Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Quick Takes Tim Stinovic from Bloomberg Radio. So Colin Brier
Speaker 1: started working at Amazon just four years after it was founded.
Speaker 1: Back In spent twelve years at the company, part of
Speaker 1: the senior leadership team there, and this as the company
Speaker 1: grew from a domestic seller of books to a global
Speaker 1: multidimensional powerhouse. And for two of his years at Amazon,
Speaker 1: Colin was chief of staff to Jeff Bezos, essentially Jeff's shadow,
Speaker 1: during which he spent each day attending meetings, traveling with
Speaker 1: and talking about business life so much with Jeff Bezos.
Speaker 1: He is co founder of Working Backwards. It's a company
Speaker 1: where he coaches executives. Collin's new book he co authored
Speaker 1: it with Bill carr Off, also a longtime Amazonian. This
Speaker 1: book just out today. It's called Working Backwards. Inside Stories
Speaker 1: and Secrets from Inside Amazon. Colin joining us on the
Speaker 1: phone from Seattle. Welcome to Bloomberg. So nice to have
Speaker 1: you here, In. Congratulations on the book. Oh, thank you
Speaker 1: so much, and thanks for having me on the show. Turtle.
Speaker 1: It's so timely. There isn't a day, Colin, it doesn't
Speaker 1: go by that. We don't really talk about Amazon, to
Speaker 1: be quite honest, and we've talked about it a lot,
Speaker 1: especially with the news that Jeff was was stepping down
Speaker 1: a CEO. Um, let me start there. How did you
Speaker 1: take that note? How did how did you see it?
Speaker 1: How should we see it? Well, you know, I was
Speaker 1: a little surprised at the timing, but you had to
Speaker 1: come sometime and how I viewed it. As you know,
Speaker 1: Jeff has been really preparing for this type of transition
Speaker 1: for a long time, even uh since the early days
Speaker 1: of Amazon. He put a whole bunch of effort focused
Speaker 1: on how can I put in processes inside Amazon so
Speaker 1: other as Amazon grows in scales ten x d x,
Speaker 1: that they can still make the same type of high
Speaker 1: quality decisions quickly when Jeff isn't in the room, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, so he's he's what he's coined. That term
Speaker 1: is called the invention machine. You know how Amazon hires,
Speaker 1: how they organized peep teams, how they write narratives instead
Speaker 1: of power point, and how they develop new products and
Speaker 1: measure businesses. And he has been working and honing that
Speaker 1: and been a broken record on that invention machine internally
Speaker 1: at Amazon for for so long that I think that
Speaker 1: this transition with Andy Jossy taking over the Helmets CEO,
Speaker 1: you know, we're not going to see a ton of change,
Speaker 1: and certainly in the near term. And I know a
Speaker 1: lot of this is in the book and I want
Speaker 1: to get to it in a moment. Do you know Andy, though,
Speaker 1: And I'm just curious if he was there when you
Speaker 1: were there? I do, And he started a few months
Speaker 1: before I did. He started in seven and I worked
Speaker 1: with Andy right actually right when I started in I
Speaker 1: started in the software team. He was in the marketing
Speaker 1: group and worked together on a couple of different projects.
Speaker 1: And then Andy was also Jeff's first technical advisor or shadow.
Speaker 1: He did that for about eighteen months, and so I
Speaker 1: was just second once. So I rely on Andy a lot.
Speaker 1: Is when I moved into this new role working with
Speaker 1: with Jeff to get some good advice on how to
Speaker 1: be successful in that role. Well, Colin, how important do
Speaker 1: you think is it to kind of understand what makes
Speaker 1: Jeff tick? You know, this is a remarkable company on
Speaker 1: so many measures, um, whether you like it or not,
Speaker 1: it's just hard to be ignored. And I just wonder
Speaker 1: how important is it that anybody who is in that
Speaker 1: CEO spot understand kind of the way Jeff approaches things,
Speaker 1: and especially for you know, you've spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time with him. Yeah, I think it is very important
Speaker 1: and it's uh, you know, not just how Jeff thinks.
Speaker 1: He inculcated that throughout Amazon, and so he really fostered
Speaker 1: a culture that was customer obsessed, not competitor obsessed, a
Speaker 1: long term thinking, you know, things beyond the next month
Speaker 1: or quarter, quarterly results. You know, spirit of invention, and
Speaker 1: you also have to figure out with invention, you have
Speaker 1: to expect and you know how to handle failures inside
Speaker 1: the company. And then just being taking pride in the
Speaker 1: operational excellence. And what that means is that the details matter.
Speaker 1: And a lot of the detailed little details that you
Speaker 1: work on are you know, most people aren't going to
Speaker 1: see them, but they're incredibly important to making you know,
Speaker 1: a company take and meeting customer promises. So andy, Um,
Speaker 1: you know he understands that as well as anyone at Amazon,
Speaker 1: and uh, and so incredibly important. If I write the
Speaker 1: CEO job description, it would be you know, understanding how
Speaker 1: Amazon works, being able to work in large teams and
Speaker 1: small teams, and by the way, bonus points, if you
Speaker 1: had built a new business from scratch from zero to
Speaker 1: ten billion dollars faster than Amazon did, and Andy did
Speaker 1: all three of those. By the way, Amazon Web Services
Speaker 1: got from zero to ten billion dollars faster than Amazon
Speaker 1: dot Com the retailer. Yeah, it's pretty remarkable if you
Speaker 1: think about in terms of the growth. Um, we've got
Speaker 1: about forty seconds and we take a break and come back.
Speaker 1: If you had to say one reason that you think
Speaker 1: this company has been so successful, what would it be?
Speaker 1: Is it? Is it really just understanding that culture. I
Speaker 1: think it is what makes it take. So it's the
Speaker 1: leadership for inspose, it's the customer obsession. And when you
Speaker 1: do that, customers are always a little bit restless. They're
Speaker 1: going to push you to do more and innovate you.
Speaker 1: If you offer two days show and they're going to
Speaker 1: want one day shipping pretty soon. So you know, Amazon
Speaker 1: always operates and develop innovates new ideas because they listen
Speaker 1: to customers. You know, I do wonder too about the title,
Speaker 1: and I know you've got um your own company called
Speaker 1: Working Backwards, your co founder of it, and you work
Speaker 1: with a lot of executives and and coaching them and
Speaker 1: this whole idea of kind of working backwards um things.
Speaker 1: I'm a backtimer because of my years in broadcast. I'm
Speaker 1: causing back timing things in my life. But talk to
Speaker 1: us about working backwards and what it teaches us. The
Speaker 1: it scored the working backwards process. First of all, it's
Speaker 1: what the process Amazon uses to take ideas and evaluate
Speaker 1: them and see if they're worth building and bringing to market.
Speaker 1: And then it's heart Working backwards really just starts from
Speaker 1: the customer experience and then working backwards from that and um,
Speaker 1: what what's different about how that process is from other companies.
Speaker 1: A lot of companies use what's called the skills forward approach.
Speaker 1: What are we good at um? And how can we
Speaker 1: move into the market. There's you know, you can think
Speaker 1: of a swat analysis your strengths, weaknesses, and opportunities and threats.
Speaker 1: But what's not really mentioned with those two techniques is
Speaker 1: the word customer. So Amazon really just inverted it and
Speaker 1: said we are going to start from the first day
Speaker 1: we're looking at an idea and keep the customer in
Speaker 1: mind and then figure out how do we organize around
Speaker 1: that idea in order to deliver value for the for
Speaker 1: the customer, and that the two the props. They're the
Speaker 1: tools that the working backwards process uses. It's a press
Speaker 1: release and a frequently ask question. And the press release
Speaker 1: it's just a one page press release. It's the first
Speaker 1: thing you write if you have an idea. If someone says, hey,
Speaker 1: I got this cool idea. UM, they'll say, great, go
Speaker 1: right a working backwards document And the first part of
Speaker 1: that is the press release. And it's harder than you
Speaker 1: may think, especially when you're starting out. You have to
Speaker 1: clearly describe what the customer problem is, what the what
Speaker 1: the solution is, and why it's a great product. And
Speaker 1: if after reading that mythical press release you're not excited
Speaker 1: to buy that product or use that service, you go
Speaker 1: back and start over and write it. So this is
Speaker 1: an iterative process and the second part to frequently ask questions.
Speaker 1: It allows you to address the tough issues up front
Speaker 1: and try to solve those as early as possible because
Speaker 1: it's cheaper when you solve those problems earlier. And the
Speaker 1: fact contains two components. One is explaining to the customer
Speaker 1: what is it, why should I use it? Why should
Speaker 1: I change my behavior to buy this product or why
Speaker 1: is it better than what's out there on the market.
Speaker 1: But then the second part is the internal f a Q,
Speaker 1: which are the tough issues that the company is going
Speaker 1: to have to solve in order to solve these customer problems.
Speaker 1: It may need a new sales force, you know, direct
Speaker 1: salesforce or you partner a salesforce, or how can I
Speaker 1: build the product for bill of materials under two hundred dollars?
Speaker 1: What are the tough technical challenges that we have to
Speaker 1: solve in order to really solve this customer problem? And
Speaker 1: again that's an inerative process. You don't move forward until
Speaker 1: you get those questions answered. That's really that's really fascinating
Speaker 1: in terms of how you think about things and approach it.
Speaker 1: So I love the title of your book, Working Backwards Insights,
Speaker 1: Stories and Secrets from Amazon. So if you'll indulge me
Speaker 1: a little bit, um and I think you've you've kind
Speaker 1: of answered some of these, but I'm going to go
Speaker 1: there anyway, So give me one insight from Amazon. Well,
Speaker 1: one insight is uh that really that these these principles
Speaker 1: are they're easy to understand, they're hard to follow, especially
Speaker 1: when things are going really well or really poorly in
Speaker 1: your business. And where where Amazon has created some of
Speaker 1: its most amazing inventions are where things are always going
Speaker 1: to be unclear and you have to move fast, but
Speaker 1: you rely on the leadership principles you know, primarily of
Speaker 1: customer obsession, long term thinking, and yet you're willing to
Speaker 1: be misunderstood and you figure out how can I invent
Speaker 1: my way out of this box? And then you know,
Speaker 1: working on the little details that matter so that you
Speaker 1: know that is one. And then the other thing is
Speaker 1: that a lot of people think what Amazon does it
Speaker 1: doesn't apply to small organizations. These processes and principles. They
Speaker 1: work in small groups because that's where they were created
Speaker 1: for small teams, and they work across a number of
Speaker 1: different industries. They've worked for streaming video, you know, moving
Speaker 1: digital bits to customers with Amazon Studios, creating devices like
Speaker 1: echo um you know in election devices, work with the
Speaker 1: e commerce business and B two B so they're tested
Speaker 1: and true across a number of different industries. And then
Speaker 1: also size of company. So I have to ask you
Speaker 1: as we tease you know or introduced to you earlier,
Speaker 1: that you spent each day you were in meetings, you
Speaker 1: traveled with you talked about a lot of different things,
Speaker 1: business life, other things with Jeff Bezos of Amazon. What's
Speaker 1: a story that you can share with our audience. One
Speaker 1: story is that so we were every two years we
Speaker 1: had to go work in customer service at you in
Speaker 1: the corporate department, and and Jeff's turn came up. And
Speaker 1: this is why I was working with Jeff and as
Speaker 1: this technical advisor. So Jeff and I we drove an
Speaker 1: hour south to Tacoma from Seattle where there is a
Speaker 1: customer service center and for two days we were a
Speaker 1: customer service agents and where at first they were training
Speaker 1: you had to read and read emailed some customers and
Speaker 1: respond to them. Eventually you would get to answer customer calls.
Speaker 1: And there was one call in particular where the customer
Speaker 1: called and said I have this problem and I've ordered
Speaker 1: some lawn furniture and came damaged. And while they were
Speaker 1: looking the information up, the customer service agent put the
Speaker 1: customer on hold and turned to Jeff and said, I
Speaker 1: bet you it's this product and pointed to it on
Speaker 1: our website and your Thirty seconds later, the customer said, oh,
Speaker 1: here's my product number, and it was the one that
Speaker 1: she pointed out and Jeff's eyes went wide and said,
Speaker 1: how did you know this? After the call and said, oh,
Speaker 1: it's happened quite frequently. And this is where Jeffie's he
Speaker 1: also studied other companies, He studied toilets and on cord
Speaker 1: and said, we need to give this customer service agents
Speaker 1: the ability to solve that problem right at that point
Speaker 1: in time. So you know, this is where it's unusual
Speaker 1: for CEO to go be a customer service agent for
Speaker 1: two days and then you know, come up. This is
Speaker 1: how customer obsession allows you to come up with internal processes.
Speaker 1: And UM, I don't know how many times you've been
Speaker 1: on the phone with the customer service agent at another
Speaker 1: company where they know what the problem is, they just
Speaker 1: don't have the tools and the authority to solve it.
Speaker 1: And so what we did at Amazon is we push
Speaker 1: that decision making an authority down to the people closest
Speaker 1: to the customer. And what happens with that end encurd
Speaker 1: is it stops that product from being sold. When the
Speaker 1: corporate person who is responsible for that lawn and garden
Speaker 1: thing gets notified immediately says we will not sell this
Speaker 1: product and ship with the customers. It's you know it's
Speaker 1: it's not up to our standards. You need to go
Speaker 1: fix it, all right, call be really quick about twenty
Speaker 1: five seconds. Is there a secret like does Jeff Bezos
Speaker 1: et tuna fish for lunch every day? Now? He sticks?
Speaker 1: He just is a very principle person and he's also
Speaker 1: a great teacher. Whenever he'll come up with insights, but
Speaker 1: he'll he'll walk walk you back and tell you how
Speaker 1: we got to those insights, which is one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why I think Amazon is good hands moving forward. Well,
Speaker 1: this was so much fun, and congratulations on the book
Speaker 1: and really just an interesting way of looking at things. Colin,
Speaker 1: thank you again. Colin Brier, former VP at Amazon early
Speaker 1: on a senior part of the leadership there at the company.
Speaker 1: His book is Working Backwards Inside Stories and Secrets from
Speaker 1: Inside Amazon.