WEBVTT - Justice Begins with Imagination (Ruha Benjamin) 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:04.160 We can talk about the hardware and software all day, 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:09.239 but social technologies like trust, like mutuality, we have to 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:13.560 invest as much intellectual and emotional energy into honing those, 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:17.319 building those practicing those. It doesn't come natural, and so 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.680 part of what we're doing is trying to prototype new 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:24.880 relationships amongst ourselves. Like well, our tagline within the lab 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:27.400 is be careful with each other so we can be 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:34.520 dangerous together. Welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day, 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.000 a podcast that reimagine citizen as a verb, not a 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:42.440 legal status. This season is all about how we practice democracy, 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:44.839 what can we get rid of, what can we invent, 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:47.640 and how do we change the culture of democracy itself. 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:50.800 We're leaving the theoretical clouds and hitting the ground with 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:54.800 inspiring examples of people and institutions that are showing us 0:00:54.920 --> 0:01:04.240 new ways to govern ourselves. I first came across the 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:08.880 name Ruha Benjamin, such a great sounding name, during the 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:12.200 peak of my rebellion against technology and my realization that 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:16.960 it was causing a lot of harm. It was the 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:20.040 fall of twenty eighteen. I was living in New York 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.479 City and working out of a place called the Data 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.000 in Society Research Institute. Which is about what it sounds like. 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:29.840 They're focused on the impact of data centric technologies on 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:35.360 society and how they affect people, especially those in marginalized communities. 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:38.280 Ruha was coming through to talk about her new book, 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.880 Race After Technology, a book that was saying out loud 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:44.199 and imprint a lot of the things that I'd also 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:48.560 been feeling and thinking and saying. In particular, she coined 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:53.040 this phrase the new gym code. I mean, come on now, 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:56.160 I'm a sucker for wordplay. That's amazing, And this is 0:01:56.240 --> 0:02:00.520 basically her definition of the new gym code. Using technology 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:05.680 to reflect or even reproduce existing inequalities, while concealing that 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.880 by promoting the tech with the language of progress and 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:13.400 objectivity that masks the fact that it's built on the 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:17.160 discrimination from a previous era. I cheered when I saw 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:19.720 that because it echoed my own statements around the time 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:22.480 that we might find the civil rights battles of the 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:26.000 future harder to win because they'd be encoded in this 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:30.680 technocentric language of progress and fairness and equality. But the 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:35.000 systems will actually make us more oppressed by literally codifying 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:39.600 discrimination in the data in tech that's based on our 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:43.800 unjust past. We'd write history into our futures, and not 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:51.560 in a good way. So Ruha was saying all that 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:54.840 and so much more. When I saw her three years 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.760 later at south By Southwest in twenty twenty two, she 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.200 was moderating a panel on a virtual and augmented reality 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:06.359 experience that beautifully honored the life of Brianna Taylor. Sadly, 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:10.280 we know about Brianna because the Louisville Metro Police shot 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:12.960 and killed her in the summer of twenty twenty. In 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:16.360 this case, technology was being used to help a family 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.840 and a community remember Brianna's life, not just her death, 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:24.280 and ultimately help them heal. Ruha was helping show a 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:28.079 different and more positive experience of technology and its impact. 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:32.160 Along with bringing community connection and facilitation to the front 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:35.600 of her fight for justice. Ruha is echoing that same 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:38.840 joy and warmth that Adrian Marie Brown brought us at 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:41.600 the start of this season, and her work connects to 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:43.800 the way we think about citizen as a verb. Here 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:47.480 at the show, our four pillars show up and participate, 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:52.320 invest in relationships, understand power, and value the collective are 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:56.840 things she practices, not just preaches, Especially on relationships and power. 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.720 She does much of that practice as founding director of 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:03.200 the Data Lab at Princeton, where she also teaches. The 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.640 lab is focused on rethinking and retooling the relationship between 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:12.120 stories and statistics, power and technology, data and justice. They 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.880 invite community based organizations to partner with them on building 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:19.479 technologies that meet their needs, from mapping the work of 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:23.279 companies engaged in immigrants surveillance and developing tools for formerly 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:27.200 incarcerated small business owners, to creating playbooks about black maternal 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:31.039 mental health and resources for tenants facing eviction. And that's 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:36.200 just naming a few. I consider Uja to be a 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.280 kindred spirit and it's so cool to finally have her 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:41.960 on the show. Now. We got together in front of 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.360 a live i RL audience in New York in September 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:48.039 twenty twenty two. It was part of a conference and 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:51.679 festival called Unfinished. I've been hosting that event for three 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:54.240 years straight because it's so well aligned with what we 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:58.040 do here at How to Citizen. This gathering is predicated 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:02.040 on interpreting the project of a mer the possibilities of technology, 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:07.760 even democracy itself, as well as Unfinished, especially in this 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.599 moment where both democracy and technology feel like they're on 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:17.080 the precipice of something, something great or something terrible. While 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:19.719 it unfinished, Ruhat and I sat down for a special 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:22.920 live taping of Hot to Citizen, which you'll hear right after. 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:34.599 We pay for this podcast with an ad break. Yes, Yes, 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:41.360 smatterings of applause are encouraged, encouraged, Thank you. We're here 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.200 first context on the podcast, which I assume you all 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.960 listened to religiously. But there may be one person who's 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:50.919 never heard of podcasting and hasn't gotten around to the 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:53.760 billion that exists in the world. The premise of our 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:56.840 show is that we interpret the word citizen as a verb, 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:00.320 and we see it as an opportunity to include people 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:03.560 in the process, as opposed to this noun that divides 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.760 us from one another, separating people across imagine every line. 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:09.599 And so I'm sitting here with you, Ruha, because of 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:11.920 your book, and I was I here yelling in these 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:15.800 Internet streets about you know, the bias baked into the 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:20.000 system and they're making us new digital slaves and black box. 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:21.400 First of why I got to be a black box? 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:23.599 Why can't just be another obfuscated box? Why I gotta 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.560 be black? So I feel like you gotta reruha. You 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:30.000 gotta reruha. So I came across Raced after technology the 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:32.720 New You Gym Code, after having already read the New 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:35.680 Gym Chrome many years prior. And I would love to 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:41.600 know to start us off, how you're weaving of medicine 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:46.320 and technology and technological systems with ideas of power and 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:49.440 ultimately liberation, which we'll get to. Where does that come 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:53.080 from for you? Yes, so many origin stories. First of all, 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:56.640 Hi everyone, good to see you. I'm so thrilled to 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:00.159 be in conversation with Bartunde, whose work I read I 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.880 first started teaching as a young assistant professor BU and 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:06.400 it was the first and only book that had me 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:11.000 cackling on the airplane, like to the to everyone around. 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.040 It was mad because I was reading this and just 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:17.560 loved how incisive, how brilliant, how you use humor to 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:19.560 get us to open our hearts in our minds. So 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:22.360 thank you. So she's referring to how to Be Black, Yes, 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:26.680 which if you haven't bought your Races, that's just the 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:32.280 marketing sciences, not it's not accusing you back. So I 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:36.320 just I have been a huge fan of bartun Day's 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.640 work for a long time. Um, so so many origin stories, 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:41.360 you know, when someone asked you, how did you start? 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:45.240 And also I'll try to just distill perhaps two quick 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:49.000 personal experiences or times in my life that have led 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:51.840 me to this work. One is as a young in 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:56.160 growing up in Los Angeles. Imagine little seven or eight 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:59.320 year old Ruha in the back of her grandma's gold 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:05.400 Chrysler cruising down Crenshaw Boulevar exactly and how many times 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:11.040 have I heard that? So, you know, and just being 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:15.520 you know, just a wide eyed young kid, you know, 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:21.040 and passing by this one moment, passing by a group 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.840 of boys from my school lined up against the fence 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.240 very close to my house being patted down very aggressively 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:32.760 and shamefully, and just kind of catching their eye as 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:36.640 I'm in the back seat and seeing that very overt 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:40.000 form of policing that wasn't just meant to shame them 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.880 and control them, but it felt like a message to 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:47.200 all of us about where we belonged and what we were, 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:51.000 what we could expect, and that was reinforced and amplified 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:55.520 in many, many different ways, most notably just the everyday 0:08:55.600 --> 0:09:00.199 audible experience of police helicopters rumbling overhead in Los Angeles, 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:03.120 you know, as a resident, and just the literal wall 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:05.920 shaking in my grandma's house a periodic intervals. So I 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:10.959 think of us as being in police occupied neighborhoods, and so, 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:13.800 you know, as a young mother, then I remember times 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:16.280 putting my boys to sleep in that same house and 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:19.640 the lights of the helicopters shining in and waking them up, 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:24.760 and so this very physical presence of policing. Then realizing that, oh, 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:29.080 there are other less visible, less audible ways in which 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.640 surveillance technologies are being deployed that perhaps are even more 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:35.640 dangerous because I can't point to them, because I can't 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:37.800 see them. And so it sort of led me to 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.440 look behind the screen, look at things that are out 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:44.760 of sight but are nevertheless classifying people controlling our lives 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:48.640 and in very harmful ways. And so there's this experience 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:52.440 of just being someone who understands what it is like 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:56.440 to be watched and not seen that has led to 0:09:56.520 --> 0:10:00.680 this work. The other origin story comes from being a 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:04.240 young mother. I had my sons in my twenties and 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.720 living in Atlanta, Georgia at the time, and with my 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.079 first son, realizing what the experience was probably going to 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.680 be like with childbirth and the overly medicalized approach to 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:19.560 childbirth in this country, and understanding that there are different 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:24.360 schools of childbirth. There's the conventional obstetrics medicalized approach to 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:27.360 childbirth that we're familiar with and that I Binge watched 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:30.199 when I was pregnant with the birth story, and just 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.120 understanding what I could expect if I had my child 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:37.040 in a hospital, which is that the schedules of other 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:41.880 people would proceed mine that I could expect various technologies 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:44.240 that I may not necessarily need, that can be life 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:48.880 saving in some situations but have become normalized. And for 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:51.320 those who don't know, the experience of black women in 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:55.720 particular in our healthcare settings and childbirth in particular is 0:10:55.760 --> 0:11:01.400 astronomically worse than everyone else. But I learned about midwiff free, 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.439 a different approach where you can either have your child 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.160 in a hospital, a birth center at home with the 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:12.880 accompaniment of dulas and midwives birthworkers, and the experience is 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.320 much much different. Centers the woman or birth in person, 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:21.800 centers our autonomy, our dignity is based on respect and 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:25.720 mutuality and trust, and that's what I chose to do. 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:29.680 And that's when I became critical of both authoritative forms 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:33.720 of knowledge, whether whatever sciences or medicine that is, but 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:39.320 also that other forms of expertise that exist and that 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:43.680 are often sort of marginalized and discounted in the form 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:47.959 in this case of childbirthing knowledge, and also became critical 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.960 of the overabundance of technology in our lives that we 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.360 may not necessarily need. But that just gives you a 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:58.520 sense of my critical take on when things are being 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:03.640 sold to us as a straightforward good without thinking carefully 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.040 about how they're actually being experienced. Would you describe this 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:15.880 as your critical race theory? Yes, yes, I would, Yes, 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:21.839 I would leap that out. I want the people a Georgia. 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:26.520 But they hear this exactly. Midwifery is actually a good 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.840 and unexpected segue. I'd like to spend the bulk of 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.880 the remainder of our time in this word seeds and 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:39.280 in midwifing new ideas of design, justice, of freedom, of thriving, 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:43.200 of liberation. One effort that you've undertaken is to create 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:48.600 the Ida B. Wells Just Data Lab at Princeton. What 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.680 is that? Yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. Because 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.640 that means we get to talk about my students, yes, 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.480 which is where a lot of my optimism, hope, and 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:00.560 energy comes from is getting to hang out with eighteen 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.600 to twenty two year olds all day who are both 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.480 critical and creative in their approaches. And so Ida B. 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:14.880 Wells I named it after Ida B Wells because, and 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.520 now an explainer to today if you're not familiar. Ida B. 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.760 Wells was a civil rights leader, suffragette, and investigative journalist 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:25.640 who lived from eighteen sixty two to nineteen thirty one. 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:29.400 She's best known for her work documenting racial terror lynchings 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:31.959 in the United States, and her most famous work is 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:35.400 The Red Record, an historic effort to quantify lynchings in 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:43.319 the US after slavery. I named it after Ida B 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:48.120 Wells because for many reasons, but one very personal reason 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:52.600 is that her grandson was my dissertation advisor, doctor Troy Duster, 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:55.680 and so I've felt a kinship with her, her family 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:58.640 and that legacy because he's the one who brought me 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:02.640 into this field of theology of science, knowledge and medicine, 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:05.920 and so as a tribute to that legacy, and also 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:11.360 because she used both statistics and stories to shine a 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:15.520 light on what is ailing us and the forms of 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:19.240 violence and injustice. And it's that combination those different tools 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.280 that we need the data, but the data itself is 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:24.960 not going to save us, because people can tell all 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.840 kinds of stories about data to justify all kinds of things. 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:33.160 And so it's that marrying of the narrative with the 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:38.000 statistics that she modeled so brilliantly in the Red Record, 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.680 and that I wanted to use as a beacon for 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.920 my own students. So these are students who aren't necessarily 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:46.560 in my classes, some of them are. They come from 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:50.359 many different disciplines from the STEM side, humanity, social sciences, 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:56.080 but they share an underlying desire to engage in what 0:14:56.120 --> 0:15:00.320 we call tech justice, and so thinking about technol oology 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:04.480 not just as hardware software, but taking the stories as 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.560 seriously as we do the software. So we have artists 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.960 up in there. We have people who didn't necessarily take 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.560 a single computer science class, but who are bringing a 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:17.080 different skill set and approach. And one of the ways 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.960 that we've structured the lab is that we collaborate with 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:29.480 community based organizations insanity, humane and consensual. That is not 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:33.600 the technology that so many of us have been subjected 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.800 to in an autocratic kind of way, literally as subjects 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:40.760 to someone else's will, And say, you're describing really all 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:46.360 those words, this consensual, respectful relationship where it is a 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.080 feature not a bug, that someone who isn't a computer 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:54.000 programmer is involved in the programming because non programmers are 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.080 going to be living with these technologies. So what sorts 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:01.920 of critical and creative work have been prototyped and researched 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.160 in this last so as I was saying, we take 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:08.280 our marching orders from the organizations that we collaborate with. 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:12.480 Rather than study them or bring ideas to them, we 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.520 ask what would help you as an organizer? What would 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:19.760 help you as an organization do your work better? Silicon Valley, 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:24.800 are you listening? You have to prebake the solution, talk 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:28.000 to those who are most impacted. Whether we have a 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.720 team working on housing justice, we have a team working 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:34.760 on workers rights, we have a team working on maternal mortality. 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:37.680 And they collaborate with organizations all over the country, some 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:42.040 in Canada and elsewhere. But again, so getting the questions 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.520 from the source right, And so when we think about 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:50.840 design justice, we think about collaboration. Most corners of our world, 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.480 like if you go to NSF National Science Foundation and 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:55.360 get a grant, they'll tell you better have a community 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:59.600 organization involved. But oftentimes we're involving them much later in 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.480 the process, right, And sometimes it's window dressing. Sometimes it's 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:08.320 theatrical in terms of showing that you have this community support, 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.359 rather than starting at the very very beginning and find 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:16.920 out what questions should we be asking as researchers, as 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.200 a lab and get the questions and get the insights 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:24.040 from the start that let that be directed by our partners. 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.399 And so if you go to the Just Data Lab 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:29.960 dot org and go to the projects tab, you'll see 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:33.120 a wide range of projects that have come out of it, 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:38.359 whether it's dealing with police surveillance. Oftentimes we're casting the 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.480 light back on power, going back to how to citizen. 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.960 Rather than studying the most vulnerable who are trying to 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:49.879 navigate hostile systems, we say, who's creating this vulnerability, who's 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:54.280 creating this risk? Let's actually point our digital lens and 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:58.520 collect data and shine a light on upstream what's creating 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:02.119 these problems. So I'm going back to the pictures you 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.000 initially painted of these brothers with their hands up on 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:09.720 the wall being subject to an ill system, and I'm 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:13.399 imagining a world where your lab is talking to them, yes, 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.440 and working backwards up the stream. What have been some 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:20.840 of the results and at least feedback, especially from the 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.960 community members, from being much more involved in creating their 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:28.760 own solutions. Yes, and so you know, one example of 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.159 one of the organizations that we have learned from is 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:37.440 called Stop LAPD Spine Coalition. You may have heard of them, 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.000 very subtle name. Well, I don't know if I know 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:44.199 what they're about. Yeah, exactly, the Stop LAPD Spine Coalition. 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:47.560 And so they have modeled for us in their advocacy, 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:51.000 in their research is they base their own advocacy and 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:55.240 organizing on talking to community members first. So they created 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:58.640 a survey and with a whole range of questions about 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:02.199 what it feels like to be watched and all of 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:05.160 the different ways that people might not know what surveillance means, 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.320 They might not know what predictive policing means. But when 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:09.760 you break it down and say, has X, Y and 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.280 Z have you experienced this? Have people in your family 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:15.280 experiences has this happened to you? Then that is an 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:18.280 abundance of knowledge that might not necessarily have the latest 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:21.080 jargon and lingo attached to it, but it's a form 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:25.280 of deep experiential knowledge upon which then they're organizing and 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:28.400 their advocacy work has been built, and they have been 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:31.119 so successful in actually beginning to change some of the 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:35.840 policies putting moratory on certain predictive policing practices in LA. 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.960 But that has been based on actually listening to people, right, 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:43.520 so basic, Yeah, but it's also what I resonate with 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:47.080 about that is how does it make you feel? Yes? 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:49.000 What is it like to live like this? And I 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:51.720 think we can be very abstracted away from other people's 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:55.760 experiences when they're statistics and a word surveillance is not 0:19:55.800 --> 0:20:00.920 a deeply emotional word, factly but not trusting. Yes, we 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.800 know that feeling and we don't like that feeling. And 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:05.600 I'm just imagining some of the other words from my 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:09.280 own experience that if we could build deeper sympathies and 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.280 empathies around the shared emotion, we don't want to project 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:14.080 that onto other people. It's something that we will want 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:18.040 to experience ourselves. Yes, yes, anything else you want to 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:21.600 brag on from from your just data student, now, I 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:24.520 would just really encourage you know. Part of it is 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:30.200 just as much about the process as the endpoints, the projects, 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:32.679 or the outputs we call them outputs, yeah, that you 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.000 can find. And so a lot of this has to 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:39.080 do with creating new forms of relationships because we can 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:42.040 talk about the hardware and software all day, but social 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:47.440 technologies like trust, like mutuality, we have to invest as 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:51.600 much intellectual and emotional energy into honing those, building those 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.280 practicing those. It doesn't come natural. We have to actually 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:58.760 price on it, no can't. You can't know, and so 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.600 there's not as much invest in it, right, And so 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:05.160 part of what we're doing is trying to prototype new 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:09.560 relationships amongst ourselves. Like well, our tagline within the lab 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:12.560 is be careful with each other so we can be 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:16.359 dangerous together. So this is a way of you know, 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:21.480 treating one another that yeah, okay, all right now, because 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.280 you know, for me it's important because I have seen 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:30.000 from the outside so many really noble undertakings where the 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:33.159 end just you know, justifies the mean. Where when you 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:36.640 actually are spending time with people, we're not treating each 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:38.960 other in the ways that we want the world to 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:42.920 mirror back to us. Psych is that what's a practical Yes, 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:47.000 example or implementation of how internally, yes, you are careful 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:49.840 with each other. Where's another institution focused on output may 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:52.520 not be Yeah, so there's there's two. One is sort 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.440 of you know, might seem less less grand, but it's 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:59.479 you know, really respecting each other's time and commitments. So 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:01.280 if we see we're going to do something at a 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:05.240 certain time, don't just be respectful to me as the director, 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:06.879 but I want you to have the same regard and 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:10.160 respect for each other's time. So that's just everyday type 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:14.000 of thing. But even sort of bigger picture beyond the 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.320 lab for all of us to consider is to think 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:21.240 about we're in this moment of this really flourishing of 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:26.480 abolitionist thought and imagination. So it's this twin process we're 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:28.640 trying to bring down or trying to grow. We're trying 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:31.359 to plant these seeds. And so part of that is 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:35.280 being critical of the way that punishment and policing has 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:38.359 infected not just the obvious police, but so many of 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:43.000 our institutions are punitive. Healthcare is punitive, Like I've heard 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:46.359 nurses say that, you know, if a patient is a 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:49.679 non compliant, they're supposed to call in the police or 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:53.680 do x Y and Z school, we know is super punitive, 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:56.439 and so if we're critical of that, but in our 0:22:56.480 --> 0:23:00.879 own relationships with each other, we are punitive. We punish 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:04.720 each other for all kinds of things in ways. It 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:08.479 can be passive aggressive or disaggressive aggressive, you know. And 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:11.560 so I remember some years back being on this kind 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:15.920 of traveling caravan with some wonderful colleagues going through South Africa, 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:18.840 and one of the people on our traveling bus was 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:25.199 the Angela Davis and she was standingble I know, she 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:27.720 was standing in front of an auditorium full of students 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:30.399 in Cape Town, and there was a question what do 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:33.560 we do? Question? You know, like we're so excited, like 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:35.080 what do we do? She was like, well, you know, 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:38.520 we can't be critical of policing out there if we're 0:23:38.520 --> 0:23:42.160 punitive in our relationships in here. We have to start modeling. 0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:45.160 We have to start prefiguring the world we want right 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:48.400 in how we treat one another. And so that's part 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:50.600 of the ethos to think about, like how do we 0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:53.960 show up and when people are not looking, when there's 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:58.240 no lights, no camera, you know, behind closed doors, because 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:01.359 if it's all just for the for the show, and 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:07.359 we're not really practicing those new values that ethos. Then 0:24:08.000 --> 0:24:10.800 I don't think we have a strong foundation on which 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:14.080 to erect these structures that we imagine we want. So 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:16.880 in the lab itself, what does that look like? Then? 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:19.119 Do you do you not punish people at all? Do 0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:25.040 you punish people for punishing people? There's accountability versus punishment. 0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:27.600 I think that's two very different things, right, And that's 0:24:27.640 --> 0:24:30.720 part of we think about, you know, the abolitionist approach. 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.160 It's like it's not a free for all. We don't 0:24:33.200 --> 0:24:36.320 just do things and there's no consequence. But it's really 0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:40.240 about thinking about when someone does something that violates a 0:24:40.400 --> 0:24:45.360 norm or it's not respectful, if we really want that 0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:48.080 action to change, then we have to approach it in 0:24:48.119 --> 0:24:52.199 a way that fosters that invites that change, rather that 0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:56.640 punishment doesn't change people's behavior. And so really thinking about 0:24:56.720 --> 0:24:59.320 you know, when we had situations, I mean, we created 0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:02.840 the lab at the of COVID, which means people's lives 0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:05.439 are upside down and we want them to focus on 0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:08.160