WEBVTT - Former Amazon VP on "Working Backwards"

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>Quick Takes Tim Stinovic from Bloomberg Radio. So Colin Brier

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<v Speaker 1>started working at Amazon just four years after it was founded.

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<v Speaker 1>Back In spent twelve years at the company, part of

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<v Speaker 1>the senior leadership team there, and this as the company

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<v Speaker 1>grew from a domestic seller of books to a global

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<v Speaker 1>multidimensional powerhouse. And for two of his years at Amazon,

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<v Speaker 1>Colin was chief of staff to Jeff Bezos, essentially Jeff's shadow,

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<v Speaker 1>during which he spent each day attending meetings, traveling with

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<v Speaker 1>and talking about business life so much with Jeff Bezos.

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<v Speaker 1>He is co founder of Working Backwards. It's a company

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<v Speaker 1>where he coaches executives. Collin's new book he co authored

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<v Speaker 1>it with Bill carr Off, also a longtime Amazonian. This

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<v Speaker 1>book just out today. It's called Working Backwards. Inside Stories

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<v Speaker 1>and Secrets from Inside Amazon. Colin joining us on the

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<v Speaker 1>phone from Seattle. Welcome to Bloomberg. So nice to have

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<v Speaker 1>you here, In. Congratulations on the book. Oh, thank you

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<v Speaker 1>so much, and thanks for having me on the show. Turtle.

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<v Speaker 1>It's so timely. There isn't a day, Colin, it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>go by that. We don't really talk about Amazon, to

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<v Speaker 1>be quite honest, and we've talked about it a lot,

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<v Speaker 1>especially with the news that Jeff was was stepping down

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<v Speaker 1>a CEO. Um, let me start there. How did you

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<v Speaker 1>take that note? How did how did you see it?

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<v Speaker 1>How should we see it? Well, you know, I was

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<v Speaker 1>a little surprised at the timing, but you had to

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<v Speaker 1>come sometime and how I viewed it. As you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff has been really preparing for this type of transition

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<v Speaker 1>for a long time, even uh since the early days

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<v Speaker 1>of Amazon. He put a whole bunch of effort focused

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<v Speaker 1>on how can I put in processes inside Amazon so

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<v Speaker 1>other as Amazon grows in scales ten x d x,

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<v Speaker 1>that they can still make the same type of high

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<v Speaker 1>quality decisions quickly when Jeff isn't in the room, and uh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, so he's he's what he's coined. That term

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<v Speaker 1>is called the invention machine. You know how Amazon hires,

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<v Speaker 1>how they organized peep teams, how they write narratives instead

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<v Speaker 1>of power point, and how they develop new products and

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<v Speaker 1>measure businesses. And he has been working and honing that

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<v Speaker 1>and been a broken record on that invention machine internally

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<v Speaker 1>at Amazon for for so long that I think that

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<v Speaker 1>this transition with Andy Jossy taking over the Helmets CEO,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, we're not going to see a ton of change,

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<v Speaker 1>and certainly in the near term. And I know a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of this is in the book and I want

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<v Speaker 1>to get to it in a moment. Do you know Andy, though,

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm just curious if he was there when you

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<v Speaker 1>were there? I do, And he started a few months

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<v Speaker 1>before I did. He started in seven and I worked

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<v Speaker 1>with Andy right actually right when I started in I

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<v Speaker 1>started in the software team. He was in the marketing

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<v Speaker 1>group and worked together on a couple of different projects.

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<v Speaker 1>And then Andy was also Jeff's first technical advisor or shadow.

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<v Speaker 1>He did that for about eighteen months, and so I

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<v Speaker 1>was just second once. So I rely on Andy a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>Is when I moved into this new role working with

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<v Speaker 1>with Jeff to get some good advice on how to

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<v Speaker 1>be successful in that role. Well, Colin, how important do

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<v Speaker 1>you think is it to kind of understand what makes

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff tick? You know, this is a remarkable company on

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<v Speaker 1>so many measures, um, whether you like it or not,

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<v Speaker 1>it's just hard to be ignored. And I just wonder

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<v Speaker 1>how important is it that anybody who is in that

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<v Speaker 1>CEO spot understand kind of the way Jeff approaches things,

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<v Speaker 1>and especially for you know, you've spent a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>time with him. Yeah, I think it is very important

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<v Speaker 1>and it's uh, you know, not just how Jeff thinks.

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<v Speaker 1>He inculcated that throughout Amazon, and so he really fostered

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<v Speaker 1>a culture that was customer obsessed, not competitor obsessed, a

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<v Speaker 1>long term thinking, you know, things beyond the next month

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<v Speaker 1>or quarter, quarterly results. You know, spirit of invention, and

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<v Speaker 1>you also have to figure out with invention, you have

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<v Speaker 1>to expect and you know how to handle failures inside

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<v Speaker 1>the company. And then just being taking pride in the

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<v Speaker 1>operational excellence. And what that means is that the details matter.

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<v Speaker 1>And a lot of the detailed little details that you

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<v Speaker 1>work on are you know, most people aren't going to

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<v Speaker 1>see them, but they're incredibly important to making you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a company take and meeting customer promises. So andy, Um,

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<v Speaker 1>you know he understands that as well as anyone at Amazon,

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<v Speaker 1>and uh, and so incredibly important. If I write the

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<v Speaker 1>CEO job description, it would be you know, understanding how

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<v Speaker 1>Amazon works, being able to work in large teams and

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<v Speaker 1>small teams, and by the way, bonus points, if you

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<v Speaker 1>had built a new business from scratch from zero to

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<v Speaker 1>ten billion dollars faster than Amazon did, and Andy did

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<v Speaker 1>all three of those. By the way, Amazon Web Services

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<v Speaker 1>got from zero to ten billion dollars faster than Amazon

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<v Speaker 1>dot Com the retailer. Yeah, it's pretty remarkable if you

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<v Speaker 1>think about in terms of the growth. Um, we've got

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<v Speaker 1>about forty seconds and we take a break and come back.

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<v Speaker 1>If you had to say one reason that you think

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<v Speaker 1>this company has been so successful, what would it be?

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<v Speaker 1>Is it? Is it really just understanding that culture. I

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<v Speaker 1>think it is what makes it take. So it's the

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<v Speaker 1>leadership for inspose, it's the customer obsession. And when you

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<v Speaker 1>do that, customers are always a little bit restless. They're

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<v Speaker 1>going to push you to do more and innovate you.

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<v Speaker 1>If you offer two days show and they're going to

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<v Speaker 1>want one day shipping pretty soon. So you know, Amazon

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<v Speaker 1>always operates and develop innovates new ideas because they listen

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<v Speaker 1>to customers. You know, I do wonder too about the title,

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<v Speaker 1>and I know you've got um your own company called

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<v Speaker 1>Working Backwards, your co founder of it, and you work

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<v Speaker 1>with a lot of executives and and coaching them and

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<v Speaker 1>this whole idea of kind of working backwards um things.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a backtimer because of my years in broadcast. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>causing back timing things in my life. But talk to

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<v Speaker 1>us about working backwards and what it teaches us. The

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<v Speaker 1>it scored the working backwards process. First of all, it's

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<v Speaker 1>what the process Amazon uses to take ideas and evaluate

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<v Speaker 1>them and see if they're worth building and bringing to market.

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<v Speaker 1>And then it's heart Working backwards really just starts from

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<v Speaker 1>the customer experience and then working backwards from that and um,

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<v Speaker 1>what what's different about how that process is from other companies.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of companies use what's called the skills forward approach.

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<v Speaker 1>What are we good at um? And how can we

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<v Speaker 1>move into the market. There's you know, you can think

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<v Speaker 1>of a swat analysis your strengths, weaknesses, and opportunities and threats.

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<v Speaker 1>But what's not really mentioned with those two techniques is

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<v Speaker 1>the word customer. So Amazon really just inverted it and

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<v Speaker 1>said we are going to start from the first day

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<v Speaker 1>we're looking at an idea and keep the customer in

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<v Speaker 1>mind and then figure out how do we organize around

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<v Speaker 1>that idea in order to deliver value for the for

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<v Speaker 1>the customer, and that the two the props. They're the

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<v Speaker 1>tools that the working backwards process uses. It's a press

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<v Speaker 1>release and a frequently ask question. And the press release

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<v Speaker 1>it's just a one page press release. It's the first

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<v Speaker 1>thing you write if you have an idea. If someone says, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>I got this cool idea. UM, they'll say, great, go

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<v Speaker 1>right a working backwards document And the first part of

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<v Speaker 1>that is the press release. And it's harder than you

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<v Speaker 1>may think, especially when you're starting out. You have to

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<v Speaker 1>clearly describe what the customer problem is, what the what

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<v Speaker 1>the solution is, and why it's a great product. And

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<v Speaker 1>if after reading that mythical press release you're not excited

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<v Speaker 1>to buy that product or use that service, you go

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<v Speaker 1>back and start over and write it. So this is

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<v Speaker 1>an iterative process and the second part to frequently ask questions.

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<v Speaker 1>It allows you to address the tough issues up front

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<v Speaker 1>and try to solve those as early as possible because

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<v Speaker 1>it's cheaper when you solve those problems earlier. And the

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<v Speaker 1>fact contains two components. One is explaining to the customer

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<v Speaker 1>what is it, why should I use it? Why should

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<v Speaker 1>I change my behavior to buy this product or why

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<v Speaker 1>is it better than what's out there on the market.

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<v Speaker 1>But then the second part is the internal f a Q,

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<v Speaker 1>which are the tough issues that the company is going

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<v Speaker 1>to have to solve in order to solve these customer problems.

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<v Speaker 1>It may need a new sales force, you know, direct

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<v Speaker 1>salesforce or you partner a salesforce, or how can I

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<v Speaker 1>build the product for bill of materials under two hundred dollars?

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<v Speaker 1>What are the tough technical challenges that we have to

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<v Speaker 1>solve in order to really solve this customer problem? And

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<v Speaker 1>again that's an inerative process. You don't move forward until

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<v Speaker 1>you get those questions answered. That's really that's really fascinating

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<v Speaker 1>in terms of how you think about things and approach it.

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<v Speaker 1>So I love the title of your book, Working Backwards Insights,

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<v Speaker 1>Stories and Secrets from Amazon. So if you'll indulge me

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit, um and I think you've you've kind

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<v Speaker 1>of answered some of these, but I'm going to go

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<v Speaker 1>there anyway, So give me one insight from Amazon. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>one insight is uh that really that these these principles

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<v Speaker 1>are they're easy to understand, they're hard to follow, especially

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<v Speaker 1>when things are going really well or really poorly in

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<v Speaker 1>your business. And where where Amazon has created some of

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<v Speaker 1>its most amazing inventions are where things are always going

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<v Speaker 1>to be unclear and you have to move fast, but

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<v Speaker 1>you rely on the leadership principles you know, primarily of

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<v Speaker 1>customer obsession, long term thinking, and yet you're willing to

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<v Speaker 1>be misunderstood and you figure out how can I invent

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<v Speaker 1>my way out of this box? And then you know,

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<v Speaker 1>working on the little details that matter so that you

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<v Speaker 1>know that is one. And then the other thing is

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<v Speaker 1>that a lot of people think what Amazon does it

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't apply to small organizations. These processes and principles. They

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<v Speaker 1>work in small groups because that's where they were created

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<v Speaker 1>for small teams, and they work across a number of

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<v Speaker 1>different industries. They've worked for streaming video, you know, moving

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<v Speaker 1>digital bits to customers with Amazon Studios, creating devices like

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<v Speaker 1>echo um you know in election devices, work with the

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<v Speaker 1>e commerce business and B two B so they're tested

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<v Speaker 1>and true across a number of different industries. And then

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<v Speaker 1>also size of company. So I have to ask you

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<v Speaker 1>as we tease you know or introduced to you earlier,

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<v Speaker 1>that you spent each day you were in meetings, you

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<v Speaker 1>traveled with you talked about a lot of different things,

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<v Speaker 1>business life, other things with Jeff Bezos of Amazon. What's

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<v Speaker 1>a story that you can share with our audience. One

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<v Speaker 1>story is that so we were every two years we

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<v Speaker 1>had to go work in customer service at you in

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<v Speaker 1>the corporate department, and and Jeff's turn came up. And

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<v Speaker 1>this is why I was working with Jeff and as

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<v Speaker 1>this technical advisor. So Jeff and I we drove an

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<v Speaker 1>hour south to Tacoma from Seattle where there is a

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<v Speaker 1>customer service center and for two days we were a

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<v Speaker 1>customer service agents and where at first they were training

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<v Speaker 1>you had to read and read emailed some customers and

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<v Speaker 1>respond to them. Eventually you would get to answer customer calls.

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<v Speaker 1>And there was one call in particular where the customer

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<v Speaker 1>called and said I have this problem and I've ordered

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<v Speaker 1>some lawn furniture and came damaged. And while they were

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<v Speaker 1>looking the information up, the customer service agent put the

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<v Speaker 1>customer on hold and turned to Jeff and said, I

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<v Speaker 1>bet you it's this product and pointed to it on

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<v Speaker 1>our website and your Thirty seconds later, the customer said, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>here's my product number, and it was the one that

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<v Speaker 1>she pointed out and Jeff's eyes went wide and said,

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<v Speaker 1>how did you know this? After the call and said, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>it's happened quite frequently. And this is where Jeffie's he

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<v Speaker 1>also studied other companies, He studied toilets and on cord

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<v Speaker 1>and said, we need to give this customer service agents

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<v Speaker 1>the ability to solve that problem right at that point

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<v Speaker 1>in time. So you know, this is where it's unusual

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<v Speaker 1>for CEO to go be a customer service agent for

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<v Speaker 1>two days and then you know, come up. This is

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<v Speaker 1>how customer obsession allows you to come up with internal processes.

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<v Speaker 1>And UM, I don't know how many times you've been

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<v Speaker 1>on the phone with the customer service agent at another

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<v Speaker 1>company where they know what the problem is, they just

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<v Speaker 1>don't have the tools and the authority to solve it.

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<v Speaker 1>And so what we did at Amazon is we push

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<v Speaker 1>that decision making an authority down to the people closest

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<v Speaker 1>to the customer. And what happens with that end encurd

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<v Speaker 1>is it stops that product from being sold. When the

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<v Speaker 1>corporate person who is responsible for that lawn and garden

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<v Speaker 1>thing gets notified immediately says we will not sell this

0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.240
<v Speaker 1>product and ship with the customers. It's you know it's

0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:49.160
<v Speaker 1>it's not up to our standards. You need to go

0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.320
<v Speaker 1>fix it, all right, call be really quick about twenty

0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:53.760
<v Speaker 1>five seconds. Is there a secret like does Jeff Bezos

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<v Speaker 1>et tuna fish for lunch every day? Now? He sticks?

0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:01.640
<v Speaker 1>He just is a very principle person and he's also

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<v Speaker 1>a great teacher. Whenever he'll come up with insights, but

0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.760
<v Speaker 1>he'll he'll walk walk you back and tell you how

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<v Speaker 1>we got to those insights, which is one of the

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<v Speaker 1>reasons why I think Amazon is good hands moving forward. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>this was so much fun, and congratulations on the book

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<v Speaker 1>and really just an interesting way of looking at things. Colin,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you again. Colin Brier, former VP at Amazon early

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<v Speaker 1>on a senior part of the leadership there at the company.

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<v Speaker 1>His book is Working Backwards Inside Stories and Secrets from

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<v Speaker 1>Inside Amazon.