1 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: You think, doctor Wickman, that you have spent more time 2 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: looking for his head than anyone in history. 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 2: I would be willing to bet you that's the case. 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: Oh, you did it like a pro. This is not 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: a hobby. 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 2: Oh No. 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: In this episode, we're talking about the tragic death of 8 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: the Seminole War leader Osceola and the bizarre and gruesome 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: treatment of his corpse after his death. Doctor Patricia Wickman 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: will masterfully tell the story and the details of her 11 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: personal search for Osiola's head. Our first episode in this 12 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: series was about Osiola's childhood, the second one was about 13 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: his years in the Seminole Wars, and this one is 14 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: about his death, though he still lives vividly in the 15 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: American consciousness, and that's really what I'm interested in, trying 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: to under stand. Why why are we still talking about 17 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: this guy? And for the record, I do not take 18 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: lightly talking about a man's death, no matter how long 19 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: ago it was. My intent is not to sensationalize this story, 20 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: but rather just understand it the best I can, and 21 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: to learn about Ostiola and really maybe learn something about ourselves. 22 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 1: I really doubt that you're going to want to miss 23 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: this one. 24 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 3: From there, most of the people, and there were two 25 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 3: hundred and thirty seven Indians who had been gathered at 26 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 3: Saint Augustine. From there they were to be taken straight 27 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 3: to Indian Territory in the West. They would be put 28 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 3: on ships, but Ostiola would never leave Fort Moultrie. 29 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: My name is Klay Nukem and this is the Bear 30 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search 31 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the 32 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: story of Americans who lived their lives close to the land. 33 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: Presented by FHF gear, American made purpose built hunting and 34 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the place. 35 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: As we explore, The Seminole War roared from eighteen seventeen 36 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: to eighteen fifty eight. That's over forty years. The US 37 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: government was trying to remove all Indians from the newly 38 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: acquired Florida territory. This would be America's most expensive Indian War, 39 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: costing over fifty million dollars, with over two thousand American 40 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: soldiers losing their lives. And remember to start, there were 41 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: only four to five thousand Seminoles in Florida by eighteen 42 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: thirty nine, more than half of them had been relocated 43 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: to Oklahoma. So at most a couple thousand people staved 44 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: off the US army for almost two decades. That's some 45 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: serious resistance. And to jump into our story about Osceola, 46 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: we will start now in late October eighteen thirty seven, 47 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: and Ostiola has been captured dishonorably under a flag of 48 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: truce near Fort Peyton, seven miles south of Saint Augustine, Florida, 49 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: by US military General Thomas Jessop. Who'd pay for the 50 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: mistake of treacherously capturing Ostola the way he did with 51 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: the scrutiny and ire of the American public, who phariseically 52 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: rooted for the Seminole leader in this David versus Goliath 53 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: battle against the United States. Osceola was the face of 54 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: the resistance, a cunning military strategist and assassin known as 55 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: a master of guerrilla warfare in the swamps. To fail 56 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: meant certain death or being exiled to Indian Territory in Oklahoma, 57 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: over one thousand miles to the west. The year prior, 58 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: in eighteen thirty six, the first Seminoles were forcibly removed 59 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: from Florida to Oklahoma under the legislative power of Andrew 60 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: Jackson's Indian Removal Act of eighteen thirty, which erased all 61 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: the previous treaties and erased the reservation that they had 62 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: made for the Seminoles in Florida. The world of all 63 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: the tribes in the East was crumbling. Doctor Patricia Whickman 64 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: of Tallahassee, Florida will now catch us up. Right after 65 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: the capture of Ostiola, you guys remember, but she was 66 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: the state historian of Florida. She lived and worked on 67 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: a Seminole reservation in Florida from many years. Though she 68 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: is not a Seminole, she loves them dearly and is 69 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: an expert on their recorded history. I can't say enough 70 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: about this lady. Here we go. 71 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 3: We are seven miles south of Saint Augustine at a 72 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 3: tiny little stockade called Fort Payton, and now they're prisoners. 73 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 3: The Indians are prisoners, and they're being marched all seven 74 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 3: miles up to Saint Augustine to be put inside the 75 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 3: Custigo Fort Marion in Saint Augustine. And while they are there, 76 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 3: they're going to be held there. This is late, almost 77 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 3: the end of October. They're going to be held there 78 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 3: in November and in December, and while they're there, several 79 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 3: things happen. There is a post surgeon who's attached to 80 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 3: the army, and he's a local doctor, and his name 81 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 3: is Frederic Whedon. And Frederick Whedon gets to know Osceola. 82 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 3: I certainly couldn't say they become friends, but they become friendly, 83 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 3: all right. And doctor Whedon and his wife, Mary Wheden 84 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 3: go over to the fort frequently and take gifts of 85 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 3: food to Assiola. 86 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 1: Doctor Frederick Wheden is the name that you'll remember, because 87 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: I promise you he's going to be living rent free 88 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: in your head. His father fought in the American Revolution, 89 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: and doctor Whedon himself fought in the War of eighteen twelve. 90 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: He became a contract surgeon for the US military after 91 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: his time as an enlisted man. Later we'll discuss if 92 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: he was a man of science or a villain. 93 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 3: In the meantime, the Indians are in very sad circumstances. 94 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 3: There are people from the town who are going in 95 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 3: to see them. They want to see the Indians. Unfortunately, 96 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 3: they begin to have problems with measles and it kills 97 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 3: well thirteen fourteen people. Ociola does not get it. He 98 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 3: doesn't seem to be bothered by measles. But I'm going 99 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 3: to find out later on that he is bothered by 100 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 3: one other thing, which is a very serious problem, and 101 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 3: that is lice, all right. And lice, I have learned, 102 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 3: do not occur if you're living in the open, in 103 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 3: the wild. They occur when you're in close confined quarters 104 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 3: with other unsanitary people, in unsanitary concisions as a prisoner 105 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 3: inside a fort. And so Aciola knows that he's defeated, 106 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 3: and he does not want to go to the West, 107 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 3: and he says several times that he knows that that 108 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 3: Charlie Imotola's people are already out there, they've already been 109 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 3: sent to the West, and they'll have the right to 110 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 3: take revenge on him. 111 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: This is the seminole that he killed, Yes, absolutely, for 112 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: wanting to go out there to emigrate, right, And that's 113 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: the trajectory, like when he gets capped. Sure, the trajectory 114 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: is Oklahoma. 115 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: Oh, yes, absolutely. 116 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: Conditions in the Florida prison in eighteen thirty seven were rough. 117 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: Ocola feared the retribution of members of his own tribe. 118 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: He'd killed a seminole leader because that guy had planned 119 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: to go and take some people to Oklahoma. He was 120 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: burning bridges Osiola was he didn't have a backup plan 121 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: and he had no plans to go to Oklahoma. 122 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 3: So he knows that there are people who are talking 123 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 3: about escaping, and indeed, while they are there, there is 124 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 3: an escape. And the soldiers themselves report that people from 125 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 3: the among the Indians had been allowed to go outside 126 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 3: the fort for four days in order to gather medicine 127 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 3: or to gather plants. That they're very specific plants that 128 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 3: these Indians are going after, and the plants are what 129 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 3: they needed to make medicine, because there is a story 130 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 3: that circulated among the Indians that they told that they 131 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 3: made medicine inside the fort and they watched the ants, 132 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: and the ants were curling in and out through a 133 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 3: crack in a wall that was thirteen feet thick at 134 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 3: the base, and they made themselves with this medicine. They 135 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 3: made themselves small enough to go out through the crack 136 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 3: in the wall. Another story that they tell is that 137 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 3: they made medicine to make the water standing in puddles 138 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 3: in the quadrangle rise up as steam, and it made 139 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 3: it impossible for the soldiers who were guarding the Sallyport 140 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 3: to see them, and they just literally marched right by 141 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 3: them and ride out the Sallyport. 142 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by stories of supernatural activity. I'm not suggesting 143 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: that I believe the Indians shrunk to the size of 144 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: ants and crawled through the crack in the wall, or 145 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: that they had power over the fog, but I can't 146 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: say for sure that they didn't. You know, there's a 147 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,359 Speaker 1: supernatural prison break story in the Bible where an earthquake 148 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: shook loose the doors of the prison where Paul was stayed. 149 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: As I understand it, belief in the supernatural is the 150 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: key to unlocking any potential of its power. Point being 151 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: your bias will be confirmed. If you believe in the supernatural, 152 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: there's a high probability that you'll see it. If you don't, 153 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: there's a high probability that you never will. It's like 154 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: a self fulfilling prophecy. Most of humanity that has lived 155 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: on planet Earth has had a more robust interaction with 156 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: the spirit world than today's average American. For me to 157 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: think that I fully understand all the power, structures and 158 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: laws of the universe with my eyes and my rational 159 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: thought is absurd. Science has a lot of great answers. 160 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: I am a man of science, but science does not 161 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:06,599 Speaker 1: answer all the questions that we have. But sometimes supernatural 162 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: acts play out before us inside the predictable laws of physics. 163 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 3: Now, my personal feeling, after I've read all of this, 164 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 3: I read the US Army report. On this military report, 165 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 3: my feeling is that the soldiers who were on guard 166 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 3: duty that night, and there really should have been only 167 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 3: two or three. I believe that those soldiers were either 168 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 3: drunk or asleep, or they were partisans who felt sorry 169 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 3: for the Indians, and I think they let them walk out. 170 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 3: Captain Pittkiren Morrison was in charge of the guard of 171 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,239 Speaker 3: the Indians at the fort, and he made a decision 172 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 3: that in order to put them in a more healthy place, 173 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 3: he said, more healthy place, and in order to put 174 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 3: them someplace where it would be harder for them to escape, 175 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 3: he determined and got permission to take them from Saint Augustine, Florida, 176 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 3: to Charleston. And Charleston Harbor has Fort Moultrie sitting out 177 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 3: in the harbor, and as a consequence, they set out 178 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 3: on the steamer point set and on January first, eighteen 179 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 3: thirty eight, they hit land at Fort Moultrie in Charleston Harbor. 180 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 3: From there most of the people and there were two 181 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 3: hundred and thirty seven Indians who had been gathered at 182 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 3: Saint Augustine. From there they were to be taken straight 183 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 3: to Indian Territory in the West. They would be put 184 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 3: on ships, but Osciola would never leave Fort Moultrie. 185 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: And the other two hundred and thirty six seminoles settled 186 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: into prison life in South Carolina while waiting to be 187 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 1: shipped to Oklahoma. The next story is one of the 188 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: most bizarre things that you'll hear in this series. When 189 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 1: I read it, I reread it to confirm what I 190 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: thought that understood. It has to do with what the 191 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 1: generals at Fort Moultrie allowed the prisoners to do while incarcerated. 192 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 3: There was a play while the Indians were held prisoners 193 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 3: in Fort Moultrie in eighteen thirty eight. They were taken 194 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 3: one night to the Dock Street Theater to watch a play. 195 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 3: And there was a big deal made out of that, 196 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 3: and the whole town turned out. 197 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: A lot of the town turned out. 198 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: It sounded like normal prison, does it no? Her incarceration, 199 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: Oh no, It took them to a play. That's downtown Charleston. 200 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: That's for Oscola into. 201 00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 2: A play everybody wanted. 202 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 1: Think it was January sixth I read it just today 203 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: January sixth, eighteen thirty eight. 204 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 2: Eighteen thirty eight, that's absolutely right. 205 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: Weeks before he died. 206 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 3: I went to New York to the Theater Arts Archive 207 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 3: at Lincoln Center in New York and found a copy 208 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 3: of the play and. 209 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 2: At any Moon the Honeymoon. 210 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 3: They wouldn't allow me to copy it, but I sat 211 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 3: there and copied the whole thing out, the whole play 212 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 3: out all right. And I found a theater company in 213 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 3: Charleston that was willing to put on the play, to 214 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 3: do a reading of it for us, And I took 215 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 3: the Indians, the Seminoles to the dock Street Theater and 216 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 3: we had a reading. 217 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: Of the Honeymoon. 218 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: Wow. 219 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: I am a. 220 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 3: Florist there very close to Fort Moultrie sent over buckets 221 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 3: of white carnations for. 222 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 2: The Seminoles as a gift to them, which I thought 223 00:14:58,720 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 2: was a very sweet thing to do. 224 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: That is hard to understand. It said that the people 225 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: in the audience gave Ostiola a standing ovation when he 226 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: walked into the play. Isn't that wild? And hey, I've 227 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: told you before that doctor Patricia Whitman is next level 228 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: when it comes to her devotion and expertise to her 229 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: area of focus. But I got to say, I have 230 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: never met anyone with any more passion, knowledge and the 231 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: ability to articulate her area of studying more than her. 232 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: Here is another interesting thing that happened while Ostiola was 233 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: in prison. 234 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 3: He became sicker, and at the same time he was 235 00:15:55,240 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 3: besieged by artists who wanted to take his likeness. The 236 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 3: US government contracted with George Catlan, who was the famous 237 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 3: Indian painter, very famous, and sent him down to Fort Moultrie. 238 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 3: And Robert John Curtis, who was a Charleston artist, were 239 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 3: the two that I'm sure of who were there. And 240 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 3: they set up in one of the casemates at either 241 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 3: end of the room, and Osiola was between them, and 242 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 3: he dressed himself properly. He dressed as a full warrior 243 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 3: with all his regalia, and he had some effect effectations 244 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 3: that were different than all the other Indians. For instance, 245 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 3: the black and white Ostrich plumes that he wore in 246 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 3: his turban. Everybody else wore one or two on the front. 247 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 3: He wore four or five on the back. He had 248 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 3: a silver concho. He had a silver pen. He had 249 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 3: a silver mirror, a silver looking glass. 250 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: If you remember our series on Daniel un starting at 251 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: episode fourteen, and our episode series on David Crockett starting 252 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: at episode one ten, you'll remember that I'm always intrigued 253 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: by what the portrait painters said about people. Before photography, 254 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: this was the medium of the day that translated the 255 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: character in essence of a human to the world. In 256 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: these portrait sessions, people would sit for hours with these artists. 257 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: Catlin wrote about his time with Osceola, I want to 258 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: read what he said. Commonly called Powell, he is generally 259 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: supposed to be a half breed, the son of a 260 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: white man and a Creek woman. I have painted him 261 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: precisely in the costume in which he stood for his picture, 262 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: even to a string and a trinket. He wore three 263 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: ostrich feathers in his head and a turban made of 264 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: a very colored cotton shawl, and his dress was chiefly 265 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: of calicos, with a handsome beadsat or belt around his 266 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: waist and his rifle in his hand. This young man 267 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: is no doubt an extraordinary character. He has been for 268 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: some years reputed and doubtlessly looked upon by the Seminoles 269 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: as the master's spirit and leader of the tribe. Although 270 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: he is not a chief in stature, he is about 271 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: at mediocrity, with an elastic and graceful movement in his face. 272 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: He is good looking, with rather an effeminate smile, but 273 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: of so peculiar a character that the world may be 274 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: ransacked over without finding another just like it. In his manners, 275 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: and all his movements in company is polite and gentlemanly, 276 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: though all his conversation is entirely in his own tongue, 277 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 1: and his general appearance and actions those of a full 278 00:18:54,000 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 1: blooded wild Indian. End of quote. We haven't mentioned it, 279 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: but Ostiola didn't speak much English. Some say that he 280 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: spoke some, some said that he spoke none, But we 281 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 1: don't really know. I don't know what it is, but 282 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: these descriptions by these painters always seemed to get to me. 283 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: With Boone and Ostiola. Their portrait painters were some of 284 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: the last ones to see these guys. Boone died in 285 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: obscurity in Zuri, just months after the only portrait of 286 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: him was ever painted. No Catlan was just one of 287 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: many many artists who flocked to Fort Moultrie to paint Ostiola. 288 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: The war leader, would only live three days after this 289 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: painting was complete. To be noted, if someone comes to 290 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: paint your portrait, you better be ready to meet your maker. 291 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 3: And so he sat there for them in the heat, 292 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 3: and then walked out into the cold, and then back 293 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 3: into the heat, and does a consequence, he contracted what 294 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 3: I think was called quinsy, and today we would call 295 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 3: it strep throat. And one of the Indians who was 296 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 3: with them, who was a medicine man, or as the 297 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 3: whites called him, a prophet, told him that he must 298 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 3: have nothing to do with white medicine, that they would 299 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,959 Speaker 3: kill him, that this was white man's medicine. And he 300 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 3: even said at one point Dr Whedon that he would 301 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 3: have let doctor Whedon attend him because he liked him. 302 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 3: But he knew that he couldn't afford to get the 303 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 3: ill will of all the other Indians if they saw 304 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 3: him letting a white doctor attend to him. And so 305 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 3: at the end of January eighteen thirty eight, he was 306 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 3: very very ill. At night the doctor went to see him. 307 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: Doctor brus This is just days after Catlin finished his 308 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: very famous painting, the Bassola. I think Catlin finished on 309 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: like January twenty sixth or twenty seventh. 310 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 3: It was only four or five days, yes, And Robert 311 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 3: John Curtis, who's also has a very famous portrait that 312 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 3: I used on the front of my book, all right. 313 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 3: And he became much much worse Aciola did. And so 314 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 3: the doctor went into him at six o'clock in the 315 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 3: morning and found him almost totally unable to speak. He 316 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 3: couldn't eat. Both of his wives were there with him, 317 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 3: one on either side, and one of them had his 318 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 3: head laying. 319 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 2: In her lap. 320 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,479 Speaker 3: Slightly after six am, after the second time the doctor 321 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 3: attended him, Osciola died in Fort Moultrie in Charleston Harbor. 322 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: At precisely six point twenty on January thirtieth, eighteen thirty eight, 323 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: the Seminole War leader Osceola died. Death is such an interesting, 324 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: sacred and bleak moment in a person's life. Riches nor 325 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: poverty can separate you from its sting. We do not 326 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: know what lies on the other side of death, but 327 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: we know there's something. I know there's something. Archaeological evidence 328 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: of human burial rituals show us that man has always 329 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 1: struggled with death, and the mysterious exit of the human spirit, 330 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: leaving behind an empty cadaver like a locust shedding its exoskeleton, 331 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: makes it clear that what was there a human is 332 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: no longer there. But in the case of this story, 333 00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: Ostiola's death is really just the beginning of the whole news. 334 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 3: Now it would be almost twelve hours before he would 335 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 3: be buried, and he is buried at Fort Moultrie. That 336 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 3: decision was made, but there are several things that had 337 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 3: to happen during that time. In the first place, there 338 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 3: was only a very small skeleton staff of soldiers stationed 339 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 3: at Fort Moultrie at that moment. Then one of them 340 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 3: had to be sent across the bay to find a 341 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 3: carpenter in Charleston, so they had to get the coffin 342 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,719 Speaker 3: and take it back. Doctor Wheden also put out a 343 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 3: call for doctor Staro, who was a teacher of anatomy 344 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 3: in Charleston, and between them they were able to take 345 00:23:54,440 --> 00:24:00,360 Speaker 3: a plaster cast of Osceola's face and torso. In order 346 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 3: to do that, they had to remove his clothes and 347 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 3: rigor was still setting was setting. 348 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: In called the death mask. 349 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to. 350 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,959 Speaker 3: Show you his death mask in a minute, because I 351 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 3: have it. I have one, I'll show you. 352 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: Wait a minute. You have a replica of the death 353 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: mask of Osceola in your office? Yes, she does, Doctor 354 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 1: Wickman would later take me there to see it. It's 355 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: a white plaster cast of the chest, shoulders and face 356 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: of the Seminole War leader. The features look strikingly similar 357 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: to Catlan's painting, with cheekbones, smooth and almost feminine. I 358 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: chose not to record any audio of our conversation while 359 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: looking at it, or taking any photos. As fascinating as 360 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: this is, it just didn't feel right to record it, 361 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: so I didn't. But I'll never forget it. The original 362 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: death masks is now at the Smithsonian. We're leading up 363 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: to the hours before his burial at Fort Moultrie. 364 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 3: And then at the last second, or very nearly the 365 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 3: last second, Captain Morrison sent to them and said that 366 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 3: he wanted all of Osiola's possessions to be taken from 367 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 3: him and delivered to Captain Morrison. And this is the 368 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 3: moment at which doctor Whedon decided to take the most 369 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 3: important specimen that he could possibly take from this famous 370 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 3: or notorious Indian, depending on what your point of view 371 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 3: about him was he decided to take his head. 372 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: Remember when I told you doctor Whedon's name would be 373 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: living in your head rent free for a while. This 374 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: is why, without permission, hastily done in secret, before they 375 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: nailed the lid on the pine coffin, doctor Whedon amputated 376 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,719 Speaker 1: Ostiola's head. And we're still trying to understand why. 377 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 3: This was not a new idea. As a matter of fact, 378 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 3: there was a pseudo science that was prevalent in the 379 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 3: late eighteenth century and the mid nineteenth century called phrenology, 380 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 3: and it was a pseudo science that believed that by 381 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 3: studying the bumps on a person's head, you could tell 382 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 3: what their propensities were. You could tell if they were 383 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 3: criminals or violent, or romantic, or anything else about them. 384 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 3: And there were books written about this, showing you how 385 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 3: to look at ahead, all right, And we know that 386 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,959 Speaker 3: in at least one and possibly two other instances in 387 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 3: Florida there were officers who had taken heads. So this 388 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 3: was not new, and there were a lot of people 389 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 3: who when word finally got out, and it took a 390 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 3: while to get out on the United States, when they 391 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 3: found out that doctor Whedon had taken his head. They 392 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 3: were very unhappy about it. They thought that it was 393 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 3: a desecration. The Indians had to be kept out and 394 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 3: kept away from the whole entire thing, because they never 395 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 3: never would have allowed that. Never, they wouldn't even have 396 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 3: allowed his clothing to be taken off, because it was 397 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 3: important in their tradition that a warrior should be buried 398 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 3: with all of his accouterments, everything that was his should 399 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 3: go with him. 400 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: Doctor Whedon would take his head, and he and General 401 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: Morrison would split up the material things that Osciola had 402 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: when he died. Remember he was a prisoner, so his 403 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: wives wouldn't have had any say over how things went down. 404 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: Doctor Whedon took Osceola's car being, his powder horn, a 405 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: lock of his hair, a sketch that he had, a 406 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: brass pipe, silver concho, earrings, a garter, and a knife. 407 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: These things would be passed down in Weedon's family for 408 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: many many years. General Morrison took the three ostrich plumes, 409 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: a turban, a silk shawl, two belts, a garter, three 410 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: silver gorgets, and a mirrored hairbrush. Most of these things 411 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,880 Speaker 1: have disappeared, a few are still in existence, including a 412 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: braid or a lock of Osiola's hair that's still in existence. 413 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: And you may remember doctor Wickman talking about lice in 414 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: that Florida prison. Will modern analysis on that lock of 415 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: hair revealed evidence of the larval casings of lice on 416 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: it pretty wild. Now we've got to have some discussion 417 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: about doctor Whedon whereas actions nefarious, which it kind of 418 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: seems like they were, or is there somehow an odd 419 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: loophole in Weeden's notes He wrote that Ostiola before he died, 420 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: said that he wanted his bones to go back to Florida. 421 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 2: Yes he did, Yes he did. 422 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: And it's an interesting scenario because Weeden this guy that 423 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: would end up decapitating him, taking all his stuff, Ostiola's 424 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: personal belongings, and would you know, be this like dishonest 425 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: guy would be the one that would would be writing 426 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: basically Ostiola's last will and testament. 427 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 3: See and I find it absolutely fascinating that we can 428 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 3: see both of these sides of the mind of a 429 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 3: nineteenth century person. And on the one hand, we've got 430 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 3: all of Ostiola's fame, we've got all of his notoriety, 431 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 3: We've got thousands of people across the United States who 432 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 3: were sure that this noble Savage had been carried to 433 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 3: the grave headless when they found out because of an 434 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 3: act of treachery, because Jessup had taken him under a 435 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 3: white flag of truce. And at the same time, we've 436 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 3: got doctor Frederick Whedon, a man of science and a 437 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 3: man who was friendly friendly with Osceola, and he does 438 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 3: something that most of these people who are honoring Ostiola 439 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 3: think is a total desecration. Doctor Wheden wrote he wrote 440 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 3: a defense of this a few years later, about five 441 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 3: years later, when the head was transferred out of his keeping, 442 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 3: and he said that a man of science could do 443 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 3: these things, that there was no desecration here, that he 444 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 3: was doing this for science. 445 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: You don't think he had I mean, because it's really 446 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: easy to be like, well, here's a bad guy. He No, 447 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: he did this thing. You don't think he thought this 448 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: was bad? No, So you don't think Wheden was a 449 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: bad guy. No. Didn't he lie about it? Though? 450 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 3: Well it's hard to tell, and I've tried to track 451 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 3: down a story on this and get something straight. There 452 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 3: is a possibility that instead of coming home with that head, 453 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 3: and we don't know how he preserved it. And this 454 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 3: is why when I go to New York. I go 455 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 3: to the McAllister School of Funeral Services and Embalming. Everybody 456 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 3: else gets to go to plays. 457 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: This is why. 458 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: That's why you're on the Barkers podcast. 459 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 3: All right, this is it's a possibility that when he left, 460 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 3: when Weeden left Fort Moultrie, that he went straight to 461 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 3: New York and exhibited the head at New York and like, 462 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 3: this was just this is science, this is science. 463 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: This is a great Native American leader. America is enamored 464 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: with Native leaders. 465 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 3: But he found out that not everybody agreed with that 466 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 3: idea of science as the motivating factor, because there was 467 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 3: big pushback. And he came back to Saint Augustine. He 468 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 3: owned a house on a street that is now called 469 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 3: Weedon Street in Saint Augustine, not far from the house 470 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 3: I grew up in, and he had an apothecary shop downstairs, 471 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 3: or what was being called a drug store now then, 472 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 3: and he put the head on display in the front 473 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 3: window of his drug store. 474 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,719 Speaker 1: That's well documented. Yeah, Now would there not have been 475 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: a question of ownership? I mean that's that's where you know, like. 476 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 3: You just sat with me all the way through this war, 477 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 3: and you actually think that the Indians get a say 478 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 3: in this. 479 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: Come on now, yeah, no, I see your point. Okay, 480 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: what about even amongst the US people? I mean, why 481 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: would this guy, Like if the whole world is enamored 482 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: with this guy, I get like, why would Weeden get 483 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: to keep it? 484 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 3: Well, Wheden was the one who took it, and I 485 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 3: think that Whedon took it very secretly. 486 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: Wouldn't that make it nefarious? Though? 487 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 3: Of course the action, the act of taking it and 488 00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:00,719 Speaker 3: hiding it wasn't nefarious, all right, But he gated that 489 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 3: by saying that it was an act of science. And 490 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 3: you know, they are an awful lot of scientists to 491 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 3: do an awful lot of things that the rest of 492 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 3: us don't like. 493 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,239 Speaker 1: This one twisted my mind into a pretzel trying to 494 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: defend the god that secretly cut off the head of Osceola. 495 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: But I would learn that wouldn't be the only head 496 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: that he cut off. He also preserved the skull of 497 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: the Seminole Uci Billy, who also fought in the Seminole Wars. 498 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: I'd like to read a section of an essay for you, 499 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: though written by Theta Purdue, published in the Florida Historic 500 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: Quarterly in nineteen ninety one. What she said really gives 501 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: some interesting context to this kind of bizarre activity. She writes, 502 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: The conviction that a native way of life could not 503 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: survive in North America may help explain why Weeden and 504 00:33:54,680 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: Morrison removed Ostiola's personal effects. These momentoes of savagery had 505 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: an antiquarian value because most people presumed that Native Americans 506 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: were about to vanish completely off the face of the earth. 507 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: Indians represented the past and a society that was beginning 508 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: to pay particular attention to the material cultures of ancient peoples. 509 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: Napoleon's armies had discovered countless treasure troves in Egypt, and 510 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: by the eighteen twenties, Jean Francois Champollion had deciphered the 511 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: Rosetta Stone, which unlocked the secrets of hieroglyphics. These events 512 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: almost certainly did not motivate Weeden and Morrison, but they 513 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: did contribute to the intellectual maliu that formed and shaped 514 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: scientific investigation and collection development. Weeden and Morrison may be 515 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: seen as representative of the same kind of interest in 516 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: material culture that led, in the eighteen forties to the 517 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: founding of the Smithsonian Institution. Where Osceola's death mask now rests. 518 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: Cosiola's possessions like those are the Pleistocene. The Egyptians and 519 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,959 Speaker 1: the Trojans belonged to history because savagery was passing from 520 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: the scene. End of quote. Now that's pretty bear greasy. 521 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 1: By that, I mean interesting. You have to wash your 522 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: hands with some bear grease lye soap to get that off. 523 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: But it's still hard to stomach what Whedon did, but 524 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: it does put it into context. However, I have a question, 525 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,760 Speaker 1: is this kind of gruesome stuff still going on today? 526 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: You know, that's a weird question. So cutting a dead 527 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: man's head off, Yes, in eighteen thirty eight and putting 528 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,720 Speaker 1: in a glass jar was not what that would be today. 529 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: It just wasn't as big a deal. It was more common. 530 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 3: Well, do you know, I've been to Walter Reed, I've 531 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,439 Speaker 3: been to see their pathological collections, and I know that 532 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 3: they're old. They're not to my not, they're not still 533 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 3: doing this because you can take photographs today, you know, 534 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 3: and you can do drawings today, or you can preserve 535 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 3: specimens today. There are wet and dry methods for preserving specimens. 536 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 1: So they're still doing this today. So that's what you're. 537 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 3: Saying, I'm not quite sure. I'm not quite sure, but 538 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 3: I know that up into the twentieth century, particularly in 539 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 3: times of war, doctors have the opportunity to deal with 540 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 3: things that they never get to deal with in times 541 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 3: of peace. And as a teaching collection, it's important. What 542 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 3: are you going to show people? How are you going 543 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 3: to teach doctors? If they don't have something they can 544 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 3: look at, something that's. 545 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 1: Amazing, maybe it's still happening, maybe more today than even then. 546 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,439 Speaker 1: I mean, because they're working on cadavers all the time. Yes, 547 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: I mean people that are donating their bodies to sciences. 548 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: And once there's consent, like once there's consent from a person, 549 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: you can do whatever you want with my body. After 550 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: I'm dead, then it's like everything's okay. 551 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 3: Yes, then you can take it. And I as I said, 552 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 3: I've been in the collections at Walter Reed and there 553 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 3: are things in jars that I would not like to 554 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 3: have to deal with every day. But if you're going 555 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 3: to be a surgeon or even a doctor, any medical doctor, 556 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 3: you've got to deal with these things their reality, and 557 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,280 Speaker 3: this is how you learn. You know, there's a famous 558 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 3: pair of men in England. I think they were called 559 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 3: Burke and Hare, if I remember correctly, who were finally 560 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:30,320 Speaker 3: caught in the early eighteen hundreds because they were digging 561 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 3: up cadavers to supply the medical schools. They were going around, 562 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,719 Speaker 3: they were going to hangings, you know, and catching bodies 563 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 3: because they were supplying medical schools, and they got paid, 564 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 3: they were earning their living this way. 565 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,919 Speaker 1: That's all pretty wild and not a justification, but it 566 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: does put the time into context, and if we're being honest, 567 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: revolutions in medicine and understanding of the human body that 568 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: we all benefit from today came from this era of 569 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 1: curiosity and learning, as macabre as it is. We'll now 570 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: move through a timeline of what we know about Osiola's head. 571 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 3: Osiola's head stade remained in the possession of doctor Whedon 572 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 3: in Saint Augustine for about five years. 573 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: Doctor Wheden would end up being the mayor of Saint 574 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: Augustine and after having the head on display for five years, 575 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: Weeden's son in law, doctor Daniel Whitehurst, would write a 576 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: letter to a very prominent figure in the scientific community. 577 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: Here's who the letter was written. 578 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 3: To, and the man's name was doctor Valentine Mott. Mott 579 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 3: a very famous name. There is still today a Mott 580 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 3: metal in science that's given out every year. There's Lucretia Mott, 581 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 3: who was one of the great suffragettes in American history. 582 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 3: There's Mott apple juice. And doctor Mott had two teaching collections. 583 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 3: He had a collection that he kept of specimens that 584 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 3: he kept in Manhattan, and he had specimens that he 585 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 3: kept specifically at his home. And he said quite clearly 586 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 3: that when doctor Whitehurst wrote to him and said that 587 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 3: he wanted to offer him Osciola's head, doctor Mott said 588 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 3: that it was too important and too well known, too 589 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 3: highly visible in society for him to place it in 590 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,720 Speaker 3: any public spot, and he would keep it in his home, 591 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 3: all right. 592 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 2: And so he did. 593 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: And this is documented in a letter as we have today, Yes, 594 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 1: that Whitehurst, Weeden's son in law writes a letter to 595 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,399 Speaker 1: this famous doctor Mott, doctor Mott up in New York 596 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: and says and offers him and like straight up says, 597 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: I'm going to give a deliver to you basically Ossiole's head, 598 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: all right. 599 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 3: As a sign of my esteem for everything you've taught me. 600 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: And you're somebody that'll take care of this, and you 601 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 1: should be the one that has this. Yep, this is 602 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: in the early eighteen forties or so. 603 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 3: It's about eighteen forty two, maybe between five. 604 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: Four or five years after Oscio's Yes, yes, what happens after. 605 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 3: That, Well, the head is transported and it goes to him, 606 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,919 Speaker 3: and it goes to doctor Valentine Mott. And years later, 607 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 3: several years later, several things happened all at once. There 608 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,280 Speaker 3: was a fire in the fourteenth Street Medical College. Doctor 609 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 3: Mott's wife passed away, and doctor Mott created for himself 610 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 3: a catalog of his entire collection, the collection that was 611 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,279 Speaker 3: in his home. The fire destroyed a good deal of 612 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 3: what was held in the Medical College in New York. 613 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 3: So it's a very good thing that the head was 614 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 3: not there, because I've seen a copy of the catalog 615 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 3: that he created and had printed of all the specimens 616 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 3: that were in his home, and the head of asceola undoubted, 617 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 3: it says in parentheses, undoubted is there After I found 618 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 3: that the next thing I went looking for was doctor 619 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 3: Ballentine Mott's will, and I found out that not only 620 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 3: was there a will, but as of course there should be, 621 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 3: there was an inventory that was taken of all his 622 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 3: possessions at the time of his death. I got a 623 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 3: copy of the will. I read the copy. He made 624 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 3: his son, Alexander Brown Mott his executor. But the inventory 625 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 3: was either misfiled or has disappeared. And as a consequence, 626 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,600 Speaker 3: I can't find what you might call the smoking gun. 627 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,719 Speaker 3: I can't find the piece of paper that would tell 628 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 3: me for a fact that that head at the time 629 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 3: of Valentine Mott's death was still in his home. I 630 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 3: have visited the New York Historical Society. I've visited the 631 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 3: New York Medical Society. They have a cast of doctor 632 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,720 Speaker 3: Valentine Mott's hand because he was such a famous surgeon. 633 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,799 Speaker 3: They have some of his instruments, they have other documents, 634 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 3: but they do not have Osciola's head. 635 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 1: So that's where the trail goes cold. That is where 636 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,799 Speaker 1: the trail, that's where the buck stops. Yes, But then 637 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 1: that's where a wholenother big can of worms opens up. 638 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 3: Because because there are too many possibilities, you know, I've 639 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:54,320 Speaker 3: contacted Philadelphia. I sent out letters to about one hundred 640 00:42:54,360 --> 00:43:00,360 Speaker 3: and fifty museums across the United States. Anything that had anything. 641 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 1: What kind of letter do you write, you say, hey, perchance, 642 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: do you have the head of Osceola? And have not 643 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: told anybody. 644 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 3: What The first thing I said was, I'm the senior 645 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,359 Speaker 3: historian for the state of Florida. And when you start 646 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 3: with that, they answer you okay, And I said, I'm 647 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 3: working on Ostiola. Is the story of Astola, and as 648 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,840 Speaker 3: you may well know, his head has never been located. 649 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 3: And I am interested to know whether you have or 650 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 3: ever have had anything relating to Ostiola in your collections, 651 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,359 Speaker 3: whether you have ever heard any stories relating to him 652 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:37,040 Speaker 3: or his head. 653 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,919 Speaker 1: Just doing the widest net possible anybody. I could ask 654 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 1: you think, doctor Wickman, that you have spent more time 655 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 1: looking for his head than anyone in history. 656 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 2: I would be willing to bet you that's the case. 657 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 1: Oh you did it like a pro. This is not 658 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 1: a hobby. Oh no, this was your job. 659 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 2: This was your But it's what the Seminoles want too. 660 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,360 Speaker 1: Really, they sent you on task to do that. 661 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 3: Well, they allowed me to put the money in my 662 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 3: budget to go to New York, to go to Chicago. 663 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 3: I've been to the Brooklyn Museum because Henry Abbot had 664 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 3: an Egyptiana collection, and I thought, well, it's possible. Henry 665 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,799 Speaker 3: Abbott was a doctor who knew Valentine Mott. Let's go 666 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:20,920 Speaker 3: find out if it could be. 667 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:22,959 Speaker 1: There, how would you have Would it have just been 668 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: like somebody saying, you know what, well, there's this one 669 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: specimen over here, we don't really know what to do 670 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 1: with it, and somehow you would look at it and 671 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: be like, that's it. I mean, like, what did you 672 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:33,360 Speaker 1: expect to find. 673 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,880 Speaker 3: There are two big possibilities, three big possibilities. One is 674 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 3: that somebody has it, but they don't want the world 675 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:47,160 Speaker 3: to know it because of the attitude about Indians today. 676 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 3: They wouldn't want the Indian tribe to be insulted. 677 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, it'd be pretty and they wanted material to be 678 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 1: haven't in your hands today. 679 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 3: They didn't want to fall into disrepute as an institution. 680 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,279 Speaker 3: And the other possibility is that they might have known 681 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 3: that they had it and destroyed it or inadvertently destroyed 682 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 3: it because they said, you know, this system, this series 683 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 3: of specimens is not actually within the mission of our museum, 684 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,960 Speaker 3: and I don't know anybody else who wants it. 685 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:19,919 Speaker 2: Let's just throw it on the pipe. 686 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: I wouldn't fess up to that today. 687 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,120 Speaker 3: Well, they might not even know that it'd been among 688 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 3: those things because they might not have the accession records. 689 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 1: And it's interesting. So there's actually when you really know 690 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,919 Speaker 1: the systems, you understand the way that things could actually happen, 691 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:34,920 Speaker 1: because I mean, in my mind it's like, well, how 692 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: could you lose somebody's head that's in the jar? But 693 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,480 Speaker 1: there's actually a lot of ways to lose. 694 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 2: The whole job of ways to lose it. 695 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely, do you do you think, after all your research, 696 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,160 Speaker 1: do you think it's still in existence? 697 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:46,680 Speaker 2: Yes? 698 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:47,279 Speaker 1: Do you? 699 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:47,879 Speaker 2: Yes? 700 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 1: Why? 701 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,759 Speaker 3: Because I can't find any reason not to believe it, 702 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 3: Because I can't find anything that's even vaguely close to 703 00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 3: it that would lead me to believe that it could 704 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 3: truly be gone. 705 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,399 Speaker 1: I am grinting ear to ear as we're having this conversation. 706 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: Mystery remains, and that's some serious gangster detective stuff, but 707 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 1: also some very serious stuff searching for Osiola's head. I 708 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,680 Speaker 1: told you guys that doctor Whitman was legit. I don't 709 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 1: know if you believe me, and she truly believes that 710 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,920 Speaker 1: the head is still in existence. 711 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 3: And one of the things that I did in that 712 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 3: process of searching through other museums was look closely for specimens, 713 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 3: wet specimens. 714 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 2: Because that's what it would be. 715 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 3: It would be preserved in alcohol, probably wet specimens that 716 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:52,880 Speaker 3: are older than Osiola's hit. Because I thought to myself, 717 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 3: is it possible that it might have simply deteriorated over 718 00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 3: the years and that there's nothing left? Or if I 719 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 3: found it, I couldn't possibly recognize it, And so I 720 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,239 Speaker 3: went looking for other collections. 721 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 2: And there are. 722 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,359 Speaker 3: Collections in Europe, and the Hunterian Museum, and for which 723 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 3: there is now a Hunterian in London, all right, have 724 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,239 Speaker 3: specimens that are far older than ossi Olda's head, that 725 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,840 Speaker 3: are still perfectly fine, that are well preserved. So could 726 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:26,520 Speaker 3: it be extant? 727 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 2: Yes? 728 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:32,520 Speaker 3: Is it extant? I can't find any reason to believe 729 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 3: that it's not. And I'm thinking of Harvard's collections. I'm 730 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,240 Speaker 3: thinking of Philadelphia. There are a couple of museums there 731 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:49,960 Speaker 3: that have had anatomical collections. The idea of anatomical specimen 732 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:55,520 Speaker 3: collections as a very big idea really only began to 733 00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 3: pick up speed during the American Civil War, and you can. 734 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:00,799 Speaker 1: Imagine that years before that. 735 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, So they weren't large collections. They were usually like 736 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,920 Speaker 3: doctor Mott's. They were in the possession either of a 737 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,279 Speaker 3: medical college where a man a certain person taught, or 738 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,080 Speaker 3: they were his own private teaching collection. 739 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:15,160 Speaker 2: All right. 740 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,719 Speaker 3: But once we got the American Civil War and so 741 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,240 Speaker 3: many people were dying, and there were so many bullet 742 00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:24,160 Speaker 3: wounds and so many you know, legs and amputated and 743 00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:28,880 Speaker 3: all these other things, then then collecting really got underway, 744 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 3: and then the pathological collections at Walter Reed were begun. 745 00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:34,279 Speaker 2: All right. 746 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:40,680 Speaker 3: So there are pathological collections that still exist in various places, 747 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,960 Speaker 3: and I haven't begun to cover all of them. 748 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,760 Speaker 1: Wow, when you're in the deep dark corners of the Internet, 749 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,400 Speaker 1: you'll find a lot of wild ideas of where Ostiola's 750 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:58,319 Speaker 1: head is today. So what are the wild theories? Because 751 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,360 Speaker 1: I know there's a lot of unfound the wild theories 752 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:02,920 Speaker 1: of where Osiolas is. 753 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,239 Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you too, in particular that I have 754 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:10,280 Speaker 3: never forgotten. One of them was a woman in Texas 755 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,640 Speaker 3: who called me, and I no longer remember her name, mercifully, 756 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 3: and she called me this is while. 757 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:17,440 Speaker 2: I was still with the tribe. 758 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:22,840 Speaker 3: She was absolutely sure she lived near a river in Texas, 759 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 3: and she was convinced very strongly convinced that Osceola had 760 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,640 Speaker 3: lived in a house on that river bank and the 761 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:37,120 Speaker 3: house had collapsed on him and fallen into the river. 762 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,319 Speaker 3: And if I would send a dive team over to 763 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:45,359 Speaker 3: where she was, they could go into that river, and 764 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,200 Speaker 3: she was quite sure that we would find him. 765 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,719 Speaker 2: We would find his skeletal. 766 00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,640 Speaker 1: Remains pretty off the wall. That was a good one, 767 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,799 Speaker 1: you guys may remember Semonole Creek. Jake Tiger from Oklahoma. 768 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:00,920 Speaker 1: I asked him if he'd heard any loud stories of 769 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:02,440 Speaker 1: where Osciola's head is. 770 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,520 Speaker 4: I believe it's still out there. I mean, this is 771 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,560 Speaker 4: where I'll probably end up selling like a conspiracy theorist 772 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:16,200 Speaker 4: about Yeah, but I mean you'll hear his head is 773 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:20,520 Speaker 4: over in Redwoods in California, along with Sitting Bull and 774 00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,359 Speaker 4: Geronimo as well at Bohemian Grove. If y'all ever heard 775 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,279 Speaker 4: about the Secret Society's that's over in California, you know 776 00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,120 Speaker 4: where you know George Bush and Bill Clinton are part of. 777 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,040 Speaker 4: It's a really strange thing if you read about those guys. 778 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,560 Speaker 4: But to me, like I said, it sounds like a 779 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,160 Speaker 4: conspiracy theorist. But I've talked to different people in the 780 00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,840 Speaker 4: community and they said, Yeah, there's his head's over in 781 00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:44,919 Speaker 4: California right now. 782 00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,640 Speaker 1: The Bohemian Grove is a twenty seven hundred acre private 783 00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:54,439 Speaker 1: club in Monte Rio, California, founded in eighteen seventy eight. 784 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:58,560 Speaker 1: In every variety of wild conspiracies construed by man can 785 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:02,439 Speaker 1: be found about this place. Here's doctor Wickman with one 786 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:04,080 Speaker 1: more little story. 787 00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,319 Speaker 3: The other was that I got a call from a 788 00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,880 Speaker 3: woman up in Jacksonville. She was on the city council, 789 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:15,840 Speaker 3: I think, and she had a contact on one of 790 00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,280 Speaker 3: those shows on television. It might have been America's Most 791 00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:24,040 Speaker 3: Pointed or something like that, and she wanted to get 792 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:30,520 Speaker 3: the question of finding Osciola's head on that program. And 793 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:35,120 Speaker 3: the lady up in Jacksonville was really quite aggressive, and 794 00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:38,680 Speaker 3: I tried really hard to explain to her that if 795 00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:42,960 Speaker 3: that head were found, that there is no question nowadays 796 00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:47,400 Speaker 3: that it would be only only within the purview of 797 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,160 Speaker 3: the Seminole tribe of Florida to decide what would happen 798 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,600 Speaker 3: to that head. And I know what would happen. I 799 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,799 Speaker 3: know what they would do, all right, And it's the 800 00:51:57,840 --> 00:51:59,680 Speaker 3: what they want to do. It's why they let me 801 00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,760 Speaker 3: hunt for it so that they could put him back together, 802 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:04,200 Speaker 3: and he could sleep in peace. 803 00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,080 Speaker 1: I've learned a lot in this search for Osiola's legacy, 804 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,480 Speaker 1: having heard his name in John Anderson's hit song Simon Oldwind, 805 00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,560 Speaker 1: and realizing that I didn't know much about him. It's 806 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:23,560 Speaker 1: been a fascinating story about this man, but also America. 807 00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,880 Speaker 1: I want to conclude with an editorial in an American 808 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:33,000 Speaker 1: newspaper published just days after Ostiola's death on January thirtieth, 809 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:38,239 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty eight. It reads, we have heard within a 810 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,879 Speaker 1: day or two very bitter things said about Ostiola by 811 00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:45,879 Speaker 1: a few persons. In our humble opinion, he has been 812 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:51,040 Speaker 1: to the full as much sinned against as sinning treacherous 813 00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,839 Speaker 1: he may have been, but we cannot forget that he 814 00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:58,719 Speaker 1: was provoked by treachery and captured by treachery. We are 815 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,799 Speaker 1: fairly even with them. We now owe him the respects 816 00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:06,680 Speaker 1: which the brave ever feel toward the brave, which the 817 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:12,200 Speaker 1: victorious cannot violate without brutality, towards the vanquished, which the 818 00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:16,839 Speaker 1: commonest laws of humanity and civilization enforced towards prisoners of war. 819 00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:21,480 Speaker 1: We sincerely trust that no citizen of Charleston will so 820 00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:26,040 Speaker 1: far forget the character of a Carolinian as to offer 821 00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:30,200 Speaker 1: indignity to a fallen man, a tear of forgiveness and 822 00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,880 Speaker 1: generous sympathy is much better due to the once terrible, 823 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:41,000 Speaker 1: now stricken warrior of the Seminoles. Here's doctor Wickman with 824 00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:42,040 Speaker 1: one final thought. 825 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:49,399 Speaker 3: Here's your bottom line. Here's your absolute bottom line. The 826 00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:53,920 Speaker 3: entire might of this nation was thrown against these people, 827 00:53:55,000 --> 00:54:00,640 Speaker 3: the entire might of the United States military well soon 828 00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:06,960 Speaker 3: against these people. And here we are two hundred years 829 00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:11,439 Speaker 3: down the road and they are still here. 830 00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:16,280 Speaker 2: And that is nothing short of a miracle. 831 00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,359 Speaker 3: I think that the least that we know them is 832 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:23,520 Speaker 3: to know their story and to tell it straight. 833 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:30,160 Speaker 1: I'm really enjoying the story, and I can't thank you 834 00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,480 Speaker 1: enough for listening to Bear Grease and Brent's This Country 835 00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,480 Speaker 1: Life podcast. On the next episode, we're carrying on with 836 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,840 Speaker 1: this story. We're going to talk about the bizarre circumstances 837 00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:48,560 Speaker 1: around the nineteen sixty seven zooming of Osiola's grave. No, 838 00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:53,800 Speaker 1: this story is not over. Please leave us a review 839 00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:57,200 Speaker 1: on iTunes and share our podcast with a buddy this week. 840 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:02,040 Speaker 1: Thank you, and keep the w wild places wild because 841 00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:03,080 Speaker 1: that's where the bears live. 842 00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:07,759 Speaker 3: M