1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: It's that time time, time, time, luck and load. 2 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 2: So Michael Verie Show is on the air. Some of 3 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 2: our best show prep comes from listeners. That's why I 4 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 2: read every email. The perspectives people have when there's a 5 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 2: fire and a firefighter writes in, or where there's a 6 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: response to a crime and police officers will write in, 7 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 2: or when we're in the middle of war and veterans 8 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 2: will write in. Sometimes it is that you've discovered a 9 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 2: podcast and the host would be an interesting guest, and 10 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: why they would be an interesting guest. So Scott sent 11 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 2: me an email. I don't know Scott, and he says, zar, 12 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 2: I'm emailing about a recent book release from a fellow 13 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: named doctor Greg Gifford. It's called Lies. My therapist told me, 14 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: I think he would be an amazing interview on your show, 15 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 2: and it's the sort of things you like to talk about. 16 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 2: He went on as to why this would be a particular, 17 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 2: particularly good guest from a Christian counselor, professor and podcaster, 18 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 2: a critique of the mental health establishment from his perspective, 19 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 2: and I said, you have my attention. Therefore, our guest 20 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 2: is doctor Greg Gifford. Welcome to the program. 21 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 3: Thank you, for having me. 22 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 2: Why did you need to write a book? What was 23 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 2: the purpose? What did you hope to accomplish? I mean, 24 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: it's a pretty it's a pretty eye catching title. Lies 25 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: my therapist told. 26 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 3: Me, right right, Well, I wrote the book first of all, 27 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 3: because counselors often are dealing with the downshow bring issues 28 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 3: of how to counsel somebody and how to help somebody 29 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 3: with anxiety or depression. But in instead of focusing there, 30 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 3: I wanted to actually get at the upstream issues of 31 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 3: why is mental health getting worse in America? Why is 32 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 3: there a complex, an industrial complex that's growing, Why are 33 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 3: more people on psychotropics? And instead of doing how to 34 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 3: help someone on the psychotropics book, I wanted to try 35 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 3: to learn why is the problem getting worse? So really 36 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 3: that question sent me on the maybe downward spiral or 37 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 3: the trajectory of writing this book. 38 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 2: And let's talk about how that came to be. Why 39 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: is that the case? 40 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 3: Well, as I began to read and learn how the 41 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 3: mental health movement came about, it came down to the 42 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 3: father of the mental health movement of Clifford Whittingham Beers, 43 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 3: and he started using the term mental and brain synonymously. 44 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 3: So that he would talk about mental hygiene, for instance, 45 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,679 Speaker 3: and the mental health movement was actually the mental hygiene 46 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 3: movement to begin with. And he started using things like 47 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 3: medical doctors for the mind and wanted us to implement 48 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 3: a psychiatrist, a medical doctor for the mind, as Europe 49 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 3: is already doing. So he's saying this in the turn 50 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 3: of the twentieth century and saying we need medical doctors 51 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,679 Speaker 3: for our minds. And I began to think, oh, that's 52 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 3: interesting because as a Christian, the Bible teaches that the 53 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 3: mind is immaterial, it's part of our inner person. It's 54 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 3: not a physical reality, it's an immaterial reality. So that 55 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 3: little nugget started to become the mind versus the brain. 56 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 3: And are we talking about a brain issue, the organ 57 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 3: of your brain, or are we talking about the mind, 58 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 3: the immateial aspect of who we are. And because the 59 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 3: mental health movement has combined those too, there have been 60 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 3: many misdiagnoses which lead to wrong prognoses as well. If 61 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 3: you get the problem wrong, you get the solution wrong 62 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 3: every time. 63 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 2: Do you think that these errors as you see them, 64 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: or poor courses of action, are by design or by default? 65 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 2: How does this end up happening. 66 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's this is me speculating a liment. 67 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 3: So I think the fair question, Michael. The reality is 68 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 3: I'm usually a pretty charitable person, so I'm not typically 69 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 3: skeptical or overly cynical. So that means that I don't 70 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 3: think it's by design. I think we live in a 71 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 3: naturalistic world looking for naturalistic explanations of why we face 72 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 3: what we face. So if you're gonna just come up 73 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 3: with a material solution, then the mental health enterprise is 74 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 3: a natural answer. And why do we do that? You 75 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 3: go back to Darwin like, the physical as all there is. 76 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 3: The material is all there is, So there must be 77 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 3: a physical, material reason for why I'm doing what I'm doing, 78 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 3: Why I'm sad, why I'm anxious, while i'mtruggling with past experiences. 79 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 3: There must be a material reason. And that's where the 80 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 3: blame it on the brain mental health complex really comes in. 81 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, one of my great frustrations with 82 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 2: the medical establishment. I'm not familiar with your body of work, 83 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 2: but one of my great frustrations is an overreliance on 84 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 2: pharmaceutical products, an overreliance on things that cost money when 85 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 2: there are things that are free or very little money, 86 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 2: more sleep, more, more water in your diet, that there 87 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 2: is this dependency on billable items for industries that have 88 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 2: so affected sort of traditional physical health. And what I'm 89 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: hearing from you is that's also true for mental health treatment. 90 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 2: I don't want to put words in your mouth, no. 91 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 3: Right, I make that case. In the book, there's a 92 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 3: section on incentivized diagnosing, and I show I mean it's 93 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 3: these are factual. So there are many people who will 94 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 3: disagree with my conclusions, but these are facts that you 95 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 3: really can't get around. Which is Number one. You have 96 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 3: to find a diagnosis, a mental health diagnosis to build 97 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 3: an insurance company. And what are you getting paid for 98 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 3: by the insurance company. You're treating depression or ADHD. So 99 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 3: that's one incentive, and it's a huge one, especially if 100 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 3: you're spending seventeen minutes with your doctor, who then finds 101 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 3: the code with which to bill your insurance. Second is 102 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 3: schools have to test in order for you to get 103 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 3: additional resources. You have to either have a learning disability 104 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 3: or some mental health impairment. So now we need a 105 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 3: diagnosis to get you a tutor, so to speak. And 106 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 3: that's an incentive whereas we could just get you the 107 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 3: tutor and not diagnosed, but we need that diagnosis because 108 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 3: of ida. So there's like three or four different examples 109 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 3: where I show that this isn't even the nethereous side. 110 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 3: I mean, inevitably the total depravity of men. It means 111 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 3: that we are bad in every way. And that does 112 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 3: mean they're individuals and the secular mental health enterprise that 113 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 3: are in it for the money and they're in it 114 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,679 Speaker 3: for a career. Or it's the psychotropic you know industry, 115 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 3: where you're making money off of antidepressants. I mean, of 116 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 3: course that exists, you know, And so then a Christian 117 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 3: just has to be discerning. It's like, well, here's what happens. 118 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 3: You get an arbitrary mental illness, and then my psychiatrist 119 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 3: makes money off of this arbitrary illness, and then pharmaceutical 120 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 3: companies make money by me taking their antidepressant for the 121 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 3: rest of my life. And this is this is incentivized 122 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 3: for them, and I'm really the one losing in all 123 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 3: of this. 124 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: Well, the frustration here is that we should all start 125 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 2: from the premise that we want to provide health care 126 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: for our friend's neighbors family, and there are all these 127 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 2: things getting in between. It feels like we're not making 128 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 2: progress as a society because so many things we were 129 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 2: once good at we're less good at now, and I 130 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 2: find that extraordinarily frustrating. Doctor Greg Giffert is our guest. 131 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 2: The book is called Lies. My therapist told me we'll 132 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 2: get into more of those lives listening to the Michael 133 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: Barry Show podcast. 134 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 4: Is sexy be sexy Mark. 135 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 2: Greg Giffert is our guest. The book is called Lies. 136 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: My therapist told me. This was a book that was 137 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 2: recommended to me by a listener who had read it 138 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 2: and found it useful. Greg Gifford, what do you want 139 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 2: people to take away from this? Once we understand that 140 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: there are lies, our therapist is telling us, what do 141 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 2: you hope to accomplish? What should the patient reader take away? 142 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 3: Well, if it is true that mental health diagnoses are 143 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 3: on the rise and more people are on psychotropics than 144 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 3: they've ever been at any point in history, we have 145 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 3: to at least be discerning and skeptical and say, well, 146 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 3: maybe the secular therapeutic enterprise doesn't know what it's doing. 147 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 3: Is there something better? Is there a better alternative? And 148 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 3: that's where I would say, yes, there is the Bible. 149 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 3: God has created us and the Bible has better answers, 150 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 3: and many have relegated the Bible to like cute Sunday 151 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 3: school hour where we talk about Jonah and the whale. 152 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 3: But the Bible actually addresses the deepest problems that we 153 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 3: have and frames our anthropology, our understanding of ourselves, our 154 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 3: understanding of change, the purpose of our life. So the 155 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 3: takeaway for the reader or the listener is, I think 156 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 3: we're all sensing there's something wrong with the secular therapeutic. 157 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 3: Would you be open to seeing what the Bible has 158 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 3: to say about your problems? 159 00:09:53,520 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe the problem is that people are bifurcating and 160 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: Bible study and their personal faith and their personal Christian 161 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:13,199 Speaker 2: experience and separating that from health care, when maybe you're saying, 162 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 2: there should be a better blend of that, because the 163 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 2: Bible is more than telling us to be nice people 164 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,719 Speaker 2: or ten commandments. It is telling us how to live 165 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 2: our lives. I don't want to put words in your mouth, 166 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 2: but I'm trying to figure out Oh. 167 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 3: Yes, rctly he's that out. So then think, all right, 168 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 3: when I go to church on Sunday and my pastor 169 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 3: preaches on anxiety. Do I draw a line between that 170 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 3: and say, well, he's not a mental health professional, so 171 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 3: he doesn't really know what anxiety is like. Or do 172 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 3: I say, wait a minute, maybe my mental health expert, 173 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 3: my therapist, psychologist, psychiaty, maybe they really don't know what 174 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 3: anxiety is and my pastor is teaching me directly from 175 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 3: God's word. So if you're not careful, this is really 176 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 3: a view of the Bible that we're getting at. Where 177 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 3: do you believe that the Bible tells you everything that 178 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 3: you need to know for life and godliness? Or do 179 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 3: you believe that it tells you everything you need to 180 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 3: know for Sunday morning tending out a missionary, maybe someday 181 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 3: school teaching, But when it comes to the real issues 182 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 3: of life, the Bible is inadequate or the Bible doesn't 183 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 3: talk about those things. That is the doctrine of the 184 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 3: sufficiency of scripture, which is that God has provided in 185 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 3: his word all that we need for life and godliness. 186 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 3: And that's my basic contention. Even if a reader doesn't 187 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 3: agree with some of my data, which are all cited, 188 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 3: or if a reader doesn't agree with the difference of 189 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 3: the mind in the brain do you believe as a 190 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 3: Christian that God has provided in his word all that 191 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 3: you need? And if the secular therapeutics not helping you, 192 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 3: would you just give it a shot? Would you be 193 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 3: open to it? Because if you have this secular sacred divide, 194 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 3: you're going to see your pastor as being well and 195 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 3: tended and the Bible is being good, but it's not adequate. 196 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 3: And what I'm saying is the opposite, where it's like, no, 197 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 3: the Bible adequate and not only adequate, like it's enough, 198 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 3: but it's actually superior than what we are hearing anywhere, 199 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 3: especially in the secular therapeutic So. 200 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 2: What would be an example of that? What would be 201 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 2: a problem where the Bible is enough and we don't 202 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 2: need a drug or we don't need the secular approach. 203 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. So, currently, generalized anxiety disorder is an actual mental disorder, 204 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 3: and you could go to a psychiatrist, medical doctor and 205 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 3: be diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. But if you're using 206 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 3: that term anxiety in the same way that the Bible 207 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 3: uses that term anxiety, this is a Matthew sixth issue 208 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 3: or a Philippian's flour issue, which is I don't have 209 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 3: a medical problem. I actually have a faith problem, and 210 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 3: there is room for repentance and growing in trust in 211 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 3: the world. So if I'm not careful, I go to 212 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 3: my therapist and they tell me I have a medical 213 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 3: issue and I can't control it, and I can manage 214 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 3: symptoms of medications. Whereas the true Biblical answer is if 215 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 3: we're talking about anxiety and the same way the Bible 216 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 3: talks about anxiety, I actually need to repent of that 217 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 3: and grow in my trust and the Lord and put 218 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 3: on a vision of who God really is, a sovereign 219 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 3: and wise and good. So the wrong diagnosis of generalized 220 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 3: anxiety disorder, it's going to lead to a wrong solution. 221 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 3: And for reframing this, then think of the implications of this, Michael. 222 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 3: So now instead of me finding transformation or healing or 223 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 3: total growth, I'm managing symptoms for the rest of my 224 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 3: life gad. Whereas what the Bible offers is that you 225 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 3: can actually be transformed, which is totally new, made new, 226 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 3: or restored to a ment condition. So I'm not managing 227 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 3: symptoms for thirty years, I'm actually a different person. So 228 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 3: it's even a much more hopeful model. If we'll just 229 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 3: go back to the Bible instead of letting the secular 230 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 3: therapeutic be our authority. 231 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 2: It's very interesting. What about your thought on therapists who 232 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 2: may say that they bring a Christian approach or a 233 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 2: biblical approach to this rather than a traditional or more 234 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 2: common secular approach. 235 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 3: Right, And that is true. There are individuals who have 236 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 3: been primarily trained in Rogerian counseling, humanistic psychology, psychoanalysis, whatever 237 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 3: field that they've been trained in, but they're a Christian. 238 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 3: They believe in Jesus, they believe in salvation by faith 239 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 3: alone in Christs. That's totally true. The question is what 240 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,479 Speaker 3: pair of eyeglasses are you using. Are you using Abraham 241 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 3: Maslow's pair of eyeglasses, are you using Carl Rogers or 242 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 3: Sigmund Freud's or are you using the Bible as the 243 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 3: eyeglasses through which you're viewing the problem, the solution to 244 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 3: the problem, and how to actually maintain so your method 245 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 3: for change long term. So if a person saying, you 246 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 3: know what, I'm using the Bible as the lens through 247 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 3: which I'm viewing everything and helping my counsel ease or 248 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 3: my clients, and I would say good for you, like 249 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 3: that's the way that it should be done. But if 250 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 3: you're sprinkling a proverb into your counseling and ninety nine 251 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 3: percent of your counseling is actually what Abraham Maslow said 252 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 3: or call Roger said, neither of them were believers are 253 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 3: claimed to be, then you're not really doing what you're 254 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 3: claiming to do. You're inserting a proverb here and there 255 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 3: about whatever topic, and then you're primarily using the worldview 256 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 3: of Rogers or Maslow or Floyd. 257 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 2: It's very interesting because it does strike me that many 258 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: people sort of have compartments in their lives. You know, 259 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 2: here's the compartment for church and Bible study and the Word, 260 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 2: and then here's the compartment for during the week, and 261 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 2: I stop off at counseling on my way home when 262 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: I leave early on Thursday, and that those two would 263 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 2: not be the same, where at least for a believer, 264 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 2: you would have to think that you would want the 265 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 2: consistency because they're very different messages and they're very different medicines. 266 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 2: And it's a very very interesting perspective. I'm out of time. 267 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: The book is by doctor Greg Gifford. Lies My therapist 268 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 2: told me, giving us a lot to think about. Thank you. 269 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 3: You're welcome. 270 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 2: Thank you Jackie. 271 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 3: Here where Jackie a crash that killed Congresswoman jack you or. 272 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 2: You know what they told me? I haven't. I haven't 273 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: done this story. And Jim guys film's hurt because he 274 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 2: worked up this story and he says I didn't do it, 275 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 2: and I swear I did. But the only reason I 276 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 2: don't mind is I love that dang song. That's why 277 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 2: we let it play out so long. I love that 278 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 2: dang song. Anyway, let's uh, let me tell you the 279 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 2: story about sister Girl. She is a Kentucky woman who 280 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 2: caused I swear I did this segment. I get if 281 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,959 Speaker 2: you said I didn't, I didn't. Maybe we did it 282 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 2: for the evening, didn't do the morning, or did the morning, 283 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 2: didn't do it? I can't remember anyway. Kentucky woman causes 284 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 2: over one thousand dollars in damages to a little Caesar's 285 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 2: in Louisville after losing it over the one thousand dollars 286 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 2: extra sauce charge. How do you do one thousand dollars 287 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 2: in damages to a little Caesars? I mean you had 288 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 2: to burn the whole place down, According to court documents, 289 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 2: Brionna Haynes placed an order over the phone and went 290 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 2: to the store to pick it up. When Haines asked 291 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 2: for extra sauce with her order and employee said it 292 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 2: would cost a dollar, Popo said Haines quote created a 293 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 2: disturbance in the store, end quote over the dollar charge, 294 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 2: and began knocking things off the counter, including a custom 295 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 2: made computer stand and the computer register, which totaled over 296 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 2: one thousand dollars in damages. Sister girl left the store, 297 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 2: but employees were able to provide Popo with her name 298 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: after comparing video surveillance with a known picture. She was 299 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 2: charged with criminal mischief but was not arrested until another incident. 300 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,719 Speaker 2: According to court documents, she threw a brick at the 301 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 2: father of her child's car because he wanted to move 302 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 2: back to Cincinnati. Popo said this incident costed more than 303 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 2: a thousand dollars worth of damage. She was charged with 304 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: assault and criminal mischief. You know, you kind of almost 305 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 2: get the impression that this is almost a savage animal 306 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 2: that is incapable of making advanced mental deliberations with regard 307 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 2: to conflict resolution, don't you. The story from w DRB 308 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 2: TV in Louisville. 309 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 5: Accused of trashing a Little Caesars because of an extra 310 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 5: charge for sauce. Please say Brianna Hayes asked for extra 311 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 5: sauce with her order and was not happy when she 312 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 5: was told it would cost a dollar more. They say 313 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 5: she started knocking stuff off the counter, including the register, 314 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 5: which ended up causing more than one thousand dollars in damage. 315 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 5: This incident happened back in January. Hayes was charged with 316 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 5: criminal mischief, but was not arrested until another incident on 317 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 5: September twenty second. She is now due back in court tomorrow. 318 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 2: Online It's known as black fatigue. That's what they call it. 319 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: How much you want to bet? Old Brianna just a 320 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 2: girl is a great, big fat woman. 321 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 3: Oh wait, but she ain't a great big fat person. 322 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 2: You found a picture of her? All right, well let 323 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 2: me see it. Ooh, yes, she's she's a big girl. 324 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 2: When they got a temper like that, nine times out 325 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: of ten up a store like that, she gonna be 326 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 2: a big girl. I she gonna be a couple of 327 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 2: hundred on the on the hoof, for sure. I don't 328 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 2: make up the rules, romown, I don't I don't decide 329 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 2: how big they're gonna be it just turns out they're 330 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,719 Speaker 2: gonna be that big. You remember that story about five 331 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 2: years ago about the pizza joint that caused a stir 332 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 2: with their billboard about fat people. Do you remember that. 333 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:22,959 Speaker 6: I thought it'd be a good idea to put some 334 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 6: funny signs. 335 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: I don't tell We pulled in and I saw it. 336 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 4: I was laughing. 337 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 2: I said, that is as fantastic. 338 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: They're just advertising and trying to get people to notice it. 339 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 6: I never even thought about it in that way as 340 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 6: soon as I thought it, because kidnapping is not a joke. 341 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 6: We're taking it down. 342 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are going to be 343 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: offunded by it. 344 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 7: But I mean, I don't think it's a big deal. 345 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: It's advertisement, it's marketing. 346 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 3: You know. 347 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 6: I never even thought about it as the kidnapping aspect. 348 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 6: I just meant it to be funny. 349 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 2: There's a comedian named Kyle Kanaane. I think he'd be 350 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 2: kind of an ass in person, but he's got some 351 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 2: funny bits. He has one bit called Cutting Crew. It's 352 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 2: about the song I Just Died in your Arms tonight 353 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 2: and he goes to the cemetery. You got to hear 354 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 2: it for yourself. But it's a really, really funny bit. 355 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 2: I'm sure it's out there anyway. He has a bit 356 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 2: about getting a pizza delivered and when it arrived, they 357 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 2: had not sliced the pizza, which sounds like you're quibbling, 358 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: but I mean, think about it. If the pizza is 359 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 2: not cut up when it arrives, I mean, you should 360 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 2: have a you know, you should have a roller, but 361 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 2: what if you don't. 362 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 7: Then I was delivered an unsliced pizza. Everything you believe 363 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 7: in just unravels, and everything you hold true some people. 364 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 7: Sounds like a simple mistake now, I mean I took 365 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 7: it personally. I was like, that's somebody down at Domino's 366 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 7: making a judgment call on my life. That's somebody seeing 367 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 7: my name come up on one too many tickets. And 368 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 7: finally just being like. 369 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 8: Listen, man, we know that you're probably gonna eat this 370 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 8: by yourself, more than likely all in one sitting too. 371 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 2: Son. You know what to do, man, Just fold it 372 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 2: in half and. 373 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 4: Bone appetite. 374 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 8: Just because they were right, I didn't appreciate. 375 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 4: The assumption you don't know me. 376 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 7: Domino's plump, this. 377 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 8: Is John Taco tastes. 378 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 2: Acdly there's a comedian by the name of Bob Marley, 379 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 2: Yeah that's actually his name, who has a bit comparing 380 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 2: ordering pizza to a drug bust. 381 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 4: Every pizza that's good, isn't it? Oh my god? You 382 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 4: ever get excited when you order a pizza? 383 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: You're just sitting around the house and you look at 384 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: the other people involved in the deal. 385 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 4: We're gonna get a pizza. 386 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: First thing I do after we order the pizza, I 387 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: take off all my clothes. That way I don't have 388 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: to answer the door when the pa guy shows up. 389 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 4: Then I go and I sit on the couch and 390 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 4: I wait for my pizza. 391 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: Did you ever notice, in the time you hang up 392 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: the phone until the time the pizza guy shows up, 393 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: the only conversation you have is where in the hell 394 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: is our pizza? 395 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 4: That's pretty bad, isn't it. 396 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: Fatties of America, there's people starving to death all around 397 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: the world, people waiting for a bag of flower to 398 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: fall out. 399 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 4: Of a helicopter. 400 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: Do you know how many beers I've had to drink 401 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: while I wait for this kid to show up? 402 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 4: It's great when he finally shows up, isn't it so exciting? 403 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 4: It's almost like a drug raid Ding dong. 404 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, get the money, get the money, Hide the dog, 405 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 2: Hide the dog. 406 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 4: Who is it? The pizza guy? What's it? 407 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 2: What's it? 408 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:49,959 Speaker 1: Bring it on? 409 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 2: What would you do with a brain if you had one? 410 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 2: Bring it on? Because there is nothing here? The Michael 411 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 2: Barry Show. There are certain things from history that you 412 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 2: don't just say, well, that's history and move on. The 413 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 2: Holocaust would be one such example. The coronavirus and the 414 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 2: quote unquote vaccine and the mandatory jabs and the lives lost, 415 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: the lockdowns. These are things you don't simply move on from. 416 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 2: You learn from. But before you can learn from them, 417 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 2: you have to you have to face painful realities, and 418 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 2: you have to pick at a wound that a lot 419 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 2: of people want to move on from. That's not how 420 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 2: you progress. George Santana famously said those who do not 421 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 2: learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. 422 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 2: Often the very people who want to quote move on 423 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 2: don't want to bear responsibility for what happened. Nick Saban 424 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 2: and other coaches will tell you that some of the 425 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: most important coaching you do of a team is not 426 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 2: during the team during the game, but after the game, 427 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 2: when you come in and watch that painful game film 428 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 2: and you see what you did that you hope nobody noticed, 429 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: and how you failed here and came up short there. 430 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 2: It is very important that we go back and understand 431 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 2: what happened on January sixth of twenty twenty one. It's 432 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 2: important that we understand what happened, and not be told 433 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 2: what happened by those with an agenda, but that we 434 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 2: do our own research and we ask questions of various people. 435 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: One of the most important voices in all of that 436 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 2: who has seemingly been silenced officially is Stephen Sund who 437 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 2: was the Capitol Police chief at that time on that day, 438 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 2: and he's our guest chief. 439 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 9: Welcome, thank you very much for having me on. Michael. 440 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 2: Let's start with how you ended up the Capitol Police 441 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 2: chief leave January sixth aside, I think you were a 442 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 2: Metro police officer in DC before that. Talk about your career, 443 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 2: why did you get into law enforcement? Jeff family in it, 444 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 2: and then just walked me through your whole career there. 445 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 9: Absolutely, I mean get the services succinctly as possible. Yeah, 446 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 9: So I did twenty five years with the DC Police 447 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 9: and I got into policing because my dad had actually 448 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 9: gotten sick early early on, he had got lakimia. He 449 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 9: was a Bee fifty two pilot. He had been sick 450 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 9: for a number of years, but passed away when I 451 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 9: was sixteen. So after we got back from the funeral, 452 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 9: we just happen to be visited by two friends of 453 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 9: ours that we used to live with right nearby in 454 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 9: California that became Fremont Police officers, Carolyn Brad Brown Needing 455 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 9: still sat in touch today. They had reached out and 456 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 9: came to visit. This was the same day that we 457 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 9: had buried my dad, and as a young sixteen year old, 458 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 9: as a very pivotal part of my life, I looked 459 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 9: at and said, you know what I think. I know 460 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 9: what I want to do, and at from that point 461 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 9: on I was pursuing. Right around twenty three, I applied 462 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 9: to the couple different departments, but DC Police picked me up. 463 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 9: Started there right around twenty five. By the time I 464 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 9: went into the academy, got out and patrolled as an 465 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 9: officer in what they call the sixth District, which is 466 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 9: Anti Coostia, one of the most violent parts of Washington, 467 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 9: d C. Was there for a couple of years made sergeant, 468 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 9: went to seventy, which is also one of the most 469 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 9: violent parts in Anacostia, South Anacostia, down by South Capitol 470 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 9: Street Congress Heights. Patrolled there for a little bit and 471 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 9: then started rising up through the ranks. Became a lieutenant, 472 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 9: and then I got assigned downtown for a little bit 473 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 9: and went to Special Operations Division, where I kind of 474 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 9: stayed from lieutenant on doing all the major events, major 475 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 9: demonstrations in Washington, d C. Made captain inspector, being commander 476 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 9: of the Special Operations Division from twenty ten to twenty fifteen, 477 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 9: and that's when I retired. At the end of the 478 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,360 Speaker 9: very last day, December thirty first, twenty fifteen, I retired. 479 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 9: We had the Pope come visit in October, and I 480 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 9: figured it's a good time to head out. Went out 481 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 9: and kind of worked a little bit in a private 482 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 9: sector for just about a months, and then the House 483 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 9: and Senate Sergeant Arms approached me to come over and 484 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 9: become the assistant Chief of Operations for Capitol Police, and 485 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 9: January seventh, I started twenty seventeen. Started at the US 486 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 9: Capitol Police just a few days before Trump's inauguration, and 487 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 9: I'd been involved in. It's probably my fifth or sixth 488 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 9: inauguration I've been involved in planning of so they brought 489 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 9: me in right before that and was there, and then 490 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 9: in May became the May of twenty nineteen, became the 491 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 9: chief and started revamping a lot of operations and capabilities, 492 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 9: and then January sixth happened and I was removed from 493 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 9: the position the very next day by Speaker Pelosi. And 494 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 9: I'm sure our conversation is going to cover a couple 495 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 9: of things along. 496 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: There, absolutely, but before that, let's set in place our 497 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,479 Speaker 2: procedures so we know the context within which we're working. 498 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 2: I was with Senator Cruz at an event in Milwaukee 499 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 2: a few years ago, and he had a large contingent 500 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: of capital and I learned that those are a sign 501 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 2: based on kind of death threats and it's all on 502 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 2: a screen, as you know, And it turns out he 503 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 2: was getting more death threats and than Pelosi and every 504 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 2: other member of Congress combined. And it was kind of 505 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 2: interesting to me that that was, you know, that that 506 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 2: unlike the president, which is kind of you know, a 507 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 2: designated secret service for the president, it was sort of 508 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 2: where is the threat right now? It might be Jasmine 509 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 2: Crockett on Monday, it might be Ted Cruz on on Thursday, 510 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 2: or whoever that might be. But talk to me about 511 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: how the Capital Police chief is hired and to whom 512 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 2: they report and take orders. 513 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 9: Okay, and you're you're you're absolutely right about what you 514 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 9: just you just mentioned. We do statutory security details for 515 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 9: the leadership before on the House and the Senate side, 516 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 9: and then others based on the threat. So you're actually 517 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 9: right there. So the Capitol Police chief, and it's interesting, 518 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 9: it's not like any other police chief in the country. 519 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 9: I report to a Capitol Police Board. They're the one 520 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 9: that hire and fire me. Oh, we'll get into that too. 521 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 9: They're the ones that really have the hiring authority, but 522 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 9: they only do it with the approval of Senate leadership 523 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 9: and House leadership. So when I was first hired, you 524 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 9: had let's see, Schumer was over on the for the 525 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 9: chief's position. Schumer was over on the Senate side, and 526 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 9: Pelos who was on the House side, and they both 527 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 9: had to approve my hiring for the position. So you 528 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 9: go through and what's interesting to understand is the Capitol 529 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 9: Police Board is made up of four individuals, the House 530 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 9: and Senate Sergeant Arms, who are considered to be the 531 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 9: lead law enforcement agent for the House and for the 532 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 9: for the and one for the Senate. So when you 533 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 9: think of the chief as the top law enforcement official 534 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 9: for the legislative branch, I'm sorry. When you think of 535 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 9: the chief as the top law enforcement official for the 536 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 9: legislative branch, that's not the case. The Senate and the 537 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 9: House starge Arms actually are are above me. The third 538 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 9: person in the Capitol Police Board is the architect of 539 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 9: the Capitol, and then the fourth person is the Chief 540 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 9: of Police. The three people that are politically appointed, the 541 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 9: House and Senate sarge Arms, they or executed the Capitol, 542 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 9: all have a vote on how things go for the 543 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 9: Capitol Police and they cover They control everything from from schedules, 544 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 9: which doors we cover, which equipment we can use. If 545 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 9: I want to get my officer's tasers, I had to 546 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 9: go to the Capitol Police Board and get approval, and 547 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 9: I had to go to my oversight committee and get 548 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 9: approval for them. If I wanted to like deploy fencing, 549 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 9: I got to go to the Capitol Police Board. If 550 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 9: I want to everything, pretty much all operations has to 551 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 9: be approved by the Capital of base boards. That just 552 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 9: gives you a little bit of an idea what I'm 553 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 9: dealing with. Yeah, as the chief, it's very political. It's 554 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 9: very political because they the House and Senate Sergeant Arms 555 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 9: who carry mostly weight, uh, don't want to do anything 556 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 9: that's going to upset their congressional leader. So we may 557 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 9: be having a hearing on the Supreme Court justice being 558 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 9: nominated and I want to put up certain offencing. Well, 559 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 9: one side they want no fencing put up so protesters 560 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 9: can come in and you know, proms or you know, 561 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 9: the other side may want to shut down all the 562 00:31:58,360 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 9: buildings to public entry. 563 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 2: So I think that's going to be a good segue 564 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,719 Speaker 2: into our next discussion point. Our guest is Stephen Sund 565 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 2: who was the Chief of Police of the Capitol Police 566 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 2: on January sixth, twenty twenty one, that fateful day. We'll 567 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 2: talk about his perspective, which I bet you haven't heard 568 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 2: and may be surprised by coming up.