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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production

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Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd

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Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: This is Bridget Todd hosted There Are No Girls on

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Speaker 1: the Internet. It's been about a month since we started

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Speaker 1: this podcast, and it's already been such a challenging and

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Speaker 1: fun experience. To celebrate, I sat down with our contributing

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Speaker 1: producer Michael to give you all more information about who

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Speaker 1: I am and why I make this show. Well, Hi, Bridget,

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Speaker 1: Hi Michael, thanks for making time for me today. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for being willing to sit dad and talk. Sure, so,

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Speaker 1: Kandi critically acclaimed podcast. Uh, you know, how do you

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Speaker 1: feel about how the launch is gone? It's been good,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um, for folks who listened to my previous

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Speaker 1: podcast stuff Mom ever told you, you'll probably know. This

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Speaker 1: has been a long time coming. So I'm really happy

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Speaker 1: that it's finally in people's earbuds and the response has

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Speaker 1: been really great. It's been very fun, it's been very challenging.

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Speaker 1: It's been really cool to tell the stories of people

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Speaker 1: that I think deserve more attention and just to center

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Speaker 1: marginalized folks, you know, women people of color in conversations

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Speaker 1: about what it means to be on the internet. Why

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Speaker 1: was that important to you to tell these stories? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, when I first got the idea for Tank Godi,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of different things going on. I

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Speaker 1: remember seeing these awful instances of public acts of violence,

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Speaker 1: you know, like mass shootings and things like that. And

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Speaker 1: the thing that so many of them had in common

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Speaker 1: was that the perpetrator um in most cases, you know, men,

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Speaker 1: They had a history of violent rhetoric online, rhetoric about women.

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Speaker 1: And it seemed to me that anybody who was paying

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Speaker 1: attention would think, like, oh, this is uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: a warning sign we should take seriously. And I thought, Gee,

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Speaker 1: if only somebody had taken that seriously, if only somebody

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Speaker 1: had thought about what this person was writing online about

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Speaker 1: women and looked into it, maybe this wouldn't have happened.

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Speaker 1: Then I remember hearing about um, this woman, Shafika Hudson,

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Speaker 1: who had been making noise about the fact that somebody

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Speaker 1: on social media was impersonating black women in her online spaces.

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Speaker 1: And then I remember hearing that story and thinking, hum, okay,

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Speaker 1: And then flash forward a couple of years to the election,

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Speaker 1: seeing a State inquiry that that confirm that those same

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Speaker 1: tactics had happened, and that they were an attempt to

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Speaker 1: shift our election. And I thought, Gee, if only anybody

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Speaker 1: had taken her seriously when she talked about her experiences online,

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Speaker 1: maybe the election could have been different, Maybe things could

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Speaker 1: have been different. I saw those two big things happening.

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Speaker 1: But in my own life, even though I was someone

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Speaker 1: who had worked in tech spaces fans a lot of

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Speaker 1: her time online, I still was sort of compartmentalizing my

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Speaker 1: own space at my own experiences in tect I thought

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Speaker 1: of myself as someone who know wasn't really involved in

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Speaker 1: the internet, wasn't really involved in tech, despite the fact

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Speaker 1: that I was worked at tech companies and I released

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Speaker 1: all those things as as related the fact that these

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Speaker 1: experiences that marginalized people have online were so overlooked and

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Speaker 1: so ignored, and that the consequences for ignoring them were

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Speaker 1: so huge. But then in my own life I still

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Speaker 1: was having trouble sort of centering my experiences online. I

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Speaker 1: still thought like, oh, well, what what right do I

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Speaker 1: have to, you know, say anything to a tech leader,

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Speaker 1: or what right do I have to make make an

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Speaker 1: argument about the online experience, and so one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons why I wanted to make Tangoti is that I

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Speaker 1: want people to stop doing that. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: that as marginalized people, we it's so easy to believe,

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Speaker 1: it's so easy to internalize that our stories don't really

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Speaker 1: matter and that our experiences don't really matter. And I

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Speaker 1: just want to be part of a cultural paradigm ship

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Speaker 1: that says, no, we are the experts of our own experiences.

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Speaker 1: We you, if you use the internet every day, if

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Speaker 1: you're listening to this podcast, you have a right to

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Speaker 1: demand accountability from tech leaders, from tech platforms. You have

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Speaker 1: a right to expect that the experiences that we have,

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Speaker 1: and by we I mean other marginalized people, are going

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Speaker 1: to be told thoughtfully and centered, because that's what makes

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Speaker 1: being on the internet right. The Internet is so much

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Speaker 1: richer because there are so many different identities that make

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Speaker 1: the experience that much more rich. I love that. So

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Speaker 1: these stories need to be told to make us all

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Speaker 1: richer by hearing them. Why are you the person to

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Speaker 1: tell these stories? That's a great question. I've spent most

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Speaker 1: of my life amplifying the stories of marginalized people, specifically

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Speaker 1: black women, but also other marginalized identities. Um, I think

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Speaker 1: that I'm the right person to tell these stories because

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Speaker 1: for so long I yearned for them. Tony Morrison has

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Speaker 1: this quote that she became the writer that she needed

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Speaker 1: when she was younger. And for all the experiences I've

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Speaker 1: had online, I just wish that there was someone who

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Speaker 1: was compile ailing them and archiving them and amplifying them.

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Speaker 1: And so why not me. You've been making podcasts for

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Speaker 1: a while now, right, Oh, yes, I my first job,

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Speaker 1: so I've been a long time podcast appreciator. Um, but

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Speaker 1: my first job in podcasting was like back in unty eleven,

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Speaker 1: uh this, And so if you know anything about podcasts,

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Speaker 1: you know that like the big sort of shift in

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Speaker 1: podcasting that we thought about podcasting is like a real

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Speaker 1: medium was when cerial came out. But my time in

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Speaker 1: podcasting predates that. So I have to pick of myself

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Speaker 1: as like the old guard, you know, the o g um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my first job in podcasting was working as a producer

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Speaker 1: on a show called The Flaming Sort of Justice. Um.

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Speaker 1: It was a podcast about activism and organizing. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've just been it's it's I loved it. I've loved

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Speaker 1: it ever since then, I've I've been a long time

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Speaker 1: podcast appreciator. What are some of the foundational podcasts that

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Speaker 1: you listen to? If you had a name too? Maybe three? Okay,

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Speaker 1: well number one will always be Um Starley Kind's Mystery Show.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately it was short lived. There's only a handful of episodes.

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Speaker 1: But if you're looking for an episode to start with,

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Speaker 1: the episode about Britney Spears, I think is the pinnacle

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Speaker 1: of what the medium can be. You know it Like

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Speaker 1: when I first heard it it, I thought, like this,

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Speaker 1: this podcasting is going to change everything Like it was.

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Speaker 1: I had never heard storytelling like it. And so the

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Speaker 1: the the idea is that Starley Kind, the host and producer,

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Speaker 1: she gets a new mystery every episode, a mystery that

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Speaker 1: can't be solved by just like googling it, and so

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Speaker 1: she has to go through these deep dives of solving

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Speaker 1: these mysteries and it really is just something really special.

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Speaker 1: It's and unfortunately they're no longer making new episodes. But

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Speaker 1: Starley Kind is like the in my mind, she's like

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Speaker 1: the Beyonce of podcasting. There's she's so good. You said,

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Speaker 1: you've never heard stories told like that? What what is

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Speaker 1: it about? Podcasts that you think is differ from other

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Speaker 1: medium That's a great question. Um, when I first got

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Speaker 1: really into podcast. So this is gonna sound kind of depressing,

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Speaker 1: but and depressing and also uh like um extreme, but

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Speaker 1: I mean it the way I say it. When I

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Speaker 1: first got really into podcast, I had moved from the

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Speaker 1: East Coast to San Francisco, and I moved there for work.

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Speaker 1: And I moved there side on Sena I never visited,

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Speaker 1: I've never been before. And I moved there for a job,

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Speaker 1: a kind of tech adjacent job at a mobile phone company,

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Speaker 1: UM called Credo Mobile and shout out to people Credo Mobile. UM.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it was a hard It was a

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Speaker 1: tough time in my life. I had a really hard

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Speaker 1: time meeting people. I had a really hard time making friends.

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Speaker 1: I you know, spent every day thinking like did I

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Speaker 1: make a mistake moving out here. Also, this was you know,

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Speaker 1: San Francisco, This was like the heart like the beginning

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Speaker 1: of San Francisco's tech boom, really changing the landscape of

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Speaker 1: what San Francisco was. And so you know, I grew

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Speaker 1: up thinking San Francisco was this like hippie wonderland, and

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Speaker 1: I was excited for that. But when I got there,

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Speaker 1: it was something very different and truly the sounds like

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Speaker 1: like very over the top, and maybe it is, but

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Speaker 1: it was podcasts that really kind of saved my life.

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Speaker 1: Like if it wasn't for podcasts, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: I would have how I would have gotten through that time.

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Speaker 1: What podcasts are you listening to? Then? So at that

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Speaker 1: point in my life, the podcast I was listening to

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Speaker 1: the most was one called A Yeah dude, um, full disclosure,

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Speaker 1: it is not it is a it is purely a

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Speaker 1: comedy podcast. It's it's not I mean, there's more than that.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, they're they're documenting their own American American

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Speaker 1: experience exactly exactly. So I don't I don't want to

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Speaker 1: make it seem like this is like when you asked

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Speaker 1: somebody like, oh, what's your favorite movie and they feel

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Speaker 1: pressure to be like Citizen Kane but really but really

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Speaker 1: it's like clueless, you know. So it was just it

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Speaker 1: was it's not it's not like it was not like

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Speaker 1: a very like highbrow show, but there, but like something

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Speaker 1: about it made me feel like I was talking to

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Speaker 1: friends and I would I would like go to sleep

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Speaker 1: while listening to this podcast and headphones. You know, when

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Speaker 1: I was after work, I would like rush home to

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Speaker 1: my empty apartment to listen to this podcast, right like

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Speaker 1: it was the thing that made me feel connected to

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Speaker 1: the world and made me feel like I wasn't so alone.

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Speaker 1: Why what is it about podcasting that makes that connection?

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Speaker 1: There's there's a lot, you know. I think it's a

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Speaker 1: very intimate medium. I think for me, there's something about

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Speaker 1: hearing people's voices, hearing hearing someone grappling with a new

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Speaker 1: concept for the first time, and hearing all the ums

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Speaker 1: and likes and you know, weird sounds that come with that.

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Speaker 1: I really really like that. Not everybody likes it. I

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Speaker 1: try to, I try to edit. Luckily, we have, as

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Speaker 1: you know, we have you know, a superstar products me

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Speaker 1: of Tari shout out to Tari, who's Nabe here in

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Speaker 1: the credits. Luckily we have a genius editor who makes

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Speaker 1: everybody on the show sound like they're just brilliant and

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Speaker 1: just like rolled out of bed brilliant and everything they

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Speaker 1: say comes out brilliant and perfect. But and I I

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Speaker 1: appreciate white people like that for me is the exact opposite, right.

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Speaker 1: I love the awkward pauses and the noise, the like

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Speaker 1: throat clearing, because I feel like those are the signals

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Speaker 1: that you're like hearing someone really have a have a

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Speaker 1: like real conversation. UM. I also think I like podcasts

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Speaker 1: a lot because I've been a fan of them for

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Speaker 1: a very long time. And I feel like when I

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Speaker 1: first fell in love with the medium, it was so

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Speaker 1: new and so different. Even when I was working as

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Speaker 1: a podcaster, you know, we didn't know what the funk

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Speaker 1: we were doing. It was like we were like a

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Speaker 1: ragtag group of people who really just were making it

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Speaker 1: up as we went along. I'll never forget sort of

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Speaker 1: like fibbing on my resume about knowing how to edit

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Speaker 1: audio and then being like, oh fuck, they're gonna expect

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Speaker 1: me to know how to do this, and having to

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Speaker 1: learn to do it. There was something about the there

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Speaker 1: was something about the pot has a landscape when I

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Speaker 1: first got involved in it back and like you know,

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Speaker 1: the two thousands or early two thousands, Um, that was

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Speaker 1: just it just felt like the wild West, and it

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Speaker 1: just felt like you were hearing conversations that you would

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Speaker 1: never hear any place else. Um. And even though that's changed,

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Speaker 1: you know, as the medium has gotten more slick and

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Speaker 1: more professionalized. Um, I still I still feel like I

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Speaker 1: still feel that, you know, I think at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, it will always be a medium for weirdos,

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Speaker 1: and I think of myself as a weirdo, So it

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Speaker 1: feels like home. Yeah, your interviews, you do a good

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Speaker 1: job connecting with people and getting them to not just

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Speaker 1: and talk about it. Um, how how do you approach that?

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Speaker 1: You know, the episodes, the interviews that you've done for

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Speaker 1: this season, what's your strate Well, first and foremost, as women,

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Speaker 1: as people of color, as people who are marginalized, we

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Speaker 1: don't often it's not a given that someone's going to

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Speaker 1: thoughtfully deal with our stories, right, And so if someone

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Speaker 1: or for an interview, the first thing that's most important

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Speaker 1: to me is making sure that I treat their story

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Speaker 1: with care and intention, because unfortunately we can't always. That's

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Speaker 1: not always a given that that someone that we're talking

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Speaker 1: of care. And I take it very seriously. I take

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Speaker 1: it very seriously. You know, it is someone listening to

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Speaker 1: someone tell their story. For me is a real privilege.

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Speaker 1: And the fact that people trust me to put their

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Speaker 1: stories into the world to new audiences, to like package

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Speaker 1: the ideas that they're that they're that they're spitting and

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Speaker 1: the you know, the things that they're saying that package

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Speaker 1: them are folks to consume. That's a lot of trust

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Speaker 1: that it's I don't I don't take it. I take

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Speaker 1: it very serious. It's a lot of trust. So really

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Speaker 1: it's about um, it's about that. I think. I've also

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Speaker 1: been very lucky that all the people on the show

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Speaker 1: so far, all the guests we've had this season, are

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Speaker 1: brilliant and so interesting and just have such an interesting perspective,

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Speaker 1: and they introduced me to new concepts that I didn't know.

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Speaker 1: They helped me understand myself better, and so I'm very

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Speaker 1: lucky that everybody is so smartest it's hard to not

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Speaker 1: make people sound interesting and smart when they are legitimately

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Speaker 1: interesting and smart. Treating people stories with respect and care

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Speaker 1: and listening to them. It reminds me of something Claire

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Speaker 1: about a culture of care and if you want to

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Speaker 1: look for a place on the internet where there's care,

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Speaker 1: look where women are or something. Yeah, she says you

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Speaker 1: should look for for the women. And I think that's true, right,

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Speaker 1: I think, no offense to the men out there listening.

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Speaker 1: But the stories that I love the most are the

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Speaker 1: ones that are told by marginalized people because I can

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Speaker 1: just tell that they're told of one perspective where you

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Speaker 1: aren't sure if you're going to get that care, the

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Speaker 1: kind of care that Claire Evans talks about in our

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Speaker 1: our first episode, and so people who share their stories

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Speaker 1: even when they're not so sure how the reception is

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Speaker 1: going to be. I see such a bravery in that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of a common theme across a bunch

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Speaker 1: of the episodes this season. Oh, definitely the people that

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Speaker 1: we've talked to this season, you know, people like Ottawa Emboia,

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Speaker 1: who in our second episode spoke up when she was

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Speaker 1: that takes bravery, and that kind of takes knowing that

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Speaker 1: people are going to, you know, hate you for speaking

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Speaker 1: up speaking your truth. People are going to malign you.

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Speaker 1: You know, you don't even know if you like are

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Speaker 1: physically safe, you know, let alone, people are going to

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Speaker 1: be mean to you on the internet or whatever. Her

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Speaker 1: physical safety, she was taking great risks. And yet you know,

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Speaker 1: as grateful as we all are for rod to ronan

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Speaker 1: Pharaoh for bringing that story to light, I don't like

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Speaker 1: the fact that he wasn't risking anything to do that,

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Speaker 1: any kind of comfort, and that he is the one

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Speaker 1: that's remembered as sort of like breaking that story as

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Speaker 1: opposed to Ottawa, who was making was taking great risks,

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Speaker 1: great personal risks, Um, and did it first. So I

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Speaker 1: just want to I think it really is for me

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Speaker 1: about about culture shift, about just remembering that there for

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Speaker 1: every big story you hear, there's probably someone who who's

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Speaker 1: part in that is going overlooked or unheard, and we

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Speaker 1: should hear them. What's something that you think we're not

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Speaker 1: talking about enough today? Oh, I'm so glad you asked.

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Speaker 1: I have a I have a very clear answer. Um.

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Speaker 1: We are recording this right after Biden named his running

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Speaker 1: mate Harris, and I would say, especially in light of that,

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Speaker 1: but also just in general, even before that, we need

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Speaker 1: to be talking about disinformation on online and how it

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Speaker 1: impacts marginalized communities. We did a whole episode about Shafika Hudson,

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Speaker 1: how she tried to blow the whistle on bad actors,

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Speaker 1: you know, using classic disinformation tactics to so chaos online. Um,

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Speaker 1: a Senate inquiry now confirms that those kinds of bad

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Speaker 1: actors from you know, Russia, we're trying to do the

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Speaker 1: same thing to influence the election. Uh, we see it

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Speaker 1: in Latin next communities. You know, we already know that

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Speaker 1: with when black women running for public office, they deal

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Speaker 1: with a disproportionate amount of disinformation and harassment online. And

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Speaker 1: I think that because we don't really talk about race,

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Speaker 1: we don't really talk about the internet or technology in

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Speaker 1: a in a way that centers marginalized voices, it's just

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Speaker 1: going overlooked. And you know, one of the reasons why

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Speaker 1: the show was called there Are No Girls on the

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Speaker 1: Internet is the kind of I mean, it's sort of

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Speaker 1: an inside joke with myself a little bit to like,

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Speaker 1: I'm the only person who likes is cracking up about it.

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Speaker 1: But the phrase there are no Girls on the Internet

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Speaker 1: has a lot of different meanings. But one of the

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Speaker 1: meetings that it has is this idea that you know,

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Speaker 1: on the internet, there is no such thing as gender.

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Speaker 1: Everybody everybody, everybody's genderless, and it would be great if

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Speaker 1: that was true, but it's not true. Right. It's the

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Speaker 1: same thing people try to say that, like people are

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Speaker 1: color blind. It would be great if that was true,

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Speaker 1: but it's not true. And when we obscure the ways

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Speaker 1: that our identities show up online or we're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's no such thing as identity on the internet, we're

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Speaker 1: all the same we that just erases what we know

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Speaker 1: is what you already know is true, that that people's

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Speaker 1: identities make their online experience different. And I think that

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Speaker 1: because we don't talk about we're not comfortable talking about race,

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Speaker 1: we're not coffertable talking about gender, sometimes we are allowing

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Speaker 1: for these very these very targeted attacks on marginalized groups

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Speaker 1: online to just go sort of like unscrutinized. And we

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Speaker 1: should be talking about the role that people's identities, race, gender,

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Speaker 1: all of that, haven't. That's what we're just really not.

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Speaker 1: Within hours of Kamala Harris being declared the VP, there

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Speaker 1: are you know, attacks that were race based about her

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Speaker 1: character as a woman, and like, you know, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: they had of sock pile of heckles to release against

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Speaker 1: whoever the nominee was. But the fact that she was,

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Speaker 1: you know, uh, not just black and not just a woman,

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Speaker 1: build a black woman, there's so many more opportunity for

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Speaker 1: them to use those sort of uh, stereotype based attacks. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: she's a black woman, she is the child of immigrants.

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Speaker 1: You know, there are so many aspects of her identity

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Speaker 1: that people are going that we already know, you know,

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Speaker 1: people study this, we already know we're going to be

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Speaker 1: used disproportionately to attack her online. Yeah, and so Biden

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Speaker 1: isn't getting the same level of attacks. Trump is getting

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Speaker 1: the same level of attacks, and so we need to

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Speaker 1: be talking about what that means. Um. In my in

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Speaker 1: one of my day jobs, aside from hosting this podcast,

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Speaker 1: it I'm a I work for a women's group called

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Speaker 1: Ultra Violet, where I lead up our work in the

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Speaker 1: disinformation space. And you know, I think, in absence of

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Speaker 1: the leadership of tech companies and tech platforms to take

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Speaker 1: this seriously, it's really up to just everyday folks like

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Speaker 1: me too create resources and create tools to make sure

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about this kind of misinformation and disinformation

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Speaker 1: and that we can curb it. Because we can't wait

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Speaker 1: for these tech leaders to do the right thing. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna have to step up and and do it ourselves.

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Speaker 1: It's a serious thing. It's a serious thing. Well, thanks

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Speaker 1: for doing that work, and thanks for making the show,

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Speaker 1: and let me be part of it and help amplify

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Speaker 1: these stories. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech?

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Speaker 1: I just want to say hi. You can be just

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Speaker 1: at hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find

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Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are

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Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Brigittad.

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Speaker 1: It's a production of My Heart Radio and Unboss creative

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tara Harrison is our

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Speaker 1: producer and sound engineer. Michaelmato is our contributing producer. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host, Bridget Dodd. If you want to help us grow,

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Speaker 1: rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts

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Speaker 1: from iHeart Radio, check out the I heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.