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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 3: are you.

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Speaker 4: You are here.

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Speaker 3: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Folks,

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Speaker 3: as you may know, longtime listeners, new listeners, welcome. We're

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Speaker 3: all fellow conspiracy realists. We started this show and for

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Speaker 3: the most part continue this show in the United States.

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Speaker 3: The United States is home to a lot of things

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Speaker 3: other then stuff they don't want you to know. Some

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Speaker 3: of those things are great, right, and some of those

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Speaker 3: things are terrifying. I always remember that. I always remember

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Speaker 3: that stand up bit from years ago. I want to

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Speaker 3: say it was Dennis Leary maybe Carlin who pointed out

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Speaker 3: that the United States is the only country that would

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Speaker 3: look at cocaine and say, we need a little something extra.

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Speaker 4: We can do better.

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Speaker 3: Size it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it can do better now, Yeah, sure, and we

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Speaker 4: can do better. But what it's true. Lest folks come

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Speaker 4: at us saying that we're like anti American or something,

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Speaker 4: we all love this country. We want to protect it,

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Speaker 4: we want to keep living here.

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Speaker 2: You know it kind of rules well in the country

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Speaker 2: does a lot to protect itself theoretically, right with the

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Speaker 2: Department of Defense. It's all about defending the homeland, the country,

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Speaker 2: the culture, or the commerce, all the sea. We're we're

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Speaker 2: seeing a lot of military mind in the news right now, aren't.

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Speaker 3: We, right Yeah, known as the land of big Stuff,

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Speaker 3: That's what I'll call it here, folks. The United States

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Speaker 3: supersizes everything, and Uncle Sam's armed forces are no exception.

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Speaker 3: We all know that. In the wake of World War Two,

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Speaker 3: when so many other countries had their bells rung, there

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Speaker 3: was no infrastructure that could match that of the US,

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Speaker 3: and so the US from those seeds grew the most

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Speaker 3: powerful military across the planet Earth. We're talking right now

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Speaker 3: as we record on Tuesday, March tenth, we're talking about

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Speaker 3: unmatched global reach, a blue water navy that no one

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Speaker 3: can mess with, unmatched funding, peerless training, and of course

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Speaker 3: technological superiority.

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Speaker 2: We talked about it before, but it really did help

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Speaker 2: in World War Two. That we were so far away

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Speaker 2: from most of the fighting and we could build incredible

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Speaker 2: technological ships and send them, you know, that way across

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Speaker 2: the Pacific to help out. But we didn't really, we

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Speaker 2: didn't get decimated.

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Speaker 4: No, that's a good point. I didn't really think about that. Guys.

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Speaker 4: Has it always been a thing that we call our

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Speaker 4: brave men and women of the military war fighters?

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Speaker 3: It has not always been a thing that is like

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Speaker 3: a warfighters TM kind of situation, Like it's a little

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Speaker 3: bit of a rebrand, right, Yeah, it's a rhetorical device essentially,

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Speaker 3: it's marketing, it's pr The preferred term internally is going

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Speaker 3: to be service members. I would posit that warfighter came

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Speaker 3: into vogue when we saw the rise of private military contractors. Now,

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Speaker 3: then we have a new umbrella term that means people

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Speaker 3: who are not technically in the armed forces but have

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Speaker 3: a contract to help us mess some things up. So

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Speaker 3: now they're all war fighters, even if it's not a

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Speaker 3: war right right, Well, even if it's just an operation. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: war fighters.

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Speaker 4: Sexy operation fighters. Now operators is scary character its own thing, right.

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Speaker 4: Operators are like the real the wet boys, right Yeah, And.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for tuning in guys be safe out there.

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Speaker 2: Well, it is weird to I'm sorry, just thinking about

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Speaker 2: this more and more. The words we use to describe

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Speaker 2: the individual within the large infrastructure of a military right,

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Speaker 2: and you hear the words soldier, officer, and then trying

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Speaker 2: to figure out what's the difference between a soldier and

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Speaker 2: an officer, and then you can go, you know, pretty

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Speaker 2: deep down in the rabbit hole of some of the

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Speaker 2: nomenclature there. Sure, but it is you know, wow, I

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Speaker 2: haven't really thought about that concept of war fighter being

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Speaker 2: used for the purposes of kind of hacking your brain.

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Speaker 4: When you think about that, it's a flex It's like

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Speaker 4: look at our look at our you know, superheroes kind

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Speaker 4: of right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it it polled well with certain demographics, that's the reality.

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Speaker 3: Same with phrases like homeland or same with we'll get

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Speaker 3: into a department of war. That's another idiom.

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Speaker 4: Homeland is becoming a dog whistle kind of term. I mean,

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Speaker 4: does refer to like almost like the motherland, This idea

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Speaker 4: of racial purity, it feels like, is the way Homeland's

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Speaker 4: getting thrown around. We will have our home again, things

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Speaker 4: like that.

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Speaker 3: It's tut tut. It's also ironic because the primary supporters

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Speaker 3: of language like homeland or Department of Homeland Security are

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Speaker 3: not themselves Native Americans. Story for another day. I'm just

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Speaker 3: saying it's weird to call it a homeland. How long

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Speaker 3: is the US going to be the world's most dangerous military?

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Speaker 3: How long will that be the case? It remains to

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Speaker 3: be seen. We live in exciting times like that old

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Speaker 3: curse and maybe ninety days, Ben, maybe maybe it's an

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Speaker 3: episode in the future, right, ninety days you think.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, when in China's oil.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and then we see a cornered tiger.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I filled up, guys, good, good call on that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, man, glad you did.

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Speaker 4: Look.

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Speaker 3: Paranoia is something that only seems crazy before the S

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Speaker 3: hits the F, and the S did indeed hit the F.

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Speaker 3: In tonight's episode, we are exploring something that may not

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Speaker 3: be appropriate for all audiences, a disturbing series of alleged

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Speaker 3: and confirmed conspiracies about cover ups of sexual assault and

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Speaker 3: murder within the military. The threat came not from outside forces, but,

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Speaker 3: as we will all see tonight, came from with it. Again,

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Speaker 3: not appropriate for all listeners, but these are true conspiracies.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a quick pause and get our wits about us,

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Speaker 4: and then we'll jump right in.

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Speaker 3: Here are the facts, all right. We have a lot

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Speaker 3: of veterans, we have a lot of active service members

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Speaker 3: in the crowd tonight, and thank you for your service.

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Speaker 3: So for some of us this may be old beings,

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Speaker 3: but it's very important. We got to give you some

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Speaker 3: facts about the US Armed Forces because a lot of

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Speaker 3: civilians still don't understand just how big this thing is.

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Speaker 3: It is a leviathan, is behemoth. It is a monster

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Speaker 3: of old. I mean, it's so big that a lot

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Speaker 3: of people right now working in the military or in

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Speaker 3: adjacent industries, they're only going to see a very small

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Speaker 3: part of the larger picture in the day to day,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean. It's like when we're talking

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Speaker 3: about building secret Cold War facilities or the Manhattan Project.

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Speaker 3: You could technically work in that endeavor, but if you're

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Speaker 3: the guy who just drives the truck, you have no

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Speaker 3: idea what they're building in there out out top weights.

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Speaker 4: Always oh no.

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Speaker 2: Well, and the three of us, I believe, have never

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Speaker 2: been members of any military service, and we imagine that

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Speaker 2: many of you have not as well. So a lot

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Speaker 2: of this is pretty new or at least things as

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Speaker 2: you're describing. There have been things that we don't think

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Speaker 2: about when our brains ping. Even you know the word military,

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Speaker 2: or you think about the navy or a military base,

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Speaker 2: even a complex, we don't think about the inner workings

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Speaker 2: of those systems.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great point, Matt. I mean, because how

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Speaker 3: could you full visibility on the entirety of something of

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Speaker 3: this stature seeing the forest for all those trees, It's

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Speaker 3: a herculean effort. We'll be honest, and again, I really

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Speaker 3: appreciate the point all made about how we do care

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Speaker 3: about this country and we're very fortunate to be here.

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Speaker 3: We also part of that great opportunity is the opportunity

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Speaker 3: to point out when things are going wrong. One of

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Speaker 3: the best, dumbest, most ridiculous examples, the size of the

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Speaker 3: US Armed Forces is such that even their budget is

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Speaker 3: beyond congressional understanding. It has so many loopholes, conundrums, redactions,

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Speaker 3: black bag projects we call them. We still as a

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Speaker 3: country can't figure out how to audit the thing. The

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Speaker 3: Pentagon is most famous in accounting circles for eternally failing

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Speaker 3: its audits. Shout out to tax season. By the way,

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Speaker 3: I'm super stoked.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm bullish taxes.

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Speaker 2: Shout out to Dick Cheney rip I guess when you

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Speaker 2: might guys remember he and he's the one who announced

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Speaker 2: during the Afghanistan Iraq conflict that, oh, yeah, we're missing

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Speaker 2: the twenties on the bill dollars.

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Speaker 3: But it's don't matter national that doesn't matter. We got

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Speaker 3: stuff to do. So okay, if we're talking about the

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Speaker 3: armed forces, right, similar to warfighters, we are using an

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Speaker 3: umbrella term. So what what do we mean when we

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Speaker 3: say armed forces in the United States?

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Speaker 4: That? Yeah, all of them, right, it's like all of

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Speaker 4: the different the various branches. That would be the Army, Navy,

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Speaker 4: Air Force, and don't we have a new one, the

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Speaker 4: Space Force.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the Marine Corps Marin Corps, of course, and then

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Speaker 3: uh and then of course the newest shiny boy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah uh generation.

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Speaker 3: We have the national guards, you know, the Army National Guard,

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Speaker 3: the Air National Guard. Those are considered reserve components. They operate.

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Speaker 3: The important logistic part here is they operate harshly under

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Speaker 3: the authority of an individual state in the Union and

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Speaker 3: all of this stuff, all of these people they are

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Speaker 3: under the supervision of the Department of Defense. Sometimes recently

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Speaker 3: called the Department of War.

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Speaker 4: Question. Yeah, that is that was sort of a unilateral

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Speaker 4: move without any approval, So it's not technically legal, nor

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Speaker 4: is it official that it's referred to as that.

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Speaker 3: It's official on their website, but it has not been

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Speaker 3: approved through the previously.

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Speaker 4: Established didn't it change signage and all kinds of mentions,

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Speaker 4: And that cost a pretty penny to the taxpayers as well.

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Speaker 2: And it was the Department of War in seventeen eighty nine.

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Speaker 3: Right, so it's a renaming, like how Fort Hood got

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Speaker 3: renamed back to Fort Hood? Right, Yeah, So up until recently,

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Speaker 3: until about twenty eighteen, the Department of Defense, which call

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Speaker 3: it for this conversation, their mission statement, their thesis was, Hey,

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Speaker 3: we provide quote, the military forces needed to deter war

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Speaker 3: and to protect the security of our country. Until again,

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Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, this got changed to the mission of the

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Speaker 3: Department of Defense is to provide a lethal joint force

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Speaker 3: to defend the security of our country and to sustain

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Speaker 3: American influence abroad. So a little more agro, a little

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Speaker 3: more agro.

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Speaker 2: Oh, but yeah, but we remember even that initial one

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Speaker 2: protect the security of our country.

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Speaker 4: We know what that means, you know, what that means.

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Speaker 2: That's that's not that's not tsa stuff.

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Speaker 4: Current administration is just quite fond of saying the quiet

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Speaker 4: part out loud, no uncertain terms, with words like lethal

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Speaker 4: and punching down, punching them the other they're down. I mean,

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Speaker 4: there's just a real, uh, you know, streak of the

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Speaker 4: kind of macho talk going on that is a little

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Speaker 4: I mean, look not to be political at all really here,

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Speaker 4: but it's just it makes me cringe a little bit.

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Speaker 4: It's hard to say, it's hard to hear. It feels

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Speaker 4: a little, i don't know, mma ish kind of like

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Speaker 4: taunting your enemy. And maybe some people are into that

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Speaker 4: and think that's the right move, but to me it

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Speaker 4: feels unprofessional.

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Speaker 3: Maybe it's also not well ridden. To me, just on

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Speaker 3: a very specific point, the language and the mechanisms are

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Speaker 3: just not working. And part of that is because, as

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Speaker 3: critics allege, the current supervision of the most dangerous military

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Speaker 3: in the world is increasingly run and helmed by people

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Speaker 3: who do not have the qualifications that were historically requisite

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Speaker 3: for those positions. I'm talking, of course, about Pete Hexath,

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Speaker 3: who you may know best as being portrayed by Colin

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Speaker 3: jost In the newest season of Saturday Night Live perfect

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Speaker 3: Can you believe it?

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Speaker 4: We're incredible casting. And also, I just wanted to add

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Speaker 4: two guys. I think there are some people, you know,

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Speaker 4: who are fans of this administration who might argue that

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Speaker 4: this is exactly the kick in the pants that the

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Speaker 4: government positions need is having all that experience that's old

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Speaker 4: hat and that is not that is not how we

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Speaker 4: make changes doing things the old way, that we need

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Speaker 4: to bring in new blood, and that that experience, that

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Speaker 4: lack of experience, is a feature, not a bug.

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Speaker 3: We hear that, we hear that. We also we also

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Speaker 3: know that shake ups, to your point, are incredibly necessary

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Speaker 3: in a large organization. A weird fact about the size.

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Speaker 3: First off, if you are not from the United States,

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Speaker 3: thank you for tuning in. We've got to tell you,

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Speaker 3: despite being an individualistic capitalist democracy, the largest single employer

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Speaker 3: in all of the United States is the Department of Defense.

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Speaker 3: The military is this country's largest employer by far.

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Speaker 2: That's right. And now they're doing maximum lethality, not tepid legality.

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Speaker 2: They're doing violent effects, not politically correct.

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Speaker 4: All right, poetry slam.

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Speaker 2: Sorry that's from him.

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Speaker 3: I don't think he wrote it.

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Speaker 4: But but he delivered it, that's for dang sure. And

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Speaker 4: he was he was on beat.

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Speaker 3: I'll give him that. He was on beat with it.

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Speaker 4: When this with his hands, you know, like doing the

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Speaker 4: Mariah Carey thing.

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Speaker 3: It's a teaser for the album. Yeah, cut the track.

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Speaker 4: Snare up in my headphones.

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Speaker 3: I don't have him snare my headphones. We're talking about

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Speaker 3: more than one point three million active duty service members.

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Speaker 3: Then we're talking seven hundred and fifty thousand or so

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Speaker 3: civilian personnel, and then more than eight hundred eleven thousand

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Speaker 3: National Guard Reserve service members. Those are the official stats,

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Speaker 3: but they also don't out what six hundred thousand something

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Speaker 3: private sector employees who are you know, some of them

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Speaker 3: are war fighters, some of them are going to be

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Speaker 3: boffins over at places like Lockey Martin, the folks who

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Speaker 3: make the weapons systems for the defense industry.

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Speaker 2: And this is one is Eric Prince.

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Speaker 4: One is Eric Prince.

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Speaker 3: Of course, returning character. I hope he finally figures out

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Speaker 3: a name for his little company he keeps going back.

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Speaker 4: Which one is Eric Prince? Y'all, I don't think I'm familiar.

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Speaker 4: Sorry if I'm out of the loop.

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Speaker 3: On the Mountain. He's an aristocrat, right wing in the US.

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Speaker 3: But it's fair, he said, Well, he controls Blackwater Academy. Fally,

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Speaker 3: they just keep going through. I mean it's their Wagner

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Speaker 3: Army essentially at this point. But like, this is what

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Speaker 3: I was thinking about, guys. Okay, So anyone who has

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Speaker 3: ever had a job knows that social dynamics can be

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Speaker 3: a challenge, even if you've got a relatively small workforce,

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Speaker 3: you know, like you have in your day to day career.

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Speaker 3: Let's say you have you're part of a team of

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Speaker 3: five people, or let's say you work at a top

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Speaker 3: notch American establishment like Dave and Busters. You have a

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Speaker 3: group of coworkers, you know them, but they're all still humans.

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Speaker 3: So there are going to be challenging social dynamics layabouts.

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Speaker 4: Did We also mentioned how that David Busters is considered

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Speaker 4: a wing of the Armed Services as well.

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Speaker 3: It's like training programs exactly, Yeah, brought well, they're contractors

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Speaker 3: brought to you by Illumination Globe Blood limited and the

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Speaker 3: signs are there once you check. But that's that's the thing,

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Speaker 3: Like the social dynamics don't really change based upon the

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Speaker 3: size of the humans interacting you're still going to find

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Speaker 3: some of the same almost sacricynct or invulnerable rules like

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Speaker 3: any other group, the military, like any other company. Really,

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Speaker 3: they have strict rules, codes, and policies to keep everybody

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Speaker 3: in line, to keep every little gear moving towards the

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Speaker 3: engine of the greater good. And if you violate these rules,

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Speaker 3: even the ones that seem arbitrary to you in theory,

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Speaker 3: that violation results in a range of punishments up to

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Speaker 3: and including getting incarcerated, getting thrown, and the brig getting

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Speaker 3: court martialed. They get in badly.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting to think about the rules or the laws

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Speaker 2: or whatever you want to put it, right, the rules

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Speaker 2: of functioning within one of those groups, because each one

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Speaker 2: is going to have its own culture, right, are like

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Speaker 2: a separate culture, and that can change by like institution

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Speaker 2: or even building or you know, a base or a

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Speaker 2: ship like that slight culture change. But then you've also

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Speaker 2: got norms, so things that normally may happen, and then

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Speaker 2: how that organization or the top levels of that organization

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Speaker 2: handle those incidents well.

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Speaker 4: And guys, I mean we just talked about Seer School

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Speaker 4: for example, about how inherent in some of these branches

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Speaker 4: there is as part of the training regime, things that

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Speaker 4: could be considered assault, things that could be considered the

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Speaker 4: most extreme forms of hazing. And I've seen full metal jacket,

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Speaker 4: I know what a blanket party is. I mean, like,

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Speaker 4: these are this kind of hazing. These rituals, they could

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Speaker 4: be argued, are just part of toughening people up, are

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Speaker 4: just part of the culture that yields good warfighters, good soldiers.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the rationale historically. And while we're talking pop culture,

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Speaker 3: this also reminds me of an excellent novel, The Stand,

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Speaker 3: written by a guy named Stephen King. In The Stand spoiler,

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Speaker 3: it's been adapted a couple of times, but read the novel.

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Speaker 3: In The Stand, the humanity encounters a lab create mutation

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Speaker 3: of influenza that wipes out the majority of the population,

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Speaker 3: and when the lab gets violated, right when things go wrong,

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Speaker 3: the virus begins to spread. This early in the book,

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Speaker 3: there's a military commander who is presented the option of

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Speaker 3: going public and warning people or covering up the entire

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Speaker 3: thing and trying to keep our problems in house. And

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Speaker 3: he has this moment that King writes really well where

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Speaker 3: he says, you know, he essentially says the military is

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Speaker 3: our mother. And if you find your mother violated or

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Speaker 3: desecrated right in her home, what's the first thing you do.

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Speaker 3: You don't go to the authorities. The first thing you

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Speaker 3: do is you cover up her body. And that is

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Speaker 3: something that I think is integral to a lot of

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Speaker 3: military reasoning in the United States. Yeah, we went dark,

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Speaker 3: but mommy.

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Speaker 4: You're not wrong. Yeah, well it's the idea of Oh gosh,

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Speaker 4: I was actually I was watching The Simpsons last night

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Speaker 4: and there is an episode where Homer gets drafted into

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Speaker 4: the Navy and he's on a naval submarine with the

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Speaker 4: commander and it's almost like one of those things like

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Speaker 4: in the movie Being There, where this sort of dopey

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Speaker 4: person accidentally is saying really smart things or people are

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Speaker 4: interpreting it as such. And he's trying to get some peas,

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Speaker 4: and the naval commander says, yes, we all want peace,

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Speaker 4: and how do we get peace? And his Homer is

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Speaker 4: trying to pick up, scoop up the peas with a knife.

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Speaker 4: He says, with a knife. He goes, exactly, you need

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Speaker 4: you have to use a knife to get peace. There's

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Speaker 4: no namby pamby pussy footing around. We have the one. Sorry, wow,

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Speaker 4: I mean.

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Speaker 3: That's another thing, right, Like we're we're thinking about the

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Speaker 3: size of an organization. Regardless of what you think about

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Speaker 3: the us AR enforces, there is no denying that it

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Speaker 3: is a gigantic, nostaltic organization. So that means the rules

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Speaker 3: don't always work the way they are supposed to. Things

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Speaker 3: fall through the cracks, Corruption occurs, crime as well. Individual

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Speaker 3: actors become concerned about their self right, their self interest,

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Speaker 3: So maybe they bend the rules, maybe they break the rules,

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Speaker 3: maybe they bury some bodies we have seen.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think spend your idea of protecting the organization

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Speaker 2: itself and its reputation.

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Speaker 4: It's legacy, it's you know.

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Speaker 2: Your ability to get recruits that want to be a

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Speaker 2: part of this organization. You do not want the name

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Speaker 2: sullied of any of these organizations.

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Speaker 3: If you're up there, right, don't let your flag hit

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Speaker 3: the dirt, you know, even when you're doing dirt to

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Speaker 3: save it. So Catholic Church, right, So another large organization. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: out our previous episodes, recent years, folks have exposed a

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Speaker 3: profoundly disturbing series of genuine conspiracies at the heart of

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Speaker 3: the world's most dangerous military. You see, folks, despite all

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Speaker 3: the rules and the regulations, a great many critics, including

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Speaker 3: veterans and active service members who may be watching the

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Speaker 3: show tonight, they're alleging that the military, for decades and

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Speaker 3: decades has been covering up the harassment, assault, and murder

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Speaker 3: of their own. The call is coming from inside the house.

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Speaker 3: And again, folks, the following may contain descriptions of graphic

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Speaker 3: violence and unclean things. As a result, this episode may

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Speaker 3: not be appropriate for all audience members. Will be right back.

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Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy. We've got to talk about

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Speaker 3: one of the most well known cases of conspiracy here.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a story we all remember, right from

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Speaker 3: about five years ago.

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Speaker 2: It feels like we have at least mentioned this because

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Speaker 2: of when it happened, and then some of the other

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Speaker 2: military topics we've talked about. I think we've passed it

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Speaker 2: in or we mentioned it in passing as one of

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Speaker 2: the atrocious things that has occurred. And guys, I couldn't

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Speaker 2: find the episode to like point people to, I swear

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Speaker 2: we have.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about the homicide of private first class now

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Speaker 3: posthumously promoted to specialist, Vanessa giet So. Vanessa again is

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Speaker 3: in Fort Hood, Texas. She's twenty years old, Private first class.

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Speaker 3: She it's a long term goal of hers to get

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Speaker 3: into the military, so she's set for a long life

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Speaker 3: and she may end up being one of those people

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Speaker 3: who does don't just do their bid and get honorably discharged.

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Speaker 3: She may be going for a full career.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: This may be the most important decision of her life.

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Speaker 3: That all changed on April twenty second, twenty twenty, when

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Speaker 3: Vanessa disappeared. So as we know, this is already not

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Speaker 3: looking good and an investigation ensues. The family feels that

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Speaker 3: the army is stone walling them at every step. They're

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Speaker 3: keeping them in the dark. They're not telling them details

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Speaker 3: about their investigation into their daughter's disappearance. They call it

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Speaker 3: for now, and the FBI is getting involved right. Multiple

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Speaker 3: military authorities are getting involved in this search, and they're

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Speaker 3: looking all around the area surrounding Fort Hood. There are

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Speaker 3: also a number of protests. The public gets winned. Hundreds

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Speaker 3: of people are rallying for answers. The biggest mass protest

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Speaker 3: was at the very gates of Fort Hood on June thirteenth,

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty. This person is missing for more than two months,

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Speaker 3: before things take a turn and investigators discover pieces of

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Speaker 3: her body. She has not disappeared, she has died. The

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Speaker 3: remains they find are burned, dismembered. They were buried under

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Speaker 3: concrete and possibly dug up by a scavenging animal, and

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Speaker 3: this was discovered along the nearby Leon River on June thirtieth,

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Speaker 3: So around this time the authorities with this discovery, they

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Speaker 3: reinterview a local civilian named Cecily and Aguilar. Aguilar has

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Speaker 3: been married to a guy who's a soldier at Fort Hood,

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Speaker 3: but they're estrange. She is the girlfriend of a person

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Speaker 3: we have to mention at this point, Aaron David Robinson.

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Speaker 3: Aaron David Robinson, enlisted, also a soldier also at Fort Hood,

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Speaker 3: ranked specialist, one of the last known people to have

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Speaker 3: seen Gayenne on the day of her disappearance. He had

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Speaker 3: been previously interviewed by authorities as well, just because of

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Speaker 3: the timeline, but he had not been detained at that

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Speaker 3: point until Aguilar told the police that her boyfriend had

435
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 3: confessed to her that he murdered a female soldier unnamed.

436
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 3: So at the behest of the cops of the police,

437
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 3: she calls Robinson. She texts him stuff She specifically sends

438
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 3: a text that says, baby, they found pieces, referring to

439
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 3: Vanessa's body.

440
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 4: WHOA.

441
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: So she was working with police to get him to

442
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 2: officially confess, like in their presence or something, or over

443
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: in the presence of her phone. I suppose that's what

444
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 2: they're trying to get her to do.

445
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: Yes, that seems to be the case. We also know

446
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 3: that he did not. Robinson did not ever say what

447
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 3: are you talking about or explicitly deny any of the stuff.

448
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 3: She was also texting news stories about the discovery and

449
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 3: the investigation.

450
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 2: Put heat on him. Do we know? Do we know

451
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: if the specialist ranked is that above whatever? Private? First class?

452
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 4: Yes?

453
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 2: She was okay, so she was throughout this whole process.

454
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: If this guy isn't actually involved, she's feeling the pressure

455
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: of that institutional thing. That's like I didn't really fully

456
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: understand that that it was like, is that like sergeant

457
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 2: rank or above? I don't know how any of that works.

458
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 3: The sergeant was the one that had harassed her that

459
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 3: she refused to report. But definitely power structures are in play,

460
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 3: and we we haven't we haven't gotten to what actually happened.

461
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 3: So on the same evening, that these remains are discovered,

462
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 3: Robinson flees. He goes on the run. He probably knew

463
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,239
Speaker 3: the walls were closing in. He was deceptively told by

464
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 3: investigators that he was being held and a new function

465
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 3: detained for violating COVID nineteen quarantine rules. However, he just

466
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 3: had one unarmed guard on him and he was able

467
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: to slip the news. He got out for a second

468
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 3: off base, and police located him, and as they were

469
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 3: coming to apprehend him, he took his old life via

470
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 3: firearm in the wee hours of July first, So he

471
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 3: did not escape for very long.

472
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 2: Geez. So the guy was still on the base when

473
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 2: he gets apprehended, so they just held him there and

474
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: then he just gets out for a second. Man, That's

475
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: that's insane.

476
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:01,959
Speaker 3: Well, these grizzly details are currently matters of public record,

477
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 3: and what you need to know here, folks, is the

478
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 3: ultimate result. Multiple investigations have concluded that Vanessa Gillen's life

479
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 3: was cut short on April twenty second, twenty twenty. She

480
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 3: did not consensually disappear. She was bludgeoned to death by

481
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 3: Aaron David Robinson. He was also another soldierhood obviously and

482
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 3: he was about twenty years old at the time. So

483
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 3: the truth did ultimately come out. To go out to

484
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 3: get to it, but you need to know the story

485
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 3: because it is a snapshot of a larger picture. The

486
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 3: Gillen family, they believe their darker depths to these events.

487
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 3: They call for justice, right sweeping improvements of the way

488
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 3: sexual harassment is handled by the US military, and Yen's

489
00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 3: mother also says, look, I spoke to multiple witnesses who

490
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 3: were there when Robinson died, when the assailant died, and

491
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 3: those multiple witnesses tell me they heard two gunshots at

492
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 3: the time of the suicide. So she believes to this

493
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 3: day that Robinson did not take his own life. Instead,

494
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 3: he was executed by authorities as part of a larger

495
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 3: cover up, possibly involving senior members of the military over

496
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 3: at Fort Hood.

497
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 2: WHOA Okay, so that goes back to the sergeant that

498
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 2: she was talking about she was assaulted by or did

499
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 2: she say assaulted by the sergeant?

500
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 4: Harassed, harassm assed? Okay?

501
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: All right, So theoretically, in this version, right, if we

502
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 2: take it to be true, potentially this person that killed

503
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 2: her wasn't someone who was assaulting her or harassing her.

504
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: This was someone who was sent to take her out.

505
00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 3: Well, it appears from what we understand, it appears that

506
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 3: this Robinson character, this soldier brutally murdered the other soldier

507
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 3: because they were fraternizing, or he found out or she

508
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 3: found out that he had a girlfriend, and that's the

509
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 3: official story. It became she saw like a picture of

510
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 3: his civilian girlfriend on his phone while it was screen locked,

511
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 3: and then he murdered her. But that doesn't seem like

512
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 3: the entirety of the story, even now in twenty twenty six.

513
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 4: God no, right, yeah, very least. That's quite the extreme overreaction.

514
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 3: Ray and the allegation of cover up there is more

515
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 3: directly that Robinson himself. I mean, it gets to like

516
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 3: a few good men's style, right, that maybe Robinson was

517
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: told to get rid of this person, and then maybe

518
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 3: he got disavowed, and then maybe he became inconvenient and

519
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 3: was self murdered. But again, we don't have the full

520
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,479
Speaker 3: details on this, other than to say it definitely feels

521
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 3: like a conspiracy in a cover up.

522
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 4: Well, I will say that the messiness of all of

523
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 4: this certainly doesn't seem to imply a systematic conspiracy that

524
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 4: involves taking people out. It feels like a lot of

525
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 4: crime of passion, messy randomness, and then perhaps to cover

526
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 4: up after the facts, right.

527
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with that because folks, as we've said previously,

528
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 3: oftentimes true conspiracies are not going to be vast you know,

529
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 3: doctor doom level finger steepled machinations into the future, or machinations,

530
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 3: if you want to drive language that way. Instead, it's

531
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 3: gonna be someone making mistake, right, and then fumbling and

532
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 3: trying to cover up that mistake. That's usually what happens.

533
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 4: And then sometimes you have to cover up the cover.

534
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 3: Up, right, and it's just cover ups all the way down.

535
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: Matroshka doll of conspiracy. This single case, though it did

536
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 3: make it to the public eye, made it to mainstream media,

537
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 3: made it out of the secretive internal mechanics of the

538
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 3: armed forces. And when the civilians learn about this, when

539
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 3: other siloed service members learn about this, this single case

540
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 3: triggers a massive tide, a tsunami of reports of similar

541
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 3: allegations of cover up, corruption, crime, and conspiracy. What if

542
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 3: we take a break for a word from our sponsors,

543
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 3: come back, talk about a couple more cases, and then

544
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 3: look at the larger picture here and we've returned. Do

545
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 3: you two remember the story of Private first Class Florence Schmorgener.

546
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 3: I do not, nor do I schmo to her friends.

547
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 3: All right, this is twenty to fifteen, so this is

548
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 3: before the case we discussed previously. This Private is nineteen

549
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 3: years old in the Marines, stationed to California's twenty nine Palms,

550
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 3: which is going to be legendary and bring up a

551
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 3: lot of bad memories to anybody who's ever had had

552
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 3: to be stationed there. All right, so they're an off time,

553
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 3: they're hanging out. Think of it like almost like a

554
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 3: dorm room these barracks, you're playing video games. Because of

555
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 3: the policy at the time, when male and female Marines

556
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 3: are in the same room like this, you have to

557
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 3: keep the door open, kind of like how parents have

558
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 3: that rule about you know, teenage paramoors coming over.

559
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, you guys.

560
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 2: A good rule. That's a really good rule.

561
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 3: It's a really good rule rule. As people who tried

562
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 3: to get around that rule so many times growing up,

563
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 3: it's a really smart rule.

564
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm not going to say anything more, but I

565
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 2: have learned as a as a young man that that

566
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 2: rule is important.

567
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 3: It's very important. It's very important for a number of reasons.

568
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 3: And thanks to everybody who is chuckling and having their

569
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 3: own memories in the crowd. This gets dark because at

570
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 3: some point, we're about mid afternoon. At some point, Florence

571
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,240
Speaker 3: falls asleep on her friend's bed, and when she wakes,

572
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 3: the door is closed. This is against policy. Her male

573
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 3: quote unquote friend is groping her, removes her clothing and

574
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:49,399
Speaker 3: sexually assaults her. She has no idea what to do.

575
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 3: She doesn't know who to report to. She does know

576
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 3: what policies are available. It's twenty fifteen, so she knows

577
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 3: well the potential for retaliation. And we're pulling some of

578
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 3: this from The New York Times in an interview with her.

579
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 3: The next few weeks are terrified for this kid because

580
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 3: she sees her assaulter multiple times. Right, they work in

581
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 3: the same place, they use the same gym, she says.

582
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 3: Over the next few years she tries to trigger by

583
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 3: this trauma. She tries to take her own life on

584
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 3: at least six separate occasions. It's not until twenty seventeen

585
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 3: that she meets somebody else who can help her.

586
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 4: And yeah, we know and have seen numerous accounts of

587
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 4: even in the civilian world, the idea of reporting a

588
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 4: sexual assault being incredibly emotionally complex, and potentially if it

589
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 4: was done by someone, you know, the idea of rationalizing

590
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 4: it after the fact, or it was a friend, or

591
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 4: he didn't mean it, or this, that and the other.

592
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 4: So even in the I'm not going to say the

593
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 4: best of circumstances, there's no best of circumstances here. But

594
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 4: when you do have recourse in a way to report

595
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 4: these attacks, these types of assaults in a system, perhaps

596
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 4: even through the emergency room and the idea of a

597
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 4: rape kit being done, it's incredibly complicated and difficult. In

598
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,959
Speaker 4: this framework. In the military, there's already this overarching sense

599
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 4: of don't do it, it's bad for you. If you

600
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 4: do it, it's.

601
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 2: Just bad for us.

602
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 4: If bad for us, thank you, that's what I exactly right,

603
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 4: and are us a whole other layer of that emotional

604
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 4: complexity that would make it even more to the point

605
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 4: of what you just said, ben even more devastating. And

606
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 4: then to continue on in that environment.

607
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 2: And the knowledge that the likelihood that something is actually

608
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 2: going to happen or a full investigation is going to occur,

609
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 2: or there's going to be any justice or anything like that.

610
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 2: Just knowing that that is few and far between already.

611
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 4: Even worse that you do stand up and report it,

612
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 4: and then not only does nothing happen, but then it

613
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 4: makes you a new target.

614
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 3: Absolutely right, And at each point you're re experiencing what occurred. Right.

615
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 3: This is also part of the This is one of

616
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 3: the reasons that survivors of assault may choose not to

617
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 3: testify in court, you know, and it's very valid, very

618
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 3: disturbing reason. Here's what changes. In twenty seventeen. Our protagonist

619
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 3: meets another survivor of assault, a fellow marine named Echo Arnold.

620
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 3: Echo is the one who encourages Schmorgunner to file an

621
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 3: actual report. So at first she files what's called a

622
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 3: restricted report. The details are confidential, there is no investigation.

623
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 3: All that happens is the complainant that closes what happened,

624
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 3: and they get healthcare and counseling. And I don't know

625
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 3: if I would always trust the counseling to be quite honest.

626
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 3: So a month later, this person filed an unrestricted report

627
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 3: to initiating an investigation into sexual assault that could result

628
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 3: in consequences for the offender. I don't know, it gets

629
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 3: shut down. They do the same thing like the Aguilar

630
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 3: case we mentioned earlier. This is run The investigation is

631
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 3: run by NCIS, the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, and they

632
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 3: get her on a phone with this abuser, and this

633
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 3: guy is now based in Hawaii. She's on the phone

634
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 3: with him, she talks about what happened. He confesses, and

635
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 3: he apologizes, and so now we're thinking we might see justice.

636
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 3: But NCIS shuts down the investigation and they say, yeah,

637
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 3: I guess he did confess, but we've got character witnesses

638
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 3: and they're saying nice things about him, and also we

639
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 3: don't have any physical evidence that this assault occurred. Feels

640
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 3: like a cover up.

641
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 2: Well it's weird, wouldn't All you need is a confession

642
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 2: and you could at least do some kind of action, right.

643
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 3: Right, that's the issue, you know, if you have if

644
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 3: you have the person literally saying I did this, I apologize,

645
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 3: that feels like case closed. Right then. It feels like

646
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 3: denying that confession is a cover up based on character witnesses.

647
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 4: I don't know. That's not the typical procedure, right, Oh

648
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 4: it is. That's some legal gymnastics after the fact to

649
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 4: make the result that's most convenient. I mean, gosh, like,

650
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 4: and how come a rape kit wasn't done in the

651
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 4: first place. I guess that would require an immediate reporting,

652
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 4: which doesn't seem like would be the common the norm

653
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 4: in situations like this.

654
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, because this person was not provided the resources to

655
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:11,439
Speaker 3: continue right to find those avenues for justice. The investigation

656
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 3: in this case closes in twenty eighteen. The assailant meets

657
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 3: no consequences despite the confession. He serves his time with

658
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 3: the Marines, he does his bid, he leaves with an

659
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 3: honorable discharge, so nothing on his record. And these two

660
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 3: cases we're outlining here, they just add to an unclean

661
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 3: litany of similar events, similar conspiracies. Maybe we talked briefly

662
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 3: about stuff like the Aberdeen scandal, the USAF Academy scandal,

663
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 3: or how about the nineteen ninety one Tailhook scandal.

664
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, let's talk about the Tailhook incident. Let's jump

665
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 2: to September nineteen ninety one to a Las Vegas convention

666
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: center and to a little thing the Navy is putting

667
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: on there. It's a huge convention called Tailhook. I had

668
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 2: never heard of this before. Guys, This has been reported

669
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,879
Speaker 2: on a ton by PBS. I even saw, oh, someone

670
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 2: we've talked to on this show before, Celeste Hedley, hosting

671
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 2: a report on this from just a couple of years ago.

672
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 4: We don't have a CELESTI that what you're saying for

673
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 4: Big Sugar, Wasn't that what it was? Yeah?

674
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm also host of Freeway Phantom. But she's doing

675
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 2: a report on PBS about this from nineteen ninety one,

676
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 2: something I'd never heard about, and I don't know why

677
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: I've never heard about this. This is a convention in

678
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 2: Las Vegas where there are a ton of Naval officers,

679
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 2: specifically officers who are in the flight training programs. Because

680
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 2: we know Navy is on the sea, but things like

681
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 2: aircraft carriers, there's an entire Navy flight force basically that

682
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 2: is out there. Think of top Gun, that is naval

683
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 2: aerospace forces.

684
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, the two biggest air forces in the world are

685
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 3: in this order, the United States Air Force and the

686
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 3: US Navy.

687
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 2: Yes, you got things like the Navy Strike Fighter Tactics

688
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 2: Instructor Program and the Navy Fighter Weapons schools. These are

689
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 2: things that are actually top gun is in reference to

690
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 2: and what occurs in nineteen ninety one is at this

691
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 2: conference center. A lot of large groups of the officers

692
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 2: were accused of getting very very drunk and hanging out

693
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 2: having parties after the major events of the convention, and

694
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 2: then there were a lot of stories that came out

695
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: right after of these groups of men harassing, assaulting, and

696
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 2: raping women in that convention center hotel.

697
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 3: Eighty three women and seven men.

698
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 2: What the well, well, here's the thing. At first, nobody

699
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 2: knows about those numbers. There are rumors, there are some

700
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 2: people that are saying stuff went down, and it's a

701
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: known thing that stuff goes down at these conferences, specifically

702
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: with the Navy in this case.

703
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 4: In that context, Matt tho, would they be more referring

704
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 4: to people get up to some fratonizing. You know, there's

705
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 4: set boys will be boys at it, right.

706
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:10,720
Speaker 2: That that is what the Navy.

707
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 4: That's what I'm saying.

708
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, But one person, Paula Coughlin, actually comes

709
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 2: out and she tries to get something done. After there's

710
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 2: an official internal investigation where there are fifteen hundred officers

711
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 2: questioned who were there at the convention. Only two officers

712
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 2: are named as suspects in some of the stuff that occurred,

713
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 2: and most of the officers refuse to cooperate. So Paula

714
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 2: goes on television and she says this, not every man

715
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,439
Speaker 2: in the Navy behaves like that, but those who did

716
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,879
Speaker 2: shouldn't remain in the Navy or the Marine Corps and

717
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 2: begins talking about that kind of toxic masculinity thing that

718
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 2: existed as a culture, not for one particular reason, but

719
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 2: for a lot of the things we talked about, especially

720
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 2: at the top of this episode. And this is a

721
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,919
Speaker 2: time in the early nineteen nineties when men and women

722
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 2: are beginning to work closely together within the Navy and

723
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 2: the Army and other parts of the military, which is

724
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 2: not something that the establishment was used to, and rather

725
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 2: than you know, set up resources or anything like that

726
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 2: or figure out the problems, it was kind of covered up.

727
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 2: It was definitely covered up for quite a while, and

728
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 2: it wasn't until later that they there was an official

729
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 2: Pentagon investigation that found out that there was just a

730
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 2: what did you say where the numbers been.

731
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, the numbers for the nineteen ninety one Tailhook scandal

732
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 3: are eighty three women and seven men who are assaulted

733
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 3: during this convention. Again, that's September fifth through the seventh

734
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety one coming out.

735
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 4: That's a really good point, you guys, about how relatively

736
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 4: new this dynamic was, and it would make sense that

737
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 4: there wouldn't instantly be you know, resources for this kind

738
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 4: of stuff. This kind of stuff, I mean, it is

739
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 4: a very old organization with a lot of built in norms,

740
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 4: you know, and cultures within various branches of the armed forces.

741
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 4: And I'm looking around, and I mean there's certainly folks

742
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 4: who historically have criticized the inclusion of women in the

743
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 4: military because of quote unquote sexual tension that it could cause.

744
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 4: And that kind of language implies a victim blaming mentality

745
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 4: a little bit to me. I don't know, maybe I'm

746
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 4: overstated the case very much.

747
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 2: So.

748
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 3: I mean, consider the problem of co ed service members

749
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 3: on submarines, right, that was one of the last holdouts.

750
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 3: The Pentagon definitely historically pushed against inclusion in certain fighting forces.

751
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 3: The gosh, the Marines were very similar as well. And

752
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 3: we see more of these scandals, you know, like the

753
00:47:55,760 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: Aberdeen scandal, I think it's a full episode nineteen ninety six,

754
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 3: the USAF Academy scandal at two thousand and three, what

755
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 3: we're saying is the list goes on and on and on,

756
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 3: often with a very similar pattern of cover up and

757
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 3: eventual disclosure.

758
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there's an official Pentagon investigation over a lot

759
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 2: from like twenty twelve all the way to twenty eighteen,

760
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 2: and the Pentagon estimated that there were around twenty thousand

761
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 2: sexual assaults that occurred in that year, and that is

762
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 2: because there were a little over six thousand sexual assaults

763
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 2: reported by service members. So the estimation there is that

764
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 2: there are many more that occur. Only about six thousand

765
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 2: were reported, And of those twenty thousand assaults, the Pentagon

766
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 2: believes that around seventy five hundred of the victims in

767
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 2: those assaults were male.

768
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 4: So this is not a.

769
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 2: Male male or female thing. This is a culture thing, yes,

770
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 2: where power comes into play, where there's so much at

771
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 2: play here that is just beyond what you may imagine.

772
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 4: Well, it makes me think too of some of the

773
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 4: rhetoric around gay people serving openly in the military. How

774
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 4: the overarching sort of TACIT policy was don't ask, don't tell.

775
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 4: But of course there's things that are going on and

776
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 4: people that are being targeted, and perhaps people that are

777
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 4: closeted that are going to lash out in that way.

778
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 4: I think it's so important to mention the gender despair sure,

779
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 4: or the fact that it's not a gender specific thing.

780
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 3: No, as we'll see in just a moment here, going

781
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:37,399
Speaker 3: back to some of those reports, there are definitely male

782
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:42,919
Speaker 3: identifying victims. This all leads to a larger picture. This

783
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 3: is the grand conspiracy of these cover ups and this corruption.

784
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 3: As a result of the Gien case and growing public outcry,

785
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 3: the Secretary of the Army at the time, a guy

786
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 3: named Ryan D. McCarthy, said, we're going to have an

787
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 3: independent investigation December. We're jumping around in time. He announces

788
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 3: the results of this first independent investigation and says there

789
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:12,240
Speaker 3: is a quote permissive environment for sexual assault and sexual

790
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 3: harassment at Fort Hood. Then further says there were multiple

791
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 3: leadership failures. There were punishments for fourteen US commanders and

792
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 3: other leaders. And in the wake of this, Okay, these

793
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 3: investigations are important, it's crucial that they occur. But in

794
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 3: the wake of this, the public begins to learn that

795
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 3: these systemic issues, these secrets, have been open secrets internally

796
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 3: for quite some time. I'd love to recommend the journalist

797
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 3: Melenda Wenner Moyer, writing for New York Times in twenty

798
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:51,280
Speaker 3: twenty one, She cites reports finding nearly one and four

799
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,879
Speaker 3: US service women report being sexually assaulted during their time

800
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 3: in the military and the military leaders this is intergenerational, guys.

801
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 3: The military leaders have repeatedly promised reform and then just

802
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 3: never followed through. In twenty twenty one, women or female

803
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 3: identifying service members their distinct minority. We're talking about sixteen

804
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,279
Speaker 3: point five percent of the Armed services, but of that

805
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 3: sixteen point five percent, nearly one and four is harassed

806
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 3: or sexually assaulted.

807
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 4: It's insane, I mean.

808
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 3: More than half. From a meta study that will actually

809
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 3: ruin your day if you want to check it out,

810
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 3: published in twenty eighteen in a journal called Trauma, Violence

811
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 3: and Abuse, finds that more than half of serving female

812
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 3: identifying people are also reporting sexual harassment. And to our

813
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 3: earlier point, men are also reporting similar events, but they're

814
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 3: doing so at significantly lower rates. And one thing we

815
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 3: have to know here is the issue of reporting, right,

816
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 3: So it's quite possible that the numbers, I would say,

817
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 3: it's virtually certain that the numbers are much higher, and

818
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:17,919
Speaker 3: we're only looking at the people who actually did make

819
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 3: an official report. There was a twenty twelve survey from

820
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 3: the Pentagon itself that found in twenty twelve alone, twenty

821
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 3: six thousand men and women were sexually assaulted, and of

822
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 3: those assaults only like less than four thousand were officially reported.

823
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 3: This is a real conspiracy. This feels systemic. It doesn't

824
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:42,399
Speaker 3: feel case.

825
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 4: There's no question. It does feel that way. Yeah. No,

826
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 4: it's not one base, it's not one leader. Just yeah,

827
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,320
Speaker 4: it's it's inherent in the system. Well did that.

828
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 2: There's got to be there must be real fear. The

829
00:52:55,480 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 2: PBS report talks about and talks to a specific person, Lewis,

830
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 2: who was He's a former petty officer within the Navy,

831
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 2: and he talks about being raped at knife point by

832
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:12,319
Speaker 2: a superior officer and how horrific that was. And then

833
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 2: when he attempted to tell people and get help and

834
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 2: get justice about this, he got discharged. He got diagnosed

835
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 2: with a personality disorder by the Navy, and they let

836
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 2: him go. They like said, get out of here. He

837
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 2: got discharged and nothing ever happened to the person that

838
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 2: assaulted him.

839
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 4: You know, it reminds me a lot too of the

840
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 4: way police officers who report corruption within certain you know,

841
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 4: law enforcement agencies are treated the idea of being a

842
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 4: rat or something like that, and it does have a

843
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 4: very similar feel to it, and that does feel systemic.

844
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 3: Which is why no one likes eternal affairs or the

845
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 3: idea of violating the thin blue line. I've got a question,

846
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 3: you know, if we are to ask ourselves what causes

847
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 3: this actual systemic conspiracy, then a big part of it

848
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 3: seems to go down to the way these crimes get

849
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 3: investigated and prosecuted. This is something that's going to be

850
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 3: familiar to a lot of us in the audience. The

851
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 3: Uniform Code of Military Justice. This means that should a

852
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 3: service member commit a crime, military commanders, not civilian law enforcement,

853
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 3: decide whether to investigate and or pursue legal action. Of course,

854
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 3: so I mean this case to point there in this

855
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 3: case is showing the public not just other cases of

856
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 3: assault and cover ups, but it also shows us something positive,

857
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 3: something I hope we find inspiring a long running attempt

858
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 3: by other forces, the quote unquote good guys to reform

859
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 3: this system. I'm thinking of folks like Senator Kirsten Gillibrand

860
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 3: or Jilibrand, and this would this argument for years the

861
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 3: Senator was doing this. They were saying, Hey, take the

862
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 3: decision to prosecute major crimes, including sex crimes, away from

863
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 3: military command. Put it into the purview of independent prosecutors,

864
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 3: people who cannot be touched by the military power structure.

865
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 3: The Pentagon hated it, but.

866
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 4: Of course they did. Yeah, I just want to double

867
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 4: back down to what we said at the top of

868
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 4: the show and extend it even a step further. We

869
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 4: are also incredibly grateful for folks who serve and folks

870
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 4: who you know, serve in the armed forces and are

871
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 4: out there, you know, being the good guys. But it

872
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 4: just it's hard to hear stories like this and not

873
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 4: just you know, see the rot that's kind of inherent

874
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 4: in the system that does not necessarily extend to every

875
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 4: man and woman that wants to go out there and

876
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 4: do good. I don't think that's what we're saying. It's

877
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:00,399
Speaker 4: just important to kind of look at the whole thing

878
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 4: and take a holistic approach.

879
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 2: If you're interested in looking at some of the reforms

880
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 2: that have actually occurred over this long span, at least

881
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:14,879
Speaker 2: since nineteen ninety one, when Paula Coughlin spoke publicly let's

882
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 2: say about the tailhook incident. You can look to protect

883
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 2: our Defenders foundation. They've got an incredible timeline that you

884
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 2: can look to and see all of the tiny, little

885
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 2: small changes that have occurred, you know, when fits and starts,

886
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 2: and then some of the large sweeping changes that officially

887
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,399
Speaker 2: are in place now. Even though it doesn't it doesn't

888
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 2: seem to have changed fully the culture, But are there

889
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 2: are positive things that you can look to and specific

890
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 2: human beings as you were mentioning Ben who have done

891
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:46,479
Speaker 2: some good.

892
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and I didn't mean to sound too

893
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 4: hard on sleeve with what I was saying. Minutego. I

894
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 4: think what I just mean is that, you know, folks

895
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 4: who go put themselves out there to do this kind

896
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:01,799
Speaker 4: of service, they should not have to be terrified of

897
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 4: these types of outcomes, you know. And that's all I'm saying.

898
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely well said, and I think we're all saying that.

899
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:10,359
Speaker 3: I think we can all agree on that. I want

900
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 3: to go back to the reasoning we almost missed here

901
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 3: about the Pentagon statements needs to be said. The Pentagon

902
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 3: was opposed to reform of any sort outside of a

903
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 3: few isolated investigations because they said this sort of move

904
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 3: away from the UCMJ would quote have a detrimental impact

905
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 3: on the ability of commanders to ensure good order and

906
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:46,240
Speaker 3: discipline end quote. History proves, folks that this reasoning. Maybe

907
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 3: it's valid to some degree, but it's not enough to

908
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:53,919
Speaker 3: justify the horrors these survivors have faced. To that earlier point,

909
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 3: there have been some reforms, and very positive ones, things

910
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 3: like the im Vanessa Gee Act, parts of that became

911
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 3: law in December twenty twenty one. The chief among these

912
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 3: was criminalizing sexual harassment and removing the decision to prosecute

913
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 3: sexual misconduct cases they call them, from the chain of command.

914
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 3: And right now we are happy to report that the

915
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:30,479
Speaker 3: teams of independent prosecutors that were created from this act

916
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 3: have been pretty well received. They've been able to get

917
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 3: justice or survivors, because we don't like to use the

918
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 3: word victim, we like to use the word survivor. Yet again,

919
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 3: this is another thing we all agree on. Reform itself,

920
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 3: while positive, is not the same thing as fixing the

921
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 3: problem one hundred percent. So right now, as we're recording

922
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 3: tonight again March tenth, twenty twenty six, it is virtually

923
00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:00,120
Speaker 3: certain that many people in the armed forces, some of

924
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 3: whom are listening now have been the victims of assault

925
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 3: or sexual crime, have filed reports, have been stonewalled, or

926
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 3: never filed at all due to real possibilities of retaliation,

927
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 3: and the retaliation itself might never be acknowledged, it might

928
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 3: never be prosecuted. This is an ongoing conspiracy, and we

929
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 3: want to thank again all the service members and veterans

930
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 3: in the audience tonight. We also want to hear your thoughts,

931
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 3: especially if you have served in the military or military

932
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 3: adjacent fields. Have you encountered cover ups of this nature.

933
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 3: If so, what was or was not done? There's another

934
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 3: war looming on the horizon, you guys. Have you seen

935
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 3: the speculation about the return of the draft.

936
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 4: I saw some offhanded comments made about it, but I

937
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 4: also saw that, you know, it's kind of the war's over,

938
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 4: it's going to be done. Then there was never a

939
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 4: war in the first place, but it's a couple more

940
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 4: days in terms, so of course, yeah, I mean, it's

941
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 4: hard not to get stressed out about things like that.

942
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 4: And do let us know if you've had any of

943
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 4: these types of experiences, and of course we will keep

944
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 4: you anonymous.

945
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 3: And let us know. To the degree that you're comfortable

946
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 3: share your stories. We think we can agree. We can

947
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 3: conclusively say, right now when it comes to sexual assault,

948
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 3: there's something the military doesn't want you to know. Tell

949
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 3: us your thoughts please.

950
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 4: You can find us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff and

951
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 4: Conspiracy Stuff Show, depending on your social media platform of choice,

952
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 4: and you can also find us a few other ways.

953
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 2: We have a phone number. It is one eight three

954
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:37,439
Speaker 2: three STDWYTK. When you call in, give yourself a cool

955
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 2: nickname and let us know if we can use your

956
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 2: name and message on one of our listener mail episodes

957
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 2: that appear in the audio feed of this show. Find

958
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 2: those wherever you listen to audio feeds called podcasts. If

959
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 2: you want to send us an email, we are the

960
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 2: entities the.

961
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 3: Redeach piece of correspondence we receive, be well aware, yet unafraid.

962
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 3: Sometimes the void writes back. So hit us up with

963
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 3: your thoughts, hit us up for a random fact, or

964
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 3: give us one of your own. We'll see you out

965
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 3: here in the dark Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

966
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:31,240
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

967
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:35,880
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app.

968
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.