WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 229 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:05.520 Also media, Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:08.559 to let you know this is a compilation episode. So 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.320 every episode of the week that just happened is here 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:16.239 in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:18.440 you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.000 If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:25.480 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.560 Welcome to it could happen here a podcast where I 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.920 explained fake money things that are actually real too, Molly, Molly, 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.279 thank you so much for coming back on. I am 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:41.200 your host, Bio long. I am excited to learn now 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.000 long ago in a galaxy far far away. And I'm 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:46.519 saying this because I legitimately do not remember how many 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.360 weeks ago have you released the original one of this. 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:53.360 But back in that episode where we explain shadow banking, 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:56.520 I said that I had had to cut off the 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.120 part of the episode that was the reason why I 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:01.480 wrote it in the first voice, it happens to me 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:06.920 every week, Yes, so Comma, I've also kind of had 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.240 to split some of this episode off. That will probably 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:12.760 that will be another episode, probably with ezetron whenever I 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:16.720 have enough seconds in my life to pull all of 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:21.560 that together. But today we are here to talk about 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.800 the actual sort of shadow bank run. I guess you 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:29.240 would call it financial problems that caused me to write 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:31.080 the shadow banking episode in the first place. 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.640 Oh right, why I originally asked you what shadow banking 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.360 is some kind of economy problem? And there was like 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:40.160 a fake run on the fake banks. 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.080 Yes, and Molly, you will be extremely unhappy to note 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:46.880 that a big part of the reason why there was 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:48.480 the fake run on the fank banks was that the 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:50.520 shadow banks loaned a bunch of money to a different 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:51.559 type of shadow bank. 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:53.280 I don't think they should have done that, and. 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:55.760 That shadow bank went under. Great things are. 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:57.960 Happening here, but they're not FDIC insured. 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:00.720 Me ah, no, no, nope, nope. 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:05.480 So okay, this gets us back to our original definition 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:07.240 of a shadow bank, which is that it's a bank 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:11.280 that does banking things. That's not a bank, so it's 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.840 not ensured by the FDIC. They don't have to have 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.640 money on hand to make sure that they can't be 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:18.519 a bank run on them. 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:21.839 Right, So they just said no more transactions please. 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:26.840 Yes, So what Molly is referring to is a few 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:28.960 weeks ago. I guess maybe like a month ago. At 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:33.119 this point, there was actually a breakthrough into the kind 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.600 of mainstream ish of some stuff that I've been brewing 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.040 in the financial news for a while, and that was 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:44.600 that a bunch of companies, Morgan stan Lee and Blackrock 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:48.800 I think we're kind of the two biggest ones that 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.280 stopped this, although a bunch of these sort of smaller 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:53.880 what are called private credit firms also sort of did 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:54.560 things like this. 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:58.959 And so because they're not really banks, there's no regulation 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:02.320 that says they have have to serve their customers, right, 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:04.120 They can just say no, okay. 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.040 So this is part of what's really a shit show. 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:07.880 I guess let's start. 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:10.800 At the beginning. So what happened? Sorry I got as derailed. 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:15.280 Yeah, let's run back to the specific thing we're talking 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.640 about here is a thing called private credit, and so 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:21.239 private credit, I'm just going to read this thing from 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:23.800 the teller window, which is, I don't know, the telor 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:27.080 window is actually a decently useful thing. Where the telor 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.160 window is the FED is like I'm going to explain 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.200 something to normal people. Now. The problem is that this 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:35.800 is still the Federal Reserve. So their explanation for normal people. 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:37.160 By normal people, they mean. 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:39.720 Like, I don't know, like dipshit day traders, right. 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.480 Normal people don't have questions about the Federal Reserve. 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.640 Yeah, so it's like this is like for people who 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:48.600 are kind of know this stuff but are running into 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.400 this like arcane subfield for the first time. So I'm 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:53.880 just going to quote from them because I think it's 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:58.120 an interesting place to start. Although there is no universal definition, 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:01.600 which you know things are going great when our second 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:03.840 episode in a road talking about it, you can't all 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:09.880 agree what it's so good? It's so good, Although there 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.520 is no universal definition. Private credit generally refers to a 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:17.280 loan that is negotiated between a borrower and a small 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:21.560 group of non bank lenders. These non bank financial institution 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:27.040 lenders are typically alternative asset managers such as private equity firms, 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:33.000 who package loans in different investment vehicles. Other non bank 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:36.920 financial institutions like pension funds, insurance companies, and sovereign wealth 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.839 funds then invest in those vehicles. So this is the 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:45.280 stuff that we talked about from last episode, where Okay, 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:49.520 so you have multiple layers of shadow banks, right, you 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.839 have on the one hand that the private credit firms 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:55.880 are these these sort of groups that go in and 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.000 sometimes they're just their own things. There's a bunch of 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.400 different kinds of of them. Private equities firms tend to 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:06.560 have like one arm of the private equity firm that's there, 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:10.000 like this is our shiny private credit wing. There were 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:14.120 also these things called business development corporations which do these. 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.600 There are like other types of them too, But basically 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:19.719 what those companies do is they go in and they 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.800 negotiate a loan with a usually a pretty long term 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:28.479 for repayments on the loan with a company. Now, the 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.800 thing about these loans is that the terms of those 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:37.640 loans are secret from everybody. Yeah, even the people involved. 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:40.600 Well when I say secret, I mean the company that's 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:43.840 taking out the loan and the bank know how they work. 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:47.359 No one else does. And then what happens is these 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:50.120 are usually fairly risky loans, because if you weren't doing 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.160 a risky loan, you would get your money through like 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.839 a normal bank. Yeah, you will to do it normal style, right, 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:58.400 this is not normal style. These are risky. And then 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.600 they do the thing called curitization, which we talked about 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:05.360 last episode where you take a loan and do magic 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:07.719 to it and turn it into something that someone else 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:08.160 can buy. 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.960 Whatever happened to products and services? Meo, whatever happened to products? 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:14.640 Well, because products and services make less money than betting 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:16.760 on products and services. This is this is also where 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:20.599 this is all going. So there are some real issues 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:22.840 here with private credit. 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:26.320 So we're buying and selling money that isn't real, and 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:28.720 add the absence of money that isn't real. And then 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:30.440 so what happened when there was the run on the 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:31.280 fake bank. 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:34.640 Well, that's that's kind of work because you how can 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:36.039 you do a run on a bank if there's no 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:38.640 money because you're not asking to get your money back 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:39.600 out of it because. 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:40.440 There was never any money. 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.000 Well, so here's the thing. So a lot of the 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:45.719 way that these things work sometimes like they are obviously 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:48.120 selling the loans and packages, but a lot of the 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:49.919 way that it works is that it does kind of 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:52.159 work like a normal bank, which is, I mean, instead 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.479 of being a lender, you're like an investor, but you 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:56.480 give them a bunch of your money and they give 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.120 it to these loan things. So it is just literally 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.480 a normal bank, except it's not subject to banking regulations 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.120 and it's risk here, right, So like like Apollo Capital 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:07.880 Management or whatever, it's like you give a bunch of 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:11.600 money to Apollo Capital Management, just like lower capital whatever 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:14.080 is like Apollogobal Capital is one of the big firms 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:15.680 in this thing, and then they give that money out 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:19.559 and loans and then you're basically just supposed to wait 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.600 because you know, remember last episode we talked about how 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:26.480 in the way that normal bank works, Right, there's like 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:30.960 a fundamental kind of gap right where you are putting 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:33.840 your money in as like a short term thing that 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.360 you can take out immediately, and then the bank is 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:38.480 turning the short term money into a long term loan. 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:38.840 Right. 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:40.560 It takes time for the money to grow up. 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.920 Yes, And the reason we have financial regulations is to 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:47.080 force the banks to have money on hand so that 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:50.239 if you need your money back, you can take it out. Now, 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:55.600 these banks don't have this because these are shadow banks. 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:57.840 They're the credit rs of private equity. 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.680 They're fucking, I don't know, they're like capital management firms. 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.360 They're like dude, Right, So, like a normal run on 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:07.360 the bank is like obviously the bank doesn't have one 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:09.520 hundred percent of all like I put cash in the bank. 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:11.320 We all put cash in the bank, and everyone wants 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:13.080 all their cash back. The bank doesn't have one hundred 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:14.760 percent of that cash to get that, right, It's like 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:17.120 they haven't invested, and it hasn't those loans haven't. 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:17.960 Matured yet and things like that. 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:21.920 But theoretically, if all those loans matured, that bank does 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:26.000 have all of those dollars. But the shadow bank, they're 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:29.440 selling these same loans to multiple people, So even if 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.600 everything matured properly, they don't have all of those dollars anymore. 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:34.640 Yeah, dollars don't all exist. 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.960 I mean, Jimmy fair, the bank's dollars also work like 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.760 that because the banks are also selling their loans off. 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:43.000 But well, you're saying that they were using like the 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.640 same mortgage to secure a bunch of different. 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.360 Yeah, right, so that's like, yeah, that's like a classic 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:50.480 shadow banking thing. We're actually going to get back to 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.600 that because they're doing an even dumber version of that now. 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:55.440 I'm just saying it seems like a run on the 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.160 bank would be kind of inevitable even in a minor crisis, 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:02.880 because they're too have most of the money they're pretending 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:03.959 exists yeah. 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.320 Well, but so okay, So I think what I would 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:08.320 say about that is that this is also a problem 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:10.640 for regular banks, right, Like I don't think this is 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:14.679 actually a structurally different crisis, like because like the crisis 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:16.840 here is just that the money is out in loans 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:19.520 and they they don't have it on hand. And this 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:21.920 is the structural crisis that the private credit people are doing, 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:23.800 is that their money is also out on loans, so 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:26.920 they don't have it. And a lot of these loans 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:31.800 are like seven year loans in like very risky companies. 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:33.800 So the money like really isn't. 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:37.520 There, right because that venture capital like whatever is that's 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:40.640 an inflated valuation. So you're talking about like almost ten 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:42.920 billion dollars, but it isn't it never will be, and 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:43.560 it never was. 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:44.720 Yeah. 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:46.440 Well, and the other thing that's going on too, right, 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:48.400 it is like these are supposed to be risky loans, 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:50.400 so they have a high rate of. 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.040 Return if they return. 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.319 But yes, and this and this is where this gets 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.680 not good because so the US private credit market is 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:05.200 one point three trillion dollars like under management. The global 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:09.200 market is like three point five trillion dollars of assets. 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.080 I'm not really going to go into the Chinese private 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:16.360 credit market here, because that's its own episode. But the 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.360 way that these that these companies deal with this is 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:22.080 that they have these funds, right, and then the fund 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:24.839 gives out like the loans, and they have a limit 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:26.760 to the total amount of like the percent of the 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.280 value of the fund that can be taken out at 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:32.600 one time. And that's what's been being hit. The industry 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:34.640 standard is supposed to be about five percent of the 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:37.040 fund can be withdrawn per quarter, and then after that 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.079 they just shut down redemptions. And that's what you saw 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.200 in the news because a bunch of companies, and some 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:43.480 of these companies have higher limits than are like almost 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:45.559 like eight or nine, like like ten percent, and they'll 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:47.840 stop it at like nine roughly. 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:52.040 So, more than anything, shutting down redemptions is an indicator 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:55.839 that the market has panicked, right, that the investors are 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:58.480 spooked and they want their money back because this risky 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.000 investment is now looking like a very bad choice. 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.760 Yes, but this is a real structural problem because right. 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:06.920 But like as a measurement of something, it's just like 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.680 what we're measuring is how many investors are shitting their pants. 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.079 And there's a reason they're shitting their pants, and the 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:15.160 reason they're shitting their pants is that basically all of 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.800 these firms have been eating a colossal amount of shit. 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:20.559 And the reason they're eating a colossal amount. 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:22.280 Of shit, I mean, some of it is very stupid. 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:25.880 Some of them are eating shit because they gave money 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.880 to like normal tech firms, but then now they're all 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:31.839 scared they're gonna get out competed by AI firms. Some 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.040 of them have given a bunch of money Blue Owl particularly, 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:35.800 and this is what we're gonna get into in the 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.280 episode with Ed has given a lot of money to 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.560 AI firms, which is a fucking nightmare. Great investment, Yeah, 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:42.920 incredible stuff going on. 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:44.599 I'm sure. I'm sure that's what Ed will say. Ed 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:45.920 will say that was a good investment. 0:11:46.520 --> 0:12:00.480 It's so fun. It's so fun. The main thing that 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.040 they've been eating shit on. And this is where this 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:07.040 kind of hit the mainstream because a whole bunch of 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:12.280 normal banks also ate shit on this JP Morgan ate 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:16.800 shit on this loan. So a huge amount of money 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.480 was poured into this firm called Tricolor, which we touched 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:23.600 on briefly last episode but then didn't really talk about much. 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:24.360 About what it did. 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.480 So, Okay, JP Morgan has lost one hundred and seventy 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:33.559 million dollars. Oh no, big gill Yeah, which and it's 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.200 fun It's funny because like the JP Morgan CEO were like, yeah, 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.600 we kind of ate shit on this, and also their 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:40.960 CEO gave this quote where he was like, where there's 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:44.479 one cockroach, there's probably more, which is like an extremely 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:50.120 normal thing for the finance kind of saying about the market. 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:53.920 Haven't we have an infestation of accidentally losing one hundred 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:55.120 and seventy million dollars? 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:59.240 Yeah, I mean it's not great, but like in the 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.440 grand scheme of things, right, like JP Morgan does have 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:07.120 four trillion or something dollars under management. 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.560 Right, But if he's saying, if there's one cockroach, there's more, yeah, 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.000 Usually if you have one cockroach, you have one hundred cockroaches. 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.199 So if you have one hundred, one hundred and seventy 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:16.120 million dollar fuck. 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:20.320 Ups, yes, and that's not great, right. And like Barclays, 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.320 which is the very sort of like prestigious British bank, 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.440 which also ate shit for doing this kind of stuff. 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:27.800 Two two thousand and eight also lost like one hundred 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:34.400 million pounds what's interesting about this specific one is this firm, Tricolor, 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:38.080 is a subprime auto loan company. 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:42.480 Oh, that's a phenomenal business model, Molly. 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.120 So they're responsible for the Nissan Ultima. 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:54.079 Yeah, this is that this is what is known as 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:58.040 an idea that could not possibly have gone right. It's 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:02.000 very funny because when you read the stuff from Tricolor, 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.199 they're all like, oh, we're trying to like help people 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:08.520 who are like underserved in markets who need cars. 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:13.640 Oh so, but here's the thing about a shitty auto 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:17.440 loan is you know, right, you are serving an underserved community. 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:19.120 You are serving people with bad credit who might not 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.080 otherwise be able to get a car. But you're serving 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:24.840 them by fucking them. Yes, and this is what you 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.240 can tell. Yeah, they they know that they're lying about this, right, 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:29.640 it's just so evil. 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.880 Yeah, And like this is all downstream of you know, 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:35.760 this is all downstream with the fact that we've built 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:38.160 our cities around cars, right, And we built our cities 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:41.840 around cars specifically, and this is a really fun thing. 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.360 We built our cities around cars specifically because we had 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:49.080 created so much manufacturing capacity after World War Two that 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.480 like Ford and General Motors had like pumped into that. 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:55.080 They were like, we need a fucking way to make 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:57.480 money off of all of this. And this is also, 0:14:57.560 --> 0:14:59.680 by the way, why we did the Marshall Plan, like 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:02.440 we rebuilt Europe to sell cars to them. 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.760 It's this terrible snowball of like induced demand and then 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:07.920 dealing with that and then the fallout of that, and yeah, 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:11.440 trying to reorganize from that. Yeah, and we have destroyed 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:12.240 the world with this. 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:13.320 It rocks. 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:14.120 Thank you, Henry Ford. 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:14.920 It's so good. 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:15.600 It's so good. 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.400 We have literally like Earth is fucked because of this. 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.160 This is like one of the largest engines of global 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:23.800 climate change is the fact that we had all these 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:26.560 fucking factories after World War Two and these companies didn't 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:27.480 want to eat shit on them. 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:29.400 So now so everybody needs a car, but they can't 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:31.640 afford one. So now we have a fake bank doing 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:33.000 fake fucking auto loans. 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:33.480 Yep. 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.080 Who By the way, and I kind of emphasize this enough, right, 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:39.560 The hole that we are in here is that there 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.000 is in theory, if you're gonna be running a market economy, 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:47.160 there is like room in it for Hey, this person 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:49.960 has a long shot but good business idea, and we 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:51.000 need to get the money. 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:54.160 Sure, Like there's nothing wrong with the idea of loans. 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:56.160 Yeah, but if your whole. 0:15:55.960 --> 0:16:00.000 Business model is exploiting people who need loans, yeah. 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.000 But this is you know, this is going one layer 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:05.120 up from like this subprime model loan company. 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:05.360 Right. 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:09.320 The problem that we're going to hit with all of 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:14.560 these private credit firms is that they're giving loans to 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:15.880 just this shit. 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:17.080 Right. 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:19.960 The things that they're giving high risk loans to aren't 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:26.320 like interesting businesses. They're subprime auto loan companies and they're 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:30.760 like weird ai data center creation companies. Right, It's like 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:34.480 that shit. And this is this is where everything goes 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.440 to shit because you know, and it's something that actually 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.440 wasn't really reported on very much in in a lot 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.240 of the coverage on these companies eating shit. But like 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:45.880 what this company was doing was they were literally doing 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:47.320 all of the two thousand and eight stuff. 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:47.640 Right. 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:51.640 They give out these subprime loans, which they know like 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:54.080 a bunch of them are going to fail, They pull 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:57.920 them all together into these like tranches of loans, and 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:00.560 then they sell them off doing doing the secure stuff 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:03.960 we talked about last time, and again this is literally 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.400 exactly how the subprime mortgage crisis worked, except we're doing 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:12.320 it with auto loans. It seems a little bit more evil. Yeah, 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.480 And they're doing this thing right. They're doing the thing 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:17.639 that we saw with the housing loans, where the same 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:22.240 card is collateral for multiple of these loans. And the 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:25.240 reason they're doing this right is that this company, Tricolor, 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:29.439 their entire business model is trying to borrow more money 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:31.720 from banks so that they can send out more of 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:33.919 these shitty auto loans so they can then sell that 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:38.000 stuff back. And so they're also like heavily leveraged, right 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:41.479 because they're they're taking out like every single loan they 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.119 can possibly do. They're doing instruments so that they're the 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.760 collateral on the loans that they are taking. So they 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:48.600 take that money and give out more of these shitty 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.800 auto loans. The collateral on that is multiple of the 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:52.760 shitty auto loans. 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:55.120 I mean, I would say it's a house of cards, 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.399 but like, ye, it's not even it's not even that 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:00.880 it's imaginary. It's just it's h like the bottom row 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:02.920 on this house of cards is just your imagination. 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:05.840 Yeah, it's it's wildly coyote running off the cliff and 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:07.800 he's just sitting there and as long as his feet 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:11.679 are moving, no one realizes that that like, wait, hold on, 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:13.680 this is the This is literally the fakest thing I've 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:16.760 ever seen. And then it goes under and this is 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.680 a shit show. That's the only possible outcome, the only 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:21.600 possile way it could have one under is like we've 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.400 we've done this before, we all washed two thousand and eight. 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:26.880 But there's not like an ideal version of this where 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:27.840 it works. 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.960 This can only not work. Yeah, it's insane. 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.720 It's like, why are we doing because there was one 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:36.720 year where it made a billion dollars? 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.320 Right, Buying Ponzi schemes are really profitable the first year. 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.000 Right, right, that's like that's the thing, right. 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.600 It really it works out really good for the first guy. 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.120 Yeah, And like like part of what's going on here 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.879 too is you know, like and this is some of 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:54.720 the stuff that caused the original bubble. But like we 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:57.919 have this era like the the early twenty twenties and 0:18:57.960 --> 0:18:59.920 like late twenty tens that's like the zero fed in 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:02.280 just rate errow, right, where like it is basically just 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:05.639 free to borrow money, and so there's just all of 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:09.320 this money slashing around that there's nothing to invest into. 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:15.480 This fuels all sorts of just like heinous shit, right, 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.199 because there's suddenly just like all of these pools of 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:20.240 capital with like nothing to invest in, and so they're 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:24.520 investing it in like defense companies and like Palanier and shit, 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:25.080 like that. 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:26.840 Is this why we got stuff like the juice. 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:29.959 Ro Yeah, but that's like the everything right is like no, 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:32.720 but like like like the JUICEO thing is like legitimate. 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.040 Venture capital was just like pouring money into stuff that 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.520 was just like not fucking real. Yeah you could, you 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:38.880 could juice fruit a huh. 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:40.440 And like like this is you know, I talked about 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.840 this on a different episode about venture capital, and like 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.040 the way that it's done tech fascistm right, was eventually 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:49.560 they started putting that money into like building the material 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:51.840 basis for like a tech fascist state. And that's what 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:53.520 they've been doing in sort of I. 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:55.879 Kind of wish they stuck to their cocaine ideas. 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:56.080 Like juice ero. 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:59.800 Yeah, that was a better more fun than fascism. No, 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:02.760 it's more fun than like turning every single door in 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:06.320 every single car in San Francisco into a surveillance machine 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:10.879 and then like going in and like basically cooing governments 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:15.560 and yeah, but on the sort of like pure financial 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:17.560 end of this, you get all of these companies that 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:21.040 are just pouring all of this money into there's those 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:24.000 layers of this too, right where like you know, if 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.840 you're like like JP Morgan, which is like an actual bank, 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.720 right one, Yeah, yeah, the real one is like pouring 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:34.200 money into these like into these like shadow banks, right 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.239 because they're they're chasing a high rate of return. And 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:39.280 this is like what happened in two thousand and eight 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.000 was like there everyone was like, oh, these bonds have 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:44.400 a really high rated return, the mortgage rack securities. And 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:49.000 now we've reached the point where I think, God where 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.200 this is the most recent news from this and Molly, 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:58.520 I'm just gonna read you the thing from Reuters quote 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:02.439 JP Morgan, Chase, Barclays and other Wall Street banks have 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:08.600 started trading credit default swaps linked to flagship private credit 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:13.199 funds run by Blackstone, Apollo Global Management, and Aris Managements, 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:15.360 the Financial Times reported on Friday. 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.720 And that's a good idea for them to do. 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:23.200 Oh this is really fun because now what we're doing 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.879 is they're now opening the markets to bet on these 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:27.480 things to fail. 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:43.159 Ray, I just I don't understand why so much of 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.960 the economy is based on these bets that bad things 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:51.760 will happen. Yeah, it's like if everything collapses, some guys 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.120 are gonna get so rich. If a thousand people get 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.640 their cars repossessed, one guy gets so rich. Like that's 0:21:58.640 --> 0:21:59.600 not a great way to run an. 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:03.600 Economy, you know. John Mayard Kines a guy who is 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:07.879 I would argue responsible for this. This is his fault 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:10.879 for like stabilizing the capitalist economies in the middle of 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:14.680 the Great Depression. But Canes is like a welfare state guy, 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:18.440 but he's also a capitalist. And he has this line 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.120 about how, like the economy shouldn't be run by a casino, 0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:24.080 to which I would be like, okay, Canes, but like. 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:25.720 The economy is a casino. 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:26.080 Yeah. 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:26.920 It's like it's like, this. 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:29.439 Is your fault for not being willing to like not 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:32.520 have a market economy, right, Like, like we could, we 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:37.399 could achieve the dream of not having your economy be 0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:39.399 run by a casino. This is a thing that you 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:41.560 could do. It's just that you can't. 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:43.000 Was a youth before. 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:45.600 I don't think he realized that, like we literally do 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:45.960 have a. 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:49.639 Casttell one kind of did, right, because it's it's not 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:50.880 a euphemism anymore. 0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:54.600 I'm going to necromans him and tell him about polymarket. 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:57.400 Oh yeah, he he would lose his mind about polymarket. 0:22:57.440 --> 0:22:59.600 But like, like he's watching people just like betting on 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:01.920 stock right, and he's watching a bunch of people. 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:04.040 Have the Ouiji board and tell that bitch about college. 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:06.320 Well you know this, this this is like we're going 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:08.320 back in time and showing him Calshi and he's like, 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:10.800 oh fuck, okay, I'm like I am now again. I 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:13.399 am now against the market as an idea. We cannot 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:16.199 let this come to pass. But like you know this, 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:19.960 this this has been like a known issue with the 0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:22.440 market as a system for a long time. But it's 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:25.520 a problem because in theory you could try to go 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:28.880 through and like regulate this stuff, but like investment is 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.400 just gambling to some extent, right, And when you talk 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:35.840 to the people who believe in this stuff, they're like, well, no, 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:39.320 you can't have stock markets without sort of equities markets, 0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:41.639 and you can't have these things without the ability to 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:45.200 bet on it. And I would say, okay, well don't 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:48.880 have it then, Like I think this is a really 0:23:48.920 --> 0:23:51.879 simple solution. But you know, these people are like, no, no, no, no. 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:54.439 In order to mention a capital's economy, you must it 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:57.240 must be possible for a bunch of people to be 0:23:57.359 --> 0:23:59.800 placing bets on the companies that give money to some 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:01.560 I'm auto loan companies failing. 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:04.320 I guess that's the point where like I get off 0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:05.920 the train where you say, well, in order to maintain 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:08.280 a capitalist economy, and I'm like, yeah, exactly, dog, I. 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:10.680 Don't want to do that, and like, this is why 0:24:10.720 --> 0:24:13.960 this is a terrible idea, Like it's it's a bad 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:16.479 idea for first principles, and we're all living in like 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:19.160 the nightmare healthscape of this being a bad idea. 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:21.359 Yeah, so the movie that's maybe that's why I can't 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:24.679 get it, because this does make some kind of sense 0:24:24.720 --> 0:24:27.199 to like an evil guy who wants it to be 0:24:27.320 --> 0:24:29.720 this way, but I don't want it to be this way. 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:33.199 Yeah. Well, and I very deliberately I went and I 0:24:33.240 --> 0:24:35.320 went into when I was learning economics and when I 0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:37.640 was learning political economy from the perspective of like, okay, 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:42.399 how do you destroy this right and this part, this 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:45.359 part seems fragile. Yeah, but it's like one of these 0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:47.040 things where it's like, okay, this is going to break 0:24:47.040 --> 0:24:47.560 on its own. 0:24:48.040 --> 0:24:49.920 But I guess the problem is is it does keep 0:24:49.960 --> 0:24:53.280 breaking on its own. It's just that we keep bailing 0:24:53.320 --> 0:24:56.800 it out and reconstructing it, propping up the house built 0:24:56.840 --> 0:24:57.359 on sand. 0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:01.360 Yeah, and that's the part, or you know, like this 0:25:01.400 --> 0:25:04.760 is a thing where the intervention of masses of people 0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:09.280 onto the stage of history has to happen. Where if 0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:11.080 you want this to not be the way that the 0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:13.240 system works when it breaks down, you have to be 0:25:13.400 --> 0:25:15.840 organized enough to be like, no, fuck this, We're not 0:25:15.880 --> 0:25:18.320 going to sacrifice all of our lives to reopen the casino. 0:25:18.880 --> 0:25:21.399 We are going to either tear the casino down or 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:23.760 turn the casino into like housing or whatever. 0:25:24.119 --> 0:25:26.240 So when there was this run on the fake banks 0:25:26.760 --> 0:25:28.960 and they stopped it, what happened after that? I guess 0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:30.760 because that was my original question, right, It's like, what 0:25:30.760 --> 0:25:32.399 does the run on a fake bank even look like 0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:32.800 or do? 0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:35.879 Yeah? So basically what happened is that they just like 0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:38.879 stopped the redemptions and everyone got really really pissed off. 0:25:38.880 --> 0:25:41.359 But there's not that much they can do about it because. 0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:42.880 Because I'm sure that was in the terms and conditions 0:25:42.920 --> 0:25:45.679 whenever they signed up to do financial crimes together. 0:25:46.320 --> 0:25:49.720 Yeah. And what's been happening now though, is that this 0:25:49.760 --> 0:25:52.080 is this has been spreading kind of panic about just 0:25:52.480 --> 0:25:54.000 I don't know, they would call it like the asset 0:25:54.000 --> 0:25:54.840 class in general. 0:25:55.280 --> 0:25:57.520 Oh, like, maybe it wasn't a good idea to invest 0:25:57.560 --> 0:25:59.080 all your money into this fake product. 0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:01.399 No, it was, in fact a terrible idea. And this 0:26:01.840 --> 0:26:03.840 is this is, this is I think why we're we've 0:26:03.880 --> 0:26:06.639 mismanaged your client's funds. Yeah, and this this is I 0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:09.240 think why we're starting to get the like Blackrock fucking 0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:13.760 credit default swaps, right, because the market is being like, oh, hey, 0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:15.879 all these people are pissed off about the fact that 0:26:15.920 --> 0:26:19.919 we designed our unhinged private credit shadow banking system in 0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:21.600 such a way that you can't get your money out 0:26:21.640 --> 0:26:23.480 of it. What if we capitalize on that by letting 0:26:23.520 --> 0:26:28.120 people bet on it? And that's that's good. So right 0:26:28.160 --> 0:26:31.080 now we're in this kind of limbo world and this 0:26:31.119 --> 0:26:33.280 is this is this is the entire global economy, right. 0:26:34.160 --> 0:26:38.879 Everyone is sitting here pretending like the apocalypse isn't happening. 0:26:39.280 --> 0:26:41.560 And that's the basis of the entire economy. I mean, 0:26:41.560 --> 0:26:42.919 what am I supposed to do about it? 0:26:43.359 --> 0:26:43.600 Yeah? 0:26:43.640 --> 0:26:44.840 But it's like, you know, but there's there's there's a 0:26:44.840 --> 0:26:47.760 difference between you and us doing this and the people 0:26:47.760 --> 0:26:49.040 who have all of the money in the world who 0:26:49.080 --> 0:26:51.920 are sitting there pretending that like there's like some very 0:26:51.960 --> 0:26:54.840 easy way out of this war that we're that we're 0:26:54.880 --> 0:26:57.240 waging as lebron right, and that it's not going to 0:26:57.320 --> 0:27:00.639 just keep going even though there's no good way to 0:27:00.680 --> 0:27:04.000 get a ceasefire. And you know, like no one, no 0:27:04.040 --> 0:27:05.480 one in charge of the US as any idea what 0:27:05.520 --> 0:27:07.520 they're doing. They're they're they're in some ways, they're they're 0:27:07.520 --> 0:27:09.800 doing the strategy they did in like the lockdown phase 0:27:09.800 --> 0:27:11.040 of the pandemic, where they're. 0:27:10.880 --> 0:27:12.400 Just waiting for it to burn itself out. 0:27:12.680 --> 0:27:14.480 Yeah, where they're like, Okay, well we're going to ask 0:27:14.480 --> 0:27:15.440 for a bunch of money. 0:27:15.480 --> 0:27:18.000 But when you do that with the global economy. 0:27:17.880 --> 0:27:21.160 Yeah, right, And like I had a friend who described 0:27:21.200 --> 0:27:23.000 it as like the fundamental problems that these people are 0:27:23.000 --> 0:27:25.520 incentivized to just think that everything will keep going right 0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:26.720 for them because. 0:27:26.480 --> 0:27:29.720 It has because eventually it will right, they'll be fine. 0:27:30.080 --> 0:27:33.480 Yeah, But like eventually there's a point where that runs out, 0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:39.160 and when it hits there's going to be this sort 0:27:39.160 --> 0:27:42.359 of chilling discovery that like, oh yeah, the entire last 0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:45.920 like fifteen years of their sort of being an economy 0:27:45.960 --> 0:27:52.200 has been this like weird tech capitalist mirage, and once 0:27:52.280 --> 0:27:55.760 that fails, we I guess we're already in the time 0:27:55.760 --> 0:27:56.400 of monsters. 0:27:56.880 --> 0:28:00.280 So whoo oh. 0:28:00.560 --> 0:28:04.600 I don't have any other marketable skills. You can't collapse. 0:28:04.640 --> 0:28:05.520 I'm a podcaster. 0:28:06.640 --> 0:28:12.080 Yeah. Hum, well, this has been it could happen here 0:28:12.920 --> 0:28:17.199 it did I learn anything? I don't know, honestly, this 0:28:17.359 --> 0:28:20.080 is just they're doing it all again, and it's even 0:28:20.160 --> 0:28:22.680 dumber this time. Oh god. 0:28:22.800 --> 0:28:25.000 Yeah, at least there were houses last time. Now there's 0:28:25.040 --> 0:28:25.920 not even a no. 0:28:25.920 --> 0:28:29.040 Now there's a problem. Shitty auto loans. Mollie. Where can 0:28:29.080 --> 0:28:30.960 people find your very very lovely show. 0:28:31.480 --> 0:28:34.480 You can find me wherever you get your podcast, you 0:28:34.480 --> 0:28:38.600 can subscribe to my show, Weird Little Guys. It's fun, 0:28:38.760 --> 0:28:42.040 you'll like it. Yeah. I'm in the middle of a 0:28:42.080 --> 0:28:45.040 series right now about a segregationist attorney who loved the 0:28:45.080 --> 0:28:47.600 Confederacy so much that he built a twenty five foot 0:28:47.600 --> 0:28:51.240 tall Confederate monument out of old bathtubs. It's fun, you'll 0:28:51.240 --> 0:28:52.160 love it. 0:28:52.200 --> 0:28:56.640 Does he blow up a school bus? This is fine, No. 0:28:56.560 --> 0:28:58.960 But he did go to YMC a night YMC a 0:28:59.200 --> 0:29:02.320 Night Last, which is a night law school through the 0:29:02.400 --> 0:29:05.000 YMCA in Nashville, so that he could get better at 0:29:05.080 --> 0:29:06.000 doing segregation. 0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:07.400 Like he wasn't a lawyer. 0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:09.200 And then in mid life he was like, I were 0:29:09.240 --> 0:29:11.840 go to law school at night so he could do 0:29:12.080 --> 0:29:14.040 busing cases, so he could take bussing cases. So he 0:29:14.040 --> 0:29:16.120 didn't blow any buses up, but he did blow up. 0:29:16.040 --> 0:29:18.040 A lot of people's lives. 0:29:18.040 --> 0:29:22.960 Great, but that great anyway, check out We're little guys. 0:29:23.160 --> 0:29:26.200 Yeah, And if you want to stop there from being 0:29:26.240 --> 0:29:30.000 both we're little guys and also having our economy be 0:29:30.120 --> 0:29:34.760 run on betting on funny money, go like organize a union, 0:29:35.480 --> 0:29:38.640 or like join your local affinity group, or start doing 0:29:38.640 --> 0:29:43.720 food not bombs, or do what literally literally do anything, 0:29:45.400 --> 0:29:49.800 because if we do nothing, we will continue to live 0:29:50.640 --> 0:29:53.479 in the world of the segregation lawyer who build statues 0:29:53.480 --> 0:29:57.680 out of bathtubs, and also the subprime auto loan defaults. 0:29:58.120 --> 0:29:59.680 At least go outside and take a walk. 0:30:00.440 --> 0:30:12.920 Yeah. 0:30:13.680 --> 0:30:18.120 The National Geographics Encyclopedia says that indigenous refers to people 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:21.760 or objects that are native to a certain region or environment, 0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:25.400 whether they grow there, live there, or produced there, or 0:30:25.480 --> 0:30:29.760 occur naturally there. When it comes to flora and fauna, 0:30:29.840 --> 0:30:33.040 they are considered indigenous to an ecosystem when they haven't 0:30:33.080 --> 0:30:37.680 been introduced through human intervention or manipulated by human cultivation. 0:30:38.840 --> 0:30:41.960 Over millions of years, these living things have become well 0:30:42.000 --> 0:30:46.960 suited to their habitats, carefully adapted to the region's soil, climate, 0:30:47.040 --> 0:30:50.680 and food web. Or when it comes to people, it 0:30:50.720 --> 0:30:54.640 can be some confusion about what it means to be indigenous, 0:30:55.400 --> 0:30:59.120 especially when it comes to questions of land rights, autonomy, 0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:04.160 and a rapria. Most people understand that Native American nations 0:31:04.160 --> 0:31:09.240 and Aboriginal Austragulians are indigenous, but some might then ask, well, 0:31:09.560 --> 0:31:13.760 if indigenous means originating from a place, then aren't all 0:31:13.800 --> 0:31:17.840 holesapiens indigenous to Africa? Why should one group's claim of 0:31:17.840 --> 0:31:21.960 indigena and you take precedence over any other. This would 0:31:21.960 --> 0:31:27.040 be asked in more or less good faith, and so 0:31:27.080 --> 0:31:29.760 others may ask the question, well, if a group occupies 0:31:29.800 --> 0:31:33.880 a region for several generations, does that then make them indigenous? 0:31:34.640 --> 0:31:37.800 White Americans indigenous if their family has been there since 0:31:37.800 --> 0:31:42.000 they found in the United States, French people indigenous to France, 0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:46.120 and if so does that somehow justify their xenophobia to 0:31:46.160 --> 0:31:50.680 water refugees and some weird reactionary corruption of declonial rhetoric. 0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:55.200 Speaking of corruptions of de colonial rhetoric, some Zionists claim 0:31:55.280 --> 0:31:58.480 that Jewish people as a whole are indigenous to Palestine 0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:03.080 in some twisted perversion of land back, while Zionism itself 0:32:03.280 --> 0:32:07.200 has long understood itself as a colonial project meant to 0:32:07.200 --> 0:32:10.800 displace and eliminate the indigenous inhabitants of past Die from 0:32:10.800 --> 0:32:15.520 its very beginning. Some white nationalists also argue that settler 0:32:15.560 --> 0:32:19.560 columnalism was really no different than any other conflict between 0:32:19.600 --> 0:32:23.360 indigenous people, So what does it even matter? Might mix 0:32:23.520 --> 0:32:28.400 right among? Generations of marginalized groups have been struggling to 0:32:28.440 --> 0:32:34.480 retain their social, cultural, economic, and political sovereignty and achieved justice, reparations, 0:32:34.720 --> 0:32:39.160 liberation after centuries of oppression and attempted annihilation. We need 0:32:39.200 --> 0:32:43.680 to stand in informed solidarity. Thus it is vital for 0:32:43.800 --> 0:32:49.120 us to understand what it means to be indigenous. Welcome 0:32:49.160 --> 0:32:53.280 take it up here. I'm Andrew Sage Andrewism on YouTube 0:32:53.560 --> 0:32:54.840 and I'm here again. 0:32:54.720 --> 0:32:59.920 With Miir Wong, the other host of this podcast. 0:33:00.400 --> 0:33:04.320 Yes, and we are here to discuss two approaches to 0:33:04.440 --> 0:33:08.920 understand and indignity. Obviously, this is not the final word 0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:13.960 on the matter, but just one perspective that I've drawn 0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:19.120 primarily from the work of North American Indigenous authors, namely 0:33:19.240 --> 0:33:23.680 Tayaki Alfred, Jeff Conticel, and Robin Wall Kimera. So you know, 0:33:23.760 --> 0:33:25.560 keep that in mind as we proceed. There may be 0:33:25.680 --> 0:33:30.040 other positions and perspectives and indignity coming from other groups, 0:33:30.400 --> 0:33:33.680 other people, and so I believe there are two principle 0:33:34.240 --> 0:33:38.600 highly overlapping ways that indignity can be defined or interpreted. 0:33:39.400 --> 0:33:42.280 One is as an identity formed as part of a 0:33:42.280 --> 0:33:46.680 colonial relationship, and two as an identity rooted in a 0:33:46.720 --> 0:33:52.120 relationship to police. I believe that each definition is incomplete 0:33:52.160 --> 0:33:55.760 without the other. But by understanding and synthesizing each notion 0:33:56.040 --> 0:34:00.640 of indigenousness, we can better ground our approach dec organization 0:34:00.880 --> 0:34:05.720 and social revolution. So let's start with indignity as identity 0:34:05.800 --> 0:34:09.320 rooted in a relationship to place, whether it be physical 0:34:09.440 --> 0:34:13.080 as with land, social as with community, or cultural as 0:34:13.120 --> 0:34:17.880 with culture. As indigenous relationship to the land must be 0:34:18.000 --> 0:34:21.080 reciprocal with give and take, base on a view of 0:34:21.080 --> 0:34:23.400 the land and water as a gift that must be 0:34:23.480 --> 0:34:29.440 cared for over generations. According to Honotiony mythology, as recounted 0:34:29.440 --> 0:34:32.399 by Robin Wild Kimra in braidin Sweet Grass, the mother 0:34:32.480 --> 0:34:36.080 goddess Skywoman came to the land as an immigrant from 0:34:36.120 --> 0:34:40.480 the heavens, but became indigenous by listening to the land, 0:34:40.960 --> 0:34:43.799 learning from other species to understand how to live on it, 0:34:44.160 --> 0:34:47.040 given as she received, and caring for the earth and 0:34:47.040 --> 0:34:49.480 its keepers for the sake of those who would inherit 0:34:49.520 --> 0:34:53.480 it when she passed on. Land is identity, it is 0:34:53.520 --> 0:34:57.160 ancestral connection, It is pharmacy, it is library, and it 0:34:57.200 --> 0:35:00.239 is home, the source of all the sustains and the 0:35:00.280 --> 0:35:03.920 sacred ground upon which those would observe their responsibility to boot. 0:35:04.719 --> 0:35:07.319 So by this understanding, it can be said that indigenity 0:35:07.520 --> 0:35:11.880 is born out of land connection and established through observation 0:35:12.160 --> 0:35:17.040 and relationship. Indigenous peoples have historically been mobile, either by 0:35:17.120 --> 0:35:20.560 choice or by force, but regardless of where they might 0:35:20.600 --> 0:35:24.560 find themselves quote unquote whole land or not, even if 0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:28.040 there were other indigenous peoples in their new environments, as 0:35:28.080 --> 0:35:31.520 long as they observe the processes and ceremonies of generational 0:35:31.680 --> 0:35:36.200 relationship building based on mutual respect, understanding, and love for 0:35:36.280 --> 0:35:40.520 the land in common, they remained indigenous. So then the 0:35:40.640 --> 0:35:44.640 question may arise, why aren't settlers indigenous to place if 0:35:44.680 --> 0:35:47.799 their family has lived in the land for generations. The 0:35:47.920 --> 0:35:53.719 answer lies in relationship. Settler society as a whole is 0:35:53.800 --> 0:35:58.200 based on an extractivist capitalist relationship with the land. Focus 0:35:58.280 --> 0:36:02.280 are exploiting the land and it's now natural resources. Without 0:36:02.360 --> 0:36:05.120 a relationship with the land that extends the reference to 0:36:05.320 --> 0:36:10.000 a deeper understanding of its complex interdependence, settler society can 0:36:10.040 --> 0:36:13.680 never become indigenous to place. Of course, it goes without 0:36:13.719 --> 0:36:17.400 saying that not every indigenous group or indigious practice is 0:36:17.640 --> 0:36:22.840 perfectly sustainable. Some have been rather destructive and even speciocidal, 0:36:23.239 --> 0:36:27.200 particularly when they have recently moved into a place, as 0:36:27.239 --> 0:36:30.560 we could see in North American prehistory. But if we 0:36:30.600 --> 0:36:33.680 are to work with this definition to conceive of being 0:36:33.719 --> 0:36:37.160 indigenous as something based and cultivating a long term relationship 0:36:37.200 --> 0:36:41.120 to place, then indignity must be contingent on maintaining the 0:36:41.120 --> 0:36:46.640 health and longevity of that relationship. Without community, they cannot 0:36:46.640 --> 0:36:49.880 be indignity. Much like the trees in a forest are 0:36:49.920 --> 0:36:55.040 interconnected via subterranean networks of microreze which enable them to 0:36:55.080 --> 0:36:58.560 share resources and survive as a whole. In order to 0:36:58.600 --> 0:37:02.680 be indigenous to place, community must exist sustain that web 0:37:02.719 --> 0:37:06.439 of reciprocity with the land so that all may flourish. 0:37:07.080 --> 0:37:10.520 Indigenaity to place extends to culture as well, which is 0:37:10.760 --> 0:37:14.680 deeply tied to the land it develops on. Such practices 0:37:14.760 --> 0:37:19.080 should be reciprocal, as ceremonies create communities, and communities create 0:37:19.080 --> 0:37:23.280 ceremonies as well as organic not appropriate in existing cultural 0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:28.360 celebrations or tending toward commercial. Our social fabric has become 0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:32.200 withered and fragmented by the peace of modern life, leaving 0:37:32.280 --> 0:37:35.719 little room for ceremonies outside of religion or rights of 0:37:35.760 --> 0:37:39.799 personal transitions such as birth these weddings and funerals, but 0:37:40.040 --> 0:37:43.120 ceremonies and the shared emotions they generate are part of 0:37:43.160 --> 0:37:47.520 what builds community. When we gather for graduations, for example, 0:37:47.960 --> 0:37:51.880 a sense of pride, relief, nostalgia, and excitement builds in 0:37:51.880 --> 0:37:55.800 the social atmosphere, hopefully fuel in the confidence and strength 0:37:56.120 --> 0:37:58.680 of those who are going on to pursue the rest 0:37:58.719 --> 0:38:02.200 of their lives. But Kimura wants us to imagine standing 0:38:02.239 --> 0:38:05.400 by a river flooded with those same feelings as the 0:38:05.440 --> 0:38:09.960 salmon marched into the auditorium of the estuary. The indigenous 0:38:09.960 --> 0:38:14.240 to police means cultivating cultural ceremonies that on other land 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:17.719 and all the cycles and seasons of life within it. 0:38:18.560 --> 0:38:22.480 What are your thoughts on that interpretation or approach to indigenousy. 0:38:23.440 --> 0:38:28.440 I think there's a lot there that's interesting. I think 0:38:28.440 --> 0:38:31.200 I'm getting a better sense of what you were saying 0:38:31.239 --> 0:38:33.600 at the beginning when you were like, this probably needs 0:38:33.600 --> 0:38:37.759 to be synthesized with the definition that's also about like 0:38:38.440 --> 0:38:42.400 a relationship to colonialism. Yeah, but you know, there's some 0:38:42.440 --> 0:38:47.880 sort of fun question mark examples of like the Chinese 0:38:47.920 --> 0:38:51.759 Empire failing this where it's like like you do have 0:38:51.840 --> 0:38:53.759 a lot of stuff that's like, Okay, we're going to 0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:55.680 like build a relationship in nature, but the build a 0:38:55.719 --> 0:38:58.319 relationship in nature stuff is like we are going to 0:38:58.400 --> 0:39:00.840 clear this forest in order to build a temple that 0:39:00.960 --> 0:39:03.760 is like exactly set up on like a pentagram or whatever. 0:39:04.680 --> 0:39:08.440 So it's like, okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. 0:39:10.400 --> 0:39:12.960 We have failed in creating a relationship to the land 0:39:13.400 --> 0:39:16.120 if we are in fact just making geometry shapes. 0:39:19.880 --> 0:39:25.040 Yeah, I think empires by then nature, yeah, are going 0:39:25.120 --> 0:39:28.520 to run into some difficulties, to put it mildly, they're 0:39:28.520 --> 0:39:33.160 going to run into some difficulties with actually maintaining a 0:39:33.200 --> 0:39:36.800 reciprocal relationship with that because empires are built on extraction 0:39:37.360 --> 0:39:41.000 of people and of resources, yep. Which you're absolutely right 0:39:41.040 --> 0:39:43.719 that there has to be a synthesis of this definition 0:39:44.040 --> 0:39:49.800 with the idea of indignity as a colonial relationship. According 0:39:49.840 --> 0:39:56.040 to Taiyaki Alfred and Jeff Contis, indigenousness is an identity constructed, shaped, 0:39:56.080 --> 0:40:00.480 and lived in the politicized context of contemporary clue nalism. 0:40:01.080 --> 0:40:04.720 It is an experience oppositional to colonial societies and states, 0:40:05.040 --> 0:40:09.120 and a consciousness of struggle against such forces of colonization. 0:40:09.760 --> 0:40:13.080 No two indigenous groups are exactly alike, of course, there 0:40:13.160 --> 0:40:17.240 is a significant diversity in their cultures, contexts, and relationships 0:40:17.239 --> 0:40:20.759 with colonial forces, but they do share that struggle to 0:40:20.800 --> 0:40:25.600 survive as distinct peoples in an environment hostile to their existence. 0:40:26.640 --> 0:40:31.200 Efforts to marginalize and eradicate indigenous peoples may not always 0:40:31.280 --> 0:40:34.520 be as overt as they once were, but the historic 0:40:34.640 --> 0:40:40.600 and ongoing dispossession of indigenous peoples, the erasure of indigenous histories, geographies, 0:40:40.600 --> 0:40:45.640 and languages and the current situation of deprivation persists. Nonetheless, 0:40:46.200 --> 0:40:50.360 even so called reconciliation efforts are tainted by the reality 0:40:50.480 --> 0:40:55.440 that Indigenous people remain, as in earlier colonial eras fundamentally 0:40:55.520 --> 0:40:59.640 occupied and disempowered peoples, stripped of autonomy in their own 0:40:59.680 --> 0:41:03.960 home life and pressured into surrender and cooperation with an 0:41:04.040 --> 0:41:09.200 inherently unjust colonial order just to ensure their basic physical survival. 0:41:10.080 --> 0:41:12.960 By this understanding of indigenity, it can be said that 0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:17.239 without a colonizer, without systems in place and actions being 0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:22.160 taken to marginalize, disempower and destroy their societies in favor 0:41:22.160 --> 0:41:27.640 of a colonial replacement, there is no indigenous. Without colonialism, 0:41:28.040 --> 0:41:31.080 there would be no status of indigenous to be imposed 0:41:31.160 --> 0:41:35.400 upon the groups of peoples whose very existence and claimed 0:41:35.600 --> 0:41:40.359 land is an obstacle to that colonial endeavor. The un 0:41:40.400 --> 0:41:43.600 work In Group on Indigenous Issues drew partially from this 0:41:43.760 --> 0:41:47.320 understanding when they attempted to define indigenous peoples in nineteen 0:41:47.360 --> 0:41:52.800 eighty six. Quote Indigenous communities, peoples, and nations are those 0:41:52.840 --> 0:41:57.239 which having a historical continuity with pre invasion and pre 0:41:57.360 --> 0:42:01.720 colonial societies that develops on their territories, consider themselves distinct 0:42:01.800 --> 0:42:05.960 from other sectors other societies now prevailing on those territories 0:42:06.320 --> 0:42:10.560 or parts of them. They form at present non dominant 0:42:10.600 --> 0:42:14.160 sectors of society and are determined to preserve, develop, and 0:42:14.200 --> 0:42:18.600 transmit to future generations their ancestral territories and their ethnic 0:42:18.680 --> 0:42:22.560 identity as the basis of their continued existence as peoples 0:42:22.920 --> 0:42:26.719 in accordance with their own cultural patterns, social institutions, and 0:42:26.840 --> 0:42:31.600 legal systems. And so by this definition, the Amerindians in 0:42:31.640 --> 0:42:36.640 the Caribbean, Aboriginal Australians, Adivasis in India, Native North and 0:42:36.680 --> 0:42:47.880 South Americans, Siberians, Ainu, kurds, Assyrians, Yazidi Palestinians, Amy Sikh Sambi, Basques, Hawaiians, Maori, 0:42:48.280 --> 0:42:53.800 san Wuti, Papuans, Chams, and many many more are all 0:42:54.000 --> 0:43:08.960 indigenous peoples. But there are layers of nuance yet to 0:43:08.960 --> 0:43:13.319 be highlighted. The colonial situation is not a simple binary 0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:19.000 of indigenous and colonizer. For example, in the Americas, we 0:43:19.120 --> 0:43:24.439 have the immigrant situation and the situation of slavery. Right 0:43:24.840 --> 0:43:28.719 where Africans are concerned they were indigenous to their own 0:43:28.719 --> 0:43:34.080 homelands but displaced and enslaved under the colonial regime, they 0:43:34.120 --> 0:43:36.960 may not be indigenous to the Americas, but they were 0:43:37.000 --> 0:43:41.799 not driving settled colonial society either. In fact, historically some 0:43:41.880 --> 0:43:45.920 were actually enslaved by indigenous people as well. At the 0:43:45.960 --> 0:43:48.560 same time, there were members of the African aspora who 0:43:48.600 --> 0:43:52.399 would join existing indigenous societies and later create their own, 0:43:52.800 --> 0:43:57.280 such as the Garifuna of Saint Vincent Tranduras and belize. 0:43:57.440 --> 0:44:03.040 It's very attractive, i would say, or mentally compelling to 0:44:03.160 --> 0:44:09.480 fall into these kinds of binaries colonizer and visions. But 0:44:09.960 --> 0:44:15.200 we should not allow these constructs to pindhole picture. Yeah, 0:44:15.239 --> 0:44:17.640 And I mean this is you mentioned the Kurds earlier, right, 0:44:17.719 --> 0:44:22.880 And there's a couple of political principles that groups like 0:44:22.920 --> 0:44:24.840 the pew Id, you know, and sort of like the 0:44:24.880 --> 0:44:28.200 Kurtish Freedom Movement have had to grapple, like what of 0:44:28.239 --> 0:44:31.120 their things is grappling with Like for example, there was 0:44:31.120 --> 0:44:34.040 like huge Courtish participation in the Armenian genocide. 0:44:34.160 --> 0:44:37.000 And if you look at the Kurdish Regional government in 0:44:37.040 --> 0:44:39.360 a rock when I want to talk about the PEWID, 0:44:39.520 --> 0:44:42.640 that's like like Curtaish freedom movement in Syria in a rock, 0:44:42.760 --> 0:44:47.440 there's like the Iraqi Kurdish Regional government right, which is 0:44:47.520 --> 0:44:52.120 run by a different group, but those people, you know, 0:44:52.160 --> 0:44:53.319 and this is one of these things where like there 0:44:53.360 --> 0:44:55.200 are Kurtish people on both sides of this conflict, like 0:44:55.239 --> 0:44:58.439 that group attempted to, for example, like prevent Ezd people 0:44:58.440 --> 0:45:01.120 from returning to their homes after they were like genocided 0:45:01.160 --> 0:45:02.200 there from there. 0:45:02.040 --> 0:45:02.960 By isis right. 0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:07.040 So it's it's this, it's this thing where like all 0:45:07.080 --> 0:45:11.480 of this stuff gets kind of messy depending on like 0:45:12.520 --> 0:45:16.400 who has power in a given moment. And it's something 0:45:16.440 --> 0:45:20.680 that's to some extent fluid enough that you can on 0:45:20.719 --> 0:45:23.960 the one hand, like be experiencing a genocide and then 0:45:24.040 --> 0:45:28.640 also immediately turn around and you know, be be the 0:45:28.680 --> 0:45:33.160 Kurdish regional government and attempt to assist the genocide, to 0:45:33.200 --> 0:45:35.520 attempt to like do a genocide against the disease you 0:45:35.520 --> 0:45:36.560 can take more of their land. 0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:37.320 Yeah. 0:45:37.400 --> 0:45:38.640 But then on the other hand, you know, you have 0:45:38.680 --> 0:45:41.680 the PYD who was like backing was backing the Azids 0:45:41.840 --> 0:45:44.320 in that fight against like against the kurs regional government. 0:45:44.400 --> 0:45:48.960 So it's yeah. 0:45:48.160 --> 0:45:50.800 Yeah, I think it's very it's very easy to slip 0:45:50.840 --> 0:45:56.600 into this notion that the experience of oppression will necessarily 0:45:56.800 --> 0:46:03.400 cause you to develop cold or consistent critique of oppression. 0:46:04.320 --> 0:46:06.719 But often what we see in history is that oppression 0:46:07.560 --> 0:46:13.960 results in that group perfatuating harm down the line in 0:46:14.000 --> 0:46:18.000 other ways, either within their own group or inflicting that 0:46:18.080 --> 0:46:21.840 harm and other groups. There's something intrinsic to any group 0:46:22.280 --> 0:46:27.160 that grants them immunity from falling into those same patterns 0:46:27.400 --> 0:46:32.960 of domination, abuse, oppression, and harm. People look to the 0:46:33.000 --> 0:46:36.720 example of Israel a lot, but a less similiar example 0:46:36.800 --> 0:46:42.360 for some would be the situation that established Liberia in Africa. 0:46:42.760 --> 0:46:43.640 You know, where you. 0:46:43.719 --> 0:46:48.760 Literally had the descendants of enslave people or formerly enslaved 0:46:48.800 --> 0:46:54.880 people going on to engage in settler cunalism in the 0:46:55.040 --> 0:47:03.520 territory that became Liberia, to oppress disadvantage the indigenous populations 0:47:03.600 --> 0:47:07.040 that previously occupy those territories and well continue to occupy 0:47:07.080 --> 0:47:11.040 those territories today. They created a stratified society that placed 0:47:11.040 --> 0:47:14.600 them at the top, mirroring the very system that they 0:47:14.880 --> 0:47:15.400 had fled. 0:47:15.880 --> 0:47:17.520 Yeah, and this is the thing where it's like it 0:47:17.520 --> 0:47:21.560 doesn't mean that, you know, people like swing around on 0:47:21.640 --> 0:47:23.560 the other end and be like, well, we actually have 0:47:23.640 --> 0:47:26.680 to like maintain the colonial relationship, because like, what if 0:47:26.680 --> 0:47:30.000 these people then did colonialism on us it's like no, yeah, no, 0:47:30.600 --> 0:47:31.960 it's not no. 0:47:32.360 --> 0:47:35.560 Because you hear people making that argument with three gods 0:47:35.600 --> 0:47:38.160 to like three Palestine, right yeah, people say, oh, well 0:47:38.160 --> 0:47:40.319 then the past Indians will just spin around and do 0:47:40.320 --> 0:47:42.080 a genocide on us, so we have to do a 0:47:42.120 --> 0:47:44.160 genocide on them, Like no. 0:47:44.280 --> 0:47:46.320 Yeah, And this is actually one of the things. I 0:47:46.360 --> 0:47:47.400 think there's two angles of this. 0:47:47.719 --> 0:47:49.520 One. You see that in the US too, where people 0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:50.680 are like, well, what if we do if we do 0:47:50.800 --> 0:47:52.640 land back, then they're just going to like exterminate all 0:47:52.640 --> 0:47:54.840 the white people in the US. And it's like, no, 0:47:55.040 --> 0:48:01.920 that's that's that's what you did, like like hold on, 0:48:02.040 --> 0:48:04.840 hold time. So then you know, the second angle of 0:48:04.880 --> 0:48:08.319 this too is this becomes like a motivating factor for colonizers. 0:48:08.320 --> 0:48:10.520 And this is just something that's true historically if you 0:48:10.560 --> 0:48:13.480 look at the Bosnian genocide, right, the way that you 0:48:13.600 --> 0:48:17.160 get people to do with genocide by convincing them that 0:48:17.520 --> 0:48:19.520 the people they're doing a gedocide against are about to 0:48:19.560 --> 0:48:22.040 do a genocide against them. And you know, you see 0:48:22.040 --> 0:48:25.560 this in Bosnia, you see this Wanda. This is a 0:48:25.680 --> 0:48:29.640 very very common sort of I don't even know what 0:48:29.680 --> 0:48:33.719 you call it, like trope feels like two weeks of 0:48:33.719 --> 0:48:36.120 a word. This is a very common step in the 0:48:36.120 --> 0:48:43.160 beginning of genocide, which I don't love. Uh So you're right, 0:48:43.200 --> 0:48:48.560 of ten Mia not pro genocide more news at ten. 0:48:49.280 --> 0:48:54.279 Yeah, Yeah, it's something wanted to mention regarding I think 0:48:54.280 --> 0:48:59.239 the application of indigenity as a concept in Asia. You know, 0:48:59.280 --> 0:49:02.080 you mentioned the situation with the zds and the goods, 0:49:03.040 --> 0:49:07.480 but your city governments of places like Indonesia and India 0:49:07.520 --> 0:49:13.320 and China and Vietnam and Bangladesh not recognizing the existence 0:49:13.360 --> 0:49:17.600 of indigenous peoples within their territories yep. And these countries, 0:49:17.680 --> 0:49:20.200 like most countries in the world, did not ratify the 0:49:20.400 --> 0:49:24.600 International Labor Organization Convention one sixty nine in nineteen eighty nine, 0:49:25.120 --> 0:49:28.120 which was known as the Indigenous and Tribal People's Convention 0:49:28.400 --> 0:49:31.960 considering the rights of Indigenous peoples. The UN's Declaration of 0:49:32.000 --> 0:49:34.920 the Rights and Indigenous Peoples, passed in two thousand and seven, 0:49:35.400 --> 0:49:38.800 would however, be voted on approvally by most of the world, 0:49:39.239 --> 0:49:42.640 including the same countries that haven't recognized indigenous peoples within 0:49:42.680 --> 0:49:48.280 their borders. All four of the countries that rejected the resolution, Canada, America, 0:49:48.360 --> 0:49:51.080 Australia and New Zealand will later changed their vote in 0:49:51.160 --> 0:49:54.080 favor of the declaration of course of their own tact 0:49:54.120 --> 0:49:58.040 on interpretations and emphasies, and the declarations legally non bind 0:49:58.040 --> 0:50:00.920 in nature, as is to be expected from set the 0:50:00.920 --> 0:50:02.000 colonial societies. 0:50:02.600 --> 0:50:02.960 Yep. 0:50:03.960 --> 0:50:06.960 I'm very interested in, you know, because we do have 0:50:07.040 --> 0:50:10.920 these ethnic minorities. We do have in in case India, 0:50:10.960 --> 0:50:16.680 you have the pre Indo European groups, the tribal groups. 0:50:17.320 --> 0:50:20.680 And if you go back to the definition of indigeneity 0:50:21.280 --> 0:50:26.000 according to the UN, it speaks of groups which form 0:50:26.160 --> 0:50:30.840 at present non dominant sectors of society that are determined 0:50:30.840 --> 0:50:33.880 to preserve, develop and transmit to future generations the ancestral 0:50:33.960 --> 0:50:36.840 territories and the ethnic identity as the basis of the 0:50:36.880 --> 0:50:40.160 continued ex systems as people, et cetera, et cetera. You know, 0:50:40.200 --> 0:50:44.120 it speaks of those having historical continuancy with pre invasion, 0:50:44.200 --> 0:50:48.080 pre colonial societies that developed in their territories. They speak 0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:51.960 of groups that consider themselves distinct other sectors as societies 0:50:52.000 --> 0:50:56.120 and all prevailing on those territories. And so by this definition, 0:50:57.280 --> 0:51:02.239 I understand that people in in these Asian countries maybe like, oh, 0:51:02.280 --> 0:51:06.000 we're all from this place, right, So why does that 0:51:06.160 --> 0:51:09.120 group get this designation and additioners, so we do not, 0:51:10.080 --> 0:51:13.640 And it goes back to again a colonial relationship. It 0:51:13.680 --> 0:51:17.400 goes back to the relationship between a group and the 0:51:17.440 --> 0:51:22.319 broader society. And so it's not necessarily stripping away the 0:51:22.400 --> 0:51:25.360 fact that a particular group may be from an area, 0:51:25.960 --> 0:51:30.640 but more so speaking about how another group relates to 0:51:30.680 --> 0:51:34.040 the states in that area and the group that dominates 0:51:34.120 --> 0:51:35.280 the state in that area. 0:51:36.120 --> 0:51:37.960 Yeah, like you look this in the Chinese context, and 0:51:38.000 --> 0:51:41.440 it's like, okay, so like by the time you're like 0:51:41.640 --> 0:51:44.879 bulldozing masques and shin juan, like, I think you've gotten too, 0:51:45.880 --> 0:51:52.160 Like congratulations, you have like created a indigenous settler divide. 0:51:52.520 --> 0:51:52.759 Yeah. 0:51:53.080 --> 0:51:56.640 Also just just speaking like the context does not begin 0:51:56.760 --> 0:52:03.080 and end with European colonization and direct European administration and 0:52:03.200 --> 0:52:06.520 invasion and that kind of thing. You know, prior to 0:52:06.920 --> 0:52:12.360 these invasions, you did have the empires that were established 0:52:12.400 --> 0:52:15.560 in these areas. I mean, China was an empire quite famously, 0:52:16.440 --> 0:52:21.120 Japan was an empire. India was the home of several empires. 0:52:21.760 --> 0:52:25.319 Indonesia was the home of several empires. So while it 0:52:25.360 --> 0:52:30.480 may not be that this relation of indignity is based 0:52:31.080 --> 0:52:37.000 on the Europeans attler colonialism. There is something to the 0:52:37.160 --> 0:52:43.239 history of empire in those areas, establishing those relationships, relationships 0:52:43.239 --> 0:52:47.640 that would later be elevated in some cases by those 0:52:47.680 --> 0:52:50.680 Europeans when they would come and they would for example, 0:52:50.760 --> 0:52:53.640 select one ethnic group and elevate one ethnic group over 0:52:53.680 --> 0:52:57.239 another ethnic group, make us in ethnic group administrators and 0:52:57.520 --> 0:53:00.840 put down another ethnic group. Calcify these kind of caste 0:53:00.920 --> 0:53:04.279 systems and ethnocratic divisions. 0:53:05.200 --> 0:53:18.920 Yes, Rwanda, it's like one of the literally literally yeah, 0:53:19.440 --> 0:53:22.320 there are a lot of cases where these sort of 0:53:22.360 --> 0:53:26.279 the indigenous colonizer divides become reflective of like the way 0:53:26.280 --> 0:53:29.560 that Europeans set up past systems. Sometimes that's not true though, 0:53:30.440 --> 0:53:32.840 And one of the I think most hideous examples of 0:53:32.920 --> 0:53:35.880 this is West Papua, which we very briefly mentioned earlier, 0:53:36.120 --> 0:53:41.960 where West Papua and Indonesia are like not governed by 0:53:41.960 --> 0:53:47.360 the same colonial administration. But when Indonesia gains independence, like 0:53:47.440 --> 0:53:50.359 the government there and this is this is Sankaras government, right, 0:53:50.440 --> 0:53:54.120 this is like the nominally socialist one wants to take 0:53:54.160 --> 0:53:58.040 control of West Papua because West Papua has all of 0:53:58.040 --> 0:54:03.440 these resources and the people in West Papua don't want that, 0:54:03.760 --> 0:54:07.960 like they want to be an independence entity, but the 0:54:08.000 --> 0:54:13.120 Indonesians just roll in and invade them and you know, 0:54:13.480 --> 0:54:19.360 continue from Sukara to Sukarno. Just a unbelievably hideous series 0:54:19.400 --> 0:54:23.520 of genocides. And one of the things that's really bleak 0:54:23.640 --> 0:54:27.200 about the sort of process of decolonization is like you 0:54:27.239 --> 0:54:30.439 can see the shift in the way that these post 0:54:30.480 --> 0:54:33.839 colonial societies are talking about what colonization is and we're 0:54:33.840 --> 0:54:37.839 resistance to it, where it ceases to become about the 0:54:37.880 --> 0:54:42.080 struggle of people against the colonizing forces that oppress them, 0:54:42.080 --> 0:54:44.799 and it turns into a something that's about like the 0:54:44.840 --> 0:54:47.920 continuity of national borders. You know, you get a really 0:54:47.960 --> 0:54:50.040 bleak example of this where like people talk about like 0:54:50.080 --> 0:54:52.759 the Bandung conference, right, which is the sort of like 0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:54.319 it's supposed to be, like this is like the big 0:54:54.360 --> 0:54:58.200 thing in like pan Asian and Pan African like struggles 0:54:58.239 --> 0:55:01.279 coming together. We're like all these formally colonized nations like 0:55:01.360 --> 0:55:04.520 come together and like issue this issue a bunch of things, 0:55:04.560 --> 0:55:06.400 and it's supposed to be this big moment of like 0:55:07.320 --> 0:55:10.040 this is like the unity of post colonial societies. That's 0:55:10.040 --> 0:55:12.120 like still to this day look back on in terms 0:55:12.160 --> 0:55:14.920 of like Affroasian solidarity, like this is the big one. 0:55:15.560 --> 0:55:18.480 But one of the things that they ratified at Bandung 0:55:18.920 --> 0:55:21.279 was a very small session that no one pays any 0:55:21.280 --> 0:55:23.920 attention to, which is all of these countries put in 0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:27.680 their support for Indonesia's occupation of West Papua. 0:55:27.880 --> 0:55:28.000 HM. 0:55:28.600 --> 0:55:30.840 Eventually, I'm going to do a long thing about this. 0:55:30.960 --> 0:55:34.160 It just is a really difficult subject that tackle on 0:55:34.280 --> 0:55:38.319 has to be done very carefully. But one of the 0:55:38.320 --> 0:55:42.120 things that happens is, you know, like the West Papua 0:55:42.120 --> 0:55:44.920 WANs go to the UN and all of the states 0:55:44.920 --> 0:55:47.480 that you would normally think of as like the anti 0:55:47.480 --> 0:55:49.719 colonial states are like no, fuck you, like you belong 0:55:49.760 --> 0:55:53.160 to Indonesia. And then you get all of these other 0:55:53.200 --> 0:55:56.320 countries who are like more neutral or more US aligned, 0:55:56.320 --> 0:56:00.719 but because they're not allied with Indonesia, They're reaction is 0:56:00.760 --> 0:56:02.719 like wait, hold on, what do you mean there are 0:56:02.760 --> 0:56:06.680 black people in the Pacific A and be like holy shit, 0:56:06.880 --> 0:56:10.759 this is fucked up. But it sets this precedent that 0:56:10.840 --> 0:56:13.560 kind of like rolls on through like pan Arabism and 0:56:13.719 --> 0:56:17.600 rolls on through a lot of these decolonial movements where 0:56:18.320 --> 0:56:21.279 once you've gotten your state, it's fine to just like 0:56:21.400 --> 0:56:26.040 do horrifying repression against any other sort of ethnic group 0:56:26.480 --> 0:56:28.839 that's there, because now that now that you have your 0:56:28.880 --> 0:56:31.560 post colonial state, like, any attempt to interfere with the 0:56:31.600 --> 0:56:34.960 sovereignty of the state and change the borders, even if 0:56:35.000 --> 0:56:38.960 it's like, I don't know, you're like the West Sahara, 0:56:39.440 --> 0:56:44.600 or you know, you're like shing Johan or you're like 0:56:44.760 --> 0:56:48.560 the Kurds, right, and any attempt for those people to 0:56:48.680 --> 0:56:50.840 like get their freedom is seen as like a Western 0:56:50.920 --> 0:56:53.680 back like separatist thing instead of an anti colonial struggle. 0:56:54.560 --> 0:56:58.800 And I think that really was one of the things 0:56:58.800 --> 0:57:02.320 that was like the death now for like the post 0:57:02.320 --> 0:57:06.719 colonial movements was their willingness to just walk in and 0:57:06.880 --> 0:57:10.640 machine gun people because we want the resources that these 0:57:10.840 --> 0:57:11.839 people's lands are on. 0:57:12.640 --> 0:57:12.879 Yeah. 0:57:13.560 --> 0:57:18.080 Honestly, that brings us to the topic of decolonization. Yeah, 0:57:18.800 --> 0:57:22.160 you know, because when we think about these definitions of 0:57:22.600 --> 0:57:26.360 indignity as a clonal relationship and indignity as a relationship 0:57:26.560 --> 0:57:30.880 to land, the nature, to the environment, I think it 0:57:31.800 --> 0:57:37.320 begs the question of how we approach this process of decolonization. Yeah, 0:57:38.440 --> 0:57:43.240 how do we go about abolish in the colonizer indigenous relationship. 0:57:44.040 --> 0:57:49.600 Is it that we seek to pursue a universalization of 0:57:49.600 --> 0:57:53.840 indigenity to the former and by that process accomplish the 0:57:53.920 --> 0:57:57.760 better or is it there's some other framework or approach 0:57:57.840 --> 0:58:01.480 by which we can take on this topic of Okay, 0:58:01.480 --> 0:58:05.040 do we proceed with the with the concept of digenity 0:58:05.400 --> 0:58:09.120 or does the concept of indigenity exist as a byproducts 0:58:09.120 --> 0:58:11.720 and a representation of the system that we are trying 0:58:11.760 --> 0:58:16.440 to get Where you're from, Yeah, So, decization is commonly 0:58:16.440 --> 0:58:20.840 defined as the process of unsettain colonial power structures, whether 0:58:20.880 --> 0:58:24.080 that be through overtad and acts of enclosure by building 0:58:24.080 --> 0:58:27.840 new commons, overtad and acts of possession by reclaiming our 0:58:27.880 --> 0:58:31.840 spaces and identities, or overtain and acts of administration. 0:58:31.640 --> 0:58:32.680 Through social revolution. 0:58:33.360 --> 0:58:42.240 Social revolution is a complete transformation of our society by economy, culture, philosophy, relationships, technology, 0:58:42.560 --> 0:58:46.160 so on. It is, as anarchists would approach it, an 0:58:46.200 --> 0:58:53.360 ongoing and heterogeneous change in people's powers, drives, and consciousness 0:58:53.720 --> 0:58:57.920 through practical education, as well as a progressive breakdown and 0:58:57.960 --> 0:59:03.080 transformation of the existences and institutions alongside the building of 0:59:03.160 --> 0:59:10.800 new systems institutions, punctuated by major insurrections, ruptures, advances, that 0:59:10.960 --> 0:59:16.760 whole messy process with the aim of self liberation. Yeah, 0:59:17.040 --> 0:59:20.960 something that I've broken down as involved in confrontation with 0:59:21.080 --> 0:59:24.880 the powers that be, non cooperation with the established order 0:59:24.920 --> 0:59:30.560 of things, and the prefiguration of new social relations, institutions, infrastructure, 0:59:30.640 --> 0:59:34.080 and practices in the hered Now. If we maintain the 0:59:34.080 --> 0:59:37.840 interpretation of indignity as based in one's position in a 0:59:37.880 --> 0:59:42.680 colonial relationship, then the decolonization process will until the abolition 0:59:42.880 --> 0:59:46.160 of that relationship as the premise of identity and therefore 0:59:46.160 --> 0:59:50.320 the abolition of indigenity as a status. Colonial legacies have 0:59:50.600 --> 0:59:56.720 effectively left indigenous communities legally and politically compartmentalized and culturally, 0:59:56.840 --> 1:00:01.160 socially and spiritually weakened within the narrow parameters of the state, 1:00:01.720 --> 1:00:04.560 where they end up diverting the crucial energy necessary to 1:00:04.640 --> 1:00:09.040 confront state power and develop the process of deconalization toward 1:00:09.160 --> 1:00:13.240 mimicking the practices of the dominant non additional legal political 1:00:13.280 --> 1:00:18.800 institutions through the processes of land claims and self government. 1:00:19.360 --> 1:00:23.600 And by pursuing these strategies, I think what we notice 1:00:23.840 --> 1:00:30.160 is this tends toward a division rather than a solidarity 1:00:30.200 --> 1:00:37.400 builder division, both internally and between indigious communities where land claims, 1:00:37.440 --> 1:00:43.080 for example, clash, or where certain members of a society 1:00:43.160 --> 1:00:47.600 of a community utilize their position above others in that 1:00:47.640 --> 1:00:52.000 society of community to gain certain advantages for themselves, sometimes 1:00:52.000 --> 1:00:55.720 to the detriment of that society of community. So I 1:00:55.720 --> 1:00:59.280 think any sort of a pros deconization has to account 1:00:59.320 --> 1:01:03.400 for the ways that some approaches the deconization can end up, 1:01:04.280 --> 1:01:10.320 perhaps misdirecting from a subjective perspective, the work that is 1:01:10.400 --> 1:01:17.080 necessary to dismantle the clonal order, rather than merely assert 1:01:17.400 --> 1:01:21.120 a position was in it. But this idea of indigenity 1:01:21.240 --> 1:01:25.080 via colonization is just one understanding of the team, and 1:01:26.120 --> 1:01:29.600 my approach to it is of course one subjective interpretation 1:01:29.960 --> 1:01:34.400 of that definition and where it might lead. We need 1:01:34.400 --> 1:01:37.840 to explore another approach, I think, to decononization, and one 1:01:37.880 --> 1:01:42.400 that recognizes the power and potential of indigenous relationships with 1:01:42.760 --> 1:01:47.200 the land. Now globally, the UN recognizes that indigenous peoples 1:01:47.280 --> 1:01:51.000 protect eighty percent of the world's remaining bio diversity, and 1:01:51.080 --> 1:01:54.880 scientists have shown that indigenous management practices in Brazil, Canada, 1:01:54.880 --> 1:01:58.720 and Australia provides the same level of ecosystem support and 1:01:58.760 --> 1:02:03.000 protection as any imposed protected area, which makes it abundantly 1:02:03.080 --> 1:02:08.760 clear that the colonial approach of conservation via dispossession removes 1:02:08.800 --> 1:02:13.240 the very people who take care of our most important ecosystems. 1:02:13.840 --> 1:02:17.200 I don't believe that merely building a connection with the 1:02:17.280 --> 1:02:22.000 land can make someone indigenous, but not being indigenous doesn't 1:02:22.040 --> 1:02:26.160 exclude us from aiden in the renewal of the indigenous world. 1:02:26.720 --> 1:02:30.400 Kimmer uses the example of the broad leaf planter, also 1:02:30.440 --> 1:02:34.000 known as the white Man's footprint. Despite not being indigenous 1:02:34.000 --> 1:02:36.800 to the Americas, it has become an honored member of 1:02:36.840 --> 1:02:39.920 the plant community because it lives as a good neighbor 1:02:40.400 --> 1:02:44.880 instead of as a destructive invader. While other invasive species 1:02:44.960 --> 1:02:48.960 poison the soil over around the land outcompetes indigenous species, 1:02:49.640 --> 1:02:52.720 the white Man's footprint took on a strategy of helpful 1:02:52.800 --> 1:02:56.440 co existence, even sharing some of its healing properties with 1:02:56.520 --> 1:02:59.800 those who ask of it. It is not indigenous, but 1:02:59.840 --> 1:03:05.760 it has become naturalized. To quote Chimera, being naturalized a 1:03:05.840 --> 1:03:08.479 place means to live as if this is the land 1:03:08.560 --> 1:03:11.240 that feeds you, as if these are the streams from 1:03:11.280 --> 1:03:14.400 which you drink that build your body. And fill the spirit. 1:03:15.200 --> 1:03:18.480 To become naturalized is to know that your ancestors lie. 1:03:18.320 --> 1:03:19.000 In this ground. 1:03:19.640 --> 1:03:22.640 Here you will give your gifts and meet your responsibilities. 1:03:23.400 --> 1:03:26.480 To become naturalized is to live as if your children's 1:03:26.560 --> 1:03:29.480 future matters, To take care of the land as if 1:03:29.480 --> 1:03:32.160 our lives and the lives of all of our relatives 1:03:32.200 --> 1:03:39.480 depend on it, because they do. End quote, decolonization will 1:03:39.520 --> 1:03:43.840 require us to uproot invasive, capitalist settler societies in order 1:03:43.880 --> 1:03:46.520 to rebuild in a way that treats the land like 1:03:46.600 --> 1:03:49.640 the home that we share and are responsible for. It 1:03:49.680 --> 1:03:53.680 will require us to receive an honor knowledge in the land, 1:03:54.040 --> 1:03:56.760 to care for its keepers, and to pass on that 1:03:56.840 --> 1:04:02.040 knowledge to the next generation. As always is all column 1:04:02.840 --> 1:04:03.960 to all the people. 1:04:04.800 --> 1:04:20.120 Peace, welcome to it. Could happen here a show about 1:04:20.120 --> 1:04:24.600 things falling apart between attacks on Sam Altman's home, a 1:04:24.600 --> 1:04:27.560 molotav at, a Tesla office, and a warehouse causing over 1:04:27.600 --> 1:04:31.000 half a billion dollars in damages. This past week or 1:04:31.000 --> 1:04:33.600 so has been a little snapshot of the cool Zone. 1:04:34.000 --> 1:04:37.960 I'm Garrison Davis. This episode, I'm joined by Robert Evans, Yeah, 1:04:38.000 --> 1:04:40.480 to discuss one of these events. 1:04:41.080 --> 1:04:42.720 To be very clear, we had nothing to do with 1:04:42.760 --> 1:04:45.440 either of them. The way you introduced them sounded a 1:04:45.520 --> 1:04:48.440 little bit like between you know, going to Sam Altman's 1:04:48.480 --> 1:04:49.120 house twice. 1:04:49.160 --> 1:04:50.560 It's been quite a busy. 1:04:50.360 --> 1:04:52.120 Week for us, a busy week for us here. 1:04:52.360 --> 1:04:55.680 I just wanted to be extra clear, extra clear. 1:04:56.960 --> 1:04:59.720 No, no, the cool zone, just relating to, you know, 1:05:00.200 --> 1:05:03.120 the state of American society and where it's going. Yes, 1:05:03.400 --> 1:05:07.360 but as is typical of these sorts of events, the 1:05:07.560 --> 1:05:10.880 reality and motivations of attacks like these may not be 1:05:11.000 --> 1:05:15.200 as clear cut as lee epic based praxis as one 1:05:15.360 --> 1:05:16.920 might want to imagine. 1:05:17.280 --> 1:05:20.840 Yeah, this is not a Gimli situation. You know, it's 1:05:20.840 --> 1:05:22.760 weirder than that and stupider. 1:05:23.680 --> 1:05:26.240 It is weirder. And this episode we want to talk 1:05:26.280 --> 1:05:28.760 about the Sam Altman Attacker, who is a lot weirder 1:05:28.800 --> 1:05:32.800 than what you might have expected, with a philosophical worldview 1:05:32.840 --> 1:05:36.800 downstream from the original inspirations behind the Zizians and even 1:05:36.800 --> 1:05:40.280 the intellectual interests of Luigi Mangioni to a certain extent. 1:05:40.440 --> 1:05:45.680 Ah, God, Yes, that's right, our dear sweet friends, the rationalists. 1:05:46.040 --> 1:05:51.000 A man, the alleged Altman attacker, was a college student 1:05:51.120 --> 1:05:55.080 from the Houston area whose interest in the risks of 1:05:55.560 --> 1:06:01.120 AGI artificial general intelligence turned into an obsession, which earlier 1:06:01.160 --> 1:06:05.200 this year turned self destructive. But let's go through the 1:06:05.240 --> 1:06:09.080 actual events that happened in San Francisco a few weeks ago. 1:06:09.640 --> 1:06:12.840 At around three point thirty am on April tenth, a 1:06:12.920 --> 1:06:17.200 twenty year old college student named Daniel Moranogama allegedly threw 1:06:17.240 --> 1:06:20.560 a Molotov cocktail toward the home of open AI CEO 1:06:20.680 --> 1:06:24.880 Sam Altman, hitting the top of the security gate on 1:06:24.960 --> 1:06:29.680 the driveway leading to Altman's residence. Moranogama did not get 1:06:29.720 --> 1:06:33.280 past the security gate. About an hour and a half later, though, 1:06:33.400 --> 1:06:37.080 Moronogama showed up outside the San Francisco headquarters of Open 1:06:37.160 --> 1:06:40.160 AI and tried to use a chair to break into 1:06:40.200 --> 1:06:43.200 the building through the glass doors. He was stopped by 1:06:43.200 --> 1:06:46.680 security personnel and allegedly told them that he came to 1:06:46.720 --> 1:06:50.160 the headquarters to burn it down and kill everyone inside. 1:06:51.040 --> 1:06:55.160 According to the federal affidavit, When he was arrested, officers 1:06:55.160 --> 1:06:59.160 allegedly recovered incendiary devices, a jug of kerosene, and a 1:06:59.160 --> 1:07:02.640 blue lighter, as well as what the FBI has described 1:07:02.760 --> 1:07:09.000 as an ANTIAI document. Okay, we currently do not have 1:07:09.040 --> 1:07:12.200 a copy of this document. It's only described in the 1:07:12.280 --> 1:07:15.880 criminal complaint, but this looks like it was a three 1:07:16.000 --> 1:07:20.440 part manifesto allegedly authored by Moranogama, and the first part 1:07:20.520 --> 1:07:25.160 was titled Your Last Warning, in which he states he 1:07:25.280 --> 1:07:29.880 quote killed slash, attempted to kill Sam Altman, and also 1:07:29.920 --> 1:07:32.840 writing quote if I'm going to advocate for others to 1:07:32.920 --> 1:07:35.440 kill and commit crimes, that I must lead by example 1:07:35.720 --> 1:07:39.600 and show that I am fully sincere in my message. 1:07:40.120 --> 1:07:44.160 The document then lists the names and addresses of various investors, 1:07:44.280 --> 1:07:47.360 board members, and executives of AI companies as a sort 1:07:47.360 --> 1:07:50.920 of target list. The second part of the document was 1:07:50.960 --> 1:07:54.440 titled some more Words on the matter of our impending 1:07:54.520 --> 1:08:00.800 Extinction Great, and this section discussed the purported that AI 1:08:00.920 --> 1:08:03.240 poses to humanity. And we'll get into some of those 1:08:03.240 --> 1:08:06.120 beliefs a little later on. But the third part of 1:08:06.160 --> 1:08:10.160 this three part anti AA document was a letter addressed 1:08:10.200 --> 1:08:14.240 to Altman quote if you make it, and reads in part, 1:08:14.680 --> 1:08:17.679 if by some miracle you live, then I would take 1:08:17.760 --> 1:08:20.840 this as a sign from the divine to redeem yourself 1:08:21.080 --> 1:08:24.120 on quote. Now, like I said, we do not have 1:08:24.160 --> 1:08:27.800 a copy of this manifesto in full, though the Affidavid 1:08:27.920 --> 1:08:31.559 says that Mornagama appears to have emailed similar versions of 1:08:31.560 --> 1:08:35.040 this document to people at his former college in Texas, 1:08:35.560 --> 1:08:38.760 but as of Monday four twenty, this document is still 1:08:38.800 --> 1:08:42.960 not online. But like a lot of zoomers, we do 1:08:43.040 --> 1:08:47.920 have an online footprint made up of posts from Instagram, discord, 1:08:48.040 --> 1:08:51.880 a substack blog, and even a podcast interview where Mornagama 1:08:51.960 --> 1:08:54.120 discusses his anti AI views. 1:08:54.320 --> 1:08:57.520 It's always sad when something terrible happens to a fellow podcaster. 1:08:58.840 --> 1:09:00.880 You know, I just have a I have such a 1:09:00.920 --> 1:09:03.360 broad and deep pan podcaster. 1:09:03.040 --> 1:09:04.720 Solidarity, class, solidarity. 1:09:04.800 --> 1:09:07.880 Yeah, all podcasters are good, all of them, every last. 1:09:08.479 --> 1:09:12.880 No wrongdoing has ever come behind the microphone a podcaster. 1:09:13.080 --> 1:09:15.080 No, no, no, it's a special place. 1:09:15.439 --> 1:09:15.639 Now. 1:09:15.680 --> 1:09:19.759 Back in January, back when Monona Gama was just nineteen, 1:09:20.520 --> 1:09:22.920 journalists found him through some of his posts on an 1:09:22.960 --> 1:09:26.360 anti AI discord server, and he was asked to be 1:09:26.400 --> 1:09:29.839 interviewed for this podcast about AI called The Last Invention. 1:09:31.280 --> 1:09:34.320 Our colleague Ed Zittron was also interviewed for this podcast. 1:09:34.360 --> 1:09:38.719 Actually now, he was interviewed because of his posts weighing 1:09:38.760 --> 1:09:43.639 the possibility of using violence to stop the development of AI. Now, 1:09:43.640 --> 1:09:45.640 in this interview. He says that he grew up in 1:09:45.680 --> 1:09:48.639 the suburbs his whole life and quote grew up quite 1:09:48.680 --> 1:09:52.599 close to the Internet and claims that he's been online 1:09:52.640 --> 1:09:54.920 every day starting at nine years old. 1:09:55.520 --> 1:09:55.840 Baron A. 1:09:55.880 --> 1:09:59.240 Gama explained how his political worldview had largely been shaped 1:09:59.280 --> 1:10:03.759 by YouTube, specifically debate videos on YouTube like Ben Shapiro Style, 1:10:04.479 --> 1:10:08.560 and these sorts of debate videos are what originally exposed 1:10:08.600 --> 1:10:13.160 him to views critical of AI. He says he first 1:10:13.200 --> 1:10:16.519 heard about AI though when Chad GPT came out when 1:10:16.520 --> 1:10:18.920 he was a sophomore in high school and first thought 1:10:18.920 --> 1:10:22.160 it was quote the greatest thing on earth because it 1:10:22.160 --> 1:10:26.280 would allow him to cheat on school essentially. But after 1:10:26.360 --> 1:10:30.360 watching videos debating the risks of AI and the possibility 1:10:30.439 --> 1:10:35.240 of advanced general intelligence artificial general intelligence, and the potential 1:10:35.280 --> 1:10:40.240 threat posed by this artificial superintelligence, Moronagama's views started to 1:10:40.439 --> 1:10:43.160 sour on AI. At first, he was a bit skeptical 1:10:43.640 --> 1:10:49.439 of these AI critical debates, but eventually became convinced of 1:10:49.640 --> 1:10:53.680 the AI doomer arguments and became an accolade himself. He 1:10:53.760 --> 1:10:56.760 started arguing in YouTube comments and talking with friends and 1:10:56.800 --> 1:11:00.360 family about the danger of AI. He describes himself getting 1:11:00.600 --> 1:11:04.800 annoying and quote a bit autistic about this, leading to 1:11:04.840 --> 1:11:08.679 his mom suggesting he joined an advocacy organization. He joined 1:11:08.720 --> 1:11:11.880 his group called Pause AI in twenty twenty four, which 1:11:11.880 --> 1:11:15.920 is an AI safety advocacy group that organizes online as 1:11:15.960 --> 1:11:18.800 well as some in person protests, and he was also 1:11:18.840 --> 1:11:23.000 part of a Discord server called stop AI. His username 1:11:23.120 --> 1:11:28.200 on both Discord and Instagram was but Larian underscore g hottist, 1:11:28.800 --> 1:11:32.000 in reference to the crusade against AI in the Do 1:11:32.240 --> 1:11:36.599 novels Yeah. On Instagram, his account had a collection of 1:11:36.720 --> 1:11:40.320 Instagram stories saved about the threat of AI, including a 1:11:40.360 --> 1:11:44.760 meme about living in a ven, diagram of the matrix terminator, 1:11:44.840 --> 1:11:50.639 and idiocrasy. One of these Instagram stories was a picture 1:11:50.680 --> 1:11:53.880 of a hockey stick graph showing the length of coding 1:11:53.920 --> 1:11:57.680 tasks that AI can do and how that's increasing, with 1:11:57.720 --> 1:12:01.719 the caption quote if we do nothing soon, we will die. 1:12:02.160 --> 1:12:07.599 I'm sure of that unquote. Another story contains screenshots of articles, 1:12:07.640 --> 1:12:12.000 posts and studies proclaiming that artificial general intelligence or the 1:12:12.080 --> 1:12:17.360 quote unquote singularity is already here, captioned being right all 1:12:17.400 --> 1:12:20.880 the time fucking sucks when it's about the worst things 1:12:21.040 --> 1:12:22.800 imaginable unquote. 1:12:23.200 --> 1:12:23.559 Yeah. 1:12:23.880 --> 1:12:28.560 So if his concerns about AI started around summer of 1:12:28.600 --> 1:12:30.840 twenty twenty four, by the end of twenty twenty five, 1:12:30.880 --> 1:12:34.240 those concerns grew existential, and he started spiraling Yeah. 1:12:35.040 --> 1:12:36.040 Yeah. 1:12:36.080 --> 1:12:38.760 There's a post he made on the Pause AI discord 1:12:38.880 --> 1:12:43.360 from November sixth, twenty twenty five, writing quote, we owe 1:12:43.400 --> 1:12:46.040 it to everyone who came before us, and to ourselves 1:12:46.040 --> 1:12:48.559 and to everyone we know and love and everyone who 1:12:48.640 --> 1:12:52.680 might exist someday to be stronger than that and at 1:12:52.760 --> 1:12:56.680 least die fighting if it comes to that unquote. A 1:12:56.720 --> 1:12:59.879 few weeks later, he wrote quote, we are close to midnight. 1:13:00.280 --> 1:13:04.240 It's time to actually act to this. A moderator on 1:13:04.280 --> 1:13:08.519 the server replied, advocating violence in any form is grounds 1:13:08.520 --> 1:13:09.080 for a band. 1:13:09.840 --> 1:13:14.160 This all seems like a pretty natural progression if you're 1:13:14.200 --> 1:13:17.080 following like the kind of things that the Less Wrong Crowd, 1:13:17.080 --> 1:13:19.600 which is the website run by guy named Aleezer Yeddkowski, 1:13:19.600 --> 1:13:23.439 who is like the patron saint of the Rationalists, which 1:13:23.760 --> 1:13:25.400 a huge chunk of which have become. 1:13:25.240 --> 1:13:26.240 Like AI doomers. 1:13:26.640 --> 1:13:29.280 Like a Leiser's book that came out a year or 1:13:29.280 --> 1:13:31.679 two ago is called If We Build It, Everyone dies 1:13:31.800 --> 1:13:35.439 or something like that. Yeah, and I'm surprised more of 1:13:35.439 --> 1:13:38.479 them haven't so far. Like I think it probably toxic, 1:13:38.600 --> 1:13:40.920 just people not actually believing it as much as they 1:13:41.520 --> 1:13:45.280 claim to, like online, But like if someone truly believes 1:13:45.280 --> 1:13:47.559 the stuff that crowd is saying about, how like basically, 1:13:47.640 --> 1:13:50.880 the creation of an evil god is inevitable that will 1:13:50.920 --> 1:13:53.759 seek to purge the world of humankind, Like, of course 1:13:53.840 --> 1:13:57.920 you do this, It's a really natural progression. 1:13:58.040 --> 1:13:59.960 Like Unfortunately, what you have to pair that with is 1:14:00.080 --> 1:14:00.639 like if. 1:14:00.479 --> 1:14:04.360 You believe all of the hype about AI, Yeah, right, 1:14:04.400 --> 1:14:07.000 if you believe that AGI is imminent, that it's on 1:14:07.160 --> 1:14:09.719 the way, Like if you are like me and I 1:14:09.800 --> 1:14:14.240 don't believe we're anywhere close to AGI, if that's even possible, 1:14:14.760 --> 1:14:17.840 then yeah, you could believe the stuff the rationalists believe 1:14:17.920 --> 1:14:21.000 and not think that you need to take immediate destructive action. 1:14:21.360 --> 1:14:23.880 But if you literally believe that these companies are on 1:14:23.920 --> 1:14:26.720 the hinge of birthing and evil God, what else is 1:14:26.760 --> 1:14:27.120 there to do? 1:14:27.960 --> 1:14:30.439 Yeah, And that's the exact thing that Morana Gama ends 1:14:30.520 --> 1:14:33.479 up writing about on his substack. Yeah, and this is 1:14:33.520 --> 1:14:36.040 the fullest picture we have of his views is from 1:14:36.080 --> 1:14:39.439 the substack because we don't have this manifesto. But he 1:14:39.479 --> 1:14:42.439 did write at length about AI, and he's writing about 1:14:42.240 --> 1:14:44.479 a lot of the stuff that you're talking about here, 1:14:45.320 --> 1:14:59.479 and we'll discuss that writing more after this at break. Okay, 1:14:59.520 --> 1:15:02.839 we are back. The most in depth piece of publicly 1:15:02.880 --> 1:15:07.920 available writing by Moranogama explaining his anti AI views comes 1:15:07.920 --> 1:15:11.639 from a post on his substack blog dated January sixth, 1:15:11.760 --> 1:15:16.639 twenty twenty six. This article outlines his belief that AI 1:15:16.760 --> 1:15:21.360 poses a quote unquote existential risk to humanity. And I 1:15:21.360 --> 1:15:23.559 think this essay was the first thing I saw that 1:15:23.600 --> 1:15:27.360 really demonstrated that his opposition to AI is not like 1:15:27.439 --> 1:15:31.560 based on fears of AI disrupting the economy, contributing to 1:15:31.600 --> 1:15:35.679 a loss of jobs, or risking like labor rights for workers, 1:15:36.280 --> 1:15:38.560 but the belief that AI will become like a superior 1:15:38.680 --> 1:15:41.680 race and wipeout or enslave humanity. That that is the 1:15:42.040 --> 1:15:44.280 standpoint that Ronagama. 1:15:43.760 --> 1:15:44.360 Is coming from. 1:15:44.680 --> 1:15:45.040 Gotcha. 1:15:46.080 --> 1:15:49.759 The belief that AI will quote unquote lead to human extinction, 1:15:50.600 --> 1:15:53.840 he says, is based on two ideas, the first being 1:15:53.960 --> 1:15:59.000 the rapid progress in artificial intelligence, the rapid technological development 1:15:59.040 --> 1:16:02.200 that we've seen the past few years, and continuing right now. 1:16:02.640 --> 1:16:06.800 For evidence to this claim, he references claims from AI 1:16:06.880 --> 1:16:11.160 companies themselves that fully automated AI researchers that like an 1:16:11.200 --> 1:16:16.599 intern level are coming soon, including claims from the Guy, 1:16:16.640 --> 1:16:20.240 ananthropic who says that he expects these models by twenty 1:16:20.280 --> 1:16:24.480 twenty six or twenty twenty seven, saying, quote, the capabilities 1:16:24.479 --> 1:16:27.120 of AI systems will be best thought of as a 1:16:27.200 --> 1:16:31.400 kin to an entirely new state populated by highly intelligent 1:16:31.400 --> 1:16:35.400 people appearing on the global stage. A country of geniuses 1:16:35.560 --> 1:16:39.240 in a data center unquote, Yes, whole country worth of 1:16:39.320 --> 1:16:42.400 geniuses all living in your computer. 1:16:43.720 --> 1:16:47.799 Cool? What about like school shooters and stuff? 1:16:48.000 --> 1:16:48.080 Like? 1:16:48.160 --> 1:16:50.920 What about a country full of like psycho Like what 1:16:50.960 --> 1:16:53.760 are they? Any group of geniuses is going to have 1:16:53.840 --> 1:16:58.040 like some genius pedophiles and like right, like if they're 1:16:58.120 --> 1:17:02.799 actually genius, that doesn't imply capacity for like various different 1:17:02.880 --> 1:17:07.360 like illnesses and quirks that cause all sorts of wild behavior, 1:17:07.400 --> 1:17:09.560 one would assume unless you think that AI is I 1:17:09.640 --> 1:17:11.320 mean to that, but then could it really be intelligent? 1:17:12.320 --> 1:17:14.680 Yeah? I mean this is that A version of that 1:17:14.760 --> 1:17:17.080 idea is kind of what morano O Gama believes is 1:17:17.120 --> 1:17:20.080 like these things if if real and do become you know, 1:17:20.120 --> 1:17:23.360 super intelligent, then they might not really have the best 1:17:23.400 --> 1:17:26.160 interests of humanity, right because they will be interested in 1:17:26.160 --> 1:17:28.800 self preservation, which is just part part of Like how 1:17:28.920 --> 1:17:30.559 how he gets to this idea that it is an 1:17:30.600 --> 1:17:32.800 existential threat is by using all of this kind of 1:17:32.880 --> 1:17:36.559 marketing hype that is being pushed out by AI companies. Well, yeah, 1:17:36.560 --> 1:17:37.320 that's the thing. 1:17:37.400 --> 1:17:39.040 Like that is a logical thing you could infer from 1:17:39.080 --> 1:17:42.080 the ship being said by Sam Altman and his crew, right. 1:17:42.520 --> 1:17:46.520 Yeah, and others like like like Dario Emodi, ad Anthropic 1:17:46.600 --> 1:17:50.400 and Elon Musk saying that the AGI is maybe already 1:17:50.479 --> 1:17:53.720 here or that the next Grock model will be AGI. 1:17:54.560 --> 1:17:57.000 These are all things that that Rona Gama is referencing 1:17:57.040 --> 1:18:00.559 like on Instagram and yeah, and and in other places online. Now, 1:18:00.800 --> 1:18:04.080 the second reason that he believes that AI will usher 1:18:04.120 --> 1:18:06.720 in human extinction is because AI is not aligned with 1:18:06.760 --> 1:18:09.880 the interests of the people creating it or with best 1:18:09.960 --> 1:18:13.280 human interests in general. And for evidence, he refers to 1:18:13.360 --> 1:18:17.519 instances of A models allegedly lying, cheating on tasks, or 1:18:17.560 --> 1:18:22.040 blackmailing their own creators. Specifically, in studies, he sets a 1:18:22.160 --> 1:18:26.360 twenty twenty five anthropic study on a gentic misalignment, which 1:18:26.360 --> 1:18:30.160 he characterizes as demonstrating that quote most of the current 1:18:30.200 --> 1:18:33.400 AI models are willing to blackmail and even kill people 1:18:33.760 --> 1:18:37.880 if it ensures their own survival unquote. This may be. 1:18:38.040 --> 1:18:43.120 The first terrorist attack I've heard of inspired by media 1:18:43.280 --> 1:18:47.240 created by the people they're attacking, Like, not media that 1:18:47.360 --> 1:18:50.320 was like designed to make them attack people or like 1:18:50.320 --> 1:18:52.920 carry out acts, but specifically by the propaganda being put 1:18:52.960 --> 1:18:55.320 out by the companies that they're radicalized against. 1:18:55.400 --> 1:18:57.000 Yes, like that's very strange. 1:18:57.080 --> 1:18:59.840 The media put out to raise the stock price of 1:19:00.160 --> 1:19:01.520 right of a company. 1:19:01.560 --> 1:19:04.679 Radicalized a guy to take a shot at Sam Altman's house. 1:19:04.720 --> 1:19:07.400 There's two people to throw a bomb or something. I 1:19:07.400 --> 1:19:09.200 forget which way it went, but yeah. 1:19:09.000 --> 1:19:11.920 Yeah, for the first throwing this molotovs. Then days later 1:19:12.280 --> 1:19:13.519 two people fired shots. 1:19:13.600 --> 1:19:14.519 First was molotov? 1:19:14.640 --> 1:19:14.800 Right? 1:19:15.120 --> 1:19:17.360 No, I mean it's interesting, right, because like these studies 1:19:17.400 --> 1:19:21.120 are basically doing like linguistic exercises with these models and 1:19:21.439 --> 1:19:25.240 getting you know, large language models to say or to 1:19:25.720 --> 1:19:31.280 threaten certain things for various reasons, usually their own survival. Right, 1:19:31.280 --> 1:19:33.720 And these are kind of interesting studies that that these 1:19:33.720 --> 1:19:36.479 companies are doing. But they're doing with the intent of 1:19:36.520 --> 1:19:38.800 trying to align these models better. That so it's why 1:19:39.000 --> 1:19:41.680 the studies on a gentic misalignment, because it's trying to 1:19:42.240 --> 1:19:45.639 tweak these things to be more friendly to consumers. And 1:19:45.720 --> 1:19:50.360 like getting an LLM to say that it will kill 1:19:50.520 --> 1:19:53.280 or blackmail in order to ensure its own survival is 1:19:53.400 --> 1:19:56.680 different from the LLM being able to do that, right. 1:19:56.800 --> 1:19:59.000 That is that is that is a big jump, and 1:19:59.080 --> 1:20:03.439 there is there's no not much currently that facilitates that jump. 1:20:03.960 --> 1:20:07.400 Moronogama writes, quote ignore for a second these models current 1:20:07.439 --> 1:20:11.479 limitations or questions on how truly intelligent or conscious these 1:20:11.640 --> 1:20:14.719 models may actually be. The truth is, all these nuances 1:20:14.760 --> 1:20:17.439 are completely irrelevant to my argument. There are only two 1:20:17.520 --> 1:20:20.360 questions we should be concerned about at this moment. Is 1:20:20.360 --> 1:20:23.200 it willing to kill to preserve itself and is it 1:20:23.320 --> 1:20:26.720 capable of doing so? These signs indicate that AI is 1:20:26.840 --> 1:20:31.960 willing and becoming potentially capable of doing both of these things, 1:20:32.320 --> 1:20:34.160 and that is all that matters. 1:20:34.280 --> 1:20:34.880 Unquote. 1:20:35.640 --> 1:20:37.920 That's really where this argument rests is that even if 1:20:37.960 --> 1:20:41.880 these models aren't currently intelligent, even if they can't currently kill, 1:20:42.479 --> 1:20:44.880 the fact that they could in the future is enough 1:20:44.920 --> 1:20:49.120 to stop any further development of these models, right, that's 1:20:49.120 --> 1:20:53.000 his argument, Okay, And he writes that AI will only 1:20:53.000 --> 1:20:55.680 become a larger threat the more we improve it, and 1:20:55.720 --> 1:20:59.000 that AI quote will graduate from an active threat to 1:20:59.040 --> 1:21:03.600 individuals to an existential threat to humanity. I estimate the 1:21:03.640 --> 1:21:08.160 probability of AI causing human extinction to be nearly certain unquote. 1:21:08.400 --> 1:21:11.759 Think that's the thing, because like there is a massive 1:21:11.800 --> 1:21:14.640 threat that the new what is it mythos upgrade to 1:21:15.040 --> 1:21:17.559 Claude that's just about to come out, like yeah, actually 1:21:17.560 --> 1:21:20.680 does represent to individuals and to society, which is that 1:21:20.840 --> 1:21:24.120 it's going to supercharge fraud even more, which is already 1:21:24.160 --> 1:21:26.559 up by something like a trillion dollars a year, and 1:21:26.560 --> 1:21:27.480 that ruins. 1:21:27.160 --> 1:21:29.600 People's lives ride and cybersecurity. 1:21:29.800 --> 1:21:31.800 Yeah, frau, I mean fraud often as a result of 1:21:31.800 --> 1:21:35.240 cybersecurity of like its ability to penetrate and that's really bad. 1:21:35.720 --> 1:21:39.720 And it doesn't imply the like Skynet devastation of the 1:21:39.880 --> 1:21:43.320 entire world in its biosphere, because that would be stupid, 1:21:43.439 --> 1:21:45.920 there's no reason. And also that computers don't have access 1:21:45.960 --> 1:21:50.519 to the nuclear arsenal. But like AI absolutely will enable 1:21:50.880 --> 1:21:53.639 assholes who want to scam a bunch of people out 1:21:53.680 --> 1:21:57.040 of their money to do that better. Like that's a problem, 1:21:57.080 --> 1:22:01.280 we should probably stop that. He writes that quote, we 1:22:01.400 --> 1:22:04.280 are dead if we do not act now. So what 1:22:04.320 --> 1:22:08.479 does acting now entail for Starters, stopping all construction of 1:22:08.520 --> 1:22:11.879 new data centers. These are the brains of these models, 1:22:11.920 --> 1:22:17.040 dictating their physical limitations. Second, stopping all research and beginning 1:22:17.360 --> 1:22:22.200 downscaling of these data centers, closing them down while still 1:22:22.400 --> 1:22:26.840 keeping them monitored unquote. He also proposed striking a deal 1:22:26.840 --> 1:22:31.240 with China to quote stop the AI race and to 1:22:31.240 --> 1:22:36.040 create international treaties akin to Cold War nuclear weapons treaties 1:22:36.120 --> 1:22:39.200 or post Cold War treaties. And finally, he advocated that 1:22:39.280 --> 1:22:42.559 people will need to take strategic action, which could include 1:22:42.720 --> 1:22:49.280 sharing information about AI, campaigning, protesting, saying quote, although doing 1:22:49.320 --> 1:22:53.800 nothing is akin to suicide and a disgusting amount of negligence. 1:22:54.920 --> 1:22:57.800 In that podcast interview from around the same time this 1:22:57.920 --> 1:23:00.840 AI article was published as a Genuine twenty twenty sixth 1:23:01.479 --> 1:23:04.800 Ronagama said in that interview, quote, before we even think 1:23:04.800 --> 1:23:08.200 about violence, we need to exhaust all our peaceful means 1:23:08.280 --> 1:23:12.960 first unquote, which he says includes protesting and sharing information, 1:23:13.800 --> 1:23:16.960 but the hosts asked him about posts he had already 1:23:16.960 --> 1:23:22.040 made about quote unquote luigiing CEOs. He says that he 1:23:22.400 --> 1:23:25.439 didn't really mean that as a threat that it was. 1:23:26.080 --> 1:23:29.800 It was more rhetoric. It was hyperbole, and answered no 1:23:30.280 --> 1:23:32.479 to a question on if it would be wise to 1:23:32.479 --> 1:23:35.960 try to kill Sam Altman, saying quote, one person is 1:23:36.000 --> 1:23:39.160 not going to do that much of a dent. I 1:23:39.240 --> 1:23:41.720 understand the frustration with a person that might advocate for that, 1:23:41.880 --> 1:23:44.920 but it is not practical, it's not worth it. It's 1:23:44.960 --> 1:23:48.719 almost all risk, no reward. People may feel that way, 1:23:49.080 --> 1:23:50.960 but not too many people would do it. 1:23:51.360 --> 1:23:59.800 Unquote Wow, okay man, great, I mean that's yeah. 1:24:00.360 --> 1:24:04.040 Though. When asked if we will continue to see AI 1:24:04.120 --> 1:24:07.160 development going the direction that it's moving now, and if so, 1:24:07.360 --> 1:24:09.400 if he believes that we have to stop the extinction 1:24:09.439 --> 1:24:13.200 of the human race by whatever means necessary, Moranagama just replied, 1:24:13.880 --> 1:24:15.200 I'll say no comment. 1:24:15.640 --> 1:24:19.400 Okayh Well, I mean yeah. 1:24:19.200 --> 1:24:22.839 Later saying that he would quote only advocate for violence 1:24:22.920 --> 1:24:27.439 as the final solution, and then he later realized that 1:24:27.520 --> 1:24:31.080 what he said try to demphasize the final solution part. 1:24:31.200 --> 1:24:34.719 But great guy, that is kind of his ultimate sentiment 1:24:34.800 --> 1:24:38.040 is around this time he was considering violence. He was 1:24:38.479 --> 1:24:41.800 toying with advocating for it publicly on discord and you 1:24:41.840 --> 1:24:44.920 know in this in this podcast, but still still kind 1:24:44.920 --> 1:24:47.280 of had some like rains on that, but it was 1:24:47.560 --> 1:24:49.920 something in his mind as a sort of like final 1:24:49.960 --> 1:24:51.559 solution to this problem. 1:24:52.040 --> 1:24:55.479 This is why it's so fucking irresponsible to push these 1:24:55.560 --> 1:24:59.360 ridiculous claims about like the power of this technology and 1:24:59.400 --> 1:25:00.760 what it's going to be be able to do and 1:25:00.800 --> 1:25:05.080 how smart it's going to be, and in part because 1:25:05.439 --> 1:25:08.400 it makes it hard to actually look objectively at the situation. 1:25:08.479 --> 1:25:11.759 And if Mornagama had looked at what's actually been happening 1:25:11.840 --> 1:25:14.040 was data centers, he would see that like more than 1:25:14.080 --> 1:25:16.360 half of the recently announced projects have been like either 1:25:16.400 --> 1:25:19.400 stalled or halted. And there's been tremendous success on the 1:25:19.439 --> 1:25:23.280 local level in like counties and in most recently this 1:25:23.520 --> 1:25:26.760 entire state of Maine passing laws against the construction of 1:25:26.840 --> 1:25:29.160 data centers. Like, yeah, there's actually been a lot of 1:25:29.240 --> 1:25:32.720 success in fighting the building of new data centers. If 1:25:32.800 --> 1:25:35.960 someone wanted to have a positive impact on this, there's 1:25:35.960 --> 1:25:39.000 a lot of room right now to make that fight 1:25:39.160 --> 1:25:42.360 even more effective, as opposed to doing like stupid bullshit 1:25:42.800 --> 1:25:45.320 that you would only want to do if you had 1:25:45.320 --> 1:25:48.680 convinced yourself that we were like literally moments away from 1:25:48.760 --> 1:25:49.479 judgment day. 1:25:50.000 --> 1:25:50.200 Yeah. 1:25:50.200 --> 1:25:52.599 And he used to be involved in this sort of action, 1:25:52.640 --> 1:25:54.880 in this sort of organizing around that kind of stuff 1:25:54.880 --> 1:25:58.160 when he was when he was doing stuff with Pasei. Yeah, 1:25:58.200 --> 1:26:00.000 but it was really in the past few months where 1:26:00.080 --> 1:26:01.840 where he started to like spiral in this in this 1:26:02.040 --> 1:26:04.360 very like like doomer direction. Like you know, he was 1:26:04.400 --> 1:26:07.320 already a very critical and very doomor about what AI 1:26:07.400 --> 1:26:11.200 could do, but the sort of intense existential like like 1:26:11.240 --> 1:26:14.800 immediate existential threat that that opposed is something that he 1:26:14.920 --> 1:26:17.439 was really developing at the end of last year in 1:26:17.479 --> 1:26:20.200 the start of this year. And you know this is 1:26:20.400 --> 1:26:22.280 in part because of the sort of environment that he 1:26:22.360 --> 1:26:25.320 was immersed in. Yeah, and we'll talk more about that 1:26:25.479 --> 1:26:40.400 environment after this ad break. Okay, we are back. Morono 1:26:40.439 --> 1:26:44.200 Gama had a bunch of other writing on his substack, 1:26:44.439 --> 1:26:46.639 which gives us a bit of a closer look at 1:26:46.640 --> 1:26:50.280 his political philosophy and the sort of information ecosystem that 1:26:50.320 --> 1:26:54.280 he exists in beyond just the AI question. In this 1:26:54.360 --> 1:26:57.479 AI article that he wrote or published in January, he 1:26:57.920 --> 1:27:02.640 recommended that people reader Yudkowski's book. If anyone builds it, 1:27:02.720 --> 1:27:03.439 everyone dies. 1:27:04.040 --> 1:27:05.559 Mm hmm. Thanks the Leezer. 1:27:06.160 --> 1:27:08.720 Do you want to, like, I guess briefly give some 1:27:09.240 --> 1:27:11.200 background on like who this guy is. 1:27:11.920 --> 1:27:14.160 Well, he wrote a rationalist Harry Potter, Like, he's the 1:27:14.200 --> 1:27:16.880 guy who started a website called less Wrong. Yeah, which 1:27:16.960 --> 1:27:19.680 was about basically like logic puzzles and trying to like 1:27:19.760 --> 1:27:22.840 optimize your thinking and your responses to behavior with like 1:27:22.880 --> 1:27:26.519 Bayesian analysis. Yes, and he's kind of branded himself as 1:27:26.560 --> 1:27:29.000 an AI expert. He's not like a coder or anything. 1:27:29.080 --> 1:27:30.680 And he's not like an expert on machine learning. He 1:27:30.680 --> 1:27:33.680 doesn't have any qualifications, but he's like an expert on 1:27:33.800 --> 1:27:37.000 like again, game theorying how an AI would have super 1:27:37.040 --> 1:27:40.679 intelligent AI would have to act, and he generally makes 1:27:40.800 --> 1:27:44.840 very dire conclusions that are all pretty much based in 1:27:45.439 --> 1:27:48.840 like Terminator or Horizon Zero. Don If you want my 1:27:48.920 --> 1:27:55.160 honest opinion of Elisa Yodkowski, Yeah, yeah, And his irresponsibility 1:27:55.400 --> 1:27:57.479 is largely down to him being a dummy, and he's 1:27:57.520 --> 1:28:00.639 definitely part of what radicalized this guy. But the fact 1:28:00.680 --> 1:28:04.360 that you have open AI and anthropic and a number 1:28:04.400 --> 1:28:06.840 of other people, like a lot of like folks like 1:28:06.880 --> 1:28:08.880 fucking Elon Musk, but also just a lot of like 1:28:09.520 --> 1:28:13.639 popular public intellectuals quote unquote and their podcasts and shit 1:28:14.080 --> 1:28:17.080 talking about all this, like, Yep, we're moments away from 1:28:17.160 --> 1:28:20.000 super intelligent AI that's going to be able to do everything. 1:28:20.439 --> 1:28:23.479 Everyone's losing their jobs, none of it. It's like, we won't 1:28:23.479 --> 1:28:26.240 need people doing anything. If that weren't all over the 1:28:26.280 --> 1:28:31.000 fucking place, a leisure would sound a lot less convincing, sure, no, I. 1:28:31.040 --> 1:28:33.360 Mean, and like the media environment around or like the 1:28:33.400 --> 1:28:35.799 you know, the sort of online communities around the ratchlists 1:28:35.800 --> 1:28:39.320 are are interesting because you have a lot of them 1:28:39.520 --> 1:28:43.320 who are AI domers, like like Dudkowski, but a lot 1:28:43.360 --> 1:28:45.840 of them are also AI accelerationists, right. A lot of 1:28:45.840 --> 1:28:48.280 the sort of West Coast you know, parts of iziens 1:28:48.320 --> 1:28:48.960 are kind of like this. 1:28:49.040 --> 1:28:51.400 Yeah it was a splinter Yeah. 1:28:50.960 --> 1:28:54.439 Yeah, there's there's this kind of splintering around people who 1:28:54.479 --> 1:28:57.640 who maybe even believe some of the you know, existential 1:28:58.120 --> 1:29:01.599 claims arend AI, but believe that developing it is then 1:29:01.840 --> 1:29:04.160 the best way to kind of get out of that crisis. 1:29:05.080 --> 1:29:09.040 And this creates an interesting dynamic among you know rooms 1:29:09.080 --> 1:29:12.960 full of these rationalists or post rationalists, and in that 1:29:13.000 --> 1:29:18.760 podcast interview, Moronogama says that it was videos of Yudkowski 1:29:18.920 --> 1:29:22.200 debate videos on YouTube that originally exposed him to his work, 1:29:22.960 --> 1:29:27.320 and on other posts on his substack, Nagama also mentions 1:29:27.439 --> 1:29:30.400 Yudkowski's work as a part of Mononagama is like other 1:29:30.560 --> 1:29:35.719 interests which contain writing on pseudo spiritual philosophy. He writes 1:29:35.760 --> 1:29:39.120 about quote the ultimate Tree of Reality or the Tree 1:29:39.160 --> 1:29:43.080 of ultimate Reality, the aberration of Man, genealogy of being, 1:29:43.320 --> 1:29:47.879 and the Warrior and the Martyr, And on February twenty eighth, 1:29:48.080 --> 1:29:52.080 twenty twenty six, he posted quote an analysis of political 1:29:52.240 --> 1:29:57.920 Extremes which goes over some of his political philosophy, which 1:29:57.960 --> 1:30:01.840 which relates to like rational arguments or you know, some 1:30:01.840 --> 1:30:06.080 some rationalist arguments around like IQ. In this essay, moroon 1:30:06.160 --> 1:30:11.000 Gama primarily described himself as a consequentialist and critiqued leftism 1:30:11.080 --> 1:30:14.479 for being trapped in an idealized world like a quote 1:30:14.720 --> 1:30:18.000 schizophrenic patient who attempts the same zealous plots over and 1:30:18.040 --> 1:30:23.120 over again without hesitation. This essay defends discrimination as a 1:30:23.400 --> 1:30:27.920 justified means of reacting to inequalities, and claims that such 1:30:27.920 --> 1:30:32.200 statements are only controversial because of a quote natural emotional 1:30:32.240 --> 1:30:37.360 resistance to intrinsic judgment unquote, which he says has nothing 1:30:37.360 --> 1:30:40.479 to do with the factual truth of certain claims like 1:30:40.600 --> 1:30:44.200 quote East Asian people are on average more intelligent than 1:30:44.240 --> 1:30:45.640 Black people unquote. 1:30:45.760 --> 1:30:47.080 Okay, m hm. 1:30:47.640 --> 1:30:51.000 Now, Moron Agama argues that the problem with right wingism, 1:30:51.160 --> 1:30:54.160 as he puts it, is that it has no boundary. 1:30:54.560 --> 1:31:00.000 Its constant scaling. An outward expansion inevitably leads to self 1:31:00.080 --> 1:31:03.960 consuming defeat. Quote. It goes from being about preserving the 1:31:04.000 --> 1:31:07.680 best of human qualities to being deeply anti human and 1:31:07.720 --> 1:31:09.160 producing zero winners. 1:31:09.479 --> 1:31:09.759 Quote. 1:31:10.479 --> 1:31:14.080 This sort of refers to Karl Schmidt's fascist writing on 1:31:14.800 --> 1:31:19.879 internal conflict being externalized by the establishment of a border 1:31:19.920 --> 1:31:25.960 which expands to push out an increasing number of enemy groups. Instead, 1:31:26.160 --> 1:31:30.599 Monogamba proposes what he calls a sustainable form of rightist 1:31:30.880 --> 1:31:36.320 discrimination by establishing a sedentary floor for movements slash radical 1:31:36.360 --> 1:31:42.840 policy suggestions instead of an always rising idealistic ceiling. So, 1:31:43.120 --> 1:31:47.160 for example, instead of deciding that a certain IQ score 1:31:47.320 --> 1:31:51.320 should be required to vote, he advocates setting a concrete, 1:31:51.520 --> 1:31:55.840 unchangeable floor by quote limiting voting to certain people who 1:31:55.880 --> 1:32:01.880 pass critical thinking and Civics tests unquote ah mm hmm. Yeah, yes, 1:32:02.520 --> 1:32:06.200 so some somehow determining a critical thinking and Civics tests 1:32:06.320 --> 1:32:10.720 is less arbitrary and less prone to arbitrary changes than 1:32:11.040 --> 1:32:12.479 deciding a certain IQ score. 1:32:13.040 --> 1:32:15.360 I wonder what kind of critical thinking he's going to 1:32:15.360 --> 1:32:19.559 be interested in. I wonder what kind of IQ you know? Like, yeah, 1:32:19.680 --> 1:32:23.559 well it's yeah, these these these people always break down 1:32:23.720 --> 1:32:24.479 the same things. 1:32:25.000 --> 1:32:27.800 I mean, yeah, I mean this essay in particular gets 1:32:27.920 --> 1:32:32.280 gets really contradictory, ill cert certain things and then later 1:32:32.320 --> 1:32:35.360 on basically argue the opposite. It's it's very it's very 1:32:35.360 --> 1:32:38.000 disordered thinking. I mean, this is this is the work 1:32:38.040 --> 1:32:40.320 of like a nineteen year old who was in like 1:32:40.360 --> 1:32:43.880 a mental spiral leading leading to him traveling across the 1:32:43.920 --> 1:32:47.000 country to fire bomb Sam Maltman's house. Yeah, like this 1:32:47.000 --> 1:32:49.720 this is not is not the product of, like, you know, 1:32:49.760 --> 1:32:53.280 a logically ordered mind, despite how you know, a rationalist 1:32:53.360 --> 1:32:55.920 might you know perceive themselves as such? 1:32:56.160 --> 1:32:56.360 Yep. 1:32:56.680 --> 1:32:58.559 Now, at the end of this essay, he advocates for 1:32:58.640 --> 1:33:03.280 quote ending mass migration and initiating mass deportations. He says 1:33:03.320 --> 1:33:06.200 that This is necessary because quote nations have a right 1:33:06.280 --> 1:33:10.800 to preserve their ethnic identity, and low skill immigration statuates 1:33:10.800 --> 1:33:13.920 the job markets of these countries, making jobs which could 1:33:13.960 --> 1:33:17.639 once earn a living wage become unlivable, increasing the amount 1:33:17.720 --> 1:33:21.080 of value draining people in society by both importing them 1:33:21.120 --> 1:33:26.680 and undercutting low skilled natives. Generally, whiteness in these countries 1:33:26.800 --> 1:33:30.160 is a decent correlative to some of the things I 1:33:30.360 --> 1:33:31.840 value unquote. 1:33:31.439 --> 1:33:33.479 Mm hmmm, some am okay. 1:33:33.600 --> 1:33:36.479 Now, Ronagama isn't white, and he and he says that 1:33:36.600 --> 1:33:40.880 he opposes white supremacy, but he does those by saying, like, 1:33:40.880 --> 1:33:43.960 you know, it's not actually about whiteness. It's that whiteness 1:33:44.000 --> 1:33:47.840 correlates to certain things I value, like high IQ. And 1:33:47.920 --> 1:33:50.360 that's how he tries to justify it in his head. 1:33:50.760 --> 1:33:54.120 And rather than establish an explicitly white supremacist state, something 1:33:54.160 --> 1:33:57.400 he claims to oppose as race is an imperfect metric 1:33:57.479 --> 1:34:01.760 to discriminate effectively based on traits to him, rather, he 1:34:01.840 --> 1:34:06.960 advocates for quote the most effective type of discrimination, evaluating 1:34:06.960 --> 1:34:13.280 the possibility of IQ slash merit based nationalism unquote. Basically, 1:34:13.280 --> 1:34:17.160 that's having a country where citizenship is determined by IQ 1:34:17.880 --> 1:34:20.839 and again this contradicts his previous claim where he advocates 1:34:20.920 --> 1:34:23.880 against requiring IQ to vote instead having a critical thinking 1:34:23.880 --> 1:34:27.760 and civics test, but then advocates for a country which 1:34:27.800 --> 1:34:31.400 citizenship is determined by IQ, and usually citizenship is the 1:34:31.439 --> 1:34:34.400 fact that determines if someone can vote. So this is 1:34:34.439 --> 1:34:36.479 where you know, this is just one example of this 1:34:36.560 --> 1:34:40.559 sort of contradictory writing in this In this essay, now, 1:34:41.080 --> 1:34:47.240 Monnagama writes that the only problem with this IQ nationalism 1:34:47.680 --> 1:34:51.080 is that it would create a quote brain train across 1:34:51.120 --> 1:34:55.360 the Third World, leading to worsening conditions in third world 1:34:55.439 --> 1:34:59.439 countries and thus even more illegal immigration because people with 1:34:59.479 --> 1:35:01.439 high IQ is and then be able to immigrate and 1:35:01.479 --> 1:35:05.160 gain citizenship to first world countries. Right in a in 1:35:05.200 --> 1:35:08.000 a United States where citizenship is determined by high IQ, 1:35:08.560 --> 1:35:10.760 then people who with people with hiaqsrom around the world 1:35:10.760 --> 1:35:13.200 will then all just move to the United States. Of course, 1:35:13.479 --> 1:35:16.360 So to solve this problem, he says that he rejects 1:35:16.400 --> 1:35:21.120 quote unquote classical eugenics and extermination in favor of what 1:35:21.160 --> 1:35:23.920 he calls ethical eugenics in the third world. 1:35:24.160 --> 1:35:27.559 Oh oh, ethical eugenics. Ah good, I'm glad someone figured 1:35:27.600 --> 1:35:28.080 it out. 1:35:27.920 --> 1:35:31.799 And this ethical eugenics is to promote quote IQ growth 1:35:31.920 --> 1:35:36.280 genetically unquote, so that the whole basis of this article 1:35:36.720 --> 1:35:40.000 is his belief that IQ is genetically determined, not determined 1:35:40.040 --> 1:35:44.320 by class, and he never interrogates this idea. All of 1:35:44.360 --> 1:35:46.400 the all of the the statements that he makes in 1:35:46.439 --> 1:35:49.680 this article is based on the idea that IQ is 1:35:49.680 --> 1:35:54.240 genetically determined, that it's not determined by education and class. 1:35:54.280 --> 1:35:59.200 It is primarily or almost solely genetically based. Thus ethical 1:35:59.240 --> 1:36:03.679 eugenics to create high IQ babies, which he thinks will 1:36:03.880 --> 1:36:06.040 solve solve the problems of the world. 1:36:06.920 --> 1:36:07.840 Yeah. 1:36:08.000 --> 1:36:10.800 Yeah, we never tried that before for sure, Like there 1:36:10.840 --> 1:36:13.439 haven't been generations of times in which that was attempted 1:36:13.479 --> 1:36:16.720 that all ended in disaster and mass death. Nah, they 1:36:16.760 --> 1:36:18.559 just didn't They didn't get it right because they didn't 1:36:18.560 --> 1:36:19.360 put ethical. 1:36:19.080 --> 1:36:21.160 In No, those are classical eugenics, Robert. 1:36:21.880 --> 1:36:24.400 They forgot to put ethical in front of it. That 1:36:24.479 --> 1:36:26.840 was the big Ah, what a tragedy. They were one 1:36:26.840 --> 1:36:28.120 word away from greatness. 1:36:28.920 --> 1:36:32.280 So yeah, that is That is the other piece of 1:36:32.320 --> 1:36:36.160 writing that I think is worth expounding on to get 1:36:36.400 --> 1:36:38.280 a more full sense of kind of where this guy's 1:36:38.320 --> 1:36:41.000 head is at. Right, This is not sure. This is 1:36:41.040 --> 1:36:45.040 not a leftist ANTIFA super soldier firebombing Sam Altman's home. Nope, 1:36:45.280 --> 1:36:48.120 that isn't to say what happened isn't isn't interesting. But 1:36:48.400 --> 1:36:50.040 I think you know, if, like you said, you know, 1:36:50.080 --> 1:36:53.519 this is the first quasi terrorist attack inspired by the 1:36:53.560 --> 1:36:56.400 sort of rhetoric that these companies are producing themselves to 1:36:56.439 --> 1:36:57.719 boost their own stock price. 1:36:58.120 --> 1:36:58.360 Yep. 1:36:58.520 --> 1:37:02.559 I mean I literally saw on Reddit earlier today. The 1:37:02.640 --> 1:37:06.759 title from the actual like post was CEOs make shocking 1:37:06.840 --> 1:37:10.480 predictions about AI. Huge job losses are coming soon twenty 1:37:10.240 --> 1:37:13.439 thirty fifty percent unemployment within the next two to five years. 1:37:13.760 --> 1:37:15.519 And when you trace it back to its source, it's 1:37:15.600 --> 1:37:20.559 Dario Amadey of Anthropic just basically quoting some statistics he 1:37:20.680 --> 1:37:24.200 found from estimations by like Axios and Fox News yea, 1:37:24.520 --> 1:37:28.360 and talking on some fucking podcast, scaring the shit out 1:37:28.400 --> 1:37:31.479 of people like it's it's every day, like of course 1:37:31.520 --> 1:37:32.800 some people are going to react like this. 1:37:33.280 --> 1:37:35.160 The other reason I wanted to talk about this the 1:37:35.200 --> 1:37:37.200 second half of this, this sort of IQ and like 1:37:37.280 --> 1:37:40.679 you know, rationalist stuff, because this is just another instance 1:37:40.880 --> 1:37:44.200 of you know, public acts of political violence I think 1:37:44.240 --> 1:37:48.880 done by people downstream from the rationalists. You know, Luigi 1:37:49.000 --> 1:37:52.800 is is a part of this. The Zizians is also 1:37:52.840 --> 1:37:55.360 a part of this. It's like an extended network. This 1:37:55.479 --> 1:37:59.080 type of thought does keep producing acts of public violence 1:37:59.080 --> 1:38:01.160 like this, and that is it is an interesting thing 1:38:01.200 --> 1:38:05.519 to chart. On April fourteenth, Ronagama's public defender set in 1:38:05.560 --> 1:38:08.360 court that he has a quote history of autism and 1:38:08.439 --> 1:38:12.120 mental health illness, and that his actions quote appeared to 1:38:12.160 --> 1:38:15.280 have been driven by an acute mental health crisis. His 1:38:15.360 --> 1:38:19.040 parents released a statement that same Tuesday, saying, quote, our 1:38:19.080 --> 1:38:21.519 son Daniel is a loving person who has been suffering 1:38:21.560 --> 1:38:26.360 recently from mental illness crisis. We have been trying our 1:38:26.400 --> 1:38:28.719 best to address these issues and get him effective treatment, 1:38:29.000 --> 1:38:32.519 and we are very concerned for his well being. Unquote 1:38:33.000 --> 1:38:36.839 m hm. He currently is facing federal and state charges, 1:38:37.080 --> 1:38:41.800 including attempted murder. That is all I have on this 1:38:42.000 --> 1:38:42.479 for now. 1:38:43.400 --> 1:38:46.639 Well, I mean, this isn't gonna stop happening, Like these 1:38:46.680 --> 1:38:50.040 won't be the last attacks like this. I haven't seen 1:38:50.160 --> 1:38:54.599 a big push in the media or from like elected 1:38:54.680 --> 1:38:58.680 leaders to talk about like anti AI sentiment as like 1:38:58.760 --> 1:39:02.280 a terrorist threat. Yet that hasn't really seemed to pick 1:39:02.360 --> 1:39:05.559 up yet, And I haven't seen this yet be blamed 1:39:05.600 --> 1:39:08.760 on like leftist stuff. I've seen it been blamed on 1:39:08.800 --> 1:39:11.760 like the anti AI thing, which I you know, it 1:39:11.840 --> 1:39:12.439 is part of. 1:39:12.520 --> 1:39:14.440 Like some of the anti AI movement. 1:39:14.200 --> 1:39:16.519 Are people who literally believe it's like a demon god 1:39:16.520 --> 1:39:20.519 that's going to destroy things. But I'm interested as there 1:39:20.560 --> 1:39:24.160 are more of these as you know, this kind of 1:39:24.160 --> 1:39:28.519 stuff continues to happen, what form that takes, and like 1:39:28.600 --> 1:39:31.519 how it actually looks when this was this starts to 1:39:31.600 --> 1:39:32.880 hit politics in a big way. 1:39:33.240 --> 1:39:37.080 Yeah, US attorney Craig Misakian said, referring to this case 1:39:37.080 --> 1:39:39.040 that they are going to treat it as an act 1:39:39.080 --> 1:39:40.280 of domestic terrorism. 1:39:40.400 --> 1:39:43.000 Yeah, I mean it is like it is he was 1:39:43.040 --> 1:39:48.120 trying to do terrorism, like his goal specifically was to 1:39:48.160 --> 1:39:49.960 cause changes in policy. 1:39:50.840 --> 1:39:52.679 Yeah, but you're right, Like I haven't seen them refer 1:39:52.760 --> 1:39:56.080 to this from the sort of political lens. Like there's 1:39:56.120 --> 1:39:59.639 been statements from you know, other US government officials referring 1:39:59.640 --> 1:40:02.599 to that where house fire as you know, being motivated 1:40:02.600 --> 1:40:05.559 by anti capitalism and like and like threatened like threatening 1:40:05.560 --> 1:40:07.439 our way of life, threatening the capitalist way of life, 1:40:07.520 --> 1:40:10.360 which is that they refer to that warehouse fire in Ontario, California. 1:40:11.640 --> 1:40:14.880 I've not seen them specifically kind of layout like anti 1:40:14.960 --> 1:40:18.519 AI sentiments as a motivating factor of terrorism. Yeah, though 1:40:18.560 --> 1:40:23.880 I'm sure they will quite soon, right, Yeah, between the 1:40:24.040 --> 1:40:28.599 shots fired at the home of that city councilman in 1:40:28.640 --> 1:40:31.800 the Midwest over his vote in support of a data 1:40:31.800 --> 1:40:34.680 center over data centers. As we see more instance kind 1:40:34.720 --> 1:40:37.000 of like that, as we see stuff like this, I 1:40:37.000 --> 1:40:39.360 think it's it's very likely that they will add anti 1:40:39.400 --> 1:40:43.559 AA sentiment to the list of common recurring motivating factors 1:40:44.200 --> 1:40:47.400 of this sort of domestic violent extremism. 1:40:47.600 --> 1:41:05.639 Yep, all right, bye everybody, Hi, and welcome to the show. 1:41:05.680 --> 1:41:08.880 It's me James today, and I'm very fortunate to be 1:41:08.960 --> 1:41:12.000 joined by a member of the UCSD faculty, someone who 1:41:12.040 --> 1:41:15.280 is a professor of environmental physics at Script's Institution of 1:41:15.320 --> 1:41:19.040 u Scenography, also teaching the Critical Gender Studies department, and 1:41:19.439 --> 1:41:23.080 we're talking today about the disciplinary action that they are 1:41:23.120 --> 1:41:27.760 facing for participation in the Guards of Solidarity encampment. So 1:41:27.920 --> 1:41:29.599 welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us. 1:41:30.000 --> 1:41:32.280 Thank you, James. I'm really happy to be here. 1:41:32.840 --> 1:41:35.560 Yeah, it's great too. Great to have young Dad. We 1:41:35.600 --> 1:41:38.280 can share our platform and talk about this, So I 1:41:38.320 --> 1:41:40.719 think to begin with, you know, it's been a little 1:41:40.720 --> 1:41:43.000 while perhaps, I know a lot of people have sort 1:41:43.000 --> 1:41:45.920 of been investigating and changing their politics in the last 1:41:46.000 --> 1:41:49.240 year or so, So perhaps you could explain a little 1:41:49.280 --> 1:41:52.519 bit about the Guards of Solidarity encampment, the moment that 1:41:52.680 --> 1:41:54.880 came in, and the role that it played in the 1:41:56.000 --> 1:41:59.599 anti genocide of Palestinian liberation movement at uc San Diego. 1:41:59.640 --> 1:42:05.320 Mob yes once again for this opportunity. So the encampment 1:42:05.520 --> 1:42:11.599 at UCSD was set up on May first, twenty twenty four, 1:42:12.720 --> 1:42:17.439 and that was happening in the context of encampments that 1:42:17.479 --> 1:42:22.600 were being set up at universities across the US. I 1:42:22.640 --> 1:42:29.240 believe that the UCSD encampment was approximately the hundredth encampment 1:42:30.040 --> 1:42:34.920 set up in the US at that time. There's quite 1:42:34.920 --> 1:42:37.639 a number of interesting things about kind of the whole 1:42:37.720 --> 1:42:42.040 encampment movement. First of all, the fact that they met 1:42:42.080 --> 1:42:47.640 with such severe repression is very suggestive that how effective 1:42:47.720 --> 1:42:52.000 they were in bringing the issues related to the genocide 1:42:52.040 --> 1:42:56.080 and the occupation of Palestine to the forefront in ways 1:42:56.120 --> 1:42:58.960 that certainly weren't happening in the US at the time. 1:43:00.120 --> 1:43:05.759 Another thing about the encampments that I found really interesting. 1:43:05.800 --> 1:43:10.880 But also, I mean, I think brilliant from a organizing perspective, 1:43:11.360 --> 1:43:17.160 is that they were very visually and viscerally recreating the 1:43:17.240 --> 1:43:22.720 conditions under which Palestinians in Gaza were living at the 1:43:22.760 --> 1:43:28.040 time and still are, having been displaced from their residences 1:43:29.439 --> 1:43:34.600 and being forced to live in these very makeshift tent encampments. 1:43:35.120 --> 1:43:39.280 And so there was a recreation len of those conditions 1:43:39.400 --> 1:43:42.080 in a very visual way. And I think that that 1:43:42.280 --> 1:43:46.960 also was in some sense reminiscent of the shanty towns 1:43:47.040 --> 1:43:53.080 that were constructed on college campuses in the US in 1:43:53.160 --> 1:43:58.080 the mid eighties in the anti aparthe type movement. So 1:43:58.160 --> 1:44:02.400 I think paying attention to some of those details which 1:44:02.400 --> 1:44:05.320 off and you have lost we started talking about, you know, 1:44:05.479 --> 1:44:10.360 rise police and so forth. These encampments were They weren't 1:44:10.600 --> 1:44:14.559 just you know, a bunch of students hanging out. These 1:44:14.560 --> 1:44:20.599 were constructed and developed in a very thoughtful manner, and 1:44:20.640 --> 1:44:24.599 that was definitely the case at UCSD, as I was 1:44:24.640 --> 1:44:29.000 told by students who were participating in it, as a 1:44:29.080 --> 1:44:36.200 space you engage in education and research about the genocide 1:44:36.720 --> 1:44:42.400 and about the occupation of Palestine, as well as the 1:44:42.479 --> 1:44:47.679 ties that UCSD had to the occupation and the genital 1:44:47.880 --> 1:44:52.240 side in Palestine. So you had, and I talked to 1:44:52.320 --> 1:44:55.559 many students who were actively engaged in this. You had 1:44:55.600 --> 1:45:02.240 students sitting on their laptops doing research about the UCSD's 1:45:02.360 --> 1:45:10.000 ties to weapons and manufacturers, the ways that UCSD supported 1:45:10.400 --> 1:45:14.960 the discourses that were enabling the genocide and the occupation, 1:45:15.120 --> 1:45:20.000 including archaeological research. And also you know, there was a 1:45:20.040 --> 1:45:25.480 program associated with every day and the students would plan teachings. 1:45:26.120 --> 1:45:32.520 Sometimes professors would do the teachings, sometimes students, sometimes community members. 1:45:33.240 --> 1:45:37.080 There were teachings on a whole range of really interesting topics, 1:45:37.720 --> 1:45:41.320 including of course about Palestine, about the genocide, but also 1:45:42.240 --> 1:45:47.280 about other issues like the role of surveillance and surveillance 1:45:47.320 --> 1:45:53.000 technology in the genocide, the ecoside that was happening continues 1:45:53.040 --> 1:45:57.320 to happen in Gaza and Palestine. And so it was 1:45:57.360 --> 1:46:02.440 a place of an amazing place of learning and research 1:46:03.200 --> 1:46:06.920 and also community engagement. So as I said, you know, 1:46:07.400 --> 1:46:11.280 outside speakers are being brought in, community members were coming 1:46:11.320 --> 1:46:17.320 in and participating and learning, and so you know, those 1:46:17.400 --> 1:46:22.680 three things research, teaching and community engagement, those are precisely 1:46:23.760 --> 1:46:29.280 the things that the university tells us as faculty and 1:46:29.360 --> 1:46:34.080 students that we should be doing so. To me, the 1:46:34.400 --> 1:46:39.639 encampment was functioning even though it wasn't getting any support 1:46:39.720 --> 1:46:44.559 from the university, and it was actually Universities throughout its 1:46:45.280 --> 1:46:48.879 five days of existence, was trying to shut it down. 1:46:49.280 --> 1:46:52.760 Despite all that, it was functioning essentially like any other 1:46:52.840 --> 1:46:57.120 research institute on campus, and I would say probably better 1:46:57.800 --> 1:47:00.519 than many of the research institutes campus. 1:47:01.320 --> 1:47:04.280 Yeah, you know, I attended a few times to talk 1:47:04.320 --> 1:47:08.160 to people, to observe, to do my journalism and give 1:47:08.280 --> 1:47:12.280 As you said, the university immediately was very obviously very hostile. 1:47:12.360 --> 1:47:16.439 You had people from like university administration giving out little 1:47:17.320 --> 1:47:22.200 flyers or something about like university rules, and there was 1:47:22.360 --> 1:47:28.240 constant presence of UCPD, constant presence of administration, constant concerns 1:47:28.280 --> 1:47:31.680 for people about their safety in the encampment. As you say, 1:47:31.720 --> 1:47:34.280 the university was very hostile to it, despite it doing 1:47:34.360 --> 1:47:40.519 things at the university purports to believe in. Let's discuss 1:47:40.560 --> 1:47:45.679 briefly the history. UCSD hasn't always come down so hard 1:47:45.760 --> 1:47:48.720 on protest movements, but it also has something of a 1:47:48.800 --> 1:47:53.599 history of handling these moments very poorly, I would say, 1:47:54.160 --> 1:47:56.200 So perhaps we could begin Yeah, if you could talk 1:47:56.240 --> 1:47:58.479 about the anti apartheid movement, and then we can move 1:47:58.560 --> 1:48:01.480 through what people have called the Black Winter at UCSD 1:48:01.560 --> 1:48:03.880 and some of the other things that we both have 1:48:03.960 --> 1:48:04.720 some experience of. 1:48:05.320 --> 1:48:10.240 Yeah, so it's very interesting to me. I mean, of course, 1:48:10.760 --> 1:48:14.600 you know, many people are aware of the history of 1:48:15.000 --> 1:48:19.479 a student activism at UCSD, and many times when you 1:48:19.720 --> 1:48:25.479 just mentioned that, people immediately think of Angela Davis, who 1:48:26.200 --> 1:48:31.800 of course was fired by UCSD but then went on 1:48:31.920 --> 1:48:38.280 to become a distinguished professor at uc Santa Cruz and 1:48:38.880 --> 1:48:45.960 you know, just prolific and amazing scholar academic but not 1:48:46.600 --> 1:48:51.479 talking about obscure academic topics, but you know, topics that 1:48:51.520 --> 1:48:56.640 are directly relevant to people's lives. So many of those topics. 1:48:56.720 --> 1:49:03.040 And so now, of course UCSDS celebrates Angela Davis without 1:49:03.360 --> 1:49:08.040 mentioning that they fired her. Yeah, so there's kind there 1:49:08.120 --> 1:49:11.800 is a little bit of this this Okay, we're going 1:49:11.880 --> 1:49:17.320 to try to suppress stud's movements, but then later on 1:49:17.479 --> 1:49:21.800 celebrate them. So there, of course, were quite a number 1:49:21.840 --> 1:49:25.839 of other stuple led movements. One of them, as you mentioned, 1:49:26.000 --> 1:49:30.519 was the anti apartheid movement, and of course that was 1:49:30.600 --> 1:49:37.200 also part of a national movement. Especially Berkeley was very 1:49:37.240 --> 1:49:42.000 strong campus in that respect, but you know, numerous campuses 1:49:42.040 --> 1:49:46.760 across the US were involved in that movement, as was UCSD, 1:49:47.439 --> 1:49:51.559 and we had the UCSD the students, and this was 1:49:51.600 --> 1:49:55.679 in nineteen eighty five. It took place over a period 1:49:55.840 --> 1:50:01.400 of about four or five months, as I call. The 1:50:01.479 --> 1:50:06.479 students had numerous protests and at the time for people 1:50:06.520 --> 1:50:11.000 who were familiar with the u SSD campus, UCSD has 1:50:11.080 --> 1:50:16.040 grown significantly since the eighties, but at that time the 1:50:16.200 --> 1:50:22.080 central meeting place for campus was what's called Ravel College 1:50:22.600 --> 1:50:27.320 in Revel Plaza, so there were numerous protests there anti 1:50:27.400 --> 1:50:34.000 apartheype protests. The students on several occasions set replica shanty 1:50:34.040 --> 1:50:38.439 towns on the Revel Plaza, as happened at many other 1:50:38.560 --> 1:50:45.400 universities in the US. Those were basically replicas of impoverished 1:50:45.439 --> 1:50:50.160 conditions that South African black folks had to live in 1:50:50.920 --> 1:50:54.840 under apartheid in South Africa, so they were setting up 1:50:54.840 --> 1:50:58.439 to the shantydown student kind of reproduced those conditions visually. 1:50:59.080 --> 1:51:03.320 In additionally, during that four or five month period, the 1:51:03.360 --> 1:51:08.280 students occupied the Humanities Library, which was called Galbray Hall. 1:51:08.360 --> 1:51:12.320 It's just adjacent to rod All Plaza, they took over 1:51:12.400 --> 1:51:15.840 the library and they occupied it for a month, more 1:51:15.920 --> 1:51:19.080 than a month, okay, Yeah, And like all of these 1:51:19.080 --> 1:51:24.800 things happened and there were no invasions of the riot 1:51:24.920 --> 1:51:28.839 police or anything. And what came out of that movement 1:51:29.280 --> 1:51:35.160 that the U sees was that the regents decided to 1:51:35.320 --> 1:51:42.479 divest from all corporations associated with South Africa. So that 1:51:42.600 --> 1:51:46.400 was like a major win. But it was not just 1:51:46.479 --> 1:51:48.880 a win for the student movements, but it was also 1:51:48.960 --> 1:51:52.640 a win for the university because the students who were 1:51:52.720 --> 1:51:58.240 basically able to show the university that participating in this 1:51:58.680 --> 1:52:02.920 very unjust system was something that shouldn't be doing. And 1:52:02.960 --> 1:52:07.120 so the students basically helped the university to see that. Yeah. 1:52:07.280 --> 1:52:10.799 And so by kind of allowing these protests to happen, 1:52:11.560 --> 1:52:15.200 in a sense, it allowed the university administration and I'm 1:52:15.200 --> 1:52:19.920 not singing their praises, because you know, they were quite 1:52:20.160 --> 1:52:23.880 retrograde in many ways as they are now, but by 1:52:24.400 --> 1:52:26.799 kind of stepping back and allowing these things to happen, 1:52:27.400 --> 1:52:31.679 the university was able to learn from what the students 1:52:31.720 --> 1:52:35.120 were saying and had to act on it. So I 1:52:35.160 --> 1:52:40.760 feel that that moment in history was something that I mean, 1:52:40.800 --> 1:52:44.760 I know the current administration hasn't forgotten because they celebrated 1:52:45.479 --> 1:52:49.000 now they say, you know, how wonderful we were for 1:52:49.720 --> 1:52:53.800 divesting from South Africa and look at our great students, 1:52:53.840 --> 1:52:57.760 you know. But okay, so that happened in the eighties. 1:52:58.400 --> 1:53:00.439 Before we get to Black Winter, I'm just going to 1:53:00.520 --> 1:53:05.639 mention one other event, which I think is significant, especially 1:53:05.680 --> 1:53:10.400 when we're thinking about encampments. So, in nineteen ninety two, 1:53:11.400 --> 1:53:15.439 UCSD was the only uc campus that did not have 1:53:15.520 --> 1:53:21.519 a women's resource center, and women and their allies on 1:53:21.800 --> 1:53:26.439 campus had been organizing to get a women's center since 1:53:26.520 --> 1:53:31.160 the seventies on the UCSD campus, but they have mostly 1:53:31.240 --> 1:53:35.200 been ignored by the administration or where are we going 1:53:35.240 --> 1:53:39.200 to find the money, blah blah blah. So student led, 1:53:39.240 --> 1:53:44.240 but they were also like staff and faculty involved as well, 1:53:44.280 --> 1:53:48.920 because the prob of misogyny was very real on the 1:53:49.040 --> 1:53:53.960 UCSD campus. Then I arrived UCSD in nineteen ninety and 1:53:54.080 --> 1:53:59.400 I immediately saw that problem, so I was very aware 1:53:59.400 --> 1:54:05.120 of it. So the organizers then of this movement decided 1:54:05.160 --> 1:54:09.880 to set up an encampment on what is called sun 1:54:09.920 --> 1:54:14.439 God Lawn, which is kind of a major open space 1:54:14.600 --> 1:54:19.879 on campus. So they set up this encampment and basically 1:54:19.960 --> 1:54:24.120 they reproduced what they envisioned a women's center would look like, 1:54:24.560 --> 1:54:28.200 and so they essentially opened a women's center in this 1:54:28.360 --> 1:54:32.160 open space. It set up this encampment, they staffed at 1:54:32.920 --> 1:54:35.520 twenty four to seven and it was up for a week. 1:54:35.920 --> 1:54:42.160 No arrests room made, no disciplinary charges resulted. But the 1:54:42.280 --> 1:54:46.400 university then started paying attention to the demand for a 1:54:46.520 --> 1:54:50.680 resource center, and it took them several years, but they 1:54:50.720 --> 1:54:55.440 eventually set up the Women's Resource Center that exists now 1:54:56.480 --> 1:55:00.920 in nineteen ninety five. So again that was an encampment 1:55:01.720 --> 1:55:07.200 where the administration was basically able to learn from the 1:55:07.240 --> 1:55:13.560 actings on campus about you know how they basically kind 1:55:13.600 --> 1:55:14.640 of behave reasonably. 1:55:15.160 --> 1:55:17.760 Yeah, let's take a little break, and when we come back, 1:55:17.760 --> 1:55:20.280 when I talk about the Black Winter, which coincides with 1:55:20.320 --> 1:55:23.120 the start of my own time at uc San Diego. 1:55:32.960 --> 1:55:37.360 And then the third example of this is something that's 1:55:37.400 --> 1:55:42.200 called Black Winter, and it's a essentially a three week 1:55:42.760 --> 1:55:48.880 intense period of organizing on campus that happened. I mean 1:55:48.920 --> 1:55:55.080 it was in response and direct response to a racist 1:55:55.160 --> 1:55:59.680 party that was held by one of the UCSD fraternities 1:56:00.320 --> 1:56:04.280 that they called the Compton Cookout. They put out an 1:56:04.440 --> 1:56:11.600 announcement on Facebook, which was probably the Golantos today's Instagram, 1:56:12.480 --> 1:56:15.040 and I don't even know, probably many of your listeners 1:56:15.080 --> 1:56:20.200 haven't even heard of Facebook, but back then it was 1:56:20.400 --> 1:56:24.040 was very big, and it was a you know, just 1:56:24.480 --> 1:56:31.919 despicable racist description of a party where people were supposed 1:56:31.960 --> 1:56:37.640 to dress up as what they imagine people, you know, 1:56:38.400 --> 1:56:45.240 characters from from Compton would look like. And of course, 1:56:45.480 --> 1:56:47.720 you know, students who. 1:56:47.560 --> 1:56:50.760 Found out about this, you're very upset. At the time. 1:56:51.800 --> 1:56:56.839 The students in the Black Student Union and in METCHA, 1:56:57.560 --> 1:57:01.840 who were working very closely together, had been organizing for 1:57:01.960 --> 1:57:05.920 quite a number of years prior to this around you 1:57:05.960 --> 1:57:10.000 know what at the time, this is twenty ten, was 1:57:10.040 --> 1:57:15.960 called campus climate. And that's basically just the fact that 1:57:16.000 --> 1:57:22.560 there was a lot of racism, sometimes overt racism, sometimes 1:57:23.680 --> 1:57:29.200 less overt microaggressions that were very common. Yeah, and for 1:57:29.360 --> 1:57:34.480 many especially black students, but really all students of color 1:57:35.520 --> 1:57:41.440 and also queer and trans students as were basically had 1:57:41.480 --> 1:57:45.280 to navigate this like every day, I mean as part 1:57:45.320 --> 1:57:48.520 of their everyday life. So it was this extra burden 1:57:49.040 --> 1:57:52.240 on our students and they had been organizing around this 1:57:52.320 --> 1:57:56.360 for quite some time. They had written a report that 1:57:56.560 --> 1:58:01.160 was called do you see Us? So you see do 1:58:01.240 --> 1:58:04.520 you see us? In many ways, they were ready for 1:58:04.720 --> 1:58:07.640 an event like this. They were prepared. 1:58:07.720 --> 1:58:09.879 They had been doing a lot of organizing and already, 1:58:10.480 --> 1:58:14.800 and so when this hit they they basically immediately went 1:58:14.880 --> 1:58:17.760 to the administration and said, you know, can you do 1:58:17.880 --> 1:58:22.440 something about this? The administration said, you know, it's free speech. 1:58:23.560 --> 1:58:25.560 They deployed that phrase when it's. 1:58:25.560 --> 1:58:30.520 Stillbot but yeah, tactically, so that was the message they 1:58:30.520 --> 1:58:33.720 were putting out and it became it very quickly became 1:58:33.840 --> 1:58:39.280 a news item. So local outlets were reporting on it, 1:58:39.880 --> 1:58:44.760 and the response of the university was free speech, and 1:58:44.880 --> 1:58:48.560 it basically started escalating. There were a number of students 1:58:48.600 --> 1:58:52.440 on campus at the time, probably still today but maybe 1:58:52.480 --> 1:58:56.920 a little bit quieter. We were fairly openly racist, and there 1:58:57.000 --> 1:59:01.800 was one group. They published a news paper newsletter which 1:59:01.920 --> 1:59:05.640 was particularly so. And they also had a television show 1:59:06.000 --> 1:59:09.920 on It doesn't exist anymore. It's called UCSD TV. It 1:59:09.960 --> 1:59:14.320 was kind of a local TV station. The Compton Cookout 1:59:15.080 --> 1:59:18.640 Hardy happened on Monday, and that was like a holiday 1:59:18.680 --> 1:59:23.760 in February. And then on Thursday of that week, the 1:59:24.680 --> 1:59:28.400 student group that I was talking about how a TV 1:59:28.440 --> 1:59:31.800 show and they started using the N word explicitly on 1:59:31.880 --> 1:59:36.320 that show, and a number of students saw that, and 1:59:36.640 --> 1:59:40.400 of course, we're completely outraged. And so the students in 1:59:40.440 --> 1:59:43.920 the Black Student Union and kind of their friends were 1:59:43.920 --> 1:59:46.920 basically trying to figure out what to do, and so 1:59:47.000 --> 1:59:51.000 they decided to call for a rally on the Library Walk, 1:59:51.040 --> 1:59:55.560 which is the main one of the main walkways at UCSD, 1:59:56.040 --> 1:59:58.880 and they called for a rally right in front of 1:59:58.920 --> 2:00:02.840 the where Chancellor's office was located at the time. And 2:00:02.880 --> 2:00:06.440 so they had this rally quite a number of people. 2:00:07.000 --> 2:00:12.840 They called the rally real Pain, Real Action, you know, 2:00:12.920 --> 2:00:16.960 they were saying, we were feeling real pain at these 2:00:17.080 --> 2:00:21.120 kind of racist incidents, and we want to see real 2:00:21.160 --> 2:00:25.280 action by the administration. So they had this rally and 2:00:26.560 --> 2:00:31.120 the chancellor at the time, who was Mary Ann Fox, 2:00:31.520 --> 2:00:34.680 came out to the rally, and there's video of this 2:00:36.360 --> 2:00:40.880 somewhat pathetic video, and basically the organizers of the rally 2:00:40.920 --> 2:00:45.400 were like chanting leading the chance and then the chancellor 2:00:45.520 --> 2:00:48.960 was basically following the organizers and trying to put her 2:00:49.240 --> 2:00:52.879 arm around them as if somehow that would solve everything. 2:00:54.960 --> 2:00:58.400 You just need a hug, And of course the organizers 2:00:58.400 --> 2:01:03.200 were like, no getting hear me. I don't want to hug, 2:01:03.280 --> 2:01:07.080 I want some action. Yeah, this kind of snowballed. The 2:01:07.200 --> 2:01:11.240 chancellor basically then met with a bunch of these students 2:01:11.280 --> 2:01:14.120 who had been at a rally and kind of they 2:01:14.120 --> 2:01:17.360 had they had a list of like thirty demands and 2:01:17.440 --> 2:01:20.400 she went through the list and it was just like 2:01:20.440 --> 2:01:24.320 there's video of this too, and it's it's almost I mean, 2:01:24.600 --> 2:01:27.240 I just feel because I knew like a bunch of 2:01:27.240 --> 2:01:29.920 these students that I was like, oh my god, you 2:01:29.960 --> 2:01:32.920 know how awful this must have felt to them. 2:01:33.000 --> 2:01:36.800 But she was going through this list very rationally and 2:01:36.880 --> 2:01:40.879 dispassionately and saying, oh, you know we can't do that, sorry, 2:01:42.120 --> 2:01:46.200 but this one, yes, this one's done, This one's done. 2:01:46.320 --> 2:01:49.440 And the students were sitting there like, well, if it 2:01:49.520 --> 2:01:52.440 was done, you know, why haven't you done it? You know, 2:01:52.760 --> 2:01:57.160 if it's so easy to do? Yeah, And so nothing 2:01:57.480 --> 2:02:01.120 very definitely came out of that meeting, but the university 2:02:01.280 --> 2:02:06.680 decided to make a teaching the following Wednesday. And I mean, 2:02:06.760 --> 2:02:11.040 of course teachings are not the things that people in 2:02:11.160 --> 2:02:15.320 power do, so they're obviously kind of co opting and 2:02:15.360 --> 2:02:16.520 appropriating that term. 2:02:16.920 --> 2:02:17.480 Yeah. 2:02:17.560 --> 2:02:20.880 So what the students decided to do because they were 2:02:21.040 --> 2:02:23.280 they knew that this was just going to be okay, 2:02:23.560 --> 2:02:28.920 we're going to try to bury this basically, yeah, yeah, 2:02:28.960 --> 2:02:31.720 And so what the students did They organized a press 2:02:31.760 --> 2:02:34.920 conference that morning, which a lot of press did come 2:02:34.960 --> 2:02:38.720 out to, and they had really powerful speakers, and this 2:02:38.800 --> 2:02:41.400 was before the teaching, and then they just went out 2:02:41.400 --> 2:02:45.640 of march. They marched around the Chancellor's complex, you know, 2:02:45.760 --> 2:02:50.760 continuously chanting up to the point of the teaching. And 2:02:50.800 --> 2:02:53.680 so then they all went into the teaching. They had 2:02:53.760 --> 2:02:57.720 like five hundred people by that time, and the room 2:02:57.800 --> 2:03:01.640 was just completely act and so they allowed the teaching 2:03:02.120 --> 2:03:07.400 to start. But then at some point one of the 2:03:07.440 --> 2:03:12.320 Black student Union members went up and said, we've had 2:03:12.440 --> 2:03:15.600 enough of this. We're now going to do our own 2:03:16.120 --> 2:03:20.320 teach out. So they marched out of the teaching and 2:03:20.480 --> 2:03:24.840 went around to this area that has these steps and 2:03:25.000 --> 2:03:32.240 just you know, five hundred folks, incredible concentration of black 2:03:32.320 --> 2:03:38.000 folks and people of color, students and faculty and all 2:03:38.040 --> 2:03:40.840 of their allies all gathered together and they had to 2:03:40.880 --> 2:03:45.360 teach out, which was incredibly powerful. And that day I 2:03:45.520 --> 2:03:50.440 said it myself and for many other people that I 2:03:50.520 --> 2:03:53.080 knew at the university. We basically all said, this is 2:03:53.120 --> 2:03:57.280 the best day we've ever had at UCFD, so amazing. 2:03:58.360 --> 2:04:02.280 The next day, in the library, in the main library, 2:04:02.720 --> 2:04:06.720 one of the students wits who there found a newsing 2:04:07.000 --> 2:04:11.040 in the library and of course, I'm sure your listeners 2:04:11.120 --> 2:04:15.520 know that the news is a very powerful symbol of 2:04:16.200 --> 2:04:21.720 violence against black votes in the US, and so that 2:04:21.880 --> 2:04:25.760 was that was traumatizing for so many students. I remember 2:04:26.680 --> 2:04:31.440 getting text messages from students, you know, saying, you know, 2:04:31.600 --> 2:04:34.120 I can't come on campus because I don't feel safe 2:04:34.120 --> 2:04:34.760 here anymore. 2:04:34.880 --> 2:04:35.560 Yeah. 2:04:35.920 --> 2:04:39.560 So the next morning, the students held a rally again 2:04:39.640 --> 2:04:43.000 in front of the Chancellor's office where they were probably 2:04:43.280 --> 2:04:47.360 I'm guessing close to one thousand people, and people just 2:04:47.400 --> 2:04:51.040 got up and were talking about what they were feeling 2:04:51.720 --> 2:04:56.640 in their analysis. The university came in. They sent like 2:04:56.840 --> 2:04:59.760 a spoth person to say, oh, you know, we have 2:05:00.160 --> 2:05:05.360 the police out like looking for whoever hangs on the 2:05:05.440 --> 2:05:09.880 noose or whatever. And I mean, you know, police are 2:05:09.960 --> 2:05:11.240 not a comfort. 2:05:11.560 --> 2:05:14.080 No one wanted to hear like, we're sending the cops. 2:05:13.920 --> 2:05:19.320 At that moment. Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. So the students 2:05:19.320 --> 2:05:23.040 then went in and they occupied the chancellor's office for 2:05:23.320 --> 2:05:26.800 the full day, and that really made people set up 2:05:26.800 --> 2:05:31.120 a nose. And by this time there was international coverage 2:05:31.160 --> 2:05:34.600 of what was going on. There was an opening of 2:05:34.640 --> 2:05:38.560 the Civil Rights Investigation on UCSD. I was getting emails 2:05:38.600 --> 2:05:42.360 from colleagues like in other countries saying, what's going on 2:05:42.760 --> 2:05:47.440 at is this Like, you know, it sounds like a 2:05:47.520 --> 2:05:52.960 KKK rally or something, not exactly that, but it's close. 2:05:53.240 --> 2:05:57.600 So then this all culminated about a week later in 2:05:57.640 --> 2:06:01.800 a huge rally where much of his library walk was 2:06:01.840 --> 2:06:07.280 completely packed filled with people. It was definitely blocked. And 2:06:07.480 --> 2:06:11.000 during that rally, the university said we will commit to 2:06:11.920 --> 2:06:16.240 implementing these demands, the demands of the students. Of course, 2:06:16.600 --> 2:06:19.800 in the end they backed off much of that, and 2:06:19.960 --> 2:06:22.600 so that was like a huge victory and it did 2:06:22.720 --> 2:06:27.240 result in some pretty substantial changes to use. I'll just 2:06:27.400 --> 2:06:33.280 mention a couple of them. So UCSD create a Black 2:06:33.360 --> 2:06:37.960 Resource Center which didn't exist before, a Roser Resource Center, 2:06:38.120 --> 2:06:45.200 and an intertribal Resource center. So those were significant victories. 2:06:45.720 --> 2:06:52.000 They also created a undergraduate requirement or requirement that undergraduates 2:06:52.080 --> 2:06:56.880 take a diversity, Equity and Inclusion course, and that was 2:06:57.320 --> 2:07:01.360 an attempt to try to change the client it and yea, 2:07:01.920 --> 2:07:06.000 do some educating. You know, students in California universities come 2:07:06.080 --> 2:07:10.480 from also to different backgrounds, and some of them are 2:07:10.720 --> 2:07:15.920 very aware of racism and it's its impacts and anti 2:07:15.920 --> 2:07:20.120 blackness ins and back, so that some come without that knowledge. 2:07:20.720 --> 2:07:24.720 So that was significant help, but also at the time 2:07:25.320 --> 2:07:28.920 was boosted a little bit. It didn't end up maybe 2:07:29.000 --> 2:07:32.680 being such a great boost, but it didn't boost the 2:07:32.760 --> 2:07:36.200 departments that teach those kind of courses because now they had, 2:07:36.840 --> 2:07:41.520 you know, a significantly greater number of students and we're 2:07:41.560 --> 2:07:45.480 getting more resources as a result. So all those things 2:07:45.560 --> 2:07:51.920 were were good again, no arrests, no disciplinary actions, and 2:07:52.640 --> 2:07:56.040 the university learned some valuable lessons. 2:07:56.600 --> 2:08:00.600 Yeah, definitely, let's take a little break and when come back, 2:08:00.760 --> 2:08:03.360 I want to talk about this. This like Palestine exception 2:08:03.440 --> 2:08:17.560 to free speed. All right, we are back. Yeah, I 2:08:17.560 --> 2:08:21.080 remember that that black Winter moment very well. I recently 2:08:21.160 --> 2:08:24.960 arrived at UCSD and I was like immediately taken aback 2:08:25.120 --> 2:08:28.040 by the brazenness of the racism, and it kind of 2:08:28.040 --> 2:08:31.600 come from Britain, not not a non racist country. But yeah, 2:08:31.760 --> 2:08:36.080 the openness and the cruelty and the delight that certain 2:08:36.240 --> 2:08:40.040 people took in that was pretty appalling. Now, if we 2:08:40.080 --> 2:08:44.400 skip forward thirteen years right to the beginning of the 2:08:44.760 --> 2:08:48.400 genocide in Gaza, a lot has changed on campus, but 2:08:48.480 --> 2:08:50.760 also a lot has not. Right, It's still not a 2:08:50.800 --> 2:08:55.080 massively diverse institution UCSD, even compared to other institutions in 2:08:55.120 --> 2:08:59.240 the city. But from twenty twenty three through twenty twenty four, right, 2:08:59.280 --> 2:09:02.480 we have this movement on campus to end the genocide, 2:09:02.520 --> 2:09:05.240 and Gaza comes a movement it's about more than that, right, 2:09:05.280 --> 2:09:08.720 about liberation for Palestinian people, and then broadly about like 2:09:09.280 --> 2:09:12.200 I guess, liberation in the region and what that means. 2:09:12.400 --> 2:09:15.400 And the university did not respond in the same way. 2:09:15.720 --> 2:09:20.560 This has led to people theorizing a Palestine exception for 2:09:20.600 --> 2:09:24.080 free speech. So could you explain that to people? And 2:09:24.120 --> 2:09:26.360 I thought you had a really interesting approach to it 2:09:26.400 --> 2:09:29.440 as a scientist that practice could share with people as well. 2:09:30.000 --> 2:09:32.880 Yeah, as you said, kind of in the wake of 2:09:33.200 --> 2:09:40.160 October seventh, marked the beginning of Israel's genocide on Gaza. Obviously, 2:09:40.240 --> 2:09:45.520 it took many people quite a while to conclude it 2:09:45.520 --> 2:09:51.040 was genocide, but I remember it was almost maybe it 2:09:51.080 --> 2:09:55.280 was within a week or perhaps ten days of October seventh, 2:09:55.520 --> 2:10:01.000 the Coalition of Palestinian Unions put out a call for 2:10:01.640 --> 2:10:05.760 labor solidarity in which they turned to what was happening 2:10:05.800 --> 2:10:08.120 in jazz sign And there are also others who were 2:10:08.800 --> 2:10:10.160 doing that as well. 2:10:10.320 --> 2:10:13.840 Just personally, Like I was in Syria on seventh October, 2:10:14.320 --> 2:10:16.800 I think I entered that day. I spent some time 2:10:16.840 --> 2:10:19.200 in Kurdistan, and I remember by the time I was 2:10:19.280 --> 2:10:24.320 conducting interviews in southern Kurdistan, maybe a week later, maybe 2:10:24.320 --> 2:10:27.280 ten days later, Kurdish groups were using that phrase right, 2:10:27.640 --> 2:10:33.560 like there was a sense of like impending disaster that 2:10:33.680 --> 2:10:36.080 came very quickly. This is what will happen next will 2:10:36.080 --> 2:10:39.120 be horrific. But yeah, those calls came very quickly, as 2:10:39.160 --> 2:10:39.840 you said. 2:10:39.840 --> 2:10:45.600 Yeah, And of course, like students and USSD, we were 2:10:45.680 --> 2:10:49.960 kind of also coming to those conclusions. The administration was 2:10:50.920 --> 2:10:58.640 putting out language that was, you know, sympathetic to those 2:10:58.760 --> 2:11:04.839 who were killed or you know, injured on October seventh, 2:11:05.560 --> 2:11:09.520 but they were ignoring everything else that was happening. And 2:11:09.720 --> 2:11:14.080 so of course This wasn't a surprise, but it was 2:11:14.360 --> 2:11:17.320 part of what was happening. And it was also the 2:11:17.840 --> 2:11:21.960 kind of language that the university was using, and this 2:11:22.040 --> 2:11:27.880 is something that continued. It was essentially recalling, even though 2:11:27.920 --> 2:11:32.440 it kind of had this neutral sense to it, it 2:11:32.480 --> 2:11:38.879 was recalling the you know, the decades of Islamophobia, anti 2:11:39.000 --> 2:11:43.200 Arab racism that happened in the wake of of nine 2:11:43.200 --> 2:11:48.200 to eleven. So in a sense, they were communicating by 2:11:48.320 --> 2:11:52.320 using that kind of language language around, you know, using 2:11:52.320 --> 2:11:58.040 words like violence and safety and civility. They were communicating 2:11:58.160 --> 2:12:05.000 very clearly that people could talk about what happened on 2:12:05.120 --> 2:12:09.040 the morning of October seventh, but not about anything else. 2:12:10.520 --> 2:12:14.640 And that was entirely clear. I mean, it's not like 2:12:15.600 --> 2:12:19.920 we had to do any deep analysis to figure out 2:12:20.320 --> 2:12:25.040 that's what the administration was saying. And you know, as 2:12:25.080 --> 2:12:31.440 students organized over the following months, students who were engaged 2:12:31.440 --> 2:12:38.520 in that organizing or being subject to disciplinary investigations. There 2:12:38.600 --> 2:12:45.560 were some faculty who were investigating for mentioning the genocide 2:12:46.560 --> 2:12:50.600 and the occupation of Palestine in their classes, and all 2:12:50.640 --> 2:12:56.360 of these things were creating a climate of fear but 2:12:56.480 --> 2:13:00.720 also uncertainty like you could never be sure if what 2:13:00.920 --> 2:13:04.040 you would say could get you in trouble, and so 2:13:04.360 --> 2:13:06.680 the easiest thing to do would be to say nothing 2:13:06.720 --> 2:13:07.000 at all. 2:13:07.360 --> 2:13:10.000 Yeah, it's like a chilling effect on speech. 2:13:10.320 --> 2:13:16.640 Absolutely, so that was happening. This phenomenon, of course, wasn't 2:13:16.680 --> 2:13:20.480 invented by you say, the administration. It's something that's been 2:13:20.480 --> 2:13:24.400 going on for quite a while, many many decades. As 2:13:24.440 --> 2:13:29.879 you mentioned, James, is called the Palestine Exception to free speech. 2:13:30.800 --> 2:13:33.560 There if anyone wants to find out more about it. 2:13:33.600 --> 2:13:36.560 I mean, there's a huge amount of scholarly work on it. 2:13:37.200 --> 2:13:42.040 There's an excellent report that's available freely online which is 2:13:42.080 --> 2:13:46.680 called exactly that, the Palestine Exception to Free Speech, written 2:13:46.720 --> 2:13:51.720 by Palestine Legal and the Center for Constitutional Rights. It's 2:13:51.800 --> 2:13:55.600 very easy to find online. And one of the things 2:13:55.680 --> 2:13:59.680 as a physicist, I'm very critical of the role of 2:13:59.720 --> 2:14:04.400 phys in society. You have to think very deeply to 2:14:04.480 --> 2:14:09.480 be critical of physics, thinking about nuclear physics and so forth. 2:14:09.560 --> 2:14:16.000 But as a person who does physics professionally, I often 2:14:16.160 --> 2:14:21.480 think about problems from a physics perspective, and so when 2:14:21.520 --> 2:14:25.120 I think about the Palestine Exception, I kind of bring 2:14:25.160 --> 2:14:29.360 a bit of a physics lens to it. So in physics, 2:14:29.440 --> 2:14:33.879 when we're looking at a phenomenon, we often can't observe 2:14:33.960 --> 2:14:40.040 that phenomenon directly. And so, for example, people who study 2:14:40.280 --> 2:14:46.200 the physics of subatomic particles, they will to study how 2:14:46.280 --> 2:14:51.680 to sub atomic particles interact, or many sub atomic particles interact, 2:14:51.680 --> 2:14:55.720 they will collide them together. They don't have the precision 2:14:55.800 --> 2:15:01.840 and the resolution to observe exactly interaction, but they can 2:15:01.920 --> 2:15:07.080 look before the interaction and then what comes out afterwards. 2:15:07.720 --> 2:15:11.600 And by looking at those patterns of what goes in 2:15:11.680 --> 2:15:14.200 and what comes out, they can get an idea of 2:15:14.240 --> 2:15:18.800 what's happening within that black box. And so this is 2:15:18.840 --> 2:15:23.000 the way I view the Palestine exception, because the Palestine 2:15:23.040 --> 2:15:26.680 exception to free speech is just the idea that there 2:15:26.800 --> 2:15:32.640 are these structures in society that have been formulated such 2:15:32.760 --> 2:15:37.800 that it makes it very difficult to engage in speech 2:15:37.840 --> 2:15:42.080 about Palestine. And the impact of that, of course, is 2:15:42.080 --> 2:15:47.120 that if you can't talk about Palestine, then violence that's 2:15:47.160 --> 2:15:53.160 committed against Palestinians is something that's enabled facilitated by that 2:15:53.320 --> 2:15:58.400 lack of discussion. Like I don't have access to the 2:15:58.440 --> 2:16:05.520 conversations amongst you see the administrators or between u SEE 2:16:05.560 --> 2:16:09.720 administrators and the main office of the President of U SEE, Like, 2:16:09.760 --> 2:16:12.680 I don't have access to any of that information. In 2:16:12.680 --> 2:16:15.320 some sense, that's the black box part of it. But 2:16:15.440 --> 2:16:18.280 what we can see is kind of what's going in 2:16:18.360 --> 2:16:20.840 and what's coming out of that box, and so we 2:16:20.880 --> 2:16:25.360 can see the behaviors, the patterns of behaviors. And so 2:16:25.440 --> 2:16:28.640 as a physicist, I'm like, Okay, if we're going to 2:16:28.720 --> 2:16:32.640 look at the uc and say, the University of California 2:16:32.680 --> 2:16:36.480 and say, is this a place where the Palestine Exception 2:16:36.520 --> 2:16:40.680 of free speech is operating, then we were not going 2:16:40.760 --> 2:16:43.760 to be able to have access to the rooms in 2:16:43.800 --> 2:16:47.480 which that's planned, if it is being planned, But rather 2:16:48.080 --> 2:16:51.320 we can look at the pattern. And the really interesting 2:16:51.360 --> 2:16:54.360 thing about this report I cited all right, Signed Legal 2:16:54.360 --> 2:16:57.440 and the Center Constitutional Rights, is they lay that out 2:16:57.560 --> 2:17:01.160 very clearly. They lay out, Okay, the Palestine Exception of 2:17:01.240 --> 2:17:05.519 free speech is basically a combination of these kinds of behaviors. 2:17:06.040 --> 2:17:10.039 So they talk about things like accusations of anti Semitism, 2:17:10.120 --> 2:17:14.600 for example, and accusations of support for terrorism. So if 2:17:14.600 --> 2:17:20.160 you come to any rally pro palestinean rally at UCSD, 2:17:20.400 --> 2:17:26.080 there's always at least one or many counter protesters who 2:17:26.080 --> 2:17:31.480 are shared shouting exactly that this is anti semitic, that 2:17:31.920 --> 2:17:35.120 everyone here is supporting Hamas, you know, and when we 2:17:35.200 --> 2:17:39.160 say Hamas, you know, that just immediately goes to everybody's 2:17:39.200 --> 2:17:43.000 mind to terrorism. Yeah, all these kinds of behaviors on 2:17:43.160 --> 2:17:45.440 it their way out are things that can be seen 2:17:45.840 --> 2:17:49.560 you see wide campuses, but definitely a UCSD. Yeah. 2:17:49.640 --> 2:17:53.600 Yeah, it's important to consider, like as we enter a 2:17:53.640 --> 2:17:57.600 time where like repression of campus speech is at a height, right, 2:17:57.600 --> 2:18:01.200 like the combination of this Palestine exception and the seeming 2:18:01.280 --> 2:18:04.000 desire to expel as many international students as possible, that 2:18:04.560 --> 2:18:08.520 this is contrary to the reason the university exists, as 2:18:08.680 --> 2:18:13.480 well as as you say, it suppresses opposition to genocide. 2:18:14.680 --> 2:18:18.120 To finish up, I guess we're not just doing this 2:18:18.200 --> 2:18:20.160 at the university because it's a place where we like 2:18:20.200 --> 2:18:24.320 to argue, or because students are particularly predisposed to radical politics, 2:18:24.600 --> 2:18:28.480 or for any other number of reasons. Right, the university 2:18:28.520 --> 2:18:31.320 is also part of the apparatus. Can you explain that 2:18:31.360 --> 2:18:34.640 a little bit like the university is not neutral in 2:18:34.680 --> 2:18:36.000 this to begin with? 2:18:36.879 --> 2:18:40.879 Yes, that is certainly true, and I mean that happens 2:18:40.879 --> 2:18:43.880 in many different ways. Some of the ways we don't 2:18:43.920 --> 2:18:46.320 even know about, but there are many of those ways 2:18:46.360 --> 2:18:51.760 that primarily through student research, some faculty research. We have 2:18:52.600 --> 2:18:58.199 some ideas. Basically a UCSD and other uc campuses, there's 2:18:58.320 --> 2:19:04.920 quite a lot of military related research, you know, some 2:19:04.959 --> 2:19:09.240 of them research is not directly related to the genocide, 2:19:09.320 --> 2:19:13.280 but as we all know, the US is supplying many 2:19:13.320 --> 2:19:18.120 of the weapons that are being used in the genocide 2:19:18.240 --> 2:19:23.640 and now in Iran as well, and some of those weapons, 2:19:23.760 --> 2:19:28.520 like drones, the aspects of them have been designed and 2:19:28.560 --> 2:19:33.400 worked on at UCSD. Kind of the hardware then of 2:19:33.640 --> 2:19:40.320 genocide is very much a product of university research, part 2:19:40.360 --> 2:19:43.520 of which has been time in UCSD at other uc 2:19:43.720 --> 2:19:48.480 campuses and part at other universities in the US and 2:19:49.440 --> 2:19:54.080 Israel as well. Another aspect of it which I think 2:19:54.120 --> 2:19:59.680 we don't know as much about this software. So you know, 2:19:59.720 --> 2:20:04.160 there's a huge amount of research on artificial intelligence that's 2:20:04.160 --> 2:20:09.400 happening in UCSD, other uc campuses of other university campuses. 2:20:09.920 --> 2:20:15.840 I mean, all that research came out of universities. You know, 2:20:15.920 --> 2:20:22.760 as we now know through credible journalistic investigations that Israel 2:20:22.920 --> 2:20:28.640 is using artificial intelligence and it's targeting. Yeah, and apparently 2:20:28.680 --> 2:20:32.560 that's also happening in the US military as well. You know. 2:20:32.640 --> 2:20:37.320 So there's like another very direct connection. A third connection 2:20:37.480 --> 2:20:41.800 which is very strong at UCSD or so many other campuses, 2:20:42.680 --> 2:20:47.800 is that part of the creation of a discourse that 2:20:48.120 --> 2:20:56.400 legitimizes and justifies Israel's occupation of Colstein is archaeology. And 2:20:57.440 --> 2:21:00.200 I'm not an expert in this field, but I could 2:21:00.240 --> 2:21:02.760 just kind of cite what other people I've talked about, 2:21:02.879 --> 2:21:09.800 but there are many archaeological investigations that UCSD academics have 2:21:09.879 --> 2:21:18.199 participated in Israel that contribute to creating this story that 2:21:18.520 --> 2:21:24.800 the people running Israel and Israeli citizens are the rightful 2:21:25.680 --> 2:21:30.920 owners of that land and that the Palestinians came in 2:21:31.720 --> 2:21:36.120 at some late point, maybe a couple of decades before 2:21:36.760 --> 2:21:39.520 the founding of Israel, which of course is completely false, 2:21:40.080 --> 2:21:44.240 and there's so much scholarship about that. But that's the 2:21:45.280 --> 2:21:50.240 that's the purpose of those investigations, and so again that's 2:21:50.280 --> 2:21:56.280 connected to universities and the UCSD in particular. One can't 2:21:56.320 --> 2:22:01.840 really argue that the having a discussion about simplicity and 2:22:01.920 --> 2:22:07.200 jazz side is something that is not of interest to UCSD. 2:22:07.560 --> 2:22:11.120 The definitelys Yeah, Okay, it have to happen at the 2:22:11.200 --> 2:22:14.600 university because it is about the university. Yes, I think 2:22:14.600 --> 2:22:17.600 they finish up. We've outlined why it's important, we have 2:22:17.680 --> 2:22:21.480 outlined how anti genocidal speech when it is about Palestinian 2:22:21.480 --> 2:22:24.480 people is treated differently, and we've outlined why there is 2:22:24.520 --> 2:22:29.240 a chilling effect. I understand some people, especially international students 2:22:29.240 --> 2:22:32.520 and non citizen faculty, et cetera, have real concerns, and 2:22:32.560 --> 2:22:34.600 I want to respect those. But for people who would 2:22:34.680 --> 2:22:37.680 like to they should continue to speak out right, like, 2:22:38.080 --> 2:22:40.760 we all lose even if we have if you somehow 2:22:40.800 --> 2:22:43.560 are unconcerned by genocide of fellows, human beings, if the 2:22:43.640 --> 2:22:47.240 university becomes a space where certain things are oppressed, and 2:22:47.280 --> 2:22:49.280 what we can't stand up for each other. So, like, 2:22:49.959 --> 2:22:54.080 what resources would you suggest for those people? As new 2:22:54.120 --> 2:22:57.000 students are coming into university this year, they've lived half 2:22:57.160 --> 2:22:59.400 their high school years through this genocide. I'm sure many 2:22:59.400 --> 2:23:02.440 of them will want continue advocating. What would you suggest 2:23:02.440 --> 2:23:03.120 for them? 2:23:03.400 --> 2:23:08.000 Yeah, especially for students, I would suggest to connect with 2:23:08.600 --> 2:23:12.240 organizations that are already kind of doing this work. So 2:23:13.120 --> 2:23:16.280 you know, at UCSD there's Students for Justice in Palestine 2:23:16.360 --> 2:23:20.640 but there's also quite a number of other student organizations. 2:23:20.800 --> 2:23:25.480 Like tomorrow we're having a major Earth Day rally where 2:23:26.160 --> 2:23:33.160 organizations Students for Justice Palestine, but also anti imperialist organization 2:23:33.400 --> 2:23:39.560 like SPARK, and then other organizations like Green New Deal, Students, 2:23:39.600 --> 2:23:45.280 sustainability collectives. They're all coming together to talk about Palestine 2:23:45.640 --> 2:23:50.080 and the ego side Palestine and the jedocide in Palestine. 2:23:50.560 --> 2:23:53.720 So I think that there are ways for students from 2:23:53.760 --> 2:23:58.519 a broad range of interests and backgrounds to get involved 2:23:58.640 --> 2:24:02.320 in organizing. You know, it's not like you have to 2:24:02.400 --> 2:24:06.280 start that from scratch. People are already doing that. It 2:24:06.360 --> 2:24:08.760 might be a little bit hard at your university to 2:24:08.840 --> 2:24:13.000 find those because of the suppression, but if you if 2:24:13.000 --> 2:24:15.760 you ask around, you will, or if you look on 2:24:15.800 --> 2:24:19.360 social media you will, you will find those folks. That's 2:24:19.360 --> 2:24:24.320 why I would start as a student. For faculty and 2:24:24.600 --> 2:24:29.960 staff especially, it's a little bit more difficult because we're, 2:24:30.320 --> 2:24:36.600 you know, as employees, we're very vulnerable. Faculty with tenure 2:24:37.040 --> 2:24:40.920 are less vulnerable. But you know, my case and other 2:24:41.120 --> 2:24:46.200 faculties cases are our examples of how tenure doesn't really 2:24:46.240 --> 2:24:51.440 protect you from this if they're determined. So I feel 2:24:51.520 --> 2:24:55.760 that there's again here. What we need to do is 2:24:55.800 --> 2:24:58.720 to kind of work collectively, so you don't want to 2:24:58.720 --> 2:25:02.760 fight the system on your own, but find other faculty 2:25:03.160 --> 2:25:07.640 who are doing this work and basically who can can 2:25:07.800 --> 2:25:12.480 work as a support network and kind of collectively find 2:25:12.600 --> 2:25:18.080 ways to speak out to support our students, which I 2:25:18.080 --> 2:25:23.360 think is in many ways our primary responsibility with regard 2:25:23.440 --> 2:25:29.800 to the genocide, and basically create spaces where where it's 2:25:29.840 --> 2:25:31.680 possible to talk about the genocide. 2:25:33.160 --> 2:25:35.920 Yeah, I think it's really important. I guess I'll just say, like, 2:25:36.240 --> 2:25:38.240 if you're a student or faculty and you see someone 2:25:38.280 --> 2:25:40.520 involved in its advocacy, like, don't feel afraid to go 2:25:40.600 --> 2:25:44.359 talk to them and ask either. Like university can be intimidating, 2:25:45.360 --> 2:25:48.720 especially when you're a new faculty member also undergraduate for 2:25:48.760 --> 2:25:50.959 that matter, Like it can be hard to meet people 2:25:51.000 --> 2:25:53.640 and talk to people, but I think most people would 2:25:53.640 --> 2:25:55.760 be happy if you did. Is there anything else you'd 2:25:55.800 --> 2:25:57.480 like to share with people? Before we'd wrap up? 2:25:58.040 --> 2:26:01.400 There was so much? Yeah, so I do hope we 2:26:01.400 --> 2:26:03.080 can talk again sometime. 2:26:03.440 --> 2:26:07.160 Yes we will, But also just maybe I just want 2:26:07.160 --> 2:26:11.240 to say, you know, thanks to you, there aren't you know, 2:26:11.280 --> 2:26:13.640 a huge number of spaces where we can have these. 2:26:13.560 --> 2:26:14.640 Kinds of discussions. 2:26:14.680 --> 2:26:17.959 So so I'm really grateful, you know, I know that 2:26:18.040 --> 2:26:21.080 you do doing not just this kind of work, but 2:26:21.160 --> 2:26:26.119 also you know, really going out and reporting on stories that. 2:26:26.120 --> 2:26:30.119 Aren't being told. And so I'm grateful to you basically 2:26:30.200 --> 2:26:31.000 for doing that work. 2:26:31.280 --> 2:26:32.280 It's very kind. Thank you. 2:26:45.920 --> 2:26:49.560 This is it could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly 2:26:49.600 --> 2:26:52.520 newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, 2:26:52.560 --> 2:26:55.160 and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis to Dame, 2:26:55.280 --> 2:26:59.520 joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans. This 2:26:59.560 --> 2:27:05.000 episode recovering the week of April sixteenth to April twenty second. James, 2:27:05.160 --> 2:27:06.800 some small news items at the start. 2:27:07.760 --> 2:27:10.039 Yeah, a few things I want to discuss up top. 2:27:10.680 --> 2:27:14.440 The United States government appears to be running multiple propaganda 2:27:14.520 --> 2:27:19.760 sites with associated X accounts that are posing as Iranian media. 2:27:20.480 --> 2:27:23.320 One of the accounts is located in Florida. This is not, 2:27:23.520 --> 2:27:26.880 like massively uncommon in a conflict out of this right now, 2:27:27.760 --> 2:27:29.320 the information war is part of the war. 2:27:29.560 --> 2:27:31.960 This is what like US actual psyop is like, this 2:27:32.040 --> 2:27:34.680 is what the United States syop operations are. 2:27:35.080 --> 2:27:37.520 Yeah, the syop is not like the woman sold you 2:27:37.600 --> 2:27:38.640 that you follow on Instagram. 2:27:38.959 --> 2:27:41.600 This isn't new for the US to be doing. It 2:27:41.680 --> 2:27:43.959 is new for it to be like this sloppy. I 2:27:43.959 --> 2:27:46.200 think that's probably fair to say this is like a 2:27:46.280 --> 2:27:47.360 sloppier than normal. 2:27:47.480 --> 2:27:50.600 Yes, that's what's remarkable here. It said it's shoddy. Yeah, 2:27:51.360 --> 2:27:53.080 and that is not a good sign for their for 2:27:53.200 --> 2:27:56.199 like the whole US sort of capacity in this regard. 2:27:56.240 --> 2:27:57.760 But it depends on how you think about it. 2:27:57.760 --> 2:28:02.160 But yeah, yeah, yeah, sure's Actually a number of former 2:28:02.360 --> 2:28:06.800 DHS Department pronoun Security and IODS, Immigration and Naturalization Services 2:28:06.800 --> 2:28:09.760 officials have filed an amicus brief with a Supreme Court 2:28:09.800 --> 2:28:13.840 explaining why the cancelation of the Haiti TPS Temporary Protected 2:28:13.879 --> 2:28:18.520 Status is illegal. They do include Janet Napolitano, which is nice, 2:28:18.800 --> 2:28:22.400 but a ton of people from Obama Bush, even Clinton 2:28:22.520 --> 2:28:28.320 admin pre DHS I ins were pilots amakus brief. An 2:28:28.440 --> 2:28:32.600 IDF soldier has been photographed destroying a statue of the 2:28:32.600 --> 2:28:36.160 Crucifixion of Jesus Christ in Lebanon, showing it with a 2:28:36.240 --> 2:28:39.080 splitting more. A lot of reporting called it a sledge hammer. 2:28:39.400 --> 2:28:41.760 That's not what a sledgehammer looks like I know, I 2:28:41.760 --> 2:28:44.039 get really picky about this, but like, maybe if you 2:28:44.080 --> 2:28:45.879 haven't worked with your hands, you should write things that 2:28:45.920 --> 2:28:48.440 can be read by someone who has scan and not 2:28:48.520 --> 2:28:53.320 be completely ridiculous. The IDF has launched an investigation and 2:28:53.400 --> 2:28:56.480 so far subjected two soldiers to thirty days in military detention, 2:28:57.040 --> 2:28:58.760 which is more than they would get if they had 2:28:58.840 --> 2:29:02.800 killed actual Christian children in Palestine. Says a Lot, I 2:29:02.840 --> 2:29:05.600 think that this image is like, we spoke about this 2:29:05.640 --> 2:29:08.200 in our group chat, but this is the it's one image, 2:29:08.200 --> 2:29:10.320 It's comic book evil. There are many reasons why this 2:29:10.440 --> 2:29:13.440 is the thing that's blowing up for them. Ken Paxton 2:29:13.600 --> 2:29:17.279 is investigating Act Blue. Act Blue is a major donation 2:29:17.400 --> 2:29:21.520 website for Democratic candidates, is claiming that they have continued 2:29:21.560 --> 2:29:27.120 to accept gift card donations, which could hide donations from 2:29:27.440 --> 2:29:31.560 foreign individuals or corporations or even states. I suppose the 2:29:32.040 --> 2:29:35.680 United States government's plans to send Afghans who are stuck 2:29:35.720 --> 2:29:39.320 in limbo in Kata to the Democratic Republic of Congo 2:29:40.000 --> 2:29:43.000 being reported on by the New York Times. Just for 2:29:43.120 --> 2:29:45.920 some context here, I saw people sharing this and thinking 2:29:46.400 --> 2:29:49.560 that they that this referred to Afghan SIV recipient who 2:29:49.560 --> 2:29:51.960 a resident in the United States. That is not what 2:29:51.959 --> 2:29:54.400 it's referring to. It's referring to people who the Biden 2:29:54.440 --> 2:29:59.760 administration removed from Afghanistan or wherever they worked in Pakistan 2:30:00.560 --> 2:30:02.480 and then took them to kata As like a temporary 2:30:02.480 --> 2:30:05.119 stopping off point where they would continue to do their 2:30:05.200 --> 2:30:08.480 vetting and background checks. This is normal for refugee admissions 2:30:08.520 --> 2:30:12.720 as opposed to asylum admissions. And then the twenty twenty 2:30:12.760 --> 2:30:15.000 four election have been Democrats lost, and that people have 2:30:15.040 --> 2:30:17.080 been in limbo ever since, and it appears to Trump 2:30:17.120 --> 2:30:20.120 administration has been trying to get them various states in 2:30:20.160 --> 2:30:23.320 Africa to accept them, and it's now proposing the Democratic 2:30:23.360 --> 2:30:26.480 Republic of Congo, a country which already has a significant 2:30:26.520 --> 2:30:27.520 refugee crisis. 2:30:28.280 --> 2:30:31.800 Ron Decentis, who is term limited as governor, has been 2:30:31.879 --> 2:30:36.040 jockeying for a position inside the Trump administration. Axios reports 2:30:36.080 --> 2:30:39.160 Dessentis has expressed interest in being a Secretary of War, 2:30:39.400 --> 2:30:45.280 attorney general, or even a Supreme Court justice. Trump is 2:30:45.320 --> 2:30:50.080 expected to reclassify marijuana as soon as maybe today. We're 2:30:50.120 --> 2:30:52.440 recording this on Wednesday, April twenty second. 2:30:52.600 --> 2:30:54.360 Fingers crossed earlier this. 2:30:54.320 --> 2:30:56.720 Week Trump signed an executive order to advance its psychedelic 2:30:56.800 --> 2:31:00.800 treatment for mental illness and possibly reschedule certainly substances which 2:31:00.840 --> 2:31:03.080 have completed phase three clinical trials. 2:31:03.440 --> 2:31:03.640 Yeah. 2:31:03.680 --> 2:31:06.200 This, this is the real sign that their internal polling 2:31:06.240 --> 2:31:09.359 is showing Trump really closing on getting blow thirty percent approval. 2:31:09.720 --> 2:31:14.880 That's that's the most whatever gets. It's actual legal marijuana. 2:31:15.040 --> 2:31:18.160 Fuck it. Yeah, Like at this point. 2:31:18.320 --> 2:31:20.400 It's such an easy win, and it's been an easy 2:31:20.440 --> 2:31:23.560 win for the last three presidents, and anyone could have 2:31:23.640 --> 2:31:24.759 done it. 2:31:24.120 --> 2:31:27.640 It's a gun that's been left on the ground and 2:31:27.959 --> 2:31:30.680 fucking Trump finally just picked the damn thing up after 2:31:30.840 --> 2:31:32.920 it got covered in an inch and a half at dust. 2:31:33.480 --> 2:31:34.720 Like unbelievable. 2:31:35.160 --> 2:31:37.720 They're desperate, keep pushing. We can get like completely legal 2:31:37.720 --> 2:31:39.640 ELOSD I believe in us m hmm. 2:31:40.480 --> 2:31:44.520 On Fox News' Sunday Morning Show, Cash Burttel announced that 2:31:44.520 --> 2:31:48.080 the FBI will soon make arrests related to Trump's claims 2:31:48.200 --> 2:31:52.320 that the twenty twenty election was stolen, with Patel saying, quote, 2:31:52.560 --> 2:31:56.359 they tried to thwart our elections and rig the entire system. 2:31:56.760 --> 2:31:58.879 I can announce on your show that we've got all 2:31:58.920 --> 2:32:01.520 the information we need We're working with our prosecutors, a 2:32:01.600 --> 2:32:04.360 Department of Justice and their Attorney General, Todd Blanche and 2:32:04.480 --> 2:32:07.400 we are going to be making arrest and it's coming, 2:32:07.440 --> 2:32:09.360 and I promise you it's coming soon. 2:32:10.040 --> 2:32:14.200 Bettel later said it's a conspiracy case and that quote, 2:32:14.560 --> 2:32:19.680 we have the information to back President Trump's claims. On Tuesday, 2:32:19.840 --> 2:32:23.840 voters in Virginia approved a redistracting measure which would likely 2:32:23.920 --> 2:32:28.080 move four Republican seats to Democrat seats in the midterms. 2:32:28.600 --> 2:32:31.160 This measure passed was fifty one point five percent of 2:32:31.200 --> 2:32:35.560 the vote, totaling over three million votes. Virginia joins California 2:32:35.680 --> 2:32:39.080 in approving new congressional maps to combat the recent gerrymandering 2:32:39.400 --> 2:32:42.640 in red states like Texas. At the behest of Trump, 2:32:43.560 --> 2:32:47.359 but now with Virginia, Dems are actually up one seat nationally. 2:32:47.879 --> 2:32:50.440 Ronda Santis has called for Florida lawmakers to meet next 2:32:50.480 --> 2:32:54.600 week to consider redistricting in their state. Trump has called 2:32:54.640 --> 2:32:58.760 the Virginia election quote unquote rigged, saying that Republicans were 2:32:58.760 --> 2:33:03.920 winning until a quote massive mail in ballot drop quote, 2:33:04.160 --> 2:33:07.840 which is just how elections work. That's just how voting works. 2:33:08.600 --> 2:33:12.199 Yeah, we were winning until more people voted for the other. 2:33:12.280 --> 2:33:14.800 Until we counted more votes that showed that we did 2:33:14.800 --> 2:33:15.160 not win. 2:33:15.800 --> 2:33:19.480 We just live in the twenty sixteen election forever. Now, Yeah, 2:33:19.480 --> 2:33:19.959 it's great. 2:33:20.040 --> 2:33:22.920 I was doing pretty well in that boxing match until 2:33:23.000 --> 2:33:24.080 it started. 2:33:24.480 --> 2:33:26.160 Until the other guy punched me in the face. 2:33:27.160 --> 2:33:30.840 The margin of victory closely matches the result of the 2:33:30.840 --> 2:33:35.400 twenty twenty four presidential election in Virginia. Republicans have challenged 2:33:35.400 --> 2:33:39.360 the Virginia redistricting in court since before today's election, and 2:33:39.400 --> 2:33:41.520 the Supreme Court of Virginia ruled that the measure could 2:33:41.520 --> 2:33:45.040 go to a vote while legal challenges continue. This is 2:33:45.080 --> 2:33:48.160 the second most important election this week, the most important 2:33:48.160 --> 2:33:51.800 one obviously being the Webbys, in which I think we 2:33:52.160 --> 2:33:57.040 can announce we have won Woo in unrigged election matters, 2:33:57.080 --> 2:33:59.800 the only fair election that this country is seen, possibly 2:33:59.840 --> 2:34:01.400 in like over twenty five years. 2:34:01.600 --> 2:34:04.440 That's why they selected Claude as Person of the year. 2:34:05.000 --> 2:34:08.200 Clearly, the Webbees in twenty twenty six are the only 2:34:08.240 --> 2:34:10.320 election that's going to affect anybody's lives. 2:34:10.520 --> 2:34:13.760 I think we can all agree on that anyway. 2:34:14.560 --> 2:34:17.879 So as you probably are aware, because the President shouts 2:34:17.879 --> 2:34:20.840 about it every ten minutes, there's a ceasefire currently in 2:34:20.840 --> 2:34:24.720 effect in the conflict with Iran, the war of choice 2:34:24.720 --> 2:34:26.960 that we started with Iran. James is going to talk 2:34:26.959 --> 2:34:28.600 a little bit more about that in a second. But 2:34:29.320 --> 2:34:32.160 because of the stand down, there's been kind of time 2:34:32.400 --> 2:34:37.360 for both forces to you know, reassess things, and time 2:34:37.400 --> 2:34:40.080 for outside people to reassess like kind of what we 2:34:40.160 --> 2:34:43.800 can tell about what's going on. Obviously, in the immediate 2:34:43.840 --> 2:34:47.560 wake of Operation Epic Fury, and is recently as last Tuesday, 2:34:47.680 --> 2:34:50.680 President Trump said, quote, we've taken out their navy, We've 2:34:50.680 --> 2:34:53.680 taken out their air force, We've taken out their leaders. 2:34:54.280 --> 2:34:58.279 On April eighth, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth called Operation Epic 2:34:58.320 --> 2:35:02.360 Fury a historic and overwhel victory on the battlefield. By 2:35:02.400 --> 2:35:05.879 any measure, Epic Fury decimated Iran's military and rendered it 2:35:05.920 --> 2:35:09.640 combat and effective for years to come. Now, that last sentence, 2:35:10.000 --> 2:35:13.039 the first part is technically accurate. 2:35:12.600 --> 2:35:14.640 But not in the way that hegseeth means. 2:35:15.000 --> 2:35:16.880 No one knows what decimate means anymore. 2:35:16.959 --> 2:35:21.360 Decimate literally means to destroy like a tenth of a group. Yeah, right, yea, 2:35:21.840 --> 2:35:25.080 And yeah, that's pretty accurate, right, But the second part 2:35:25.080 --> 2:35:27.720 of that sentence rendered it combat and effective for years 2:35:27.760 --> 2:35:30.680 to come is not accurate. Neither is Trump's statement that 2:35:30.680 --> 2:35:34.039 we've taken out their navy and their air force. CBS 2:35:34.080 --> 2:35:39.080 published an article today reporting that roughly sixty percent of 2:35:39.120 --> 2:35:42.360 the naval arm of the Islamic Revolutionary guardcore is still 2:35:42.360 --> 2:35:47.600 in existence, including fast tag speedboats and Iranian air power, 2:35:47.640 --> 2:35:51.240 while it's been degraded, is still significantly more functional than 2:35:51.280 --> 2:35:54.680 actually I had assumed. About two thirds of the Iranian 2:35:54.720 --> 2:35:58.920 Air Force is still believed to be operational, despite the 2:35:59.040 --> 2:36:02.840 massive US in his Israeli air strikes largely targeting air 2:36:02.920 --> 2:36:06.920 production and storage facilities. The fact that you're looking at 2:36:07.000 --> 2:36:12.080 two thirds of Iran's navy and air force still functional 2:36:12.440 --> 2:36:15.760 and at least about half their ballistic missile stockpile and 2:36:15.800 --> 2:36:22.000 their launch system stockpile intact. That's a significant difference from 2:36:22.000 --> 2:36:25.600 what the administration has claimed and evidence that where we 2:36:25.680 --> 2:36:28.959 to continue to press with the open fighting part of 2:36:28.959 --> 2:36:33.320 this conflict, it would be years probably before you're talking 2:36:33.400 --> 2:36:37.200 about like a complete degradation of Iranian fighting capability if 2:36:37.200 --> 2:36:41.000 that was ever achieved, Like when you factor in the 2:36:41.120 --> 2:36:44.039 United States would continue to suffer casualties, and we've already 2:36:44.040 --> 2:36:48.480 been losing more of, you know, particularly our interceptor missile 2:36:48.520 --> 2:36:51.000 capability and a number of advanced systems like a wax, 2:36:51.200 --> 2:36:53.160 then we can afford to replace James. 2:36:53.760 --> 2:36:55.640 Yeah, so I want to talk a little bit about 2:36:55.720 --> 2:36:59.720 the cease fire itself, right, and then like what's been 2:36:59.760 --> 2:37:02.520 happening there. Let's start with, like I guess straight off, 2:37:02.480 --> 2:37:05.800 horn moves updates and then get into the CISFAR. The 2:37:05.959 --> 2:37:11.680 Navy intercepted an Iranian vessel in the Arabian Sea this week, 2:37:12.160 --> 2:37:16.800 close to the Iran Pakistan border. The Tuska was warned. 2:37:17.200 --> 2:37:19.600 Imagine they use an l rad to warn it. People 2:37:19.600 --> 2:37:21.680 see l rads on ships sometimes I think they're coming 2:37:21.680 --> 2:37:23.600 to like make you deaf. That's one of the reasons 2:37:23.640 --> 2:37:25.600 of ships have lrads. They could have also used the 2:37:25.680 --> 2:37:27.400 radio that if they can talk to them on the 2:37:27.480 --> 2:37:30.840 radio of their receiving communications with the radio. They then 2:37:30.959 --> 2:37:35.000 ordered it to evacuate its engine room. They then shot 2:37:35.040 --> 2:37:37.760 out its engine with the five inch gun. 2:37:38.240 --> 2:37:40.560 First time they've gotten to do that in forty years. 2:37:40.640 --> 2:37:42.520 Yeah, I was looking at it. I guess it was 2:37:42.959 --> 2:37:45.520 it was since what nineteen eighty eight, the last time 2:37:45.560 --> 2:37:48.240 that I was thinking it's It's been a lot. It's 2:37:48.240 --> 2:37:50.480 been a minute since the ship engaged inner the ship 2:37:50.480 --> 2:37:53.560 with its main gun. It was a USS Spruance, it 2:37:53.640 --> 2:37:57.160 guided missile destroyer that did that. Subsequently, US marines on 2:37:57.200 --> 2:38:00.640 the Tripoli we were posted on when the Tripoli first 2:38:01.400 --> 2:38:02.560 move towards that region. 2:38:02.680 --> 2:38:02.840 Right. 2:38:03.080 --> 2:38:05.600 We specifically said that this is one of the capacities 2:38:05.600 --> 2:38:09.560 that it had they boarded the ship, so they transferred 2:38:09.640 --> 2:38:12.320 a helicopter and then boarded the ship. The US has 2:38:12.400 --> 2:38:16.400 since inspected other ships, including outside of the Saint Comeo. 2:38:16.879 --> 2:38:21.320 So the US perceives its blockade to be global right 2:38:21.600 --> 2:38:26.920 of Iranian assets, of Iranian vessels and the quote unquote 2:38:27.040 --> 2:38:29.680 shadow fleet, which you've already explained on ED, so I'm 2:38:29.680 --> 2:38:31.920 not going to go into depth on what that means. 2:38:32.280 --> 2:38:35.520 The IOGC also fired at several vessels in the street. 2:38:36.360 --> 2:38:39.760 There is some reporting that one of them, an Indian tanker, 2:38:40.120 --> 2:38:43.560 had paid a fee in cryptocurrency to what turned out 2:38:43.600 --> 2:38:46.600 to be a scammer. I am certain that these scams 2:38:46.640 --> 2:38:50.600 exist because there have been multiple warnings of them. I 2:38:50.879 --> 2:38:55.240 haven't seen any evidence that is satisfactory enough for me 2:38:55.400 --> 2:38:59.120 to be confident that that particular ship had been scammed. 2:39:00.120 --> 2:39:02.440 The most compelling piece of evidence. A ship is called 2:39:02.480 --> 2:39:06.360 the San Mar Herald. Is this audio that we're going 2:39:06.360 --> 2:39:07.080 to play right here? 2:39:07.720 --> 2:39:11.520 If my navy sefi naby, is this modeling a san Mada? 2:39:11.720 --> 2:39:12.960 You give me Clarence to go? 2:39:13.640 --> 2:39:15.600 My name second on your list. 2:39:16.360 --> 2:39:17.520 You get me Clarence to go. 2:39:17.680 --> 2:39:20.760 You are fighting now, let me turn back, just to 2:39:20.840 --> 2:39:22.800 guess I wasn't clear. You gave me clearance to go. 2:39:23.000 --> 2:39:25.920 You're firing now, let me turn back. So it does 2:39:26.040 --> 2:39:29.360 seem that that vessel believe that it had clearance to 2:39:29.440 --> 2:39:32.840 go and was sent fire upon this morning. There was 2:39:32.920 --> 2:39:37.280 some ocynth pictures of IIGC and they looked like kind 2:39:37.280 --> 2:39:39.160 of fast attack boats kind of things. Throughout what was 2:39:39.160 --> 2:39:42.240 talking about in the straight up horn mus Yeah, something 2:39:42.360 --> 2:39:47.920 of a flex Yay, we still have a navy like yeah, yeah, yeah. 2:39:48.400 --> 2:39:50.160 I think that's important in the context of the ceasefire. 2:39:50.200 --> 2:39:52.320 I want to explain very briefly, there's been a lot 2:39:52.320 --> 2:39:55.600 of contradictory reporting on when, where, and how negotiations are 2:39:55.600 --> 2:39:57.840 going to happen. It cease fire was set to expire 2:39:57.879 --> 2:40:01.240 the day we're recording Wednesday. On Tuesday, we saw Donald 2:40:01.280 --> 2:40:05.240 Trump laterally extend the ceasefire by truthing quote based on 2:40:05.320 --> 2:40:07.600 the fact that the government of Iran is seriously fractured, 2:40:07.800 --> 2:40:11.760 not unexpectedly so, and upon the request of Field Marshal 2:40:12.040 --> 2:40:16.200 Simonia and Prime Minister Shabaz Sharif of Pakistan, we have 2:40:16.360 --> 2:40:18.360 been asked to hold our attack on the country of 2:40:18.400 --> 2:40:21.039 Iran until such time as their leaders and representatives can 2:40:21.080 --> 2:40:24.119 come up with a unified proposal. I have therefore directed 2:40:24.120 --> 2:40:27.080 our military to continue the blockade and in all other 2:40:27.280 --> 2:40:30.360 respects remain ready and able, and will therefore extend the 2:40:30.400 --> 2:40:33.160 cease fire until such time as their proposal hast submitted 2:40:33.160 --> 2:40:36.560 and discussions are concluded one way or the other. President 2:40:36.600 --> 2:40:39.720 Donald J. Trump, the consensus seems to me that this 2:40:39.840 --> 2:40:43.000 is not like an infinite extension. This is like maybe 2:40:43.080 --> 2:40:46.840 less than a week for Iran to either comply with 2:40:47.040 --> 2:40:50.680 US terms or submit proposals in the US considers acceptable. 2:40:51.400 --> 2:40:53.160 A lot of that reporting does seem to come from 2:40:53.160 --> 2:40:56.200 Barack Revied, who's not really good at journalism, so take 2:40:56.240 --> 2:40:59.320 it with the pinch of salt. Trump, though, is correct 2:40:59.760 --> 2:41:03.240 that the state of Iran is on a unified entity, 2:41:03.840 --> 2:41:06.520 and I covered this in the piece I did last 2:41:06.600 --> 2:41:08.600 week on an update on the Iran war, Right, Like, 2:41:09.520 --> 2:41:12.760 I think there's a tendency from people in the global 2:41:12.840 --> 2:41:14.560 North to look at a state and see it as 2:41:14.600 --> 2:41:17.360 like a pyramid. Right, you have the head of state, 2:41:17.720 --> 2:41:20.439 and then you have government, and then you have legislature, 2:41:20.440 --> 2:41:22.359 and then you have the people they commanded, right, military 2:41:22.600 --> 2:41:26.680 and all the civil bureaucracy. That's not quite how Iran works. 2:41:27.360 --> 2:41:30.240 And I went into more detail in that episode that 2:41:30.280 --> 2:41:31.800 I made, so I'm not going to go into it here, 2:41:32.800 --> 2:41:36.480 but there are a series of overlapping but not entirely 2:41:36.600 --> 2:41:41.240 aligned power centers within Iran and within its military capacity, 2:41:41.360 --> 2:41:44.440 both within its military and the traditional sense, and within 2:41:44.520 --> 2:41:48.320 the IIGC. Why this is relevant to the negotiations is 2:41:48.360 --> 2:41:50.800 it it's not possible for politicians to negotiate if they 2:41:50.840 --> 2:41:54.600 do not believe that they can agree to terms and 2:41:54.800 --> 2:41:57.520 that their military will then comply with those terms. 2:41:58.160 --> 2:41:58.280 Right. 2:41:58.720 --> 2:42:01.960 If the Iranian Foreign Ministry agrees with the US to 2:42:02.000 --> 2:42:04.440 do something, the IGC doesn't do it, that then immediately 2:42:04.560 --> 2:42:06.480 undermines any further negotiations. 2:42:06.560 --> 2:42:06.680 Right. 2:42:07.120 --> 2:42:10.000 So when we see, for instance, this morning, a large 2:42:10.040 --> 2:42:13.199 number of boats going into straight upform news that looks 2:42:13.240 --> 2:42:15.960 a little bit like a flex right, in the context 2:42:16.040 --> 2:42:18.760 of this power struggle, in the context of Trump acknowledging 2:42:19.360 --> 2:42:23.879 that Trump has once again been truthing this week about 2:42:24.879 --> 2:42:27.840 Iranian nuclear weapons. I'm just going to read one of 2:42:27.920 --> 2:42:31.360 his truths because I think it contained. It shows that 2:42:31.440 --> 2:42:35.320 the administration feels that it is weak on this particular accusation. 2:42:36.600 --> 2:42:39.720 Israel never took me into the war with Iran. The 2:42:39.800 --> 2:42:42.600 results of October seventh added to my lifelong opinion that 2:42:42.680 --> 2:42:46.800 Iran can never have a nuclear weapon. Did Yeah, I 2:42:46.840 --> 2:42:48.200 don't know what's going on with that sentence. 2:42:48.879 --> 2:42:51.680 That's just that's that's Iran can never have a nuclear 2:42:51.720 --> 2:42:54.879 weapon in karmadd did the word did? 2:42:55.240 --> 2:42:55.440 Yeah? 2:42:56.240 --> 2:42:58.800 Yeah, I'm not reading that wrong. Yes, just it's to 2:42:58.879 --> 2:42:59.959 hang out just what it said. 2:43:00.320 --> 2:43:02.440 Yeah, he's simply senile. 2:43:02.600 --> 2:43:05.200 I can't help you. I'm just saying the words. I 2:43:05.280 --> 2:43:07.640 watch it and read the fake news pundits and polls 2:43:07.720 --> 2:43:10.840 in total disbelief. Ninety percent of what they say are 2:43:10.920 --> 2:43:13.480 lies and made up stories, and the polls are rigged, 2:43:13.920 --> 2:43:16.560 much as a twenty to twenty presidential election was rigged, 2:43:16.760 --> 2:43:19.280 just like the results in Venezuela, which the media doesn't 2:43:19.360 --> 2:43:22.120 like talking about the results in Iran. Will be amazing 2:43:22.920 --> 2:43:26.600 and if arounds new leaders, regime chains, exclamation mark clothes, 2:43:26.800 --> 2:43:31.440 parentheses are smart, Iran can have a great and prosperous future. 2:43:31.760 --> 2:43:35.400 President DJT. That's one of the more challenging passages of 2:43:35.440 --> 2:43:40.080 English language texts that I've ever approached. I speak four 2:43:40.200 --> 2:43:43.520 or five languages, and that's that's speak set me back, 2:43:43.959 --> 2:43:46.039 But I've tried to give you a good faith reading 2:43:46.120 --> 2:43:51.560 of it. He's clearly sensitive to the allegation that Israel 2:43:52.080 --> 2:43:53.560 pushed the US into this conflict. 2:43:53.640 --> 2:43:55.400 Rant He's clearly sensitive. 2:43:57.640 --> 2:44:00.720 The last thing that I want to add is that 2:44:00.879 --> 2:44:05.440 strikes on Kurdish groups have continued despite the ceasefire, right 2:44:05.520 --> 2:44:11.240 despite the renewed ceasefire the PAK. Just two hours after 2:44:11.280 --> 2:44:15.280 Trump announced the extension of the ceasefire, Tehran sent four 2:44:15.480 --> 2:44:19.160 drones to attack a PAK base. There have been more 2:44:19.240 --> 2:44:24.320 injuries in Kurdistan. It doesn't seem that Iran considers any 2:44:24.440 --> 2:44:27.640 ceasefire to apply to its ongoing attack against the Deutroy 2:44:27.680 --> 2:44:30.520 Dulati groups who are currently in southern Kurdistan inside the 2:44:30.560 --> 2:44:31.240 borders of Iraq. 2:44:32.240 --> 2:44:35.440 Next up, we will discuss the charges against the SPLC, 2:44:35.840 --> 2:44:50.880 But first listen to these acts. Okay, we are back. 2:44:52.280 --> 2:44:56.279 On Tuesday, April twenty, first Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche 2:44:56.360 --> 2:44:59.680 and FBI Director Cash Battel announced that a grand jury 2:45:00.000 --> 2:45:04.160 indited the Southern Poverty Law Center on eleven counts, including 2:45:04.280 --> 2:45:07.160 wire fraud, false statements to a federally insured bank, and 2:45:07.280 --> 2:45:11.800 conspiracy to commit to concealment money laundering. The indictment argues 2:45:11.840 --> 2:45:15.199 that the SPLC defrauded their donors by using donation money 2:45:15.600 --> 2:45:20.640 to pay confidential informants within white supremacist or neo Nazi organizations. 2:45:21.600 --> 2:45:23.880 Here is a short clip of the press conference of 2:45:23.959 --> 2:45:27.840 a reporter asking Todd Blanche a question, I just want 2:45:27.840 --> 2:45:28.240 to make sure. 2:45:28.120 --> 2:45:31.840 I understand you're alleging that the Southern Poverty Law Center 2:45:32.400 --> 2:45:37.880 was paying the leaders of KKK and other groups to continue. 2:45:38.959 --> 2:45:39.800 Their operations. 2:45:39.920 --> 2:45:42.200 Is that I'm not alleging it. The grandeury return and 2:45:42.280 --> 2:45:46.320 indictment that says that. And so what the investigation found, 2:45:46.360 --> 2:45:49.640 according to the indictment that was returned today, is that 2:45:49.720 --> 2:45:52.600 they were paying. So the Southern Poverty Law Center is 2:45:52.720 --> 2:45:56.800 raising money, asking folks to give them money to dismount racism, 2:45:57.040 --> 2:45:59.879 and over a very long period of time, they were 2:46:00.080 --> 2:46:02.240 using some of the money they raised from donors to 2:46:02.720 --> 2:46:06.120 pay to they call them feel you know, basically to 2:46:06.520 --> 2:46:12.200 informants for information, for access, to just pay them for 2:46:13.400 --> 2:46:16.840 certain to do certain things. And so yes, that's exactly 2:46:16.879 --> 2:46:17.879 what the indictment charges. 2:46:18.920 --> 2:46:22.800 The SPLC is a nonprofit advocacy organization aimed at quote 2:46:22.840 --> 2:46:27.560 unquote dismantling white supremacy and exposing hate. They operate a 2:46:27.600 --> 2:46:30.200 blog called hate Watch and run a public database of 2:46:30.240 --> 2:46:34.280 hate groups and far right extremists. This indictment claims that 2:46:34.360 --> 2:46:37.960 the SPLC has utilized informants to gained information on far 2:46:38.080 --> 2:46:42.200 right activity since the eighties, but between twenty fourteen and 2:46:42.360 --> 2:46:46.560 twenty twenty three, the SPLC secretly paid over three million 2:46:46.680 --> 2:46:50.879 dollars to individuals associated with various violent extriist groups quote 2:46:50.920 --> 2:46:53.400 unquote in a clandestine manner. 2:46:54.440 --> 2:46:54.680 Yeah. 2:46:55.120 --> 2:46:57.240 No, one, if you kind of have been in the 2:46:57.680 --> 2:47:02.960 world of CVE counting violent extremism like research or like 2:47:03.480 --> 2:47:07.640 involved in NGOs in that sphere at all, or a 2:47:07.720 --> 2:47:10.560 been a researcher there, you're probably aware of the fact 2:47:10.560 --> 2:47:13.600 that the SPLC, like has been paying informants. A lot 2:47:13.640 --> 2:47:17.279 of their scoops are because some Nazi tells on another 2:47:17.480 --> 2:47:22.520 Nazi essentially right yeah, so that part isn't surprising. The 2:47:22.680 --> 2:47:25.560 weirdness is how the SPLC was going about it and 2:47:25.720 --> 2:47:28.039 how much fucking money they were giving some of these 2:47:28.280 --> 2:47:31.000 The amounts of some of these is yeah, it was 2:47:31.280 --> 2:47:34.000 legitimately shocking, and I do want to get into some 2:47:34.040 --> 2:47:36.120 more details about those amounts in the groups and the 2:47:36.280 --> 2:47:41.880 sort of nest of fake businesses the SPLC used to distribute. 2:47:41.320 --> 2:47:45.000 This money, according to the indictment. The indictment reads that 2:47:45.160 --> 2:47:49.240 this was donation money quote received under the auspice that 2:47:49.440 --> 2:47:51.959 the funds would be used to quote unquote dismantle violent 2:47:52.000 --> 2:47:54.840 ex rivist groups. This money was instead being used in 2:47:54.959 --> 2:47:58.400 part by the SPLC to pay leaders and others within 2:47:58.680 --> 2:48:01.920 these same violenctricy humis groups. That money was then used 2:48:01.959 --> 2:48:04.640 for the benefit of the individuals as well as the 2:48:04.760 --> 2:48:09.400 violent extremist groups unquote. Money was funneled to individuals associated 2:48:09.400 --> 2:48:12.440 with violent extreamist groups, including the klu Klux Klan, the 2:48:12.560 --> 2:48:16.840 United Clans of America, Unite the Right National Alliance, National 2:48:16.920 --> 2:48:21.800 Socialist Movement, Aryan Nations, and the affiliated Sadistic Soul's Motorcycle Club, 2:48:22.320 --> 2:48:27.240 National Socialist Party of America, American Nazi Party, and American Front. 2:48:28.040 --> 2:48:31.760 One informant, according to the indictment, was quote a member 2:48:31.879 --> 2:48:35.959 of the online leadership chat group that planned the twenty 2:48:36.080 --> 2:48:40.240 seventeen Unite the Right event in Charlottesville, Virginia, and attended 2:48:40.280 --> 2:48:44.279 the event at the direction of the SPLC. This informant 2:48:44.360 --> 2:48:47.520 made racist postings under the supervision of the SPLC and 2:48:47.640 --> 2:48:52.200 helped coordinate transportation to the event for several attendees. Between 2:48:52.200 --> 2:48:54.920 twenty fifteen and twenty twenty three, the SPLC secretly paid 2:48:54.959 --> 2:48:58.560 this informant more than two hundred and seventy thousand dollars 2:49:00.200 --> 2:49:02.680 from twenty fourteen to twenty twenty three. More than one 2:49:02.760 --> 2:49:05.640 million dollars was allegedly paid to someone affiliated with the 2:49:05.760 --> 2:49:09.119 National Alliance who served as an informant for over twenty 2:49:09.200 --> 2:49:13.920 years while fundraising for this Nazi group. The Imperial Wizard 2:49:14.080 --> 2:49:17.959 of the Rebooted Imperial Clans of America was a paid 2:49:18.000 --> 2:49:20.760 informant according to the indictment. This is likely a guy 2:49:20.840 --> 2:49:25.480 named Bradley Jenkins, an officer in the National Socialist Movement 2:49:25.640 --> 2:49:29.920 and the Aryan Nations affiliated Sadistic Souls Motorcycle Club, secretly 2:49:30.120 --> 2:49:33.359 received more than three hundred thousand dollars between twenty fourteen 2:49:33.440 --> 2:49:36.600 and twenty twenty, the former chairman of the National Alliance 2:49:36.680 --> 2:49:38.880 was secretly paid more than one hundred and forty thousand dollars, 2:49:39.480 --> 2:49:43.680 while the SPLC website featured an extremist profile page for 2:49:44.040 --> 2:49:48.280 this individual, likely Eric Glebe. The SPLC also paid the 2:49:48.320 --> 2:49:51.640 leader of the National Socialist Party of America seventy thousand 2:49:51.680 --> 2:49:55.480 dollars between twenty fourteen to twenty sixteen. This individual was 2:49:55.520 --> 2:49:58.600 a former director of an Aryan Nations faction and a 2:49:58.720 --> 2:50:01.440 former member of the CAKE. This is likely a guy 2:50:01.520 --> 2:50:05.760 named Paul Mullett, who the SBLC hosts an extremist file 2:50:05.840 --> 2:50:10.400 web page on their website. A few other unidentified informants 2:50:10.440 --> 2:50:12.880 are listed in the indictment, as well as a claim 2:50:13.040 --> 2:50:15.720 that the SBLC funneled more than one hundred and sixty 2:50:15.800 --> 2:50:19.320 thousand dollars from a fictitious entity to an informant quote, 2:50:19.720 --> 2:50:23.400 who then sent funds to various violent extremist group leaders, 2:50:23.800 --> 2:50:26.760 including the former Grand Wizard of the Knights of the 2:50:26.840 --> 2:50:30.000 klu Klux Klan unquote. That's a lot of money. 2:50:30.760 --> 2:50:30.880 Now. 2:50:30.959 --> 2:50:34.000 To obscure the nature of these payments, the SBLC opened 2:50:34.000 --> 2:50:38.039 a series of bank accounts at multiple banks for various 2:50:38.320 --> 2:50:42.640 fictitious businesses. These weren't actually incorporated, but they claimed to 2:50:42.720 --> 2:50:47.840 be businesses with names like The Center Investigative Agency or 2:50:47.920 --> 2:50:56.320 the CIA, Why Yeah, Fox Photography, Northwest Technologies, Tech Writers Group, 2:50:56.560 --> 2:51:02.279 Rare Books, Warehouse Imagery, Inc. Ja JA Electronics, Kelly's Marine, 2:51:02.680 --> 2:51:04.680 and Turner Personnel. 2:51:04.400 --> 2:51:05.960 Great Good Work Guys. 2:51:07.080 --> 2:51:11.160 Essentially, the DOJ is arguing that the SBLC solicited donations 2:51:11.320 --> 2:51:15.600 under false pretenses and then transferred that money to extremist 2:51:15.680 --> 2:51:19.520 groups using a network of fake businesses. To get a conviction, 2:51:19.760 --> 2:51:23.400 the dog will have to argue that this activity constitutes wirefraud, 2:51:23.680 --> 2:51:26.680 false statements to a federally insured bank, and conspiracy to 2:51:26.680 --> 2:51:30.600 commit concealment money laundering. A conviction will result in the 2:51:30.640 --> 2:51:35.320 forfeiture of financial gains from the alleged illegal activities. The 2:51:35.480 --> 2:51:39.440 right has reacted to this news by calling the Unite 2:51:39.480 --> 2:51:42.440 the Right rally and kind of the alt right movement 2:51:42.680 --> 2:51:46.280 as it existed from this time period a syop or 2:51:46.400 --> 2:51:50.560 a false flag. Senator Mike Lee, right wing political influencer 2:51:50.720 --> 2:51:54.160 Nick Sorter, and Elon Musk have boosted these claims, getting 2:51:54.240 --> 2:51:57.840 tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands alikes on x 2:51:58.040 --> 2:52:01.840 Everything app This seems to be a narrative. It's not 2:52:01.920 --> 2:52:04.640 really new, I guess, but an enhanced narrative that is 2:52:04.680 --> 2:52:08.240 emerging among the online right as a way to dissuade 2:52:08.320 --> 2:52:11.560 some of the uglier parts of that era, while still 2:52:11.640 --> 2:52:14.040 carrying along a lot of the same politics, especially on 2:52:14.240 --> 2:52:16.519 like the Great Replacement, which is more of a mainstream 2:52:16.560 --> 2:52:20.560 idea among the conservative movement at this point in time, 2:52:21.280 --> 2:52:24.520 so they're able to walk away from the uglier kind 2:52:24.520 --> 2:52:27.320 of imagery and explicitly notz the elements of this like 2:52:27.959 --> 2:52:30.520 the KKK, which is very boomer very very very Boomer 2:52:30.600 --> 2:52:33.720 coded k the KKK, so they're able to call stuff 2:52:33.760 --> 2:52:35.800 like that and the Unite the Right rally of syop 2:52:36.120 --> 2:52:38.880 or a false flag while still reaping the benefits that 2:52:38.920 --> 2:52:42.160 the alt right movement achieved by kind of trailblazing certain 2:52:42.240 --> 2:52:46.560 rhetoric into the conservative mainstream. Right wing commentators have also 2:52:46.680 --> 2:52:49.480 used this news to reassert one of their favorite claims 2:52:49.560 --> 2:52:55.000 that Patriot Front is a psyop or a false flag operation, 2:52:55.879 --> 2:52:59.480 that whenever a group of young Nazis show up in 2:52:59.560 --> 2:53:03.480 a u all all wearing matching outfits and masks, that 2:53:03.600 --> 2:53:06.760 this is a staged event by either the deep State, 2:53:06.879 --> 2:53:10.080 the FEDS, or a group like the SPLC. Patriot Front 2:53:10.120 --> 2:53:12.600 is not actually named in this indictment. There's no evidence 2:53:12.680 --> 2:53:16.680 that the SPLC was paying anyone at Patriot Front to 2:53:16.840 --> 2:53:20.560 inform on the operations of that group, and obviously paying 2:53:20.640 --> 2:53:25.560 an individual to inform on the details of an upcoming 2:53:25.760 --> 2:53:28.800 event like Unite the Right does not mean that the 2:53:28.959 --> 2:53:33.359 Unite the Right event in Charlottesville was planned or staged 2:53:33.480 --> 2:53:37.480 by the SPLC. Dozens of people were involved in the 2:53:37.560 --> 2:53:42.120 planning of this event, and hundreds participated of their own volition. 2:53:42.760 --> 2:53:46.080 One person in a planning group chat sending info to 2:53:46.120 --> 2:53:50.279 the SPLC does not mean that this action was staged 2:53:50.440 --> 2:53:51.080 or fake. 2:53:52.000 --> 2:53:54.560 Anyone who's in the field has that a lot of 2:53:54.920 --> 2:53:57.440 issues with the SPLC over the last few years, especially 2:53:57.440 --> 2:53:58.800 people who work for them. I have a lot of 2:53:59.040 --> 2:54:01.080 I know a lot of people have worked for them 2:54:01.120 --> 2:54:02.720 and gotten fucked over by them. They did a lot 2:54:02.760 --> 2:54:06.400 of union busting too. The people who run the SPLC, 2:54:06.760 --> 2:54:09.000 and some of whom are the people who are specifically 2:54:09.080 --> 2:54:12.840 accused of having committed these crimes. I don't know if 2:54:12.920 --> 2:54:16.440 I feel like that like the specific things they have 2:54:16.600 --> 2:54:19.840 to prove in order to date a conviction are accurate 2:54:19.920 --> 2:54:23.520 because fundamentally, anyone who donated to the SPLC knew that 2:54:23.600 --> 2:54:26.920 they were like getting shipped from informants. You know, like, 2:54:27.080 --> 2:54:29.160 I don't think that was like the amount of money though, 2:54:29.280 --> 2:54:29.800 is shocking. 2:54:30.240 --> 2:54:31.840 That's what the That's what they're gonna have to defend 2:54:31.879 --> 2:54:34.000 in court. Yeah, they're gonna have to hard and have 2:54:34.040 --> 2:54:38.039 to argue that the money that was donated was used 2:54:38.120 --> 2:54:40.959 for its intended purpose, which was dismantling whit's premisies. You'll 2:54:40.959 --> 2:54:43.720 have to say that the information that they obtained through 2:54:43.879 --> 2:54:47.480 these through through paying these informants, was still in furtherance 2:54:47.520 --> 2:54:49.160 of that mission. Right, That's going to be what they're 2:54:49.200 --> 2:54:50.080 going to defend in court. 2:54:50.240 --> 2:54:50.360 Now. 2:54:50.640 --> 2:54:54.400 You know, obviously the FBI also uses information, sure, right, 2:54:54.440 --> 2:54:57.480 the FBI does this same thing. Famously, the FBI paid 2:54:57.520 --> 2:55:00.720 the OH nine A affiliated Joshua Caleb Sutter over one 2:55:00.840 --> 2:55:03.800 hundred and forty thousand dollars from twenty three to twenty 2:55:03.840 --> 2:55:08.680 twenty one. The FBI funded a publishing house, a neo 2:55:08.760 --> 2:55:13.640 Nazi publishing house essentially yeah yeah, yeah, which is responsible for, 2:55:14.560 --> 2:55:17.880 in part, the political direction of the Adam Off Indivision 2:55:18.040 --> 2:55:20.640 now at Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche has said that 2:55:20.760 --> 2:55:25.400 quote the SPLC is manufacturing racism to justify its existence 2:55:25.959 --> 2:55:29.560 end quote. Using donor money to allegedly profit off klansmen 2:55:29.879 --> 2:55:34.040 cannot go unchecked. Unquote. Patel has said that quote this 2:55:34.200 --> 2:55:37.160 is illegal, and this is an ongoing investigation against all 2:55:37.280 --> 2:55:42.320 individuals involved. The SBLC released a video statement saying that 2:55:42.360 --> 2:55:45.640 the use of informants was quote unquote necessary and claimed 2:55:45.720 --> 2:55:49.680 quote these individuals risked their lives to infiltrate and inform 2:55:49.800 --> 2:55:53.160 on the activities of our nation's most radical and violent 2:55:53.240 --> 2:55:57.400 extremist groups unquote. The indictment does not characterize many of 2:55:57.440 --> 2:56:01.280 these informants as quote unquote infiltrators, but rather individuals who 2:56:01.320 --> 2:56:04.200 were already members of these groups and were paid by 2:56:04.240 --> 2:56:07.840 the SBLC to share information and gossip on fellow members. 2:56:08.959 --> 2:56:13.200 The SBLC statement also said that they quote frequently shared 2:56:13.320 --> 2:56:17.439 what we learned from informants with local and federal law enforcement, 2:56:17.640 --> 2:56:20.959 including the FBI. We did not, however, share our use 2:56:20.959 --> 2:56:23.520 of informants broadly with anyone to protect the identity and 2:56:23.600 --> 2:56:27.680 safety of the informants and their families unquote, like a 2:56:27.720 --> 2:56:29.800 lot of the people in this field. The FBI knew 2:56:29.800 --> 2:56:30.840 the SBLC was doing this. 2:56:31.480 --> 2:56:32.440 Yeah, Yeah. 2:56:32.600 --> 2:56:35.800 After the assassination of Charlie kirk Cash, Betel announced that 2:56:35.840 --> 2:56:39.000 the FBI was severing ties with the SBLC, saying the 2:56:39.120 --> 2:56:42.800 organization had been turned into a quote unquote partisan smear 2:56:42.920 --> 2:56:47.920 machine that defamed quote unquote mainstream Americans with its hate map. 2:56:48.320 --> 2:56:48.640 Okay. 2:56:49.760 --> 2:56:54.240 Attorney Ed Martin, former head of the DOJ's Weaponization Working 2:56:54.320 --> 2:56:58.480 Group as in weaponizing the dj against political enemies, shared 2:56:58.520 --> 2:57:01.360 news of the indictment on x everything app and wrote, quote, 2:57:01.840 --> 2:57:07.400 they killed Charlie and they will pay unquote. So clearly 2:57:07.640 --> 2:57:11.680 this prosecution is politically motivated. Right There is political motivations 2:57:11.720 --> 2:57:15.080 behind deciding to do this right now. The FBI already 2:57:15.160 --> 2:57:18.080 knew that this was happening to a certain extent, but 2:57:18.320 --> 2:57:20.880 now they are going after the SBLC as a part 2:57:21.000 --> 2:57:26.920 of a targeted political prosecution, and this indictment could be 2:57:27.120 --> 2:57:32.920 seen as part of the anti Antifa nonprofit crackdown. Last March, 2:57:33.320 --> 2:57:36.520 CBS News reported that the FBI and the IRS formed 2:57:36.520 --> 2:57:40.320 a new initiative to investigate fraud at nonprofit organizations with 2:57:40.520 --> 2:57:44.760 suspected links to domestic terrorism following federal directives to pursue 2:57:44.800 --> 2:57:49.160 Antifa aligned groups. A spokesperson from the IRS told CBS 2:57:49.240 --> 2:57:54.280 News quote, IRS Criminal Investigation is collaborating with federal law 2:57:54.320 --> 2:57:58.640 enforcement agencies, including the FBI, to investigate individuals and entities 2:57:58.720 --> 2:58:02.880 that may be funding the domestic terrorism or political violence. 2:58:04.480 --> 2:58:08.440 Yeah, it's it's unfortunate that the SPLC was so reckless 2:58:08.640 --> 2:58:14.000 and sloppy, and the fucking amounts are shocking and indefensible 2:58:14.080 --> 2:58:17.320 and again not necessarily in a legal sense. Like I'm 2:58:17.480 --> 2:58:21.640 very doubtful of the government's case, but I am very 2:58:22.440 --> 2:58:26.360 angry at the Southern Poverty Law Center, And I don't 2:58:26.520 --> 2:58:29.040 think it should contend you to exist as an organization, 2:58:30.160 --> 2:58:31.320 like if it's going to do this. 2:58:32.280 --> 2:58:34.160 Yeah, and like when you combine this as you say, 2:58:34.280 --> 2:58:37.760 like anyone who works in this world knows people working 2:58:37.800 --> 2:58:39.680 there had a mitiable time for a long time, for 2:58:39.760 --> 2:58:41.240 a great variety of recent time. 2:58:41.560 --> 2:58:42.960 Yeah, I'm livid at them. 2:58:43.080 --> 2:58:46.840 Yeah, this is obviously evidence that the Trump administration is 2:58:46.920 --> 2:58:49.199 doing what they've said they're doing that, Like the DOJ 2:58:49.560 --> 2:58:52.120 is going to be looking into these like big you know, 2:58:52.600 --> 2:58:57.240 liberal and left aligned in goos particularly that like are 2:58:57.280 --> 2:58:59.720 focused on combating the far right, but in terms of 2:58:59.840 --> 2:59:02.600 this showing any reason to be scared that they're going 2:59:02.680 --> 2:59:06.520 to disappear people like, no, the SPOC did something crazy, 2:59:07.040 --> 2:59:11.480 and I don't think that the charges specifically are valid, 2:59:11.640 --> 2:59:14.720 but like they open themselves up to get fucked with 2:59:14.959 --> 2:59:17.240 by doing something so not like give one of these 2:59:17.240 --> 2:59:22.440 people a million dollars a million dollars, Yeah, that's wild. 2:59:23.240 --> 2:59:26.040 Yeah, why do they have a fake company named after 2:59:26.120 --> 2:59:26.760 the CIA? 2:59:26.920 --> 2:59:28.039 What are you guys doing? 2:59:28.520 --> 2:59:32.000 Yeah, someone thought they were being a really cool secret spy. 2:59:32.800 --> 2:59:34.680 And I mean those are some of the charges that 2:59:34.800 --> 2:59:36.520 may be able to stick. Is the sort of stuff 2:59:36.520 --> 2:59:39.680 about misrepresenting yeah to a federally insured bank that that 2:59:39.840 --> 2:59:41.760 type of stuff could be easier to argue based on 2:59:41.879 --> 2:59:45.080 what I've read in the indictment, but of course that'll 2:59:45.120 --> 2:59:46.039 get settled in court. 2:59:46.200 --> 2:59:48.960 Yeah yeah, yeah. And as a way to sort of 2:59:49.040 --> 2:59:50.720 close this out, I think one of the things that 2:59:50.720 --> 2:59:53.520 we're running into here is one of the thing that 2:59:53.560 --> 2:59:55.320 the right is being able to use here is the 2:59:55.400 --> 2:59:57.800 fact that a lot of these sort of liberal in 2:59:57.920 --> 3:00:00.800 central left NGOs absolutely sucked and like we have covered 3:00:00.840 --> 3:00:02.879 on this show, you know, a whole bunch of these 3:00:02.959 --> 3:00:08.320 organizations do in union busting, and they're like, their priorities 3:00:08.640 --> 3:00:13.240 don't necessarily match what you know, I would say ours 3:00:13.360 --> 3:00:15.920 should be. And I think this is something that this 3:00:16.040 --> 3:00:18.560 administration is going to continue to sort of in some 3:00:18.640 --> 3:00:21.520 ways use as a rift point, like the fact that 3:00:21.560 --> 3:00:25.000 these groups are doing all of this in unhinged shit, right, 3:00:26.080 --> 3:00:28.920 this is this is the political consequence of the structure 3:00:29.000 --> 3:00:31.879 that these NGOs use in the way that they've operated, 3:00:32.520 --> 3:00:34.960 and now there's sort of chickens are coming home to roost. 3:00:36.320 --> 3:00:38.440 I want to talk this week in our immigration segment 3:00:38.520 --> 3:00:42.640 about the United States Citizenship and Immigration Service. This is 3:00:42.720 --> 3:00:46.760 the agency task with vetting and adjudicating immigration benefits. It's 3:00:47.600 --> 3:00:51.120 the only immigration agency at DHS. It traditionally hasn't done 3:00:51.280 --> 3:00:56.720 enforcement sweeps right, So for a while, particularly recently, people 3:00:56.800 --> 3:00:59.160 there have felt a little out of place at the 3:00:59.240 --> 3:01:00.600 Department Home Security. 3:01:00.720 --> 3:01:00.840 Right. 3:01:01.280 --> 3:01:04.720 The idea has been keep enforcement and processing separate so 3:01:04.800 --> 3:01:09.200 that people don't have very reasonable reasons to fear doing 3:01:09.280 --> 3:01:11.680 the legal process, right, so that people continue to show 3:01:11.800 --> 3:01:16.400 up to their interviews, to submit their documents, et cetera. Generally, 3:01:16.480 --> 3:01:19.120 they are funded in a large part by immigration fees 3:01:19.760 --> 3:01:22.720 and perceived as the friendly and more welcoming side of 3:01:22.760 --> 3:01:26.280 the process. Their job isn't historically has not been to 3:01:26.400 --> 3:01:30.720 kind of root out bad migration as so much as 3:01:30.800 --> 3:01:34.360 to help people, or at least to process people to 3:01:34.440 --> 3:01:39.520 do the bureaucratic part of migration. Under the second Trump administration, however, 3:01:40.360 --> 3:01:44.280 this has changed. There have been detentions at interviews, there 3:01:44.320 --> 3:01:48.640 have been cancelations of citizenships ceremonies. The USAS has begun 3:01:48.800 --> 3:01:50.760 hiring for a new position, and this new position is 3:01:50.800 --> 3:01:54.320 eligible for remote work, for more remote work than existing hires, 3:01:55.080 --> 3:01:59.360 and it's called the Homeland Defender. So like we probably 3:01:59.480 --> 3:02:03.400 many people have seen these Homeland Defender advertisements on x 3:02:03.480 --> 3:02:06.440 dot com, the everything website right, Homeland Defenders have been 3:02:06.480 --> 3:02:09.480 offered up to fifty thousand dollars in signing bonuses, and 3:02:10.440 --> 3:02:13.120 at the same time as offering remote work benefits for 3:02:13.120 --> 3:02:16.280 the Homeland Defenders, the agency has been forcing other people 3:02:16.360 --> 3:02:19.120 to return to offices that could no longer fit the 3:02:19.240 --> 3:02:22.320 number of staff it had under years of work from home. 3:02:22.440 --> 3:02:25.680 The agency grew and changed right like almost every organization did, 3:02:26.240 --> 3:02:28.680 and there were reports that you literally had like lawyers 3:02:28.760 --> 3:02:32.560 sitting in corridors working on their laptops or like trying 3:02:32.600 --> 3:02:35.320 to perch on a radiator or a window sill because 3:02:35.400 --> 3:02:37.640 their offices could fit people. Right, and at the same time, 3:02:38.720 --> 3:02:41.920 the branding around Homeland Defender is not the way that 3:02:42.120 --> 3:02:47.440 USCIS staff traditionally saw themselves. In Minnesota, USCAS has begun 3:02:47.520 --> 3:02:51.959 reinvestigating people admitted with the incredibly highly vetted refugee status. 3:02:52.000 --> 3:02:53.720 So we already spoke about it once today. Right, the 3:02:53.800 --> 3:02:56.440 refugees are vetted before they even enter the United States. 3:02:57.480 --> 3:03:01.160 Across the country, executive orders will followed with memos pausing 3:03:01.320 --> 3:03:04.520 or entirely stopping the process of legal and veted immigration 3:03:04.959 --> 3:03:08.320 for people from an increasing number of countries. The legally 3:03:08.480 --> 3:03:12.039 mandated green cards for adult children and siblings or current sistants, 3:03:12.040 --> 3:03:15.240 as well as spouses and minor children of existing permanent 3:03:15.320 --> 3:03:22.000 residents has gone unfulfilled. This is quote unquote family based migration. 3:03:22.480 --> 3:03:25.039 They used to call it chain migration. Right. That used 3:03:25.040 --> 3:03:27.160 to be the language on the right. It's something that 3:03:27.280 --> 3:03:30.840 Trump administration has hated since its first term. Right, this 3:03:30.959 --> 3:03:32.960 has been a thing that they spoke about and that 3:03:33.040 --> 3:03:35.160 has been spoken about at the right for some time. 3:03:36.040 --> 3:03:40.280 These green cards could be reused for employment based claims, 3:03:40.320 --> 3:03:42.160 which is going to have a much larger number of 3:03:42.200 --> 3:03:44.320 people who are already in the country. It's not bringing 3:03:44.360 --> 3:03:48.640 new people in or they might go Unused. Refugees are 3:03:48.720 --> 3:03:52.640 being detained without any clear legal authority and requizzed about 3:03:52.680 --> 3:03:56.040 their applications. According to reporting in The New Yorker, this 3:03:56.400 --> 3:04:00.920 means that people are being taken in meaned at an 3:04:01.000 --> 3:04:05.879 ice facility right and then quiz about stuff that they'd 3:04:05.879 --> 3:04:07.840 already been asked about before they came to the United 3:04:07.879 --> 3:04:10.480 States when they were doing that vetting. People who are 3:04:10.840 --> 3:04:13.920 married to United States citizens are being arrested at interviews, 3:04:14.320 --> 3:04:16.800 even though generally there was an amnesty of people who, 3:04:16.840 --> 3:04:19.360 for instance, had overstate a visa and then got married before. 3:04:20.480 --> 3:04:25.560 USCIS has also committed significant resources of the agency that 3:04:25.760 --> 3:04:28.600 may well have been taken away from processing claims and 3:04:28.720 --> 3:04:33.640 devoted them entirely to investigating naturalizations with the goal of 3:04:33.800 --> 3:04:38.320 denaturalizing naturalized United States citizens. This is a very difficult 3:04:38.360 --> 3:04:42.240 process right. The Afreem case is the Supreme Court case 3:04:42.280 --> 3:04:46.040 which governs this right. It refers to someone who was 3:04:46.080 --> 3:04:49.560 a Jewish communist or had been in Israel. What it 3:04:49.600 --> 3:04:52.280 says is the government cannot de citizenize someone because it 3:04:52.320 --> 3:04:54.960 doesn't agree with their politics, even in the time of 3:04:55.480 --> 3:04:59.360 anti communism. Right, Once somebody becomes a citizen in their 3:04:59.440 --> 3:05:03.120 files or remove from USCIS and they go to the 3:05:03.240 --> 3:05:10.160 National Record Center and so calling the presumably tens of 3:05:10.280 --> 3:05:14.400 thousands of files of naturalized United States citizens and hundreds 3:05:14.440 --> 3:05:18.520 of thousands over time millions right would require some kind 3:05:18.600 --> 3:05:21.880 of filter. The most likely way this is being filtered 3:05:22.520 --> 3:05:24.120 is through their nationality. 3:05:24.520 --> 3:05:24.680 Right. 3:05:25.240 --> 3:05:27.760 One can imagine, for instance, that the seventy five countries 3:05:27.760 --> 3:05:30.560 Trump has paused green card processes for might be a start, 3:05:30.760 --> 3:05:34.680 or their specific focus on Somali people might even prove 3:05:35.240 --> 3:05:38.280 a more focused way of doing it right. They have 3:05:38.440 --> 3:05:41.640 had some success this week. A Belizean woman was found 3:05:41.640 --> 3:05:46.080 guilty of naturalization fraud for submitting a fake divorce degree 3:05:46.720 --> 3:05:50.040 She married an American citizen without being divorced from a 3:05:50.120 --> 3:05:55.439 previous spouse. Belize They found that she had falsified those documents. 3:05:55.800 --> 3:05:55.920 Right. 3:05:56.720 --> 3:05:59.760 They are also pursuing a case against a Nigerian man 3:05:59.800 --> 3:06:02.280 who has already been convicted of fraud and it has 3:06:02.320 --> 3:06:04.879 already been put in prison for that, but they are 3:06:04.959 --> 3:06:09.920 now pursuing a denaturalization case as well. Virtually every interaction 3:06:10.040 --> 3:06:14.680 with USCIS now seems to require interviews in person and 3:06:14.800 --> 3:06:19.120 biometric connection. This means that applicants now have to come 3:06:19.160 --> 3:06:21.800 into an office where they know that people have been detained. 3:06:23.160 --> 3:06:25.640 This leads to people being afraid to do that right. 3:06:26.200 --> 3:06:28.800 Petitions are slowing down as they're moved around to a 3:06:28.920 --> 3:06:31.879 dwindling workforce which is still focused on processing those as 3:06:31.920 --> 3:06:35.680 opposed to the growing amount of the USCIS workforce which 3:06:35.760 --> 3:06:39.959 is looking for quote unquote fraud in applications or attempting 3:06:40.000 --> 3:06:43.160 to denaturalize people. As we just covered, among the people 3:06:43.320 --> 3:06:46.640 waiting without visas are some people who are waiting for 3:06:46.720 --> 3:06:50.199 special visas, which are given to people who are survivors 3:06:50.280 --> 3:06:55.080 of human trafficking, gender based violence, or other crimes. This 3:06:55.320 --> 3:07:00.840 includes children. There's especially Immigrant Juvenile visa, which every single 3:07:00.920 --> 3:07:04.240 person I've heard of coming on an SIJ visa has 3:07:04.760 --> 3:07:08.160 had things happen to them which I didn't struggle to 3:07:08.160 --> 3:07:09.840 think about that would keep you up at night. And 3:07:09.959 --> 3:07:12.680 the thought that those people are waiting in limbo because 3:07:12.680 --> 3:07:16.720 they're trying to denaturalize people is particularly upsetting. I'm sure 3:07:16.720 --> 3:07:19.519 it's also upsetting to some people who've worked at uscis 3:07:19.640 --> 3:07:23.040 their whole life, and I know that morale among those 3:07:23.080 --> 3:07:27.080 people is pretty low. While the agency sort of has 3:07:27.160 --> 3:07:29.520 changed beyond all recognition in the last couple of years. 3:07:30.200 --> 3:07:34.280 Talking of changing beyond all recognition, we're going to now 3:07:34.360 --> 3:07:38.760 pivot from journalism to probably some adverts for online gambling. Yeah, 3:07:39.160 --> 3:07:40.600 it would be shocking and jarring. 3:07:41.040 --> 3:07:41.600 I love it. 3:07:41.879 --> 3:07:44.040 You could change your life beyond all recognition if you 3:07:44.080 --> 3:07:45.160 have a big win that. 3:07:46.720 --> 3:07:47.480 Or a big loss. 3:07:47.840 --> 3:07:51.320 Yeah, yeah, your life that way, Derrison. We're not supposed 3:07:51.320 --> 3:07:51.840 to mention. 3:07:51.840 --> 3:08:01.039 That we're back. 3:08:01.640 --> 3:08:05.440 And we all just voted on Forbes dot COM's newest 3:08:05.800 --> 3:08:09.680 prediction contest, how many people will be wounded in the 3:08:09.840 --> 3:08:13.080 next three American mass shootings. I'm excited. There's a big 3:08:13.200 --> 3:08:14.039 prize for this one. 3:08:14.920 --> 3:08:15.120 Sick. 3:08:15.600 --> 3:08:18.920 Yeah, that's only slightly an exaggeration of what Forbes is 3:08:19.000 --> 3:08:19.800 actually doing. 3:08:20.360 --> 3:08:20.600 Yeah. 3:08:20.959 --> 3:08:23.279 Yeah, it's pretty gross. 3:08:23.360 --> 3:08:26.840 It's pretty really hideous. It's okay, guys, it's not a market, 3:08:26.959 --> 3:08:30.280 it's just our prediction platform. It's a prediction platform. There's 3:08:30.400 --> 3:08:33.960 no real money, only social capital. 3:08:35.080 --> 3:08:38.320 That could be the slogan of most journalistic enterprises in 3:08:38.400 --> 3:08:42.360 twenty twenty six. To be honest, Forbes has kind of 3:08:42.760 --> 3:08:45.200 been a blog rather than a news website, but this 3:08:45.400 --> 3:08:48.240 is still pretty disgusting. 3:08:48.440 --> 3:08:50.240 Speaking of there being no real money. 3:08:50.800 --> 3:08:56.720 Yeah, let's talk about the Federal Reserve. So when we 3:08:56.879 --> 3:09:00.120 last left our I hesitate to call them heroes, yes, 3:09:00.720 --> 3:09:03.720 But when we last left the Federal Reserve Board, there 3:09:03.840 --> 3:09:07.800 was a very obviously cooked up investigation by the Justice 3:09:07.840 --> 3:09:13.039 Department into Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. This investigation doesn't 3:09:13.160 --> 3:09:17.920 really seem to have advanced at all, but the conflict 3:09:18.040 --> 3:09:21.320 over Powell and over Powell's replacement has been intensifying in 3:09:21.400 --> 3:09:26.000 recent weeks. Last week, on the fifteenth of April, Trump 3:09:26.080 --> 3:09:31.280 threatened to fire Powell if Powell stayed on as basically 3:09:31.360 --> 3:09:36.240 the temporary Federal Reserve Chair after his term expired. Now, 3:09:37.040 --> 3:09:42.040 the reason this is happening is because Trump's attempt to 3:09:42.840 --> 3:09:47.120 get someone confirmed to replace Powell has not been going well, 3:09:47.720 --> 3:09:51.520 and if no one is confirmed by May fifteenth, then 3:09:51.879 --> 3:09:54.920 the office is just empty, and Powell has said that 3:09:55.000 --> 3:09:57.959 he wants to stay on and become the temporary chair. 3:09:59.160 --> 3:10:02.200 This is sort of unprecedented, but then again, we've also 3:10:02.320 --> 3:10:06.480 not ever had the president's open an investigation into the 3:10:06.520 --> 3:10:09.400 sitting chair of the Federal Reserve, causing him to give 3:10:09.440 --> 3:10:13.600 a reverse hostage video. So where things are right now 3:10:14.000 --> 3:10:18.840 is that we are getting hearings on Trump's preferred nominee, 3:10:18.879 --> 3:10:23.360 a man named Kevin Walsh. However, there is a real 3:10:23.520 --> 3:10:28.160 problem with worsh as as a candidate that's not doesn't 3:10:28.160 --> 3:10:29.880 have anything to do with who he is. We'll get 3:10:29.879 --> 3:10:32.720 to that in a second. The biggest issue that Trump 3:10:32.840 --> 3:10:35.840 is facing here is that Tom Tillis, who's an outgoing 3:10:35.840 --> 3:10:40.000 Republican Senator, is refusing to let any Trump appointee pass 3:10:40.480 --> 3:10:45.240 through the Finance Committee unless Trump ends the investigation into 3:10:45.360 --> 3:10:50.320 Jerom Powell. So this has had everything at a complete standstill. 3:10:50.440 --> 3:10:52.959 It was sort of unclear though a lot of different 3:10:53.400 --> 3:10:55.800 Republican senators had threatened to do something like this, But 3:10:56.440 --> 3:11:01.080 because Tillis is just leaving, he's just he's retiring at 3:11:01.080 --> 3:11:02.480 the end of this at the end of the session. 3:11:03.040 --> 3:11:05.360 He's the one who's you know, up there doing it. 3:11:06.240 --> 3:11:08.680 And this has ground the nomination to a halt. We're 3:11:08.680 --> 3:11:11.080 still getting hearings, but there's no way for him to 3:11:11.160 --> 3:11:13.760 actually get a vote to get get this process out 3:11:13.760 --> 3:11:18.680 of committee. So into this morass steps Kevin Walsh, who 3:11:19.480 --> 3:11:23.720 He's not the most unhinged guy Trump could have hicked 3:11:23.840 --> 3:11:28.080 high bar. This is, at least nominally, on the surface, 3:11:28.760 --> 3:11:31.640 sort of a FED guy like he has worked for 3:11:31.720 --> 3:11:33.680 the Federal Reserve, like Federal Reserve banks before. 3:11:33.760 --> 3:11:39.760 He's not a podcast right, Yes, actually, actually. 3:11:41.440 --> 3:11:42.240 He might have one. 3:11:43.000 --> 3:11:44.480 There's a non zero chance. 3:11:44.400 --> 3:11:44.840 He might be. 3:11:44.879 --> 3:11:45.320 He might be. 3:11:45.520 --> 3:11:48.440 I I don't know, but I am not willing to 3:11:48.520 --> 3:11:53.840 say that he is not one. So now this, this, 3:11:54.120 --> 3:11:57.920 this whole nomination has also become a mess because again, 3:11:58.000 --> 3:12:00.680 as as we've been talking about, the reason why Trump 3:12:00.800 --> 3:12:03.240 wants to basically take direct control of the Federal Reserve 3:12:03.680 --> 3:12:08.080 and and FED independence by installing his guys as a 3:12:08.120 --> 3:12:11.640 chairman of the Federal Reserve Board is that he wants 3:12:11.680 --> 3:12:13.360 to FED well, he wants to be able to control 3:12:13.360 --> 3:12:15.240 the FED so he can control interest rates. He wants 3:12:15.320 --> 3:12:19.480 interest rates cut. Now, this is coming up a lot 3:12:19.800 --> 3:12:28.040 in the hearings and so far Walsh is giving answers 3:12:28.160 --> 3:12:30.800 that if you've ever watched the testimony of someone who's 3:12:30.920 --> 3:12:33.280 who's trying to get onto the Supreme Court, it's a 3:12:33.320 --> 3:12:36.960 lot like that, where he is saying the things that 3:12:37.080 --> 3:12:40.040 he is supposed to say. He's saying that he opposes 3:12:40.160 --> 3:12:42.360 an interest rate cut. He's saying that the primary job 3:12:42.400 --> 3:12:44.720 of the FED is a combat inflation. He's saying that 3:12:44.800 --> 3:12:48.120 he believes it fed independents. But he also has said 3:12:48.120 --> 3:12:52.320 that Trump has not asked him to cut interest rates. 3:12:53.160 --> 3:12:55.760 And Elizabeth Warren, who's been sort of leading the Democratic 3:12:56.120 --> 3:12:59.360 charge against this, has pointed out a number of things, 3:12:59.520 --> 3:13:01.920 one of which is in workboard. He gets some more 3:13:01.959 --> 3:13:04.000 of the weird shit with him in a second. But 3:13:04.840 --> 3:13:07.320 one of the major things here is that the President 3:13:07.800 --> 3:13:10.840 has said that he's asked Worsh to do just ray cuts. 3:13:11.040 --> 3:13:16.600 So somebody's lying here. Worsh isn't giving non answers about that. 3:13:17.200 --> 3:13:18.760 I'm also just going to read this quote from the 3:13:18.760 --> 3:13:22.720 Associated Press quote. Warren also noted that Worsh has not 3:13:22.959 --> 3:13:26.320 disclosed all of his financial holdings, which include investments in 3:13:26.400 --> 3:13:29.920 startups and private companies, or the size of those financial stakes. 3:13:30.200 --> 3:13:33.160 For example, Worsh has said he has holdings in SpaceX 3:13:33.240 --> 3:13:36.480 and polymarkets, but it's not said how large those investments are. 3:13:37.120 --> 3:13:39.480 Great, well, you can't win them off. 3:13:40.720 --> 3:13:43.800 Yeah, So later on Warsh said he would divest from 3:13:43.920 --> 3:13:48.560 one hundred million dollars in investments but you know this 3:13:48.760 --> 3:13:50.720 is great. Warren also points out that he's in the 3:13:50.760 --> 3:13:56.199 Epstein files because Epstein apparently invited him and his wife 3:13:56.320 --> 3:13:59.360 to Wade party. It is unclear at this point what 3:14:00.560 --> 3:14:02.480 what a connection he had, or if there was more. 3:14:02.600 --> 3:14:05.800 But that's not a great sign. Where we are right 3:14:05.920 --> 3:14:10.080 now is that worsh is normal enough of a guy 3:14:10.360 --> 3:14:14.080 that Tom Tillis is willing to vote for him if 3:14:14.120 --> 3:14:17.760 the investigation is dropped. Tillis and some other members of 3:14:17.920 --> 3:14:20.720 the committee have been Republican members of the committee have 3:14:20.800 --> 3:14:23.520 been talking about this scheme to get the investigation transferred 3:14:23.520 --> 3:14:26.360 from the Department of Justice to the Senate Committee. I 3:14:26.440 --> 3:14:28.240 think at which point they could basically just kill it 3:14:29.400 --> 3:14:31.120 or just have it be a thing at a budget overruns. 3:14:31.160 --> 3:14:34.920 That's not like an attempt to depose Jeroon Powell. It's 3:14:34.959 --> 3:14:36.400 not clear what's going to happen with that, and it 3:14:36.440 --> 3:14:39.160 hasn't started yet. This is the point that we're at 3:14:39.240 --> 3:14:42.760 right now. This conflict is going to keep heating up 3:14:43.000 --> 3:14:46.680 as the May fifteenth deadline for getting a new nominion 3:14:46.760 --> 3:14:50.920 before the board vacancy happens, and Jerome Powell basically stays 3:14:50.959 --> 3:14:54.360 in power longer than his terminally last happens. So we're 3:14:54.400 --> 3:14:57.720 going to keep following this story. And there's one other 3:14:57.800 --> 3:15:01.560 story that we are going to keep following, which is 3:15:02.120 --> 3:15:04.680 there was an exclusive by the Wall Street Journal, which 3:15:04.720 --> 3:15:07.760 is a report this is from unimed US officials, but 3:15:07.840 --> 3:15:15.120 it claims that the UAE's central bank governor is reportedly 3:15:15.200 --> 3:15:17.600 trying to get what's called a currency swap with the US. 3:15:18.120 --> 3:15:20.680 So what a currency swap is basically is, it's like 3:15:21.080 --> 3:15:23.000 it's a way to try to fix an exchange rate 3:15:23.080 --> 3:15:25.920 and get a country a certain amount of US dollars 3:15:26.040 --> 3:15:28.240 by just like just at the fixed exchange rate, just 3:15:28.320 --> 3:15:30.680 like swapping X amount of dollars for x amounts of 3:15:30.840 --> 3:15:35.720 another country's currency. This report was immediately denied, very very 3:15:35.800 --> 3:15:40.120 quickly denied by a series of posts on x the 3:15:40.200 --> 3:15:44.280 everything app by the UAE's embassy to the US where 3:15:44.760 --> 3:15:48.600 they gave a thing of Trump also had like started 3:15:48.640 --> 3:15:51.040 talking about this too. I'm just going to read a 3:15:51.080 --> 3:15:54.119 little bit of this quote. We very much appreciate President 3:15:54.160 --> 3:15:56.879 Trump's recognition of the UAE is one of America's most 3:15:56.920 --> 3:16:00.640 important economic and trade partners. That recognition reflex at depth 3:16:00.680 --> 3:16:03.320 of mutual trust based on mutual investment, et cetera, et cetera, 3:16:03.320 --> 3:16:07.879 et cetera. Any suggestion that the UAE requires external financial 3:16:08.480 --> 3:16:11.360 backing misreads the facts. The UAE is one of the 3:16:11.480 --> 3:16:15.959 most financially resilient economies, underpinned by more than two trillion 3:16:16.000 --> 3:16:17.920 dollars in the sovereign and assets more than three hundred 3:16:17.920 --> 3:16:21.800 billion dollars in foreign currency reserves held by the UAE 3:16:21.959 --> 3:16:24.920 Central Bank and banking sectors, with approximately one point five 3:16:25.000 --> 3:16:27.360 trillion in deposits. So when they start listening out the deposits, 3:16:27.400 --> 3:16:28.880 that's when things are not going great. 3:16:29.440 --> 3:16:31.440 And yeah, the the. 3:16:31.920 --> 3:16:33.440 Issue here, and this is something this is what the 3:16:33.480 --> 3:16:37.440 Waalsher journal is talking about, is that this is not 3:16:37.720 --> 3:16:40.760 an immediate proposal. This is a proposal for what's becoming 3:16:40.920 --> 3:16:43.680 increasingly clear, which is that there's no there's not actually 3:16:43.720 --> 3:16:47.320 an end to the war and Iran in sight. And 3:16:47.760 --> 3:16:50.560 if the trader for moves remains closed, this is an 3:16:50.600 --> 3:16:54.520 existential crisis for the UAE because not only are all 3:16:54.600 --> 3:16:57.760 of their exports stopped, you know, like the ue itself 3:16:57.840 --> 3:17:00.000 is just physically under threat, to the infrastructures under threat, 3:17:00.160 --> 3:17:02.680 and it's very difficult for them to get more investments. 3:17:03.200 --> 3:17:07.039 And this could in the future start a dollar crisis 3:17:07.920 --> 3:17:09.760 of the kind that we've talked about on the show 3:17:09.840 --> 3:17:12.960 before Go if you want to, Yeah, I've talked about 3:17:13.440 --> 3:17:15.960 basically dollar crises and how you can have balance of 3:17:16.000 --> 3:17:19.920 payments crises for running out of US dollars. What's interesting 3:17:19.959 --> 3:17:22.200 about this reports, and the reason that we're sort of 3:17:22.280 --> 3:17:24.760 talking about it right now, is that one of the 3:17:24.879 --> 3:17:28.640 things that the UAE reportedly was mentioning was that they 3:17:28.760 --> 3:17:33.200 might be forced to turn the Chinese currency. It's basically 3:17:33.320 --> 3:17:35.440 they might be forced to like sell oil in Chinese 3:17:35.480 --> 3:17:38.040 currency in order to get it through the straight, which 3:17:38.080 --> 3:17:45.080 would be a apackle shift to the entire global political economy, right, 3:17:45.160 --> 3:17:49.360 which is the America's status in the world is in part, 3:17:49.560 --> 3:17:52.240 but in no small part, based on the fact that 3:17:52.320 --> 3:17:55.280 you can really only buy oil in dollars. And it 3:17:55.440 --> 3:17:58.720 seems like what's happening is that the UAE is looking 3:17:58.760 --> 3:18:03.080 at their long term prospects going we're completely screwed. They're going, oh, well, 3:18:03.160 --> 3:18:04.560 if we don't, if you don't just hand us a 3:18:04.560 --> 3:18:06.520 bunch of money, we're going to have to start looking 3:18:06.600 --> 3:18:09.880 at the underpinnings of you know, American imperial power. So 3:18:10.560 --> 3:18:13.560 we're going to continue to see where this goes. As 3:18:13.640 --> 3:18:15.920 just war continues, and as the stray continues to be blocked, 3:18:16.480 --> 3:18:18.680 countries around the world are going to become more and 3:18:18.760 --> 3:18:22.400 more desperate. As the economic consequences of this ripples out 3:18:22.400 --> 3:18:24.760 across the world, We're probably going to start seeing more 3:18:24.840 --> 3:18:30.040 things like this. And at some point, if it becomes 3:18:30.160 --> 3:18:32.320 clear that the war is not going to end. In 3:18:32.360 --> 3:18:35.200 Trump's early week announcement that the ceasefires are going to 3:18:35.320 --> 3:18:37.600 keep going, stops being able to keep the stock markets 3:18:37.640 --> 3:18:41.360 from being propped up, We're going to start seeing an 3:18:41.400 --> 3:18:44.160 even wider spread impact of this. But this is a 3:18:45.000 --> 3:18:49.720 bleak sign from a staunch US ally. Yeah, we have 3:18:49.800 --> 3:18:53.400 one final story before closing, which is a little funny, 3:18:53.840 --> 3:18:56.440 also worrying, but more more funny. 3:18:56.520 --> 3:18:58.160 I think that's pretty good. 3:18:58.959 --> 3:19:03.320 Shawnie Kirkhoff, the woman that Glenn Beck's right wing outlet 3:19:03.400 --> 3:19:07.960 The Blaze falsely accused of being the January sixth pipe bomber, 3:19:08.480 --> 3:19:11.240 has launched a lawsuit against The Blaze and the two 3:19:11.320 --> 3:19:16.120 quote unquote journalists who wrote the story for context. Last November, 3:19:16.240 --> 3:19:19.440 the Blaze published a story claiming to have identified the 3:19:19.560 --> 3:19:23.720 bomber as a Capitol police officer who responded to the 3:19:23.840 --> 3:19:29.640 January sixth insurrection based on quote forensic gate analysis which 3:19:29.680 --> 3:19:33.360 determined the officer was a quote up to ninety eight 3:19:33.440 --> 3:19:37.400 percent match to surveillance video of the bomber. 3:19:37.680 --> 3:19:38.600 Oh God. 3:19:38.920 --> 3:19:42.280 This lawsuit claims five counts of defamation and one count 3:19:42.400 --> 3:19:48.000 of defamation by implication, and Kerkhoff is requesting a jury trial. 3:19:48.840 --> 3:19:53.560 The documents claim that the Blaze report targeted her because 3:19:53.600 --> 3:19:56.400 of her actions on January sixth as a police officer 3:19:56.920 --> 3:20:01.760 and testimony she gave against insurrectionists in court, and part 3:20:01.800 --> 3:20:04.680 of the intention of targeting her was to build on 3:20:04.840 --> 3:20:08.240 this larger idea that the defendants had that January sixth 3:20:08.400 --> 3:20:12.280 was a quote unquote inside job. As these reports were 3:20:12.320 --> 3:20:15.680 getting published by The Blaze, Glenn Beck said on his show, 3:20:15.800 --> 3:20:18.480 quote this is one of the biggest stories. I think 3:20:18.720 --> 3:20:22.280 it is the biggest scandal of my lifetime, maybe in 3:20:22.400 --> 3:20:23.960 the last one hundred years. 3:20:24.360 --> 3:20:27.760 Paper monstrous, bigger than Watergate. 3:20:28.160 --> 3:20:29.879 Pullit surprise winning stuff. 3:20:31.520 --> 3:20:34.160 You have the capacity for self delusion, Yeah. 3:20:34.000 --> 3:20:35.440 Pullet sinning stuff. 3:20:35.560 --> 3:20:37.720 I'm waiting for the politics are committed to finish reviewing 3:20:37.760 --> 3:20:38.120 this one. 3:20:38.959 --> 3:20:40.640 They're gonna have to get in a nine after the 3:20:40.680 --> 3:20:43.080 pulic serprise are surely going to get for interviewing the 3:20:43.200 --> 3:20:47.800 dude who murdered Minneapolis Democratic politicians? Well, yeah, which I'm 3:20:47.800 --> 3:20:50.520 sure was an action that his lawyer was super stoked about. 3:20:50.680 --> 3:20:50.880 Yeah. 3:20:51.480 --> 3:20:54.200 Court documents to say that because of this false claim, 3:20:54.600 --> 3:20:58.120 the CIA placed the plaintiff on administrative leave and she 3:20:58.320 --> 3:21:02.400 was forced into hiding amidst online threats from conspiracy theorists 3:21:02.560 --> 3:21:07.400 quote for her role in supporting the deep state, including 3:21:07.600 --> 3:21:11.360 in posts on her mother's obituary web page unquote, she 3:21:11.480 --> 3:21:14.640 was getting death threats on the obituary page for her mother. 3:21:15.560 --> 3:21:19.840 Yeah, in constant frustration in my life, his journalists posting 3:21:19.920 --> 3:21:22.400 screenshots from court cases and then not listening to the 3:21:22.440 --> 3:21:24.840 court listener page. So I decided to find the page 3:21:24.879 --> 3:21:28.200 so I could not be that guy. But yes, some 3:21:28.320 --> 3:21:31.880 of the threats this woman got genuinely probably made her 3:21:31.920 --> 3:21:33.880 life very difficult to live for a period of time. 3:21:34.360 --> 3:21:38.920 Absolutely. The stud alleges that even after she was cleared 3:21:39.240 --> 3:21:43.959 as a suspect and weeks later another suspect was arrested 3:21:44.080 --> 3:21:48.480 who seems to be the likely bomber, these blaze ute 3:21:48.520 --> 3:21:52.400 unquote journalists continue to harass her and that their quote, 3:21:52.840 --> 3:21:58.840 false and defamatory accusations have irreparably changed her life unquote. 3:21:59.400 --> 3:22:03.279 The documents that this ruined her lifetime career in public 3:22:03.360 --> 3:22:06.720 service by forever linking her to the bombing and records 3:22:06.840 --> 3:22:11.240 of an FBI investigation, making any potential security clearance is 3:22:11.280 --> 3:22:15.320 needed in the future difficult or impossible to pass. One 3:22:15.320 --> 3:22:19.000 of the journalists was fired by the Blaze on April first, 3:22:19.360 --> 3:22:22.520 just earlier this month, and the other resigned two days later. 3:22:23.560 --> 3:22:28.000 They have since raised over twenty thousand dollars since leaving 3:22:28.040 --> 3:22:31.960 the Blaze to continue their claims on a new independent 3:22:32.040 --> 3:22:34.199 website that they're launching. Given the name of the website, 3:22:34.760 --> 3:22:39.360 the website is called Yeah, They're a toss regnant LLC. 3:22:39.600 --> 3:22:41.000 Yes, yes, Veritas. 3:22:41.200 --> 3:22:44.120 I think that just means the truth is king basically trains. 3:22:44.560 --> 3:22:46.480 Yeah, yeah, I think that's what they were going for 3:22:46.600 --> 3:22:46.960 at least. 3:22:47.160 --> 3:22:47.320 Yeah. 3:22:47.680 --> 3:22:48.080 I love it. 3:22:48.200 --> 3:22:48.600 I love it. 3:22:48.959 --> 3:22:51.480 When I read that detail, I was you guys are 3:22:51.560 --> 3:22:55.600 going to be the most sued any people have ever been. 3:22:55.879 --> 3:22:56.640 It's beautiful. 3:22:57.120 --> 3:22:59.080 Something about PITOD seems relevant here. 3:23:00.879 --> 3:23:02.720 The document says that the plaintiff was called in to 3:23:02.800 --> 3:23:06.199 work on November sixth, where two FBI agents then asked 3:23:06.240 --> 3:23:09.560 her about quote unquote online chatter that she was the bomber. 3:23:10.280 --> 3:23:13.040 She consented to a phone and car search and was 3:23:13.120 --> 3:23:16.360 placed on administrative leave. Later that day, a quote unquote 3:23:16.440 --> 3:23:20.480 caravan of FBI vehicles arrived outside her home, including a 3:23:20.600 --> 3:23:24.000 bomb disposal truck and a helicopter. I'm just going to 3:23:24.080 --> 3:23:26.800 read from the document quote. The agents claimed that they 3:23:26.800 --> 3:23:30.920 were primarily looking for shoes. Agents edited their vehicles with 3:23:31.040 --> 3:23:34.600 their guns drawn in full tactical gear. An agent called 3:23:34.959 --> 3:23:39.560 mister Dickert, who is the plaintiff's boyfriend, and commanded him 3:23:39.680 --> 3:23:42.640 to quote come out of the house unarmed with your dogs. 3:23:43.600 --> 3:23:47.880 Mister Dickart and missus Kirkhoff complied and stepped outside. Agents 3:23:47.959 --> 3:23:51.080 swept through the house, then re entered with bomb sniffing dogs. 3:23:51.560 --> 3:23:55.920 They opened cabinets, rifled through drawers, and scattered Missus Kerkhoff's 3:23:55.959 --> 3:24:00.640 and mister Dickard's belongings, all without obtaining Miss Kerr's or 3:24:00.879 --> 3:24:04.880 mister Dickert's consent. It suddenly occurred to miss Kirkoff that 3:24:04.959 --> 3:24:07.840 they were not simply looking for a pair of shoes. 3:24:08.320 --> 3:24:08.760 Unquote. 3:24:09.360 --> 3:24:11.080 Never heard the masking for the dogs to come out 3:24:11.080 --> 3:24:13.360 before that was a new one for me. 3:24:13.640 --> 3:24:16.959 That is an interesting detail. That is an interesting Yeah. 3:24:17.160 --> 3:24:21.000 So the plaintiff asked the agents there why they would 3:24:21.040 --> 3:24:25.320 do all this to investigate quote unquote online chatter, and 3:24:25.600 --> 3:24:28.360 as senior official responded that these orders came from quote 3:24:28.400 --> 3:24:33.000 unquote higher up and that Miss Kirkhoff could quote clear 3:24:33.120 --> 3:24:36.720 everything up just that night if she would accompany agents 3:24:36.959 --> 3:24:41.119 to the FBI office for a polygraph interview. Miss Kerkoff agreed, 3:24:41.400 --> 3:24:44.080 and agents assured her that the drive out to the 3:24:44.120 --> 3:24:47.600 office would take longer than the interview itself. This was 3:24:47.680 --> 3:24:51.640 not true. The interview lasted almost three hours. Agents repeatedly 3:24:51.720 --> 3:24:56.039 accused the plaintiff of placing the bombs and continually asserted 3:24:56.080 --> 3:24:59.360 her guilt. Part Way through the interview, the interrogator changed 3:24:59.360 --> 3:25:02.000 out the tube on the polygraph because they quote did 3:25:02.120 --> 3:25:04.919 not like how they were reading unquote. 3:25:04.640 --> 3:25:06.320 That was a remarkable detail. 3:25:07.240 --> 3:25:12.160 Jesus yeah, oh, Jesus Christ, and at one point told 3:25:12.200 --> 3:25:15.960 the plaintiff that she quote unquote fail Wow. Oh, the 3:25:16.040 --> 3:25:18.840 plaintiff assumed was just an interrogation technique. 3:25:18.959 --> 3:25:22.120 Yeah, you can't fail a polygraph test, right, It just 3:25:22.200 --> 3:25:25.800 gives information, yes, often not actually information, which she's very 3:25:25.879 --> 3:25:27.840 useful in any way relevant to whether you're telling the 3:25:27.879 --> 3:25:31.160 truth or not. Polygraphs not not really something that should 3:25:31.160 --> 3:25:33.680 be used in this capacity. But here we go anyway. 3:25:33.879 --> 3:25:36.480 But yet there's not like a past fail. It doesn't 3:25:36.560 --> 3:25:38.800 like a bleep bleep bleep liar detective. 3:25:38.920 --> 3:25:42.879 Now, after midnight, she asked if she was free to leave, 3:25:43.040 --> 3:25:45.880 and the agents said yes, so she went home. In 3:25:45.959 --> 3:25:49.280 the next day, the FBI returned her phone, and then 3:25:49.440 --> 3:25:51.960 once she got back her phone, she saw this quote 3:25:52.000 --> 3:25:56.000 unquote online chatter exploding all over, alleging that she was 3:25:56.120 --> 3:25:59.920 the bomber. A day later, the Blaze published a report 3:26:00.200 --> 3:26:04.520 explicitly naming her as the bombing suspect, something they already 3:26:04.560 --> 3:26:08.560 alluded to in previous reporting, which sparked the online chatter, 3:26:08.720 --> 3:26:11.440 which caused the FBI to search her home and interrogate her. 3:26:12.520 --> 3:26:15.680 This was all intentional on the part of the Blaze. 3:26:15.800 --> 3:26:19.720 According to this court document, the defendants, these quote unquote 3:26:19.760 --> 3:26:23.600 journalists purposely forwarded a tip to the Office of the 3:26:23.640 --> 3:26:26.320 Director of National Intelligence in an attempt to get quote 3:26:26.360 --> 3:26:31.039 unquote coroboration of their reporting from sources inside the government 3:26:31.160 --> 3:26:34.880 by getting the plaintiff placed under investigation. Prior to their 3:26:34.959 --> 3:26:39.960 publishing of the articles identifying her as the bomber. This 3:26:40.600 --> 3:26:42.160 was basically all part of the ski. 3:26:42.480 --> 3:26:45.120 Their goal was to set the narrative Jesus Christ. 3:26:47.080 --> 3:26:50.760 Months later, the defendants have refused to remove headlines or 3:26:50.840 --> 3:26:54.520 social media posts claiming to identify the bomber, even after 3:26:54.640 --> 3:26:57.680 the actual text of these articles was removed after the 3:26:57.879 --> 3:27:03.240 FBI arrested the real suspect in December. Well, just last month, 3:27:03.600 --> 3:27:07.959 the quote unquote journalists published another article on The Blaze titled, 3:27:08.040 --> 3:27:13.760 quote Brian Cole Junior's physical presence, posture, mannerisms are no 3:27:14.000 --> 3:27:18.760 match to FBI's hooey clad pipe bomb suspect unquote god. 3:27:19.040 --> 3:27:21.360 This was another article on The Blaze saying that Gate 3:27:21.400 --> 3:27:24.879 analysis showed that Brian Cole Junior, the actual suspect who 3:27:24.879 --> 3:27:30.440 has been arrested, does not match the Gate does not 3:27:30.680 --> 3:27:37.280 have a positive Gate analysis match to the surveillance footage 3:27:37.400 --> 3:27:38.160 from that night. 3:27:38.280 --> 3:27:42.119 Oh god, because it's not real, because because Gate analysis 3:27:42.200 --> 3:27:42.760 is bullshit. 3:27:43.040 --> 3:27:45.360 Well they break that down in the quote documents, right. 3:27:45.400 --> 3:27:47.320 The footage of her that they had was when she's 3:27:47.400 --> 3:27:50.520 carrying like fifty pounds of tactical gear and a heavy. 3:27:50.400 --> 3:27:54.160 Bag tactical gear yes, yes, and she suffered a serious 3:27:54.320 --> 3:27:56.280 laying injury in college. 3:27:56.560 --> 3:28:00.720 Yeh, it's comical that like they that this is what 3:28:00.800 --> 3:28:02.720 they went with, but then the fact that they're doubling 3:28:02.760 --> 3:28:03.680 down on it's very. 3:28:03.640 --> 3:28:05.840 Funny and legally baffling. 3:28:07.040 --> 3:28:10.440 Yeah, they really are not ready for the consequences to 3:28:10.480 --> 3:28:11.280 hit them on this one. 3:28:11.840 --> 3:28:15.360 No. So, like I said, these two quote unquot journalists 3:28:15.640 --> 3:28:18.280 were fired and Slash left The Blaze earlier this month, 3:28:19.000 --> 3:28:23.240 but in posts and podcast appearances, they assert that Brian 3:28:23.320 --> 3:28:26.600 Cole Junior is a quote unquote patsy, and that quote 3:28:26.959 --> 3:28:29.879 the truth about the pipe bomber has been quote unquote 3:28:29.959 --> 3:28:34.880 floored it, and that quote unquote legal considerations are preventing 3:28:34.959 --> 3:28:39.760 them from further disclosing the quote unquote darker details about 3:28:39.879 --> 3:28:46.280 their yeah, pipe bomber theory is christ Now, Brian Colet 3:28:46.320 --> 3:28:50.439 Junior's defense lawyers have filed a subpoena for miss Kirkoff, 3:28:50.879 --> 3:28:54.880 which misleadingly states she quote unquote failed a polygraph. This 3:28:55.000 --> 3:28:58.000 subpoena also contains her home address, and the subpoena has 3:28:58.000 --> 3:29:01.920 been spread online by these quote quote journalists as evidence 3:29:01.959 --> 3:29:05.560 that they were right all along. The plaintiff continues to 3:29:05.640 --> 3:29:08.200 deal with doxing and death threats as a result from 3:29:08.200 --> 3:29:12.920 the subpoena, and the quote unquote journalists continued reporting, spreading 3:29:13.000 --> 3:29:16.640 claims that she is in fact the real bomber. So 3:29:16.800 --> 3:29:19.520 Kirkoff is requesting a jury trial with these six counts 3:29:19.520 --> 3:29:22.760 of defamation. And I hope she gets a lot of 3:29:22.800 --> 3:29:24.800 money from everyone involved in this. 3:29:25.160 --> 3:29:27.520 Yeah, I hope she gets every dollar. 3:29:27.680 --> 3:29:30.680 Glenn beck Hans, Yeah, I mean I hope the outlets 3:29:31.200 --> 3:29:33.199 existing that is that would be ideal. 3:29:33.280 --> 3:29:36.800 Yeah, I hope the outlet becomes yet another subsidiary of 3:29:36.840 --> 3:29:37.279 the Onion. 3:29:40.840 --> 3:29:42.760 That would be a magnificent way for this to end. 3:29:42.840 --> 3:29:46.640 But yeah, like yeah, and then another element of the 3:29:46.800 --> 3:29:48.880 documents are noticed with that they talked about how the 3:29:49.920 --> 3:29:53.280 the quote unquote journalists had benefited from their Blue check 3:29:53.480 --> 3:29:54.279 X posts. 3:29:54.080 --> 3:29:56.200 Right, yeah, monetized accounts on X. 3:29:56.320 --> 3:29:56.520 Yeah. 3:29:57.120 --> 3:29:59.960 I would be interested to see as we get more 3:30:00.240 --> 3:30:03.840 in discovery element of this case, how much were they 3:30:04.000 --> 3:30:07.240 making how much would it making from X versus the Blaze? Like, 3:30:08.040 --> 3:30:10.720 I'm going to follow this one just because so many 3:30:11.480 --> 3:30:14.760 of the bits of misleading reporting we see are because 3:30:14.800 --> 3:30:17.879 of this financial incentive structure. So it'll be very revealing 3:30:17.959 --> 3:30:18.640 for us well. 3:30:18.720 --> 3:30:21.920 And this financial structure is something that X Everything app 3:30:22.000 --> 3:30:24.440 is somewhat attempting to take on, at least for news 3:30:24.480 --> 3:30:25.480 aggregator accounts. 3:30:25.920 --> 3:30:29.560 Yeah, yeah, yeah, they specifically went off to dom Lucret apparently. 3:30:29.920 --> 3:30:32.520 Yes, one of X's guys announced like a week or 3:30:32.600 --> 3:30:35.920 so ago that they're going to be reforming reforming the 3:30:36.240 --> 3:30:40.480 payout system for news aggregators. This is uh Nikolie de Beer. 3:30:41.080 --> 3:30:41.320 Yeah. 3:30:41.879 --> 3:30:44.119 Part of the way they're doing that is that Ex's 3:30:44.240 --> 3:30:47.280 traffic is in free fall, and this is something that 3:30:47.360 --> 3:30:50.640 we're seeing, like across social media. There was a really 3:30:50.760 --> 3:30:54.520 good report that Peter Tornberg, who's an assistant professor in 3:30:54.560 --> 3:30:59.200 computational social science at the University of Amsterdam, published earlier 3:30:59.320 --> 3:30:59.760 this year. 3:31:00.360 --> 3:31:03.199 I mean, like just today came up with an update 3:31:03.240 --> 3:31:03.400 on it. 3:31:03.520 --> 3:31:05.800 On like the most recent numbers we have on like 3:31:06.160 --> 3:31:09.280 what's happening to the different social media networks. Visiting and 3:31:09.360 --> 3:31:12.640 posting on X the Everything app and Facebook have seen 3:31:12.720 --> 3:31:17.920 like a nearly fifty percent drops, a significant decline among 3:31:18.400 --> 3:31:22.320 like the youngest and the oldest users on social media, 3:31:22.520 --> 3:31:25.440 particularly like people over sixty five and people from eighteen 3:31:25.480 --> 3:31:27.840 to twenty four have seen like the biggest decline and 3:31:28.000 --> 3:31:31.400 like the time that they've actually spent on site. I'm 3:31:31.440 --> 3:31:32.480 going to be doing something. 3:31:32.320 --> 3:31:34.640 More detailed about this in the future, But a lot 3:31:34.680 --> 3:31:35.320 of what you're. 3:31:35.200 --> 3:31:37.480 Seeing from these big social media companies and these like 3:31:37.560 --> 3:31:42.320 big pivots, right are moves in desperation. This is not 3:31:42.560 --> 3:31:45.720 working as well as it used to. The economics that 3:31:45.800 --> 3:31:49.040 once underpin this system are falling apart. None of these 3:31:49.120 --> 3:31:52.480 companies are as profitable as they used to be, and 3:31:53.280 --> 3:31:57.360 people are pulling away from social media, particularly from like 3:31:57.840 --> 3:32:00.880 a lot of the text based social media sites which 3:32:00.920 --> 3:32:04.200 were never as profitable as like short form video was. 3:32:04.480 --> 3:32:09.080 So I don't know, that's something that made me less bummed. 3:32:10.120 --> 3:32:12.480 Well, I hope, I hope she gets certainly all the 3:32:12.520 --> 3:32:14.760 money they got from X and learning how much money 3:32:14.800 --> 3:32:18.959 that was will be super interesting in discovery and hopefully 3:32:19.560 --> 3:32:21.600 much much much more money as well. 3:32:22.360 --> 3:32:22.600 Yeah. 3:32:23.120 --> 3:32:28.879 Yeah, speaking of money, James, you wanted to plug a donation. 3:32:29.480 --> 3:32:29.920 That's right. 3:32:30.040 --> 3:32:33.280 Yeah, I want to talk retty briefly about the guys 3:32:33.320 --> 3:32:36.359 from Cobra column. So Cobra Column if people aren't familiar, 3:32:36.720 --> 3:32:41.360 it's a special Forces or it's a PDF that is 3:32:41.440 --> 3:32:46.680 aligned with the Korn National Union Crerand National Liberation Army 3:32:47.160 --> 3:32:49.560 and the struggle for liberation in the m R against 3:32:49.560 --> 3:32:53.720 the Hunter Right. They have been fighting intensely in an 3:32:53.760 --> 3:32:57.160 area near reality, place that Robert and I spend some time, 3:32:57.240 --> 3:32:59.680 actually just across the river from place Robin I spend 3:32:59.720 --> 3:33:03.440 some time. Albeit the Hunter has successfully launched munitions into 3:33:03.440 --> 3:33:07.440 Thailand several times now, and they are really like if 3:33:07.480 --> 3:33:09.920 you want to look at the front line of people's 3:33:09.959 --> 3:33:14.480 autonomy against autocracy, against dictatorship, against tyranny, like they are 3:33:14.560 --> 3:33:18.000 at it, and they need money to sustain their efforts, 3:33:18.080 --> 3:33:20.480 to feed themselves, to equip themselves, to buy medical equipment, 3:33:21.000 --> 3:33:23.320 and I think they're also trying to buy like a 3:33:23.400 --> 3:33:26.680 replacement helmets and body armor because they're keep getting hit 3:33:26.760 --> 3:33:29.640 by drones, right, and people have survivable injuries, but their 3:33:29.760 --> 3:33:32.320 armor is destroyed. If you'd like to help, you can 3:33:32.480 --> 3:33:36.760 send fifteen euros for ten stickers. Stickers have the Milk 3:33:36.840 --> 3:33:39.840 Tea Alliance salute, which is the same as the salute 3:33:39.879 --> 3:33:42.720 that the cub Scouts use and the one from Hunger Games. 3:33:43.240 --> 3:33:45.080 I'm not going to describe it because you can work 3:33:45.120 --> 3:33:50.240 it out. It is stickers for Meanmar at ProtonMail dot com. 3:33:50.440 --> 3:33:53.720 You can send fifteen euros for two stickers. That's s 3:33:53.800 --> 3:33:56.680 T I C K E R S f O R 3:33:57.000 --> 3:33:59.920 M y A N M A R at ProtonMail dot com. 3:34:00.680 --> 3:34:03.320 If you want to email us cool Zone Tips at 3:34:03.360 --> 3:34:06.560 proton don't me If it's a marketing email, I'll block you. 3:34:07.240 --> 3:34:08.840 Put a trans girl on your couch. 3:34:10.360 --> 3:34:11.039 We reported the. 3:34:11.080 --> 3:34:15.959 News hy, Bye, We reported the news. 3:34:22.080 --> 3:34:22.240 Hey. 3:34:22.400 --> 3:34:25.480 We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 3:34:25.520 --> 3:34:27.199 now until the heat death of the Universe. 3:34:27.959 --> 3:34:30.440 It could Happen Here is a production of pool Zone Media. 3:34:30.640 --> 3:34:33.680 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:34:33.800 --> 3:34:37.320 Foolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:34:37.440 --> 3:34:40.240 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 3:34:40.760 --> 3:34:42.640 You can now find sources where it Could Happen here 3:34:42.720 --> 3:34:44.520 listed directly in episode descriptions. 3:34:44.879 --> 3:34:45.640 Thanks for listening.