1 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal. Unfortunately, my colleague Tracy Elloway is out today. 3 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: I'm kind of disappointed, actually a little bit, because even though, 4 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: like Tracy and I have been doing the podcast for 5 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: several years now, there are some things I still don't 6 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: know about Tracy. Like I don't really know what kind 7 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: of music she's in two for example, I've gone to 8 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 1: karaoke with her a couple of times, so I know 9 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: a little bit about what she likes to sing, I think, 10 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: but in terms of what she listens to, I actually 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: don't know. I was going to ask her. As for myself, 12 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: you know, like I'm a forty one years old, so 13 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: I have very cliche tastes. I would suppose I like 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: a lot of old indie rock, and I hardly I'm 15 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: not very good on keeping up with new music. By 16 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: and large. Pretty much, if I discover new music, it's 17 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: often courtesy of the algorithm that Spotify serves up to me. 18 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: But I don't really know about how it all works 19 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: and how the industry works and who benefits from this 20 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: current system, and I've always wanted to learn more. It's 21 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: particularly interesting now because of course we've had a number 22 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: of artists take their music off Spotify, notionally sort of 23 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: in defiance of Joe Rogan's We're All There. But also 24 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: I think there's been a lot of musician frustration with 25 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: Spotify and other streaming platforms, the new economics of music 26 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: that long precede any of the current drama. So in 27 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: light of all that, I want to learn more. And 28 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: I'm very excited about our guest because he writes a 29 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: lot about the economics of the music business and how 30 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: it all works and where the money is and so forth. 31 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: But also beyond that, he was a member of one 32 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: of my favorite bands, and so this is personally very 33 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: enthusist estek I'm gonna be speaking with Damon Krakowski. He 34 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: is was the drummer of the indie rock band Galaxy 35 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: and currently part of the duo Damon and Naomi. Damon, 36 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on odd lot, Thank 37 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: you for having me. You know, with musicians don't get 38 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: asked about business very often. I'm really grateful for the opportunity. 39 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: Will you write a lot about business? And I guess 40 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: that's that's why we could have this sort of music 41 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: slash your business conversation. Why do you write about business? 42 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: Why is it? You know, there are a lot of 43 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: musicians who probably are frustrated with the economics of the 44 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: music industry, but you were. You write quite a bit, 45 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: You've written books, you have a sub stack, a newsletter 46 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 1: about it. Why is it important for you to uh 47 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: to write about music? Yeah, it's a really it's a 48 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: question I asked myself pretty often. So, yeah, I started 49 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: a sub stack. It's called Dotta Drummer Almanac, and my 50 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: Twitter handles dot a Drummer That's where that came from. 51 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: And you know, I started writing about the business of 52 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: music very accidentally. It's the same way that I had 53 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,399 Speaker 1: to pay attention to the business of music accidentally, which 54 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: is from being a musician. And you just end up 55 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: at the other end of so many contracts and so 56 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: many deals and so many accounting reports that you know, 57 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: you either I guess at a certain but for quickly 58 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: early on, decide I'm never going to pay any attention 59 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: to any of this and turn it over to someone 60 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: who convinces you that they are, or you start reading 61 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: all that stuff. And there actually are a surprising percentage 62 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: of us that do read all that stuff. Um, some 63 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: some just out of necessity, because if you don't have 64 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: a manager, or you elect not to, or you don't 65 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: trust your manager, or your manager cheats you. I mean, 66 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: you know, there's so many ways that musicians end up 67 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: having to look finally at, even if they didn't want to, 68 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: at what the hell is going on? And once you 69 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: take a look, well, it's a big business and so 70 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: it's got a lot to learn. Takes a time for 71 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: you to learn how this came to be because musicians 72 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: tend to be they come in very young, many are 73 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: not in the business very long, and the business is 74 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: oriented toward the next set of musicians that are coming. 75 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: You know, not you, um, you're always you're just a 76 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: temporary talent for an industry that has set itself up 77 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: to deal with a revolving door of talent. And so 78 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: you know, things are not explained to you. It's kind 79 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: of like who can bother who? You know, why bother 80 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: explaining something to a band. They're only gonna be around 81 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: at best, you know, a few years, a few albums, whatever, 82 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: we're gonna make our money and move on. So just 83 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: get what you can. So you know, there's a lot 84 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: of that, but then we learned, you know, so what 85 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: happened to me was our first band, Galaxy. You know, 86 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: we were young. We signed the classic contract that handed 87 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: over all our rights and uh, and then the record 88 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: label declared bankruptcy and our contracts were thrown into Banks 89 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: Co in Manhattan. I spent over a year dealing with that, 90 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 1: trying to extricate our contracts and an ownership of our 91 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: records in perpetuity throughout the universe, known and unknown. These 92 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: are boilerplate things that are typical of music contracts, UM 93 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: and all formats uh, you know, as yet undiscovered and 94 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: all you know, blah blah blah, every contingency. Um. They 95 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: were just thrown into this Banks record and and and 96 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: put up for auction. So I spent a long time. 97 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: You know. We called our music business lawyer who we 98 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: had a very fine firm, grew Upment and Turskey Schindler 99 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: representing us at the time. They were Madonna's lawyer and whatever, 100 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: and they said, I'll forget it. You know, you have 101 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: no you have no rights to have no chance. I mean, 102 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: you signed that deal and we're like, you told us 103 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: to sign that deal. They're like, well that spoilerplate. The 104 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: company goes bankrupt, you know, it goes into bankruptcy court. 105 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: It's and that your contracts are an asset. It's like, 106 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: no way, you know, what do you mean? It's it's 107 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,799 Speaker 1: just an asset gone into into bankruptcy court, our own contracts. 108 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: As I understood that the stock from the warehouse went in, 109 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: I understood that maybe the Master Tapes head ownership, but 110 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 1: I mean our contracts were that. That was insane to me. 111 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: So anyway, I was like no, So I read all 112 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: the stuff and did my own negotiations, you know, and 113 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: called up the bankruptcy court appointed lawyer and taught myself 114 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: the business. Uh and we won. We got our rights. 115 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: I love that. So so I'm I'm a Galaxy fan. 116 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: I discovered it. I discovered the band Luna first three 117 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: year old band mate Dean were them, and then of 118 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: course I went backwards and discovered Galaxy for for listeners 119 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: who maybe aren't from the layer, can you describe like, 120 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: I think it's a pretty influential band, but a little 121 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: bit sort of like how big you guys were, however 122 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: you want to measure it and what kind of contract 123 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: gets offered to a sort of highly influential, but I 124 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: don't think like a Billboard chart topping band in the 125 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: late eighties, right, No, we weren't a pop band by 126 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: any by any measure, and nobody nobody saw us that way, 127 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: most importantly ourselves, and so we had no pop ambitions 128 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: and there was no question of trying to be world 129 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: conquering multi millionaires would have. So anyway, we were a 130 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: niche band. Uh an in indie band when we started 131 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: was called college rock because it was college radio stations 132 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: that played on our music, not commercial stations, and that 133 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,119 Speaker 1: divide was very um significant at the time. It meant 134 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: the major labels produced music that they tried to get 135 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: on commercial radio and into the chain store record stores, 136 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: and that that was their world and we really had 137 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: no part of that world. But but a lot of 138 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: people in the music industry were not part of the 139 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: world yet were in the music industry and built a 140 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: fully functioning, very very efficient and good system of distribution 141 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: and sales outside of that. So we had independent stores 142 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: in every town. We had uh college radio stations which 143 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: are mostly nonprofit but or community stations also but played 144 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: our records, and you know, the potential on the air, 145 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: it's the same as a commercial station, so you still 146 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: can reach people. And we had venues that we played 147 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: that the major label bands didn't go near, and so 148 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: we had a fully functioning network. That network was hard one. 149 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: It had been built by a generation or two of 150 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: bands before hours. It was really mostly the hardcore scene. 151 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: Actually from from our from my point of view of 152 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: kind of white college indie rock more or less was 153 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: more was pretty much forged by the hardcore bands who 154 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: went out and slept on people's floors and and found 155 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: alternative spaces to play and built this system. We came 156 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: in a sort of a more diverse musically, a little 157 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: bit less male, unfortunately, still pretty close to white, which 158 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: is something that really wasn't discussed or acknowledged nearly enough 159 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: at the time. But we came and sort of stepped 160 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: into that world and opened it up musically, I think 161 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: a little bit more than it had been and so 162 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: a lot of types of bands went through those channels 163 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: to the point where the major labels turned around and 164 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 1: realized that there was a market there that our world 165 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: had developed and was communicating with and selling product too, 166 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: and they were not. And that's the expression would happened 167 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,479 Speaker 1: in the nineties. So the major labels kind of realized 168 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: that they had missed the boat on a whole lot 169 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: of music that was potentially more salable than they thought. 170 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: So they looked at our scene and they, you know, 171 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: they sent their and our scout, they hired in our 172 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: scouts out of our scene, sent them back in to 173 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: kind of evaluate who could take it to another level commercially. 174 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: And then there was this really pretty ugly moment in 175 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: the late eighties early nineties where our scene that had 176 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: existed was destroyed more or less by the major labels 177 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: coming in and investing in it. So what they did 178 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 1: was they he picked from bands. They broke up Galaxy 179 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: five hundred by well Gas Bars being offered a major 180 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: label contract of its own, and in its place, Dean 181 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 1: was offered a solo deal by an A and our 182 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: guy who had worked for our record label, Rough Trade 183 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: and independent label, had been fired by Rough Trade, had 184 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: told his colleagues a Rough Trade that he was going 185 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: to break up our band in retaliation, got a job 186 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: with Electra, which is owned by Warner Brothers, and offered 187 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,079 Speaker 1: Diana solo deal. At the same moment that Galaxy of 188 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: Hunter was being offered a band deal by Columbia. So 189 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: Dean double cross to us he signed the deal on 190 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: his own with a different label instead of signing the 191 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 1: deal that we had already negotiated with our mutual lawyer 192 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: with Columbia. Besides old arguments which are long since, I mean, 193 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: you know, this is a long time later. But what 194 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: illustrates is what happened to the scene as a whole. 195 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: The deal that we had negotiated with our lawyer as 196 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: a band with Columbia was going to have complete artistic control. 197 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: We were going to choose our producer for our records, 198 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: we were going to choose our singles for our records. 199 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: We were going to control our videos. Our lawyer said 200 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:09,839 Speaker 1: to us, and this gives you a hint of how 201 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: this all goes down. Our lawyer said to us in 202 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: our band meeting with him in street conference room, if 203 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: you insist on that you will get less money. You 204 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: understand that. And we all said yes. But of course 205 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: I realized in retrospect that Dean didn't necessarily say yes. 206 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 1: He just was sitting there not saying no. So so 207 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: you know, and then um, the deal that Dean signed 208 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 1: with Electra Solo, where he had no negotiating power as 209 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:39,839 Speaker 1: a band because we had built our brand and we 210 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: had built our audience. That deal was without any artistic control, 211 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: and so he signed as a solo artist to be 212 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: shaped by the label, and the band that he then 213 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: put together was his were his employees. The label chose 214 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: his producers, the label chose his singles. The labels ran 215 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: him a million dollars in at as we all now 216 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: know because he has spoken about it in interviews and such, 217 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: and ultimately dropped the band. Of course, that's that's that's 218 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: what happened, kind of largely to the scene as a whole, 219 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: because how do the major labels work. Well, It's like 220 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: they have a bunch of hits that fund everything else 221 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 1: is not a hit, and everything else is not a 222 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: hit eventually just drops off their radar altogether. They're not 223 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: really in it for anything else, and only the hits 224 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: fund the business. That's how entertainment generally works as an 225 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: economic model. It sounds like the venture capital industry to 226 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: where you you sort of aim for one massive winner 227 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: that the returns a hundred extra on your investment, and 228 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: then everything gets sort of tossed by the wayside before 229 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 1: we sort of move on from like this moment, Like, 230 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: can you just talk a little bit more about the 231 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: economics of a Galaxy five album in terms of like 232 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: the income that you were able to generate both from 233 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: how much is from album sales versus how much was 234 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: from the touring that you did, Like what is the 235 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: what does that look like? Obviously? Um, yeah, on the 236 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: on the indie labels of the time, right, Well, it 237 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: all speaks to the same two differing models really, right, 238 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: so that we just talked about the major label model 239 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: classic entertainment business. And it's interesting to hear you compare 240 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 1: to venture capital. I'm sure it's the same idea. You're 241 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: basically gambling, but you the odds are are pretty good 242 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: that you know, if you have like a thousand pieces 243 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: of product, you know one one is going to become huge, 244 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: and you stack the deck by making sure you control 245 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: the distribution channels and the promotion channels that all those 246 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: hits go through. So whatever it's gonna hit is going 247 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: to be one of the ones that you have. It's 248 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: not gonna be somebody else's, right. That's that's crucial, and 249 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: that's crucial to looking to what's happened now with streaming 250 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: the other model is an independent model, a niche model, 251 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: which is what the independent world that I was a 252 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: part of and still am operates on. And that is, 253 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: like I've always said, it's like running a lemonade stand. 254 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: It was like we didn't need any more economic know 255 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: how than a kid opening a lemonade stand on the sidewalk. 256 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 1: It was like, we had a product, we had to 257 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: sell it for a couple little bit more than we 258 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: caused us to make, and we had to know who, 259 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,599 Speaker 1: how many too, how much to make. I mean, that 260 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: was all it was. It was like it was just 261 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: like basic capitals and any like American five year old understands, 262 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: and that's all we were doing, and that's all any 263 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: of the bands in our scene were doing. We were 264 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: pressing records, in selling them for more than they were 265 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: cast us to make, and making a small profit. And 266 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: there was no model that would take that much bigger. 267 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: But you, as you well know, on that model or 268 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: is pretty much like every small business traditional small business ever. 269 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: So it was like having like a small grocery store 270 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: or harbor store or anything that serves the neighborhood of 271 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: community and survives by pays the bills plus then some 272 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: and you have a p business model. It is not 273 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: a business model that attracts capital, right, So this is 274 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: really interesting, and I guess it gets to the heart 275 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: of the tension here, which is that we all sort 276 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: of understand that I mentioned VC, but I think Hollywood 277 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: is the same. And I guess currently sort of mainstream music, 278 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: which is it's really about the hits, and you aim 279 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: for one hit out of I don't know, a hundred 280 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: or a thousand, and it's just so big and so 281 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: massive that you could have numerous flops and it doesn't matter. 282 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: And this sort of the tail is very, very skewed 283 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: towards these mega stars. And today you know obviously Taylor 284 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: Swift and Adele and a handful of artists that just 285 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: sell an absurd amount. And so I guess the question, 286 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: and maybe this sort of leads into where we are now, 287 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: is like, is the lemonade stand model effectively dead? At 288 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: this point? There's just no other route to music other 289 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: than or sort of Yeah, there's the lemonade stand model 290 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: dead in a world of streaming only, Yes, that's the 291 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: way to put it. Yeah, recorded music, yes, because what 292 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: happened was they were there were parallel methods of distribution 293 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: and sales and reaching your audience before and the majors, 294 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: So the majors when they broke up for example, My 295 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: I mean, they've done this time and again, but my 296 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: particular moment, it wasn't like indie rock was like the 297 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: only time this ever happens, happened over and over and 298 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: over and over again in many many different genres to 299 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: the independent jazz world that you know, all these things 300 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: have gone through similar cycles. My particular world, you can 301 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: see it very clearly again to stick with with references 302 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: to your generation and my generation of artists. Um, you 303 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: can see it in Nirvana. So at that moment the 304 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: gas have found broke up was also the moment that 305 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: Nirvana was signed by Geffen and we all knew. We 306 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: were all all told because Nirvana was on another independent label, Subpop. 307 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 1: They were on our scene. We were playing the same 308 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: venues that they where. We were at all the mutual friends. 309 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: Everyone knew before the public knew that Nirvana was going 310 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: to be a huge hit and this was going to 311 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: change everything. And that's also why that's when Dean got 312 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: signed to a solo contract, everybody was already in gear 313 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: looking for more Kirk cobains, because it was like, Okay, 314 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: they can take something from our scene and turn it 315 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: into this other model, which is you have one hit 316 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: and a thousand failures, and that's just part of the model, right, 317 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: And so what what I witnessed in on my own 318 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: little scene in the late eighties early nineties was the 319 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: way that that all shook out. The difference to now 320 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: is that even though that happened, the rest of us 321 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: could continue our non major label model of distribution and 322 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: sales and of lemonade stand style business. And we did, 323 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: you know, Naomi and I formed to do. We signed 324 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: with sub Pop, which had been Nirvana's previous navel, and 325 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: continue making records and touring at the same kind of 326 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: scale budget that we always had, reaching the same sort 327 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: of curtailed subset of of a music audience that we 328 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: always had been a part of, and being played on 329 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: college radio, non on commercial radio, and not making videos 330 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: for MTV, etcetera. So that continued. And so what's changed 331 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: now is that there's no parallel network for distribution and sales. 332 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: So what digital did was, as in all our businesses 333 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 1: and all our communications, it uh scaled everything up through 334 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: fewer channels, and you don't really have another way now 335 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: of distributing music. There's no indie channel for um sales 336 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 1: and distribution online. We have to go through the same 337 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: channels that everybody does. It's Spotify, it's Apple, it's Amazon. 338 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: These are the biggest corporation. Well, Spotify is one of 339 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: the biggest corporations, but in music they're enormous. I mean, 340 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: their valuation on the stock market is bigger than the 341 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: major labels, and Apple and Amazon are literally among the 342 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: biggest corporations in the world. So we're talking about like 343 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: little me and also not just middle aged me, but 344 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: young versions of this of the pattern that I followed, 345 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: who really have no choices and no already established audience, 346 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: and no ways of navigating this outside the way that 347 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: everybody does. So everybody just has to put their music 348 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 1: up in the same platform. It's as if back then 349 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: in the eighties and nineties, we all had to put 350 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: our compete for this for the sales space in Kmart 351 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: and Walmart and and and eventually Target, instead of being 352 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: able to go to the independent record stores. If you 353 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: see what I mean, there's no other channel, and that's 354 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: the problem with with the model that's going on now 355 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: because there I mean, there are many problems that I'm 356 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: happy to go into, but the basic, basic one from 357 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: music music business point of view or a band's point 358 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: of view, is that there's no choice. And the other 359 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: thing is that these platforms treat us just like they 360 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: do consumers, where we're kind of just like another It's 361 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: just like Facebook, you know, we're just like users. We 362 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: don't get some special status because we're producing the content. 363 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: They treat us just like all social media. There's no 364 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: distinction really between content producers and consumers. So I just 365 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 1: have an account. Basically, I can't get anyone on the phone. 366 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: I can't ask a question can you update? Like can 367 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: you write your band bio or anything like that. They're 368 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: very limited ways in which you can interact with these platforms, 369 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: just like there are on any platform. Like yeah, you 370 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: can change your profile picture, you know, it's it's it 371 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: doesn't go much beyond that. On Spotify, you can't just 372 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: upload your music Spotify. They're a handful of distributors that 373 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,199 Speaker 1: have access to that obvious. The three major levels are 374 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: the main ones they hold. I forget the exact percentage, 375 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: it's over the copyrights that are on there. The Indians 376 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: go through consolidators that are approved and have an account 377 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: with them. It's already limited in that way. It does 378 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: make room for independent artists and all kinds of ours, 379 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: everything can be up there. Theoretically that's important to their 380 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: business model, but that doesn't give us any status beyond 381 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: really essentially just another user on the account. They create 382 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 1: websites that we can interact with in this extremely limited, 383 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: condescending manner and change, you know, tiny little bits of 384 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: the of the individual page, but really so limited that 385 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 1: it's ridiculous, but limited enough that I've gone on Spotify 386 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: and our one artist official playlists that we're allowed to 387 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: create is called I forgot exactly jording. I said, Damon, 388 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: you have me official downloads available on band camp. That's 389 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: the name of the playlist, so that if you click 390 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: on it, if you look for the artist official playlists, 391 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: it will be called go to band camp. And of 392 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: course Spotify doesn't notice that and take it down because 393 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: they're not looking at my account. So I mean, Galaxy 394 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: is there's probably a lot of listeners on Spotify still 395 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,239 Speaker 1: I presume I don't know. I mean it comes up 396 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 1: on my playlist a lot but I guess that's because 397 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: I listened to it, But I presume that on sort 398 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: of related artists it's probably I don't know, above it 399 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: for people who are fans of a certain style of 400 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:28,239 Speaker 1: indie pop comes up decently. What do you get from that? Like? 401 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: What are the benefits to you? And you know, obviously 402 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: one of the things that people talk about all the 403 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 1: time is like, Okay, yeah, you're not gonna people musicians 404 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: don't make that much recording, but other things live concerts 405 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: and so forth, Like what does that look like as 406 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: a not huge but also not irrelevant indie band? Now 407 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: the sort of the ongoing listenership of Spotify, I think 408 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: you said there have been something like sixty two million 409 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: users or sixty two million streams of your song, Like, 410 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: what's the benefit to you from there's only really one 411 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: for a band like Cars, which is no longer performing. 412 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: We haven't played a show as God's Fence, so um, 413 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: But that's not irrelevant because the bulk of streaming on 414 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 1: Spotify is catalog, because the platform is actually oriented toward 415 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: non working bands or anyway old records catalog. So it's 416 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: no surprise. Why is that? How sorry? How is like 417 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: in what sends. Does Spotify oriented itself towards non working well, 418 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: is it? Really? It's a great question. I mean, one 419 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: of the things that that Spotify is not is transparent. 420 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: So we don't know how those algorithms work, and they 421 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: won't share that information. So why my band, my old 422 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: band might pop up on your feed, will never know. 423 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: But I'll tell you this, if we pay Spotify to 424 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: boost our work in their algorithm, they tell us, they 425 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: brag about it, that it will it will come up 426 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: more often. I didn't even know that. I didn't even 427 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: know there was a thing paying to be well, it 428 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: shouldn't even be legal, is what you was. The other 429 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: thing you might say, I didn't even know that was legal, 430 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 1: because if it was radio or analog distribution, it would 431 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: not be legal. That is payola. Those these were fights 432 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: that were fought in the nineties, fifties and sixties about 433 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: radio broadcast because radio becomes so powerful and corrupt and famous. 434 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: DJ got caught and there was congressional action about it. 435 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: So paola wasn't illegal before Congress got involved. Spotify is 436 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: in a digital space. They claim they're not governed by 437 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: radio broadcast rules, and so they say they're not covered 438 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: by payola rules, so they have an official marketing. It's 439 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: two sided marketplace. They bragg a better in their investment 440 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: call and their investor calls. It's the discovery mode. They 441 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: call it Capital D and it's a program where this 442 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: is This is the small way. They say it's not payola. 443 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: They say they're not taking cash. They're taking a lower 444 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: royalty on selected tracks. But for all we know, there 445 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 1: are other ways that they are taking cash because their 446 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: contracts with the major labels, for example, are privately held 447 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: and never disclosed. So we've always believed in the industry, 448 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: those of us who watched this, that the playlists were 449 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: for sale. How could they not be Radio always was 450 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: radio continued to be after payal the laws, just in 451 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: third party arrangements so called radio promoters who handled the 452 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: cash in between. I mean, this is in my experience 453 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: and my direct understanding knowledge, So how could it not 454 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: be on Spotify, which is even so powerful these playlists, 455 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: so in any case, but then loan behol while we're 456 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: busy accusing them of that. But officially, just but just officially, 457 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: we don't. There's no evidence as such, other than the 458 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: part about how you can an artist can agree to 459 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 1: take a lower royalty and theoretic right, but taking here, 460 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: but here's the evidence. I mean, for one, taking Lottle 461 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: royalty is paying Spotify obviously say currently they say they're 462 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: algorithms are based on the consumer's interest, right, Like so 463 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: if you if you're wondering why this gaspel fund to 464 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 1: come up in your playlist, you'd be thinking, what is 465 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 1: it about my taste? That's the first thing you said 466 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: as you introduced it. But if that's the case, how 467 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: could it change by if you give them a lower 468 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: royalty on a given track? Is not editorial placement on 469 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: They have two types of placement on playlists. One is editorial, 470 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: one is algorithmic. They distinguish them even on their reports 471 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: to us. They give gasp Funder, for example, next to 472 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: no editorial placement. I don't know if that's because I've 473 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: been so vocal, but I will tell you that Damon 474 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: and Naomi, my own personal band, gets zero editorial placement. 475 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: They give us a percentage of our plays based on playlists, 476 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: and the percentage for editorial placement is zero percent. And 477 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: other artists who are very active and critiquing Spotify have 478 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: a similar issue. Now I'm not saying I know that 479 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: that's why, but I will put it out there that 480 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: we know what for For what is the breakdown of 481 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,719 Speaker 1: algorithmic streams versus editorial I think editorial streams for Galaxy 482 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: is something like five of our total stream so that's 483 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: next to nothing. In others we have not been given 484 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: the benefit of their is they're officially declared editorial interventions, 485 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: which is they create a playlist that's like, this is 486 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: the music you should listen to if you like. Now, 487 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: then there's the other type, which is algorithmic. Now, the 488 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: algorithmic playlists, which both both of my bands get to 489 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: various degrees and it swerves around with time, are totally opaque. 490 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: We have no way of knowing what what is doing this. 491 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: But they have now admitted by bragging for their own 492 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 1: marketing program making this available from manipulation, that if you 493 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: cut them a deal, they will boost it so that 494 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: that's the algorithm that's not the editorial side. So this 495 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: is the side that's supposedly based on nothing. But you 496 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: know all this data that they're collecting, so obviously the 497 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 1: data is manipulatable, that the algorithm is manipulatable. I mean 498 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: of course it is theoretically anyway, because human beings create 499 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: those algorithms and make choices. But this is officially saying 500 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: it is manipulatable for business purposes. Now, once you get 501 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: that understanding of how Spotify is working, then it starts 502 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: to open up a whole lot of other explanations of 503 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: how their entire business model is working. Because let's not forget, 504 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: since we're on a business podcast, Spotify declares a loss 505 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: nearly every quarter on music. Music is a losing proposition 506 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: for Spotify, according to them. And yet I'm sure a 507 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: lot of people are listening to this have invested in 508 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: Spotify and are not thinking they're losing punk cop proposition, 509 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: because of course they aren't. But music is a loss 510 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: leader for them. That's what they That's what they claim. 511 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: So where is their profit coming from? And that's what 512 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: you really got to start to look at with Spotify. 513 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: It's obviously coming from like other tech platforms that give 514 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: away their product for free, their content for free, It's 515 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: coming from data. Uh, It's coming from two sided marketplace 516 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: deals like Paola. It's coming from the stock market, from 517 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: capital investment, from growth, it's coming from market share that 518 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: they leverage in all kinds of other ways that have 519 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: nothing to do with music, So they move further and 520 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: further from the lemonade stand version of music. It's not 521 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: my product or galaxy of hundreds product that makes Spotify 522 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: any money anyway, and that's crucial to seeing what what 523 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: what's wrong with the with the industry? Well, let me, 524 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: I mean the whole reason Spotify is back in the news, 525 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: And I mentioned this in the intro, of course, Neil 526 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: Young saying he's going to take his music off of Spotify, 527 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: ostensibly out of his anger about their contract with Joe Rogan. 528 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: But how much is that as sort of in your view, 529 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: I guess a, I don't know, an excuse, but as 530 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: sort of like trigger point of there's already a number 531 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: of musicians large and small, frustrated with Spotify. Spotify, in 532 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: your view, doesn't care that much about musicians. It may 533 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: view podcasts as more profitable and a potentially more durable 534 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: business model. So how much is the recent kerfuffle like 535 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: sort of like a bunch of people who didn't like 536 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: the model anyway suddenly like this is a good uh 537 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: rallying point to voice their displeasure with the platform. There 538 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: was certainly no no organization taking advantage of this current moment. 539 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: Neil Young did that as he's always done things in 540 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: his career completely on his own, without announcement and without 541 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: contacting groups like my group Union of Musicians and Allied 542 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: Workers that's been organizing very diligently for for over a 543 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: year about UM the financial model of Spotify UM. But 544 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: the flashpoint is telling for so many reasons. It's actually, 545 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: if you're interested in pursuing a musician's version of what's 546 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: going on with Rogan, I would look to India Ari, 547 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: who was very very articulate about putting together all these 548 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: various issues that are going on with Spotify, Joe Rogan's 549 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: racism being paramount because it speaks to a model of 550 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: discriminatory practices that are tied to the type of capitalized 551 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: businesses Spotify is. And that I mean, I don't think 552 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: you have to be a Marxist like I probably would 553 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: be identified by by some of your listeners to to 554 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: appreciate that these issues are tied together. On that how 555 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: you treat your labor force is tied to how you 556 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: reward your labor force and also how you you know 557 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: how you set up your business in terms of capital 558 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: and labor. Spotify is set up capital. They have no 559 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: connection to music. We are the labor that provides the 560 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: content on that platform, or that has built it to 561 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: at least in its first stage of development as a corporation, 562 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: to the point where they're on the New York Stock Exchange. 563 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: They are a music company, and they do not negotiate 564 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: with us. They do not extend us even the common 565 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: courtesy of having a relationship with us UH and they 566 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,479 Speaker 1: certainly don't reward us in any kind of way that 567 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: we consider most of us consider fair. And yet we 568 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: have no way of organizing and demanding anything from them. 569 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: We were not even at the table. They only cut 570 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: the deal with the three major labels, not their artists, 571 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: but just the labels themselves. And the way they cut 572 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 1: the deal, the way they entered the US market, was 573 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: they gave the three major labels ownership shares in Spotify 574 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: before they went public. Now this is how then the 575 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: labels cut them a deal that screwed their artists. They 576 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: cut them a deal of minuscule royalties because the royalties 577 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: from the major labels point of view passed through the 578 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: major label to the artist accounts. Ownership was held by 579 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: the corporation and was pure profit for the corporation, so 580 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: they traded ownership for decent royalty deals. So the artists 581 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: on the major labels were not any better represented than 582 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: I was without any seat at that table at all. 583 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: They were sold out by the majors. So the major 584 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: label artists are no happier with this than the rest 585 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: of us. Now. The one difference, though, is that there 586 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: are certain artists on the major labels who've been making 587 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: money hand over fists from streaming because what the model 588 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: does is consolidate it's more of the money in the 589 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: music industry into the top of the pyramid. It's it's 590 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: it's designed that way. The way they calculate royalties, they 591 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: put everything into one pot. It's called a pro roder 592 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: system that they capitalized on. The majors have proved this, 593 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: So my streams go into the same pot as Taylor 594 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: Swift streams, and then we each get paid back out 595 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: according to the percentage of all the total streaming that 596 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: we each hold. Mine is of zero to to disappearing 597 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: infinity compared to what the few people at the top hold. 598 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: Now we get back to the whole question of the 599 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: playlists and the algorithm where Spotify is steering consumers to listen. 600 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: Of course, they're steering them towards a handful of places, 601 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: because the whole thing is designed to consolidate as much 602 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: all the money in the industry into the top. Then 603 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 1: we get to the podcast because here's the magic for podcasts. 604 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: From Spotify's point view, you might have been wondering, why 605 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: are they spending so much money on podcasting. Podcasting doesn't 606 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,879 Speaker 1: seem that lucrative. I mean, in present company, I'm sorry, 607 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: podcasting as is not that lucrative in it for a 608 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 1: lot of reasons. But of course he has a lot 609 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: of listenerships, so you know, can you turn that into 610 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: money somehow? Here's the thing for Spotify. There's no royalties 611 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: on podcasts, so Joe Rogan streams have no royalties to 612 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: pay right, Taylor Swifts do Adele's do. It may be 613 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: from my point of view, too little the Spotify sharing 614 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: for the royalties, but from Spotify review, it is a 615 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: serious expense, and the more they stream music, the more 616 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: that expense goes up. It's one to one. They can't 617 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: get around it except by pulling cacamam schemes like reduce 618 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: your royalty and will boost your algorithm. Right that what 619 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: they're after is reducing their overhead. I mean again, it's 620 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: just back to the that's lemonade stand I understand they're 621 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: trying to reduce their royalty exposure. They only have two 622 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: ways to do it, pay musicians even less or get 623 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: to stuff that doesn't have royalties. So they're doing it 624 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 1: in multiple ways. One is podcasting. There's no royalties on podcasts, 625 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: as you know. Second, they're commissioning music and owning content. Now, 626 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,439 Speaker 1: there's another long standing scandal in the music world that 627 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 1: didn't get out to the general media, but did enough 628 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: in the music press that is commonly accepted now of 629 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: the so called fake artists. This is because Spotify at 630 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: the at the top of some of Spotify's most popular 631 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: playlist So that means all the money and Spotify is 632 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,919 Speaker 1: in the play lists, okay, because you go on the site, 633 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: they push you to a playlist that then they control 634 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: what you what you're going to stream, and it's not 635 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: just on the popular place at the top of the playlist. 636 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: Because of course, how many songs you listen from the 637 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: beginning and how how deep do you get into playlist, well, 638 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 1: most listeners just get a few songs in, so all 639 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,839 Speaker 1: the money is caused. It's the same pyramid thing. All 640 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,799 Speaker 1: the money is concentrated in the top of the top playlists. 641 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,399 Speaker 1: That's where the bulk of the streaming is happening. That's 642 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 1: why payola is so crucial here, because of course, getting 643 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,240 Speaker 1: on the top of the playlist will make you a living. 644 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,879 Speaker 1: What is Spotify do to to reduce their royalty exposure? Well, 645 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: they started inserting tracks in those playlists and those popular 646 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: playlists that they own. How did they do that without 647 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: consumers noticing? They created fake bios for fake artists, That's 648 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: what That's why it's called fake artists with you know, 649 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,720 Speaker 1: photos that they pulled off of the internet, fake bios 650 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: and a song title and they slip it in to 651 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: a playlist. I mean, is this just on like you 652 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: instrumental sort of ambiance? No? No, no, no, no no, no, 653 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: it's anything, it's anything. So there other fake country musician, Well, 654 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: I don't know specifically country, but there are fake well 655 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: so called fake there are fake tracks scattered throughout Spotify. 656 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 1: The only way we know about them is that journalists, 657 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: investigative journalists figured it out. They figured it out by 658 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: not recognizing a name at the top of the playlist 659 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 1: and googling it, finding a bio page and then finding 660 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: no other links. It didn't have any existence. These artists 661 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 1: have no other existence anywhere in the world except at 662 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: the very very top tier of one of the top 663 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: tier playlists. So it's clear that it's Spotify owned and 664 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,800 Speaker 1: not just someone who used like one of the aggregators 665 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: to upload because I found that, because you can trust 666 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: the copyright. And where did this music come from? There 667 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,919 Speaker 1: all come from Swedish recording studios Spotify. The Swedish company 668 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: Spotify said well, these aren't fake artists. These were created 669 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: by these producers in Sweden that that we paid to 670 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: produce this music got it. So their argument is what 671 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: do you mean fake? This is as real music as 672 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: anything else. And now you get into another set of 673 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: investments to Spotify has been making, which is into AI. 674 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 1: What is AI going to do for them or is 675 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: already doing for them? You can create sound like music 676 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 1: that people can't distinguish in terms of style or you know, 677 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,839 Speaker 1: so you feed in, take the take whatever is at 678 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: the top of the charts at the moment, feed it 679 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,760 Speaker 1: all into AI and have it spit out a track 680 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: that's enough like it that a listener on a playlist, 681 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: as passive listener on a Spotify playlist, will not stop 682 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,320 Speaker 1: the playlist and move away from the from it, letting 683 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: go continue when they hear it is maybe not an 684 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: artist they recognize, but they accept it going past them. 685 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,879 Speaker 1: It sound I'm just looking. I'm reading a I pulled 686 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,879 Speaker 1: up a Variety article from and it sort of gets 687 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: at this, and they deny that fake artists exists, although 688 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: the Variety article sites insiders who say that it is about, 689 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: as you say, reducing the streaming royalties that they owe, 690 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 1: the leverage that they have against the record labels. So yeah, 691 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: but I think if you look at the language of 692 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 1: their denial, all they're saying is that these are real people. 693 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,360 Speaker 1: But the fact that they own those tracks is the 694 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: crucial part here. I mean, whether it's an artist that 695 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: they signed to their own label like Rogan, that they 696 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: own a percent. So the key with the difference would 697 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: be essentially in your view, that they are real people, 698 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: but have Spotify commissioned the songs and therefore the royalties 699 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: they're not leaving, They're not They're not going as far 700 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: they're not well, they're not going anywhere they own. The 701 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: problem is Spotify cannot be and this is the Rogan 702 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: controversy has brought this to the fore, and I've been 703 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 1: really happy to see this terminology surface in the mainstream 704 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,879 Speaker 1: press about it. Spotify cannot be a platform if they're 705 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,360 Speaker 1: also a producer, right there, a producer of music tracks. 706 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: We have known this for years in the music business. 707 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: We have been screaming about this. Nobody cared, of course 708 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,840 Speaker 1: outside the music industry, and those who are running the 709 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,800 Speaker 1: show don't care because they're making money hand over fist. 710 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 1: I mean, the estimates are that the major levels are 711 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: making a million dollars a minute from streaming. So obviously, 712 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: I mean, we started this conversation and you know, as 713 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: you point out the beginning, Galaxy never aspired to be 714 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: like a true like pop band that was going to 715 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 1: have like a megahad. Wasn't your seeing the lemonade stand 716 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: business model. Nonetheless, the pop scene has always existed the 717 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,240 Speaker 1: hits driven record you know, whether it's radio stations, record 718 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: store CDs, etcetera. That's always existed just within the realm 719 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: of pop setting. Aside, the end of the lemonade stand model. 720 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:50,840 Speaker 1: Has it gotten even more skewed? Is streaming royalties to 721 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: the handful of artists that make a killing on it, 722 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: like the Taylor Swift, like the Adeles? Is it even 723 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: more skewed than it used to be if we went 724 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: back to say, record sales and radio plays in the 725 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: era of say Madonna, Well, here there's some squish nous 726 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: because it's very hard to compare one to one because 727 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: there has been a sea change from analog to digital 728 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: in terms of how the business is structured and how 729 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: the royalties are calculated, etcetera. I think everybody feels that 730 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:24,959 Speaker 1: it has gotten more concentrated. I don't know of any 731 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: good studies that I can point to two that make 732 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 1: the case with numbers. I hope they're out there. If 733 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,840 Speaker 1: they're not, I hope somebody's working on it. But it 734 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: is a kind of a difficult thing to compare. And 735 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,399 Speaker 1: this is a lot of the discussions around what's wrong 736 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:44,319 Speaker 1: with streaming sometimes quickly revert to, well, how many hours 737 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 1: we're making a living in right versus today. It's just 738 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: not the type of calculation that's that that exists because again, 739 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: because the business was decentralized so much more. And I 740 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: think that even framing the question those terms is an 741 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: indication of how centralized it is now. We do have 742 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 1: the figures for right now and here they are, according 743 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: to Spotify themselves. Because so my my scrappy group of 744 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,840 Speaker 1: independent arts, self employed artists that got together during COVID 745 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: and are forming a new union called the Union of 746 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,359 Speaker 1: Musicians and Allied Workers Union of Musicians dot org. We 747 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 1: launched our own punk rock campaign to alert people to 748 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 1: what's going on with Spotify and streaming in general. But 749 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,880 Speaker 1: we used Spotify as our target because they're they're running 750 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: the show, they have the largest market share, and they're 751 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: they're such a good enemy because they put the foot 752 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: in their mouth all the time. So we chose them well, 753 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: i'd say, as this podcast proves. And you know, we 754 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: launched a campaign called Justices Spotify, and we've got all 755 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: close to thirty thou musicians have signed onto it. It's 756 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 1: it's it's it's really it's made ripples in the music world, 757 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: and it certainly has called Spotify's attention, because then they 758 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 1: launched a website to answer our accusations called Loud and Clear, 759 00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 1: and that was a website just directed to it's like 760 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 1: a giant f a Q with their talking points counted 761 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 1: to our arguments for what's wrong with Spotify on that website. 762 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 1: So this is on Spotify's own pr designed to counter 763 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: musicians complaints. They say, wait, look how many people are 764 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: making a living from from Spotify and they say it's 765 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: thirteen thousand, four hundred globally are grossing fifty thou dollars 766 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: a year or more? Okay, so this is their claim 767 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: to the success of this model. It's very hard numbers 768 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 1: so well as they're just like lift a little corner. Now, 769 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 1: the only reason they said that was they thought it 770 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: sounded so good. First of all, their mission statement was 771 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:44,680 Speaker 1: to make a million artists a living. Four hundred is 772 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: not a million. They're off by nine eight, seven thousand whatever. Right, 773 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,839 Speaker 1: they're wildly off. And now let's consider what fifty thou 774 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 1: grows is for a musician, typically for a band, or 775 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: for any artist, there is a label involved. We talked 776 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 1: before about how Spotify doesn't even platform unless you go 777 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,960 Speaker 1: through at least a distributor, but mostly the lion share 778 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,239 Speaker 1: of stuff on there is from the majors over and 779 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,400 Speaker 1: then you've got all the independent labels on top of that, 780 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,719 Speaker 1: So most people on Spotify are on a record label. 781 00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: Labels have various deals. Of course as a private contracts 782 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 1: privately negotiated, but as a rule of thumb, you can 783 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 1: assume the labels taking at least fifty of that income. Okay, 784 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: so now we're talking thousand dollars a year for thirteen 785 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: and a half thousand artists globally. Now, so you get 786 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: twenty five dollars in for a year. Now that's gross. 787 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 1: Say you're in a band, say you're in Galaxy off 788 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: I foundred that has three members that split the money evenly. Well, 789 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 1: now you're earning a third of dollars gross. That's without 790 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,359 Speaker 1: any percentage that goes to management, distribution, all the other 791 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,840 Speaker 1: overhead that any artist has producing product that gets itself 792 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,839 Speaker 1: on Spotify. So you're talking about below minimum wage. And 793 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,799 Speaker 1: this is the figure that they're bragging about as their 794 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 1: big model of success. They have drained the music industry. 795 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: Streaming is now eight of all revenue in the US 796 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:16,960 Speaker 1: for recorded music, all revenue from all sources, and of 797 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:21,319 Speaker 1: that Spotify as alliance share. So yes, it's a little 798 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: bit more from the other platform. So if you're making 799 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,560 Speaker 1: k from Spotify. Yeah, you're probably making I don't know, SEV, 800 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: but you're not really making that. You're making less than 801 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: minimum wage. So what have we traded for this global 802 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 1: model for most of us, for almost all of us, nothing, 803 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,319 Speaker 1: We get nothing out of it. I could make that 804 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,360 Speaker 1: money back with with two tho LPs or less, but 805 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,400 Speaker 1: they're making it impossible for me to do that. I 806 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 1: have to go through Spotify, and that's the problem. So 807 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 1: before we wrap up, but we just have a couple 808 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,399 Speaker 1: of minutes left, I want to ask a couple of 809 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: quick questions about this, because this is where I was 810 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: about to go. I mean, first of all, you know 811 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:02,319 Speaker 1: you're talking about okay, just modified but versus say the 812 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 1: late n A band can raise their profile in all 813 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,879 Speaker 1: different kinds of ways, and there's Twitter, and there's Instagram, 814 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,920 Speaker 1: and there's Facebook, and so sure, maybe the record stores 815 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,759 Speaker 1: that network maybe is uh diminished, although there are still 816 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 1: our record stores and some independent music stores. But what 817 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 1: if someone says, like, you know, look, it's two Yes, 818 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,520 Speaker 1: there are obviously things that have gotten more skewed. On 819 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,400 Speaker 1: the other hand, the ability of a musician or a 820 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: band to become a name to promote themselves. They don't 821 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 1: have to go through a record label anymore. There are 822 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: other things that have countervailed that that allows someone to 823 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:42,160 Speaker 1: get awareness and build fans on the internet and monetize 824 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,279 Speaker 1: their music in some different ways. Why why does that 825 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,400 Speaker 1: not work? Why why does it not counteract by the 826 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:50,800 Speaker 1: fact that there's all these new platforms for an artist 827 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,640 Speaker 1: to promote themselves, well, because none of them are are monetizing. 828 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you stick monetizing monetizing in there, but but 829 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: the platforms you mentioned are not. Don't pay. Twitter hasn't 830 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,000 Speaker 1: pay your Facebook doesn't pay you. So the only modernization 831 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 1: that has been open to artists in the streaming era 832 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:10,000 Speaker 1: is live performance. And it is absolutely true that you 833 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,759 Speaker 1: can leverage your exposure. I mean it's basically, we're all 834 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,279 Speaker 1: interns through our recorded music to the music industry, and 835 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,759 Speaker 1: then we're supposed to make our living live. I mean, 836 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,839 Speaker 1: the truth is only some type of bands can make 837 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 1: a living live. I mean, live music doesn't fit all 838 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:27,480 Speaker 1: the models of the type of music that you might 839 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 1: want to listen to and recorded music, and there are 840 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,920 Speaker 1: entire genres of music that can't really turn a profit live, 841 00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,040 Speaker 1: like jazz, for example. I mean there's a whole. There's 842 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,280 Speaker 1: a whole, there's a whole, vast amounts of recorded music 843 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:44,359 Speaker 1: that cannot translate into will go hit the road and 844 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,560 Speaker 1: just live that way. Then there are a whole lot 845 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,799 Speaker 1: of personalities and lifestyles that don't fit that way. Then 846 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:51,040 Speaker 1: there are a whole lot of people who fall to 847 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,080 Speaker 1: pieces on the road because you know, actually going on 848 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,319 Speaker 1: the road is is a tall order, okay from And 849 00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:58,920 Speaker 1: there's a reason why we have all these stories, and 850 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 1: there's a reason why the end of Kirk Evans story 851 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,239 Speaker 1: is what it is. But here's what happened in the 852 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,399 Speaker 1: last two years, which is COVID, so all of live 853 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:11,240 Speaker 1: music shut down. That's why my group got together Union 854 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:15,000 Speaker 1: musicians and allied workers because we were all unemployed because 855 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,960 Speaker 1: our only employment in the streaming era has been live performance. 856 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:23,319 Speaker 1: That is only monetization available to us. All the modernization 857 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,120 Speaker 1: channels of recorded music have been swallowed by streaming. That's 858 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,320 Speaker 1: that pie chart that the r i A, the Record 859 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,880 Speaker 1: Labels Association takes note of every year that's now up 860 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 1: to from streaming. What's left in that seventeen is everything 861 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,480 Speaker 1: else you can think of. It includes soundtracks for films, 862 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,680 Speaker 1: uh selling to commercials. It includes radio performance, it includes 863 00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 1: satellite radio, it includes everything else you can think of 864 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 1: that monetizes recorded music. Streaming has taken it all. It's 865 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,000 Speaker 1: done it by going into all the other markets and 866 00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,720 Speaker 1: swallowing them. For example, back when we had coffee shops 867 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,240 Speaker 1: and bars, they play music, and they're supposed to play 868 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,680 Speaker 1: and we pick up a small license from that music. 869 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,480 Speaker 1: But what are they doing If you ever ask your barista, 870 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,080 Speaker 1: they're playing their own personal Spotify account when on a 871 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,440 Speaker 1: phone plugged into the onto the machine. They're not supposed 872 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:17,960 Speaker 1: to do it. And if you dig and dig and 873 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:19,920 Speaker 1: dig on Spotify's website, you will come up with a 874 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,399 Speaker 1: page that says, do not use this for commercial situations. 875 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,200 Speaker 1: But boy, they don't work very hard to let people 876 00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,560 Speaker 1: know that do that. In fact, Starbucks as a deal 877 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:32,200 Speaker 1: with Spotify where they give free premium accounts to every employee. 878 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:34,799 Speaker 1: I mean, you can see what that does, right, So 879 00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,040 Speaker 1: we lose that. Satellite radio it was a good income 880 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,399 Speaker 1: stream that was coming up because of they were being 881 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,960 Speaker 1: installed in all the new cars. And there's a different 882 00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,320 Speaker 1: royalty model for salar radio that's very secure for musicians 883 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,799 Speaker 1: that was set up by Congress in the nineties that 884 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,759 Speaker 1: was really booming. I mean, it wasn't a lot of money, 885 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 1: but it was going up straight line up. And now 886 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,200 Speaker 1: it's going straight down because of course, what is everyone 887 00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 1: playing in their cars? They stream instead of playing salid 888 00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:02,920 Speaker 1: raid because you don't have to play, you don't have 889 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,520 Speaker 1: to pay the subscription Sali radio or maybe already have 890 00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 1: one subscription to streaming service. You just use that. So 891 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,440 Speaker 1: all these other channels branding, To take a great example, 892 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:16,040 Speaker 1: people think, oh, you build your your thing. Brands put 893 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,839 Speaker 1: on playlists on Spotify. They put our music on. They 894 00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:20,200 Speaker 1: don't have to negotiate with us. They don't have to 895 00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:22,880 Speaker 1: pay us anything for that because it's just another playlist 896 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:26,160 Speaker 1: on Spotify, Nike presents whatever the hell they want to 897 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,160 Speaker 1: label it. It used to be a brand wants student 898 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,560 Speaker 1: wants to associate themselves with your music. That was a 899 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,560 Speaker 1: big payday. The biggest payday Galax five hundred ever got 900 00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,279 Speaker 1: was from Honda who used thirty seconds of instrumental track 901 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,920 Speaker 1: of ours in a television commercial. That was a huge 902 00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 1: pay day for us, more than our record royalties that 903 00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,799 Speaker 1: we ever managed to collect from our labels. Um that 904 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:49,879 Speaker 1: we were assigned to before we took made our own label. 905 00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,800 Speaker 1: That's much better. But in any case, that doesn't exist anymore. 906 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,960 Speaker 1: Honda wants to have a playlist on Spotify, they just 907 00:50:56,080 --> 00:51:01,040 Speaker 1: build it. Do they pay Spotify? Probably to Spotify report 908 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,399 Speaker 1: that back as music income? No, right, you see how 909 00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 1: this goes, so that that's what's going on. Spotify has 910 00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,040 Speaker 1: a model. It's unregulated. There are no set royalties from 911 00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,319 Speaker 1: anything except the three major label contracts that they did. 912 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:19,239 Speaker 1: And that's a very winning model for destroying the music industry. 913 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,759 Speaker 1: But here's the kicker that I really want to emphasize 914 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:25,200 Speaker 1: for your listeners in particular, it's not a winning profit model. 915 00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,120 Speaker 1: They still say they don't make money on music, and 916 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,000 Speaker 1: I believe them because look where they're putting their money. 917 00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,600 Speaker 1: They're putting their money in Joe Rogan. And that gets 918 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:37,000 Speaker 1: back to why Neil Young calling out Joe Rogan, which 919 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,960 Speaker 1: he had every reason to do, was explosive because it 920 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,640 Speaker 1: actually speaks to the whole problem and in the ari 921 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,360 Speaker 1: put it all together, even putting it together with racial 922 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,680 Speaker 1: issues in the music industry, I mean, the music industry 923 00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,520 Speaker 1: has a long, ugly history of making money from black 924 00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,400 Speaker 1: artists that go to white executives, and you've got to 925 00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,680 Speaker 1: look at this tie to that too. Well, Damon, this 926 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,000 Speaker 1: was a fascinating conversation, and I'm sure there's plenty of 927 00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:07,120 Speaker 1: more roads and other aspects of all of this that 928 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:08,960 Speaker 1: we could go down, but I think that's a good, 929 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,680 Speaker 1: uh place to stop it. Really really appreciate you coming 930 00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:15,320 Speaker 1: out odd Life. Thank you for having me, really appreciate it. 931 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:28,880 Speaker 1: Take care of them. Well, that was for me. I 932 00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,000 Speaker 1: loved having that conversation. Like I said at the beginning, 933 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:36,160 Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of Damon's music and a galaxy, 934 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:40,160 Speaker 1: but that really did actually put some pieces together for 935 00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:43,480 Speaker 1: me about the frustration because in my view or the 936 00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:45,840 Speaker 1: way I thought about it before, it was like the music, 937 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:50,160 Speaker 1: the music industry is always brutal. Very few people actually 938 00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:54,560 Speaker 1: get to become superstar musicians or make a living at 939 00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,680 Speaker 1: Anyone who ever has made a living at recorded music 940 00:52:57,719 --> 00:52:59,960 Speaker 1: has of course been very lucky. But this sort of 941 00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,800 Speaker 1: comparison that he made between the the the hits driven 942 00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,520 Speaker 1: pop model, which has always been hits driven, versus what 943 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,520 Speaker 1: he called the lemonade stand model, where you can not 944 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:13,680 Speaker 1: expect to make a gigantic hit, but maybe between record 945 00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:17,239 Speaker 1: sales and touring taken a bit more income than the 946 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,600 Speaker 1: cost to put it all on. That really clicked for me, 947 00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:22,880 Speaker 1: and that was that was really strike against. So this 948 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,279 Speaker 1: idea that with the loss of most record stores, the 949 00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:29,759 Speaker 1: loss of the CD business, and recently, of course the 950 00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,319 Speaker 1: loss of live music, that really everyone is shuffled into 951 00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,399 Speaker 1: the hits business. That clicked to me. So I really 952 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,480 Speaker 1: enjoyed that conversation, and uh big thanks to Damon for 953 00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:44,000 Speaker 1: coming on. So this has been another episode of the 954 00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,400 Speaker 1: Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me 955 00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:51,600 Speaker 1: on Twitter at The Stalwart. Follow my co host Tracy Alloway. 956 00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:55,880 Speaker 1: She's at Tracy Alloway. Follow our guest Damon Kurkowski. His 957 00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:00,279 Speaker 1: handle is at Data Underscore Drummer. Follow our producer Laura 958 00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,680 Speaker 1: Carlson at Laura M. Carlson. Followed the Bloomberg head of 959 00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,759 Speaker 1: podcast Francesco Levi at Francesca Today, and check out all 960 00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:11,480 Speaker 1: of our podcasts at Bloomberg under the handle at podcasts. 961 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:12,480 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.