WEBVTT - Episode 4: Backbearings 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:07.240 Previously on Hot Money Very Fast. 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:12.080 Actually started then talking about his experience in Syria facilitated 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:16.320 by the boys, just after the recapture of the city 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:18.760 of Panira from Isis. 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.599 When he said with the boys, what did you. 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:24.439 Basically said with the Russians? 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:30.560 So is it that one? It's that one on the left, 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:39.519 those two great big gates there, it's fucking massive. 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:40.400 Yeah. 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:44.440 So we stood outside Prince Cageddonklasa. Well, the house on 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.920 Prince Cogeddon Tlaca belongs to the Master elect. It's tall, 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:52.120 it's snowing slowly through trees without leaves. It's a very 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:55.560 high fence, which is like a wrought iron fence that's 0:00:55.600 --> 0:01:02.080 thickly covered with ivy. In February, my producer Peggy and 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.480 I went to Yan Marslek's former residence in Munich, a 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:09.400 place he'd kept almost entirely secret. It's where he ran 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:13.920 his shadow life, his extra curricular world outside of Wirekat 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:19.360 sixty one Prince Rickenstrasse. Marcelek rented it for six hundred 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:23.559 and eighty thousand euros a year. Here he was occupying 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:29.560 one of the grandest residential buildings in Munich, which is 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:32.440 the wealthiest city in Germany and therefore possibly one of 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:38.560 the wealthiest cities in all of Europe. From the moment 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.640 I first became drawn into Yan masslex world, there's been 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:45.560 this huge paradox, and coming back to Munich, I'm hit 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:49.120 by it full force. We're on a street he's opposite 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:52.680 the Russian consulate, and down the road to various embassies 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:54.440 and other grand residences. 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:57.880 And I suppose, in so far as you would. 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:00.760 Assume that one of the prime objectives of most people 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:05.440 working in intelligence's discretion and to remain hidden, then one 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:10.840 wonders why he chose here a villa opposite the Russian consulate, 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:16.160 giving Paul those Novelchok documents, boasting about your relationships with 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:20.200 Russian mercenaries. How can you function as a spy, a 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:24.040 good spy if you're compelled to drop hints about being 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:24.840 one all the time. 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:26.720 I don't know. 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:31.320 It's a kind of almost like a Sharon Stone moment 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:34.560 from Basic Instinct. You know the plot of Basic Instinct 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:38.640 where she she murders her husband. But that's also the 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:40.840 plot of the book she's written, so it couldn't possibly 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:49.360 be true. One of my favorite books about espionage is 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:55.119 John Lecare's The Honorable Schoolboy six aka the Circus pick 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:59.160 up clues about Russian master spy Krla by looking back 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:03.440 in time. Through looking more closely at how they were 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:07.600 misled at the wreckage, the Circus find the traces of something, 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:12.040 a thread on which to pull. Pakai calls it taking 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.720 back bearings, and it feels to me like we need 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.920 to do something similar. So far, I've heard about three 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:25.560 radically different yan marslects, the corporate high flier, the fraudster, 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:31.280 and now the Russian agent. And yet even with that, 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.960 I have very little sense of who yan Marcelek really 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:39.720 is behind these identities, what makes up the substance of 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:44.680 his character, what motivates him. Motive, I think, is the 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.680 holy grail in this story, not only for what it 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:51.520 reveals about one man psychologically, but also what it might 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.320 help us glimpse about a whole worldview and those who 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:59.880 pursue it. And so in this episode, I track down 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:04.560 people who knew Marslek well, worked with him, closely, grew 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:08.600 up with him in his hometown, all to gather clues. 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.880 My name is Sam Jones from the Financial Times and 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:18.920 Pushkin Industries. This is Hot Money Season three, Agent of 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:34.600 Chaos episode four, Back Bearings. Jan Marcelek vanished five years 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:38.880 ago after Warkard was exposed as a massive fraud. He 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.840 hasn't been seen in public since, at least not under 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:46.400 his real name. At first, everyone thought Marcelek had gone 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:49.560 to the Philippines. He told colleagues he was going to 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:54.000 find Warcard's missing billions. But then the trail in Manila 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:59.800 went cold. People wondered whether he'd absconded to China. Rumours 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:04.640 world about his connections to Germany's intelligence services, to the Austrians, 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:09.520 to Israel. Perhaps he'd been taken into protective custody. But 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:13.440 these were all trails that Marcelek himself had quite deliberately 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:17.960 left behind. In reality, he'd taken a car over the 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:22.440 Alps to a village outside Vienna. Travel records show he'd 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:26.080 hopped on a plane to Minsk and from there had 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:29.159 gone on to Moscow. But even the people close to 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.240 him didn't know where he ended up. They were left 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.600 to figure things out for themselves. 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:40.479 Just talk us through. 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.760 When you then go into Prince against Vassa, what was 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:44.760 it like inside? 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:46.600 And what were you what was going through your head? 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:50.719 I was scared like toll I haven't told my wife. 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.679 I've told other people that I'm going there where I am. 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:58.920 It's two months after jan Marcelek's disappearance, and this man 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.599 we're going to call him mister Sampt, has gained access 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:03.200 to his house. 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.560 I had a phone in my socks and did not 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:08.680 know what to expect. 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:11.960 Mister Sampt has asked that we don't reveal his real 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:15.880 name as a condition of speaking with us, for professional reasons. 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:18.640 What I can tell you is that he's a high 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.839 level PR consultant hired by companies when they're in crisis. 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:27.880 Sumpt in German means velvet. It's the alias he has 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:32.160 chosen for himself. That day, Sumpt is with an ex 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:35.400 business partner of marcele X who knew about this place, 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:39.599 who was in fact a regular visitor. They snuck into 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:44.159 the house because well, they both have questions, I mean, who. 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:53.599 Doesn't so and we walked around and unbelievable. You walk 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:57.360 around and you see a parallel world. Yeah, this room 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:01.520 is sound proof. This room is searched every other week 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:09.200 by a specialist for microphones and surveillance stuff. You walk 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.160 around and wow, And then you see his bedroom, which 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:17.280 was a black and white painted room like a zebra, 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:23.600 with a mattress on the floor and black and white 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:29.080 bed sheets, not like a cozy bedroom. 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:33.680 The house is almost entirely empty, which is strange because 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.480 when mars Leac fled all he had with him were 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:40.280 two pieces of luggage. Someone must have cleared the house 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:44.960 out afterwards. There were just a few striking artifacts left behind. 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.239 I was impressed by his medical cabinet. It was a 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.520 normal door, looked in and out. Behind the door was 0:07:54.960 --> 0:08:01.080 forty centimeters deep in shelves full of medical stuff. And 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:04.880 because we're were in COVID at that time, everything to 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:10.720 fight a virus was there. This is a sedative, is virus, 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:14.400 this is the flu, and one was for diabetes. 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:18.400 It sounds to me like the private stash of someone 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:22.120 who never wanted to depend on public health care services, 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.000 or perhaps someone who never wanted to have to take 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:29.160 out a prescription in his own name. There are bottles 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:33.320 and bottles of Russian medicines. Sam's heart is still racing 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:37.040 and he's scared for a reason. As he looks out 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.959 the window from the room he was told was marce 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:44.640 Lex's office. There directly opposite the house is the Russian 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:49.680 Consulate and he's thinking, Jesus, could there even be a 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:57.080 tunnel between these buildings? Apart from Killian Kleinschmidt, who you 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.280 heard from in the last episode, Sampt is the only 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.120 person I've met who's been inside the Prince ri again 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:08.280 Shtasa house. He knew yan Marslek for about eighteen months, 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.880 but he knew him very well, or at least he 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.400 knew one side of him, and he knew him under pressure. 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:23.160 I'm hired sometimes awareness something smelly going on in how 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:27.439 to not avoid, but how to go through with it 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.240 and don't have too much damage. 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:35.400 Wakaard hired Sampt in twenty nineteen when my FT colleagues 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.000 Dan and Paul were beginning to reveal to the world 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.800 that the company was a fraud. Within days of joining, 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:47.080 Samt began working closely with Yan Marcelek. Sam prides himself 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:50.360 on his ability to read people, to watch them, and 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.680 to a certain extent, to be immune to their charms. 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:56.280 Can you describe him for us? 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:02.280 I noticed his friendliness do you want to drink something? 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:04.600 And then said yeah, I'll grab a cop Oh no, 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:08.880 please allow me to give you a coke and very formal, 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:19.640 polite German battla Geber so please you. 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:21.319 Yeah, almost elaborate with your kind indulgence. 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:26.640 You allow me to hand you a coke. You know 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:33.120 those headwaiters and Austrian restaurants, Yeah, oberber So, it to 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:35.040 me was the behavior of a head waiter. 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:38.960 When I think of an Austrian Oberkellner, I have a 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:44.559 specific thing in mind. Formal, sometimes stiffly so, maybe even 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:50.120 outwardly obsequious, but people totally in control of their own worlds. 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:54.200 In a Viennese cafe house, you are the guest of 0:10:54.280 --> 0:11:00.160 the head waiter. Sam soon found himself getting close to Marcelek. 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:05.840 He noticed his quirks. Marcelec ate chocolate constantly. He kept 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:09.880 a big box of lint carret little individually wrapped chocolate 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.440 squares in his office. The bin was always full of rappers, 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:17.720 and Sampt he would often bring him chocolate or sweets 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.640 on those visits. Sampt clocks the curious collection of objects 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.240 in marce Le's office, like a life size Donald Trump 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:31.679 cardboard cutout. For example, one day he asked another senior 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:33.320 wirecard executive. 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:37.079 Do you know about this life size Trump figure in 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:41.400 the office and in Marshal X Marshal's office and his 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:48.240 altar of Russian officers keps like Ushanka kind of yeah, yeah, 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:49.080 those heads. 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:53.120 The executive replies, yeah. 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:54.720 And no, I've never been in this office. Actually. 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:57.679 He also noticed that while so much of mars le 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:02.400 X world at work seemed neat precise, there was also 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:04.600 chaos kind of hidden away. 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:11.800 He put all the dirty cappuccino and all the dirty china. 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:16.280 He put it in the cupboard in his conference. 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:20.080 Room, not just a few cups, weeks and weeks and 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:21.160 weeks worth. 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.400 Of cups because he didn't want to see it. 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.440 He didn't want to see the mess. Yes, and it 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.520 was summer, so that was a biotope. 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:30.000 After a while, and. 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:35.160 The cleaning woman found it by accident because they were 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:40.840 missing so much china, and he just put it messy 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.640 like in this cupboard and in the back it was 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:44.920 already growing. 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.920 There were also times when Samt would catch glimpses of 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:53.840 Marcelet's personal life, like one night when it was quite 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:57.400 late and Marcelek had kept him waiting for a long time, 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:00.560 so long that Samt had had time to go out 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.040 to a nearby toy shop and buy him a present, 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:04.880 a Lego batmobile. 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:10.600 I like to play build Lego who does not. And 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:15.160 so I bought it and gave it to him as 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.400 a gift and said, here, that reminds me of you. 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:20.480 And he looked out Batman as said no, the. 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:25.240 Joker, Marcelet brushes off the gibe and eagerly opens the box. 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:30.200 We started building, and during that building he received like 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.200 fifteen ten to fifteen phone calls from his girlfriend and 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:35.760 his father who were in town and who were waiting 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:39.160 for him for dinner, but he didn't want to go. 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:42.720 He was sitting there with me. We were talking business 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:48.400 and he was building this batmobiles and then he said, yeah, 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:52.319 I'll come later and I'll join you later. And we 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:54.360 were sitting there. I was sitting on one end of 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:56.040 the conference tail, he was in on the other, and 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:59.960 we were rolling the car. But he clearly didn't didn't 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.240 want to go and spend. He clearly didn't want to go, 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.040 and I had the feeling that it was a difficult relationship. 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:09.160 And then there was the money. 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:13.400 I remember one time we went into a restaurant here 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:19.520 in Munich and I had a capacco real cauliflower, two 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:24.680 or three coke zero, and so my bill was less 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:29.560 than fifty euros, probably the whole bill was seven hundred something. 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:34.840 Marsade started with Cavia. He had all the classic oyster 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:40.960 whatever beefsticked Fiorentina, and this bottle of sparkling wine, and 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:43.560 it was a seven hundred and twenty euro bill and 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:47.920 he gave nine hundred. He tried to be humble, or 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:52.160 to give the picture of being a humble person devoted 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.240 to his job. On the other hand, paying everything cash 0:14:55.400 --> 0:15:01.240 and living a life that is in the high one 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:05.720 percent of Munich. Where does the money come from? That 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.400 was something that I always was questioning. 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:14.120 Myself, possibly thought Sampt. The early days of Wakad had 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:18.400 seen the company pay its executives huge bonuses before it listed. 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:22.440 But even that didn't quite account for Marclec's apparent wealth, 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.760 because it wasn't just flashy dinners. 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:30.400 He was invested with seven million into Telegram. 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:34.360 The messaging app founded in Russia. Marcelek was an early shareholder. 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:39.360 But when you only make a million before tex at wirecard, 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:45.360 you have to work fifteen years and eat ravioli from 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:52.720 cans and live in a very reduced lifestyle to save 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.360 up the money to invest like that in one single 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:56.240 direct investment. 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.560 And of course samt didn't even know at this point 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.800 about the palatial property on Prince Rigenstrasser that he found 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.560 out two months later after warecard blew up. Even though 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.400 they would often meet at a restaurant very close by, I. 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.560 Could have beaten myself. There's Kifa at a restaurant he 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:21.000 in Munich, and we met very often at the Kiefer restaurant, 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:27.200 and his secret office was like five hundred meters or 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:28.880 less than five hundred meters down the road. 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:34.080 After the day he'd poked around the villa, sumptualizes that really, 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.560 whatever he thought he confidently knew about Yan Marsilek is 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:41.240 barely anything substantial at all, and that in the eighteen 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:45.560 months they worked together, Marcelek's entire persona at Wakard was 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:49.600 effectively a lie. I needed to talk to someone who'd 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:53.080 known him for longer than SAMD. That's coming up after 0:16:53.120 --> 0:17:05.879 the break. Martin Ostelo first met Jan Marcelek when he 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:08.520 joined warkat almost sixteen years ago. 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:11.440 Young guy at the time. He was wearing a tea 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:15.479 shirt and jeans, had an impressive charisma about him. But 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:19.000 you never would have thought that this guy would be 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.480 the manageable company very quickly at the time. 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:26.720 Back then, in two thousand and five, Marcelek was just 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:30.400 twenty five. He hadn't been to university, he hadn't even 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:34.320 finished school. After joining the company five years earlier in 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:37.960 two thousand, he'd been quickly promoted, and by the time 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:40.960 Martin arrived at Warkat Marcelek was head of it. 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:48.040 Rhetorically, I already realized at that stage that he was very, 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.879 very good. He was like a hoover. He could take 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:58.679 information extremely quickly and formulate a summary, almost in a 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:03.040 fashion where you would lick your lips. Well, you'd love 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.520 to have that ability to quickly take something on board 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.320 and be able to express it in a form that seemed, 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.600 on the one hand, smart but still very very understandable 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:14.520 for a broad audience. 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.000 Martin says that Yan worked his way up the company 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:22.120 by bringing order and structure to what was otherwise a chaotic, 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:23.480 fast growing startup. 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.200 If you were the type of guy or girl to 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:29.679 say there's no structure of this, I can't do this, 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:32.560 you were out of the door very very quickly. If 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.640 you went in and said I can't do this yet, 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:38.640 how do I do it? Take ownership and do it yourself. 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.320 Those people exceled at wire card in the early days. 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:47.800 That's why probably Jan Maselek had an easy to climb 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.320 ladder because he was a doer. 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.520 And one thing he was particularly good at was charming people. 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.359 Sometimes it almost seemed like he was setting himself a 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:01.959 challenge to win someone to in side by doing something 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:04.120 like deliberately turning up late. 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.560 We had CEOs of very important companies and he would 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.800 just come twenty minutes late and still charm this individual 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:16.520 that they seemed like the best friends afterwards, where you 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:20.680 would think that would be inexcusable, but Ian had the 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:25.080 ability to turn things around. I think there really there 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:27.679 are traits that I have had strong envy for, but 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:32.359 I envied Ian so much because it seemed so damn 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:37.080 simple for him. He really mastered giving you the feeling 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.359 that you're important, despite the fact that you could figure 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:45.959 out over many, many years that it was a routine. 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:50.159 With his people skills, Jan was a good manager. He 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:54.080 became Martin's boss, and as you can hear, Martin really 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:55.240 liked him. 0:19:55.480 --> 0:20:01.680 Iyan had a broad spectrum of friendly to formally friendly. 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:04.840 So when, for example, when you went to young and 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:07.439 said do you have a minute, do you have a second. 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:09.800 He would always say for you always. 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:12.760 Which wasn't to say he didn't have edges. 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:18.560 I did have the feeling that he liked people or 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:21.800 didn't like people. In occasions when people got on his 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.840 bad side or showed him that they didn't like him, 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:31.160 he could be extremely ruthless is the only word I find. 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:35.800 Over time, Martin noticed that to get on with him 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:40.600 you needed, ultimately not to take things too seriously. Marcelet 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:43.680 liked to test people to see if they could hold 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:45.080 their own against him. 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:51.400 He did say things to shock and provoke people here 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:55.879 and there. He had a Vina Shmid sort of the 0:20:56.000 --> 0:21:00.640 Vienna joking, a playfulness, slayfulness, so he could get away 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:05.080 with murderers saying certain things. And you also have to 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:09.280 understand that he was in a circle of management where 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:16.800 making politically incorrect jokes was in fashion. I think Jan 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:22.119 he'd enjoy walking on a ledge and some people falling down. 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:31.040 So by the early twenty tens, Jan Masselek is a 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:35.760 hugely successful young corporate executive. He's basically the man running 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:39.080 this fast growing German company which is on its way 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:41.879 to a main market listing. He's a bit of a 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:47.200 Maverick and prefers action over rules. But whatever is striking 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:50.399 or unusual about Yan, it tends to get masked by 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:55.080 the fact that Moicade is also an unusual company. It 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:59.280 primarily processed payments for high risk industries. The business's other 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:01.840 payment processes in companies and banks were hesitant to get 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:07.440 wrapped up in like gaming, gambling and pawn although Walcatt 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:09.080 had a different way of describing that. 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:13.800 A dult content or emotional content as we would call it. 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:17.800 And over the coming years, Wakat's appetite for risk also 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:20.920 took it to countries where the rules of business were 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:22.120 more ambiguous. 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:26.280 I had heard before that he had several trips to Russia. 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:27.440 When would that have been. 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:33.600 That was four or five years maybe three, three to 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:35.439 five years before Wirecard Gillets, so. 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.840 Sort of twenty fifteen, twenty fourteen, fifteen sixteen, a round. 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:42.960 A bit later, yeah, yeah, fifteen sixteen. Yeah. But of 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:46.960 course we did build up Wirecard Russia in that time 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:54.159 as well, so it wasn't so surprising. 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:04.160 Just weeks before Wirecard collapsed, something surprising did happen, and 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:08.720 it chilled Martin Marcelet wanted to invest money in a 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:12.159 new company that was issuing credit cards. He needed the 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:16.800 board's approval. Martin and another colleague had run the numbers 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:19.600 on this company and they knew this investment was a 0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:23.720 bad idea. Right ahead of the crucial board meeting, they 0:23:23.800 --> 0:23:27.720 told marcelect that explicitly they gave him the figures on 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:35.280 the returns wirecard could expect. Martin remembers specifically what he said, long. 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:38.560 Term, the card project over the next decade, if it 0:23:38.640 --> 0:23:42.440 runs a decade, then it would potentially cover one point 0:23:42.960 --> 0:23:43.840 to five million. 0:23:44.880 --> 0:23:48.000 Yan took it all on board. There's no way he 0:23:48.040 --> 0:23:49.120 didn't know the numbers. 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:51.840 Martin says, Jan was very. 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:55.600 Very quick in understanding, and an hour later we are 0:23:55.640 --> 0:24:00.160 sitting in the meeting and he simply ignored what we said. 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:02.920 He said, the card project alone in the first year 0:24:03.280 --> 0:24:04.680 will covered the one point five. 0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:06.960 Million, with you in the room, with us in the 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:07.800 video conference. 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:11.280 So he just ignored what we had discussed. 0:24:11.560 --> 0:24:13.600 It's a very curious kind of game. 0:24:13.720 --> 0:24:17.000 You know, you're watching him do this, and obviously it's clear, 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:20.240 based on everything you understand about him until now, that 0:24:20.600 --> 0:24:23.520 he you know, is not stupid. He didn't mishear you. 0:24:23.600 --> 0:24:25.639 He didn't, you know, didn't lose the facts. 0:24:25.720 --> 0:24:31.240 We were flabbergasted, We were speechless. It had never happened 0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:34.960 like that. I mean, we were all important people in 0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:38.280 the company. It was like a puns in the face. 0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:45.720 What really comes across, as Martin recounts, this is just 0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:51.159 how effortlessly and easily Marcelect liede how confidently. It's like 0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:54.399 he knew he had Martin and his colleague under his thumb, 0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:58.000 and they wouldn't raise an objection. And I think that's 0:24:58.040 --> 0:25:01.400 what made it so shocking for Martin, because it obviously 0:25:01.520 --> 0:25:07.840 raised the question what else had Marcelet lied so bloodlessly about. Today, 0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:10.800 I think Martin is actually quite amused by everything that 0:25:10.840 --> 0:25:13.320 has happened. He tells me that part of the reason 0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:15.720 he decided to talk to me is that it's a 0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:18.960 kind of coping mechanism, which I think hints at how 0:25:19.160 --> 0:25:24.280 deeply the whole experience has affected him. The collapse of 0:25:24.320 --> 0:25:28.360 Wirecard and the revelations that Marcelect was a spy. They 0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:31.200 don't anger him, they sadden him. 0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:36.040 I think the biggest tragedy of young marcellek is he 0:25:36.119 --> 0:25:40.840 probably could have earned millions gazillions with his charm and 0:25:40.880 --> 0:25:44.960 his wit and his business of humen and his skills 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:49.240 that he didn't need to be what he turned out 0:25:49.280 --> 0:25:52.880 to be. That is really something that most people who 0:25:53.520 --> 0:25:57.400 work at Wargard or witnessed him. When discussing it afterwards, 0:25:57.680 --> 0:25:59.359 we all come to that point. 0:26:03.200 --> 0:26:06.640 When marcell x fraud at Wakaard was discovered, the company's 0:26:06.640 --> 0:26:10.440 stock went to zero and Martin's life savings were basically 0:26:10.520 --> 0:26:14.600 wiped out. For me, the remarkable thing is that despite that, 0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:18.280 Martin evidently still holds quite a lot of affection for 0:26:18.359 --> 0:26:19.240 his former boss. 0:26:20.280 --> 0:26:24.760 I often asked myself, now did I know the true 0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:28.920 jan at all? And how much of it was an act? 0:26:29.000 --> 0:26:32.320 How much was a genius, how much was in between? 0:26:32.480 --> 0:26:36.720 How much was learned, how much was instinctive? All these 0:26:36.800 --> 0:26:41.160 questions I really can't answer. I also asked myself when 0:26:41.280 --> 0:26:45.080 young wakes up in the morning, what he thinks now 0:26:45.880 --> 0:26:48.800 of all the contexts of all the employees. Was that 0:26:49.000 --> 0:26:52.200 all just a lie? At what stage was a lie? 0:26:52.359 --> 0:26:53.640 What was the turning point? 0:26:53.920 --> 0:26:56.320 If it was possible to wave a magic wands or whatever? 0:26:56.359 --> 0:26:58.560 Could you imagine going for a drink with him or 0:26:58.600 --> 0:26:59.200 dinner with him? 0:26:59.200 --> 0:26:59.400