1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Previously on Hot Money Very Fast. 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 2: Actually started then talking about his experience in Syria facilitated 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 2: by the boys, just after the recapture of the city 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 2: of Panira from Isis. 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: When he said with the boys, what did you. 6 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 3: Basically said with the Russians? 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 4: So is it that one? It's that one on the left, 8 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 4: those two great big gates there, it's fucking massive. 9 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 10 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 4: So we stood outside Prince Cageddonklasa. Well, the house on 11 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 4: Prince Cogeddon Tlaca belongs to the Master elect. It's tall, 12 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 4: it's snowing slowly through trees without leaves. It's a very 13 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 4: high fence, which is like a wrought iron fence that's 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 4: thickly covered with ivy. In February, my producer Peggy and 15 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 4: I went to Yan Marslek's former residence in Munich, a 16 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 4: place he'd kept almost entirely secret. It's where he ran 17 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 4: his shadow life, his extra curricular world outside of Wirekat 18 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 4: sixty one Prince Rickenstrasse. Marcelek rented it for six hundred 19 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,559 Speaker 4: and eighty thousand euros a year. Here he was occupying 20 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 4: one of the grandest residential buildings in Munich, which is 21 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 4: the wealthiest city in Germany and therefore possibly one of 22 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 4: the wealthiest cities in all of Europe. From the moment 23 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 4: I first became drawn into Yan masslex world, there's been 24 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 4: this huge paradox, and coming back to Munich, I'm hit 25 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 4: by it full force. We're on a street he's opposite 26 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 4: the Russian consulate, and down the road to various embassies 27 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 4: and other grand residences. 28 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: And I suppose, in so far as you would. 29 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 4: Assume that one of the prime objectives of most people 30 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 4: working in intelligence's discretion and to remain hidden, then one 31 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 4: wonders why he chose here a villa opposite the Russian consulate, 32 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 4: giving Paul those Novelchok documents, boasting about your relationships with 33 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 4: Russian mercenaries. How can you function as a spy, a 34 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 4: good spy if you're compelled to drop hints about being 35 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 4: one all the time. 36 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: I don't know. 37 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 4: It's a kind of almost like a Sharon Stone moment 38 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 4: from Basic Instinct. You know the plot of Basic Instinct 39 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 4: where she she murders her husband. But that's also the 40 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 4: plot of the book she's written, so it couldn't possibly 41 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 4: be true. One of my favorite books about espionage is 42 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:55,119 Speaker 4: John Lecare's The Honorable Schoolboy six aka the Circus pick 43 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 4: up clues about Russian master spy Krla by looking back 44 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 4: in time. Through looking more closely at how they were 45 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 4: misled at the wreckage, the Circus find the traces of something, 46 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 4: a thread on which to pull. Pakai calls it taking 47 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 4: back bearings, and it feels to me like we need 48 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 4: to do something similar. So far, I've heard about three 49 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 4: radically different yan marslects, the corporate high flier, the fraudster, 50 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 4: and now the Russian agent. And yet even with that, 51 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 4: I have very little sense of who yan Marcelek really 52 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 4: is behind these identities, what makes up the substance of 53 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 4: his character, what motivates him. Motive, I think, is the 54 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 4: holy grail in this story, not only for what it 55 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 4: reveals about one man psychologically, but also what it might 56 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 4: help us glimpse about a whole worldview and those who 57 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 4: pursue it. And so in this episode, I track down 58 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 4: people who knew Marslek well, worked with him, closely, grew 59 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 4: up with him in his hometown, all to gather clues. 60 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 4: My name is Sam Jones from the Financial Times and 61 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 4: Pushkin Industries. This is Hot Money Season three, Agent of 62 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 4: Chaos episode four, Back Bearings. Jan Marcelek vanished five years 63 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 4: ago after Warkard was exposed as a massive fraud. He 64 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 4: hasn't been seen in public since, at least not under 65 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 4: his real name. At first, everyone thought Marcelek had gone 66 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 4: to the Philippines. He told colleagues he was going to 67 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 4: find Warcard's missing billions. But then the trail in Manila 68 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 4: went cold. People wondered whether he'd absconded to China. Rumours 69 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 4: world about his connections to Germany's intelligence services, to the Austrians, 70 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 4: to Israel. Perhaps he'd been taken into protective custody. But 71 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 4: these were all trails that Marcelek himself had quite deliberately 72 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 4: left behind. In reality, he'd taken a car over the 73 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 4: Alps to a village outside Vienna. Travel records show he'd 74 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 4: hopped on a plane to Minsk and from there had 75 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 4: gone on to Moscow. But even the people close to 76 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 4: him didn't know where he ended up. They were left 77 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 4: to figure things out for themselves. 78 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 1: Just talk us through. 79 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 4: When you then go into Prince against Vassa, what was 80 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 4: it like inside? 81 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: And what were you what was going through your head? 82 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 3: I was scared like toll I haven't told my wife. 83 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,679 Speaker 3: I've told other people that I'm going there where I am. 84 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 4: It's two months after jan Marcelek's disappearance, and this man 85 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 4: we're going to call him mister Sampt, has gained access 86 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 4: to his house. 87 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 3: I had a phone in my socks and did not 88 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 3: know what to expect. 89 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 4: Mister Sampt has asked that we don't reveal his real 90 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 4: name as a condition of speaking with us, for professional reasons. 91 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 4: What I can tell you is that he's a high 92 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 4: level PR consultant hired by companies when they're in crisis. 93 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 4: Sumpt in German means velvet. It's the alias he has 94 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 4: chosen for himself. That day, Sumpt is with an ex 95 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 4: business partner of marcele X who knew about this place, 96 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 4: who was in fact a regular visitor. They snuck into 97 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 4: the house because well, they both have questions, I mean, who. 98 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 3: Doesn't so and we walked around and unbelievable. You walk 99 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 3: around and you see a parallel world. Yeah, this room 100 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 3: is sound proof. This room is searched every other week 101 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 3: by a specialist for microphones and surveillance stuff. You walk 102 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 3: around and wow, And then you see his bedroom, which 103 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 3: was a black and white painted room like a zebra, 104 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 3: with a mattress on the floor and black and white 105 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 3: bed sheets, not like a cozy bedroom. 106 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 4: The house is almost entirely empty, which is strange because 107 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 4: when mars Leac fled all he had with him were 108 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 4: two pieces of luggage. Someone must have cleared the house 109 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 4: out afterwards. There were just a few striking artifacts left behind. 110 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,239 Speaker 3: I was impressed by his medical cabinet. It was a 111 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 3: normal door, looked in and out. Behind the door was 112 00:07:54,960 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 3: forty centimeters deep in shelves full of medical stuff. And 113 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 3: because we're were in COVID at that time, everything to 114 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 3: fight a virus was there. This is a sedative, is virus, 115 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 3: this is the flu, and one was for diabetes. 116 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 4: It sounds to me like the private stash of someone 117 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 4: who never wanted to depend on public health care services, 118 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 4: or perhaps someone who never wanted to have to take 119 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 4: out a prescription in his own name. There are bottles 120 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 4: and bottles of Russian medicines. Sam's heart is still racing 121 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 4: and he's scared for a reason. As he looks out 122 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 4: the window from the room he was told was marce 123 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 4: Lex's office. There directly opposite the house is the Russian 124 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 4: Consulate and he's thinking, Jesus, could there even be a 125 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 4: tunnel between these buildings? Apart from Killian Kleinschmidt, who you 126 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 4: heard from in the last episode, Sampt is the only 127 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 4: person I've met who's been inside the Prince ri again 128 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 4: Shtasa house. He knew yan Marslek for about eighteen months, 129 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 4: but he knew him very well, or at least he 130 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 4: knew one side of him, and he knew him under pressure. 131 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 3: I'm hired sometimes awareness something smelly going on in how 132 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 3: to not avoid, but how to go through with it 133 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 3: and don't have too much damage. 134 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 4: Wakaard hired Sampt in twenty nineteen when my FT colleagues 135 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 4: Dan and Paul were beginning to reveal to the world 136 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 4: that the company was a fraud. Within days of joining, 137 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 4: Samt began working closely with Yan Marcelek. Sam prides himself 138 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 4: on his ability to read people, to watch them, and 139 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 4: to a certain extent, to be immune to their charms. 140 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: Can you describe him for us? 141 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 3: I noticed his friendliness do you want to drink something? 142 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 3: And then said yeah, I'll grab a cop Oh no, 143 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 3: please allow me to give you a coke and very formal, 144 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 3: polite German battla Geber so please you. 145 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, almost elaborate with your kind indulgence. 146 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 3: You allow me to hand you a coke. You know 147 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 3: those headwaiters and Austrian restaurants, Yeah, oberber So, it to 148 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 3: me was the behavior of a head waiter. 149 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 4: When I think of an Austrian Oberkellner, I have a 150 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:44,559 Speaker 4: specific thing in mind. Formal, sometimes stiffly so, maybe even 151 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 4: outwardly obsequious, but people totally in control of their own worlds. 152 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 4: In a Viennese cafe house, you are the guest of 153 00:10:54,280 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 4: the head waiter. Sam soon found himself getting close to Marcelek. 154 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 4: He noticed his quirks. Marcelec ate chocolate constantly. He kept 155 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 4: a big box of lint carret little individually wrapped chocolate 156 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 4: squares in his office. The bin was always full of rappers, 157 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 4: and Sampt he would often bring him chocolate or sweets 158 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 4: on those visits. Sampt clocks the curious collection of objects 159 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 4: in marce Le's office, like a life size Donald Trump 160 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 4: cardboard cutout. For example, one day he asked another senior 161 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 4: wirecard executive. 162 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 5: Do you know about this life size Trump figure in 163 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 5: the office and in Marshal X Marshal's office and his 164 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 5: altar of Russian officers keps like Ushanka kind of yeah, yeah, 165 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 5: those heads. 166 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 4: The executive replies, yeah. 167 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 3: And no, I've never been in this office. Actually. 168 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 4: He also noticed that while so much of mars le 169 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 4: X world at work seemed neat precise, there was also 170 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 4: chaos kind of hidden away. 171 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 3: He put all the dirty cappuccino and all the dirty china. 172 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 3: He put it in the cupboard in his conference. 173 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 4: Room, not just a few cups, weeks and weeks and 174 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 4: weeks worth. 175 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: Of cups because he didn't want to see it. 176 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 3: He didn't want to see the mess. Yes, and it 177 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 3: was summer, so that was a biotope. 178 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: After a while, and. 179 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 3: The cleaning woman found it by accident because they were 180 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 3: missing so much china, and he just put it messy 181 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 3: like in this cupboard and in the back it was 182 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 3: already growing. 183 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 4: There were also times when Samt would catch glimpses of 184 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 4: Marcelet's personal life, like one night when it was quite 185 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 4: late and Marcelek had kept him waiting for a long time, 186 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 4: so long that Samt had had time to go out 187 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 4: to a nearby toy shop and buy him a present, 188 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 4: a Lego batmobile. 189 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 3: I like to play build Lego who does not. And 190 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 3: so I bought it and gave it to him as 191 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 3: a gift and said, here, that reminds me of you. 192 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 3: And he looked out Batman as said no, the. 193 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 4: Joker, Marcelet brushes off the gibe and eagerly opens the box. 194 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 3: We started building, and during that building he received like 195 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 3: fifteen ten to fifteen phone calls from his girlfriend and 196 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 3: his father who were in town and who were waiting 197 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 3: for him for dinner, but he didn't want to go. 198 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 3: He was sitting there with me. We were talking business 199 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 3: and he was building this batmobiles and then he said, yeah, 200 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 3: I'll come later and I'll join you later. And we 201 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 3: were sitting there. I was sitting on one end of 202 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 3: the conference tail, he was in on the other, and 203 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 3: we were rolling the car. But he clearly didn't didn't 204 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 3: want to go and spend. He clearly didn't want to go, 205 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: and I had the feeling that it was a difficult relationship. 206 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: And then there was the money. 207 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 3: I remember one time we went into a restaurant here 208 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 3: in Munich and I had a capacco real cauliflower, two 209 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 3: or three coke zero, and so my bill was less 210 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 3: than fifty euros, probably the whole bill was seven hundred something. 211 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 3: Marsade started with Cavia. He had all the classic oyster 212 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 3: whatever beefsticked Fiorentina, and this bottle of sparkling wine, and 213 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 3: it was a seven hundred and twenty euro bill and 214 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 3: he gave nine hundred. He tried to be humble, or 215 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 3: to give the picture of being a humble person devoted 216 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 3: to his job. On the other hand, paying everything cash 217 00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 3: and living a life that is in the high one 218 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 3: percent of Munich. Where does the money come from? That 219 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 3: was something that I always was questioning. 220 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 4: Myself, possibly thought Sampt. The early days of Wakad had 221 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 4: seen the company pay its executives huge bonuses before it listed. 222 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 4: But even that didn't quite account for Marclec's apparent wealth, 223 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 4: because it wasn't just flashy dinners. 224 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 3: He was invested with seven million into Telegram. 225 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 4: The messaging app founded in Russia. Marcelek was an early shareholder. 226 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 3: But when you only make a million before tex at wirecard, 227 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 3: you have to work fifteen years and eat ravioli from 228 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 3: cans and live in a very reduced lifestyle to save 229 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 3: up the money to invest like that in one single 230 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 3: direct investment. 231 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 4: And of course samt didn't even know at this point 232 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 4: about the palatial property on Prince Rigenstrasser that he found 233 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 4: out two months later after warecard blew up. Even though 234 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 4: they would often meet at a restaurant very close by, I. 235 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 3: Could have beaten myself. There's Kifa at a restaurant he 236 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 3: in Munich, and we met very often at the Kiefer restaurant, 237 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 3: and his secret office was like five hundred meters or 238 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 3: less than five hundred meters down the road. 239 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 4: After the day he'd poked around the villa, sumptualizes that really, 240 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 4: whatever he thought he confidently knew about Yan Marsilek is 241 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 4: barely anything substantial at all, and that in the eighteen 242 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 4: months they worked together, Marcelek's entire persona at Wakard was 243 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 4: effectively a lie. I needed to talk to someone who'd 244 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 4: known him for longer than SAMD. That's coming up after 245 00:16:53,120 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 4: the break. Martin Ostelo first met Jan Marcelek when he 246 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 4: joined warkat almost sixteen years ago. 247 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 6: Young guy at the time. He was wearing a tea 248 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,479 Speaker 6: shirt and jeans, had an impressive charisma about him. But 249 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 6: you never would have thought that this guy would be 250 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 6: the manageable company very quickly at the time. 251 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 4: Back then, in two thousand and five, Marcelek was just 252 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 4: twenty five. He hadn't been to university, he hadn't even 253 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 4: finished school. After joining the company five years earlier in 254 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 4: two thousand, he'd been quickly promoted, and by the time 255 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 4: Martin arrived at Warkat Marcelek was head of it. 256 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 6: Rhetorically, I already realized at that stage that he was very, 257 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 6: very good. He was like a hoover. He could take 258 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 6: information extremely quickly and formulate a summary, almost in a 259 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 6: fashion where you would lick your lips. Well, you'd love 260 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 6: to have that ability to quickly take something on board 261 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 6: and be able to express it in a form that seemed, 262 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 6: on the one hand, smart but still very very understandable 263 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 6: for a broad audience. 264 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 4: Martin says that Yan worked his way up the company 265 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 4: by bringing order and structure to what was otherwise a chaotic, 266 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 4: fast growing startup. 267 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 6: If you were the type of guy or girl to 268 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 6: say there's no structure of this, I can't do this, 269 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 6: you were out of the door very very quickly. If 270 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 6: you went in and said I can't do this yet, 271 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 6: how do I do it? Take ownership and do it yourself. 272 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 6: Those people exceled at wire card in the early days. 273 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 6: That's why probably Jan Maselek had an easy to climb 274 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 6: ladder because he was a doer. 275 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 4: And one thing he was particularly good at was charming people. 276 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 4: Sometimes it almost seemed like he was setting himself a 277 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,959 Speaker 4: challenge to win someone to in side by doing something 278 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 4: like deliberately turning up late. 279 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 6: We had CEOs of very important companies and he would 280 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 6: just come twenty minutes late and still charm this individual 281 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 6: that they seemed like the best friends afterwards, where you 282 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 6: would think that would be inexcusable, but Ian had the 283 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 6: ability to turn things around. I think there really there 284 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 6: are traits that I have had strong envy for, but 285 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 6: I envied Ian so much because it seemed so damn 286 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 6: simple for him. He really mastered giving you the feeling 287 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 6: that you're important, despite the fact that you could figure 288 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:45,959 Speaker 6: out over many, many years that it was a routine. 289 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 4: With his people skills, Jan was a good manager. He 290 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 4: became Martin's boss, and as you can hear, Martin really 291 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 4: liked him. 292 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 6: Iyan had a broad spectrum of friendly to formally friendly. 293 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 6: So when, for example, when you went to young and 294 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 6: said do you have a minute, do you have a second. 295 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 6: He would always say for you always. 296 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 4: Which wasn't to say he didn't have edges. 297 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 6: I did have the feeling that he liked people or 298 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 6: didn't like people. In occasions when people got on his 299 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 6: bad side or showed him that they didn't like him, 300 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 6: he could be extremely ruthless is the only word I find. 301 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 4: Over time, Martin noticed that to get on with him 302 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 4: you needed, ultimately not to take things too seriously. Marcelet 303 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 4: liked to test people to see if they could hold 304 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 4: their own against him. 305 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 6: He did say things to shock and provoke people here 306 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 6: and there. He had a Vina Shmid sort of the 307 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 6: Vienna joking, a playfulness, slayfulness, so he could get away 308 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 6: with murderers saying certain things. And you also have to 309 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 6: understand that he was in a circle of management where 310 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 6: making politically incorrect jokes was in fashion. I think Jan 311 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 6: he'd enjoy walking on a ledge and some people falling down. 312 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 4: So by the early twenty tens, Jan Masselek is a 313 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 4: hugely successful young corporate executive. He's basically the man running 314 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 4: this fast growing German company which is on its way 315 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 4: to a main market listing. He's a bit of a 316 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 4: Maverick and prefers action over rules. But whatever is striking 317 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 4: or unusual about Yan, it tends to get masked by 318 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 4: the fact that Moicade is also an unusual company. It 319 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 4: primarily processed payments for high risk industries. The business's other 320 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 4: payment processes in companies and banks were hesitant to get 321 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 4: wrapped up in like gaming, gambling and pawn although Walcatt 322 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 4: had a different way of describing that. 323 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 6: A dult content or emotional content as we would call it. 324 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 4: And over the coming years, Wakat's appetite for risk also 325 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 4: took it to countries where the rules of business were 326 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 4: more ambiguous. 327 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 6: I had heard before that he had several trips to Russia. 328 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 3: When would that have been. 329 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 6: That was four or five years maybe three, three to 330 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 6: five years before Wirecard Gillets, so. 331 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 4: Sort of twenty fifteen, twenty fourteen, fifteen sixteen, a round. 332 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 6: A bit later, yeah, yeah, fifteen sixteen. Yeah. But of 333 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 6: course we did build up Wirecard Russia in that time 334 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 6: as well, so it wasn't so surprising. 335 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 4: Just weeks before Wirecard collapsed, something surprising did happen, and 336 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 4: it chilled Martin Marcelet wanted to invest money in a 337 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 4: new company that was issuing credit cards. He needed the 338 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 4: board's approval. Martin and another colleague had run the numbers 339 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 4: on this company and they knew this investment was a 340 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 4: bad idea. Right ahead of the crucial board meeting, they 341 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 4: told marcelect that explicitly they gave him the figures on 342 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 4: the returns wirecard could expect. Martin remembers specifically what he said, long. 343 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 6: Term, the card project over the next decade, if it 344 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 6: runs a decade, then it would potentially cover one point 345 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 6: to five million. 346 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 4: Yan took it all on board. There's no way he 347 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 4: didn't know the numbers. 348 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: Martin says, Jan was very. 349 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 6: Very quick in understanding, and an hour later we are 350 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,160 Speaker 6: sitting in the meeting and he simply ignored what we said. 351 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 6: He said, the card project alone in the first year 352 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 6: will covered the one point five. 353 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: Million, with you in the room, with us in the 354 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: video conference. 355 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 6: So he just ignored what we had discussed. 356 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: It's a very curious kind of game. 357 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 4: You know, you're watching him do this, and obviously it's clear, 358 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 4: based on everything you understand about him until now, that 359 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 4: he you know, is not stupid. He didn't mishear you. 360 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 4: He didn't, you know, didn't lose the facts. 361 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 6: We were flabbergasted, We were speechless. It had never happened 362 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 6: like that. I mean, we were all important people in 363 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 6: the company. It was like a puns in the face. 364 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 4: What really comes across, as Martin recounts, this is just 365 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 4: how effortlessly and easily Marcelect liede how confidently. It's like 366 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 4: he knew he had Martin and his colleague under his thumb, 367 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 4: and they wouldn't raise an objection. And I think that's 368 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 4: what made it so shocking for Martin, because it obviously 369 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 4: raised the question what else had Marcelet lied so bloodlessly about. Today, 370 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 4: I think Martin is actually quite amused by everything that 371 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 4: has happened. He tells me that part of the reason 372 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 4: he decided to talk to me is that it's a 373 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 4: kind of coping mechanism, which I think hints at how 374 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 4: deeply the whole experience has affected him. The collapse of 375 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 4: Wirecard and the revelations that Marcelect was a spy. They 376 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 4: don't anger him, they sadden him. 377 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 6: I think the biggest tragedy of young marcellek is he 378 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 6: probably could have earned millions gazillions with his charm and 379 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 6: his wit and his business of humen and his skills 380 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 6: that he didn't need to be what he turned out 381 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 6: to be. That is really something that most people who 382 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 6: work at Wargard or witnessed him. When discussing it afterwards, 383 00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 6: we all come to that point. 384 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 4: When marcell x fraud at Wakaard was discovered, the company's 385 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 4: stock went to zero and Martin's life savings were basically 386 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 4: wiped out. For me, the remarkable thing is that despite that, 387 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 4: Martin evidently still holds quite a lot of affection for 388 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 4: his former boss. 389 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 6: I often asked myself, now did I know the true 390 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 6: jan at all? And how much of it was an act? 391 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 6: How much was a genius, how much was in between? 392 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 6: How much was learned, how much was instinctive? All these 393 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 6: questions I really can't answer. I also asked myself when 394 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 6: young wakes up in the morning, what he thinks now 395 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 6: of all the contexts of all the employees. Was that 396 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 6: all just a lie? At what stage was a lie? 397 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 6: What was the turning point? 398 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 4: If it was possible to wave a magic wands or whatever? 399 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 4: Could you imagine going for a drink with him or 400 00:26:58,600 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 4: dinner with him? 401 00:26:59,200 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 3: Now? 402 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 6: And Oh yeah, actually I think I would love to 403 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 6: do that. Actually, I have thought about getting into Moscow 404 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 6: and seeing if I could organize it. I was thinking 405 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 6: one could try that. 406 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: Why haven't you? 407 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,719 Speaker 6: I mean, honest truce is, would you have the balls 408 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 6: to actually go to Moscow? And I feel that, you know, 409 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 6: endangering yourself and your family that probably if I had 410 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 6: a guarantee that I would not be touched. I'd love 411 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 6: to get his side on this. 412 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 4: Martin says he feels certain there must have been a 413 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 4: point where something in marce Lex's life went quite wrong 414 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 4: to set him on the path he took, but when 415 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 4: he thinks back, he really can't say exactly when that 416 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 4: might have been. Martin realizes that Marcelet could talk, he 417 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 4: could charm, he could hold court, he could make you 418 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 4: feel like you were his clothes friend, but actually he 419 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 4: almost never revealed anything about his life directly at all. 420 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 4: What he did at home or where he had come from. 421 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 6: His whole youth is a complete blank. He never spoke 422 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 6: of that, nor did he speak of Vienna in his youth, 423 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 6: which is quite remarkable, because I mean, I would have 424 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 6: felt like I'd had a lot of personal talks with him, 425 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 6: But only later did I realize he said a lot, 426 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 6: but he didn't really give an insight of his past 427 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 6: at all. 428 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 4: A few months ago, I traveled to a small Austrian 429 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 4: town called Kloster Neuberg. It's just outside Vienna Cluster. Neuberg 430 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 4: is dominated by a huge monastery on a hill at 431 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 4: its center. It's home to about twenty eight thousand people, 432 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 4: and it's the place where Yan Marcelect grew up. In 433 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 4: the town hall cafe, I meet up with four people 434 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 4: who knew Yan as a child. Rudolf Koch rustles up 435 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 4: some Vellingta black coffees. He used to be the head 436 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 4: master of the local secondary school, Marcelex School, and he's 437 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 4: brought along another teacher, Bruno, and two of marcele X's classmates, 438 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 4: Verena and Philip. We all sit down around the table together. 439 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 4: I hope they might be able to tell me something 440 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 4: about Yan Marcelect before Wakard, about the experiences that formed 441 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 4: him as an adult. This is the first time that Philip, 442 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 4: Rudolph and Bruno have spoken to the press about Marcelek. 443 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 4: When Wakard went down and Marcelek went on the run, 444 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 4: it was a shock. 445 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 3: Top ten white collar crime of y. 446 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 6: And financier from Lubushop Vad and me and as. 447 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 4: As Philip runs down the list of Jan's exploits, he 448 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 4: says it sounds like a bad James. 449 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 3: Bond plot, essentially James Bond Blood. 450 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 4: Rudolph shows me and my producer Peggy and old school yearbook. 451 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: Oh wow, lots more hair. 452 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 4: Yeah. In the picture, Yana is in the front row, 453 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 4: crouched down, almost ready to spring up again. He's looking 454 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 4: directly at the camera, arm resting on one knee, fingers 455 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 4: laced together. There's maybe twenty other students in the class. 456 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 4: They all look like classic teenagers, awkward in their own bodies. Yan, 457 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 4: though he looks very at ease. It would, of course 458 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 4: be totally stupid to expect to see signs of a criminal, 459 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 4: treasonous future in an old school photo. But this, this 460 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 4: isn't exactly what I expected either, I learned. Yan actually 461 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 4: began his schooling at a less in Vienna, a French 462 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 4: private school, before moving back to the local school in 463 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 4: Klosterneuburg when he was twelve, and because of his time 464 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 4: at the Lise, Yan was fluent in French. Philip, his 465 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 4: former classmate, remembers a time when their French class was 466 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 4: being taught by a supply teacher, a sub and Jan 467 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 4: just stood up and said he was leaving. The teacher was, 468 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 4: of course totally taken aback, but when they tried to 469 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 4: put him in his place, Yan answered with a five 470 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 4: minute monologue in flawless. 471 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 6: French and. 472 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 3: Totally baffled. 473 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 4: Yan must have gone to the place he always went 474 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 4: whenever he could skip a lesson. In fact, where he 475 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 4: went even in the minutes between lessons, to the library. 476 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 4: And that's where he got to know Bruno. 477 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 3: I mena active and said I'm going to skip Nazi mid. 478 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 4: Bruno taught history, German and philosophy, and he also looked 479 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 4: after the school library. Soon after Yan joined the school, 480 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 4: the head of it told Bruno that Marcelek was his 481 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 4: star pupil and suggested he could help with the new 482 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 4: computer system the library had got. So Jan became Bruno's helper. 483 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 4: Bruno says that it couldn't have run smoothly without him. 484 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 6: On Jan mats l. 485 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 4: In fact, when everyone here thinks of Jan back then, 486 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 4: they picture him sat in front of the computer in 487 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 4: the library. He was obsessed with it and with learning 488 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 4: about this new thing called the internet. Jan was certainly 489 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 4: different from other fifteen year olds who were more likely 490 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 4: to be skateboarding or playing football outside. 491 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 6: He had the imkiful as eston Avaksen and the aston fineering. 492 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 4: Philip says, it was like they were all still children 493 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 4: and was somehow not. He seemed more like a fully 494 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 4: grown adult already. But you haven't, Na says he was 495 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 4: maybe aloof but definitely not arrogant blink of. 496 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 2: In cambem I need to f. 497 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 4: Yet other kids admired him, and the teachers well, the thing, 498 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 4: Philip remembers them saying, is be more like Yan. 499 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 3: What is his name? So? 500 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 4: I wonder if his teachers knew about his strategy to 501 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 4: avoid washing his socks. 502 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 6: Well the Abbots said for this washing to Soten. 503 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 3: Samoning. 504 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 4: Philip says that one day Yan announced he had done 505 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 4: a cost benefit analysis and he would never wash a 506 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 4: pair of socks again. Calculating the value of his labor 507 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 4: and time in washing, drying, and folding the sock, he 508 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 4: decided it was cheaper just to take out a subscription 509 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 4: and have new pairs constantly delivered. It sounds almost like 510 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 4: Yan enjoyed being unconventional in making decisions and crucially for me, 511 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 4: telling people about those decisions that seemed to expose or 512 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 4: undermine the sense of what others thought of as being normal. 513 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 4: If Yan liked computers and enjoyed being a typical he 514 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 4: wasn't a loner, though, says Verena. Far from it. He 515 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,439 Speaker 4: had a wide group of friends and she was part 516 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 4: of it. And yet she also remembers that Yan never 517 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 4: socialized outside of school. He never took friends home. He 518 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 4: had a very private side to his life. 519 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 6: His actor had on z prevad umfertin is thus bobbedcap 520 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 6: mitk Norman or a Mitklasen as I saw. 521 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 4: Verena uses this German word schreg to describe him, which 522 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 4: you might say means a skew set at a different 523 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 4: angle to the rest of the world. Jan was a 524 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 4: straight a student, but in his last year, two weeks 525 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,280 Speaker 4: before he was due to sit his final high school exams, 526 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 4: he received a job offer from a tech company in Vienna. 527 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 4: He accepted and he told his schoolmates he was leaving immediately. 528 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 4: He wasn't going to bother with the exams androns. 529 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 3: And again he's a jam pistols. 530 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 4: Everyone thinks he's daft leaving at the eleventh hour. You've 531 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 4: got to have a lot of self belief or maybe 532 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 4: self delusion to do something like that aged seventeen. Think 533 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 4: back to how important exam results seem to you at 534 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 4: that age. I can remember believing my whole future depended 535 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 4: on them. Rudolph jumps in to offer an explanation. 536 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: SI. 537 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 4: He says that the job offer was very, very lucrative. 538 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 4: But all four of them also suggest another possible reason 539 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 4: why Yan so keen to leave Kloster Neuberg. I asked 540 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,320 Speaker 4: about Yan's family. He has a younger sister and a brother, 541 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 4: both of whom seem to lead perfectly ordinary lives. No 542 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 4: one really remembers anything about his father either way. The 543 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 4: father had left the family by the time Yann was 544 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,799 Speaker 4: going to the local school, but everyone remembers his. 545 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 1: Mothershists and mutovs kim ferusch. 546 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 4: Rudolph, the head master, describes Marcelek's mother as combative, but 547 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 4: it's obvious from his body language and the way he 548 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 4: raises his eyebrows as he carefully pronounces the word that 549 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 4: he wants me to know it's a bit of a euphemism. 550 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: As a from marge. 551 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 4: Verreina agrees with Rudolph's assessment. She now works for the 552 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,760 Speaker 4: town council and she knows from Marcelek as a conspicuous woman. 553 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 4: Doraina says Yan's mother used to be regularly upset about 554 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 4: one thing or another. She campaigned against a five G 555 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 4: mask being put up in Ploster Neuberg and against a 556 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 4: development that would have threatened a nature reserve. She says 557 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 4: she's very left wing. Everyone thinks Yan had a hard 558 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 4: time with his mother, that it was a difficult relationship, 559 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 4: to the point where Yan he did whatever he could 560 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 4: to get away from home. I got in touch with 561 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 4: Anne's mother, and to my surprise, she replied, I got 562 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 4: an email from her. She said she has quote no 563 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 4: interest in giving us an interview because she has neither 564 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 4: the desire, nerves, or time to wreak over quote an 565 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 4: extremely unpleasant period of my life. She has asked that 566 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 4: we don't reveal her name here. She said it's unfair 567 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,280 Speaker 4: to label her as combative and said it's a shame 568 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 4: for her campaigning efforts in town to get dismissed as 569 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 4: left wing and disruptive. She did say that her relationship 570 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 4: with her son quote changed massively the year before he 571 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 4: left home. She says it broke down because she quote 572 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 4: didn't let him get away with everything and quote didn't 573 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 4: let him wrap me around his little finger. She tried 574 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 4: to involve a psychologist to mediate between them. It didn't work. Yan, 575 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:26,320 Speaker 4: she implies, had his teachers charmed, but she was resistant. 576 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 4: Since then, she says, she's only tried to make contact 577 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 4: with her son once in twenty five years. The emails 578 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 4: she sent me had a whole load of attachments, eighteen 579 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 4: documents concerning all kinds of things to do with Yan. 580 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 4: Some are press releases from as far back as two thousand, 581 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 4: and they make me think that despite their estrangement, she 582 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 4: has been tracking her son's career. She's read, it would 583 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 4: seem almost all of the books and materials that have 584 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,320 Speaker 4: been published about the Warequad fraud. A lot of the 585 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 4: attachments she's sent me, though, are all about the Austrian 586 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 4: Russian Friendship Society, and she urges me to look more 587 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,400 Speaker 4: into it. It's the organization in Vienna that Wakaard sponsored. 588 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,399 Speaker 4: From marcell X's mother's response and from what we've heard 589 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 4: from others, it's clear that she and her son had 590 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 4: a deeply troubled and painful relationship whatever happened when he 591 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 4: left home, Verena says seemed significant because when she next 592 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 4: saw Yan after the exams, he appeared to be a 593 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 4: changed person. It was at a reunion after everyone else 594 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 4: had graduated. They were around nineteen years old. She says 595 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 4: he boasted that he now knew how the world worked, 596 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,760 Speaker 4: that money could buy him whatever he wanted, even sex, 597 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 4: Even he implied sex with her. Incredulous, she told him 598 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 4: he was stupid. When Verena told this story, every one 599 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 4: around the table seemed shocked. It sounded so unlike the 600 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 4: Yan they knew, like he'd somehow come off the rails 601 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 4: a bit. 602 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 603 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 4: Before everyone gets up to leave to pick up their 604 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 4: children from nursery to go back to work, Philip tells 605 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 4: me why he agreed to speak with us. 606 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 6: Yeah, Pela, he or pilatives and for whom just doesn't sure. 607 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,760 Speaker 4: He says he's speaking with us because he wants people 608 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 4: to understand that Yan, though he had a difficult childhood, 609 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 4: ended up where he did because he was vulnerable. He 610 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 4: wasn't destined to become a fugitive, and it's deeply sad 611 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 4: that he did. I've always believed that people are much 612 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 4: more malleable things than we realize. Capable of extremes. We 613 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,839 Speaker 4: have a tendency to see those who end up at 614 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:07,760 Speaker 4: the fringes are somehow radically different to us broken evil. 615 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 4: The reality, though, is that with the right pressures, the 616 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 4: right challenges, the right circumstances, or all the wrong ones, 617 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 4: people can be walked into the strangest shapes and situations. 618 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,879 Speaker 4: When you want to recruit someone as a spy, if 619 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 4: you're good at it, you understand something of that. You 620 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 4: look for the parts of a person's life, their personality, 621 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 4: their needs that you can work with, bend, change, use 622 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:45,720 Speaker 4: their history. But not everyone with a difficult childhood becomes 623 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 4: a spy. So how did Yan Marcelett get drawn into it? 624 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 4: Why did he end up working with the Russians? And 625 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 4: what did he actually do coming up on hot money? 626 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 7: If Moscow decides and it is always Moscow who decides, 627 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 7: if Moscow decided that this person can be and should 628 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,359 Speaker 7: be recruited, then they work out ways of how to 629 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 7: recruit disperson. 630 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 4: This is a dangerous situation because those spies tend to 631 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 4: be the better ones, better than the guys who do 632 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 4: it solely for money. Hot Money is a production of 633 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,359 Speaker 4: the financial times and pushkin Industries. It was written and 634 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,879 Speaker 4: reported by me Sam Jones. The senior producer and co 635 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 4: writer is Peggy Sutton. Our producer is Izzy Carter. Our 636 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,799 Speaker 4: researcher is Marine Saint. Our show is edited by Karen Shakerci, 637 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 4: fact checking by Kira Levine, Sound design and mastering by 638 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 4: Jake Gorsky and Marcelo de Olivia, with additional sound design 639 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 4: by Izzy Carter. Original music from Matthias Boss and John 640 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:05,320 Speaker 4: Evans of Stellwagon Symphonet. Our show art is by Sean Carney. 641 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 4: Our executive producers are Cheryl Brumley, Amy Gaines McQuaid and 642 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:16,360 Speaker 4: Matthew Garahan. Additional editing by Paul Murphy. Special thanks to 643 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:22,279 Speaker 4: Ruler Calaffe, Dan McCrumb, Laura Clark, Alistair Mackie, Manuela Saragosa, 644 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 4: Nigel Hanson, Vicki Merrick, Eric Sandler, Morgan Ratner, Jake Flanagan, 645 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,320 Speaker 4: Jacob Goldstein, Sarah Nix, and Greta Cohne. 646 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:33,720 Speaker 1: I'm Sam Jones.