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Speaker 1: We can talk about the hardware and software all day,

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Speaker 1: but social technologies like trust, like mutuality, we have to

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Speaker 1: invest as much intellectual and emotional energy into honing those,

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Speaker 1: building those practicing those. It doesn't come natural, and so

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Speaker 1: part of what we're doing is trying to prototype new

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Speaker 1: relationships amongst ourselves. Like well, our tagline within the lab

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Speaker 1: is be careful with each other so we can be

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Speaker 1: dangerous together. Welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day,

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Speaker 1: a podcast that reimagine citizen as a verb, not a

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Speaker 1: legal status. This season is all about how we practice democracy,

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Speaker 1: what can we get rid of, what can we invent,

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Speaker 1: and how do we change the culture of democracy itself.

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Speaker 1: We're leaving the theoretical clouds and hitting the ground with

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Speaker 1: inspiring examples of people and institutions that are showing us

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Speaker 1: new ways to govern ourselves. I first came across the

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Speaker 1: name Ruha Benjamin, such a great sounding name, during the

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Speaker 1: peak of my rebellion against technology and my realization that

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Speaker 1: it was causing a lot of harm. It was the

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Speaker 1: fall of twenty eighteen. I was living in New York

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Speaker 1: City and working out of a place called the Data

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Speaker 1: in Society Research Institute. Which is about what it sounds like.

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Speaker 1: They're focused on the impact of data centric technologies on

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Speaker 1: society and how they affect people, especially those in marginalized communities.

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Speaker 1: Ruha was coming through to talk about her new book,

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Speaker 1: Race After Technology, a book that was saying out loud

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Speaker 1: and imprint a lot of the things that I'd also

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Speaker 1: been feeling and thinking and saying. In particular, she coined

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Speaker 1: this phrase the new gym code. I mean, come on now,

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Speaker 1: I'm a sucker for wordplay. That's amazing, And this is

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Speaker 1: basically her definition of the new gym code. Using technology

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Speaker 1: to reflect or even reproduce existing inequalities, while concealing that

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Speaker 1: by promoting the tech with the language of progress and

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Speaker 1: objectivity that masks the fact that it's built on the

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Speaker 1: discrimination from a previous era. I cheered when I saw

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Speaker 1: that because it echoed my own statements around the time

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Speaker 1: that we might find the civil rights battles of the

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Speaker 1: future harder to win because they'd be encoded in this

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Speaker 1: technocentric language of progress and fairness and equality. But the

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Speaker 1: systems will actually make us more oppressed by literally codifying

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Speaker 1: discrimination in the data in tech that's based on our

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Speaker 1: unjust past. We'd write history into our futures, and not

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Speaker 1: in a good way. So Ruha was saying all that

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Speaker 1: and so much more. When I saw her three years

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Speaker 1: later at south By Southwest in twenty twenty two, she

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Speaker 1: was moderating a panel on a virtual and augmented reality

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Speaker 1: experience that beautifully honored the life of Brianna Taylor. Sadly,

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Speaker 1: we know about Brianna because the Louisville Metro Police shot

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Speaker 1: and killed her in the summer of twenty twenty. In

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Speaker 1: this case, technology was being used to help a family

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Speaker 1: and a community remember Brianna's life, not just her death,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately help them heal. Ruha was helping show a

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Speaker 1: different and more positive experience of technology and its impact.

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Speaker 1: Along with bringing community connection and facilitation to the front

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Speaker 1: of her fight for justice. Ruha is echoing that same

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Speaker 1: joy and warmth that Adrian Marie Brown brought us at

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Speaker 1: the start of this season, and her work connects to

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Speaker 1: the way we think about citizen as a verb. Here

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Speaker 1: at the show, our four pillars show up and participate,

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Speaker 1: invest in relationships, understand power, and value the collective are

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Speaker 1: things she practices, not just preaches, Especially on relationships and power.

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Speaker 1: She does much of that practice as founding director of

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Speaker 1: the Data Lab at Princeton, where she also teaches. The

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Speaker 1: lab is focused on rethinking and retooling the relationship between

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Speaker 1: stories and statistics, power and technology, data and justice. They

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Speaker 1: invite community based organizations to partner with them on building

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Speaker 1: technologies that meet their needs, from mapping the work of

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Speaker 1: companies engaged in immigrants surveillance and developing tools for formerly

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Speaker 1: incarcerated small business owners, to creating playbooks about black maternal

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Speaker 1: mental health and resources for tenants facing eviction. And that's

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Speaker 1: just naming a few. I consider Uja to be a

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Speaker 1: kindred spirit and it's so cool to finally have her

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Speaker 1: on the show. Now. We got together in front of

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Speaker 1: a live i RL audience in New York in September

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. It was part of a conference and

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Speaker 1: festival called Unfinished. I've been hosting that event for three

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Speaker 1: years straight because it's so well aligned with what we

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Speaker 1: do here at How to Citizen. This gathering is predicated

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Speaker 1: on interpreting the project of a mer the possibilities of technology,

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Speaker 1: even democracy itself, as well as Unfinished, especially in this

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Speaker 1: moment where both democracy and technology feel like they're on

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Speaker 1: the precipice of something, something great or something terrible. While

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Speaker 1: it unfinished, Ruhat and I sat down for a special

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Speaker 1: live taping of Hot to Citizen, which you'll hear right after.

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Speaker 1: We pay for this podcast with an ad break. Yes, Yes,

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Speaker 1: smatterings of applause are encouraged, encouraged, Thank you. We're here

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Speaker 1: first context on the podcast, which I assume you all

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Speaker 1: listened to religiously. But there may be one person who's

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Speaker 1: never heard of podcasting and hasn't gotten around to the

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Speaker 1: billion that exists in the world. The premise of our

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Speaker 1: show is that we interpret the word citizen as a verb,

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Speaker 1: and we see it as an opportunity to include people

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Speaker 1: in the process, as opposed to this noun that divides

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Speaker 1: us from one another, separating people across imagine every line.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm sitting here with you, Ruha, because of

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Speaker 1: your book, and I was I here yelling in these

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Speaker 1: Internet streets about you know, the bias baked into the

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Speaker 1: system and they're making us new digital slaves and black box.

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Speaker 1: First of why I got to be a black box?

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Speaker 1: Why can't just be another obfuscated box? Why I gotta

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Speaker 1: be black? So I feel like you gotta reruha. You

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Speaker 1: gotta reruha. So I came across Raced after technology the

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Speaker 1: New You Gym Code, after having already read the New

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Speaker 1: Gym Chrome many years prior. And I would love to

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Speaker 1: know to start us off, how you're weaving of medicine

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Speaker 1: and technology and technological systems with ideas of power and

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Speaker 1: ultimately liberation, which we'll get to. Where does that come

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Speaker 1: from for you? Yes, so many origin stories. First of all,

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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, good to see you. I'm so thrilled to

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Speaker 1: be in conversation with Bartunde, whose work I read I

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Speaker 1: first started teaching as a young assistant professor BU and

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Speaker 1: it was the first and only book that had me

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Speaker 1: cackling on the airplane, like to the to everyone around.

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Speaker 1: It was mad because I was reading this and just

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Speaker 1: loved how incisive, how brilliant, how you use humor to

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Speaker 1: get us to open our hearts in our minds. So

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Speaker 1: thank you. So she's referring to how to Be Black, Yes,

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Speaker 1: which if you haven't bought your Races, that's just the

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Speaker 1: marketing sciences, not it's not accusing you back. So I

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Speaker 1: just I have been a huge fan of bartun Day's

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Speaker 1: work for a long time. Um, so so many origin stories,

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Speaker 1: you know, when someone asked you, how did you start?

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Speaker 1: And also I'll try to just distill perhaps two quick

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Speaker 1: personal experiences or times in my life that have led

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Speaker 1: me to this work. One is as a young in

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Speaker 1: growing up in Los Angeles. Imagine little seven or eight

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Speaker 1: year old Ruha in the back of her grandma's gold

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Speaker 1: Chrysler cruising down Crenshaw Boulevar exactly and how many times

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Speaker 1: have I heard that? So, you know, and just being

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Speaker 1: you know, just a wide eyed young kid, you know,

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Speaker 1: and passing by this one moment, passing by a group

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Speaker 1: of boys from my school lined up against the fence

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Speaker 1: very close to my house being patted down very aggressively

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Speaker 1: and shamefully, and just kind of catching their eye as

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Speaker 1: I'm in the back seat and seeing that very overt

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Speaker 1: form of policing that wasn't just meant to shame them

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Speaker 1: and control them, but it felt like a message to

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Speaker 1: all of us about where we belonged and what we were,

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Speaker 1: what we could expect, and that was reinforced and amplified

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Speaker 1: in many, many different ways, most notably just the everyday

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Speaker 1: audible experience of police helicopters rumbling overhead in Los Angeles,

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Speaker 1: you know, as a resident, and just the literal wall

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Speaker 1: shaking in my grandma's house a periodic intervals. So I

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Speaker 1: think of us as being in police occupied neighborhoods, and so,

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Speaker 1: you know, as a young mother, then I remember times

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Speaker 1: putting my boys to sleep in that same house and

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Speaker 1: the lights of the helicopters shining in and waking them up,

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Speaker 1: and so this very physical presence of policing. Then realizing that, oh,

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Speaker 1: there are other less visible, less audible ways in which

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Speaker 1: surveillance technologies are being deployed that perhaps are even more

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Speaker 1: dangerous because I can't point to them, because I can't

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Speaker 1: see them. And so it sort of led me to

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Speaker 1: look behind the screen, look at things that are out

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Speaker 1: of sight but are nevertheless classifying people controlling our lives

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Speaker 1: and in very harmful ways. And so there's this experience

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Speaker 1: of just being someone who understands what it is like

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Speaker 1: to be watched and not seen that has led to

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Speaker 1: this work. The other origin story comes from being a

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Speaker 1: young mother. I had my sons in my twenties and

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Speaker 1: living in Atlanta, Georgia at the time, and with my

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Speaker 1: first son, realizing what the experience was probably going to

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Speaker 1: be like with childbirth and the overly medicalized approach to

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Speaker 1: childbirth in this country, and understanding that there are different

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Speaker 1: schools of childbirth. There's the conventional obstetrics medicalized approach to

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Speaker 1: childbirth that we're familiar with and that I Binge watched

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Speaker 1: when I was pregnant with the birth story, and just

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Speaker 1: understanding what I could expect if I had my child

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Speaker 1: in a hospital, which is that the schedules of other

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Speaker 1: people would proceed mine that I could expect various technologies

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Speaker 1: that I may not necessarily need, that can be life

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Speaker 1: saving in some situations but have become normalized. And for

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Speaker 1: those who don't know, the experience of black women in

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Speaker 1: particular in our healthcare settings and childbirth in particular is

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Speaker 1: astronomically worse than everyone else. But I learned about midwiff free,

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Speaker 1: a different approach where you can either have your child

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Speaker 1: in a hospital, a birth center at home with the

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Speaker 1: accompaniment of dulas and midwives birthworkers, and the experience is

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Speaker 1: much much different. Centers the woman or birth in person,

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Speaker 1: centers our autonomy, our dignity is based on respect and

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Speaker 1: mutuality and trust, and that's what I chose to do.

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Speaker 1: And that's when I became critical of both authoritative forms

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Speaker 1: of knowledge, whether whatever sciences or medicine that is, but

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Speaker 1: also that other forms of expertise that exist and that

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Speaker 1: are often sort of marginalized and discounted in the form

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Speaker 1: in this case of childbirthing knowledge, and also became critical

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Speaker 1: of the overabundance of technology in our lives that we

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Speaker 1: may not necessarily need. But that just gives you a

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Speaker 1: sense of my critical take on when things are being

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Speaker 1: sold to us as a straightforward good without thinking carefully

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Speaker 1: about how they're actually being experienced. Would you describe this

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Speaker 1: as your critical race theory? Yes, yes, I would, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I would leap that out. I want the people a Georgia.

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Speaker 1: But they hear this exactly. Midwifery is actually a good

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Speaker 1: and unexpected segue. I'd like to spend the bulk of

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Speaker 1: the remainder of our time in this word seeds and

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Speaker 1: in midwifing new ideas of design, justice, of freedom, of thriving,

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Speaker 1: of liberation. One effort that you've undertaken is to create

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Speaker 1: the Ida B. Wells Just Data Lab at Princeton. What

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Speaker 1: is that? Yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. Because

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Speaker 1: that means we get to talk about my students, yes,

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Speaker 1: which is where a lot of my optimism, hope, and

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Speaker 1: energy comes from is getting to hang out with eighteen

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Speaker 1: to twenty two year olds all day who are both

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Speaker 1: critical and creative in their approaches. And so Ida B.

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Speaker 1: Wells I named it after Ida B Wells because, and

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Speaker 1: now an explainer to today if you're not familiar. Ida B.

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Speaker 1: Wells was a civil rights leader, suffragette, and investigative journalist

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Speaker 1: who lived from eighteen sixty two to nineteen thirty one.

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Speaker 1: She's best known for her work documenting racial terror lynchings

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Speaker 1: in the United States, and her most famous work is

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Speaker 1: The Red Record, an historic effort to quantify lynchings in

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Speaker 1: the US after slavery. I named it after Ida B

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Speaker 1: Wells because for many reasons, but one very personal reason

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Speaker 1: is that her grandson was my dissertation advisor, doctor Troy Duster,

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Speaker 1: and so I've felt a kinship with her, her family

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Speaker 1: and that legacy because he's the one who brought me

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Speaker 1: into this field of theology of science, knowledge and medicine,

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Speaker 1: and so as a tribute to that legacy, and also

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Speaker 1: because she used both statistics and stories to shine a

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Speaker 1: light on what is ailing us and the forms of

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Speaker 1: violence and injustice. And it's that combination those different tools

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Speaker 1: that we need the data, but the data itself is

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Speaker 1: not going to save us, because people can tell all

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Speaker 1: kinds of stories about data to justify all kinds of things.

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Speaker 1: And so it's that marrying of the narrative with the

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Speaker 1: and that I wanted to use as a beacon for

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Speaker 1: my own students. So these are students who aren't necessarily

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Speaker 1: in my classes, some of them are. They come from

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Speaker 1: many different disciplines from the STEM side, humanity, social sciences,

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Speaker 1: but they share an underlying desire to engage in what

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Speaker 1: we call tech justice, and so thinking about technol oology

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Speaker 1: not just as hardware software, but taking the stories as

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Speaker 1: seriously as we do the software. So we have artists

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Speaker 1: up in there. We have people who didn't necessarily take

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Speaker 1: a single computer science class, but who are bringing a

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Speaker 1: different skill set and approach. And one of the ways

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Speaker 1: that we've structured the lab is that we collaborate with

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Speaker 1: community based organizations insanity, humane and consensual. That is not

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Speaker 1: the technology that so many of us have been subjected

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Speaker 1: to in an autocratic kind of way, literally as subjects

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Speaker 1: to someone else's will, And say, you're describing really all

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Speaker 1: those words, this consensual, respectful relationship where it is a

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Speaker 1: feature not a bug, that someone who isn't a computer

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Speaker 1: programmer is involved in the programming because non programmers are

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Speaker 1: going to be living with these technologies. So what sorts

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Speaker 1: of critical and creative work have been prototyped and researched

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Speaker 1: in this last so as I was saying, we take

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Speaker 1: our marching orders from the organizations that we collaborate with.

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Speaker 1: Rather than study them or bring ideas to them, we

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Speaker 1: ask what would help you as an organizer? What would

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Speaker 1: help you as an organization do your work better? Silicon Valley,

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Speaker 1: are you listening? You have to prebake the solution, talk

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Speaker 1: to those who are most impacted. Whether we have a

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Speaker 1: team working on housing justice, we have a team working

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Speaker 1: on workers rights, we have a team working on maternal mortality.

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Speaker 1: And they collaborate with organizations all over the country, some

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Speaker 1: in Canada and elsewhere. But again, so getting the questions

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Speaker 1: from the source right, And so when we think about

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Speaker 1: design justice, we think about collaboration. Most corners of our world,

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Speaker 1: like if you go to NSF National Science Foundation and

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Speaker 1: get a grant, they'll tell you better have a community

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Speaker 1: organization involved. But oftentimes we're involving them much later in

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Speaker 1: the process, right, And sometimes it's window dressing. Sometimes it's

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Speaker 1: theatrical in terms of showing that you have this community support,

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Speaker 1: rather than starting at the very very beginning and find

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Speaker 1: out what questions should we be asking as researchers, as

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Speaker 1: a lab and get the questions and get the insights

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Speaker 1: from the start that let that be directed by our partners.

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Speaker 1: And so if you go to the Just Data Lab

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Speaker 1: dot org and go to the projects tab, you'll see

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Speaker 1: a wide range of projects that have come out of it,

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Speaker 1: whether it's dealing with police surveillance. Oftentimes we're casting the

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Speaker 1: light back on power, going back to how to citizen.

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Speaker 1: Rather than studying the most vulnerable who are trying to

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Speaker 1: navigate hostile systems, we say, who's creating this vulnerability, who's

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Speaker 1: creating this risk? Let's actually point our digital lens and

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Speaker 1: collect data and shine a light on upstream what's creating

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Speaker 1: these problems. So I'm going back to the pictures you

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Speaker 1: initially painted of these brothers with their hands up on

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Speaker 1: the wall being subject to an ill system, and I'm

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Speaker 1: imagining a world where your lab is talking to them, yes,

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Speaker 1: and working backwards up the stream. What have been some

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Speaker 1: of the results and at least feedback, especially from the

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Speaker 1: community members, from being much more involved in creating their

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Speaker 1: own solutions. Yes, and so you know, one example of

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Speaker 1: one of the organizations that we have learned from is

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Speaker 1: called Stop LAPD Spine Coalition. You may have heard of them,

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Speaker 1: very subtle name. Well, I don't know if I know

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Speaker 1: what they're about. Yeah, exactly, the Stop LAPD Spine Coalition.

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Speaker 1: And so they have modeled for us in their advocacy,

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Speaker 1: in their research is they base their own advocacy and

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Speaker 1: organizing on talking to community members first. So they created

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Speaker 1: a survey and with a whole range of questions about

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Speaker 1: what it feels like to be watched and all of

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Speaker 1: the different ways that people might not know what surveillance means,

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Speaker 1: They might not know what predictive policing means. But when

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Speaker 1: you break it down and say, has X, Y and

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Speaker 1: Z have you experienced this? Have people in your family

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Speaker 1: experiences has this happened to you? Then that is an

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Speaker 1: abundance of knowledge that might not necessarily have the latest

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Speaker 1: jargon and lingo attached to it, but it's a form

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Speaker 1: of deep experiential knowledge upon which then they're organizing and

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Speaker 1: their advocacy work has been built, and they have been

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Speaker 1: so successful in actually beginning to change some of the

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Speaker 1: policies putting moratory on certain predictive policing practices in LA.

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Speaker 1: But that has been based on actually listening to people, right,

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Speaker 1: so basic, Yeah, but it's also what I resonate with

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Speaker 1: about that is how does it make you feel? Yes?

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Speaker 1: What is it like to live like this? And I

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Speaker 1: think we can be very abstracted away from other people's

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Speaker 1: experiences when they're statistics and a word surveillance is not

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Speaker 1: a deeply emotional word, factly but not trusting. Yes, we

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Speaker 1: know that feeling and we don't like that feeling. And

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Speaker 1: I'm just imagining some of the other words from my

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Speaker 1: own experience that if we could build deeper sympathies and

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Speaker 1: empathies around the shared emotion, we don't want to project

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Speaker 1: that onto other people. It's something that we will want

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Speaker 1: to experience ourselves. Yes, yes, anything else you want to

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Speaker 1: brag on from from your just data student, now, I

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Speaker 1: would just really encourage you know. Part of it is

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Speaker 1: just as much about the process as the endpoints, the projects,

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Speaker 1: or the outputs we call them outputs, yeah, that you

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Speaker 1: can find. And so a lot of this has to

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Speaker 1: do with creating new forms of relationships because we can

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Speaker 1: talk about the hardware and software all day, but social

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Speaker 1: technologies like trust, like mutuality, we have to invest as

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Speaker 1: much intellectual and emotional energy into honing those, building those

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Speaker 1: practicing those. It doesn't come natural. We have to actually

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Speaker 1: price on it, no can't. You can't know, and so

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Speaker 1: there's not as much invest in it, right, And so

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Speaker 1: part of what we're doing is trying to prototype new

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Speaker 1: relationships amongst ourselves. Like well, our tagline within the lab

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Speaker 1: is be careful with each other so we can be

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Speaker 1: dangerous together. So this is a way of you know,

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Speaker 1: treating one another that yeah, okay, all right now, because

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Speaker 1: you know, for me it's important because I have seen

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Speaker 1: from the outside so many really noble undertakings where the

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Speaker 1: end just you know, justifies the mean. Where when you

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Speaker 1: actually are spending time with people, we're not treating each

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Speaker 1: other in the ways that we want the world to

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Speaker 1: mirror back to us. Psych is that what's a practical Yes,

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Speaker 1: example or implementation of how internally, yes, you are careful

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Speaker 1: with each other. Where's another institution focused on output may

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Speaker 1: not be Yeah, so there's there's two. One is sort

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Speaker 1: of you know, might seem less less grand, but it's

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Speaker 1: you know, really respecting each other's time and commitments. So

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Speaker 1: if we see we're going to do something at a

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Speaker 1: certain time, don't just be respectful to me as the director,

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Speaker 1: but I want you to have the same regard and

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Speaker 1: respect for each other's time. So that's just everyday type

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Speaker 1: of thing. But even sort of bigger picture beyond the

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Speaker 1: lab for all of us to consider is to think

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Speaker 1: about we're in this moment of this really flourishing of

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Speaker 1: abolitionist thought and imagination. So it's this twin process we're

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Speaker 1: trying to bring down or trying to grow. We're trying

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Speaker 1: to plant these seeds. And so part of that is

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Speaker 1: being critical of the way that punishment and policing has

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Speaker 1: infected not just the obvious police, but so many of

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Speaker 1: our institutions are punitive. Healthcare is punitive, Like I've heard

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Speaker 1: nurses say that, you know, if a patient is a

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Speaker 1: non compliant, they're supposed to call in the police or

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Speaker 1: do x Y and Z school, we know is super punitive,

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Speaker 1: and so if we're critical of that, but in our

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Speaker 1: own relationships with each other, we are punitive. We punish

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Speaker 1: each other for all kinds of things in ways. It

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Speaker 1: can be passive aggressive or disaggressive aggressive, you know. And

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Speaker 1: so I remember some years back being on this kind

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Speaker 1: of traveling caravan with some wonderful colleagues going through South Africa,

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Speaker 1: and one of the people on our traveling bus was

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Speaker 1: the Angela Davis and she was standingble I know, she

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Speaker 1: was standing in front of an auditorium full of students

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Speaker 1: in Cape Town, and there was a question what do

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Speaker 1: we do? Question? You know, like we're so excited, like

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Speaker 1: what do we do? She was like, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: we can't be critical of policing out there if we're

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Speaker 1: punitive in our relationships in here. We have to start modeling.

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Speaker 1: We have to start prefiguring the world we want right

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Speaker 1: in how we treat one another. And so that's part

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Speaker 1: of the ethos to think about, like how do we

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Speaker 1: show up and when people are not looking, when there's

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Speaker 1: no lights, no camera, you know, behind closed doors, because

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Speaker 1: if it's all just for the for the show, and

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Speaker 1: we're not really practicing those new values that ethos. Then

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Speaker 1: I don't think we have a strong foundation on which

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Speaker 1: to erect these structures that we imagine we want. So

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Speaker 1: in the lab itself, what does that look like? Then?

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Speaker 1: Do you do you not punish people at all? Do

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Speaker 1: you punish people for punishing people? There's accountability versus punishment.

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Speaker 1: I think that's two very different things, right, And that's

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Speaker 1: part of we think about, you know, the abolitionist approach.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's not a free for all. We don't

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Speaker 1: just do things and there's no consequence. But it's really

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Speaker 1: about thinking about when someone does something that violates a

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Speaker 1: norm or it's not respectful, if we really want that

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Speaker 1: action to change, then we have to approach it in

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Speaker 1: a way that fosters that invites that change, rather that

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Speaker 1: punishment doesn't change people's behavior. And so really thinking about

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Speaker 1: you know, when we had situations, I mean, we created

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Speaker 1: the lab at the of COVID, which means people's lives

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Speaker 1: are upside down and we want them to focus on

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Speaker 1: work and research. I don't care how important it is.

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Speaker 1: You have a whole life. You have parents dying, you

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Speaker 1: have siblings who are sick, and so part of bringing

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Speaker 1: this ethos inside the lab is to say we are

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Speaker 1: whole people. We are students, sometimes we're professors, We're not

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Speaker 1: our jobs. And so it's trying to build in that

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Speaker 1: approach to put work in its place, you know. And

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Speaker 1: so I think we can appreciate that in our own

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Speaker 1: beyond what I'm talking about and thinking about the role

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Speaker 1: of work and you know, getting things done, but also

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Speaker 1: realizing that we are living in an extraordinary moment in

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Speaker 1: which we're all hurting, we're all grieving, and so we

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Speaker 1: shouldn't simply just put our emotions at the door. We

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Speaker 1: should find a way to metabolize it in the way

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Speaker 1: that we work and organize ourselves. Metabolizing and whole person

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Speaker 1: reminds me of the dat First all you in person

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Speaker 1: south By Southwest twenty twenty two, you were leading a

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Speaker 1: discussion about an immersive art experience called Brihanna's Garden, which

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Speaker 1: was erected to I think honor the whole person. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it was Brianna Taylor, who many of us only know

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Speaker 1: as a victim of gun violence, of police violence, of

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Speaker 1: the state of no knock, warrants of black lives not mattering. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and so to briefly summarize, this is an AR experience,

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Speaker 1: a VR experience now that the family was a part

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Speaker 1: of building. Yes, that has volumetric capture of Brianna's sister,

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Speaker 1: the voice of her boyfriend. It's a you can drop

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Speaker 1: this garden in the room right now. You can install

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Speaker 1: it from the app store, and you encounter flowers that

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Speaker 1: have voiced memos embedded in them. So as you touch

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Speaker 1: a flower, you hear a message from someone who was

431
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: moved by Brianna, whether they knew her or not exactly.

432
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: There's voices from all over the world, most beautifully and

433
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: non hideously. There's no Nazi graffiti in this space. There's

434
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: no hate spewing. This is a curated experience, a moderated space.

435
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: And so I saw you moderating this conversation, and I

436
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: wonder how did you get connected to that project and

437
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: what did that mean to you as far as a

438
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: seed and an imagination of how we might be using technologies, Yes,

439
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: in a way that cares for allows us to care

440
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: for each other and create the systems we want to

441
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: live in. Yes. So, first of all, you described it

442
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: so beautifully. It's no movie to think about it. I

443
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: think if Brianna's family was not did not co create

444
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: this was not part of it from the beginning, was

445
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: not asked permission for this to be created. I wouldn't

446
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: have come near it with a ten foot poll, even

447
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: though I respected them Bleed designer, the team. To me,

448
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: it was absolutely crucial that this was their wish, that

449
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: they had input at every stage, and that in its

450
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 1: circulation in the world, that a family member is present

451
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: at all of you know, all of the yes. Yeah.

452
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: So I will say I knew the lead designer on

453
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: this and how careful she was in Lady Phoenix and

454
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: approaching the family, and her motivation was that she noticed

455
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: that in the aftermath of Brianna's murder that they there

456
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: was no place online, which is how especially young people,

457
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: there's no separation like your life is online that they

458
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: could grieve or express themselves. They were being harassed and

459
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: sent death threats and getting all of these messages, and

460
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: so like, the seed for her was what if we

461
00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: could create a space for the family to express themselves

462
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: their love, their care, their grief around this, And that

463
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: was where Brianna's Garden was first born. But she went

464
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: and said, is this something that you would want again

465
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,959
Speaker 1: asking permission, and if they had said no, she wouldn't

466
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,239
Speaker 1: have done it no matter how. Now it's won all

467
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: these awards, it's getting all this attention, but that was

468
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: not the purpose. The purpose was for the family to

469
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: have a space. And what happened, as you describe, is

470
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: that it has become a space for so many people

471
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: not only to express their emotions around Brianna, but their

472
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: own unprocessed grief at all of the loss that people

473
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: have experienced over the last two years. So it's really

474
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: become this model for how we can curate and shape

475
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: and design different values and create spaces intentionally for healing

476
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: and for solidarity. And so yes, that is the story

477
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: of how I was pulled in, and I think why

478
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: I was because I'm so critical of technology. So they

479
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: were like, if we can get hurt of like that, man,

480
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: we must be doing something good. So it's kind of like, okay,

481
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: ruins on the panel. So so I went to that

482
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: panel and I installed the app from the audience and

483
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: I popped it up in my hotel room. Later that night,

484
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: I wept a lot just hearing other people and I

485
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: was left my own message about you know, losing my

486
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: mother to colon cancer at a pretty young age of

487
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: sixty five years old. I ended up going months later.

488
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: It's mayish and we had these twin foolish tragedies self

489
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: inflicted in the US in Buffalo with the Masks, shooting

490
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: at the Tops food market in Uvaldi at the school,

491
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: and I was at I was at my end with

492
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: like the whole thing. Just America. Yes, I'm like, I'm

493
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: out here, pretty hottest citizen, done whatever, do your thing. Yeah,

494
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 1: I was just I felt a bit broken, Yes, And

495
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: I found myself in DC, where I'm from, and I

496
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: went to the FM Museum and a friend works there,

497
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: and I said to her, like, I need to be uplifted.

498
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: I get it. The problems are problematic, problem is going

499
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: to problem. Yes, my heart is broken in pieces. So

500
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to skip the basement of the museum, which

501
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: is all about the origin of the slave trade in

502
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: Belgium and the ships. And she's India Company. I'm like,

503
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: can you take me to a higher level? Literally literally

504
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: climbed the mountain together. And she showed me a few

505
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,239
Speaker 1: of the dark things, just to like reconnect. But one

506
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: of the most beautiful things she showed me is that

507
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: Brihanna's in the museum. Yes, there's this beautiful portrait. And

508
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: I popped open my phone and I put Brihanna next

509
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: to Brianna in the museum, and she had never heard

510
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: this curator and so she saw this, She's like, oh

511
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: my God. And it just felt like, all right, My

512
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: heart was healed a little bit just having her in

513
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: her own garden represent it in analog art and digital art.

514
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,959
Speaker 1: Of that augmenting our reality was something more beautiful than

515
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: what the reality I was experiencing at a time. So yeah,

516
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: powerful stuff powerful So and would I would be permiss

517
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: if I didn't say, again, echoing Lady Phoenix, that the

518
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: purpose for the whole team there is not to remember

519
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: Brianna for her pain, but for her purpose. Yeah, as

520
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: we know, she was training to be a nurse, she

521
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: was working at the front lines of COVID, and so

522
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: for the team and the family, she's carrying on her

523
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: work of healing in doing this for all of us. Yeah,

524
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: which I experienced directly, Yes, after the break, how reimagining

525
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: our social technologies can help us grow the world we want.

526
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: You have this book coming out, Viral Justice, which is

527
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: filled with tales of more seeds that we might cultivate

528
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: in water and grow into a garden that we would

529
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: be happy to inhabit in terms of the way we

530
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: structure our society. Can you share a bit more of

531
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: the seeds that you're excited about, especially as they relate

532
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: to our ability to self govern and maybe with that

533
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: intersection of technology and science as well. Absolutely, so I'll

534
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: try to just give you two or three seeds, literal seeds.

535
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: I mean, like the beginning is like literally getting our

536
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: hands dirty in terms of working with the earth. You know,

537
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: there's a man named Ron Finley in my neighborhood in

538
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: Los Angeles who the guerrilla gardener, the gangster garden gardener. Yeah,

539
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: and so part of it is like him just realizing

540
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: the food and security, the food deserts, and the toll

541
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: that takes on our health. And so he looked at

542
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: these parkways that are all over La, the little patch

543
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: of grass between people's homes and the streets, and said,

544
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: what if we just created urban gardens. And when he

545
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,879
Speaker 1: first started, the city sided him right again, policing there

546
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 1: they go, there they go again. And so people get

547
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,439
Speaker 1: you know, organized with him, and not only push that back,

548
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: but this has flourished this whole, you know, over I

549
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: think twenty urban gardens now using not just the parkways

550
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: but all different kinds of spaces. And so it's one

551
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: of those literal examples of not working in your backyard,

552
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: but working in your front yard and just starting to

553
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: create what we need more of, right and so thinking

554
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: about that as a kind of you know, inspiration for

555
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 1: all of the different ways we can get our hands

556
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: dirty and just work right where we are. Definitely advocating

557
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: for big structural policy change, is not taking away from that,

558
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 1: but not waiting for that either. And so the book

559
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: ends so if it starts with finlay, it ends with

560
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: a group in Seattle called the Seattle Solidarity Budget, which

561
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 1: over the last couple of years has managed by bringing

562
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,479
Speaker 1: together over two hundred different organizations throughout the city working

563
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: on all kinds of things, from indigenous rights to environmental justice,

564
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: to healthcare to housing to education. All of them have

565
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 1: come together and have managed to slowly start reducing the

566
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: policing budget and investing in all of these different things

567
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: that actually make us safe. And so part of it

568
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: is this coalition, and it's thinking about what do we

569
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: have in common. We might have these different lanes that

570
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: we're in, things we really really care about. But there's

571
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: this bigger umbrella that's about thinking about budgets, as they say,

572
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: are moral documents. Getting back to the data and understanding

573
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 1: that the numbers, you know, that is values in those numbers,

574
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 1: not just economic values, but our social values are reflected

575
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 1: in those numbers. And so they say, if you look

576
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: at the city budget, those are our values where we're

577
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: putting the money. And so they've managed over time, working

578
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: town hall meetings and zoom meetings you can attend and

579
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: see how they have brought this coalition together and are

580
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: having success in shifting the values literally of this entire city.

581
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: And they provide a great model for me, a viral justice.

582
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: Do you have any insight into how they are handling

583
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: some of the backlash to these moments. There was a

584
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: peak of people's budgets and participatory budgeting and shifting reallocating

585
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: resources away from policing into more community healing, which got

586
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: shortened somewhat unfortunately at times to defund the police, because

587
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: there was another side to that argument. Now that graffiti's

588
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: up and crimes up, and encampments are up, and some

589
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: people who might have been along for the ride are

590
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 1: no longer? Yes, How is the Solidarity Budget group there?

591
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: How are they dealing with that? Yeah? I can't speak

592
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: exactly to how they might be dealing with the backlash

593
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: in Seattle specifically, but what I've seen as effective is

594
00:36:55,400 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: people taking seriously this copaganda, these narratives about rising crime,

595
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: and taking issue with policing as a solution for crime,

596
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: which it's not because with inflated police budgets, the so

597
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: called crime rates, you know, like those things don't aren't correlating,

598
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: but also asking you know, what do we want to

599
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: invest in and taking issue with all of these scare

600
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: narratives around that. And so there's a number of people

601
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 1: both in terms of social media pushback but on the ground,

602
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: taking seriously the stories that are being told about our

603
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 1: cities and about why people are houseless or why people

604
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 1: are are precarious, and getting to the root of the

605
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 1: problem without thinking that policing are ever going to be

606
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: a solution to any of these. Do you have moments

607
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: of surrender or total exhaustion? And if so, how have

608
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: you pushed through them or moved beyond them or have

609
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: you Yes? So, I'm travert, as my friends know, and

610
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: so I am very careful to refuel, like as a

611
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: matter of survival. And so that has to do with

612
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: me person but it also has to do with thinking

613
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: about when I'm working in groups and collectives in terms

614
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: of you know, whether it's student groups or community groups,

615
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: like balancing the play and the policy, like you know,

616
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: we have to have that joy as much as we

617
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: do the anger. And so I think just in integrating

618
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: that has helped me sort of trug along like the

619
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: little engine that could. And I think, as I said,

620
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: working with young people and feeling like I can't give

621
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: them this gloom and doom diagnosis of what's ailing us

622
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: without offering with the other hand, like this is what

623
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: we can do about it, you know, this is how

624
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: people are already doing things about it. So for me

625
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: as an educator, especially at a place like Princeton, where

626
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: they're groomed to think of themselves as the solution to

627
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: all of the problems, like create an app for that,

628
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: creative new business for that, my mantra is find out

629
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 1: who's already working on that, Listen to them, collaborate with them,

630
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: learn from them, don't think of yourself as and so

631
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: that it actually is an antidote for burnout and depression.

632
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: Because you are working with people, you don't have to

633
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: do this, but you don't have to do it, and

634
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: you should not do this by yourself. And because that

635
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: is another kind of hubrist it, burnout and hubrist like,

636
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 1: you're not supposed to be doing all of that. Why

637
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 1: are you trying to fix a whole society? Please? You

638
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: can't create one by yourself. Sit down? Yes, If two

639
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 1: of you want to throw in a question or comment,

640
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: this is the time to shoot your hand up with no,

641
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: I see one? Anybody else want to get in the queue? Two? Okay,

642
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 1: then let's hear from you. Let's hear a name, a

643
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 1: geospatial reference as far as where you reside, as specific

644
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: or general as you like, and then your remark. Please.

645
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: My name is Bruce Traus. I live in New Jersey,

646
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: about forty minutes away from Princeton. I have a website

647
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: called One Common Purpose dot com. It's a holistic look

648
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: at life. Now talking about let's say racism, which I

649
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: call ending mistreatment, discrimination and hatred towards those who are

650
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:25,240
Speaker 1: different nationality, different religion, different race, different ethnicity, and different

651
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: sexual irritation. There's aspects to that that I have never

652
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: heard disgust see the person each of us talks to

653
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: more than anyone else's oneself. There are things in life

654
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: that affect the person. Affected in person means you have

655
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: certain thoughts about certain things that have an impact on

656
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: your life. So a racist basically has anti thoughts that's

657
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: reinforced by a few other things. I don't want to

658
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: keep it going too long, but to me, getting to

659
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: people and there's a process to get to people when

660
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: they're younger so that they can understand aspects like that,

661
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: so that if somebody reads or sees or hears something,

662
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 1: they can withstand it because they understand what could happen

663
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: within their own mind. I accept your submission of a comment.

664
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: There was not a question mark at the end of it.

665
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: I don't think, but I want to thank you. Where

666
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 1: at such a limited time, Well, the question is what

667
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,919
Speaker 1: do you think of that? Each of you? I don't

668
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: know man to be Yeah, you shared a lot, but

669
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 1: it was having a little hard time. Tracking and getting

670
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: to people younger and relationship with self feel like two

671
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: very important pieces of the puzzle. As I mentioned in

672
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: our principles. To start with having a connection with yourself

673
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: is very important, and I think on that score, so

674
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: it's important before you go out into the world. I

675
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:52,879
Speaker 1: think a lot of young people actually feel a ton

676
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 1: of pressure right now to have positions and stances and

677
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: press conference ready statements about all kinds of complicated things

678
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: that they might be new to. And so there's I'd

679
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 1: like to apply some counter pressure or relief that says

680
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: it's okay not to know. I heard something on this

681
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: stage earlier today that the highest form of wisdom is

682
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: total uncertainty, and I was like, Oh, that's a that's

683
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: an ego check right there in terms of the value

684
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: of hubrists that rue I was just talking about. So

685
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 1: it's related, you know, to your operation and to your premise.

686
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: We can talk more later about it, but thank you

687
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: so much for the offering. I appreciate you. There was

688
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: one more, Yes, you do because we're behind you. Yeah,

689
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,760
Speaker 1: they're surrounding You're being surveilled. Super quick question, doctor Benjamin.

690
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: Have been following your work so so impressive. What would

691
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: you like to be doing that you're not doing right now?

692
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: And you can't say sleeping introverting um. Well, in addition

693
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,240
Speaker 1: to Viral Justice, I just finished another short book that'll

694
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: be out in a year or two on imagination, and

695
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: so it's called Imagination a Manifesto, And I would love

696
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 1: to build out this space of creativity not just with students,

697
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: but with artists and to really do some world building

698
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: with colleagues and with people who I respect. And so

699
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: it would be taking this in a more creative way

700
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: and putting into practice some of the ideas that I'm

701
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: working on on that Imagination book. I want to follow

702
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: up on that one. Yeah, So imagining new worlds and

703
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: practicing imagination something that we do naturally as children and

704
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 1: get kind of trained out of us as we grow.

705
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: Do you have any brief hacks, approaches, tools to just

706
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: get us to flex our imagination muscles more. Yeah, that's

707
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: chapter five. It's called the Imagination Incubator. So there are

708
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: lots of prompts and activities and things because it is

709
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 1: a muscle. It's something that we have to practice, especially

710
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: in collectives, because then our imagination gets challenged. So the

711
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 1: key sort of thread in the book is that imagination

712
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 1: isn't a straightforward good. We are in many ways living

713
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 1: in a eugenics imagination, a techno utopian imagination. We're living

714
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: in imagination not of our own design, and so imaginations

715
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: can be corrupting and limiting. And so part of it

716
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: is when we work in groups. Then we can see

717
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: the edges of our own imagination. We can try to

718
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: broaden the imagination in which all of us can flourish.

719
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: But we can also see the ways that our imagination

720
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: is infected with these really old, deep seated ideas about

721
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:45,959
Speaker 1: human hierarchy and superiority and inferiority. And so the goal

722
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: is to take imagination seriously as a terrain of struggle.

723
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 1: So when I say creativity, I don't just mean the

724
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 1: literal arts. I mean all of the ways in which

725
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 1: we are creators. We shouldn't simply submit to the designs

726
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: that we're inhabiting, and we don't have to wait to

727
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 1: be billionaires to be able to create something new. Like

728
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: I'm a student of Octavia Butler. You know, when you

729
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 1: go and you look at her papers at the Huntington Library,

730
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 1: one of the things you see in her own notes

731
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 1: before you even think about her work that's public, her

732
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 1: stories and so on, you see her notes to herself

733
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 1: in the margins of her notebooks, where she's building her

734
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: own life, like she's saying I will be a New

735
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 1: York Times bestseller. I will have millions of people. This

736
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: is before when she was riding the bus to work

737
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 1: at a potato chip factory, you know. And so part

738
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: of it is her on the one hand, really thinking

739
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 1: about her own agency in her own life. But it's

740
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: also that you see her studying scholarship, You see her

741
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: making notes about the headlines medical sociology, and so she

742
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: ends up writing these stories. But it's based on a

743
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: deep research and understanding, so understanding the porousness across these

744
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: different fields that were gathered here in and to take

745
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: agency back away from these, you know, these overdetermined ideas

746
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: about power and inequality that we inhabit and infect our institutions,

747
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,720
Speaker 1: and beginning to seed something different now yesterday, seed something

748
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: like justice, justice and joy and joy. Oh. I want

749
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: to keep talking, but we can't take justice and joy

750
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: with you. Spread it. Thank you so much, Rouha Benjamin.

751
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: It should be pretty obvious that Ruha and I share

752
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 1: a point of view, and I just find her to

753
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: be healing and grounded and even humble, and how she

754
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,240
Speaker 1: practices what she preaches, even as a Princeton University professor

755
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 1: who moderates panels of south By Southwest. I find her

756
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 1: work to be so relevant because technology is increasingly relevant

757
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: to our experience of democracy, and I want a democracy

758
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: that we also build with people and not for them,

759
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: because the one we're inside right now was built for

760
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: and buy a very small group of people. When Ruha

761
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 1: says that we've been living inside someone else's imagination, She's right.

762
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: We've been living inside this eugenics imagination, and we have

763
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: to reimagine ourselves out of it, democratically and technologically so

764
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 1: we can live inside something better. I'm not just talking

765
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: about widgets and databases and code. I'm talking about social

766
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: technologies that define how we interact with each other and

767
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: even how we envision and understand what democracy is, who

768
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: it serves, and how we experience it. Ruha, She's all

769
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: about prototyping new relationships with technology, with the community, with

770
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: our colleagues, and that investment in relationships, that understanding of

771
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 1: how those relationships relate to power. They're two of the

772
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: core principles of how the citizen and when it comes

773
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 1: to the progress we're trying to make in our workplaces,

774
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: our neighborhoods, our families. Ruha stresses that it's as much

775
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 1: about the process as it is about the outcomes, because

776
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:04,919
Speaker 1: if the ways we're working to improve things don't feel

777
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: good or loving, how can we be sure we're headed

778
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: in the right direction. Maybe by taking our lead from

779
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: Ruha and working to be careful with each other, we

780
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 1: can be dangerous together against these systems too. I really

781
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: hope you check out Race After Technology Abolitionist Tools for

782
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: the New Gym Code, along with Ruha's latest book, Viral Justice,

783
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: How We Grow the World We Won. It's full of

784
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 1: great examples of how we can bring democracy and collective

785
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: decision making to our use of technology and to our

786
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 1: imaginations of the world we can live in. And if

787
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: you'd like to take a stroll through Brihanna's Garden, I

788
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: highly recommend it. Download the AAR Experience for free in

789
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: the app Store or head over to Brihanna's Garden dot

790
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: com and check out the creator, Lady Phoenix's work on Instagram.

791
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 1: She's at Yes Lady Phoenix In the show notes, we

792
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: always have actions you can take after listening to each episode.

793
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 1: We give you options to go inwards and feel into

794
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 1: the material to become more knowledgeable, or to get involved

795
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,879
Speaker 1: with others to make an impact. For this episode, we've

796
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: provided a suggestion for internal reflection that reminds us how

797
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: witnessing others protective acts like standing up for each other

798
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 1: can have large ripple effects. We've also shared two book

799
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: recommendations from Ruha, The New Jim Crow and rest Is Resistance.

800
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: You can find links to both these books and many

801
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: more from past episodes at bookshop dot org, slash shop,

802
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 1: slash how to Citizen, and if you're in the US,

803
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: We've found several ways you can plug into your community

804
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: with your existing skills and volunteer. These groups take the

805
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: guesswork out of how to get involved on issues you

806
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 1: care about. Don't wait, sign up for something, and meet

807
00:49:53,960 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: your neighbors. If you take any of these actions, please

808
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: brag about it online and use the hashtag how to Citizen.

809
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: Also tag our Instagram how to Citizen. I am always

810
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: online and I really do see your messages, so sender.

811
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: You can also visit our website, howard to citizen dot com,

812
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 1: which has all of our shows, full transcripts, actions, and more. Finally,

813
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: see this episode show notes for resources, actions and more

814
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: ways to connect how to Citizen with barrettun Day is

815
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio Podcasts and Row Home Productions. Our

816
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: executive producers are Me barrettun Day, Thurston and Elizabeth Stewart.

817
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: Our lead producer is Ali Graham, Our associate producer is

818
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 1: Donya abdel Hamid. Alex Lewis is our managing producer, and

819
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 1: John Myers is our executive editor and mix engineer. Original

820
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 1: music by Andrew Eapen with additional music by Blue Dot Sessions.

821
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Joel Smith from iHeartRadio and La Labina.

822
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: Next time on how to citizen Building relationships with the

823
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 1: people we're looking to help is vital. But what if

824
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 1: you feel so at odds with the people in your

825
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: community that you can barely talk, let alone work together.

826
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: And what if you also think they are out to

827
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:28,840
Speaker 1: destroy you? Deepening identity based polarization is happening in this country.

828
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 1: The good news is a lot of that is built

829
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: on a lot of false perceptions of the other side.

830
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: And so, for example, on several big issues, Democrats and

831
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: Republicans misperceive the position of the other by fifty percent.

832
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 1: And then you ask how much you think the other

833
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 1: side dehumanizes you, It's off by fifty percent. And so

834
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: what's happening is these metamsperceptions are adding fuel to how

835
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: we think about the other side in this country. Conflict

836
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: resolution expert Tim Phillips tells us how to be in

837
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: community with people we really disagree with, and the risks

838
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: of letting our growing nationwide division persist row home productions