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Speaker 1: The first time I seeing social media was that the

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Speaker 1: wind unit in Hauntsville, Texas. I think there's like around

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eleven.

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Speaker 2: Jeremy Busby is forty eight years old. We talked back

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Speaker 2: in October about the Internet and social media. But what's

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Speaker 2: different about this interview is that Jeremy's calling me from

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Speaker 2: a prison in Huntsville, Texas. Jimmy's been in prison since

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine. Back then, the Internet was a different place.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about Facebook or Twitter. But I

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Speaker 1: knew about my Space because when I was going to

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Speaker 1: pre society, my Space was just becoming a thing. So

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Speaker 1: I knew about that.

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Speaker 2: Jimmy didn't really have any contact with social media until

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Speaker 2: the early twenty tens, a few years after Facebook was

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Speaker 2: already popular.

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Speaker 1: A friend of mine had a contraband cell phone. It

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Speaker 1: was fresh from society. It just something certain, and so

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Speaker 1: this was a hard time livelihood social media. It was

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Speaker 1: all of my social media.

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Speaker 2: Since Jeremy's been locked up, social media has gone through

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Speaker 2: a few different phases. It went from this weird hobby

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Speaker 2: that college kids and computer nerds were into, to this

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Speaker 2: new hopeful way to spread democracy to now a more

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Speaker 2: pessimistic view of this thing that gives us short attention spans,

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Speaker 2: causes addictive behavior, and makes politics more polarized. But in prison,

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Speaker 2: the situation is a little different.

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Speaker 1: In twenty and twenty, when the pandemic came, Texas prison

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Speaker 1: system had no protocol on how to deal with the

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Speaker 1: COVID nineteen pandemic. My salmate had two cell phones. He

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Speaker 1: was like, man, listen, you can use it on the phone.

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Speaker 1: He's just sitting right there. Man, I played the video.

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Speaker 1: You can use it if you want to use it.

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Speaker 1: And so finally, man, I grabbed a phone, and the

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Speaker 1: first thing I did is I want to do to

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Speaker 1: And I googled how do you set up a Facebook beach?

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Speaker 1: So I learned Facebook. I learned Instagram, I learned Twitter.

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Speaker 1: I learned how to be the videos. I learned how

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Speaker 1: to make slides. I learned how to get the message

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Speaker 1: out on Instagram, how to get the message out on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: And that's how we're being traded up on live.

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Speaker 2: In twenty twenty, during the peak of the COVID nineteen pandemic,

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Speaker 2: Jeremy went live on Instagram with the rapper named Trade

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Speaker 2: the Truth to talk about the conditions inside the Texas

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Speaker 2: State Prison. That put a lot more eyes on what

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Speaker 2: was happening in there.

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Speaker 1: Well, union man, I can't tell you the union, bro,

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Speaker 1: but I can tell you all intentions that's getting seenious

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Speaker 1: down here. Maine brothers. You know they dying from this

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Speaker 1: Corona main.

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Speaker 3: You said they cut the phones off. They now dangling

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Speaker 3: y'all car home.

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Speaker 1: Nah, they got everything wracked up, man, they go. I

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Speaker 1: think it's like thirty five units on lockdown for everybody

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Speaker 1: on here.

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Speaker 3: What's the best way for us to do. We need

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Speaker 3: to write Huntsville, We need to call the.

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Speaker 2: Social media is giving us unfiltered access into prisons, something

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Speaker 2: that we never had before, but we may not have

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Speaker 2: it for much longer.

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Speaker 1: You've got to look in prison like in the same

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Speaker 1: context as you look at this slavery. Not only do

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Speaker 1: these people try to control what goes out the prison,

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Speaker 1: they try to control what comes into the prison.

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Speaker 4: I'm afraid.

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Speaker 2: From Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcasts, this connect this is kill switch.

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Speaker 2: I'm Dexah Thomas.

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: Before we get into Jeremy's experiences with social media, we

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Speaker 2: should probably do some backstory. The reason that Jeremy's in

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Speaker 2: prison starts when he was twenty one years old. It

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Speaker 2: was October first, nineteen ninety eight, at a motel in

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Speaker 2: Dallas County. Here's how Jeremy explains it.

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Speaker 1: I pulled up in a motel about four or five

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Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. There was a couple of guys

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Speaker 1: out in the motel sending in drugs, and so they

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Speaker 1: tried to send me some drugs, and so we got

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Speaker 1: into an argument in the middle of the parking lot.

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Speaker 1: Because they was persistent. The argument turned into threats, and

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Speaker 1: he took his shirt off like he was going to

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Speaker 1: try to assout me at whatever the case may be.

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Speaker 1: His friend tried to hold him back, he wasn't able to,

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Speaker 1: and so when he ran, taught me I pulled a gun.

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Speaker 1: I sat him one time, and that was in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety eight, and that was else than me getting a

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Speaker 1: seventy five year prison sentence from murder.

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Speaker 2: Jimmy is now on his twenty seventh year of a

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Speaker 2: seventy five year sentence.

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Speaker 1: My mistake was I left the seed of the crime

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Speaker 1: when it happened. I panicked and I fled, And that

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Speaker 1: was the biggest mistake that I could have made, because

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Speaker 1: when they came down to my trial. That's pretty much

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Speaker 1: what the da TO lied upon, with the fact that

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Speaker 1: you know, if mister Busby really felt like that this

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Speaker 1: defense is why he didn't just wait for the police

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Speaker 1: to come. Why to be flee and all of that

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Speaker 1: calling kid from the hood, and uh, you know, we

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Speaker 1: don't really deal with the police too Once when something

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Speaker 1: like that happened, is just the natural reaction to flee.

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Speaker 1: But nevertheless, instead of crying up with spilled milk, I

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Speaker 1: decided to come to prison and identify the areas where

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Speaker 1: I went wrong that possibly led me to come into

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Speaker 1: prison for this sentence, and then making all of the

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Speaker 1: necessary SPEs that I needed to make to ensure that

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Speaker 1: this doesn't ever happen to me again, right, which includes

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Speaker 1: my problem sovereignt skills, my conflict resolution skills, my mechanisms,

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Speaker 1: all of these things that I wasn't taught during my youth.

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Speaker 2: Pretty soon after Jeremy arrived in prison, he realized that

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Speaker 2: he had something that the other incarcerated men around him

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Speaker 2: didn't have.

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Speaker 1: When I friends got to prison, one of the things

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Speaker 1: that I noticed, despite the fact that I had dropped

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Speaker 1: out of school in the eighth grade, I could read

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Speaker 1: and write and comprehend better than the majority of the

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Speaker 1: people that was in Texas prison. And so as a

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Speaker 1: result of that, I became like a person that would

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Speaker 1: help people write letters to their families. I was going

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Speaker 1: down to La La Berry helping people because I'm working

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Speaker 1: on my own personal case, but as I was learning,

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Speaker 1: I'm helping them interpret and learn the law.

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Speaker 3: And then finally I got.

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Speaker 1: In contact with a returnent named Dounia was a spoon.

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Speaker 1: We became real good friends, and she started writing me

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Speaker 1: because she had heard about my case. She wanted to

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Speaker 1: help me out, and so all of these letters that

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Speaker 1: I was writing to her, she eventually said, Jerremany, listen,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to take some of these lets just started

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Speaker 1: telling them to the newspaper because you're a real good writer,

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Speaker 1: and the stuff that you're writing me is about prisons,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of people on the outside don't understand

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Speaker 1: everything that you understand, and you do such a good

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Speaker 1: job and articulate this.

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Speaker 2: So, with Donnie's encouragement, Jeremy began the next phase of

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Speaker 2: his life as a journalist, just one who's reporting from

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Speaker 2: inside the prison. In general, even if a journalist like

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Speaker 2: me tries to go and observe things. Prison officials can

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Speaker 2: be very restrictive of what you can do. So having

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Speaker 2: a journalist on the inside like Jeremy means that people

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Speaker 2: in the outside world can get a more unfiltered look

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Speaker 2: at a world that was almost invisible to most of

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Speaker 2: us before.

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Speaker 1: They are already have this pedious, pedious process. O't recrost

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Speaker 1: act like person like you want us to fly to

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Speaker 1: get something on me, You're going to put you through

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Speaker 1: so much stuff to try to get it, and then

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Speaker 1: you might not even get it, and then they might

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Speaker 1: repact whatever you get and all of that craft and

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Speaker 1: so it's all a universal gain of censorship.

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Speaker 2: Jeremy knew that he could provide information to people on

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Speaker 2: the outside. He just didn't know if anyone would care

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Speaker 2: what he was saying. It turned out some people did.

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Speaker 1: Back in two thousand and three, I wrote an article

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Speaker 1: for the San Francisco I View about the heat and

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Speaker 1: Texas printing system and how we don't have any air

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Speaker 1: condition here. They don't give us any type of relief

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Speaker 1: as far as like cold water or any type of

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Speaker 1: cold showers or anything like that, and the gate extensive

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Speaker 1: heat and the printing system of course, everyone knows that

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Speaker 1: Texas has very hot summers. And most of these structures

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Speaker 1: that we have were built in the mid eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds, and they're all out of brick and steel,

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Speaker 1: and they don't have any type of modern ventilation or

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Speaker 1: anything of bad nature. And so if you don't have

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Speaker 1: family members on the outside that continue money to buy

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Speaker 1: a T shirt or buy a pro gym shorts, or

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Speaker 1: buy a peer tennis shoes, then you got to worry

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Speaker 1: your state uniform the whole entire time. It makes you

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Speaker 1: even hotter. There's been temperatures recorded inside of the cell

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Speaker 1: blocks inside of these buildings sometimes that have exceeded over

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Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty five degrees in certain places. In

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Speaker 1: order to come back the heat, this is what I

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Speaker 1: used to have to do. I go with my cell

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Speaker 1: and I have to put like maybe a couple of

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Speaker 1: gallons of water on the floor, and I had to

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Speaker 1: strip all the way down to my box shots and

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Speaker 1: I had to lay in that water. And you have

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Speaker 1: to repeat that process over and over and over and

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Speaker 1: over again just to maintain a body temperature that prohibits

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Speaker 1: you from having a heat scroke. And you have some

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Speaker 1: guys that are like put the shirts and the water

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Speaker 1: and they work a shirt wise with because we don't

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Speaker 1: have a shower that you can just go walk and

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Speaker 1: get into the showers, like one shower per day. Room.

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Speaker 1: I think we was averaging something close to like ten

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Speaker 1: to fifteen heat related den every single summer.

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Speaker 3: It takes the Prinson Oh my gosh, they feel like the.

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Speaker 1: Numbers can beat a lot more because they'll come back

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Speaker 1: after they ATOPSAI or whatever and say this guy died

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Speaker 1: for complications of diabetes, or he died for complications and hypertension.

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Speaker 1: But the truth of the matter is there was the

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Speaker 1: heat that triggered all of it, and with the heat

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Speaker 1: related illness that caused depth. And so I had wrote

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Speaker 1: this long article to the San Francisco A View and

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Speaker 1: I basically said, listen, there's nothing for these people to

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Speaker 1: bring down coolers and pull them up with ice every

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Speaker 1: morning and allow us to be able to drink cold

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Speaker 1: water throughout the day. And that could possibly say one, two,

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Speaker 1: maybe ten, maybe one hundred lives. Right when I wrote that,

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Speaker 1: some days later they came with a whole big cart

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Speaker 1: full of yellow ig little coolers that were still done

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Speaker 1: with ice. And they put one on every single cent

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Speaker 1: of block.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: That immediate, Yeah, that immediately.

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Speaker 1: And then my editor at the time was Mary Ratcliffe

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Speaker 1: at the San Francisco a View, and she told me

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Speaker 1: that they politely sent her a letter asked her she

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Speaker 1: can retract my article because they had solved the problem.

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Speaker 2: We reached out to the Texas Department of Criminal Justice

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Speaker 2: about Jeremy, saying that they'd asked for his article to

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Speaker 2: be retracted. They declined to comment. After Jeremy wrote his

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Speaker 2: article on the heat inside prisons, He's also reported on

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Speaker 2: overdoses and suicide in prison, experiencing executions happening in his cell,

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Speaker 2: and what happens when the prison goes on lockdown. His

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Speaker 2: works appeared in places that specialize in reporting on prisons,

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Speaker 2: like the Marshall Project, but it's also been in publications

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Speaker 2: that the general public reads, like Slate magazine or the

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Speaker 2: Columbia Journalism Review. But getting those articles out isn't always easy.

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Speaker 1: As an incarcerated journalist, I have this heal that I

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Speaker 1: have to climb with these legacy media outlets. I have

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Speaker 1: to cost all of my teens, I have to die,

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Speaker 1: all of my eyes. I damn never have to put

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Speaker 1: them in contact with the warden, with a warden to say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: everything that Jeremy wrote is legit. And so a lot

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Speaker 1: of times some of the stuff that the people right

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Speaker 1: being incuscerated they write the media outlets, that stuff never

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Speaker 1: gets to the press because some editor some web saying, hey, man,

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Speaker 1: I can't find what we can substantiate this, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if this really is going on, or whatever the

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Speaker 1: case may be, So it ends up in somebody's ShredIt. Now,

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Speaker 1: as you know from being on the outside in journalism,

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Speaker 1: when you got social media, you can skip the whole

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Speaker 1: entire legacy media outlet process. You have an unobstructed avenue

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Speaker 1: to put the information out that you want to put out.

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Speaker 2: The ability to communicate directly with the outside world is

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Speaker 2: crucial for Jeremy. But how does he do it? So

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Speaker 2: there are two main ways that incarcerated people can communicate

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Speaker 2: through social media. The first one is directly through a

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Speaker 2: contraband cell phone. These are against the rules, but they

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Speaker 2: make their way into prisons all the time. The other

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Speaker 2: way is to call or write to someone who's on

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Speaker 2: the outside and have them post on your behalf. Jeremy's

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Speaker 2: done both either way. Social media gives Jeremy away to

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Speaker 2: show his perspective from prison directly without being filtered through

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Speaker 2: prison officials or waiting for a local media outlet who

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Speaker 2: believes is reporting, or hoping that some outside reporter would

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Speaker 2: take interest and cover it for him. The best example

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Speaker 2: of this is when COVID hit. The cell mate had

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Speaker 2: a contraband cell phone, and so Jeremy was able to

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Speaker 2: directly broadcast what was actually happening and get immediate responses

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Speaker 2: to help the incarcerated people around them.

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Speaker 1: I'm researching this COVID nineteen coronavirus and all of the

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Speaker 1: precautions that we need in order to takguard ourselves from

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Speaker 1: contracting it. One of the main troo things that they

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Speaker 1: asked you to do, where there's really three things they

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Speaker 1: ask you the social distance, the one are n ninety

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Speaker 1: five masks, and to properly sanitize your hands. Right, so

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Speaker 1: take the prison just on what they did. They cut

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Speaker 1: up a bunch of sheets and put the little screens

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Speaker 1: on the side of the sh and they would issuing

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Speaker 1: those sheets out to us. It was like an ninety

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Speaker 1: five mass It's a.

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Speaker 2: Cut up sheet, it's bed sheets.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, yeah, it's a bad sheet.

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Speaker 1: Secondly, they wasn't passing out any type of sanitation chemicals

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Speaker 1: like hand sanitizers or anything of dead nature. And then thirdly,

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Speaker 1: it was impossible for a social distance because they got

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Speaker 1: us locked them stair with another person. So my reporting

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Speaker 1: on all of that and social media got us n

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Speaker 1: ninety five masks. They got us a bleach. They started

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Speaker 1: passing us real food out fire nutrition like savannas and

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Speaker 1: apples and grill milk.

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Speaker 2: Again, we asked the Texas Department of Criminal Justice about this,

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Speaker 2: and they declined to comment. Ask most people what they

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Speaker 2: think about social media, and they'll tell you that there's

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Speaker 2: good parts but also a lot of bad parts, echo chambers, misinformation,

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Speaker 2: all that. Jeremy's aware of this stuff, but he's also

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Speaker 2: aware that social media is how a lot of people

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Speaker 2: get their news. For him, that's an opportunity to speak

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Speaker 2: but also to learn.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that social media did for me

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Speaker 1: is that when I even had an idea of an article,

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Speaker 1: or if I wrote the article out itself, all different

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Speaker 1: type of people will start sending me additional information to

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Speaker 1: either support or the gate starting to advance the topic.

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Speaker 1: Matters that I found interesting right, And what I realized

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Speaker 1: about social media is that I can reach people out

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Speaker 1: around the world, just opposed as like if I write

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Speaker 1: for a local publication, I might reach people right here

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Speaker 1: in Texas. If I write for a national application, I

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Speaker 1: might get to thirty five percent of the nation. But

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Speaker 1: when I put something on social media, I can circulate

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Speaker 1: that all over the world and even translate it into

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Speaker 1: our different type of languages. I was talking to people

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Speaker 1: that's far away in Switzerland about the situation in Texas printicens.

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Speaker 1: I know now that I don't necessarily have to put

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Speaker 1: one of my articles in a publication. I can just

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Speaker 1: drop it in a thread on it and it have

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Speaker 1: the same value that it would have if I had

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Speaker 1: dropped it in a petition like the Apedia.

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Speaker 2: Once Jeremy found a way to use social media, he

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Speaker 2: suddenly had access to a whole world that he didn't before.

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Speaker 2: But that's starting to change. Cell phones have always been contraband,

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Speaker 2: but now prisons across the country are really cracking down

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Speaker 2: on social media access. We'll get into how and why

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Speaker 2: after the break.

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Speaker 1: One of the first themes that they told me when

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Speaker 1: I became a journalist in prison, the warden called me up,

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Speaker 1: and he talked to me about those two fins that's

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Speaker 1: around the prison, the trim of the fence with the

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Speaker 1: bob wah. And he asked me, he said, Buzzin, why

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Speaker 1: did you think we got those two fins out there

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Speaker 1: with the bob wah? And I said, well, that's to

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Speaker 1: keep people from escaping. He said, no, that's the wrong answer.

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Speaker 1: We're not worried about anybody escaping. That's to keep the

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Speaker 1: public out here. And when you write what you write

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Speaker 1: and give these people entry to come into my prison,

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Speaker 1: you blinging the move with my damn fence.

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Speaker 3: And I don't like that.

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Speaker 1: That's what the warman told me. And so the social

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Speaker 1: media banned Phibbits people from bringing the general public open

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Speaker 1: the fence.

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Speaker 2: In twenty sixteen, the state of Texas, where Jemy's incarcerated,

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Speaker 2: added a brand new rule to the state's prison handbook.

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Speaker 2: The rule essentially banned incarcerated people from having any personal

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Speaker 2: social media pages run in their name, meaning that no

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Speaker 2: one outside of prison is supposed to even run an

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Speaker 2: account on Jeremy's behalf. Similar bands have also been put

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Speaker 2: in places in other states like Alabama and Iowa, and

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Speaker 2: last year the US Federal Bureau of Prisons proposed a

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Speaker 2: rule like the one in Texas, but that would apply

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Speaker 2: across the entire federal prison system. If an incarcerated person

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Speaker 2: was found to have a social media account, that violation

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Speaker 2: would be treated as a high severity level offense. That's

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Speaker 2: the same category that's applied to things like fighting in prison.

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Speaker 1: That garrier that the prison administration had to continue. The

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Speaker 1: status quo no longer gets to them, and so therefore

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Speaker 1: they got to do whatever they got to do to

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Speaker 1: put that back in place. So they got their social

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Speaker 1: media band back.

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Speaker 2: In twenty sixteen, when the Texas Department of Criminal Justice

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Speaker 2: put their social media ban in place, they told Vice

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Speaker 2: News that quote offenders have used social media accounts to

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Speaker 2: sell items over the internet based on the notoriety of

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Speaker 2: their crime, harass victims or victims families, and continue their

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Speaker 2: criminal activity. The department went on to say that they

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Speaker 2: would quote take all of the necessary steps to prevent

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Speaker 2: that from happening. We contacted them to ask whether that's

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Speaker 2: still the reason for the band today. They declined to comment.

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Speaker 2: But again, there's another side of this. If we want

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Speaker 2: to talk about criminal activity, we have to acknowledge that

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Speaker 2: social media is exposing allegedly unlawful activity that the outside

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Speaker 2: world should know about.

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Speaker 1: Now you can take a picture, shoot a video by

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Speaker 1: what's going on her the prison system and put that

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Speaker 1: on Facebook and Instagram, and it's trying to go viral

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Speaker 1: and it's gonna cost people their jobs. So that's scared

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Speaker 1: the hell lot of prisons officials. It's a lot of them,

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Speaker 1: right because now, like what happened with me and No

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Speaker 1: Way Out documentary, when I work with Kerry Bleckinger behind

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Speaker 1: the Coast, you have last okay, but I wasn't live

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Speaker 1: with trade the truth. I was able to do all

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Speaker 1: of that unrestricted, without having to wrestle with any type

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Speaker 1: of legal media. I'm met at anything like that. We

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Speaker 1: just dropped it and it comes a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: back lass. So let me call you one more time.

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Speaker 2: Okay. Phone calls in Jeremy's unit are limited to thirty minutes,

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Speaker 2: so we had to reconnect a few times during the interview.

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Speaker 2: That's why you might hear Jeremy rush through sentences. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: he's just trying to get out as much as possible

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Speaker 2: before he gets cut off. But what he's getting at

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Speaker 2: here is important. When word gets out about conditions on

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Speaker 2: the inside, it can make things hard for the officials

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Speaker 2: who work there. Jeremy thinks that the bands are partially

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Speaker 2: there to stop that from happening, but banning stuff from

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Speaker 2: making rules is one thing. The next step is the

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Speaker 2: current Trump administration wants to make it physically impossible to

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Speaker 2: communicate directly with the outside branding card.

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Speaker 1: Now from the FCC, they're going around trying to pass

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Speaker 1: this new law to where they can put cell phone

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Speaker 1: genres up outside of prisons.

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Speaker 2: Cell Phone jammers are devices that can block cell phone

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Speaker 2: signals within a certain range. These devices, in general are

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Speaker 2: illegal partially because they're dangerous. I mean, think about it.

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Speaker 2: If cell signals can't get through, you can't call the

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Speaker 2: paramedics or they can't find you. So obviously the general

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Speaker 2: public can't have them. But for that same reason, in general,

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Speaker 2: even state and local law enforcement can't legally use them.

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Speaker 2: But recently the FCC is considering letting prisons use these

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Speaker 2: jammers to block contraband cell phone use.

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Speaker 1: They want people to think the people utilizing these phones

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Speaker 1: to organized criminal activity, and you might have a handful

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Speaker 1: of people that might utilize the country band cell phone

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Speaker 1: organized criminal activity, but from being incarcerated almost thirty years,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you that the majority of the people

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Speaker 1: that using country band cell phones are trying to connect

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Speaker 1: with non lost family members, loved ones, childhood plans, and

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Speaker 1: other people like myself are utilizing to report on the

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Speaker 1: conditions of the prison. And then you got third demographic

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Speaker 1: for people that just want to watch porn and movies

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Speaker 1: and videos and things of that nature. Right, there's very

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Speaker 1: few people that utilize the phone to organize criminal activity,

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Speaker 1: but the prison dishes they scared that the person that's

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Speaker 1: incarcerated is gonna take the phone and expose them, and

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Speaker 1: so that's the reason why they're pushing this.

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Speaker 2: Despite all these attempts to block incarcerated people's access to

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Speaker 2: social media, Jeremy's been able to report out what's going

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Speaker 2: on in prison. But when he has, he says he's

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Speaker 2: been retaliated against.

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Speaker 1: The nature of my career is when I write something,

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Speaker 1: it don't take very long one to come down and

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Speaker 1: talk to me or try to or intimidate or you know,

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Speaker 1: and all of that. I'm pump beginning me number one

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Speaker 1: with these people. If you see anything that people don't like,

414
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Speaker 1: they can go look through your files and possibly subject

415
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Speaker 1: you to some type of political prosecution or file of

416
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Speaker 1: lossuit on you'll smear your name or come kick in

417
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Speaker 1: your door, or lock you up and spread you with

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Speaker 1: chemical agents and all that. I've been through all of that,

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Speaker 1: but you don't have as many people like myself. That's

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Speaker 1: what you speaking out against these people, because they gonna

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Speaker 1: come out for you, right, They're gonna take all your property,

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Speaker 1: they gonna transfer you to different units, they gonna put

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Speaker 1: you in solitary confinement. Last year, I've been transferred to

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Speaker 1: four different units. Each time I get to the unit,

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Speaker 1: I'm spending days in the said with no mattress, no sheets,

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Speaker 1: no blankets, no basic necessities like self two basic deodorant.

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Speaker 1: This is the stuff that.

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Speaker 3: You go through.

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Speaker 1: And so for the majority of the people in prison here,

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Speaker 1: hey man, just put your head down and don't say nothing,

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Speaker 1: and they.

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Speaker 3: Don't come after you.

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Speaker 1: I have never took that approach because I understand what

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Speaker 1: that approach does to a person. For you to put

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Speaker 1: your head down for so many times, after so many years,

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Speaker 1: that becomes in you. You're part of your character and

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Speaker 1: who you are. And I don't want to live like that.

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Speaker 1: And so I resist, then I do it in the

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Speaker 1: fist of matters, right. I don't never write anything ever

440
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 1: that I don't try to work with the administration first

441
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 1: all and say here's a problem right here. I'm thinking

442
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: about writing this, but if we can solve this problem,

443
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 1: I forget about writing it. It's only when they're not

444
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: interested in solving the problem that I know I can

445
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,439
Speaker 1: write and get the problem solved. So as a result

446
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: of that, Jeremy Busby is public enemy number one. I'm

447
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 1: the number one agitator whatever they want to call me.

448
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 1: But you know, I don't really you know, I don't

449
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: really call an agitation. I can't just like good trouble,

450
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,479
Speaker 1: like John Lewis caught it good Truble. This is good trouble.

451
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 2: Earlier this year, when the Columbia Journalism Review asked Texas

452
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 2: prison officials about Jeremy's claims that he's being retaliated against,

453
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 2: they've denied it. When we asked them, they declined to comment.

454
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 2: Right now, as we record this episode, Jeremy's in solitary

455
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 2: confinement for what he says is a response to his reporting.

456
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 2: More on that after the break. So hold on, Jimmy,

457
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 2: you're in solitary right now.

458
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a solitary confinement right now. I'm talking to

459
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: you from a solitary confinement sale. My sale is about

460
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: the size of your king size mattress. That's the whole

461
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: size of my sale. I got a callet in a

462
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 1: sink to be a combot right here. I got a gash,

463
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: and I got a metal bump that I lay on,

464
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: and I'm confine to this sale twenty four hours a day.

465
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: There are no windows. I can't tell you if there's

466
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: nighttime or daytime. The only thing that I can see

467
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: is directly in front of my said when somebody walks past.

468
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 1: They got a solid steel door with two petch of

469
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: glass windows on the front of it, and a siny

470
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: steel door that goes all the way down to the bottom.

471
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,479
Speaker 1: Why I can't even slide anything out of the bottom.

472
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: I don't even have any communication with anybody except for

473
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: the guard. So it's mentally crippling. Everybody understand that it

474
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: is mentally crippling because it cuts you all the way

475
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: off from human to human contact.

476
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 2: If you remember our episode on tablets in prison, Jeremy

477
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 2: says that they were recently given one of those state

478
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: issued tablet devices that lets them watch religious and educational programming,

479
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: and from two pm to eight pm daily, he can

480
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,959
Speaker 2: pay to make phone calls if it's to a number

481
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: that has registered to receive a call from the prison.

482
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: How long you been in there?

483
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: I've been inside of child from finally since June two

484
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: thy and twenty four year. Over a year. No discproary cases, nothing.

485
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: The guards I always asked me all the time, hey man,

486
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: why they got you in here? Buzz people? And I

487
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: tell them just google me and then they come back

488
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: and say, Okay, I know why they got you in here.

489
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: Right then I even they have some of them come

490
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: to me and hey, man, won't you just quit being a journalist?

491
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: They and let you out of here? And I'm like,

492
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's certain trade offs that I'm just not

493
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: willing to make, right, And uh, these people they continue

494
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: to try to harass me and book and you know,

495
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: and do all the things that they do because of

496
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: my journalism. Then hey, that's just the here that I'm down, right,

497
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: that's the hear that I'm down Because I didn't have

498
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 1: very much dext to when I came to prison. You know,

499
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: I grew up my mind. I lost my mind when

500
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: I was floored. My dad has always been a dead beat.

501
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: I dropped out of school when I was eight, and

502
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: I was running the streets and all of that, and

503
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 1: so all of the meaningful things that I was able

504
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: to obtain for myself during my in concentration, I'll be

505
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: damned if I'm gonna give that back to anybody.

506
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 2: You were talking about. That was somebody knocking back there. Hey,

507
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 2: So in the middle of our interview, we were interrupted

508
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 2: by a guard knocking on jeremy cell door.

509
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: Hey, hey, look at hello, Hey man, I want you

510
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: to quit doing that. I'm on the telephone. I asked you,

511
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: I asked you to quit doing that, but I'm on

512
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 1: the phone. I asked you to quit beating on the

513
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: door because I'm on the telephone. You're interrupted my telephone call.

514
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 1: I asked you that you did that to day, and

515
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: I asked you to quit doing that. I I know you, Okay,

516
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 1: I'm sorry about that. Now you got you got some

517
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: officers that he said here, he's seated most as the phone,

518
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 1: so he's just don't come and just beat on the door,

519
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: beat on the door, beat on the door. But anyway,

520
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: I'm sorry about that.

521
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 2: It's all good, it's all good.

522
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 3: Man.

523
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 2: Who was it? What happened?

524
00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 3: Just now?

525
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 1: I got a guard. Now he's the guard. Right. What

526
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 1: they do is they come by every five, ten, fifteen

527
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: minutes and just beat on the door with the bard

528
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: things that they got. He had done that five times today.

529
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: He's trying to attagnize me. He trying to get the

530
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: reaction that he just got to know that he's getting

531
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: up under my skin. They do stuff like that, and

532
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 1: so but I talked talk politely, you know, first couple

533
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: of times and say, hey, sir, if you don't mind,

534
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: and you come to the door. You can see me

535
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: in the door and my light is on. I'm moving

536
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 1: around it myself. Why do you feel like you have

537
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: to beat on the door for five minutes? He has

538
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: a language barrier. His English is not very good. And

539
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: so he came back and did it again, and I say, hey, man,

540
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: do you understand you just stir at people's piece when

541
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: you're doing all of this. But anyway, so here it is.

542
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: He came and worked at seven o'clock this morning. It's

543
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: three o'clock and uh, just the same time that he's

544
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: been to my cell and done this crap.

545
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I'm sorry. No, you don't got to

546
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: apologize me. Hearing what Jeremy has to go through just

547
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 2: to survive is a lot. I can't imagine what it's

548
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: like to be doing journalistic reporting.

549
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 3: And then on top of that, we did a no

550
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 3: Kings protest real quick.

551
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: So I organized the no Kings protest, right.

552
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 2: Jeremy, You organized a no Kings protest in there?

553
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, Hell yeah, Jeremy.

554
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: Hey man, this stuff is serious. Bro. Let me tell

555
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: you how to organized it. Okay, can say like the

556
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: dudes is down in the world for me. He sent

557
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: me a letter and telling me that his niece came

558
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: home and her mom and her dad had been picked

559
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: up by ice. No, his niece came off from school

560
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: and her parents was gone. Then I got this other guy.

561
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: He's telling me about how his mom been working for

562
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: the federal government in Houston at nasal for all of

563
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: these years, and the government shut down then slowed her right,

564
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: so she's not able to send any money for his

565
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: coming center money on his phone. So when I got

566
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: thinking about all this, I'm telling all of these dudes

567
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: over there while I'm met, like, hey man, this thing

568
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,719
Speaker 1: and Trump got going on and the second all of us.

569
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,719
Speaker 1: So we need to protest and stand in solid differently

570
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: with the people on our side.

571
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 3: Okay, Jeremy, what you.

572
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: Got in mind? Okay, listen for this Saturday, We're gonna

573
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: not accept our food. If anybody need food, let me know.

574
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: I'll send you some food to eat. But we're gonna

575
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: put sign on our doors they say no food, no talk,

576
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: no kings.

577
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 2: Wow we did that, Oh my gosh.

578
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 3: So it was.

579
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: Peaceful all the way up to about eight o'clock at night.

580
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: They one of the guys that we recruited, he's not

581
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: all the way there, and so he started talking like,

582
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: you know, man, damn this denying of food. I'm ready

583
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: to set it off. So he set there like three

584
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: long fire in his sail, right and this other guy

585
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: manipulated the lock on his cell and he busts out

586
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: the sail and just start ripping the TV's off the wall.

587
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: But what I'm showing you is this, Okay, these guys,

588
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: the guy that ripped the TV off the while that

589
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: don't hurt the prison officials. Those TV's are for us.

590
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: And so now all the TV's that you have ripped off,

591
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: people came walf the news or whatever it is that

592
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: they want to watch. You're hurting the whole community. They

593
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: just chose you. The mental deficiency that most the majority

594
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: of the people current have and is not mild.

595
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 2: According to Jeremy, the conditions of the system only exacerbate

596
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 2: the problems that he sees in prison along with mental illness.

597
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 2: He says that the prison system in Texas suffers from

598
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: problems with violence, drugs, and suicides, and to him, these

599
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 2: problems and the social media bands that they want to

600
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 2: put in place, it's all related.

601
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: It's always been my position that when you describe family

602
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: bonds and make it impossible for the family is to communicate,

603
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: then that puts the person in a better situation, and

604
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: sometimes in order to get out of that situation because

605
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: of what's going on in prison, you have to turn

606
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: the dope. My whole things needed like, it's not of

607
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: putting money into further destroying family times, as far as

608
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: taking people small privileges away and putting them in a

609
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: position to where they can become more depressed and become

610
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: more mentally disturbed, to where they have to increase their

611
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: drug usage. Let's take that same energy, those same resources

612
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: and the same money as let's put it towards shown

613
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: to repair family bonds. Let's put it towards trying to

614
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: help people accumulate menal for things like today can receive

615
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: a substance use. Let's put it towards like putting people

616
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: through rehabilitation.

617
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna say this, as a journalist who's reported

618
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: on prisons, I would never be able to bring you

619
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 2: this kind of insight. Jeremy's work provides something that's really rare.

620
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: It's a look at what's actually happening inside this prison.

621
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 2: But also his work isn't just on behalf of the

622
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: incarcerated people. There's one of your pieces that I was

623
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: reading earlier today, and it was an article this is

624
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: for the Chronicle. I want to quote you here. You said,

625
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 2: for nearly three decades, I've watched this broken system break people,

626
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: both staff and the incarcerated. Instead of returning prisoners back

627
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: to their communities a better version of themselves, prisons returned

628
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 2: them more psychologically damaged, disenfranchised, and poorer than when they entered.

629
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: I've seen staff members lose their families, their drive to succeed,

630
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 2: and even with suicide, their lives. I think people might

631
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 2: be surprised to hear that you're also advocating for staff

632
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 2: members for the guards. Yeah, like the person who just

633
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 2: came by and beat on your door.

634
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that comes from my mentor is retired sing

635
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: to Warden burning Pigment. And one of the things that

636
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: Warden Pigman told me about is that, hey, Disney, gentleman,

637
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: we all are humans, whether if you made a mistaken

638
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: you in prison, or if you made a mistaken you

639
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: worked for the prison. Because everybody could work for the

640
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: prisons and made them mistake. The people that work in

641
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: prison and the people that are in prison all come

642
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: from the same social economic demographics. The majority of them

643
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: either made it through high school and went to the

644
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 1: military and couldn't make it. Some of them dropped out

645
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: of high school and got the ged and started working

646
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: at a low local fast food restaurant or something. But

647
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: it's very few people inside of prison that has a

648
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: cottage degree that works here. Very few people.

649
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 2: I mean, it really could be people who would have

650
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 2: been neighbors otherwise. And I guess the neighbors now, yeah.

651
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, of course the neighbors. They of course they neighbors.

652
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: And I'm telling y'all. Let to say this, the people

653
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: that work here are not the brightest people that you're

654
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: gonna find on earth. So they easily manipulated. And the

655
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: same deficiencies that I came to prison with, which is

656
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 1: a lack of coping skills, no conflict resolution, no constructive

657
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: decision making processes or any of that, the same things

658
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: that I came to prison with the majority of these

659
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,399
Speaker 1: God has worked in the prison with those same deficiencies.

660
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 2: I got to ask you this, are you concerned about

661
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 2: talking to me about this?

662
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 3: No?

663
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no talk. I'll talk about this

664
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: every chance that I get. One of this is any

665
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: secret these people that what's going on. These people have

666
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: done so much to me, there's nothing else that they

667
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: can do. I'm not worried about them killing me physically, right,

668
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: There's nothing that they can do to me but my

669
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: journalism that haven't already been done.

670
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: So my conversation with Jeremy had me thinking about another

671
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: conversation I had a few months ago with Gabby Kaplan.

672
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 2: She's the journalist who's reported on the tablets that have

673
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: been issued in prisons across the country and the federal

674
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 2: government's efforts to limit the communication abilities on those tablets.

675
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: If you haven't heard that episode yet, definitely check it out.

676
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: I'll leave a link in the show notes. But if

677
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 2: you look at the comments online about her reporting, you

678
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 2: might see people arguing that, well, if you're in prison,

679
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 2: having a tablet or social media is a luxury, you

680
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: shouldn't be able to have that kind of luxury.

681
00:35:59,040 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 3: Period.

682
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 2: Okay, that's an opinion, but I can read you an

683
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,720
Speaker 2: argument that Jeremy Busby himself wrote in a recent article,

684
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 2: and I'm just gonna quote him here. Regulations that rob

685
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: incarcerated individuals of the ability to expose cruelties and human

686
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 2: rights violations and hold prison officials accountable hurt more people

687
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 2: and cause more negative societal consequences than they prevent, just

688
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 2: as those whose lives were saved or drastically improved by

689
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: reporting only made possible with the use of contraband cell phones.

690
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 2: And then he closes that article with a request, quote,

691
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: give journalists meaningful access to prisons and prison records, give

692
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 2: incarcerated people the tools to communicate with the outside world

693
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 2: and document abuses without censorship and retaliation. And I'll never

694
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: use a contraband cell phone again, or better yet, don't

695
00:36:52,560 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 2: commit those abuses at all. In quote special thanks this

696
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 2: week to the Freedom of the Press Foundation and to

697
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 2: the Never Post podcast to introduce us to Jeremy and

698
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 2: help make this whole episode possible. If you like kill Switch,

699
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 2: I think you'll also like Never Post and we'll put

700
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 2: a link to that in the show notes. And thank

701
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 2: you once again for listening to kill Switch. If you

702
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 2: want to talk, you can email us at kill Switch

703
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 2: at Kalaidscope dot NYC. We're also on Instagram at kill

704
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 2: switch pod. And if you dug this one, think about

705
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,439
Speaker 2: leaving us a review. It helps other people find the show,

706
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: which you turn helps us keep doing our thing, and

707
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 2: once you've done that, in case you didn't know, kill

708
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: Switch is also on YouTube, so if you'd like to

709
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 2: see the people that you're hearing, you can check out

710
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 2: the link for that in the show notes. Kill Switch

711
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 2: is hosted by Me Dexter Thomas. It's produced by Shena Ozaki,

712
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 2: Darluck Potts, and Julia Nutter. Our theme song is by

713
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 2: me and Kyle Murdoch, and Kyle also mixed the show

714
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 2: from Kalaidoscope. Our executive producers are oz Va Lashin, Mangesh

715
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 2: Hadikador and Kate Osba from iHeart Our executive producers are

716
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 2: Katrina Norvel and Nikki E.

717
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 4: Tor.

718
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 2: Thank you for using sekuus. Goodbye,