaker 2: so many people were convinced of Edgar Smith's outright innocence,

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Speaker 2: let alone that there was something fishy with how the

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Speaker 2: interrogation or how the trial ensued.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so remind me again, I might have forgotten. How

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Speaker 1: does Joe's car get back to him? Does Edgar drive

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Speaker 1: the car back?

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Speaker 2: I believe Edgar comes to Joe's place, picks him up,

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Speaker 2: and then they meet up with Don Hamel at a

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Speaker 2: gas station and they go into town and Edgar wants

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Speaker 2: to get a haircut and he's just acting a little

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Speaker 2: bit weird, and that's when they have the conversation about Vicky.

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Speaker 1: And then he's.

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Speaker 2: Dropped off at the trailer park, got it, and Joe

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Speaker 2: takes the car home, and when he's by himself in

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Speaker 2: the car, that's when he notices the blood.

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Speaker 1: So Patricia Horton his wife. What is her reaction? He's

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Speaker 1: twenty three, held is she with this young child? I

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Speaker 1: believe nineteen? Okay, she was really young. So what is

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Speaker 1: her reaction to this whole thing? Does she say, there's

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Speaker 1: no way my husband did this. That's what she says publicly. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to the trial before we go

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Speaker 1: to Edgar's time in prison. How is Vicky presented by

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Speaker 1: the defense? I guess the good news is that she

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Speaker 1: wasn't as slutshamed as I thought she would be by

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Speaker 1: the defense. But even so, the fact that he names

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Speaker 1: Hommel as a suspect and talks about their relationship and

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Speaker 1: cast suspersions, it's sort of like more subtle slutshaming as

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Speaker 1: opposed to avert. And it's just this idea of that

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Speaker 1: the nature of the crime, that she was murdered so

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Speaker 1: savagely that her head was bashed in, and the fact

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Speaker 1: that her virginity status is even discussed in open court

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Speaker 1: that automatically lends a sexual element, especially because it's not warranted.

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Speaker 1: Is what is happening in their household? In Vicki's household

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Speaker 1: brought out at all? You were kind of touching on

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Speaker 1: some abuse, was anybody else's suspect from her house.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's interesting you mentioned that because when William F. Buckley,

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Speaker 2: founder of the National Review, gets on in the case,

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Speaker 2: and there is a private investigator, Andy Nichol, who I

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Speaker 2: don't really talk a lot about in the book, just

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Speaker 2: because you ever find a character that you know that

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Speaker 2: if you start writing him, he's going to take over

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Speaker 2: the whole book. And I felt like with Nicol, he

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Speaker 2: had firmly believed in Edgar's innocence and he would prepare

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Speaker 2: these reports talking to everybody. So at one point he

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Speaker 2: was digging into Anthony's earlier life and trying to connect

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Speaker 2: him to some unsolved murder of a girl twenty years

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Speaker 2: before that was never proven. There is no evidence that

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Speaker 2: Anthony Zelenski had anything to do with any prior case.

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Speaker 2: But what is in the record is that at one point,

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Speaker 2: a couple of years after Vicky's murder, he is arrested

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Speaker 2: for domestic violence for hitting his wife. And so the

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Speaker 2: charges ultimately don't go anywhere, and it was never able

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Speaker 2: to find disposition of it. But she files for divorce

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Speaker 2: within a few months and make some pretty incendiary charges

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Speaker 2: about the level of his abuse and how horrible it

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Speaker 2: was to be married to him, and so the divorce

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Speaker 2: is granted, and then after a terrible accident that claims

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Speaker 2: a couple of her fingers, she and her younger kids

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Speaker 2: will eventually move to California. So clearly, just based on

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Speaker 2: the incendiary charges that are in this divorce complaint, Mary

285
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Speaker 2: had claimed that the abuse dated back to the nineteen

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Speaker 2: forties when Vicki was very young. So it's hard for

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Speaker 2: me to know and to what degree Vicki had witnessed

288
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Speaker 2: or was abused herself, But the fact that such charges

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Speaker 2: could be made lend credence to the idea that this

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Speaker 2: was not a great place to grow up.

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Speaker 1: In terrible and then she dies the way she dies

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Speaker 1: in such violence. Let's talk about the end of the

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Speaker 1: trial the jury has heard? Is this a male jury?

294
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Speaker 1: All male jury? Sometimes I can't keep up with the

295
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Speaker 1: timeline of when women were allowed to be on juries,

296
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Speaker 1: and I know it very state to state.

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Speaker 2: There's so many different lists and documents that I was

298
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Speaker 2: consulting to write Scoundrel, and I know I have a

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Speaker 2: list of all twelve jurors, and again this is different

300
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Speaker 2: than today, but they would just name who the jurors

301
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Speaker 2: were en list their addresses, so I was able to

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Speaker 2: figure out who they were.

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Speaker 1: The foreman was male.

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Speaker 2: And so when they deliberated again, as I mentioned, not

305
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Speaker 2: only did it take less than two hours, I think

306
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Speaker 2: it was like an hour twenty. It was shockingly quick

307
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Speaker 2: how they arrived at the guilty verdict. To Edgar Smith, like,

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Speaker 2: it's almost like they didn't have to deliberate very much.

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Speaker 2: They probably took one vote and said guilty and that

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Speaker 2: was that.

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Speaker 1: And this is ninety percent based on the blood I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming right, And he confessed he saw her that night

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Speaker 1: and she was in that car.

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Speaker 2: I think also he did testify in his own defense,

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Speaker 2: and he was pretty heavily grilled by the prosecutor, Guy

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Speaker 2: Kalisi on cross, So I think that also lent itself

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Speaker 2: to he's not a double witness and we think what

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Speaker 2: happened is pretty strong.

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Speaker 1: Therefore he was convicted. So what did he offer a

320
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Speaker 1: lot of inconsistencies on cross.

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Speaker 2: Pretty much he was just kind of shifty and he

322
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Speaker 2: was trying to be calm. But Guy CALESI would catch

323
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Speaker 2: him in some errors in his timeline and the like,

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Speaker 2: and it lasted. I think it went into two or

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Speaker 2: three days of solid cross. It took a long time.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, so he didn't do any favors for himself

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Speaker 1: on the stand. He gets convicted and he's sentenced to death.

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Speaker 1: Where's he going? What prison? So?

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Speaker 2: Trenton State Prison in Trenton, New Jersey had a wing

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Speaker 2: that was devoted to death row inmates. It was called

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Speaker 2: the Death House, then a later iteration would be called

332
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Speaker 2: three Wing, and it was pretty foul place to be.

333
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Speaker 2: Edgar and other death row prisoners were only allowed to

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Speaker 2: be out of their cell one hour a day, so

335
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Speaker 2: essentially they were in solitary the whole time. And he

336
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Speaker 2: passed the time by reading and taking call courses by

337
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,600
Speaker 2: correspondents and writing a lot of letters and working on

338
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Speaker 2: his appeals and becoming a pro se jail house lawyer.

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Speaker 1: And at one.

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Speaker 2: Point in nineteen fifty eighty comes, I believe within half

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Speaker 2: an hour of being executed before it is finally stayed.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: So that's how close it got.

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Speaker 2: And so for Patricia and Patty Ann and Patricia's mother

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Speaker 2: and Edgar's mother and Chupac who was very fervent in

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Speaker 2: her belief that her son was innocent and was trying

347
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Speaker 2: to pay lawyers to help him until.

348
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Speaker 1: They all ran out of money.

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Speaker 2: So this would also be a recurring theme that they

350
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Speaker 2: would hire a lawyer, he would try to do something

351
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Speaker 2: in stay at federal court, and then the money would

352
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Speaker 2: run out, and then they would try to get somebody

353
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Speaker 2: on the public defender side and then pay when they could.

354
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Speaker 1: So that's also why when William F.

355
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Speaker 2: Buckley enters the scene, it's not just that he genuinely

356
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Speaker 2: believes in Edgar's innocence. It's that he's able to create

357
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Speaker 2: a defense fund or help facilitate a defense fund that

358
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Speaker 2: can keep those appeals going all the way to the

359
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Speaker 2: Supreme Court.

360
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Speaker 1: So give me the cliff notes version of William F.

361
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Speaker 1: Buckley and how we get to in the nineteen fifties,

362
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Speaker 1: how this man who would become a titan conservatism has

363
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Speaker 1: now taken up this case. So William F.

364
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Speaker 2: Buckley was born into privilege in Connecticut. He was one

365
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Speaker 2: of I believe ten children, and his father, will had

366
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Speaker 2: been an oil man and prominent in Mexico. Grew up Catholic,

367
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Speaker 2: and they believed in counter revolution. It wasn't just that

368
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Speaker 2: they were conservatives, except the world was something to revolt

369
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Speaker 2: against and to fight against and then Buckley himself. He

370
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,760
Speaker 2: was educated in boarding schools and then he went to

371
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Speaker 2: Yale and became a star debater, and that led to

372
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Speaker 2: his first book, God and Man at Yale, which essentially

373
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Speaker 2: argued that the liberal system of education was broken and

374
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Speaker 2: needed to be completely rebuilt and fixed. So that launched

375
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Speaker 2: him as a young conservative star. And then a few

376
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Speaker 2: years later he found a magazine called National Review, which

377
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,439
Speaker 2: is essentially there to promote conservative ideas, this idea we

378
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,679
Speaker 2: have to stand athwart history, yelling stop that progress is

379
00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,199
Speaker 2: too much for us to bear, and we need to

380
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,040
Speaker 2: put everything in our tracks. And of course by progressivism

381
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Speaker 2: it means civil rights.

382
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Speaker 1: And gender equality.

383
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,760
Speaker 2: And later he would get into trouble for an essay

384
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,680
Speaker 2: that was anti gay and just really homophobic, and you

385
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,240
Speaker 2: would write racist essays. So there are a lot of

386
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,080
Speaker 2: terrible opinions that Buckley had and he was able to

387
00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,240
Speaker 2: disseminate them not just through National Review, but also through

388
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Speaker 2: the column on the Right that was syndicated in newspapers

389
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,639
Speaker 2: all across the country and beyond. So he learns of

390
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,440
Speaker 2: Edgar Smith basically because there's a newspaper article in which

391
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Speaker 2: Edgar is quoted as saying that the warden had brought

392
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,679
Speaker 2: a copy of National Review, and now that warden had

393
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,919
Speaker 2: been moved, so he no longer had access to the

394
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:34,560
Speaker 2: magazine and he felt.

395
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 1: Bad about it.

396
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,920
Speaker 2: And so Buckley hears about this and offers to send

397
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,480
Speaker 2: him a lifetime subscription, and one of the reporters who

398
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,960
Speaker 2: was working for National Review, Donald Cox, eventually writes an

399
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,000
Speaker 2: article on Edgar Smith for a National Review in nineteen

400
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 2: sixty three, So they were the initial correspondence, but then

401
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,680
Speaker 2: Buckley kind of takes over in tandem, and then after

402
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,240
Speaker 2: the piece is published, they really start to correspond a

403
00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,040
Speaker 2: lot more about Edgar's play and what he needs for

404
00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,959
Speaker 2: his defense, and books and ideas and politics, so that

405
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,119
Speaker 2: by the time Buckley himself writes about Edgar Smith in

406
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five, they are not only firm friends, but

407
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,280
Speaker 2: they've written essentially thousands of pages of correspondence between one another.

408
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,480
Speaker 2: Edgar doesn't strike me as a big reader that comes

409
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,439
Speaker 2: in death rout, because essentially, after a few years of

410
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,080
Speaker 2: feeling sorry for himself and just wanting to make sure

411
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,640
Speaker 2: that he wasn't executed, he's like, well, if I'm in here,

412
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,720
Speaker 2: I might as well better myself and I might as

413
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,120
Speaker 2: well start reading and take college courses and learn about

414
00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:30,600
Speaker 2: the world.

415
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:32,399
Speaker 1: And that's what he does.

416
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,600
Speaker 2: And so even though the correspondence with Buckley kind of

417
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,720
Speaker 2: starts in this very accidental way, the fact that Edgar

418
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,440
Speaker 2: does seem to write well, and he starts to kind

419
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,680
Speaker 2: of mimic the way that Buckley writes as well. It's

420
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,639
Speaker 2: very laconic, it's very measured, and a few flourishes of

421
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,120
Speaker 2: phrase that gets Buckley's attention because these are the things

422
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 2: that he values. He values people who can write well.

423
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 2: He values people who can express their opinions. He values

424
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 2: people who seem to have sharp minds. And because he

425
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 2: has come to believe that Edgar is innocent, that furthers

426
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:05,119
Speaker 2: the buy in.

427
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 1: What can William F. Buckley actually do in a situation?

428
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,480
Speaker 2: Well, certainly he can write articles like the one that

429
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 2: he wrote for Esquire Magazine called The Approaching End of

430
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 2: Edgar H. Smith Junior, in which he outlines his version

431
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 2: of what happened and the flaws and the interrogation and

432
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 2: essentially why he believes that Edgar didn't do it and

433
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,679
Speaker 2: that Donald Hommell is a much better suspect. And then

434
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,639
Speaker 2: at the end of the piece, he says, if you

435
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 2: are moved by this story, you can donate to a

436
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 2: defense fund that has been set up. So Buckley himself

437
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 2: doesn't set it up, but he does provide the initial funds,

438
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 2: and other people just start writing in and donating. And so,

439
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 2: because there had been some articles already about Buckley trying

440
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,120
Speaker 2: to visit Edgar in person, which became a whole protracted

441
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,679
Speaker 2: ordeal because the death house did not allow media to

442
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 2: go in, and so Buckley essentially had to get a

443
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,600
Speaker 2: court order to say I'm part of his legal defense team,

444
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 2: and that's how he was allowed in.

445
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 1: So he writes this article.

446
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,680
Speaker 2: There's this defense fund, and people start donating, and one

447
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 2: of the people who donates and also gets in touch

448
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,920
Speaker 2: with Buckley is a book editor named Sophie Wilkins who

449
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 2: is working at Alfred A. Kanoff, and she had read

450
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,959
Speaker 2: the Esquire piece and into its that, based on Edgar's

451
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,639
Speaker 2: writing style in the letters that are quoted, he's working

452
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,159
Speaker 2: on something. Is he writing on a book yet? So

453
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,959
Speaker 2: at that point the answer is no. Within a few months, however,

454
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 2: he writes to Buckley that he is indeed working on

455
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 2: a book about his plight, and essentially asserting his innocence

456
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 2: in Vicki's murder.

457
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,040
Speaker 1: So he gets a book deal. Is that what we're

458
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:48,719
Speaker 1: leading up to?

459
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,879
Speaker 2: Buckley helps get a book deal. Yes, that's true. So

460
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 2: just to kind of backtrack, Sophie Wilkins was originally from Vienna, Austria,

461
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 2: and she and her family emigrated when she was twelve.

462
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 2: She didn't speak of English. She was entirely self taught.

463
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 2: She would graduate high school early. She'd go to Brooklyn College.

464
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,560
Speaker 2: She eventually landed at Columbia. She would do graduate work there.

465
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 2: She would also teach and work as a secretary to

466
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,399
Speaker 2: Lionel Trilling. She married several times, so that by the

467
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,439
Speaker 2: time she kind of enters in the narrative, she's on

468
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,200
Speaker 2: her third husband, another academic and writer, who's suffering from

469
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 2: a lot of mental health issues, and she's essentially allotting

470
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 2: a lot of her psychological and emotional time to giving

471
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 2: care to him. And so she's alienated at work, she's

472
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 2: not really acquiring a lot of books. She's older than

473
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 2: most of the other editors, and her sons are away

474
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 2: at college, so she's sort of at loose end. She's lonely,

475
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 2: she's alienated, and then reading this esquire piece on Edgar Smith,

476
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 2: and then learning from Buckley that he is indeed working

477
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 2: on a manuscript. She finally is in touch, first with

478
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 2: Edgar's mother, and then she and Edgar start corresponding properly

479
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,640
Speaker 2: in July of nineteen sixty seven, and at first it's

480
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 2: all business, just talking about the state of the manuscript,

481
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 2: how much he has left to right, whether he needs

482
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 2: an agent, what books he might be reading, And then,

483
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 2: because of Sophie's nature to be very hypergraphic and overshrry,

484
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 2: Edgar's letters take on that quality as well, so that

485
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 2: within several months they're essentially declaring love to one another.

486
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 2: And even though she goes to meet him and it

487
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 2: has a very disappointing experience where essentially the Edgar of

488
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 2: the letters does not match the Edgar in person. He's

489
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 2: a lot more taciturn, she's sort of put off by

490
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,880
Speaker 2: his northern New Jersey accent. He seems to be upset

491
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 2: that he's having issues with his teeth, that they're broken

492
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 2: or ill colored or whatever. But then they just sort

493
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 2: of move past that and just continue on with the

494
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 2: trajectory of their letters, which grow increasingly romantic and then

495
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 2: increasingly erotic, and you have to imagine what it's like

496
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,360
Speaker 2: for me to be in the archives reading these letters.

497
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, as they get progressively weirder and off the rails,

498
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 2: and I'm just sitting there, going.

499
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 1: What am I reading? And did anyone read this before me?

500
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 2: And I'm pretty sure the answer is no, which was

501
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 2: also just kind of terrifying in its own way. But

502
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 2: that's the nature of archival researches, I know, you know

503
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 2: that you discover things that have essentially been hiding in

504
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 2: plain sight the whole time.

505
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: Whose archive is this in? I'm not going to go

506
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 1: read these letters, but I'm just curious who would put these?

507
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: Does she have an archive? She does? Oh wow?

508
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 2: When Sophie Wilkins died in two thousand and three, she

509
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 2: kept everything. She didn't really look through them, and I

510
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 2: am sure for a lot of reasons she didn't really

511
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: want to revisit this correspondence that she had with Edgar Smith.

512
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 2: That it was just easier to shove it in a

513
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: box and forget about it. But it was still there.

514
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 2: So they're all donated to Columbia University.

515
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

516
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,199
Speaker 2: And one day in twenty sixteen, I'm just looking for

517
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,959
Speaker 2: material and I see Edgar Smith's name mentioned in this archive,

518
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 2: and I was like, that's interesting. I didn't know Sophie

519
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 2: Wilkins had an archive. I had known she was his

520
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: book editor. So I go there thinking it's just going

521
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 2: to be typical professional correspondence between Edgar and Sophie, and

522
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 2: then I start reading and my jaw.

523
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: Drops because it's very much the opposite.

524
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,360
Speaker 2: But it was really important for me, and thus it's

525
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: important for the listener and the reader to remember that

526
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 2: this woman is engaging in this very inappropriate relationship with

527
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 2: a man who she thinks that he didn't do it,

528
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 2: but it's very possible. And of course now we know

529
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 2: he did murder a teenage girl, and somehow both she

530
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 2: and William F. Buckley and others who believed in Edgar's

531
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 2: innocence sort of put that knowledge elsewhere. They just didn't

532
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 2: want to think about, Well, maybe he did murder vic

533
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 2: gi Zelenski.

534
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: Maybe he is capable of it.

535
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 2: But he writes so well, and he's able to produce

536
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 2: a published book and it says interesting things about the

537
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: criminal justice system.

538
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he says the right things, and he's romantic

539
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: in letters, so he's like a shape shifter. He is

540
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: a chameleon. Yeah, he's very much a chameleon. We both

541
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: dealt with those, you and I, I think in books

542
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 1: in the past. Yes, So she is fallen in love

543
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 1: with this guy. She's taking up his cause he has

544
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 1: a book deal. He's better off than most writers I know.

545
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: At this point. He's in prison though, and he's on

546
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: death row. How do we shift from throw thirty minutes

547
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: away from being executed to him actually walking out to

548
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: the prison in Trenton.

549
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 2: Well, that takes a few years, because nothing ever happens

550
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 2: super quickly in this story. From the time that he

551
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 2: is convicted and sentenced to death to the time that

552
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 2: he walks free, it's nearly fifteen years. So after essentially

553
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 2: incubating his first book with Sophie in this deeply inappropriate way,

554
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,479
Speaker 2: that book, Brief Against Death, is finally published in the

555
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 2: fall of nineteen sixty eight. It's successful to some degree.

556
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: It's very critically acclaimed. It gets rave reviews from the

557
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,880
Speaker 2: likes of crime writer Ross MacDonald in The New York Times,

558
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 2: which never fails to stagger me. But about a month

559
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 2: or so after the book is published, the Supreme Court

560
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 2: finally rules on Edgar's case, and they determined that his

561
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 2: confession was made under duress, that it should not have

562
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: been used in the trial, and so they're going to

563
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 2: throw it out, and therefore it's remanded and he's eventually

564
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 2: going to get a new trial, but it takes a

565
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 2: few more years. There's some other procedural stuff happening in

566
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 2: the state court, so he's not immediately let out, and

567
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 2: then there's a hearing in early nineteen seventy one where

568
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 2: the judge essentially says, yeah, like this confession, we can't

569
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 2: use it. He needs a new trial. And so there's

570
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: some back and forth. It's a question of what's Edgar

571
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 2: going to do. Is he going to go on trial again?

572
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 2: Is he going to plead guilty? And so he and

573
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 2: his lawyers work it out, even though he protests a lot,

574
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 2: but finally he's convinced to plead guilty to second degree murder.

575
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 2: They didn't have an Alford plea in New Jersey, but

576
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 2: it's essentially a functional Oflfered plea that he would admit

577
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: guilt in court. And he does, and he set free

578
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 2: and he gets time served. But then the first thing

579
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 2: that he does is he gets into a limo with

580
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 2: Buckley and they go across the river and they tape

581
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 2: a couple of episodes of firing Line.

582
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: That's Buckley's public affairs TV show, And.

583
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 2: Within the first few minutes of that first episode, where

584
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 2: it's just Buckley and Smith speaking on the show, Smith's like,

585
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 2: I didn't do it. I just said what I wanted

586
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 2: to the court to get out. And so when in

587
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 2: the second segment, several reporters, including one very persistent one

588
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 2: from the New York Time His named Ronald Sullivan, just interrogates.

589
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: Smith like, what are you doing?

590
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 2: Why did you say one thing in court and now

591
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: you're saying this other thing? Did you perjure yourself? And

592
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 2: Buckley's just like, we can't discuss this anymore. We need

593
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: to move on.

594
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: So he is still out and free.

595
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: Right the first night that Edgar is free, he's at

596
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 2: the Saint Regis Hotel, there is a little party that

597
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 2: Buckley throws at his Mizzonette on the Upper East Side,

598
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 2: and even then people who met him, including Buckley's wife Pat,

599
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 2: there's a wonderful but ultimately I could not nail down

600
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 2: the sourcing entirely, So it's just a footnote in my book,

601
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 2: but apparently, according to people who heard it later, at

602
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 2: one point they lose track of where Edgar is and

603
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 2: Pat yells, get that murderer out of my bedroom.

604
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: So she saw right through.

605
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: Him, and there was no love lost, and did not

606
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: want to be around him and did not want anything

607
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 2: to do with him. And at that point Edgar had

608
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 2: not only published the nonfiction book Brief Against Death, he

609
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: had also published a novel called A Reasonable Doubt, which

610
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: is a fictionalization of his case and in some ways is

611
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 2: a lot harder to read than Brief Against Death is

612
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: because the nonfiction book, with Sophie's editing, it actually is

613
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: kind of well written, or there's a persuasive element to it.

614
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: So I felt myself getting sucked in, even though I

615
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: knew very well what actually happened. And yet I could

616
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: see from a craft standpoint, how he was using his

617
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 2: powers of persuasion, even on someone very well versed like

618
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 2: I was. So if that's how it was working on me,

619
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: how would it work on someone who had no knowledge

620
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: and just thought, oh, yeah, of course he's innocent.

621
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: Of course he didn't kill this girl.

622
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 2: So he had published that book, he was working on

623
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: another nonfiction book, he was working on sort of a

624
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: popcorn thriller that he published pseudonymously, and he claimed that

625
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: he had stuff with editors at Playboy and some other magazines.

626
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 2: So for the first year he was kind of doing okay,

627
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: and he was giving speaking gigs at criminal justice conferences

628
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 2: and going to legal proceedings and then opining about them

629
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: and writing op eds. But by the time the next

630
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: nonfiction book out is published, that's when things start to

631
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: go south. So he travels, he loses track of money.

632
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: He takes up with a young woman in Bergen County

633
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 2: who's about twenty years younger and very innocent in the

634
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 2: ways of the world, even though she's very smart, and

635
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 2: they get married and move out to San Diego, and

636
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: there's a time when he and Buckley aren't in touch

637
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: because he's kind of defaulted on a loan that Buckley

638
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 2: had signed for, so there's some correspondence to that effect,

639
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 2: and then finally had resourfaces and apologizes and claims he's

640
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,479
Speaker 2: going to pay it back, but that doesn't really happen,

641
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: and then they meet again in person in seventy five

642
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 2: when Buckley's giving a lecture and Buckley meets Edgar's second wife,

643
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: Page as well, and there's a letter between them where

644
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: essentially Edgar writes, well, I'm at this point and it

645
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: feels like deja vu. My wife is working.

646
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: I'm not.

647
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 2: I'm having trouble getting much in the way of writing work.

648
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 2: And this feels a lot like it did in the

649
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 2: late fifties. And it's like, oh, here's this foreshadowing. Yeah,

650
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 2: and then cut to about a year later and he

651
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 2: is legitimately out of work and Page is legitimately supporting him,

652
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 2: and he goes in for a job at I think

653
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 2: the San Diego Union Tribune and they say no, and

654
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: all the old rage is back.

655
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: And that's when he takes.

656
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 2: Page's car and starts driving, and he sees a woman

657
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 2: coming out of her job and kidnaps her.

658
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: Tell me about the woman. This is in seventy six,

659
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: isn't right? That's right?

660
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

661
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 2: So Liftiria Osbun, although she was usually known as Lisa,

662
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 2: was a young woman. She was working at this clothing shop.

663
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 2: She was married, had kids. I believe she was on

664
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 2: her second marriage and he was on his second marriage,

665
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: so they had like a blended family. She was in

666
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 2: her early thirties and she was just like a regular

667
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 2: person and had never met Edgar Smith in her life before.

668
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: And he grabs her.

669
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 2: From the parking lot and pushes her into the car,

670
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: and they struggle and he stabs her, and he stabs

671
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: her some more, but she is fighting the whole time

672
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: and manages to get the car pulled over and the

673
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 2: door open, and then other drive are getting out of

674
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 2: their car and trying to figure out what's going on,

675
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: and she finally rolls out of the car and is

676
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: by the side of the road and he takes off

677
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: in the car.

678
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: Oh wow, so he's a fugitive for a while.

679
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, But they do track the license plate and they

680
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: trace it to Page and from there they trace it

681
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 2: to Edgar. And that's also when Buckley learns that Edgar

682
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 2: has done this crime and that he's on the run,

683
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: and he figures that Edgar's going to call him, but

684
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 2: that takes a little bit of time, and he somehow

685
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: gets his way to New York, and he borrows money

686
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: from his old editor, and he claims that he goes

687
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: to Vicky's grave and like has contrition, but I think

688
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: that's not necessarily true. And finally, about ten or so

689
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 2: days later, he ends up in Las Vegas, and he

690
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: calls the National Review Offices. Buckley's not there, but his secretary,

691
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: Francis Bronson, picks up, and so Edgar says, is Buckley there,

692
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: and Francis, quick thinking says no, He's in New Mexico

693
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: on a speaking engagement, and Edgar gives Buckley essentially the

694
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: information as to where he is. So Francis relays this

695
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: to Buckley. Buckley calls the FBI. Finally, Yes, the FBI

696
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 2: shows up and arrests Edgar, who is at the hotel

697
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 2: under an assumed name. And so Lisa survives. We know

698
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: that right she does. She died in twenty nineteen.

699
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: Did you get to talk to her for this book?

700
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: I did not.

701
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: I wish that I had, but I think by the

702
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 2: time I was really seriously reaching out, she was already

703
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 2: not doing well and her husband had died some years before,

704
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: And obviously would be great if her children or other relatives,

705
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 2: if they were listening to this, or if they happen

706
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: to read about scoundrel that.

707
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: My door's always open to be in touch.

708
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 2: That's the way I always try to operate with sources

709
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 2: and unable to reach out to in time for a

710
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: book's publication, like the doors should always be open for that.

711
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do we know what Edgar's reaction is to Buckley

712
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: being the one who turns him in the second time.

713
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think he learns that straight away, although

714
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: I believe when Edgar is in jail awaiting trial, he

715
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 2: had asked through a proxy for Buckley to offer some

716
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 2: kind of character reference that could be used, and Buckley declined.

717
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: He just was like, I'm done.

718
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 2: I have no interest in having any kind of relationship

719
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 2: with this man going forward ever again. And so there

720
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: is a trial and Edgar does some very strange things

721
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 2: where he claims that he's a mentally disordered sex offender

722
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 2: and that it was a crime rooted in sex, and

723
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: he finally admits to killing Victoria Zelensky once and for all,

724
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 2: and he claims to have remorse. But the prosecutor sees

725
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 2: through this because, for some reason in California at the time,

726
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 2: if you claim to be a sex offender, that you

727
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: would get less time in prison than if it was

728
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 2: just a robbery or if it was just a straight

729
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: up murder or attempted murder.

730
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 1: It's still a capital crime, though, wasn't.

731
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 2: It In seventy six, even though I think the death

732
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 2: penalty was in the books.

733
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 1: You know, he didn't kill Lisa Osben. It was attempted murder.

734
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 2: Therefore that would not be a capital crime, right, but

735
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 2: he still faced the prospect of spending the rest of

736
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 2: his life in prison.

737
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: So then what ultimately happens.

738
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 2: Well, he's found guilty and he's sent in to life,

739
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 2: but at the time, you could be paroled within just

740
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 2: a few short years. So he sentenced in seventy seven,

741
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 2: and I think the first parole hearing is in the

742
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: early eighties, and certainly by eighty three there's one, and

743
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: it's just like he's up for the parole seems like

744
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 2: every other year, although some years he would just decline

745
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 2: and so there'd be periodic articles written about it in

746
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 2: the La Times and then the Bergen County newspapers. And

747
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 2: the last major time that he was up for parole

748
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 2: was in two thousand and nine, and at that point

749
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: he was denied for fifteen years, and if he had

750
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 2: gotten out, if it was twenty twenty four and he

751
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 2: was still alive, he'd be ninety. So he was definitely

752
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: going to be spending the rest of his life in prison.

753
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 2: And so backtracking to nineteen seventy nine, that's the last

754
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 2: time that Buckley publicly writes about Edgar Smith in any

755
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: meaningful way. He is asked by Life magazine to essentially write,

756
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 2: if not Ameya Kulpa, then what the hell happened and

757
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 2: just detail how things fell off so spectacularly that Edgar,

758
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: who had been on top of the world, is now

759
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: in prison again for New life murdering a woman. So

760
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 2: Buckley kind of traces through that. And I wouldn't say

761
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 2: that it's super self reflective, but he's trying to grapple

762
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 2: with something.

763
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: And there are.

764
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 2: Some private indications and conversations with people who knew Edgar,

765
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 2: especially with Sophie, that there is some remorse, There is

766
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 2: some regret, There is some sense of we are survivors

767
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: in a shared war. But then by the early eighties,

768
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 2: it's like, no more discussion. Yeah, And I was able

769
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 2: to talk to some people who knew Buckley, and I

770
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 2: would ask them did he ever talk about the Edgar

771
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 2: Smith case? And they flat out said no, it just

772
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 2: wasn't ever a topic of discussion.

773
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: What about Sophie Wilkins.

774
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 2: There was a lot of private regret. She would write

775
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 2: to Buckley. She would write to others she felt as

776
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 2: if there was some culpability that she sort of forgot

777
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: about Vicky Zelinsky, that she could just sort of put

778
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 2: her story aside because it was much more important to

779
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 2: midwife brief against death and to existence. And so she

780
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 2: would later claim after the fact that it was all

781
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: the Ruthe She didn't really fall in love with him,

782
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: She didn't really have an emotional connection. It was really

783
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,479
Speaker 2: just about the book. And that feels a little post

784
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 2: talk to me. Yeah, that she's trying to justify what happened.

785
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 2: And I think having read her letters, there was something

786
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: and I think it may not have been real.

787
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 1: But I think she felt that it was real.

788
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 2: And that's why when he gets out, and even though

789
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 2: they don't have that sort of sexual emotional connection anymore,

790
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 2: she still asked him to come visit her at the office,

791
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: and he just doesn't show up and is rude to

792
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 2: her in other circumstances, So it just didn't end well.

793
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like she benefited from that. Obviously she

794
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: shouldn't have. I mean, boy, if he had really drawn

795
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: her in after he got out, what a disaster that

796
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: would have been for her.

797
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: Well, he was trying to draw other people in after

798
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 2: he got out, although that was not so much from

799
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,720
Speaker 2: a book publishing standpoint but from a will you spend

800
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 2: your life with me?

801
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: Standpoint.

802
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 2: We didn't even discuss Juliet Scheinman, who is a woman

803
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: who had started corresponding with Edgar late in his time

804
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 2: on death Row and was sort of his first post

805
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 2: prison girlfriend. And she lived in New York. She had

806
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 2: a couple of kids. She was an aspiring actor, she

807
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 2: was an activist. But then within a couple of months

808
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: it was all over because they went on a driving

809
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 2: trip together and at one point he starts choking her,

810
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: and she's like, stop the car, stop the car, and

811
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 2: somehow gently talks him off the ledge and manages to

812
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 2: convince him to drive back and take her home. But

813
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 2: after that it's over. So he did display these moments

814
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 2: of rage to people he was intimate with, and that

815
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 2: was also true with his first wife, Patricia and his

816
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 2: second wife Page. When he had the opportunity to hurt

817
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 2: women in any way, shape or form, he would.

818
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 1: Does Victoria Zelenski have any sort of representation as these

819
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: parole hearings come up. Does she have siblings who come,

820
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: I don't know if her parents were still around.

821
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 2: Well, her father died in the seventies, her mother died

822
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 2: in two thousand and one, and her siblings no, they

823
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 2: just it was too painful, another instance of this is

824
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 2: traumatic to process, We're not going to talk about it anymore.

825
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 2: I was able to reach out to Vicky's niece, who

826
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: was very helpful, although the interview that we did is

827
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 2: not directly reference in the book, but she basically said,

828
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,760
Speaker 2: this just wasn't something we talked about, and I wanted

829
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: to know more, and my mother and my aunt just

830
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 2: they couldn't.

831
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: It was just too much. So ultimately, what happens with

832
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 1: Edgar Smith he dies in prison.

833
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,959
Speaker 2: He does die in prison, but not before finally reconnecting

834
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: with his daughter and granddaughter. And so I was able

835
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 2: to track them down and they were very cooperative and

836
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,919
Speaker 2: helpful in speaking with me, and they described just how

837
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: he he was able to somehow have money, he had

838
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: an investment account, pension.

839
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: Or I mean seriously, yeah, I know.

840
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: He claimed in his last parole hearing that if he

841
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 2: got out he would make his living as an author.

842
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 1: And I couldn't help it.

843
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 2: Snickers, like, really, do you understand how the economics of

844
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 2: this work.

845
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: It's no, not happening.

846
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 2: So he reconnects with Pattienn and Patti Enn's daughter and

847
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 2: essentially pays for their ticket to come visit him, which

848
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 2: they do, and he acts very weird and changes his

849
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: story again and is now claiming he didn't kill Vicki,

850
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 2: which baffles them because they know otherwise. And he had

851
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 2: this habit of keeping tabs on people, so he would

852
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 2: send Patty and stuff relating to her high school transcripts,

853
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: and he was always on the alert about Page who

854
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: Again he divorced, and it was an acrimonious divorce and

855
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 2: he would later sue her and he would essentially stalked

856
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 2: her from prison.

857
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: It was a pretty horrible thing.

858
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: It was cyberstalking because she would get stuff delivered to

859
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 2: her address and she would have no idea how he

860
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: knew her address, and it would just freaker out. For

861
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 2: that last parole hearing, she spoke with a reporter and

862
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 2: just basically said, he cannot get out, like he will

863
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: ruin my life.

864
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: If that happens.

865
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 2: Because of how I worked on Scoundrel, I started preliminary

866
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: research and reporting at the end of twenty fourteen and

867
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: So I was reaching out to various people, including Edgar Smith,

868
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: because he was still alive then, and I had to

869
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 2: sort of tread carefully and think about how I was

870
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 2: going to approach him, because even by that point I

871
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 2: knew he had told a million different versions of what happened.

872
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: The one that I land on as being the most

873
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 2: satisfactory as to what happened between him and VICKI is

874
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: that when he described to the parole board again as

875
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 2: I was angry, and that feels as honest as he

876
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: was capable of being about what happened in the car

877
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: on the night of March fourth, nineteen fifty seven. So

878
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 2: I didn't really want to ask him about that again

879
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 2: because I thought I would not get I wouldn't really

880
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: get much in the way of good answers, and he

881
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 2: seemed enough like, if not an outright psychopath, then certainly

882
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 2: someone with those tendencies that he would just tell.

883
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: Me whatever he wanted and it would be kind of useless.

884
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 2: So I initiated the correspondence by saying that I was

885
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,280
Speaker 2: working on something on William F. Buckley, which was true,

886
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,720
Speaker 2: and that I wanted to ask about his friendship with Buckley,

887
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 2: which I legitimately did, and he writes this effusive letter

888
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,439
Speaker 2: back to me. At the time, I was still living

889
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 2: in Brooklyn and said, you're the first person who's ever

890
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 2: written me from Brooklyn and I managed to be there

891
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 2: when I was on the run. And then it's like

892
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 2: I had mentioned something about his health being bad. He's like,

893
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 2: how did you know that? And then in my next letter,

894
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 2: I quote some more from what he said in a

895
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: parle board hearing explain that a lot of people in

896
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 2: this orbit had since died and I just wanted to

897
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: know what was up.

898
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 1: And then I get a more contrite letter.

899
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: Back, So thinking, okay, but I just get the sense

900
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 2: of I don't want to prolong this correspondence too long.

901
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 2: I didn't think the likelihood of visiting him in person

902
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 2: was good. I didn't know how I would feel about

903
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 2: visiting him in person. I was working on other projects

904
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: at the time, and I was learning about this litigious

905
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 2: side to him, and that felt kind of threatening. Frankly, Yeah,

906
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 2: And then I finally just decide I'm going to just

907
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 2: ask a bunch of questions that I know have not

908
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 2: been asked and that are committed to paper, and send

909
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 2: it off and see what happens, assuming nothing. He writes

910
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 2: me back, He's like, I think you're writing a book

911
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 2: about me, and I don't like that, and I'm not

912
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 2: going to crop right, and then proceeded to answer every question.

913
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: Because he couldn't help it. He couldn't help himself. I know. Yeah,

914
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: because that's what people with psychopathy do. Okay, it's truly

915
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: a compulsion. Yeah, it is. And so he did and

916
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: because he wanted his way. So did you learn anything

917
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: new from him that you think shed's light on this situation. No,

918
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: I didn't really learn anything much at all. Well, good lord,

919
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: I hope he used a po box or something I did.

920
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, But let's just say that when I learned

921
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 2: that Edgar had died, I had a lot of mixed emotions,

922
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:04,959
Speaker 2: especially because I knew there were sources that I needed

923
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: to reach out to to let them know because they

924
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 2: didn't know. But I also knew that his being dead

925
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 2: meant that I had more freedom to write the story

926
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 2: that needed to be written.

927
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, Nate Eaton on

928
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 1: Lorie Valo Dabell and her very twisted world.

929
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 3: Do you start telling someone with a personality that they're

930
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,479
Speaker 3: a Goddess, that they were married in a previous life,

931
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 3: which is what he was doing, that they helped create worlds,

932
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 3: and that they would usher in the second Coming of Jesus.

933
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 3: Christ and her friends describe it as a It's like

934
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 3: a match and gasoline.

935
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available for

936
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 1: pre order now, including the audiobook. All that Is Wicked

937
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: is based on our first season of tenfold More Wicked.

938
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of Killer

939
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff's crimes, but there's so much more. My book

940
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Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly

941
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: right tenfold War Media production. The producer is Alexismirosi. Our

942
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: mixer is Ryo Baum. Our sound designer is Andrew Epen.

943
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 1: Curtis heath Is. Our composer Nick Toga did the artwork.

944
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: Ilsabrink designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark,

945
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram

946
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Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at

947
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Speaker 1: tenfold More And If you know of a historical crime

948
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Speaker 1: that could use some attention, especially if it happened in

949
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Speaker 1: your family. Email us at info at tenfoldwoar wicked dot com.

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Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for

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Speaker 1: Wicked Words