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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Null, and they

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Speaker 1: called me Ben. We are joined as always with our

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Speaker 1: super producer Paul Mission Controlled decond. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know. A quick disclaimer as we

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Speaker 1: get in today's show, fellow conspiracy realist, this episode contains

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Speaker 1: at times graphic descriptions of violent crime, and as such

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Speaker 1: may not be suitable for all listeners. We are not

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Speaker 1: diving into today's story alone. Instead, we are accompanied, very

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Speaker 1: fortunately accompanied by Jeff Keating of filmmaker and podcaster, founder

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Speaker 1: of Doghouse Pictures and the creator of numerous shows and

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Speaker 1: award winning documentaries as such as Living Is Winning as

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Speaker 1: well as his podcast Fight Night. Today, we're excited to

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Speaker 1: have Jeff here in digital person to tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about his newest show, Pee Wee Gaskins

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Speaker 1: Was Not My Friend, which delves deep into the story

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Speaker 1: of South Carolina's most notorious mass murderer and someone many people,

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Speaker 1: surprisingly enough, have have not heard about. Welcome to the show, Jeff,

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for coming, Jeff. What's up? Guys. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for having me. Really appreciate it. Jeff.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting you and I've worked together on a couple

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Speaker 1: of other projects in the past, including the show that

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Speaker 1: Ben mentioned, Fight Night, which is in and of itself,

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Speaker 1: a really cool show about this massive kind of like

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Speaker 1: underworld heist that takes place here in Atlanta where we're

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Speaker 1: all recording. You're in Atlanta native as well. Um, and

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Speaker 1: it takes place on the night of the big Muhammad

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Speaker 1: Ali comeback fight. Um. Yeah, what kind of a different

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Speaker 1: direction for Peewee Gaskins was not my friend? Um, it

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Speaker 1: really is another story of kind of the noir you know,

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Speaker 1: aspects of the South, but very much it's just a

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Speaker 1: story about a truly cold blooded psychopath, um that many

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Speaker 1: people have not heard of. How how would you describe

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Speaker 1: Peewee Gaskins two people that maybe aren't familiar with his

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Speaker 1: twisted legacy? Well, the name itself, because first of all,

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Speaker 1: I was like, you knowl And and Team. I didn't

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Speaker 1: know much about pee Weee myself would rarely even heard of.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a true crime fanatic. I've covered this

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Speaker 1: obviously for you know, fifteen twenty years. As far as

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Speaker 1: just really enjoying stories, now, I tend to lean more

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Speaker 1: towards a mob true crime. That's my I guess if

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Speaker 1: you there's a sub genre within true crime, that's that's

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Speaker 1: my favorite. But I also love serial killers, you know,

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Speaker 1: the show Mine Hunters on Netflix and some other of

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Speaker 1: things like that. I really enjoyed that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: So Peewee. When I first heard about him, the name

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Speaker 1: obviously grabbed me. And then when I found out his

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Speaker 1: stature and how small he was, that was kind of

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Speaker 1: interesting to see. And once I looked into who this

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Speaker 1: guy was a little bit more and seeing again just

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Speaker 1: how small he was and how high pitched his voice was,

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Speaker 1: it was just a weird dichotomy between the violent crimes

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Speaker 1: that he committed and who he was now. Again, oftentimes,

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Speaker 1: you know, somebody could have a big chip on their

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Speaker 1: shoulder or could be pushed to the limit for certain things.

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Speaker 1: But whenever you have somebody so small with such a

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Speaker 1: high pitch voice, you you you usually don't put those

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Speaker 1: two things together. So when I started to understand his

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Speaker 1: crimes and who he was. That was very interesting. And

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Speaker 1: then I realized who this guy was, which was a

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Speaker 1: master manipulator, a trailer park kingpin of sorts, somebody that

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Speaker 1: had traveled with the carnival ring for years and the

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Speaker 1: people that traveled with him seemed to be a good

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Speaker 1: fit for what he was doing. Car thefts, you know,

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Speaker 1: petty thefts, things like that. So very interesting character and

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Speaker 1: just to stay in this realm before we even get

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Speaker 1: into the crimes of Donald Peewee Gaskins, I wanna ask

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Speaker 1: you about a story that was told in the latest

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Speaker 1: episode of the podcast, came out this past Monday. I

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Speaker 1: think it was called Loved Her to Death. And there's

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Speaker 1: a story in there where a former employer of Peewee's

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Speaker 1: tells a story about Peewee strength. And the story is

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Speaker 1: about something with a tire, like a truck tire. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember that? Can you tell us that story? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I do, and and and it's hard to because the

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Speaker 1: employer did mention that, and so I think it had

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Speaker 1: something to do with like physically maybe getting the rim off. Now, again,

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Speaker 1: I'm not a big car guy, you know, one of

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Speaker 1: those some people could change tires. I might changed one before,

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Speaker 1: but I think it had something to do with like

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Speaker 1: getting the rim off of the tire itself using very

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Speaker 1: little tools or minimal tools, and the way that that

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Speaker 1: employer described it, the strength to do that is very,

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Speaker 1: very difficult, even with the tools themselves. So yes, I

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Speaker 1: agree with you, and I don't even know if we

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Speaker 1: put this story in as well. Matt, but he also

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Speaker 1: was known to like lift huge tons or things over

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Speaker 1: his head, so his strength was massive especially for him.

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Speaker 1: He also had experience with a great experience with automobiles

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Speaker 1: in general, right, he had familiarity. He also trained himself

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Speaker 1: to have a very powerful karate child, that's right, by

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Speaker 1: by basically using the metal end of his bed and

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Speaker 1: hitting it repeatedly, and I mean hundreds or thousands of

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Speaker 1: times to build up I guess that muscle or whatever

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Speaker 1: it was. I think we may even cover that story

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Speaker 1: more a little bit in this upcoming episode. But but yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then again, guys, you know you've got to imagine

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Speaker 1: you're in reform school and all these things. Early on,

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Speaker 1: you're probably beat up for your status, so you're you're

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Speaker 1: just building a toughness. A nail's tough exterior throughout your

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Speaker 1: whole life, you know, because of again your environment. You

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Speaker 1: know what you were um exposed to early on, the beatings,

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Speaker 1: all of that stuff. This guy was no joke. I

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Speaker 1: want to expand on the what you brought up, Matt,

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Speaker 1: the idea of anecdote here, Jeff. In the course of

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Speaker 1: the show, the listener encounters multiple people who have had

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Speaker 1: personal experience with Gaskins, and one thing that's fascinating before

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Speaker 1: we even get to the first episode, just overall, one

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Speaker 1: thing it was fascinating to me is that many of

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Speaker 1: these people come to some surprising agreements about the nature

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Speaker 1: of gaskins character. And one thing that really stood out was,

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Speaker 1: oddly enough, people would talk about how he was at

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Speaker 1: times apparently charming and charismatic, you know, and some folks

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Speaker 1: said he was, you know, a monster and human flesh,

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Speaker 1: and other folks said that they said, like he was

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Speaker 1: actually he could seem really friendly if you didn't know

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Speaker 1: who you were talking to, and that because that surprised me,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you in the course of this story,

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Speaker 1: what surprised you. Were there any things that really really

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Speaker 1: surprised you about the way people talked about Gaskins or

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Speaker 1: his interactions. Well, here's what I do again. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people approach stories in different ways. I'm not an

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter, and there's a lot of people that do

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Speaker 1: true crime that have either that background or approach it

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Speaker 1: that way. I approach it more of a story that

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in. I'm a guide for the audience. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: I have some unknown things that come my way that

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Speaker 1: I just want to explore that I think the audience

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Speaker 1: will be interested in as well. And so with this

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Speaker 1: particular guy in this case, when I first heard about it,

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Speaker 1: and you, guys, I'm sure imagine this as well, it's like,

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Speaker 1: this is a serial killer or a mass murderer. How

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Speaker 1: how can you fall for this behavior whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: But then you hear over the past of many of

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Speaker 1: these famous serial killers or mass murders, how charming they are,

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Speaker 1: how they can ingratiate themselves into communities or families or

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Speaker 1: groups or whatever it is. And so I thought, I

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Speaker 1: put myself back in these guys shoes years ago, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, you know, there's no way you would

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Speaker 1: fall for that. But I was never in front of

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Speaker 1: this guy. I was never um faced with his with

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Speaker 1: his charm or manipulation or the power of this guy

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Speaker 1: staring at you from across the table, or you know,

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Speaker 1: making a deal with you, whatever it was. So you

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Speaker 1: think it may be one way, but you've never faced

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Speaker 1: this guy personally, and so as much as I tried

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Speaker 1: to imagine that, I really had to listen to all

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Speaker 1: these people that actually had faced and come in contact

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Speaker 1: with him and realize, Man, this guy was a snake charmer.

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Speaker 1: This guy was a manipulator. And and you may think

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Speaker 1: that you could um fight his uh you know, charming abilities,

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Speaker 1: but most oftentimes you could not. Can't out slither a snake, right,

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Speaker 1: This is something I thought a lot about with the

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Speaker 1: very first episode, where you do something fascinating this This

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Speaker 1: isn't a spoiler. We'll hear it, folks as soon as

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Speaker 1: you tune in. We don't start in a linear way, right,

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Speaker 1: We don't start at Gaskin's birth or his childhood or

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Speaker 1: his first crime, but with another story that takes place

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Speaker 1: while Gaskin is already incarcerated. What what inspired you to

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Speaker 1: approach it from this angle particularly, we needed to basically

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Speaker 1: have a set up for the show of one of

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Speaker 1: the main murders, which you see in that first one

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Speaker 1: is Rudolph Tyner and how it really connects to all

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Speaker 1: of the past murders and the unwitning accessory of that

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Speaker 1: last murder, and how he or she is going to

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Speaker 1: play a part in this entire podcast. So it was

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Speaker 1: unusual the way we did it. It's almost kind of

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Speaker 1: like a standalone story, but we felt to book in

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Speaker 1: this podcast with that particular crime and murder, and as

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Speaker 1: you'll see at the very end, how it all plays out.

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Speaker 1: It was the perfect way to tie it all in.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. I think it's probably best left

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Speaker 1: for folks to experience this themselves without going into the

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Speaker 1: details of this crime. But let's just suffice it to

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Speaker 1: say that, uh Gaskins, in a very very clever way,

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Speaker 1: orchestrates essentially a hit on a man that he doesn't

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Speaker 1: like from within prison. And that's a key, I think

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Speaker 1: to Gaskin's personality a man that he doesn't like. Gaskins

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Speaker 1: had a code. He he didn't He wasn't like other

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Speaker 1: serial killers who killed out of some perverse fetish or

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Speaker 1: some sort of like drive to just feed this hunger.

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Speaker 1: He was more like a mafiosa or something he'd be

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Speaker 1: bumped people off who he didn't feel met his standards

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Speaker 1: or in some way, you know, had wronged him, or

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Speaker 1: he wanted to get rid of a rival. Can you

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about, you know, his personal

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Speaker 1: code and what are some of the things that might

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Speaker 1: have put you or I on Peewee's hit list Before

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Speaker 1: I get to that. It's a good question. You tapped

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Speaker 1: on something. I'm a big fan of subcultures. So like

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Speaker 1: in Fight Night, the subculture was hustlers of the early

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Speaker 1: seventies in in Atlanta and then traveling you know, up

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Speaker 1: to New York and down to Miami, but really getting

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Speaker 1: into the world and the subculture of these hustlers. So

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Speaker 1: in this particular story, it's basically trailer park kingpins and

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Speaker 1: and traveling carnivals and the people that were in these

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Speaker 1: traveling carnivals and the type of work environment that they

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Speaker 1: were in the way they became family in an unusual way.

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Speaker 1: So so that was interesting for me to explore that.

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Speaker 1: And then Peewee's relationship to that. Noel was basically his

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Speaker 1: code was a couple of things. Betrayal was something that

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Speaker 1: he despised, I think the most out of anything one

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Speaker 1: of his codes are. Part of his codes was you

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Speaker 1: don't talk outside the circle, and that was I love

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Speaker 1: this phrase. I'm not sure if Jim are one of

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Speaker 1: our main characters or Pee Wee came up with this,

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Speaker 1: but it was called jaw in you don't you don't

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Speaker 1: go jawing to the police or to other members in

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Speaker 1: the community. And I assume that means you know, speak

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Speaker 1: out of turn. So so jowen was one of the

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Speaker 1: big things of his code. Another thing Noel that was

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Speaker 1: interesting was he was a protector supposedly of children and

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Speaker 1: Now again he goes on to kill some of these

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Speaker 1: especially women. But for some reason there was a protector side.

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Speaker 1: So profanity was a big thing I heard. He rarely, ever,

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Speaker 1: maybe in front of him, but specifically in front of children.

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Speaker 1: That was another part of his code. But the biggest

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Speaker 1: one knowal I think would be the betrayal meaning do

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Speaker 1: not cross him, and and specifically the jaw and don't

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Speaker 1: talk about me or my crimes or what we're doing

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Speaker 1: to anybody else. You know, it's interesting you say that, Jeff,

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Speaker 1: because we see some of those I guess a way

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Speaker 1: to vastly understated is we see some of those moral

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Speaker 1: dichotomies or contradictions in a lot of extremely disturbed people,

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Speaker 1: uh Annie in Misery, right, who also hates cursing, and

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Speaker 1: Stephen King's Misery. This leads me to think, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: someone who's a mass murder or serial killer. Another interesting

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Speaker 1: thing is that Gaskins, like other folks like Henry Lee

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Speaker 1: Lucas and so I, was prone to bouts of embellishments, exaggeration,

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Speaker 1: and investigators suspect in many case, in some cases outright lying.

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Speaker 1: Uh Before he was put to death by the State

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Speaker 1: of South Carolina back about fifty eight years old, he

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Speaker 1: had he made statements claiming, you know, I've committed many

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Speaker 1: more murders. I've committed more than a hundred murders, right,

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Speaker 1: How how many do how? It's a very strange I mean,

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Speaker 1: usually psychologists say that's a push for notoriety. But my

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Speaker 1: question for you is, when you were speaking with people

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Speaker 1: familiar with the case, how how much weight do investigators

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Speaker 1: person you speak with who says everybody who says. When

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Speaker 1: as Australia to talk about UH, to talk about Gascon's crimes,

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Speaker 1: they kept trying to get him to like agree with

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Speaker 1: these higher numbers, and he refused to. So what's the truth?

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Speaker 1: Do we know or will we ever know? We don't know.

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Speaker 1: And that's what I find so fascinating. And I think

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Speaker 1: with any of these true crime cases, unless maybe you've

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Speaker 1: got a hundred witnesses that see exactly what's going on,

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Speaker 1: you have forensics evidence, you have witnesses, you have investigators,

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Speaker 1: but unless you're actually there for these murder themselves, we

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Speaker 1: just don't know. So I would say ben as a whole,

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Speaker 1: that most people thought it came in around eleven or

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Speaker 1: twelve murders, and that the legend of all those additional

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Speaker 1: murders was us that of sometimes people talking of reporters

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Speaker 1: covering stories, of people gossiping around a community, and as

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Speaker 1: you know, things grow from there. So I would say,

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Speaker 1: as a whole, the people that we talked to and

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Speaker 1: the investigators and attorneys and prosecutor stuff, felt it was

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Speaker 1: around a dozen and the rest became legend. Now again,

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Speaker 1: the legend can sometimes become so powerful and become so youthful,

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Speaker 1: even for a serial killer as well, But we don't know, Ben,

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Speaker 1: and I always find that a good place to rest

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Speaker 1: because it allows us to examine that the evidence ourselves

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Speaker 1: and make a decision based on what we hear. You know,

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Speaker 1: what do we think, you know, based on all this

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Speaker 1: stuff and these stories and this transcripts and stuff, where

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Speaker 1: do we think the truth lies? You know? If the

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Speaker 1: other forgive my my ignorance here, Jeff, but I I

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Speaker 1: am imagined that some of those legendary things, or maybe

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Speaker 1: even things that actually happened that just can't be proven,

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Speaker 1: occurred when he was traveling with you know, the carnival

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Speaker 1: or you know something, some things occurred that we just

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Speaker 1: if you thought maybe that was even a possibility. I

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Speaker 1: think that's very fair to say, Matt, because again, if

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Speaker 1: you're talking about somebody that can do this once and

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Speaker 1: has been accused and convicted of these crimes and then

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Speaker 1: ultimately executed, which we know he was we don't know

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Speaker 1: what he was doing all the time or things that

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Speaker 1: could have been left. And you know, if you're having

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Speaker 1: these bodies buried in burial fields in one place, what's

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Speaker 1: going on somewhere else? And we don't know if he

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Speaker 1: gets angry at one guy that somebody didn't cover years ago.

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Speaker 1: So I would assume guys, wouldn't you imagine that there's

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Speaker 1: cases like that all over the country in the world.

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Speaker 1: We're just gonna take a little break here a word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsor, but will be right back, and we're back. Jeffy.

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Speaker 1: We talked to a good bit already about his kind

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Speaker 1: of outsized, uh mythical persona that really was this kind

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Speaker 1: of disconnect from his actual stature and like the like

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Speaker 1: he said, it's kind of like high pitched voice, which

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Speaker 1: I think probably caused a lot of people to underestimate him. Um,

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Speaker 1: and he was also a master manipulator, and that he

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Speaker 1: was even able to kind of get the cops off

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Speaker 1: his trail literally just like by kind of gives throwing

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Speaker 1: them this like diversion, like there's a there's a part

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Speaker 1: where he's like working under a truck or something and

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Speaker 1: the cops looking for him in connection to him a disappearance,

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Speaker 1: and he just says, no, Peewee Gascon's here, basically exactly. Yeah. Literally,

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Speaker 1: it's just like the most Basically, he just had this confidence.

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Speaker 1: I think that was infectious, and I think that's what

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Speaker 1: led to this sort of cult of personality you see

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Speaker 1: with this weird ragtag band of characters that he sort

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Speaker 1: of had under his way. He almost is this kind

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Speaker 1: of weird cult leader figure in some ways. Um. But

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Speaker 1: your friend uh and also um, someone who is a

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Speaker 1: very important part of the story. Dr Jim Batty had

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Speaker 1: a really interesting relationship with Peewee he both academically and personally. Um.

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Speaker 1: And he really gives an incredible perspective on a lot

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Speaker 1: of these stories and the podcast. Can you speak a

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Speaker 1: little bit about how you got connected up with Dr

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Speaker 1: Batty and what their relationship was. Yes, So, a colleague

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Speaker 1: of mine and good friend, Courtney Dufreeze knew the Batty

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Speaker 1: family and suggested, based on the fact that he knew Jim,

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Speaker 1: Dr Batty had done all these interviews with Pee Wee,

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Speaker 1: maybe a great podcast and a great way to explore

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Speaker 1: a different angle of somebody that actually sat across the

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Speaker 1: table from him for Dred interviews, and so I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: this would be, first of all, just a fascinating guy

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Speaker 1: to talk to. So when I was able to finally

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Speaker 1: meet Jim and his wife, Anita, who's in the podcast

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Speaker 1: as well, I really was interested and wanted to explore

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Speaker 1: the story of two different men, both who grew up

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Speaker 1: very close to each other geographically. I think it was

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Speaker 1: eighty miles apart, Both who were very close in age.

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Speaker 1: I think they were two to three years apart. Both

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Speaker 1: who had worked in some of the same places, even

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Speaker 1: though at different times, a Campbell suit factory that they

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Speaker 1: came to know once those interviews started, and how they

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Speaker 1: ended up with such different lives again, jim family manned

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Speaker 1: uh literary professor, ordained minister, and then pee Wee Gaskins

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Speaker 1: a mass murderer family as well. But you know, six

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Speaker 1: different wives if I'm not mistaken, not sure how many kids,

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Speaker 1: but he had a few. And it drew me to

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I'm always interested in exploring,

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Speaker 1: which is nature or versus nurture. So Jim has this beautiful,

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Speaker 1: lovely upbringing. Pee Wee supposedly had a very rough, tough childhood,

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Speaker 1: maybe some abuse, some sexual abuse that happened to him.

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Speaker 1: So Jim wanted to explore this as well as did I.

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Speaker 1: If if Peewee's upbringing is different, is if he's loved

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Speaker 1: as a child, if he you know, is not sent

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Speaker 1: to these tough reform school early on, if he's given

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Speaker 1: a full education, does he wind up different? And and

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Speaker 1: I always I'm fascinated and exploring that question. I'm so

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Speaker 1: glad you see that, Jeff, because this leads us to

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Speaker 1: another commonality that experts perceive in mass murderers, uh, serial

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Speaker 1: criminal sexual assaulters in the like, which is that, uh

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Speaker 1: many many serial murders seem to have these horrific childhoods. Right,

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Speaker 1: and we know that Gaskin's criminal career started at a

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Speaker 1: very young age with a trouble trio they called themselves,

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Speaker 1: I think somewhere in like eleven to thirteen years old. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I have a two part question, but but it's

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Speaker 1: a tough question to really get our minds around. I

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Speaker 1: don't know where will fall on the on the nature

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Speaker 1: versus nurture debate, but it felt like some of the

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Speaker 1: people that you encounter in the course of your journey

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Speaker 1: have come to a conclusion that some folks are simply

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Speaker 1: born and evil. Did you run into when you're talking

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Speaker 1: with people? Did anybody bring up this nature versus nurture argument?

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Speaker 1: And if so, how did they approach it? How did

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Speaker 1: they grapple with this? Well? I feel Jim definitely felt

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Speaker 1: there was a what's the right word. I feel like

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Speaker 1: Jim thought that there was a direct core correlation between

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Speaker 1: the two and he felt pretty strongly that if p

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Speaker 1: we had a loving family or different upbringing, that his

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Speaker 1: life would have been different. I feel some of the

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Speaker 1: reporters and some of the I don't know if we

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Speaker 1: did any psychologist, but I feel there was some other

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Speaker 1: people that felt the same way Jim did. There may

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Speaker 1: have been a couple of people that leaned towards born evil,

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Speaker 1: but I really think after they looked at the whole life,

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Speaker 1: that it was just this was an evil man and

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Speaker 1: they couldn't put their fingers on exactly where that all began.

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Speaker 1: When you go back to your first part of the question,

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Speaker 1: been my thought is from the fifteen twenty thirty years

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Speaker 1: of exploring these stories, I can't find one serial killer

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Speaker 1: or murderer did didn't have a bad upbringing. I'm still

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Speaker 1: trying to find that one. In fact, I was just

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Speaker 1: laughing about this the other day. The one movie I

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Speaker 1: think it was with Nicolas Cage and it was called

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Speaker 1: eight Millimeter, was a thing about that. And ultimately, at

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Speaker 1: the end, even though he was in this dark, crazy world,

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Speaker 1: the antagonist of the movie The Killer says, I had

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Speaker 1: a loving and and I didn't believe it. It ruined

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Speaker 1: the movie for me because I was like, No, every

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Speaker 1: study we've explored has pointed to a traumatic past. It

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Speaker 1: felt like the script writer said, this is the twist,

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Speaker 1: you know, And I think it felt that way. I

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Speaker 1: agree with you if you felt that way, because those

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Speaker 1: that commonality is so it occurs at such a distressingly

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Speaker 1: frequent level, you know. I I also am trying to

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Speaker 1: I've been trying to find someone who had like a

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Speaker 1: happy home life quote unquote whatever that means. And I

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Speaker 1: think you're on the money there, Jeff. And listen, trauma

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Speaker 1: is a very serious thing, guy. And whether it be war,

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Speaker 1: whether it be abuse as a child, um, you know, psychological,

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Speaker 1: it could be physical or mental, but especially early on

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Speaker 1: and then again I think most scientists or doctors will

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Speaker 1: agree with this. When you have something traumatic, it could

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Speaker 1: affect your life from there on out. Either you have

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Speaker 1: to deal with it and you have to recover from it,

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Speaker 1: or it can affect your behavior moving forward. And so

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Speaker 1: if you're really having you know, beatings or mental abuse

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Speaker 1: or whatever it may be early on, I can see

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Speaker 1: how that affects the line to these stories of these

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Speaker 1: mass murderers and serial killers. Well, you know. And again,

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Speaker 1: I keep going back to the contradictions of Peewee's life

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Speaker 1: because there are a lot of stories where he seems

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Speaker 1: to be he seems to do something out of just

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Speaker 1: the kindness of his heart for someone. In this latest episode,

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Speaker 1: there's a story about an elderly woman that comes to

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Speaker 1: him with a problem with her transmission, and like, it's

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Speaker 1: incredible what Pee Wee ends up doing? Could you just

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Speaker 1: tell that? Because I think that's really like speaking to

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Speaker 1: when we're talking about good versus bad, versus nature and nurture.

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Speaker 1: Like the fact that this guy who has done these

427
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 1: horrible things we know of already and this elderly woman

428
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,719
Speaker 1: says I need help with my transmission, what does he do?

429
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: He ends up stealing a transmission from a car that

430
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: is just like hers, and then putting that transmission into

431
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 1: her car, fixing it for this lovely senior citizen. I

432
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: think he barely charged her anything, you know, maybe a

433
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: few bucks. But that's that's such a great example because

434
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: and and no, you were talking about this earlier about

435
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: moral code. This moral code is so gray. It's like

436
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,959
Speaker 1: he does something illegal to do something good. And I

437
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: think they're the balance of pee Wee. And many of

438
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: his actions showed that throughout his life. So he felt, hey,

439
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do what I need to to help this lady,

440
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 1: even though it's gonna be you know, in illegal activity

441
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: or taking from somebody else. And pee Wee was notorious

442
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 1: for deeds and behaviors like that. Oh you know. And

443
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: there's just one last story, guys, and I'll stop talking

444
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: about this. There's Um, a young woman who moves in

445
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: with him and his wife at the time. I can't

446
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: remember exactly which wife it was. I'm so sorry I

447
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 1: can't recall that right now, Jeff. But um a young

448
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: woman who moves in with a very tiny child that's

449
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: super sick, Like the child is extremely sick. But pee

450
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,479
Speaker 1: Wee ends up using his funds and his time and

451
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: effort to nurse that child like back to health. Um

452
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: and it's not his child, it's just some it's another

453
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: woman's child. And to me that is so strange and

454
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,360
Speaker 1: and and it does make me wonder about if it's

455
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: him doing something getting all psychologists here, doing something for

456
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: another child that maybe wasn't done for him, or like

457
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: a kindness shown to another child that wasn't done for him.

458
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: But he's also a child killer. So anyway, my brain

459
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: is exploding thinking about all of that. I don't even

460
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: know I have a question here for you. Well, it's hard.

461
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: It's hard to wrap your head around all of those stories.

462
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: So that's a good example. There's other ones that will

463
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: let the audience here within the podcast where he literally

464
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: you know, cares for babies or toddler's or you know,

465
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: young children, but a lot of these people or young

466
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: babies or children become his victims. So it's really hard

467
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: to wrap your head around all of this. And again

468
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: we're not in this world of you know, underneath this

469
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: trailer part Kingpin and this guy that was with people

470
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: working in the traveling carnivals who I hear have transient

471
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: lives to begin with, and maybe not have the connection

472
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: to family except for the people working in the carnivals themselves.

473
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: So it's hard to understand this sometimes, Matt, it really is.

474
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: It is, But I also think there's a lot of parallels.

475
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: And one of my first questions I mentioned, I really

476
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: see a connect action between him and like the mafia,

477
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: like the code of Omerta. You know, like your your

478
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: family until the moment you break that code and then

479
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: you're dead to me, literally and and figuratively. Um And

480
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: I people probably stick of hearing about it, but you know,

481
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: The Sopranos is one of my favorite shows, and I

482
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: think Tony Soprano is a really interesting antihero because he

483
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: nurtures so many people while also on the other side,

484
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: ruining so many lives. Um And he you know, he

485
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: will be this advocate for people until they crossed him

486
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: in the wrong way, and then he won't think twice

487
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: because he feels justified in doing it because they broke

488
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: the code. Um and And to me, that's that's what

489
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: pee he's doing. Um. He's obviously a terrible person, but

490
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: also has this you know, nurturing side. He's a very

491
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: complex character. I think you know, and he needs to

492
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: retain the power and authority and also avoid prison. So

493
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: there's many things that pee Wee was constantly doing within

494
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: these relationships that were important to him. I've got to

495
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: maintain my power. If somebody knows about a crime that

496
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: I've committed, I am going to implicate them in that

497
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: crime so that they become an accessory. He was brilliant

498
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: at that. Okay, fine, you're gonna jaw about me, I'm

499
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: gonna take you down with me. And so that was

500
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: something that was constantly thinking about. That plays into our

501
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: unwitting accessory in our story, and how pee Wee pounced

502
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: on weaknesses of people use them to leverage things that

503
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: he needed within his authority and within the power circles

504
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: that he ruled. So that was very important Old and

505
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: how he used that behavior. I think you know to

506
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: that point that that is one of the primary explanations

507
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: for how UH person's criminal career like this could last

508
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: so long. You know, he's in and out of the system,

509
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: but he keeps slipping away. I do want to go

510
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: back to the conversation you and Matt were having, Jeff,

511
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: because I think I think it really raises an important

512
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: point for storytelling overall as well, which is maybe a

513
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: little bit abstract, but one thing that is always at

514
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: the front of my mind when we're exploring violent tales

515
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: things of this nature on on our show on Stuffing.

516
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: What you know is how to accurately depict a crime,

517
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: a criminal or a conspiracy without glorifying the villains or

518
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: exploiting the tragedies of the victims and your your work,

519
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: I think threads this line perfectly. You don't shy away

520
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: from Gascon's crimes, and you shouldn't, but you're also pointing

521
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: out these other things, these things that we've called contradictions,

522
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 1: and you're giving voice to the survivors, you know, the investigators,

523
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: people involved and more. How how do you, as a

524
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: creator navigate that line between like telling this story with

525
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: the accuracy and fullness that deserves, while also making space

526
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: for the human lives that have been impacted by this criminal.

527
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: We made a conscious effort early on my writing team,

528
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: which was Jim Roberts, Courtney to Freeze and Terry James,

529
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: and we knew that we wanted to shy away from

530
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: going too deep into the gory details and really be

531
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: able to focus on the victim's story. We felt it

532
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: was important that the audience get to know these families,

533
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: young girls, toddler's whoever might have been a victim, so

534
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: they understand the seriousness of these crimes and the lives

535
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: that Pee Wee was able to stuff out. And again,

536
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: we were conscious as we were writing and putting this

537
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: together trying to get the balance because some of these

538
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: are obviously very scary stories, and we wanted to pull

539
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: the audience in to the visual scenes that were happening,

540
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: but obviously not focused too much obviously on the act itself,

541
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: but on the result, which was the victims and the

542
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: lives that were ruined. Yeah, we'll put And I just

543
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: want to say personally, I appreciated that, and I found

544
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: it impressive. UM, And I think that's something that will

545
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: uh that that a lot of people who listen to

546
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: the show are going to recognize. So I guess that's

547
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: less of a question than a little bit of fan mail.

548
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: Sorry about that, Job's okay, we'll take somethingmail. We've actually

549
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: got some responses that have UM talked about that as well,

550
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: And you know, Nolan, I discuss this. You know, with

551
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: these true crime podcasts, there are topics and things that

552
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: the audience likes to hear. We wanted to make sure

553
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: that we covered those topics, but there was deep dives

554
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: obviously that we wanted to explore as well. Again, personally,

555
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: I loved the subculture which I thought the audience would like,

556
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: which was the trailer parks and the traveling carnivals. Then

557
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: you got on Jim side, who's doing these interviews. You've

558
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: got a literary professor across the table from a mass murderer.

559
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: And so again the balance between these personalities, how they

560
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:28,720
Speaker 1: perceived life, how they perceived family, how they perceived relationships,

561
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: was fascinating to me. So I really wanted to get

562
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: into the gym and pee wee story, and I thought

563
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: the audience would really enjoy that because it's a different

564
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: angle two pee wee gascons that people had heard. I mean,

565
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: no one heard this story before, because again Jim hadn't

566
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: really publicly talked about these fifty plus interviews he had.

567
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 1: I thought the audience would love that. Your your audience

568
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: does love that. Jim and Anita, they're they're fantastic in

569
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: the show. I want to ask you about somebody who

570
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,359
Speaker 1: would have said I think and maybe correct me if

571
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 1: I'm wrong here. Who would have said, Peewee Gaskins is

572
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: my friend A man named Walter Neely, Can you just

573
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about that character who Walter

574
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: is a tough one? So I will say you could

575
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: define Walter as Peewee's friend and right hand man. I

576
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: think for a stretch Walter would say that Peewee is

577
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: his best friend. And again I just wasn't there in

578
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: these relationships. But I feel like pee Wee knew who

579
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 1: Walter was. A slower guy, potentially a patsy, somebody who

580
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: he could possibly push some of these crimes and convictions

581
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: on at some point, A guy he knew that may

582
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: not be mentally tough enough if things came down to

583
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: the wire where he could rely on him. But he

584
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 1: had some almost like savant like abilities he did he did.

585
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: I mean, especially when you're talking about again, you know,

586
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: petty crimes, uh, stealing Dealon's cars exactly mechanically cars, and

587
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 1: it just a master of that. So I mean, again,

588
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: when we always talk about intelligence, I mean, you know

589
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,720
Speaker 1: we're talking about book smarts and we're talking about street smarts.

590
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: I mean, Walter had some definite intelligence to him. He

591
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: just may have not been the smartest guy in the

592
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: room when you're talking about walking that fine line of life,

593
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: if that's a good way to put it. Some ways,

594
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 1: he reminds, I mean, this is maybe a little off,

595
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: but just immediately when his character was introduced, Um, he

596
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 1: reminds me of the Lenny character to the George character.

597
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: Perfect examblnol of Mison men right, perfect example because George

598
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: is sort of the swindler, hustler kind of guy, and

599
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: Lenny is sort of his sidekick who he's sort of

600
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: like bring, is along for the ride and sort of

601
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: like takes advantage of um and then obviously things go

602
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: very badly as as also it ends up being the

603
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: case in this story. Um. But I think that relationship

604
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: is fascinating because there is some love there, true real

605
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: love and camaraderie, but also it's a very functional relationship.

606
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 1: I agree. And it's such a great piece of literature

607
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: that you pointed out, And that is one question. Now

608
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 1: that you point that out and all that I wish

609
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: I would have asked Jim about that specific piece of

610
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:36,280
Speaker 1: literature and the comparison between George and Lenny and Peewee

611
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 1: and Walter. I would be fascinating to hear of professor

612
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 1: weigh in on that, wouldn't it? Yeah? Absolutely, and will

613
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: pause for a word from our sponsors, then return with

614
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: more from Jeff Keating. Hey, we're back, Jeff. I want

615
00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: to ask you about the uh, the women in in

616
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: Pee Wee's life. You you mentioned earlier that he had

617
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 1: five I think I think it was six wives in total.

618
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: But many times when he did have a spouse and

619
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: they were living together, the situation, the living situation would

620
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: be odd where there would be another person living with

621
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: them who was also a love interest, or he would

622
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: he would find a new love and get married and

623
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 1: the ex wife would still live in the same place

624
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,240
Speaker 1: where he was living. There's just a lot of weird

625
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: situations going on with him and and the women in

626
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: his life. I just wonder if there's if you saw

627
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: any patterns there, if there's any stories you'd like to

628
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: tell us about that crazy situation. And here's something where

629
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: I think Peevie didn't maybe used the best uh his

630
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: wits or best sense about him. He's got all these

631
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: different relationships and women floating everywhere. Two wives, I mean,

632
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 1: I think, if I remember this correctly, he was married

633
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: to a few women at the same time illegally, like

634
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: he just goes down and gets another marriage license and

635
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: and and so he may call them X because maybe

636
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 1: they're living someone else. But I know there was several

637
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: occasions where he had one or two women living in

638
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: his house or trailer park with him at the same time.

639
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: But peewee, you gotta know there's gonna be a lot

640
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: of jowl in if you do that, there's gonna be

641
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: a lot of talk and gossip. So that was one

642
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: thing that I kind of giggled about if you're trying

643
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: to keep a close knit circle. And maybe again he

644
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: uses the power and the influence and the manipulation and

645
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: the fact that he's financially taking care of all these

646
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: people to control that situation. But where it's gonna get out, Yeah,

647
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: And and my understanding is that many of these women

648
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 1: were significantly younger than him, between ten twenty years sometimes

649
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: younger than him. Um so I can, I can only

650
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's it's weird. Goes back to the

651
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 1: contradiction thing that but because that's a good point, Matt,

652
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: they were. And so again, when you've got that age gap,

653
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: the power to control and manipulate and especially maybe even

654
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: look up to him as a father figure. I can

655
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: see where that can he feels like he could control

656
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 1: that situation. But again, I just don't know if he

657
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: thought that clearly about all of this stuff, because that's

658
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: one thing, you know, again, when you have so many

659
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: different relationships going on, relationships are tough for even the

660
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: most normal of us. Uh So, anyway, it's funny. I

661
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: think it goes to the heavily impulsive, reactive nature of

662
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 1: his mind. One thing that always stands out is the

663
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: description of how he would have intrusive thoughts. That's what

664
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: a psychologists call him, but he doesn't call them that, right,

665
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,959
Speaker 1: He calls them what is it, Jeff, bothersome? He says,

666
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 1: I have these bothersome thoughts. Yes, that's one of the

667
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 1: words I think he used. That's another question that comes

668
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: up with many of these cases. Clearly there's a capability

669
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 1: for forethought right. Clearly there's a capable ability for planning right,

670
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 1: implicating somebody else, making them an accomplice to avoid to

671
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 1: avoid drawing right, or the threat thereof. But in your

672
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: from your perspective, how much of his how many of

673
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: his crimes were like planned in advanced versus just those

674
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: reactions of of something misfiring in his mind. I feel

675
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 1: like Peewee's reaction to jawing and betrayal may not have

676
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: triggered these decks and crimes initially, Like my guess is

677
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: they didn't happen like an impulse reaction, but they triggered

678
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 1: something in Peewee's mind like this guy or this man

679
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 1: or this child is going to go down, And so

680
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 1: the plans started to churn in his mind. And I

681
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: feel at that point, Ben there was no coming back

682
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 1: from him, like I would you know, one of the

683
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: questions I would love to ask Peewee if he was

684
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: still alive, was hey, did anybody walk away from betraying

685
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: or drawing from you? You know? I mean, I think

686
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: there's a couple out there that maybe he just never

687
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: had a chance to get to. But if he was

688
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 1: ever able to walk back that impulsive thought that he

689
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,800
Speaker 1: ultimately normally acted on, and it was probably a point

690
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: of pride for him not to do that, which makes

691
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: even more or maybe even that code as well been

692
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: like you know, no, this is part of the code,

693
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,280
Speaker 1: and and and this has to happen now and maybe

694
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: you know same with other um criminal inter like you

695
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: have to set an example, right, Like if I let

696
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,439
Speaker 1: this guy go and do this, what is everybody else

697
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: going to do to me? I think that's a common

698
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: theme and a lot of criminal organizations. I want to

699
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: give a quick example of the kinds of things that

700
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: an associate maybe john about, just so we we have

701
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: a picture here. Um, you speak to someone named Margaret

702
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: O'Shea who tells a story about one of like one

703
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: of the schemes basically that Pee had come up with.

704
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: So for a time, he would be working at a

705
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: tobacco plantation or or in a tobacco field, and he

706
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: and usually an associate would like clear all the tobacco

707
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: that was stored up in a farm that had been cultivated,

708
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,399
Speaker 1: they cleared out of the or like take it away

709
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: basically to go sell it to somebody else, right correct,

710
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 1: And then they'd set the barn on fire. They would

711
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: make the money off of that crop, but then the

712
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 1: insurance company would pay the plantation owner or the tobacco

713
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: owner for that crop. So he basically doubled the money

714
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: and the value of that tobacco by stealing it and

715
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: and arson Um, so you know he's got an associate

716
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 1: working with him on that. So if that associate goes

717
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: John at a local let's same bar or something telling

718
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 1: people about it, then he's implicated in a serious crime.

719
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: So it's just I just want to give an example.

720
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: There are there any other examples of kind of the

721
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: schemes that he would get up to. Yeah, and let's

722
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: use an example in one of the murders, because I

723
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 1: think it said I won't go into the names of

724
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 1: the murder, so the audience gonna join. But there's one

725
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 1: murder that comes up where he basically because somebody has

726
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 1: asked him to do a hit or or at least

727
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: two quiet somebody is a better way to put it.

728
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: But it turns into a murder, and he brings these

729
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 1: people with him, makes them look at the dead body,

730
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 1: and basically says to him, you are now an accessory,

731
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: and if you go jaw into anybody else, you're going.

732
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 1: First of all, I'll kill you. Let me just start

733
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: with that. But even if for some reason you get

734
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 1: away from like clutches and I get you know, put down,

735
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: you're going down with me, which, by the way, ultimately happens.

736
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, he's he's going to tie you up in

737
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: all of this, Matt, He's gonna tie you up. Man.

738
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: You ain't getting out Peewee's web. Oh good I would.

739
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: That's a very gritty sequel to Charlotte's Web. I think

740
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 1: the technically different thematic because Charlotte was so loving and

741
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: nice to Wilbur and pee Wee. Oh my goodness. No, no, no,

742
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: So right now, I just in full disclosure as we

743
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: are recording this interview, Uh, I don't know how the

744
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: story fully ends. We're not to the last episode yet,

745
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: so everybody you should know that. Uh, Jeff did not

746
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: give us give us too many spoilers. So we're listening

747
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: right along with you as as this show comes out.

748
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: And one of the questions that I really wanted to

749
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: ask you is what lessons do do we hope people

750
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: can take from this narrative? And what what can this

751
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 1: story tell us? How can because when I listened to this,

752
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: one of the things that struck me is this is

753
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: this is important, This is informative. People should know the

754
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: full story right of something that for many people may

755
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: have just been a headline right in their local news.

756
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 1: So what what do you think people can take from

757
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: this show? And how can knowing the full breadth of

758
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: this story, Uh, how can it help authorities? How can

759
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: it educate the public going forward? I think one of

760
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: Jim's children, and I just can't remember who said it

761
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: right now, spoke to that specifically. And Jim was talking

762
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: to a son about this, how there are so many people,

763
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: especially young people out in the world. You don't know

764
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: what's going on with them. It could be homeless, it

765
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:52,479
Speaker 1: could be family life, it could be and he used

766
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: the specific words. I hope it comes to me outlayers.

767
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: Maybe the word he used, um, but it was even

768
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: something strong, longer than that. And we're so used again

769
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 1: specifically this past year with the pandemic being in our bubble.

770
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 1: Our kids that are close to us are loving wife

771
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: or husband, or aunts and uncles and grandmas and grandpas

772
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: that are close, and our friends that are connected to that.

773
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: But there are so many There's so much more going

774
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: on in the communities underneath what we see that the

775
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: authorities deal with. But again they've got their hands full

776
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: with so much going on as well. So I think

777
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: it's important for us to understand and maybe keep an

778
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: eye out for the outlayers, the people that need to

779
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: be brought into the world of good health and good education,

780
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: and we just don't know. There's so many lost lives.

781
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: I guess ben is a good way to put it.

782
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,280
Speaker 1: There's so many lost lives. And I don't being lost

783
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: like they've been killed, but losses in they're walking out

784
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 1: in the world, no guides and no love and no

785
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 1: hands to hold them. And when that happens, you have

786
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 1: a much better chance to be killed or taken or

787
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 1: kidnapped or whatever the violent act. Maybe And at this point, uh,

788
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 1: you know, as we said before, we don't want to

789
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: spoil the story. It is a journey that you should

790
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: take for yourself. Don't take our word for it. Check

791
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: it out yourself. Pee Wee. Gaskins was not My Friend.

792
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: Created by Jeff Keating. Episodes are available now. We like

793
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: you can't wait to hear how it ends. Jeff. In

794
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: the meantime, first, thank you so much for coming on

795
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: the show today. But in the meantime, what other projects

796
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 1: are you working on, either as an individual or through

797
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: Doghouse Pictures. We we'd love to learn more about your work.

798
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: I've got two more podcasts I'm developing now. One is

799
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: a Cold Case and the other is an international murder,

800
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 1: which I'm so excited to explore. I've got a feature

801
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: film that I'm developing called follow Me, which is based

802
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,919
Speaker 1: on a critically acclaim short story of the same name

803
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: by a wonderful author named Paul Grinder, And it's the

804
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 1: story about a female photographer who hires a private investigator

805
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 1: to follow her and take pictures. But when the gig raps,

806
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: the pictures don't stop, and they become more and more

807
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: invasive and intimate. And it's the relationship of diving into

808
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: kind of self explanation and this world's of photography and

809
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: really a visual medium that we're excited to dive into

810
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: that sounds gloriously creepy and I can't wait to see this.

811
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: I just want to add to Jeff it's it's it's

812
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: really been a pleasure working with you on this one

813
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: and also Fighting Night, and one commonality between those two,

814
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,240
Speaker 1: I think both of us had a good time helping

815
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: develop the score uh to these podcasts with some amazing

816
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:09,399
Speaker 1: local Atlanta UM Studio musicians, the Diamond Street Players, which

817
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 1: is sort of a collective UM. With Fight Night, we

818
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: went in a really cool kind of James Brown, kind

819
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: of gritty New York kind of funk sound, and for

820
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: this one, it really does mimic that dusty carnival kind

821
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:28,320
Speaker 1: of like you know, fun house kind of vibe. UM

822
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: really really impressed with the way it turned out, and

823
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 1: it really is kind of a cool, uh cohesive piece

824
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: of this show. UM, So I just wanted to put

825
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: that out there too. If you're into creepy music and

826
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 1: the way it's incorporated into a podcast, it's not overplayed.

827
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: I think it's done really tastefully, and I think you

828
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,720
Speaker 1: guys did an excellent job of incorporating all that stuff

829
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 1: that we worked with those guys on, So kudos for that,

830
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 1: and just to kind of wrap things up, guys to

831
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 1: the process, and we didn't get into the process much.

832
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: I know that wasn't part of the show, but the

833
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: process of podcasting is just fascinating. It's so much fun.

834
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: And so I had a fantastic team on this one. Again.

835
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,359
Speaker 1: Nol's been my EP on both projects. Dan Bush, who

836
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: you spoke of, was my director on Fight Night. But

837
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: our writers and researchers who I mentioned earlier, Courtney to Freeze,

838
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: Jim Roberts and Terry James, our editor Jeremiah Prescott, I

839
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 1: mean it's really especially when you do these limited narratives

840
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: true crimes. Uh. The teams are so important. We've got

841
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 1: a great team that works with us at Doghouse Pictures,

842
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: so I just want to give thanks to them, and

843
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 1: uh again thanks to the audience. You guys have grabbed

844
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: onto this thing. We've got a bunch of listeners, some

845
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: great reviews, and I just really appreciate everybody that's out

846
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: there listening and has been following the story. Yeah, so

847
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: follow their q and listen and review now on Apple podcasts. Uh,

848
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: the I heart Radio Apple wherever you get your podcasts,

849
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: and to learn more for yourself, you can go to

850
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:55,240
Speaker 1: Doghouse Pictures dot com uh to to get a bigger

851
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: breadth of Jeff's work, not just in the world of podcasts,

852
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: but well beyond. Thank you as always so much for

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Speaker 1: tuning in. Folks. Let us know your thoughts, which try

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Speaker 1: to make it easy to find us online. That's right,

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Speaker 1: you can find us on most of the internet locations.

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Speaker 1: Of note, we are on Facebook and Twitter and YouTube

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Speaker 1: as Conspiracy Stuff were Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram and

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Speaker 1: h While you're listening in reviewing jazz podcast, why not

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Speaker 1: give us a review as well, preferably on the Apple platform,

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Speaker 1: but any podcatcher that that lets your review where we're

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Speaker 1: here for it. That's right. You know. You can get

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Speaker 1: in touch with us over the phone one eight three

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Speaker 1: three std w y t K leave a message, let

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Speaker 1: us know what you'd like to call us, and please

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Speaker 1: let us know if we can use your message on air.

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Speaker 1: If you have too much to say, that's okay. You

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Speaker 1: can always contact us with our good old fashioned email address.

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Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at i heeart radio dot com. Mhm.

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Speaker 1: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,

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Speaker 1: visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.