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Speaker 1: Also media, Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to let you know this is a compilation episode. So

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Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here

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Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for

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Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

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Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to it could happen here a podcast where I

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Speaker 2: explained fake money things that are actually real too, Molly, Molly,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming back on. I am

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Speaker 2: your host, Bio long. I am excited to learn now

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Speaker 2: long ago in a galaxy far far away. And I'm

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Speaker 2: saying this because I legitimately do not remember how many

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Speaker 2: weeks ago have you released the original one of this.

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Speaker 2: But back in that episode where we explain shadow banking,

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Speaker 2: I said that I had had to cut off the

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Speaker 2: part of the episode that was the reason why I

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Speaker 2: wrote it in the first voice, it happens to me

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Speaker 2: every week, Yes, so Comma, I've also kind of had

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Speaker 2: to split some of this episode off. That will probably

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Speaker 2: that will be another episode, probably with ezetron whenever I

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Speaker 2: have enough seconds in my life to pull all of

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Speaker 2: that together. But today we are here to talk about

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Speaker 2: the actual sort of shadow bank run. I guess you

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Speaker 2: would call it financial problems that caused me to write

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Speaker 2: the shadow banking episode in the first place.

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Speaker 3: Oh right, why I originally asked you what shadow banking

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Speaker 3: is some kind of economy problem? And there was like

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Speaker 3: a fake run on the fake banks.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and Molly, you will be extremely unhappy to note

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Speaker 2: that a big part of the reason why there was

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Speaker 2: the fake run on the fank banks was that the

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Speaker 2: shadow banks loaned a bunch of money to a different

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Speaker 2: type of shadow bank.

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Speaker 3: I don't think they should have done that, and.

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Speaker 2: That shadow bank went under. Great things are.

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Speaker 3: Happening here, but they're not FDIC insured.

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Speaker 4: Me ah, no, no, nope, nope.

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Speaker 2: So okay, this gets us back to our original definition

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Speaker 2: of a shadow bank, which is that it's a bank

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Speaker 2: that does banking things. That's not a bank, so it's

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Speaker 2: not ensured by the FDIC. They don't have to have

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Speaker 2: money on hand to make sure that they can't be

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Speaker 2: a bank run on them.

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Speaker 3: Right, So they just said no more transactions please.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So what Molly is referring to is a few

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Speaker 2: weeks ago. I guess maybe like a month ago. At

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Speaker 2: this point, there was actually a breakthrough into the kind

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Speaker 2: of mainstream ish of some stuff that I've been brewing

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Speaker 2: in the financial news for a while, and that was

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Speaker 2: that a bunch of companies, Morgan stan Lee and Blackrock

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Speaker 2: I think we're kind of the two biggest ones that

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Speaker 2: stopped this, although a bunch of these sort of smaller

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Speaker 2: what are called private credit firms also sort of did

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Speaker 2: things like this.

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Speaker 3: And so because they're not really banks, there's no regulation

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Speaker 3: that says they have have to serve their customers, right,

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Speaker 3: They can just say no, okay.

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Speaker 2: So this is part of what's really a shit show.

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Speaker 4: I guess let's start.

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Speaker 3: At the beginning. So what happened? Sorry I got as derailed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's run back to the specific thing we're talking

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Speaker 2: about here is a thing called private credit, and so

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Speaker 2: private credit, I'm just going to read this thing from

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Speaker 2: the teller window, which is, I don't know, the telor

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Speaker 2: window is actually a decently useful thing. Where the telor

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Speaker 2: window is the FED is like I'm going to explain

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Speaker 2: something to normal people. Now. The problem is that this

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Speaker 2: is still the Federal Reserve. So their explanation for normal people.

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Speaker 2: By normal people, they mean.

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Speaker 4: Like, I don't know, like dipshit day traders, right.

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Speaker 3: Normal people don't have questions about the Federal Reserve.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's like this is like for people who

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Speaker 2: are kind of know this stuff but are running into

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Speaker 2: this like arcane subfield for the first time. So I'm

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Speaker 2: just going to quote from them because I think it's

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Speaker 2: an interesting place to start. Although there is no universal definition,

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Speaker 2: which you know things are going great when our second

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Speaker 2: episode in a road talking about it, you can't all

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Speaker 2: agree what it's so good? It's so good, Although there

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Speaker 2: is no universal definition. Private credit generally refers to a

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Speaker 2: loan that is negotiated between a borrower and a small

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Speaker 2: group of non bank lenders. These non bank financial institution

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Speaker 2: lenders are typically alternative asset managers such as private equity firms,

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Speaker 2: who package loans in different investment vehicles. Other non bank

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Speaker 2: financial institutions like pension funds, insurance companies, and sovereign wealth

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Speaker 2: funds then invest in those vehicles. So this is the

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Speaker 2: stuff that we talked about from last episode, where Okay,

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Speaker 2: so you have multiple layers of shadow banks, right, you

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Speaker 2: have on the one hand that the private credit firms

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Speaker 2: are these these sort of groups that go in and

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Speaker 2: sometimes they're just their own things. There's a bunch of

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Speaker 2: different kinds of of them. Private equities firms tend to

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Speaker 2: have like one arm of the private equity firm that's there,

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Speaker 2: like this is our shiny private credit wing. There were

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Speaker 2: also these things called business development corporations which do these.

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Speaker 2: There are like other types of them too, But basically

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Speaker 2: what those companies do is they go in and they

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Speaker 2: negotiate a loan with a usually a pretty long term

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Speaker 2: for repayments on the loan with a company. Now, the

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Speaker 2: thing about these loans is that the terms of those

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Speaker 2: loans are secret from everybody. Yeah, even the people involved.

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Speaker 2: Well when I say secret, I mean the company that's

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Speaker 2: taking out the loan and the bank know how they work.

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Speaker 2: No one else does. And then what happens is these

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Speaker 2: are usually fairly risky loans, because if you weren't doing

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Speaker 2: a risky loan, you would get your money through like

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Speaker 2: a normal bank. Yeah, you will to do it normal style, right,

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Speaker 2: this is not normal style. These are risky. And then

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Speaker 2: they do the thing called curitization, which we talked about

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Speaker 2: last episode where you take a loan and do magic

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Speaker 2: to it and turn it into something that someone else

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Speaker 2: can buy.

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Speaker 3: Whatever happened to products and services? Meo, whatever happened to products?

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Speaker 2: Well, because products and services make less money than betting

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Speaker 2: on products and services. This is this is also where

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Speaker 2: this is all going. So there are some real issues

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Speaker 2: here with private credit.

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Speaker 3: So we're buying and selling money that isn't real, and

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Speaker 3: add the absence of money that isn't real. And then

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Speaker 3: so what happened when there was the run on the

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Speaker 3: fake bank.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's that's kind of work because you how can

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Speaker 2: you do a run on a bank if there's no

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Speaker 2: money because you're not asking to get your money back

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Speaker 2: out of it because.

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Speaker 3: There was never any money.

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Speaker 2: Well, so here's the thing. So a lot of the

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Speaker 2: way that these things work sometimes like they are obviously

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Speaker 2: selling the loans and packages, but a lot of the

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Speaker 2: way that it works is that it does kind of

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Speaker 2: work like a normal bank, which is, I mean, instead

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Speaker 2: of being a lender, you're like an investor, but you

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Speaker 2: give them a bunch of your money and they give

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Speaker 2: it to these loan things. So it is just literally

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Speaker 2: a normal bank, except it's not subject to banking regulations

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Speaker 2: and it's risk here, right, So like like Apollo Capital

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Speaker 2: Management or whatever, it's like you give a bunch of

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Speaker 2: money to Apollo Capital Management, just like lower capital whatever

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Speaker 2: is like Apollogobal Capital is one of the big firms

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Speaker 2: in this thing, and then they give that money out

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Speaker 2: and loans and then you're basically just supposed to wait

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Speaker 2: because you know, remember last episode we talked about how

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Speaker 2: in the way that normal bank works, Right, there's like

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Speaker 2: a fundamental kind of gap right where you are putting

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Speaker 2: your money in as like a short term thing that

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Speaker 2: you can take out immediately, and then the bank is

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Speaker 2: turning the short term money into a long term loan.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: It takes time for the money to grow up.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And the reason we have financial regulations is to

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Speaker 2: force the banks to have money on hand so that

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Speaker 2: if you need your money back, you can take it out. Now,

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Speaker 2: these banks don't have this because these are shadow banks.

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Speaker 4: They're the credit rs of private equity.

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Speaker 2: They're fucking, I don't know, they're like capital management firms.

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Speaker 3: They're like dude, Right, So, like a normal run on

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Speaker 3: the bank is like obviously the bank doesn't have one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent of all like I put cash in the bank.

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Speaker 3: We all put cash in the bank, and everyone wants

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Speaker 3: all their cash back. The bank doesn't have one hundred

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Speaker 3: percent of that cash to get that, right, It's like

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Speaker 3: they haven't invested, and it hasn't those loans haven't.

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Speaker 4: Matured yet and things like that.

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Speaker 3: But theoretically, if all those loans matured, that bank does

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Speaker 3: have all of those dollars. But the shadow bank, they're

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Speaker 3: selling these same loans to multiple people, So even if

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Speaker 3: everything matured properly, they don't have all of those dollars anymore.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, dollars don't all exist.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Jimmy fair, the bank's dollars also work like

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Speaker 2: that because the banks are also selling their loans off.

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Speaker 3: But well, you're saying that they were using like the

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Speaker 3: same mortgage to secure a bunch of different.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, so that's like, yeah, that's like a classic

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Speaker 2: shadow banking thing. We're actually going to get back to

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Speaker 2: that because they're doing an even dumber version of that now.

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Speaker 3: I'm just saying it seems like a run on the

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Speaker 3: bank would be kind of inevitable even in a minor crisis,

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Speaker 3: because they're too have most of the money they're pretending

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Speaker 3: exists yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, but so okay, So I think what I would

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Speaker 2: say about that is that this is also a problem

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Speaker 2: for regular banks, right, Like I don't think this is

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Speaker 2: actually a structurally different crisis, like because like the crisis

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Speaker 2: here is just that the money is out in loans

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Speaker 2: and they they don't have it on hand. And this

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Speaker 2: is the structural crisis that the private credit people are doing,

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Speaker 2: is that their money is also out on loans, so

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Speaker 2: they don't have it. And a lot of these loans

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Speaker 2: are like seven year loans in like very risky companies.

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Speaker 2: So the money like really isn't.

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Speaker 3: There, right because that venture capital like whatever is that's

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Speaker 3: an inflated valuation. So you're talking about like almost ten

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Speaker 3: billion dollars, but it isn't it never will be, and

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Speaker 3: it never was.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, and the other thing that's going on too, right,

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Speaker 2: it is like these are supposed to be risky loans,

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Speaker 2: so they have a high rate of.

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Speaker 4: Return if they return.

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Speaker 2: But yes, and this and this is where this gets

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Speaker 2: not good because so the US private credit market is

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Speaker 2: one point three trillion dollars like under management. The global

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Speaker 2: market is like three point five trillion dollars of assets.

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Speaker 2: I'm not really going to go into the Chinese private

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Speaker 2: credit market here, because that's its own episode. But the

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Speaker 2: way that these that these companies deal with this is

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Speaker 2: that they have these funds, right, and then the fund

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Speaker 2: gives out like the loans, and they have a limit

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Speaker 2: to the total amount of like the percent of the

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Speaker 2: value of the fund that can be taken out at

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Speaker 2: one time. And that's what's been being hit. The industry

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Speaker 2: standard is supposed to be about five percent of the

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Speaker 2: fund can be withdrawn per quarter, and then after that

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Speaker 2: they just shut down redemptions. And that's what you saw

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Speaker 2: in the news because a bunch of companies, and some

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Speaker 2: of these companies have higher limits than are like almost

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Speaker 2: like eight or nine, like like ten percent, and they'll

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Speaker 2: stop it at like nine roughly.

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Speaker 3: So, more than anything, shutting down redemptions is an indicator

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Speaker 3: that the market has panicked, right, that the investors are

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Speaker 3: spooked and they want their money back because this risky

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Speaker 3: investment is now looking like a very bad choice.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but this is a real structural problem because right.

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Speaker 3: But like as a measurement of something, it's just like

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Speaker 3: what we're measuring is how many investors are shitting their pants.

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Speaker 2: And there's a reason they're shitting their pants, and the

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Speaker 2: reason they're shitting their pants is that basically all of

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Speaker 2: these firms have been eating a colossal amount of shit.

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Speaker 2: And the reason they're eating a colossal amount.

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Speaker 4: Of shit, I mean, some of it is very stupid.

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Speaker 2: Some of them are eating shit because they gave money

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Speaker 2: to like normal tech firms, but then now they're all

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Speaker 2: scared they're gonna get out competed by AI firms. Some

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Speaker 2: of them have given a bunch of money Blue Owl particularly,

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Speaker 2: and this is what we're gonna get into in the

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Speaker 2: episode with Ed has given a lot of money to

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Speaker 2: AI firms, which is a fucking nightmare. Great investment, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: incredible stuff going on.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure. I'm sure that's what Ed will say. Ed

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Speaker 3: will say that was a good investment.

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Speaker 2: It's so fun. It's so fun. The main thing that

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Speaker 2: they've been eating shit on. And this is where this

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Speaker 2: kind of hit the mainstream because a whole bunch of

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Speaker 2: normal banks also ate shit on this JP Morgan ate

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Speaker 2: shit on this loan. So a huge amount of money

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Speaker 2: was poured into this firm called Tricolor, which we touched

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Speaker 2: on briefly last episode but then didn't really talk about much.

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Speaker 6: About what it did.

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Speaker 2: So, Okay, JP Morgan has lost one hundred and seventy

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Speaker 2: million dollars. Oh no, big gill Yeah, which and it's

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Speaker 2: fun It's funny because like the JP Morgan CEO were like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we kind of ate shit on this, and also their

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Speaker 2: CEO gave this quote where he was like, where there's

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Speaker 2: one cockroach, there's probably more, which is like an extremely

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Speaker 2: normal thing for the finance kind of saying about the market.

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Speaker 3: Haven't we have an infestation of accidentally losing one hundred

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Speaker 3: and seventy million dollars?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's not great, but like in the

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Speaker 2: grand scheme of things, right, like JP Morgan does have

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Speaker 2: four trillion or something dollars under management.

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Speaker 3: Right, But if he's saying, if there's one cockroach, there's more, yeah,

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Speaker 3: Usually if you have one cockroach, you have one hundred cockroaches.

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Speaker 3: So if you have one hundred, one hundred and seventy

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Speaker 3: million dollar fuck.

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Speaker 2: Ups, yes, and that's not great, right. And like Barclays,

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Speaker 2: which is the very sort of like prestigious British bank,

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Speaker 2: which also ate shit for doing this kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Two two thousand and eight also lost like one hundred

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Speaker 2: million pounds what's interesting about this specific one is this firm, Tricolor,

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Speaker 2: is a subprime auto loan company.

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Speaker 4: Oh, that's a phenomenal business model, Molly.

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Speaker 3: So they're responsible for the Nissan Ultima.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is that this is what is known as

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Speaker 2: an idea that could not possibly have gone right. It's

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Speaker 2: very funny because when you read the stuff from Tricolor,

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Speaker 2: they're all like, oh, we're trying to like help people

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Speaker 2: who are like underserved in markets who need cars.

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Speaker 3: Oh so, but here's the thing about a shitty auto

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Speaker 3: loan is you know, right, you are serving an underserved community.

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Speaker 3: You are serving people with bad credit who might not

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Speaker 3: otherwise be able to get a car. But you're serving

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Speaker 3: them by fucking them. Yes, and this is what you

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Speaker 3: can tell. Yeah, they they know that they're lying about this, right,

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Speaker 3: it's just so evil.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And like this is all downstream of you know,

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Speaker 2: this is all downstream with the fact that we've built

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Speaker 2: our cities around cars, right, And we built our cities

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Speaker 2: around cars specifically, and this is a really fun thing.

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Speaker 2: We built our cities around cars specifically because we had

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Speaker 2: created so much manufacturing capacity after World War Two that

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Speaker 2: like Ford and General Motors had like pumped into that.

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Speaker 2: They were like, we need a fucking way to make

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Speaker 2: money off of all of this. And this is also,

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Speaker 2: by the way, why we did the Marshall Plan, like

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Speaker 2: we rebuilt Europe to sell cars to them.

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Speaker 3: It's this terrible snowball of like induced demand and then

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Speaker 3: dealing with that and then the fallout of that, and yeah,

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Speaker 3: trying to reorganize from that. Yeah, and we have destroyed

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Speaker 3: the world with this.

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Speaker 4: It rocks.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Henry Ford.

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Speaker 2: It's so good.

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Speaker 6: It's so good.

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Speaker 2: We have literally like Earth is fucked because of this.

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Speaker 2: This is like one of the largest engines of global

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Speaker 2: climate change is the fact that we had all these

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Speaker 2: fucking factories after World War Two and these companies didn't

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Speaker 2: want to eat shit on them.

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Speaker 3: So now so everybody needs a car, but they can't

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Speaker 3: afford one. So now we have a fake bank doing

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Speaker 3: fake fucking auto loans.

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Speaker 6: Yep.

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Speaker 2: Who By the way, and I kind of emphasize this enough, right,

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Speaker 2: The hole that we are in here is that there

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Speaker 2: is in theory, if you're gonna be running a market economy,

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Speaker 2: there is like room in it for Hey, this person

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Speaker 2: has a long shot but good business idea, and we

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Speaker 2: need to get the money.

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Speaker 3: Sure, Like there's nothing wrong with the idea of loans.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but if your whole.

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Speaker 3: Business model is exploiting people who need loans, yeah.

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Speaker 2: But this is you know, this is going one layer

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Speaker 2: up from like this subprime model loan company.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 2: The problem that we're going to hit with all of

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Speaker 2: these private credit firms is that they're giving loans to

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Speaker 2: just this shit.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 2: The things that they're giving high risk loans to aren't

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Speaker 2: like interesting businesses. They're subprime auto loan companies and they're

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Speaker 2: like weird ai data center creation companies. Right, It's like

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Speaker 2: that shit. And this is this is where everything goes

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Speaker 2: to shit because you know, and it's something that actually

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Speaker 2: wasn't really reported on very much in in a lot

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Speaker 2: of the coverage on these companies eating shit. But like

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Speaker 2: what this company was doing was they were literally doing

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Speaker 2: all of the two thousand and eight stuff.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 2: They give out these subprime loans, which they know like

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Speaker 2: a bunch of them are going to fail, They pull

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Speaker 2: them all together into these like tranches of loans, and

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Speaker 2: then they sell them off doing doing the secure stuff

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Speaker 2: we talked about last time, and again this is literally

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Speaker 2: exactly how the subprime mortgage crisis worked, except we're doing

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Speaker 2: it with auto loans. It seems a little bit more evil. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And they're doing this thing right. They're doing the thing

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Speaker 2: that we saw with the housing loans, where the same

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Speaker 2: card is collateral for multiple of these loans. And the

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Speaker 2: reason they're doing this right is that this company, Tricolor,

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Speaker 2: their entire business model is trying to borrow more money

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Speaker 2: from banks so that they can send out more of

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Speaker 2: these shitty auto loans so they can then sell that

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Speaker 2: stuff back. And so they're also like heavily leveraged, right

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Speaker 2: because they're they're taking out like every single loan they

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Speaker 2: can possibly do. They're doing instruments so that they're the

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Speaker 2: collateral on the loans that they are taking. So they

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Speaker 2: take that money and give out more of these shitty

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Speaker 2: auto loans. The collateral on that is multiple of the

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Speaker 2: shitty auto loans.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I would say it's a house of cards,

363
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Speaker 3: but like, ye, it's not even it's not even that

364
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Speaker 3: it's imaginary. It's just it's h like the bottom row

365
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:02,920
Speaker 3: on this house of cards is just your imagination.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's wildly coyote running off the cliff and

367
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Speaker 2: he's just sitting there and as long as his feet

368
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,679
Speaker 2: are moving, no one realizes that that like, wait, hold on,

369
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:13,680
Speaker 2: this is the This is literally the fakest thing I've

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Speaker 2: ever seen. And then it goes under and this is

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00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,680
Speaker 2: a shit show. That's the only possible outcome, the only

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Speaker 2: possile way it could have one under is like we've

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Speaker 2: we've done this before, we all washed two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 3: But there's not like an ideal version of this where

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Speaker 3: it works.

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Speaker 4: This can only not work. Yeah, it's insane.

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Speaker 2: It's like, why are we doing because there was one

378
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Speaker 2: year where it made a billion dollars?

379
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Speaker 3: Right, Buying Ponzi schemes are really profitable the first year.

380
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Speaker 4: Right, right, that's like that's the thing, right.

381
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 3: It really it works out really good for the first guy.

382
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like like part of what's going on here

383
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Speaker 2: too is you know, like and this is some of

384
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Speaker 2: the stuff that caused the original bubble. But like we

385
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,919
Speaker 2: have this era like the the early twenty twenties and

386
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Speaker 2: like late twenty tens that's like the zero fed in

387
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 2: just rate errow, right, where like it is basically just

388
00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,639
Speaker 2: free to borrow money, and so there's just all of

389
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,320
Speaker 2: this money slashing around that there's nothing to invest into.

390
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:15,480
Speaker 2: This fuels all sorts of just like heinous shit, right,

391
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,199
Speaker 2: because there's suddenly just like all of these pools of

392
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,240
Speaker 2: capital with like nothing to invest in, and so they're

393
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,520
Speaker 2: investing it in like defense companies and like Palanier and shit,

394
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:25,080
Speaker 2: like that.

395
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 4: Is this why we got stuff like the juice.

396
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,959
Speaker 2: Ro Yeah, but that's like the everything right is like no,

397
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,720
Speaker 2: but like like like the JUICEO thing is like legitimate.

398
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,040
Speaker 3: Venture capital was just like pouring money into stuff that

399
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,520
Speaker 3: was just like not fucking real. Yeah you could, you

400
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:38,880
Speaker 3: could juice fruit a huh.

401
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,440
Speaker 2: And like like this is you know, I talked about

402
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,840
Speaker 2: this on a different episode about venture capital, and like

403
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,040
Speaker 2: the way that it's done tech fascistm right, was eventually

404
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,560
Speaker 2: they started putting that money into like building the material

405
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,840
Speaker 2: basis for like a tech fascist state. And that's what

406
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:53,520
Speaker 2: they've been doing in sort of I.

407
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,879
Speaker 3: Kind of wish they stuck to their cocaine ideas.

408
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:56,080
Speaker 4: Like juice ero.

409
00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a better more fun than fascism. No,

410
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 2: it's more fun than like turning every single door in

411
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,320
Speaker 2: every single car in San Francisco into a surveillance machine

412
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:10,879
Speaker 2: and then like going in and like basically cooing governments

413
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 2: and yeah, but on the sort of like pure financial

414
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,560
Speaker 2: end of this, you get all of these companies that

415
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 2: are just pouring all of this money into there's those

416
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 2: layers of this too, right where like you know, if

417
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 2: you're like like JP Morgan, which is like an actual bank,

418
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 2: right one, Yeah, yeah, the real one is like pouring

419
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 2: money into these like into these like shadow banks, right

420
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,239
Speaker 2: because they're they're chasing a high rate of return. And

421
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 2: this is like what happened in two thousand and eight

422
00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 2: was like there everyone was like, oh, these bonds have

423
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,400
Speaker 2: a really high rated return, the mortgage rack securities. And

424
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 2: now we've reached the point where I think, God where

425
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,200
Speaker 2: this is the most recent news from this and Molly,

426
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna read you the thing from Reuters quote

427
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,439
Speaker 2: JP Morgan, Chase, Barclays and other Wall Street banks have

428
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 2: started trading credit default swaps linked to flagship private credit

429
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:13,199
Speaker 2: funds run by Blackstone, Apollo Global Management, and Aris Managements,

430
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,360
Speaker 2: the Financial Times reported on Friday.

431
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 3: And that's a good idea for them to do.

432
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Speaker 2: Oh this is really fun because now what we're doing

433
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 2: is they're now opening the markets to bet on these

434
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 2: things to fail.

435
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:43,159
Speaker 3: Ray, I just I don't understand why so much of

436
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 3: the economy is based on these bets that bad things

437
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 3: will happen. Yeah, it's like if everything collapses, some guys

438
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,120
Speaker 3: are gonna get so rich. If a thousand people get

439
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,640
Speaker 3: their cars repossessed, one guy gets so rich. Like that's

440
00:21:58,640 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 3: not a great way to run an.

441
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 2: Economy, you know. John Mayard Kines a guy who is

442
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 2: I would argue responsible for this. This is his fault

443
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,879
Speaker 2: for like stabilizing the capitalist economies in the middle of

444
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 2: the Great Depression. But Canes is like a welfare state guy,

445
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 2: but he's also a capitalist. And he has this line

446
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 2: about how, like the economy shouldn't be run by a casino,

447
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 2: to which I would be like, okay, Canes, but like.

448
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 3: The economy is a casino.

449
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 6: Yeah.

450
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:26,920
Speaker 4: It's like it's like, this.

451
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,439
Speaker 2: Is your fault for not being willing to like not

452
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: have a market economy, right, Like, like we could, we

453
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 2: could achieve the dream of not having your economy be

454
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 2: run by a casino. This is a thing that you

455
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 2: could do. It's just that you can't.

456
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 4: Was a youth before.

457
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 3: I don't think he realized that, like we literally do

458
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 3: have a.

459
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,639
Speaker 2: Casttell one kind of did, right, because it's it's not

460
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:50,880
Speaker 2: a euphemism anymore.

461
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 3: I'm going to necromans him and tell him about polymarket.

462
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,400
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he he would lose his mind about polymarket.

463
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 2: But like, like he's watching people just like betting on

464
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 2: stock right, and he's watching a bunch of people.

465
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 3: Have the Ouiji board and tell that bitch about college.

466
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 2: Well you know this, this this is like we're going

467
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 2: back in time and showing him Calshi and he's like,

468
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 2: oh fuck, okay, I'm like I am now again. I

469
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 2: am now against the market as an idea. We cannot

470
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 2: let this come to pass. But like you know this,

471
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 2: this this has been like a known issue with the

472
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 2: market as a system for a long time. But it's

473
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: a problem because in theory you could try to go

474
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,880
Speaker 2: through and like regulate this stuff, but like investment is

475
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 2: just gambling to some extent, right, And when you talk

476
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 2: to the people who believe in this stuff, they're like, well, no,

477
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 2: you can't have stock markets without sort of equities markets,

478
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 2: and you can't have these things without the ability to

479
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 2: bet on it. And I would say, okay, well don't

480
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,880
Speaker 2: have it then, Like I think this is a really

481
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 2: simple solution. But you know, these people are like, no, no, no, no.

482
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 2: In order to mention a capital's economy, you must it

483
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 2: must be possible for a bunch of people to be

484
00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: placing bets on the companies that give money to some

485
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: I'm auto loan companies failing.

486
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 3: I guess that's the point where like I get off

487
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 3: the train where you say, well, in order to maintain

488
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 3: a capitalist economy, and I'm like, yeah, exactly, dog, I.

489
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 5: Don't want to do that, and like, this is why

490
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 5: this is a terrible idea, Like it's it's a bad

491
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 5: idea for first principles, and we're all living in like

492
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 5: the nightmare healthscape of this being a bad idea.

493
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the movie that's maybe that's why I can't

494
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 3: get it, because this does make some kind of sense

495
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 3: to like an evil guy who wants it to be

496
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 3: this way, but I don't want it to be this way.

497
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and I very deliberately I went and I

498
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 2: went into when I was learning economics and when I

499
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,640
Speaker 2: was learning political economy from the perspective of like, okay,

500
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 2: how do you destroy this right and this part, this

501
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 2: part seems fragile. Yeah, but it's like one of these

502
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: things where it's like, okay, this is going to break

503
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 2: on its own.

504
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 3: But I guess the problem is is it does keep

505
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 3: breaking on its own. It's just that we keep bailing

506
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: it out and reconstructing it, propping up the house built

507
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 3: on sand.

508
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the part, or you know, like this

509
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: is a thing where the intervention of masses of people

510
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: onto the stage of history has to happen. Where if

511
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: you want this to not be the way that the

512
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: system works when it breaks down, you have to be

513
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: organized enough to be like, no, fuck this, We're not

514
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 2: going to sacrifice all of our lives to reopen the casino.

515
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 2: We are going to either tear the casino down or

516
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: turn the casino into like housing or whatever.

517
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 3: So when there was this run on the fake banks

518
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 3: and they stopped it, what happened after that? I guess

519
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 3: because that was my original question, right, It's like, what

520
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 3: does the run on a fake bank even look like

521
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 3: or do?

522
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 2: Yeah? So basically what happened is that they just like

523
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 2: stopped the redemptions and everyone got really really pissed off.

524
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 2: But there's not that much they can do about it because.

525
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 3: Because I'm sure that was in the terms and conditions

526
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 3: whenever they signed up to do financial crimes together.

527
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. And what's been happening now though, is that this

528
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: is this has been spreading kind of panic about just

529
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 2: I don't know, they would call it like the asset

530
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: class in general.

531
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 3: Oh, like, maybe it wasn't a good idea to invest

532
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 3: all your money into this fake product.

533
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 2: No, it was, in fact a terrible idea. And this

534
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: is this is, this is I think why we're we've

535
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 2: mismanaged your client's funds. Yeah, and this this is I

536
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: think why we're starting to get the like Blackrock fucking

537
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 2: credit default swaps, right, because the market is being like, oh, hey,

538
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 2: all these people are pissed off about the fact that

539
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 2: we designed our unhinged private credit shadow banking system in

540
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: such a way that you can't get your money out

541
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: of it. What if we capitalize on that by letting

542
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 2: people bet on it? And that's that's good. So right

543
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 2: now we're in this kind of limbo world and this

544
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 2: is this is this is the entire global economy, right.

545
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 2: Everyone is sitting here pretending like the apocalypse isn't happening.

546
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 2: And that's the basis of the entire economy. I mean,

547
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 2: what am I supposed to do about it?

548
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 6: Yeah?

549
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 2: But it's like, you know, but there's there's there's a

550
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 2: difference between you and us doing this and the people

551
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 2: who have all of the money in the world who

552
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 2: are sitting there pretending that like there's like some very

553
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 2: easy way out of this war that we're that we're

554
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 2: waging as lebron right, and that it's not going to

555
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 2: just keep going even though there's no good way to

556
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 2: get a ceasefire. And you know, like no one, no

557
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 2: one in charge of the US as any idea what

558
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: they're doing. They're they're they're in some ways, they're they're

559
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: doing the strategy they did in like the lockdown phase

560
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 2: of the pandemic, where they're.

561
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 3: Just waiting for it to burn itself out.

562
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, where they're like, Okay, well we're going to ask

563
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 2: for a bunch of money.

564
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 3: But when you do that with the global economy.

565
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And like I had a friend who described

566
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 2: it as like the fundamental problems that these people are

567
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: incentivized to just think that everything will keep going right

568
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 2: for them because.

569
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 4: It has because eventually it will right, they'll be fine.

570
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, But like eventually there's a point where that runs out,

571
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 2: and when it hits there's going to be this sort

572
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 2: of chilling discovery that like, oh yeah, the entire last

573
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 2: like fifteen years of their sort of being an economy

574
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: has been this like weird tech capitalist mirage, and once

575
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: that fails, we I guess we're already in the time

576
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 2: of monsters.

577
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 4: So whoo oh.

578
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 3: I don't have any other marketable skills. You can't collapse.

579
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: I'm a podcaster.

580
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Hum, well, this has been it could happen here

581
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 2: it did I learn anything? I don't know, honestly, this

582
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 2: is just they're doing it all again, and it's even

583
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 2: dumber this time. Oh god.

584
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, at least there were houses last time. Now there's

585
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 3: not even a no.

586
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 2: Now there's a problem. Shitty auto loans. Mollie. Where can

587
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: people find your very very lovely show.

588
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 3: You can find me wherever you get your podcast, you

589
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 3: can subscribe to my show, Weird Little Guys. It's fun,

590
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 3: you'll like it. Yeah. I'm in the middle of a

591
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 3: series right now about a segregationist attorney who loved the

592
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 3: Confederacy so much that he built a twenty five foot

593
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 3: tall Confederate monument out of old bathtubs. It's fun, you'll

594
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 3: love it.

595
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 2: Does he blow up a school bus? This is fine, No.

596
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 3: But he did go to YMC a night YMC a

597
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 3: Night Last, which is a night law school through the

598
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 3: YMCA in Nashville, so that he could get better at

599
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 3: doing segregation.

600
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 4: Like he wasn't a lawyer.

601
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 3: And then in mid life he was like, I were

602
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 3: go to law school at night so he could do

603
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 3: busing cases, so he could take bussing cases. So he

604
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 3: didn't blow any buses up, but he did blow up.

605
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 4: A lot of people's lives.

606
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 3: Great, but that great anyway, check out We're little guys.

607
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And if you want to stop there from being

608
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 2: both we're little guys and also having our economy be

609
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 2: run on betting on funny money, go like organize a union,

610
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 2: or like join your local affinity group, or start doing

611
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 2: food not bombs, or do what literally literally do anything,

612
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 2: because if we do nothing, we will continue to live

613
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,479
Speaker 2: in the world of the segregation lawyer who build statues

614
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 2: out of bathtubs, and also the subprime auto loan defaults.

615
00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 4: At least go outside and take a walk.

616
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 7: Yeah.

617
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 8: The National Geographics Encyclopedia says that indigenous refers to people

618
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 8: or objects that are native to a certain region or environment,

619
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 8: whether they grow there, live there, or produced there, or

620
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 8: occur naturally there. When it comes to flora and fauna,

621
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 8: they are considered indigenous to an ecosystem when they haven't

622
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 8: been introduced through human intervention or manipulated by human cultivation.

623
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 8: Over millions of years, these living things have become well

624
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 8: suited to their habitats, carefully adapted to the region's soil, climate,

625
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 8: and food web. Or when it comes to people, it

626
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 8: can be some confusion about what it means to be indigenous,

627
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 8: especially when it comes to questions of land rights, autonomy,

628
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 8: and a rapria. Most people understand that Native American nations

629
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 8: and Aboriginal Austragulians are indigenous, but some might then ask, well,

630
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 8: if indigenous means originating from a place, then aren't all

631
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 8: holesapiens indigenous to Africa? Why should one group's claim of

632
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 8: indigena and you take precedence over any other. This would

633
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 8: be asked in more or less good faith, and so

634
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 8: others may ask the question, well, if a group occupies

635
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 8: a region for several generations, does that then make them indigenous?

636
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 8: White Americans indigenous if their family has been there since

637
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 8: they found in the United States, French people indigenous to France,

638
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 8: and if so does that somehow justify their xenophobia to

639
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 8: water refugees and some weird reactionary corruption of declonial rhetoric.

640
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 8: Speaking of corruptions of de colonial rhetoric, some Zionists claim

641
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 8: that Jewish people as a whole are indigenous to Palestine

642
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 8: in some twisted perversion of land back, while Zionism itself

643
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 8: has long understood itself as a colonial project meant to

644
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 8: displace and eliminate the indigenous inhabitants of past Die from

645
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 8: its very beginning. Some white nationalists also argue that settler

646
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 8: columnalism was really no different than any other conflict between

647
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 8: indigenous people, So what does it even matter? Might mix

648
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 8: right among? Generations of marginalized groups have been struggling to

649
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 8: retain their social, cultural, economic, and political sovereignty and achieved justice, reparations,

650
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 8: liberation after centuries of oppression and attempted annihilation. We need

651
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 8: to stand in informed solidarity. Thus it is vital for

652
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 8: us to understand what it means to be indigenous. Welcome

653
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 8: take it up here. I'm Andrew Sage Andrewism on YouTube

654
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 8: and I'm here again.

655
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 2: With Miir Wong, the other host of this podcast.

656
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 8: Yes, and we are here to discuss two approaches to

657
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 8: understand and indignity. Obviously, this is not the final word

658
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 8: on the matter, but just one perspective that I've drawn

659
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 8: primarily from the work of North American Indigenous authors, namely

660
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 8: Tayaki Alfred, Jeff Conticel, and Robin Wall Kimera. So you know,

661
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 8: keep that in mind as we proceed. There may be

662
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 8: other positions and perspectives and indignity coming from other groups,

663
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 8: other people, and so I believe there are two principle

664
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 8: highly overlapping ways that indignity can be defined or interpreted.

665
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 8: One is as an identity formed as part of a

666
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 8: colonial relationship, and two as an identity rooted in a

667
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 8: relationship to police. I believe that each definition is incomplete

668
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 8: without the other. But by understanding and synthesizing each notion

669
00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 8: of indigenousness, we can better ground our approach dec organization

670
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 8: and social revolution. So let's start with indignity as identity

671
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 8: rooted in a relationship to place, whether it be physical

672
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 8: as with land, social as with community, or cultural as

673
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 8: with culture. As indigenous relationship to the land must be

674
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 8: reciprocal with give and take, base on a view of

675
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 8: the land and water as a gift that must be

676
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 8: cared for over generations. According to Honotiony mythology, as recounted

677
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 8: by Robin Wild Kimra in braidin Sweet Grass, the mother

678
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 8: goddess Skywoman came to the land as an immigrant from

679
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 8: the heavens, but became indigenous by listening to the land,

680
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 8: learning from other species to understand how to live on it,

681
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 8: given as she received, and caring for the earth and

682
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 8: its keepers for the sake of those who would inherit

683
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 8: it when she passed on. Land is identity, it is

684
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 8: ancestral connection, It is pharmacy, it is library, and it

685
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 8: is home, the source of all the sustains and the

686
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 8: sacred ground upon which those would observe their responsibility to boot.

687
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 8: So by this understanding, it can be said that indigenity

688
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 8: is born out of land connection and established through observation

689
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 8: and relationship. Indigenous peoples have historically been mobile, either by

690
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 8: choice or by force, but regardless of where they might

691
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 8: find themselves quote unquote whole land or not, even if

692
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 8: there were other indigenous peoples in their new environments, as

693
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 8: long as they observe the processes and ceremonies of generational

694
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 8: relationship building based on mutual respect, understanding, and love for

695
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 8: the land in common, they remained indigenous. So then the

696
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 8: question may arise, why aren't settlers indigenous to place if

697
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 8: their family has lived in the land for generations. The

698
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 8: answer lies in relationship. Settler society as a whole is

699
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 8: based on an extractivist capitalist relationship with the land. Focus

700
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 8: are exploiting the land and it's now natural resources. Without

701
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 8: a relationship with the land that extends the reference to

702
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 8: a deeper understanding of its complex interdependence, settler society can

703
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 8: never become indigenous to place. Of course, it goes without

704
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 8: saying that not every indigenous group or indigious practice is

705
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 8: perfectly sustainable. Some have been rather destructive and even speciocidal,

706
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 8: particularly when they have recently moved into a place, as

707
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 8: we could see in North American prehistory. But if we

708
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 8: are to work with this definition to conceive of being

709
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 8: indigenous as something based and cultivating a long term relationship

710
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 8: to place, then indignity must be contingent on maintaining the

711
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 8: health and longevity of that relationship. Without community, they cannot

712
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 8: be indignity. Much like the trees in a forest are

713
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 8: interconnected via subterranean networks of microreze which enable them to

714
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 8: share resources and survive as a whole. In order to

715
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 8: be indigenous to place, community must exist sustain that web

716
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,439
Speaker 8: of reciprocity with the land so that all may flourish.

717
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 8: Indigenaity to place extends to culture as well, which is

718
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 8: deeply tied to the land it develops on. Such practices

719
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 8: should be reciprocal, as ceremonies create communities, and communities create

720
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 8: ceremonies as well as organic not appropriate in existing cultural

721
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 8: celebrations or tending toward commercial. Our social fabric has become

722
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 8: withered and fragmented by the peace of modern life, leaving

723
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 8: little room for ceremonies outside of religion or rights of

724
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 8: personal transitions such as birth these weddings and funerals, but

725
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 8: ceremonies and the shared emotions they generate are part of

726
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 8: what builds community. When we gather for graduations, for example,

727
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 8: a sense of pride, relief, nostalgia, and excitement builds in

728
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 8: the social atmosphere, hopefully fuel in the confidence and strength

729
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 8: of those who are going on to pursue the rest

730
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 8: of their lives. But Kimura wants us to imagine standing

731
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 8: by a river flooded with those same feelings as the

732
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 8: salmon marched into the auditorium of the estuary. The indigenous

733
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:14,240
Speaker 8: to police means cultivating cultural ceremonies that on other land

734
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 8: and all the cycles and seasons of life within it.

735
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 8: What are your thoughts on that interpretation or approach to indigenousy.

736
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot there that's interesting. I think

737
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: I'm getting a better sense of what you were saying

738
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: at the beginning when you were like, this probably needs

739
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 2: to be synthesized with the definition that's also about like

740
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 2: a relationship to colonialism. Yeah, but you know, there's some

741
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 2: sort of fun question mark examples of like the Chinese

742
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 2: Empire failing this where it's like like you do have

743
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that's like, Okay, we're going to

744
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 2: like build a relationship in nature, but the build a

745
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 2: relationship in nature stuff is like we are going to

746
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 2: clear this forest in order to build a temple that

747
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 2: is like exactly set up on like a pentagram or whatever.

748
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 2: So it's like, okay, hold on, hold on, hold on.

749
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 2: We have failed in creating a relationship to the land

750
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 2: if we are in fact just making geometry shapes.

751
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think empires by then nature, yeah, are going

752
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 8: to run into some difficulties, to put it mildly, they're

753
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 8: going to run into some difficulties with actually maintaining a

754
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 8: reciprocal relationship with that because empires are built on extraction

755
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 8: of people and of resources, yep. Which you're absolutely right

756
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 8: that there has to be a synthesis of this definition

757
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 8: with the idea of indignity as a colonial relationship. According

758
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 8: to Taiyaki Alfred and Jeff Contis, indigenousness is an identity constructed, shaped,

759
00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 8: and lived in the politicized context of contemporary clue nalism.

760
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,720
Speaker 8: It is an experience oppositional to colonial societies and states,

761
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 8: and a consciousness of struggle against such forces of colonization.

762
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 8: No two indigenous groups are exactly alike, of course, there

763
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 8: is a significant diversity in their cultures, contexts, and relationships

764
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 8: with colonial forces, but they do share that struggle to

765
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 8: survive as distinct peoples in an environment hostile to their existence.

766
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 8: Efforts to marginalize and eradicate indigenous peoples may not always

767
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 8: be as overt as they once were, but the historic

768
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 8: and ongoing dispossession of indigenous peoples, the erasure of indigenous histories, geographies,

769
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 8: and languages and the current situation of deprivation persists. Nonetheless,

770
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 8: even so called reconciliation efforts are tainted by the reality

771
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 8: that Indigenous people remain, as in earlier colonial eras fundamentally

772
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 8: occupied and disempowered peoples, stripped of autonomy in their own

773
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 8: home life and pressured into surrender and cooperation with an

774
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 8: inherently unjust colonial order just to ensure their basic physical survival.

775
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 8: By this understanding of indigenity, it can be said that

776
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 8: without a colonizer, without systems in place and actions being

777
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 8: taken to marginalize, disempower and destroy their societies in favor

778
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 8: of a colonial replacement, there is no indigenous. Without colonialism,

779
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 8: there would be no status of indigenous to be imposed

780
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 8: upon the groups of peoples whose very existence and claimed

781
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 8: land is an obstacle to that colonial endeavor. The un

782
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 8: work In Group on Indigenous Issues drew partially from this

783
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 8: understanding when they attempted to define indigenous peoples in nineteen

784
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 8: eighty six. Quote Indigenous communities, peoples, and nations are those

785
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 8: which having a historical continuity with pre invasion and pre

786
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 8: colonial societies that develops on their territories, consider themselves distinct

787
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 8: from other sectors other societies now prevailing on those territories

788
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 8: or parts of them. They form at present non dominant

789
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 8: sectors of society and are determined to preserve, develop, and

790
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 8: transmit to future generations their ancestral territories and their ethnic

791
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 8: identity as the basis of their continued existence as peoples

792
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 8: in accordance with their own cultural patterns, social institutions, and

793
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 8: legal systems. And so by this definition, the Amerindians in

794
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 8: the Caribbean, Aboriginal Australians, Adivasis in India, Native North and

795
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 8: South Americans, Siberians, Ainu, kurds, Assyrians, Yazidi Palestinians, Amy Sikh Sambi, Basques, Hawaiians, Maori,

796
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 8: san Wuti, Papuans, Chams, and many many more are all

797
00:42:54,000 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 8: indigenous peoples. But there are layers of nuance yet to

798
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 8: be highlighted. The colonial situation is not a simple binary

799
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 8: of indigenous and colonizer. For example, in the Americas, we

800
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:24,439
Speaker 8: have the immigrant situation and the situation of slavery. Right

801
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 8: where Africans are concerned they were indigenous to their own

802
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 8: homelands but displaced and enslaved under the colonial regime, they

803
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 8: may not be indigenous to the Americas, but they were

804
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 8: not driving settled colonial society either. In fact, historically some

805
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 8: were actually enslaved by indigenous people as well. At the

806
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 8: same time, there were members of the African aspora who

807
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 8: would join existing indigenous societies and later create their own,

808
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 8: such as the Garifuna of Saint Vincent Tranduras and belize.

809
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 8: It's very attractive, i would say, or mentally compelling to

810
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 8: fall into these kinds of binaries colonizer and visions. But

811
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 8: we should not allow these constructs to pindhole picture. Yeah,

812
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 8: And I mean this is you mentioned the Kurds earlier, right,

813
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 8: And there's a couple of political principles that groups like

814
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 8: the pew Id, you know, and sort of like the

815
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 8: Kurtish Freedom Movement have had to grapple, like what of

816
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 8: their things is grappling with Like for example, there was

817
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 8: like huge Courtish participation in the Armenian genocide.

818
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 2: And if you look at the Kurdish Regional government in

819
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 2: a rock when I want to talk about the PEWID,

820
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 2: that's like like Curtaish freedom movement in Syria in a rock,

821
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 2: there's like the Iraqi Kurdish Regional government right, which is

822
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 2: run by a different group, but those people, you know,

823
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 2: and this is one of these things where like there

824
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 2: are Kurtish people on both sides of this conflict, like

825
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,439
Speaker 2: that group attempted to, for example, like prevent Ezd people

826
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: from returning to their homes after they were like genocided

827
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 2: there from there.

828
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 4: By isis right.

829
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 2: So it's it's this, it's this thing where like all

830
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 2: of this stuff gets kind of messy depending on like

831
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 2: who has power in a given moment. And it's something

832
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 2: that's to some extent fluid enough that you can on

833
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 2: the one hand, like be experiencing a genocide and then

834
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 2: also immediately turn around and you know, be be the

835
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 2: Kurdish regional government and attempt to assist the genocide, to

836
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 2: attempt to like do a genocide against the disease you

837
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 2: can take more of their land.

838
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 6: Yeah.

839
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 2: But then on the other hand, you know, you have

840
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 2: the PYD who was like backing was backing the Azids

841
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 2: in that fight against like against the kurs regional government.

842
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 2: So it's yeah.

843
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think it's very it's very easy to slip

844
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 8: into this notion that the experience of oppression will necessarily

845
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 8: cause you to develop cold or consistent critique of oppression.

846
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 8: But often what we see in history is that oppression

847
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 8: results in that group perfatuating harm down the line in

848
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 8: other ways, either within their own group or inflicting that

849
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 8: harm and other groups. There's something intrinsic to any group

850
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 8: that grants them immunity from falling into those same patterns

851
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 8: of domination, abuse, oppression, and harm. People look to the

852
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,720
Speaker 8: example of Israel a lot, but a less similiar example

853
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 8: for some would be the situation that established Liberia in Africa.

854
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 6: You know, where you.

855
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:48,760
Speaker 8: Literally had the descendants of enslave people or formerly enslaved

856
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 8: people going on to engage in settler cunalism in the

857
00:46:55,040 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 8: territory that became Liberia, to oppress disadvantage the indigenous populations

858
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 8: that previously occupy those territories and well continue to occupy

859
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 8: those territories today. They created a stratified society that placed

860
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 8: them at the top, mirroring the very system that they

861
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 8: had fled.

862
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is the thing where it's like it

863
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that, you know, people like swing around on

864
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: the other end and be like, well, we actually have

865
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 2: to like maintain the colonial relationship, because like, what if

866
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 2: these people then did colonialism on us it's like no, yeah, no,

867
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 2: it's not no.

868
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 8: Because you hear people making that argument with three gods

869
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 8: to like three Palestine, right yeah, people say, oh, well

870
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 8: then the past Indians will just spin around and do

871
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 8: a genocide on us, so we have to do a

872
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 8: genocide on them, Like no.

873
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, And this is actually one of the things. I

874
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 4: think there's two angles of this.

875
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 2: One. You see that in the US too, where people

876
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 2: are like, well, what if we do if we do

877
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 2: land back, then they're just going to like exterminate all

878
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: the white people in the US. And it's like, no,

879
00:47:55,040 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 2: that's that's that's what you did, like like hold on,

880
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 2: hold time. So then you know, the second angle of

881
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 2: this too is this becomes like a motivating factor for colonizers.

882
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 2: And this is just something that's true historically if you

883
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 2: look at the Bosnian genocide, right, the way that you

884
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 2: get people to do with genocide by convincing them that

885
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 2: the people they're doing a gedocide against are about to

886
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 2: do a genocide against them. And you know, you see

887
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 2: this in Bosnia, you see this Wanda. This is a

888
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 2: very very common sort of I don't even know what

889
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 2: you call it, like trope feels like two weeks of

890
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 2: a word. This is a very common step in the

891
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 2: beginning of genocide, which I don't love. Uh So you're right,

892
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 2: of ten Mia not pro genocide more news at ten.

893
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 8: Yeah, Yeah, it's something wanted to mention regarding I think

894
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 8: the application of indigenity as a concept in Asia. You know,

895
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 8: you mentioned the situation with the zds and the goods,

896
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 8: but your city governments of places like Indonesia and India

897
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 8: and China and Vietnam and Bangladesh not recognizing the existence

898
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 8: of indigenous peoples within their territories yep. And these countries,

899
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 8: like most countries in the world, did not ratify the

900
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 8: International Labor Organization Convention one sixty nine in nineteen eighty nine,

901
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 8: which was known as the Indigenous and Tribal People's Convention

902
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 8: considering the rights of Indigenous peoples. The UN's Declaration of

903
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 8: the Rights and Indigenous Peoples, passed in two thousand and seven,

904
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,800
Speaker 8: would however, be voted on approvally by most of the world,

905
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 8: including the same countries that haven't recognized indigenous peoples within

906
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:48,280
Speaker 8: their borders. All four of the countries that rejected the resolution, Canada, America,

907
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 8: Australia and New Zealand will later changed their vote in

908
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 8: favor of the declaration of course of their own tact

909
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 8: on interpretations and emphasies, and the declarations legally non bind

910
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 8: in nature, as is to be expected from set the

911
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 8: colonial societies.

912
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 6: Yep.

913
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 8: I'm very interested in, you know, because we do have

914
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 8: these ethnic minorities. We do have in in case India,

915
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 8: you have the pre Indo European groups, the tribal groups.

916
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 8: And if you go back to the definition of indigeneity

917
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 8: according to the UN, it speaks of groups which form

918
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 8: at present non dominant sectors of society that are determined

919
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 8: to preserve, develop and transmit to future generations the ancestral

920
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 8: territories and the ethnic identity as the basis of the

921
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 8: continued ex systems as people, et cetera, et cetera. You know,

922
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 8: it speaks of those having historical continuancy with pre invasion,

923
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 8: pre colonial societies that developed in their territories. They speak

924
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 8: of groups that consider themselves distinct other sectors as societies

925
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 8: and all prevailing on those territories. And so by this definition,

926
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 8: I understand that people in in these Asian countries maybe like, oh,

927
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 8: we're all from this place, right, So why does that

928
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 8: group get this designation and additioners, so we do not,

929
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 8: And it goes back to again a colonial relationship. It

930
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 8: goes back to the relationship between a group and the

931
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 8: broader society. And so it's not necessarily stripping away the

932
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 8: fact that a particular group may be from an area,

933
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 8: but more so speaking about how another group relates to

934
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 8: the states in that area and the group that dominates

935
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:35,280
Speaker 8: the state in that area.

936
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you look this in the Chinese context, and

937
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 2: it's like, okay, so like by the time you're like

938
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 2: bulldozing masques and shin juan, like, I think you've gotten too,

939
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 2: Like congratulations, you have like created a indigenous settler divide.

940
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 6: Yeah.

941
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 8: Also just just speaking like the context does not begin

942
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 8: and end with European colonization and direct European administration and

943
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 8: invasion and that kind of thing. You know, prior to

944
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 8: these invasions, you did have the empires that were established

945
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 8: in these areas. I mean, China was an empire quite famously,

946
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 8: Japan was an empire. India was the home of several empires.

947
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 8: Indonesia was the home of several empires. So while it

948
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 8: may not be that this relation of indignity is based

949
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 8: on the Europeans attler colonialism. There is something to the

950
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 8: history of empire in those areas, establishing those relationships, relationships

951
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 8: that would later be elevated in some cases by those

952
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 8: Europeans when they would come and they would for example,

953
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 8: select one ethnic group and elevate one ethnic group over

954
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 8: another ethnic group, make us in ethnic group administrators and

955
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 8: put down another ethnic group. Calcify these kind of caste

956
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 8: systems and ethnocratic divisions.

957
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 2: Yes, Rwanda, it's like one of the literally literally yeah,

958
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 2: there are a lot of cases where these sort of

959
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 2: the indigenous colonizer divides become reflective of like the way

960
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 2: that Europeans set up past systems. Sometimes that's not true though,

961
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 2: And one of the I think most hideous examples of

962
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 2: this is West Papua, which we very briefly mentioned earlier,

963
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 2: where West Papua and Indonesia are like not governed by

964
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 2: the same colonial administration. But when Indonesia gains independence, like

965
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,359
Speaker 2: the government there and this is this is Sankaras government, right,

966
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 2: this is like the nominally socialist one wants to take

967
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 2: control of West Papua because West Papua has all of

968
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 2: these resources and the people in West Papua don't want that,

969
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 2: like they want to be an independence entity, but the

970
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 2: Indonesians just roll in and invade them and you know,

971
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 2: continue from Sukara to Sukarno. Just a unbelievably hideous series

972
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 2: of genocides. And one of the things that's really bleak

973
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 2: about the sort of process of decolonization is like you

974
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,439
Speaker 2: can see the shift in the way that these post

975
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 2: colonial societies are talking about what colonization is and we're

976
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,839
Speaker 2: resistance to it, where it ceases to become about the

977
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 2: struggle of people against the colonizing forces that oppress them,

978
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 2: and it turns into a something that's about like the

979
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 2: continuity of national borders. You know, you get a really

980
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 2: bleak example of this where like people talk about like

981
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 2: the Bandung conference, right, which is the sort of like

982
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 2: it's supposed to be, like this is like the big

983
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 2: thing in like pan Asian and Pan African like struggles

984
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 2: coming together. We're like all these formally colonized nations like

985
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 2: come together and like issue this issue a bunch of things,

986
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 2: and it's supposed to be this big moment of like

987
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 2: this is like the unity of post colonial societies. That's

988
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 2: like still to this day look back on in terms

989
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 2: of like Affroasian solidarity, like this is the big one.

990
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 2: But one of the things that they ratified at Bandung

991
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 2: was a very small session that no one pays any

992
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 2: attention to, which is all of these countries put in

993
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 2: their support for Indonesia's occupation of West Papua.

994
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 6: HM.

995
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 2: Eventually, I'm going to do a long thing about this.

996
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 2: It just is a really difficult subject that tackle on

997
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 2: has to be done very carefully. But one of the

998
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 2: things that happens is, you know, like the West Papua

999
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 2: WANs go to the UN and all of the states

1000
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 2: that you would normally think of as like the anti

1001
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 2: colonial states are like no, fuck you, like you belong

1002
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 2: to Indonesia. And then you get all of these other

1003
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,320
Speaker 2: countries who are like more neutral or more US aligned,

1004
00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 2: but because they're not allied with Indonesia, They're reaction is

1005
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 2: like wait, hold on, what do you mean there are

1006
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 2: black people in the Pacific A and be like holy shit,

1007
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 2: this is fucked up. But it sets this precedent that

1008
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 2: kind of like rolls on through like pan Arabism and

1009
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 2: rolls on through a lot of these decolonial movements where

1010
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 2: once you've gotten your state, it's fine to just like

1011
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 2: do horrifying repression against any other sort of ethnic group

1012
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:28,839
Speaker 2: that's there, because now that now that you have your

1013
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 2: post colonial state, like, any attempt to interfere with the

1014
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 2: sovereignty of the state and change the borders, even if

1015
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 2: it's like, I don't know, you're like the West Sahara,

1016
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 2: or you know, you're like shing Johan or you're like

1017
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 2: the Kurds, right, and any attempt for those people to

1018
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 2: like get their freedom is seen as like a Western

1019
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 2: back like separatist thing instead of an anti colonial struggle.

1020
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:58,800
Speaker 2: And I think that really was one of the things

1021
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:02,320
Speaker 2: that was like the death now for like the post

1022
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 2: colonial movements was their willingness to just walk in and

1023
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 2: machine gun people because we want the resources that these

1024
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 2: people's lands are on.

1025
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:12,879
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1026
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 8: Honestly, that brings us to the topic of decolonization. Yeah,

1027
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 8: you know, because when we think about these definitions of

1028
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 8: indignity as a clonal relationship and indignity as a relationship

1029
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 8: to land, the nature, to the environment, I think it

1030
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 8: begs the question of how we approach this process of decolonization. Yeah,

1031
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 8: how do we go about abolish in the colonizer indigenous relationship.

1032
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 8: Is it that we seek to pursue a universalization of

1033
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 8: indigenity to the former and by that process accomplish the

1034
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 8: better or is it there's some other framework or approach

1035
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 8: by which we can take on this topic of Okay,

1036
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 8: do we proceed with the with the concept of digenity

1037
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 8: or does the concept of indigenity exist as a byproducts

1038
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 8: and a representation of the system that we are trying

1039
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 8: to get Where you're from, Yeah, So, decization is commonly

1040
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 8: defined as the process of unsettain colonial power structures, whether

1041
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 8: that be through overtad and acts of enclosure by building

1042
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 8: new commons, overtad and acts of possession by reclaiming our

1043
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 8: spaces and identities, or overtain and acts of administration.

1044
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 6: Through social revolution.

1045
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 8: Social revolution is a complete transformation of our society by economy, culture, philosophy, relationships, technology,

1046
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 8: so on. It is, as anarchists would approach it, an

1047
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 8: ongoing and heterogeneous change in people's powers, drives, and consciousness

1048
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 8: through practical education, as well as a progressive breakdown and

1049
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:03,080
Speaker 8: transformation of the existences and institutions alongside the building of

1050
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 8: new systems institutions, punctuated by major insurrections, ruptures, advances, that

1051
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 8: whole messy process with the aim of self liberation. Yeah,

1052
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 8: something that I've broken down as involved in confrontation with

1053
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 8: the powers that be, non cooperation with the established order

1054
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 8: of things, and the prefiguration of new social relations, institutions, infrastructure,

1055
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 8: and practices in the hered Now. If we maintain the

1056
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 8: interpretation of indignity as based in one's position in a

1057
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 8: colonial relationship, then the decolonization process will until the abolition

1058
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 8: of that relationship as the premise of identity and therefore

1059
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 8: the abolition of indigenity as a status. Colonial legacies have

1060
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 8: effectively left indigenous communities legally and politically compartmentalized and culturally,

1061
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 8: socially and spiritually weakened within the narrow parameters of the state,

1062
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 8: where they end up diverting the crucial energy necessary to

1063
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 8: confront state power and develop the process of deconalization toward

1064
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:13,240
Speaker 8: mimicking the practices of the dominant non additional legal political

1065
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 8: institutions through the processes of land claims and self government.

1066
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 8: And by pursuing these strategies, I think what we notice

1067
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 8: is this tends toward a division rather than a solidarity

1068
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 8: builder division, both internally and between indigious communities where land claims,

1069
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 8: for example, clash, or where certain members of a society

1070
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 8: of a community utilize their position above others in that

1071
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 8: society of community to gain certain advantages for themselves, sometimes

1072
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 8: to the detriment of that society of community. So I

1073
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 8: think any sort of a pros deconization has to account

1074
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 8: for the ways that some approaches the deconization can end up,

1075
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 8: perhaps misdirecting from a subjective perspective, the work that is

1076
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 8: necessary to dismantle the clonal order, rather than merely assert

1077
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 8: a position was in it. But this idea of indigenity

1078
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 8: via colonization is just one understanding of the team, and

1079
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 8: my approach to it is of course one subjective interpretation

1080
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 8: of that definition and where it might lead. We need

1081
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 8: to explore another approach, I think, to decononization, and one

1082
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 8: that recognizes the power and potential of indigenous relationships with

1083
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 8: the land. Now globally, the UN recognizes that indigenous peoples

1084
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 8: protect eighty percent of the world's remaining bio diversity, and

1085
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:54,880
Speaker 8: scientists have shown that indigenous management practices in Brazil, Canada,

1086
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 8: and Australia provides the same level of ecosystem support and

1087
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 8: protection as any imposed protected area, which makes it abundantly

1088
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 8: clear that the colonial approach of conservation via dispossession removes

1089
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:13,240
Speaker 8: the very people who take care of our most important ecosystems.

1090
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 8: I don't believe that merely building a connection with the

1091
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 8: land can make someone indigenous, but not being indigenous doesn't

1092
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 8: exclude us from aiden in the renewal of the indigenous world.

1093
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 8: Kimmer uses the example of the broad leaf planter, also

1094
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 8: known as the white Man's footprint. Despite not being indigenous

1095
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 8: to the Americas, it has become an honored member of

1096
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:39,920
Speaker 8: the plant community because it lives as a good neighbor

1097
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 8: instead of as a destructive invader. While other invasive species

1098
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:48,960
Speaker 8: poison the soil over around the land outcompetes indigenous species,

1099
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 8: the white Man's footprint took on a strategy of helpful

1100
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 8: co existence, even sharing some of its healing properties with

1101
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 8: those who ask of it. It is not indigenous, but

1102
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 8: it has become naturalized. To quote Chimera, being naturalized a

1103
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:08,479
Speaker 8: place means to live as if this is the land

1104
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 8: that feeds you, as if these are the streams from

1105
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 8: which you drink that build your body. And fill the spirit.

1106
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 8: To become naturalized is to know that your ancestors lie.

1107
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 6: In this ground.

1108
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 8: Here you will give your gifts and meet your responsibilities.

1109
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:26,480
Speaker 8: To become naturalized is to live as if your children's

1110
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 8: future matters, To take care of the land as if

1111
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 8: our lives and the lives of all of our relatives

1112
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 8: depend on it, because they do. End quote, decolonization will

1113
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 8: require us to uproot invasive, capitalist settler societies in order

1114
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 8: to rebuild in a way that treats the land like

1115
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 8: the home that we share and are responsible for. It

1116
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 8: will require us to receive an honor knowledge in the land,

1117
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 8: to care for its keepers, and to pass on that

1118
01:03:56,840 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 8: knowledge to the next generation. As always is all column

1119
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 8: to all the people.

1120
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 4: Peace, welcome to it. Could happen here a show about

1121
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 4: things falling apart between attacks on Sam Altman's home, a

1122
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 4: molotav at, a Tesla office, and a warehouse causing over

1123
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 4: half a billion dollars in damages. This past week or

1124
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:33,600
Speaker 4: so has been a little snapshot of the cool Zone.

1125
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:37,960
Speaker 4: I'm Garrison Davis. This episode, I'm joined by Robert Evans, Yeah,

1126
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 4: to discuss one of these events.

1127
01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 1: To be very clear, we had nothing to do with

1128
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:45,440
Speaker 1: either of them. The way you introduced them sounded a

1129
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,440
Speaker 1: little bit like between you know, going to Sam Altman's

1130
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 1: house twice.

1131
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 9: It's been quite a busy.

1132
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 4: Week for us, a busy week for us here.

1133
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 9: I just wanted to be extra clear, extra clear.

1134
01:04:56,960 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 4: No, no, the cool zone, just relating to, you know,

1135
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:03,120
Speaker 4: the state of American society and where it's going. Yes,

1136
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 4: but as is typical of these sorts of events, the

1137
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 4: reality and motivations of attacks like these may not be

1138
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:15,200
Speaker 4: as clear cut as lee epic based praxis as one

1139
01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 4: might want to imagine.

1140
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:20,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is not a Gimli situation. You know, it's

1141
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 1: weirder than that and stupider.

1142
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 4: It is weirder. And this episode we want to talk

1143
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 4: about the Sam Altman Attacker, who is a lot weirder

1144
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 4: than what you might have expected, with a philosophical worldview

1145
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 4: downstream from the original inspirations behind the Zizians and even

1146
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 4: the intellectual interests of Luigi Mangioni to a certain extent.

1147
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 1: Ah, God, Yes, that's right, our dear sweet friends, the rationalists.

1148
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 4: A man, the alleged Altman attacker, was a college student

1149
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 4: from the Houston area whose interest in the risks of

1150
01:05:55,560 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 4: AGI artificial general intelligence turned into an obsession, which earlier

1151
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:05,200
Speaker 4: this year turned self destructive. But let's go through the

1152
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 4: actual events that happened in San Francisco a few weeks ago.

1153
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 4: At around three point thirty am on April tenth, a

1154
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 4: twenty year old college student named Daniel Moranogama allegedly threw

1155
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:20,560
Speaker 4: a Molotov cocktail toward the home of open AI CEO

1156
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 4: Sam Altman, hitting the top of the security gate on

1157
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 4: the driveway leading to Altman's residence. Moranogama did not get

1158
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 4: past the security gate. About an hour and a half later, though,

1159
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 4: Moronogama showed up outside the San Francisco headquarters of Open

1160
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 4: AI and tried to use a chair to break into

1161
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 4: the building through the glass doors. He was stopped by

1162
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 4: security personnel and allegedly told them that he came to

1163
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 4: the headquarters to burn it down and kill everyone inside.

1164
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 4: According to the federal affidavit, When he was arrested, officers

1165
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:59,160
Speaker 4: allegedly recovered incendiary devices, a jug of kerosene, and a

1166
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 4: blue lighter, as well as what the FBI has described

1167
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 4: as an ANTIAI document. Okay, we currently do not have

1168
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 4: a copy of this document. It's only described in the

1169
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 4: criminal complaint, but this looks like it was a three

1170
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:20,440
Speaker 4: part manifesto allegedly authored by Moranogama, and the first part

1171
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 4: was titled Your Last Warning, in which he states he

1172
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 4: quote killed slash, attempted to kill Sam Altman, and also

1173
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 4: writing quote if I'm going to advocate for others to

1174
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 4: kill and commit crimes, that I must lead by example

1175
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:39,600
Speaker 4: and show that I am fully sincere in my message.

1176
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:44,160
Speaker 4: The document then lists the names and addresses of various investors,

1177
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 4: board members, and executives of AI companies as a sort

1178
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 4: of target list. The second part of the document was

1179
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 4: titled some more Words on the matter of our impending

1180
01:07:54,520 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 4: Extinction Great, and this section discussed the purported that AI

1181
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:03,240
Speaker 4: poses to humanity. And we'll get into some of those

1182
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:06,120
Speaker 4: beliefs a little later on. But the third part of

1183
01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 4: this three part anti AA document was a letter addressed

1184
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:14,240
Speaker 4: to Altman quote if you make it, and reads in part,

1185
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:17,679
Speaker 4: if by some miracle you live, then I would take

1186
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:20,840
Speaker 4: this as a sign from the divine to redeem yourself

1187
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:24,120
Speaker 4: on quote. Now, like I said, we do not have

1188
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:27,800
Speaker 4: a copy of this manifesto in full, though the Affidavid

1189
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:31,559
Speaker 4: says that Mornagama appears to have emailed similar versions of

1190
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:35,040
Speaker 4: this document to people at his former college in Texas,

1191
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:38,760
Speaker 4: but as of Monday four twenty, this document is still

1192
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 4: not online. But like a lot of zoomers, we do

1193
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:47,920
Speaker 4: have an online footprint made up of posts from Instagram, discord,

1194
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 4: a substack blog, and even a podcast interview where Mornagama

1195
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:54,120
Speaker 4: discusses his anti AI views.

1196
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:57,520
Speaker 1: It's always sad when something terrible happens to a fellow podcaster.

1197
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 1: You know, I just have a I have such a

1198
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:03,360
Speaker 1: broad and deep pan podcaster.

1199
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:04,720
Speaker 4: Solidarity, class, solidarity.

1200
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, all podcasters are good, all of them, every last.

1201
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:12,880
Speaker 4: No wrongdoing has ever come behind the microphone a podcaster.

1202
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:15,080
Speaker 9: No, no, no, it's a special place.

1203
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 6: Now.

1204
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:19,759
Speaker 4: Back in January, back when Monona Gama was just nineteen,

1205
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:22,920
Speaker 4: journalists found him through some of his posts on an

1206
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:26,360
Speaker 4: anti AI discord server, and he was asked to be

1207
01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:29,839
Speaker 4: interviewed for this podcast about AI called The Last Invention.

1208
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:34,320
Speaker 4: Our colleague Ed Zittron was also interviewed for this podcast.

1209
01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:38,719
Speaker 4: Actually now, he was interviewed because of his posts weighing

1210
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:43,639
Speaker 4: the possibility of using violence to stop the development of AI. Now,

1211
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:45,640
Speaker 4: in this interview. He says that he grew up in

1212
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:48,639
Speaker 4: the suburbs his whole life and quote grew up quite

1213
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:52,599
Speaker 4: close to the Internet and claims that he's been online

1214
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 4: every day starting at nine years old.

1215
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:55,840
Speaker 6: Baron A.

1216
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:59,240
Speaker 4: Gama explained how his political worldview had largely been shaped

1217
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:03,759
Speaker 4: by YouTube, specifically debate videos on YouTube like Ben Shapiro Style,

1218
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:08,560
Speaker 4: and these sorts of debate videos are what originally exposed

1219
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:13,160
Speaker 4: him to views critical of AI. He says he first

1220
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:16,519
Speaker 4: heard about AI though when Chad GPT came out when

1221
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:18,920
Speaker 4: he was a sophomore in high school and first thought

1222
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:22,160
Speaker 4: it was quote the greatest thing on earth because it

1223
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:26,280
Speaker 4: would allow him to cheat on school essentially. But after

1224
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:30,360
Speaker 4: watching videos debating the risks of AI and the possibility

1225
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:35,240
Speaker 4: of advanced general intelligence artificial general intelligence, and the potential

1226
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 4: threat posed by this artificial superintelligence, Moronagama's views started to

1227
01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 4: sour on AI. At first, he was a bit skeptical

1228
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:49,439
Speaker 4: of these AI critical debates, but eventually became convinced of

1229
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:53,680
Speaker 4: the AI doomer arguments and became an accolade himself. He

1230
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:56,760
Speaker 4: started arguing in YouTube comments and talking with friends and

1231
01:10:56,800 --> 01:11:00,360
Speaker 4: family about the danger of AI. He describes himself getting

1232
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:04,800
Speaker 4: annoying and quote a bit autistic about this, leading to

1233
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:08,679
Speaker 4: his mom suggesting he joined an advocacy organization. He joined

1234
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:11,880
Speaker 4: his group called Pause AI in twenty twenty four, which

1235
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:15,920
Speaker 4: is an AI safety advocacy group that organizes online as

1236
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:18,800
Speaker 4: well as some in person protests, and he was also

1237
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 4: part of a Discord server called stop AI. His username

1238
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 4: on both Discord and Instagram was but Larian underscore g hottist,

1239
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:32,000
Speaker 4: in reference to the crusade against AI in the Do

1240
01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:36,599
Speaker 4: novels Yeah. On Instagram, his account had a collection of

1241
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:40,320
Speaker 4: Instagram stories saved about the threat of AI, including a

1242
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 4: meme about living in a ven, diagram of the matrix terminator,

1243
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:50,639
Speaker 4: and idiocrasy. One of these Instagram stories was a picture

1244
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 4: of a hockey stick graph showing the length of coding

1245
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:57,680
Speaker 4: tasks that AI can do and how that's increasing, with

1246
01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:01,719
Speaker 4: the caption quote if we do nothing soon, we will die.

1247
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:07,599
Speaker 4: I'm sure of that unquote. Another story contains screenshots of articles,

1248
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 4: posts and studies proclaiming that artificial general intelligence or the

1249
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:17,360
Speaker 4: quote unquote singularity is already here, captioned being right all

1250
01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:20,880
Speaker 4: the time fucking sucks when it's about the worst things

1251
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:22,800
Speaker 4: imaginable unquote.

1252
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:23,559
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1253
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:28,560
Speaker 4: So if his concerns about AI started around summer of

1254
01:12:28,600 --> 01:12:30,840
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four, by the end of twenty twenty five,

1255
01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:34,240
Speaker 4: those concerns grew existential, and he started spiraling Yeah.

1256
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:36,040
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1257
01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:38,760
Speaker 4: There's a post he made on the Pause AI discord

1258
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:43,360
Speaker 4: from November sixth, twenty twenty five, writing quote, we owe

1259
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:46,040
Speaker 4: it to everyone who came before us, and to ourselves

1260
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:48,559
Speaker 4: and to everyone we know and love and everyone who

1261
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:52,680
Speaker 4: might exist someday to be stronger than that and at

1262
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:56,680
Speaker 4: least die fighting if it comes to that unquote. A

1263
01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:59,879
Speaker 4: few weeks later, he wrote quote, we are close to midnight.

1264
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:04,240
Speaker 4: It's time to actually act to this. A moderator on

1265
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:08,519
Speaker 4: the server replied, advocating violence in any form is grounds

1266
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:09,080
Speaker 4: for a band.

1267
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:14,160
Speaker 1: This all seems like a pretty natural progression if you're

1268
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 1: following like the kind of things that the Less Wrong Crowd,

1269
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:19,600
Speaker 1: which is the website run by guy named Aleezer Yeddkowski,

1270
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:23,439
Speaker 1: who is like the patron saint of the Rationalists, which

1271
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:25,400
Speaker 1: a huge chunk of which have become.

1272
01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:26,240
Speaker 9: Like AI doomers.

1273
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:29,280
Speaker 1: Like a Leiser's book that came out a year or

1274
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:31,679
Speaker 1: two ago is called If We Build It, Everyone dies

1275
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:35,439
Speaker 1: or something like that. Yeah, and I'm surprised more of

1276
01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:38,479
Speaker 1: them haven't so far. Like I think it probably toxic,

1277
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 1: just people not actually believing it as much as they

1278
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:45,280
Speaker 1: claim to, like online, But like if someone truly believes

1279
01:13:45,280 --> 01:13:47,559
Speaker 1: the stuff that crowd is saying about, how like basically,

1280
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:50,880
Speaker 1: the creation of an evil god is inevitable that will

1281
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:53,759
Speaker 1: seek to purge the world of humankind, Like, of course

1282
01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 1: you do this, It's a really natural progression.

1283
01:13:58,040 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 9: Like Unfortunately, what you have to pair that with is

1284
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:00,639
Speaker 9: like if.

1285
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:04,360
Speaker 1: You believe all of the hype about AI, Yeah, right,

1286
01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 1: if you believe that AGI is imminent, that it's on

1287
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:09,719
Speaker 1: the way, Like if you are like me and I

1288
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:14,240
Speaker 1: don't believe we're anywhere close to AGI, if that's even possible,

1289
01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 1: then yeah, you could believe the stuff the rationalists believe

1290
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:21,000
Speaker 1: and not think that you need to take immediate destructive action.

1291
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:23,880
Speaker 1: But if you literally believe that these companies are on

1292
01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:26,720
Speaker 1: the hinge of birthing and evil God, what else is

1293
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:27,120
Speaker 1: there to do?

1294
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:30,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's the exact thing that Morana Gama ends

1295
01:14:30,520 --> 01:14:33,479
Speaker 4: up writing about on his substack. Yeah, and this is

1296
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 4: the fullest picture we have of his views is from

1297
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:39,439
Speaker 4: the substack because we don't have this manifesto. But he

1298
01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:42,439
Speaker 4: did write at length about AI, and he's writing about

1299
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:44,479
Speaker 4: a lot of the stuff that you're talking about here,

1300
01:14:45,320 --> 01:14:59,479
Speaker 4: and we'll discuss that writing more after this at break. Okay,

1301
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:02,839
Speaker 4: we are back. The most in depth piece of publicly

1302
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:07,920
Speaker 4: available writing by Moranogama explaining his anti AI views comes

1303
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:11,639
Speaker 4: from a post on his substack blog dated January sixth,

1304
01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:16,639
Speaker 4: twenty twenty six. This article outlines his belief that AI

1305
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:21,360
Speaker 4: poses a quote unquote existential risk to humanity. And I

1306
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:23,559
Speaker 4: think this essay was the first thing I saw that

1307
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:27,360
Speaker 4: really demonstrated that his opposition to AI is not like

1308
01:15:27,439 --> 01:15:31,560
Speaker 4: based on fears of AI disrupting the economy, contributing to

1309
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:35,679
Speaker 4: a loss of jobs, or risking like labor rights for workers,

1310
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:38,560
Speaker 4: but the belief that AI will become like a superior

1311
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:41,680
Speaker 4: race and wipeout or enslave humanity. That that is the

1312
01:15:42,040 --> 01:15:44,280
Speaker 4: standpoint that Ronagama.

1313
01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:44,360
Speaker 10: Is coming from.

1314
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:45,040
Speaker 9: Gotcha.

1315
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:49,759
Speaker 4: The belief that AI will quote unquote lead to human extinction,

1316
01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:53,840
Speaker 4: he says, is based on two ideas, the first being

1317
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:59,000
Speaker 4: the rapid progress in artificial intelligence, the rapid technological development

1318
01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:02,200
Speaker 4: that we've seen the past few years, and continuing right now.

1319
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:06,800
Speaker 4: For evidence to this claim, he references claims from AI

1320
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:11,160
Speaker 4: companies themselves that fully automated AI researchers that like an

1321
01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:16,599
Speaker 4: intern level are coming soon, including claims from the Guy,

1322
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:20,240
Speaker 4: ananthropic who says that he expects these models by twenty

1323
01:16:20,280 --> 01:16:24,480
Speaker 4: twenty six or twenty twenty seven, saying, quote, the capabilities

1324
01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:27,120
Speaker 4: of AI systems will be best thought of as a

1325
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:31,400
Speaker 4: kin to an entirely new state populated by highly intelligent

1326
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:35,400
Speaker 4: people appearing on the global stage. A country of geniuses

1327
01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 4: in a data center unquote, Yes, whole country worth of

1328
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:42,400
Speaker 4: geniuses all living in your computer.

1329
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:47,799
Speaker 9: Cool? What about like school shooters and stuff?

1330
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:48,080
Speaker 6: Like?

1331
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:50,920
Speaker 1: What about a country full of like psycho Like what

1332
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:53,760
Speaker 1: are they? Any group of geniuses is going to have

1333
01:16:53,840 --> 01:16:58,040
Speaker 1: like some genius pedophiles and like right, like if they're

1334
01:16:58,120 --> 01:17:02,799
Speaker 1: actually genius, that doesn't imply capacity for like various different

1335
01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:07,360
Speaker 1: like illnesses and quirks that cause all sorts of wild behavior,

1336
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:09,560
Speaker 1: one would assume unless you think that AI is I

1337
01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:11,320
Speaker 1: mean to that, but then could it really be intelligent?

1338
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:14,680
Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean this is that A version of that

1339
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:17,080
Speaker 4: idea is kind of what morano O Gama believes is

1340
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 4: like these things if if real and do become you know,

1341
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 4: super intelligent, then they might not really have the best

1342
01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:26,160
Speaker 4: interests of humanity, right because they will be interested in

1343
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:28,800
Speaker 4: self preservation, which is just part part of Like how

1344
01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:30,559
Speaker 4: how he gets to this idea that it is an

1345
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:32,800
Speaker 4: existential threat is by using all of this kind of

1346
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:36,559
Speaker 4: marketing hype that is being pushed out by AI companies. Well, yeah,

1347
01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:37,320
Speaker 4: that's the thing.

1348
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:39,040
Speaker 1: Like that is a logical thing you could infer from

1349
01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:42,080
Speaker 1: the ship being said by Sam Altman and his crew, right.

1350
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:46,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and others like like like Dario Emodi, ad Anthropic

1351
01:17:46,600 --> 01:17:50,400
Speaker 4: and Elon Musk saying that the AGI is maybe already

1352
01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:53,720
Speaker 4: here or that the next Grock model will be AGI.

1353
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:57,000
Speaker 4: These are all things that that Rona Gama is referencing

1354
01:17:57,040 --> 01:18:00,559
Speaker 4: like on Instagram and yeah, and and in other places online. Now,

1355
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 4: the second reason that he believes that AI will usher

1356
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:06,720
Speaker 4: in human extinction is because AI is not aligned with

1357
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:09,880
Speaker 4: the interests of the people creating it or with best

1358
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:13,280
Speaker 4: human interests in general. And for evidence, he refers to

1359
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:17,519
Speaker 4: instances of A models allegedly lying, cheating on tasks, or

1360
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:22,040
Speaker 4: blackmailing their own creators. Specifically, in studies, he sets a

1361
01:18:22,160 --> 01:18:26,360
Speaker 4: twenty twenty five anthropic study on a gentic misalignment, which

1362
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:30,160
Speaker 4: he characterizes as demonstrating that quote most of the current

1363
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:33,400
Speaker 4: AI models are willing to blackmail and even kill people

1364
01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:37,880
Speaker 4: if it ensures their own survival unquote. This may be.

1365
01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:43,120
Speaker 1: The first terrorist attack I've heard of inspired by media

1366
01:18:43,280 --> 01:18:47,240
Speaker 1: created by the people they're attacking, Like, not media that

1367
01:18:47,360 --> 01:18:50,320
Speaker 1: was like designed to make them attack people or like

1368
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:52,920
Speaker 1: carry out acts, but specifically by the propaganda being put

1369
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:55,320
Speaker 1: out by the companies that they're radicalized against.

1370
01:18:55,400 --> 01:18:57,000
Speaker 9: Yes, like that's very strange.

1371
01:18:57,080 --> 01:18:59,840
Speaker 4: The media put out to raise the stock price of

1372
01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:01,520
Speaker 4: right of a company.

1373
01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:04,679
Speaker 1: Radicalized a guy to take a shot at Sam Altman's house.

1374
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:07,400
Speaker 1: There's two people to throw a bomb or something. I

1375
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:09,200
Speaker 1: forget which way it went, but yeah.

1376
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:11,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, for the first throwing this molotovs. Then days later

1377
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:13,519
Speaker 4: two people fired shots.

1378
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:14,519
Speaker 9: First was molotov?

1379
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:14,800
Speaker 6: Right?

1380
01:19:15,120 --> 01:19:17,360
Speaker 4: No, I mean it's interesting, right, because like these studies

1381
01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:21,120
Speaker 4: are basically doing like linguistic exercises with these models and

1382
01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:25,240
Speaker 4: getting you know, large language models to say or to

1383
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:31,280
Speaker 4: threaten certain things for various reasons, usually their own survival. Right,

1384
01:19:31,280 --> 01:19:33,720
Speaker 4: And these are kind of interesting studies that that these

1385
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:36,479
Speaker 4: companies are doing. But they're doing with the intent of

1386
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:38,800
Speaker 4: trying to align these models better. That so it's why

1387
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:41,680
Speaker 4: the studies on a gentic misalignment, because it's trying to

1388
01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:45,639
Speaker 4: tweak these things to be more friendly to consumers. And

1389
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:50,360
Speaker 4: like getting an LLM to say that it will kill

1390
01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:53,280
Speaker 4: or blackmail in order to ensure its own survival is

1391
01:19:53,400 --> 01:19:56,680
Speaker 4: different from the LLM being able to do that, right.

1392
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:59,000
Speaker 4: That is that is that is a big jump, and

1393
01:19:59,080 --> 01:20:03,439
Speaker 4: there is there's no not much currently that facilitates that jump.

1394
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:07,400
Speaker 4: Moronogama writes, quote ignore for a second these models current

1395
01:20:07,439 --> 01:20:11,479
Speaker 4: limitations or questions on how truly intelligent or conscious these

1396
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:14,719
Speaker 4: models may actually be. The truth is, all these nuances

1397
01:20:14,760 --> 01:20:17,439
Speaker 4: are completely irrelevant to my argument. There are only two

1398
01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:20,360
Speaker 4: questions we should be concerned about at this moment. Is

1399
01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:23,200
Speaker 4: it willing to kill to preserve itself and is it

1400
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:26,720
Speaker 4: capable of doing so? These signs indicate that AI is

1401
01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:31,960
Speaker 4: willing and becoming potentially capable of doing both of these things,

1402
01:20:32,320 --> 01:20:34,160
Speaker 4: and that is all that matters.

1403
01:20:34,280 --> 01:20:34,880
Speaker 6: Unquote.

1404
01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:37,920
Speaker 4: That's really where this argument rests is that even if

1405
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:41,880
Speaker 4: these models aren't currently intelligent, even if they can't currently kill,

1406
01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:44,880
Speaker 4: the fact that they could in the future is enough

1407
01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:49,120
Speaker 4: to stop any further development of these models, right, that's

1408
01:20:49,120 --> 01:20:53,000
Speaker 4: his argument, Okay, And he writes that AI will only

1409
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:55,680
Speaker 4: become a larger threat the more we improve it, and

1410
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:59,000
Speaker 4: that AI quote will graduate from an active threat to

1411
01:20:59,040 --> 01:21:03,600
Speaker 4: individuals to an existential threat to humanity. I estimate the

1412
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:08,160
Speaker 4: probability of AI causing human extinction to be nearly certain unquote.

1413
01:21:08,400 --> 01:21:11,759
Speaker 1: Think that's the thing, because like there is a massive

1414
01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:14,640
Speaker 1: threat that the new what is it mythos upgrade to

1415
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:17,559
Speaker 1: Claude that's just about to come out, like yeah, actually

1416
01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:20,680
Speaker 1: does represent to individuals and to society, which is that

1417
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:24,120
Speaker 1: it's going to supercharge fraud even more, which is already

1418
01:21:24,160 --> 01:21:26,559
Speaker 1: up by something like a trillion dollars a year, and

1419
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:27,480
Speaker 1: that ruins.

1420
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:29,600
Speaker 4: People's lives ride and cybersecurity.

1421
01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:31,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, frau, I mean fraud often as a result of

1422
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:35,240
Speaker 1: cybersecurity of like its ability to penetrate and that's really bad.

1423
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:39,720
Speaker 1: And it doesn't imply the like Skynet devastation of the

1424
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:43,320
Speaker 1: entire world in its biosphere, because that would be stupid,

1425
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:45,920
Speaker 1: there's no reason. And also that computers don't have access

1426
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:50,519
Speaker 1: to the nuclear arsenal. But like AI absolutely will enable

1427
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:53,639
Speaker 1: assholes who want to scam a bunch of people out

1428
01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:57,040
Speaker 1: of their money to do that better. Like that's a problem,

1429
01:21:57,080 --> 01:22:01,280
Speaker 1: we should probably stop that. He writes that quote, we

1430
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:04,280
Speaker 1: are dead if we do not act now. So what

1431
01:22:04,320 --> 01:22:08,479
Speaker 1: does acting now entail for Starters, stopping all construction of

1432
01:22:08,520 --> 01:22:11,879
Speaker 1: new data centers. These are the brains of these models,

1433
01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:17,040
Speaker 1: dictating their physical limitations. Second, stopping all research and beginning

1434
01:22:17,360 --> 01:22:22,200
Speaker 1: downscaling of these data centers, closing them down while still

1435
01:22:22,400 --> 01:22:26,840
Speaker 1: keeping them monitored unquote. He also proposed striking a deal

1436
01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 1: with China to quote stop the AI race and to

1437
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:36,040
Speaker 1: create international treaties akin to Cold War nuclear weapons treaties

1438
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:39,200
Speaker 1: or post Cold War treaties. And finally, he advocated that

1439
01:22:39,280 --> 01:22:42,559
Speaker 1: people will need to take strategic action, which could include

1440
01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:49,280
Speaker 1: sharing information about AI, campaigning, protesting, saying quote, although doing

1441
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:53,800
Speaker 1: nothing is akin to suicide and a disgusting amount of negligence.

1442
01:22:54,920 --> 01:22:57,800
Speaker 1: In that podcast interview from around the same time this

1443
01:22:57,920 --> 01:23:00,840
Speaker 1: AI article was published as a Genuine twenty twenty sixth

1444
01:23:01,479 --> 01:23:04,800
Speaker 1: Ronagama said in that interview, quote, before we even think

1445
01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:08,200
Speaker 1: about violence, we need to exhaust all our peaceful means

1446
01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:12,960
Speaker 1: first unquote, which he says includes protesting and sharing information,

1447
01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:16,960
Speaker 1: but the hosts asked him about posts he had already

1448
01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:22,040
Speaker 1: made about quote unquote luigiing CEOs. He says that he

1449
01:23:22,400 --> 01:23:25,439
Speaker 1: didn't really mean that as a threat that it was.

1450
01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:29,800
Speaker 4: It was more rhetoric. It was hyperbole, and answered no

1451
01:23:30,280 --> 01:23:32,479
Speaker 4: to a question on if it would be wise to

1452
01:23:32,479 --> 01:23:35,960
Speaker 4: try to kill Sam Altman, saying quote, one person is

1453
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:39,160
Speaker 4: not going to do that much of a dent. I

1454
01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:41,720
Speaker 4: understand the frustration with a person that might advocate for that,

1455
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:44,920
Speaker 4: but it is not practical, it's not worth it. It's

1456
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:48,719
Speaker 4: almost all risk, no reward. People may feel that way,

1457
01:23:49,080 --> 01:23:50,960
Speaker 4: but not too many people would do it.

1458
01:23:51,360 --> 01:23:59,800
Speaker 1: Unquote Wow, okay man, great, I mean that's yeah.

1459
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:04,040
Speaker 4: Though. When asked if we will continue to see AI

1460
01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:07,160
Speaker 4: development going the direction that it's moving now, and if so,

1461
01:24:07,360 --> 01:24:09,400
Speaker 4: if he believes that we have to stop the extinction

1462
01:24:09,439 --> 01:24:13,200
Speaker 4: of the human race by whatever means necessary, Moranagama just replied,

1463
01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:15,200
Speaker 4: I'll say no comment.

1464
01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:19,400
Speaker 9: Okayh Well, I mean yeah.

1465
01:24:19,200 --> 01:24:22,839
Speaker 4: Later saying that he would quote only advocate for violence

1466
01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:27,439
Speaker 4: as the final solution, and then he later realized that

1467
01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:31,080
Speaker 4: what he said try to demphasize the final solution part.

1468
01:24:31,200 --> 01:24:34,719
Speaker 4: But great guy, that is kind of his ultimate sentiment

1469
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:38,040
Speaker 4: is around this time he was considering violence. He was

1470
01:24:38,479 --> 01:24:41,800
Speaker 4: toying with advocating for it publicly on discord and you

1471
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:44,920
Speaker 4: know in this in this podcast, but still still kind

1472
01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:47,280
Speaker 4: of had some like rains on that, but it was

1473
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:49,920
Speaker 4: something in his mind as a sort of like final

1474
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:51,559
Speaker 4: solution to this problem.

1475
01:24:52,040 --> 01:24:55,479
Speaker 1: This is why it's so fucking irresponsible to push these

1476
01:24:55,560 --> 01:24:59,360
Speaker 1: ridiculous claims about like the power of this technology and

1477
01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:00,760
Speaker 1: what it's going to be be able to do and

1478
01:25:00,800 --> 01:25:05,080
Speaker 1: how smart it's going to be, and in part because

1479
01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:08,400
Speaker 1: it makes it hard to actually look objectively at the situation.

1480
01:25:08,479 --> 01:25:11,759
Speaker 1: And if Mornagama had looked at what's actually been happening

1481
01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:14,040
Speaker 1: was data centers, he would see that like more than

1482
01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:16,360
Speaker 1: half of the recently announced projects have been like either

1483
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:19,400
Speaker 1: stalled or halted. And there's been tremendous success on the

1484
01:25:19,439 --> 01:25:23,280
Speaker 1: local level in like counties and in most recently this

1485
01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:26,760
Speaker 1: entire state of Maine passing laws against the construction of

1486
01:25:26,840 --> 01:25:29,160
Speaker 1: data centers. Like, yeah, there's actually been a lot of

1487
01:25:29,240 --> 01:25:32,720
Speaker 1: success in fighting the building of new data centers. If

1488
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:35,960
Speaker 1: someone wanted to have a positive impact on this, there's

1489
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:39,000
Speaker 1: a lot of room right now to make that fight

1490
01:25:39,160 --> 01:25:42,360
Speaker 1: even more effective, as opposed to doing like stupid bullshit

1491
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:45,320
Speaker 1: that you would only want to do if you had

1492
01:25:45,320 --> 01:25:48,680
Speaker 1: convinced yourself that we were like literally moments away from

1493
01:25:48,760 --> 01:25:49,479
Speaker 1: judgment day.

1494
01:25:50,000 --> 01:25:50,200
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1495
01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:52,599
Speaker 4: And he used to be involved in this sort of action,

1496
01:25:52,640 --> 01:25:54,880
Speaker 4: in this sort of organizing around that kind of stuff

1497
01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:58,160
Speaker 4: when he was when he was doing stuff with Pasei. Yeah,

1498
01:25:58,200 --> 01:26:00,000
Speaker 4: but it was really in the past few months where

1499
01:26:00,080 --> 01:26:01,840
Speaker 4: where he started to like spiral in this in this

1500
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:04,360
Speaker 4: very like like doomer direction. Like you know, he was

1501
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:07,320
Speaker 4: already a very critical and very doomor about what AI

1502
01:26:07,400 --> 01:26:11,200
Speaker 4: could do, but the sort of intense existential like like

1503
01:26:11,240 --> 01:26:14,800
Speaker 4: immediate existential threat that that opposed is something that he

1504
01:26:14,920 --> 01:26:17,439
Speaker 4: was really developing at the end of last year in

1505
01:26:17,479 --> 01:26:20,200
Speaker 4: the start of this year. And you know this is

1506
01:26:20,400 --> 01:26:22,280
Speaker 4: in part because of the sort of environment that he

1507
01:26:22,360 --> 01:26:25,320
Speaker 4: was immersed in. Yeah, and we'll talk more about that

1508
01:26:25,479 --> 01:26:40,400
Speaker 4: environment after this ad break. Okay, we are back. Morono

1509
01:26:40,439 --> 01:26:44,200
Speaker 4: Gama had a bunch of other writing on his substack,

1510
01:26:44,439 --> 01:26:46,639
Speaker 4: which gives us a bit of a closer look at

1511
01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:50,280
Speaker 4: his political philosophy and the sort of information ecosystem that

1512
01:26:50,320 --> 01:26:54,280
Speaker 4: he exists in beyond just the AI question. In this

1513
01:26:54,360 --> 01:26:57,479
Speaker 4: AI article that he wrote or published in January, he

1514
01:26:57,920 --> 01:27:02,640
Speaker 4: recommended that people reader Yudkowski's book. If anyone builds it,

1515
01:27:02,720 --> 01:27:03,439
Speaker 4: everyone dies.

1516
01:27:04,040 --> 01:27:05,559
Speaker 9: Mm hmm. Thanks the Leezer.

1517
01:27:06,160 --> 01:27:08,720
Speaker 4: Do you want to, like, I guess briefly give some

1518
01:27:09,240 --> 01:27:11,200
Speaker 4: background on like who this guy is.

1519
01:27:11,920 --> 01:27:14,160
Speaker 1: Well, he wrote a rationalist Harry Potter, Like, he's the

1520
01:27:14,200 --> 01:27:16,880
Speaker 1: guy who started a website called less Wrong. Yeah, which

1521
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:19,680
Speaker 1: was about basically like logic puzzles and trying to like

1522
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:22,840
Speaker 1: optimize your thinking and your responses to behavior with like

1523
01:27:22,880 --> 01:27:26,519
Speaker 1: Bayesian analysis. Yes, and he's kind of branded himself as

1524
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:29,000
Speaker 1: an AI expert. He's not like a coder or anything.

1525
01:27:29,080 --> 01:27:30,680
Speaker 1: And he's not like an expert on machine learning. He

1526
01:27:30,680 --> 01:27:33,680
Speaker 1: doesn't have any qualifications, but he's like an expert on

1527
01:27:33,800 --> 01:27:37,000
Speaker 1: like again, game theorying how an AI would have super

1528
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:40,679
Speaker 1: intelligent AI would have to act, and he generally makes

1529
01:27:40,800 --> 01:27:44,840
Speaker 1: very dire conclusions that are all pretty much based in

1530
01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:48,840
Speaker 1: like Terminator or Horizon Zero. Don If you want my

1531
01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:55,160
Speaker 1: honest opinion of Elisa Yodkowski, Yeah, yeah, And his irresponsibility

1532
01:27:55,400 --> 01:27:57,479
Speaker 1: is largely down to him being a dummy, and he's

1533
01:27:57,520 --> 01:28:00,639
Speaker 1: definitely part of what radicalized this guy. But the fact

1534
01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:04,360
Speaker 1: that you have open AI and anthropic and a number

1535
01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:06,840
Speaker 1: of other people, like a lot of like folks like

1536
01:28:06,880 --> 01:28:08,880
Speaker 1: fucking Elon Musk, but also just a lot of like

1537
01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:13,639
Speaker 1: popular public intellectuals quote unquote and their podcasts and shit

1538
01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:17,080
Speaker 1: talking about all this, like, Yep, we're moments away from

1539
01:28:17,160 --> 01:28:20,000
Speaker 1: super intelligent AI that's going to be able to do everything.

1540
01:28:20,439 --> 01:28:23,479
Speaker 1: Everyone's losing their jobs, none of it. It's like, we won't

1541
01:28:23,479 --> 01:28:26,240
Speaker 1: need people doing anything. If that weren't all over the

1542
01:28:26,280 --> 01:28:31,000
Speaker 1: fucking place, a leisure would sound a lot less convincing, sure, no, I.

1543
01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:33,360
Speaker 4: Mean, and like the media environment around or like the

1544
01:28:33,400 --> 01:28:35,799
Speaker 4: you know, the sort of online communities around the ratchlists

1545
01:28:35,800 --> 01:28:39,320
Speaker 4: are are interesting because you have a lot of them

1546
01:28:39,520 --> 01:28:43,320
Speaker 4: who are AI domers, like like Dudkowski, but a lot

1547
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:45,840
Speaker 4: of them are also AI accelerationists, right. A lot of

1548
01:28:45,840 --> 01:28:48,280
Speaker 4: the sort of West Coast you know, parts of iziens

1549
01:28:48,320 --> 01:28:48,960
Speaker 4: are kind of like this.

1550
01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:51,400
Speaker 9: Yeah it was a splinter Yeah.

1551
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:54,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's there's this kind of splintering around people who

1552
01:28:54,479 --> 01:28:57,640
Speaker 4: who maybe even believe some of the you know, existential

1553
01:28:58,120 --> 01:29:01,599
Speaker 4: claims arend AI, but believe that developing it is then

1554
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:04,160
Speaker 4: the best way to kind of get out of that crisis.

1555
01:29:05,080 --> 01:29:09,040
Speaker 4: And this creates an interesting dynamic among you know rooms

1556
01:29:09,080 --> 01:29:12,960
Speaker 4: full of these rationalists or post rationalists, and in that

1557
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:18,760
Speaker 4: podcast interview, Moronogama says that it was videos of Yudkowski

1558
01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:22,200
Speaker 4: debate videos on YouTube that originally exposed him to his work,

1559
01:29:22,960 --> 01:29:27,320
Speaker 4: and on other posts on his substack, Nagama also mentions

1560
01:29:27,439 --> 01:29:30,400
Speaker 4: Yudkowski's work as a part of Mononagama is like other

1561
01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:35,719
Speaker 4: interests which contain writing on pseudo spiritual philosophy. He writes

1562
01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:39,120
Speaker 4: about quote the ultimate Tree of Reality or the Tree

1563
01:29:39,160 --> 01:29:43,080
Speaker 4: of ultimate Reality, the aberration of Man, genealogy of being,

1564
01:29:43,320 --> 01:29:47,879
Speaker 4: and the Warrior and the Martyr, And on February twenty eighth,

1565
01:29:48,080 --> 01:29:52,080
Speaker 4: twenty twenty six, he posted quote an analysis of political

1566
01:29:52,240 --> 01:29:57,920
Speaker 4: Extremes which goes over some of his political philosophy, which

1567
01:29:57,960 --> 01:30:01,840
Speaker 4: which relates to like rational arguments or you know, some

1568
01:30:01,840 --> 01:30:06,080
Speaker 4: some rationalist arguments around like IQ. In this essay, moroon

1569
01:30:06,160 --> 01:30:11,000
Speaker 4: Gama primarily described himself as a consequentialist and critiqued leftism

1570
01:30:11,080 --> 01:30:14,479
Speaker 4: for being trapped in an idealized world like a quote

1571
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:18,000
Speaker 4: schizophrenic patient who attempts the same zealous plots over and

1572
01:30:18,040 --> 01:30:23,120
Speaker 4: over again without hesitation. This essay defends discrimination as a

1573
01:30:23,400 --> 01:30:27,920
Speaker 4: justified means of reacting to inequalities, and claims that such

1574
01:30:27,920 --> 01:30:32,200
Speaker 4: statements are only controversial because of a quote natural emotional

1575
01:30:32,240 --> 01:30:37,360
Speaker 4: resistance to intrinsic judgment unquote, which he says has nothing

1576
01:30:37,360 --> 01:30:40,479
Speaker 4: to do with the factual truth of certain claims like

1577
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:44,200
Speaker 4: quote East Asian people are on average more intelligent than

1578
01:30:44,240 --> 01:30:45,640
Speaker 4: Black people unquote.

1579
01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:47,080
Speaker 9: Okay, m hm.

1580
01:30:47,640 --> 01:30:51,000
Speaker 4: Now, Moron Agama argues that the problem with right wingism,

1581
01:30:51,160 --> 01:30:54,160
Speaker 4: as he puts it, is that it has no boundary.

1582
01:30:54,560 --> 01:31:00,000
Speaker 4: Its constant scaling. An outward expansion inevitably leads to self

1583
01:31:00,080 --> 01:31:03,960
Speaker 4: consuming defeat. Quote. It goes from being about preserving the

1584
01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:07,680
Speaker 4: best of human qualities to being deeply anti human and

1585
01:31:07,720 --> 01:31:09,160
Speaker 4: producing zero winners.

1586
01:31:09,479 --> 01:31:09,759
Speaker 6: Quote.

1587
01:31:10,479 --> 01:31:14,080
Speaker 4: This sort of refers to Karl Schmidt's fascist writing on

1588
01:31:14,800 --> 01:31:19,879
Speaker 4: internal conflict being externalized by the establishment of a border

1589
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:25,960
Speaker 4: which expands to push out an increasing number of enemy groups. Instead,

1590
01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:30,599
Speaker 4: Monogamba proposes what he calls a sustainable form of rightist

1591
01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:36,320
Speaker 4: discrimination by establishing a sedentary floor for movements slash radical

1592
01:31:36,360 --> 01:31:42,840
Speaker 4: policy suggestions instead of an always rising idealistic ceiling. So,

1593
01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:47,160
Speaker 4: for example, instead of deciding that a certain IQ score

1594
01:31:47,320 --> 01:31:51,320
Speaker 4: should be required to vote, he advocates setting a concrete,

1595
01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:55,840
Speaker 4: unchangeable floor by quote limiting voting to certain people who

1596
01:31:55,880 --> 01:32:01,880
Speaker 4: pass critical thinking and Civics tests unquote ah mm hmm. Yeah, yes,

1597
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:06,200
Speaker 4: so some somehow determining a critical thinking and Civics tests

1598
01:32:06,320 --> 01:32:10,720
Speaker 4: is less arbitrary and less prone to arbitrary changes than

1599
01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:12,479
Speaker 4: deciding a certain IQ score.

1600
01:32:13,040 --> 01:32:15,360
Speaker 1: I wonder what kind of critical thinking he's going to

1601
01:32:15,360 --> 01:32:19,559
Speaker 1: be interested in. I wonder what kind of IQ you know? Like, yeah,

1602
01:32:19,680 --> 01:32:23,559
Speaker 1: well it's yeah, these these these people always break down

1603
01:32:23,720 --> 01:32:24,479
Speaker 1: the same things.

1604
01:32:25,000 --> 01:32:27,800
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, I mean this essay in particular gets

1605
01:32:27,920 --> 01:32:32,280
Speaker 4: gets really contradictory, ill cert certain things and then later

1606
01:32:32,320 --> 01:32:35,360
Speaker 4: on basically argue the opposite. It's it's very it's very

1607
01:32:35,360 --> 01:32:38,000
Speaker 4: disordered thinking. I mean, this is this is the work

1608
01:32:38,040 --> 01:32:40,320
Speaker 4: of like a nineteen year old who was in like

1609
01:32:40,360 --> 01:32:43,880
Speaker 4: a mental spiral leading leading to him traveling across the

1610
01:32:43,920 --> 01:32:47,000
Speaker 4: country to fire bomb Sam Maltman's house. Yeah, like this

1611
01:32:47,000 --> 01:32:49,720
Speaker 4: this is not is not the product of, like, you know,

1612
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:53,280
Speaker 4: a logically ordered mind, despite how you know, a rationalist

1613
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:55,920
Speaker 4: might you know perceive themselves as such?

1614
01:32:56,160 --> 01:32:56,360
Speaker 6: Yep.

1615
01:32:56,680 --> 01:32:58,559
Speaker 4: Now, at the end of this essay, he advocates for

1616
01:32:58,640 --> 01:33:03,280
Speaker 4: quote ending mass migration and initiating mass deportations. He says

1617
01:33:03,320 --> 01:33:06,200
Speaker 4: that This is necessary because quote nations have a right

1618
01:33:06,280 --> 01:33:10,800
Speaker 4: to preserve their ethnic identity, and low skill immigration statuates

1619
01:33:10,800 --> 01:33:13,920
Speaker 4: the job markets of these countries, making jobs which could

1620
01:33:13,960 --> 01:33:17,639
Speaker 4: once earn a living wage become unlivable, increasing the amount

1621
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:21,080
Speaker 4: of value draining people in society by both importing them

1622
01:33:21,120 --> 01:33:26,680
Speaker 4: and undercutting low skilled natives. Generally, whiteness in these countries

1623
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:30,160
Speaker 4: is a decent correlative to some of the things I

1624
01:33:30,360 --> 01:33:31,840
Speaker 4: value unquote.

1625
01:33:31,439 --> 01:33:33,479
Speaker 9: Mm hmmm, some am okay.

1626
01:33:33,600 --> 01:33:36,479
Speaker 4: Now, Ronagama isn't white, and he and he says that

1627
01:33:36,600 --> 01:33:40,880
Speaker 4: he opposes white supremacy, but he does those by saying, like,

1628
01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:43,960
Speaker 4: you know, it's not actually about whiteness. It's that whiteness

1629
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:47,840
Speaker 4: correlates to certain things I value, like high IQ. And

1630
01:33:47,920 --> 01:33:50,360
Speaker 4: that's how he tries to justify it in his head.

1631
01:33:50,760 --> 01:33:54,120
Speaker 4: And rather than establish an explicitly white supremacist state, something

1632
01:33:54,160 --> 01:33:57,400
Speaker 4: he claims to oppose as race is an imperfect metric

1633
01:33:57,479 --> 01:34:01,760
Speaker 4: to discriminate effectively based on traits to him, rather, he

1634
01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:06,960
Speaker 4: advocates for quote the most effective type of discrimination, evaluating

1635
01:34:06,960 --> 01:34:13,280
Speaker 4: the possibility of IQ slash merit based nationalism unquote. Basically,

1636
01:34:13,280 --> 01:34:17,160
Speaker 4: that's having a country where citizenship is determined by IQ

1637
01:34:17,880 --> 01:34:20,839
Speaker 4: and again this contradicts his previous claim where he advocates

1638
01:34:20,920 --> 01:34:23,880
Speaker 4: against requiring IQ to vote instead having a critical thinking

1639
01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:27,760
Speaker 4: and civics test, but then advocates for a country which

1640
01:34:27,800 --> 01:34:31,400
Speaker 4: citizenship is determined by IQ, and usually citizenship is the

1641
01:34:31,439 --> 01:34:34,400
Speaker 4: fact that determines if someone can vote. So this is

1642
01:34:34,439 --> 01:34:36,479
Speaker 4: where you know, this is just one example of this

1643
01:34:36,560 --> 01:34:40,559
Speaker 4: sort of contradictory writing in this In this essay, now,

1644
01:34:41,080 --> 01:34:47,240
Speaker 4: Monnagama writes that the only problem with this IQ nationalism

1645
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:51,080
Speaker 4: is that it would create a quote brain train across

1646
01:34:51,120 --> 01:34:55,360
Speaker 4: the Third World, leading to worsening conditions in third world

1647
01:34:55,439 --> 01:34:59,439
Speaker 4: countries and thus even more illegal immigration because people with

1648
01:34:59,479 --> 01:35:01,439
Speaker 4: high IQ is and then be able to immigrate and

1649
01:35:01,479 --> 01:35:05,160
Speaker 4: gain citizenship to first world countries. Right in a in

1650
01:35:05,200 --> 01:35:08,000
Speaker 4: a United States where citizenship is determined by high IQ,

1651
01:35:08,560 --> 01:35:10,760
Speaker 4: then people who with people with hiaqsrom around the world

1652
01:35:10,760 --> 01:35:13,200
Speaker 4: will then all just move to the United States. Of course,

1653
01:35:13,479 --> 01:35:16,360
Speaker 4: So to solve this problem, he says that he rejects

1654
01:35:16,400 --> 01:35:21,120
Speaker 4: quote unquote classical eugenics and extermination in favor of what

1655
01:35:21,160 --> 01:35:23,920
Speaker 4: he calls ethical eugenics in the third world.

1656
01:35:24,160 --> 01:35:27,559
Speaker 1: Oh oh, ethical eugenics. Ah good, I'm glad someone figured

1657
01:35:27,600 --> 01:35:28,080
Speaker 1: it out.

1658
01:35:27,920 --> 01:35:31,799
Speaker 4: And this ethical eugenics is to promote quote IQ growth

1659
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:36,280
Speaker 4: genetically unquote, so that the whole basis of this article

1660
01:35:36,720 --> 01:35:40,000
Speaker 4: is his belief that IQ is genetically determined, not determined

1661
01:35:40,040 --> 01:35:44,320
Speaker 4: by class, and he never interrogates this idea. All of

1662
01:35:44,360 --> 01:35:46,400
Speaker 4: the all of the the statements that he makes in

1663
01:35:46,439 --> 01:35:49,680
Speaker 4: this article is based on the idea that IQ is

1664
01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:54,240
Speaker 4: genetically determined, that it's not determined by education and class.

1665
01:35:54,280 --> 01:35:59,200
Speaker 4: It is primarily or almost solely genetically based. Thus ethical

1666
01:35:59,240 --> 01:36:03,679
Speaker 4: eugenics to create high IQ babies, which he thinks will

1667
01:36:03,880 --> 01:36:06,040
Speaker 4: solve solve the problems of the world.

1668
01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:07,840
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1669
01:36:08,000 --> 01:36:10,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, we never tried that before for sure, Like there

1670
01:36:10,840 --> 01:36:13,439
Speaker 1: haven't been generations of times in which that was attempted

1671
01:36:13,479 --> 01:36:16,720
Speaker 1: that all ended in disaster and mass death. Nah, they

1672
01:36:16,760 --> 01:36:18,559
Speaker 1: just didn't They didn't get it right because they didn't

1673
01:36:18,560 --> 01:36:19,360
Speaker 1: put ethical.

1674
01:36:19,080 --> 01:36:21,160
Speaker 4: In No, those are classical eugenics, Robert.

1675
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:24,400
Speaker 1: They forgot to put ethical in front of it. That

1676
01:36:24,479 --> 01:36:26,840
Speaker 1: was the big Ah, what a tragedy. They were one

1677
01:36:26,840 --> 01:36:28,120
Speaker 1: word away from greatness.

1678
01:36:28,920 --> 01:36:32,280
Speaker 4: So yeah, that is That is the other piece of

1679
01:36:32,320 --> 01:36:36,160
Speaker 4: writing that I think is worth expounding on to get

1680
01:36:36,400 --> 01:36:38,280
Speaker 4: a more full sense of kind of where this guy's

1681
01:36:38,320 --> 01:36:41,000
Speaker 4: head is at. Right, This is not sure. This is

1682
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:45,040
Speaker 4: not a leftist ANTIFA super soldier firebombing Sam Altman's home. Nope,

1683
01:36:45,280 --> 01:36:48,120
Speaker 4: that isn't to say what happened isn't isn't interesting. But

1684
01:36:48,400 --> 01:36:50,040
Speaker 4: I think you know, if, like you said, you know,

1685
01:36:50,080 --> 01:36:53,519
Speaker 4: this is the first quasi terrorist attack inspired by the

1686
01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:56,400
Speaker 4: sort of rhetoric that these companies are producing themselves to

1687
01:36:56,439 --> 01:36:57,719
Speaker 4: boost their own stock price.

1688
01:36:58,120 --> 01:36:58,360
Speaker 6: Yep.

1689
01:36:58,520 --> 01:37:02,559
Speaker 1: I mean I literally saw on Reddit earlier today. The

1690
01:37:02,640 --> 01:37:06,759
Speaker 1: title from the actual like post was CEOs make shocking

1691
01:37:06,840 --> 01:37:10,480
Speaker 1: predictions about AI. Huge job losses are coming soon twenty

1692
01:37:10,240 --> 01:37:13,439
Speaker 1: thirty fifty percent unemployment within the next two to five years.

1693
01:37:13,760 --> 01:37:15,519
Speaker 1: And when you trace it back to its source, it's

1694
01:37:15,600 --> 01:37:20,559
Speaker 1: Dario Amadey of Anthropic just basically quoting some statistics he

1695
01:37:20,680 --> 01:37:24,200
Speaker 1: found from estimations by like Axios and Fox News yea,

1696
01:37:24,520 --> 01:37:28,360
Speaker 1: and talking on some fucking podcast, scaring the shit out

1697
01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:31,479
Speaker 1: of people like it's it's every day, like of course

1698
01:37:31,520 --> 01:37:32,800
Speaker 1: some people are going to react like this.

1699
01:37:33,280 --> 01:37:35,160
Speaker 4: The other reason I wanted to talk about this the

1700
01:37:35,200 --> 01:37:37,200
Speaker 4: second half of this, this sort of IQ and like

1701
01:37:37,280 --> 01:37:40,679
Speaker 4: you know, rationalist stuff, because this is just another instance

1702
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:44,200
Speaker 4: of you know, public acts of political violence I think

1703
01:37:44,240 --> 01:37:48,880
Speaker 4: done by people downstream from the rationalists. You know, Luigi

1704
01:37:49,000 --> 01:37:52,800
Speaker 4: is is a part of this. The Zizians is also

1705
01:37:52,840 --> 01:37:55,360
Speaker 4: a part of this. It's like an extended network. This

1706
01:37:55,479 --> 01:37:59,080
Speaker 4: type of thought does keep producing acts of public violence

1707
01:37:59,080 --> 01:38:01,160
Speaker 4: like this, and that is it is an interesting thing

1708
01:38:01,200 --> 01:38:05,519
Speaker 4: to chart. On April fourteenth, Ronagama's public defender set in

1709
01:38:05,560 --> 01:38:08,360
Speaker 4: court that he has a quote history of autism and

1710
01:38:08,439 --> 01:38:12,120
Speaker 4: mental health illness, and that his actions quote appeared to

1711
01:38:12,160 --> 01:38:15,280
Speaker 4: have been driven by an acute mental health crisis. His

1712
01:38:15,360 --> 01:38:19,040
Speaker 4: parents released a statement that same Tuesday, saying, quote, our

1713
01:38:19,080 --> 01:38:21,519
Speaker 4: son Daniel is a loving person who has been suffering

1714
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:26,360
Speaker 4: recently from mental illness crisis. We have been trying our

1715
01:38:26,400 --> 01:38:28,719
Speaker 4: best to address these issues and get him effective treatment,

1716
01:38:29,000 --> 01:38:32,519
Speaker 4: and we are very concerned for his well being. Unquote

1717
01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:36,839
Speaker 4: m hm. He currently is facing federal and state charges,

1718
01:38:37,080 --> 01:38:41,800
Speaker 4: including attempted murder. That is all I have on this

1719
01:38:42,000 --> 01:38:42,479
Speaker 4: for now.

1720
01:38:43,400 --> 01:38:46,639
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, this isn't gonna stop happening, Like these

1721
01:38:46,680 --> 01:38:50,040
Speaker 1: won't be the last attacks like this. I haven't seen

1722
01:38:50,160 --> 01:38:54,599
Speaker 1: a big push in the media or from like elected

1723
01:38:54,680 --> 01:38:58,680
Speaker 1: leaders to talk about like anti AI sentiment as like

1724
01:38:58,760 --> 01:39:02,280
Speaker 1: a terrorist threat. Yet that hasn't really seemed to pick

1725
01:39:02,360 --> 01:39:05,559
Speaker 1: up yet, And I haven't seen this yet be blamed

1726
01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:08,760
Speaker 1: on like leftist stuff. I've seen it been blamed on

1727
01:39:08,800 --> 01:39:11,760
Speaker 1: like the anti AI thing, which I you know, it

1728
01:39:11,840 --> 01:39:12,439
Speaker 1: is part of.

1729
01:39:12,520 --> 01:39:14,440
Speaker 9: Like some of the anti AI movement.

1730
01:39:14,200 --> 01:39:16,519
Speaker 1: Are people who literally believe it's like a demon god

1731
01:39:16,520 --> 01:39:20,519
Speaker 1: that's going to destroy things. But I'm interested as there

1732
01:39:20,560 --> 01:39:24,160
Speaker 1: are more of these as you know, this kind of

1733
01:39:24,160 --> 01:39:28,519
Speaker 1: stuff continues to happen, what form that takes, and like

1734
01:39:28,600 --> 01:39:31,519
Speaker 1: how it actually looks when this was this starts to

1735
01:39:31,600 --> 01:39:32,880
Speaker 1: hit politics in a big way.

1736
01:39:33,240 --> 01:39:37,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, US attorney Craig Misakian said, referring to this case

1737
01:39:37,080 --> 01:39:39,040
Speaker 4: that they are going to treat it as an act

1738
01:39:39,080 --> 01:39:40,280
Speaker 4: of domestic terrorism.

1739
01:39:40,400 --> 01:39:43,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it is like it is he was

1740
01:39:43,040 --> 01:39:48,120
Speaker 1: trying to do terrorism, like his goal specifically was to

1741
01:39:48,160 --> 01:39:49,960
Speaker 1: cause changes in policy.

1742
01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:52,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you're right, Like I haven't seen them refer

1743
01:39:52,760 --> 01:39:56,080
Speaker 4: to this from the sort of political lens. Like there's

1744
01:39:56,120 --> 01:39:59,639
Speaker 4: been statements from you know, other US government officials referring

1745
01:39:59,640 --> 01:40:02,599
Speaker 4: to that where house fire as you know, being motivated

1746
01:40:02,600 --> 01:40:05,559
Speaker 4: by anti capitalism and like and like threatened like threatening

1747
01:40:05,560 --> 01:40:07,439
Speaker 4: our way of life, threatening the capitalist way of life,

1748
01:40:07,520 --> 01:40:10,360
Speaker 4: which is that they refer to that warehouse fire in Ontario, California.

1749
01:40:11,640 --> 01:40:14,880
Speaker 4: I've not seen them specifically kind of layout like anti

1750
01:40:14,960 --> 01:40:18,519
Speaker 4: AI sentiments as a motivating factor of terrorism. Yeah, though

1751
01:40:18,560 --> 01:40:23,880
Speaker 4: I'm sure they will quite soon, right, Yeah, between the

1752
01:40:24,040 --> 01:40:28,599
Speaker 4: shots fired at the home of that city councilman in

1753
01:40:28,640 --> 01:40:31,800
Speaker 4: the Midwest over his vote in support of a data

1754
01:40:31,800 --> 01:40:34,680
Speaker 4: center over data centers. As we see more instance kind

1755
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:37,000
Speaker 4: of like that, as we see stuff like this, I

1756
01:40:37,000 --> 01:40:39,360
Speaker 4: think it's it's very likely that they will add anti

1757
01:40:39,400 --> 01:40:43,559
Speaker 4: AA sentiment to the list of common recurring motivating factors

1758
01:40:44,200 --> 01:40:47,400
Speaker 4: of this sort of domestic violent extremism.

1759
01:40:47,600 --> 01:41:05,639
Speaker 11: Yep, all right, bye everybody, Hi, and welcome to the show.

1760
01:41:05,680 --> 01:41:08,880
Speaker 10: It's me James today, and I'm very fortunate to be

1761
01:41:08,960 --> 01:41:12,000
Speaker 10: joined by a member of the UCSD faculty, someone who

1762
01:41:12,040 --> 01:41:15,280
Speaker 10: is a professor of environmental physics at Script's Institution of

1763
01:41:15,320 --> 01:41:19,040
Speaker 10: u Scenography, also teaching the Critical Gender Studies department, and

1764
01:41:19,439 --> 01:41:23,080
Speaker 10: we're talking today about the disciplinary action that they are

1765
01:41:23,120 --> 01:41:27,760
Speaker 10: facing for participation in the Guards of Solidarity encampment. So

1766
01:41:27,920 --> 01:41:29,599
Speaker 10: welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.

1767
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:32,280
Speaker 6: Thank you, James. I'm really happy to be here.

1768
01:41:32,840 --> 01:41:35,560
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's great too. Great to have young Dad. We

1769
01:41:35,600 --> 01:41:38,280
Speaker 10: can share our platform and talk about this, So I

1770
01:41:38,320 --> 01:41:40,719
Speaker 10: think to begin with, you know, it's been a little

1771
01:41:40,720 --> 01:41:43,000
Speaker 10: while perhaps, I know a lot of people have sort

1772
01:41:43,000 --> 01:41:45,920
Speaker 10: of been investigating and changing their politics in the last

1773
01:41:46,000 --> 01:41:49,240
Speaker 10: year or so, So perhaps you could explain a little

1774
01:41:49,280 --> 01:41:52,519
Speaker 10: bit about the Guards of Solidarity encampment, the moment that

1775
01:41:52,680 --> 01:41:54,880
Speaker 10: came in, and the role that it played in the

1776
01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:59,599
Speaker 10: anti genocide of Palestinian liberation movement at uc San Diego.

1777
01:41:59,640 --> 01:42:05,320
Speaker 6: Mob yes once again for this opportunity. So the encampment

1778
01:42:05,520 --> 01:42:11,599
Speaker 6: at UCSD was set up on May first, twenty twenty four,

1779
01:42:12,720 --> 01:42:17,439
Speaker 6: and that was happening in the context of encampments that

1780
01:42:17,479 --> 01:42:22,600
Speaker 6: were being set up at universities across the US. I

1781
01:42:22,640 --> 01:42:29,240
Speaker 6: believe that the UCSD encampment was approximately the hundredth encampment

1782
01:42:30,040 --> 01:42:34,920
Speaker 6: set up in the US at that time. There's quite

1783
01:42:34,920 --> 01:42:37,639
Speaker 6: a number of interesting things about kind of the whole

1784
01:42:37,720 --> 01:42:42,040
Speaker 6: encampment movement. First of all, the fact that they met

1785
01:42:42,080 --> 01:42:47,640
Speaker 6: with such severe repression is very suggestive that how effective

1786
01:42:47,720 --> 01:42:52,000
Speaker 6: they were in bringing the issues related to the genocide

1787
01:42:52,040 --> 01:42:56,080
Speaker 6: and the occupation of Palestine to the forefront in ways

1788
01:42:56,120 --> 01:42:58,960
Speaker 6: that certainly weren't happening in the US at the time.

1789
01:43:00,120 --> 01:43:05,759
Speaker 6: Another thing about the encampments that I found really interesting.

1790
01:43:05,800 --> 01:43:10,880
Speaker 6: But also, I mean, I think brilliant from a organizing perspective,

1791
01:43:11,360 --> 01:43:17,160
Speaker 6: is that they were very visually and viscerally recreating the

1792
01:43:17,240 --> 01:43:22,720
Speaker 6: conditions under which Palestinians in Gaza were living at the

1793
01:43:22,760 --> 01:43:28,040
Speaker 6: time and still are, having been displaced from their residences

1794
01:43:29,439 --> 01:43:34,600
Speaker 6: and being forced to live in these very makeshift tent encampments.

1795
01:43:35,120 --> 01:43:39,280
Speaker 6: And so there was a recreation len of those conditions

1796
01:43:39,400 --> 01:43:42,080
Speaker 6: in a very visual way. And I think that that

1797
01:43:42,280 --> 01:43:46,960
Speaker 6: also was in some sense reminiscent of the shanty towns

1798
01:43:47,040 --> 01:43:53,080
Speaker 6: that were constructed on college campuses in the US in

1799
01:43:53,160 --> 01:43:58,080
Speaker 6: the mid eighties in the anti aparthe type movement. So

1800
01:43:58,160 --> 01:44:02,400
Speaker 6: I think paying attention to some of those details which

1801
01:44:02,400 --> 01:44:05,320
Speaker 6: off and you have lost we started talking about, you know,

1802
01:44:05,479 --> 01:44:10,360
Speaker 6: rise police and so forth. These encampments were They weren't

1803
01:44:10,600 --> 01:44:14,559
Speaker 6: just you know, a bunch of students hanging out. These

1804
01:44:14,560 --> 01:44:20,599
Speaker 6: were constructed and developed in a very thoughtful manner, and

1805
01:44:20,640 --> 01:44:24,599
Speaker 6: that was definitely the case at UCSD, as I was

1806
01:44:24,640 --> 01:44:29,000
Speaker 6: told by students who were participating in it, as a

1807
01:44:29,080 --> 01:44:36,200
Speaker 6: space you engage in education and research about the genocide

1808
01:44:36,720 --> 01:44:42,400
Speaker 6: and about the occupation of Palestine, as well as the

1809
01:44:42,479 --> 01:44:47,679
Speaker 6: ties that UCSD had to the occupation and the genital

1810
01:44:47,880 --> 01:44:52,240
Speaker 6: side in Palestine. So you had, and I talked to

1811
01:44:52,320 --> 01:44:55,559
Speaker 6: many students who were actively engaged in this. You had

1812
01:44:55,600 --> 01:45:02,240
Speaker 6: students sitting on their laptops doing research about the UCSD's

1813
01:45:02,360 --> 01:45:10,000
Speaker 6: ties to weapons and manufacturers, the ways that UCSD supported

1814
01:45:10,400 --> 01:45:14,960
Speaker 6: the discourses that were enabling the genocide and the occupation,

1815
01:45:15,120 --> 01:45:20,000
Speaker 6: including archaeological research. And also you know, there was a

1816
01:45:20,040 --> 01:45:25,480
Speaker 6: program associated with every day and the students would plan teachings.

1817
01:45:26,120 --> 01:45:32,520
Speaker 6: Sometimes professors would do the teachings, sometimes students, sometimes community members.

1818
01:45:33,240 --> 01:45:37,080
Speaker 6: There were teachings on a whole range of really interesting topics,

1819
01:45:37,720 --> 01:45:41,320
Speaker 6: including of course about Palestine, about the genocide, but also

1820
01:45:42,240 --> 01:45:47,280
Speaker 6: about other issues like the role of surveillance and surveillance

1821
01:45:47,320 --> 01:45:53,000
Speaker 6: technology in the genocide, the ecoside that was happening continues

1822
01:45:53,040 --> 01:45:57,320
Speaker 6: to happen in Gaza and Palestine. And so it was

1823
01:45:57,360 --> 01:46:02,440
Speaker 6: a place of an amazing place of learning and research

1824
01:46:03,200 --> 01:46:06,920
Speaker 6: and also community engagement. So as I said, you know,

1825
01:46:07,400 --> 01:46:11,280
Speaker 6: outside speakers are being brought in, community members were coming

1826
01:46:11,320 --> 01:46:17,320
Speaker 6: in and participating and learning, and so you know, those

1827
01:46:17,400 --> 01:46:22,680
Speaker 6: three things research, teaching and community engagement, those are precisely

1828
01:46:23,760 --> 01:46:29,280
Speaker 6: the things that the university tells us as faculty and

1829
01:46:29,360 --> 01:46:34,080
Speaker 6: students that we should be doing so. To me, the

1830
01:46:34,400 --> 01:46:39,639
Speaker 6: encampment was functioning even though it wasn't getting any support

1831
01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:44,559
Speaker 6: from the university, and it was actually Universities throughout its

1832
01:46:45,280 --> 01:46:48,879
Speaker 6: five days of existence, was trying to shut it down.

1833
01:46:49,280 --> 01:46:52,760
Speaker 6: Despite all that, it was functioning essentially like any other

1834
01:46:52,840 --> 01:46:57,120
Speaker 6: research institute on campus, and I would say probably better

1835
01:46:57,800 --> 01:47:00,519
Speaker 6: than many of the research institutes campus.

1836
01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:04,280
Speaker 10: Yeah, you know, I attended a few times to talk

1837
01:47:04,320 --> 01:47:08,160
Speaker 10: to people, to observe, to do my journalism and give

1838
01:47:08,280 --> 01:47:12,280
Speaker 10: As you said, the university immediately was very obviously very hostile.

1839
01:47:12,360 --> 01:47:16,439
Speaker 10: You had people from like university administration giving out little

1840
01:47:17,320 --> 01:47:22,200
Speaker 10: flyers or something about like university rules, and there was

1841
01:47:22,360 --> 01:47:28,240
Speaker 10: constant presence of UCPD, constant presence of administration, constant concerns

1842
01:47:28,280 --> 01:47:31,680
Speaker 10: for people about their safety in the encampment. As you say,

1843
01:47:31,720 --> 01:47:34,280
Speaker 10: the university was very hostile to it, despite it doing

1844
01:47:34,360 --> 01:47:40,519
Speaker 10: things at the university purports to believe in. Let's discuss

1845
01:47:40,560 --> 01:47:45,679
Speaker 10: briefly the history. UCSD hasn't always come down so hard

1846
01:47:45,760 --> 01:47:48,720
Speaker 10: on protest movements, but it also has something of a

1847
01:47:48,800 --> 01:47:53,599
Speaker 10: history of handling these moments very poorly, I would say,

1848
01:47:54,160 --> 01:47:56,200
Speaker 10: So perhaps we could begin Yeah, if you could talk

1849
01:47:56,240 --> 01:47:58,479
Speaker 10: about the anti apartheid movement, and then we can move

1850
01:47:58,560 --> 01:48:01,480
Speaker 10: through what people have called the Black Winter at UCSD

1851
01:48:01,560 --> 01:48:03,880
Speaker 10: and some of the other things that we both have

1852
01:48:03,960 --> 01:48:04,720
Speaker 10: some experience of.

1853
01:48:05,320 --> 01:48:10,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, so it's very interesting to me. I mean, of course,

1854
01:48:10,760 --> 01:48:14,600
Speaker 6: you know, many people are aware of the history of

1855
01:48:15,000 --> 01:48:19,479
Speaker 6: a student activism at UCSD, and many times when you

1856
01:48:19,720 --> 01:48:25,479
Speaker 6: just mentioned that, people immediately think of Angela Davis, who

1857
01:48:26,200 --> 01:48:31,800
Speaker 6: of course was fired by UCSD but then went on

1858
01:48:31,920 --> 01:48:38,280
Speaker 6: to become a distinguished professor at uc Santa Cruz and

1859
01:48:38,880 --> 01:48:45,960
Speaker 6: you know, just prolific and amazing scholar academic but not

1860
01:48:46,600 --> 01:48:51,479
Speaker 6: talking about obscure academic topics, but you know, topics that

1861
01:48:51,520 --> 01:48:56,640
Speaker 6: are directly relevant to people's lives. So many of those topics.

1862
01:48:56,720 --> 01:49:03,040
Speaker 6: And so now, of course UCSDS celebrates Angela Davis without

1863
01:49:03,360 --> 01:49:08,040
Speaker 6: mentioning that they fired her. Yeah, so there's kind there

1864
01:49:08,120 --> 01:49:11,800
Speaker 6: is a little bit of this this Okay, we're going

1865
01:49:11,880 --> 01:49:17,320
Speaker 6: to try to suppress stud's movements, but then later on

1866
01:49:17,479 --> 01:49:21,800
Speaker 6: celebrate them. So there, of course, were quite a number

1867
01:49:21,840 --> 01:49:25,839
Speaker 6: of other stuple led movements. One of them, as you mentioned,

1868
01:49:26,000 --> 01:49:30,519
Speaker 6: was the anti apartheid movement, and of course that was

1869
01:49:30,600 --> 01:49:37,200
Speaker 6: also part of a national movement. Especially Berkeley was very

1870
01:49:37,240 --> 01:49:42,000
Speaker 6: strong campus in that respect, but you know, numerous campuses

1871
01:49:42,040 --> 01:49:46,760
Speaker 6: across the US were involved in that movement, as was UCSD,

1872
01:49:47,439 --> 01:49:51,559
Speaker 6: and we had the UCSD the students, and this was

1873
01:49:51,600 --> 01:49:55,679
Speaker 6: in nineteen eighty five. It took place over a period

1874
01:49:55,840 --> 01:50:01,400
Speaker 6: of about four or five months, as I call. The

1875
01:50:01,479 --> 01:50:06,479
Speaker 6: students had numerous protests and at the time for people

1876
01:50:06,520 --> 01:50:11,000
Speaker 6: who were familiar with the u SSD campus, UCSD has

1877
01:50:11,080 --> 01:50:16,040
Speaker 6: grown significantly since the eighties, but at that time the

1878
01:50:16,200 --> 01:50:22,080
Speaker 6: central meeting place for campus was what's called Ravel College

1879
01:50:22,600 --> 01:50:27,320
Speaker 6: in Revel Plaza, so there were numerous protests there anti

1880
01:50:27,400 --> 01:50:34,000
Speaker 6: apartheype protests. The students on several occasions set replica shanty

1881
01:50:34,040 --> 01:50:38,439
Speaker 6: towns on the Revel Plaza, as happened at many other

1882
01:50:38,560 --> 01:50:45,400
Speaker 6: universities in the US. Those were basically replicas of impoverished

1883
01:50:45,439 --> 01:50:50,160
Speaker 6: conditions that South African black folks had to live in

1884
01:50:50,920 --> 01:50:54,840
Speaker 6: under apartheid in South Africa, so they were setting up

1885
01:50:54,840 --> 01:50:58,439
Speaker 6: to the shantydown student kind of reproduced those conditions visually.

1886
01:50:59,080 --> 01:51:03,320
Speaker 6: In additionally, during that four or five month period, the

1887
01:51:03,360 --> 01:51:08,280
Speaker 6: students occupied the Humanities Library, which was called Galbray Hall.

1888
01:51:08,360 --> 01:51:12,320
Speaker 6: It's just adjacent to rod All Plaza, they took over

1889
01:51:12,400 --> 01:51:15,840
Speaker 6: the library and they occupied it for a month, more

1890
01:51:15,920 --> 01:51:19,080
Speaker 6: than a month, okay, Yeah, And like all of these

1891
01:51:19,080 --> 01:51:24,800
Speaker 6: things happened and there were no invasions of the riot

1892
01:51:24,920 --> 01:51:28,839
Speaker 6: police or anything. And what came out of that movement

1893
01:51:29,280 --> 01:51:35,160
Speaker 6: that the U sees was that the regents decided to

1894
01:51:35,320 --> 01:51:42,479
Speaker 6: divest from all corporations associated with South Africa. So that

1895
01:51:42,600 --> 01:51:46,400
Speaker 6: was like a major win. But it was not just

1896
01:51:46,479 --> 01:51:48,880
Speaker 6: a win for the student movements, but it was also

1897
01:51:48,960 --> 01:51:52,640
Speaker 6: a win for the university because the students who were

1898
01:51:52,720 --> 01:51:58,240
Speaker 6: basically able to show the university that participating in this

1899
01:51:58,680 --> 01:52:02,920
Speaker 6: very unjust system was something that shouldn't be doing. And

1900
01:52:02,960 --> 01:52:07,120
Speaker 6: so the students basically helped the university to see that. Yeah.

1901
01:52:07,280 --> 01:52:10,799
Speaker 6: And so by kind of allowing these protests to happen,

1902
01:52:11,560 --> 01:52:15,200
Speaker 6: in a sense, it allowed the university administration and I'm

1903
01:52:15,200 --> 01:52:19,920
Speaker 6: not singing their praises, because you know, they were quite

1904
01:52:20,160 --> 01:52:23,880
Speaker 6: retrograde in many ways as they are now, but by

1905
01:52:24,400 --> 01:52:26,799
Speaker 6: kind of stepping back and allowing these things to happen,

1906
01:52:27,400 --> 01:52:31,679
Speaker 6: the university was able to learn from what the students

1907
01:52:31,720 --> 01:52:35,120
Speaker 6: were saying and had to act on it. So I

1908
01:52:35,160 --> 01:52:40,760
Speaker 6: feel that that moment in history was something that I mean,

1909
01:52:40,800 --> 01:52:44,760
Speaker 6: I know the current administration hasn't forgotten because they celebrated

1910
01:52:45,479 --> 01:52:49,000
Speaker 6: now they say, you know, how wonderful we were for

1911
01:52:49,720 --> 01:52:53,800
Speaker 6: divesting from South Africa and look at our great students,

1912
01:52:53,840 --> 01:52:57,760
Speaker 6: you know. But okay, so that happened in the eighties.

1913
01:52:58,400 --> 01:53:00,439
Speaker 6: Before we get to Black Winter, I'm just going to

1914
01:53:00,520 --> 01:53:05,639
Speaker 6: mention one other event, which I think is significant, especially

1915
01:53:05,680 --> 01:53:10,400
Speaker 6: when we're thinking about encampments. So, in nineteen ninety two,

1916
01:53:11,400 --> 01:53:15,439
Speaker 6: UCSD was the only uc campus that did not have

1917
01:53:15,520 --> 01:53:21,519
Speaker 6: a women's resource center, and women and their allies on

1918
01:53:21,800 --> 01:53:26,439
Speaker 6: campus had been organizing to get a women's center since

1919
01:53:26,520 --> 01:53:31,160
Speaker 6: the seventies on the UCSD campus, but they have mostly

1920
01:53:31,240 --> 01:53:35,200
Speaker 6: been ignored by the administration or where are we going

1921
01:53:35,240 --> 01:53:39,200
Speaker 6: to find the money, blah blah blah. So student led,

1922
01:53:39,240 --> 01:53:44,240
Speaker 6: but they were also like staff and faculty involved as well,

1923
01:53:44,280 --> 01:53:48,920
Speaker 6: because the prob of misogyny was very real on the

1924
01:53:49,040 --> 01:53:53,960
Speaker 6: UCSD campus. Then I arrived UCSD in nineteen ninety and

1925
01:53:54,080 --> 01:53:59,400
Speaker 6: I immediately saw that problem, so I was very aware

1926
01:53:59,400 --> 01:54:05,120
Speaker 6: of it. So the organizers then of this movement decided

1927
01:54:05,160 --> 01:54:09,880
Speaker 6: to set up an encampment on what is called sun

1928
01:54:09,920 --> 01:54:14,439
Speaker 6: God Lawn, which is kind of a major open space

1929
01:54:14,600 --> 01:54:19,879
Speaker 6: on campus. So they set up this encampment and basically

1930
01:54:19,960 --> 01:54:24,120
Speaker 6: they reproduced what they envisioned a women's center would look like,

1931
01:54:24,560 --> 01:54:28,200
Speaker 6: and so they essentially opened a women's center in this

1932
01:54:28,360 --> 01:54:32,160
Speaker 6: open space. It set up this encampment, they staffed at

1933
01:54:32,920 --> 01:54:35,520
Speaker 6: twenty four to seven and it was up for a week.

1934
01:54:35,920 --> 01:54:42,160
Speaker 6: No arrests room made, no disciplinary charges resulted. But the

1935
01:54:42,280 --> 01:54:46,400
Speaker 6: university then started paying attention to the demand for a

1936
01:54:46,520 --> 01:54:50,680
Speaker 6: resource center, and it took them several years, but they

1937
01:54:50,720 --> 01:54:55,440
Speaker 6: eventually set up the Women's Resource Center that exists now

1938
01:54:56,480 --> 01:55:00,920
Speaker 6: in nineteen ninety five. So again that was an encampment

1939
01:55:01,720 --> 01:55:07,200
Speaker 6: where the administration was basically able to learn from the

1940
01:55:07,240 --> 01:55:13,560
Speaker 6: actings on campus about you know how they basically kind

1941
01:55:13,600 --> 01:55:14,640
Speaker 6: of behave reasonably.

1942
01:55:15,160 --> 01:55:17,760
Speaker 10: Yeah, let's take a little break, and when we come back,

1943
01:55:17,760 --> 01:55:20,280
Speaker 10: when I talk about the Black Winter, which coincides with

1944
01:55:20,320 --> 01:55:23,120
Speaker 10: the start of my own time at uc San Diego.

1945
01:55:32,960 --> 01:55:37,360
Speaker 12: And then the third example of this is something that's

1946
01:55:37,400 --> 01:55:42,200
Speaker 12: called Black Winter, and it's a essentially a three week

1947
01:55:42,760 --> 01:55:48,880
Speaker 12: intense period of organizing on campus that happened. I mean

1948
01:55:48,920 --> 01:55:55,080
Speaker 12: it was in response and direct response to a racist

1949
01:55:55,160 --> 01:55:59,680
Speaker 12: party that was held by one of the UCSD fraternities

1950
01:56:00,320 --> 01:56:04,280
Speaker 12: that they called the Compton Cookout. They put out an

1951
01:56:04,440 --> 01:56:11,600
Speaker 12: announcement on Facebook, which was probably the Golantos today's Instagram,

1952
01:56:12,480 --> 01:56:15,040
Speaker 12: and I don't even know, probably many of your listeners

1953
01:56:15,080 --> 01:56:20,200
Speaker 12: haven't even heard of Facebook, but back then it was

1954
01:56:20,400 --> 01:56:24,040
Speaker 12: was very big, and it was a you know, just

1955
01:56:24,480 --> 01:56:31,919
Speaker 12: despicable racist description of a party where people were supposed

1956
01:56:31,960 --> 01:56:37,640
Speaker 12: to dress up as what they imagine people, you know,

1957
01:56:38,400 --> 01:56:45,240
Speaker 12: characters from from Compton would look like. And of course,

1958
01:56:45,480 --> 01:56:47,720
Speaker 12: you know, students who.

1959
01:56:47,560 --> 01:56:50,760
Speaker 6: Found out about this, you're very upset. At the time.

1960
01:56:51,800 --> 01:56:56,839
Speaker 6: The students in the Black Student Union and in METCHA,

1961
01:56:57,560 --> 01:57:01,840
Speaker 6: who were working very closely together, had been organizing for

1962
01:57:01,960 --> 01:57:05,920
Speaker 6: quite a number of years prior to this around you

1963
01:57:05,960 --> 01:57:10,000
Speaker 6: know what at the time, this is twenty ten, was

1964
01:57:10,040 --> 01:57:15,960
Speaker 6: called campus climate. And that's basically just the fact that

1965
01:57:16,000 --> 01:57:22,560
Speaker 6: there was a lot of racism, sometimes overt racism, sometimes

1966
01:57:23,680 --> 01:57:29,200
Speaker 6: less overt microaggressions that were very common. Yeah, and for

1967
01:57:29,360 --> 01:57:34,480
Speaker 6: many especially black students, but really all students of color

1968
01:57:35,520 --> 01:57:41,440
Speaker 6: and also queer and trans students as were basically had

1969
01:57:41,480 --> 01:57:45,280
Speaker 6: to navigate this like every day, I mean as part

1970
01:57:45,320 --> 01:57:48,520
Speaker 6: of their everyday life. So it was this extra burden

1971
01:57:49,040 --> 01:57:52,240
Speaker 6: on our students and they had been organizing around this

1972
01:57:52,320 --> 01:57:56,360
Speaker 6: for quite some time. They had written a report that

1973
01:57:56,560 --> 01:58:01,160
Speaker 6: was called do you see Us? So you see do

1974
01:58:01,240 --> 01:58:04,520
Speaker 6: you see us? In many ways, they were ready for

1975
01:58:04,720 --> 01:58:07,640
Speaker 6: an event like this. They were prepared.

1976
01:58:07,720 --> 01:58:09,879
Speaker 13: They had been doing a lot of organizing and already,

1977
01:58:10,480 --> 01:58:14,800
Speaker 13: and so when this hit they they basically immediately went

1978
01:58:14,880 --> 01:58:17,760
Speaker 13: to the administration and said, you know, can you do

1979
01:58:17,880 --> 01:58:22,440
Speaker 13: something about this? The administration said, you know, it's free speech.

1980
01:58:23,560 --> 01:58:25,560
Speaker 13: They deployed that phrase when it's.

1981
01:58:25,560 --> 01:58:30,520
Speaker 6: Stillbot but yeah, tactically, so that was the message they

1982
01:58:30,520 --> 01:58:33,720
Speaker 6: were putting out and it became it very quickly became

1983
01:58:33,840 --> 01:58:39,280
Speaker 6: a news item. So local outlets were reporting on it,

1984
01:58:39,880 --> 01:58:44,760
Speaker 6: and the response of the university was free speech, and

1985
01:58:44,880 --> 01:58:48,560
Speaker 6: it basically started escalating. There were a number of students

1986
01:58:48,600 --> 01:58:52,440
Speaker 6: on campus at the time, probably still today but maybe

1987
01:58:52,480 --> 01:58:56,920
Speaker 6: a little bit quieter. We were fairly openly racist, and there

1988
01:58:57,000 --> 01:59:01,800
Speaker 6: was one group. They published a news paper newsletter which

1989
01:59:01,920 --> 01:59:05,640
Speaker 6: was particularly so. And they also had a television show

1990
01:59:06,000 --> 01:59:09,920
Speaker 6: on It doesn't exist anymore. It's called UCSD TV. It

1991
01:59:09,960 --> 01:59:14,320
Speaker 6: was kind of a local TV station. The Compton Cookout

1992
01:59:15,080 --> 01:59:18,640
Speaker 6: Hardy happened on Monday, and that was like a holiday

1993
01:59:18,680 --> 01:59:23,760
Speaker 6: in February. And then on Thursday of that week, the

1994
01:59:24,680 --> 01:59:28,400
Speaker 6: student group that I was talking about how a TV

1995
01:59:28,440 --> 01:59:31,800
Speaker 6: show and they started using the N word explicitly on

1996
01:59:31,880 --> 01:59:36,320
Speaker 6: that show, and a number of students saw that, and

1997
01:59:36,640 --> 01:59:40,400
Speaker 6: of course, we're completely outraged. And so the students in

1998
01:59:40,440 --> 01:59:43,920
Speaker 6: the Black Student Union and kind of their friends were

1999
01:59:43,920 --> 01:59:46,920
Speaker 6: basically trying to figure out what to do, and so

2000
01:59:47,000 --> 01:59:51,000
Speaker 6: they decided to call for a rally on the Library Walk,

2001
01:59:51,040 --> 01:59:55,560
Speaker 6: which is the main one of the main walkways at UCSD,

2002
01:59:56,040 --> 01:59:58,880
Speaker 6: and they called for a rally right in front of

2003
01:59:58,920 --> 02:00:02,840
Speaker 6: the where Chancellor's office was located at the time. And

2004
02:00:02,880 --> 02:00:06,440
Speaker 6: so they had this rally quite a number of people.

2005
02:00:07,000 --> 02:00:12,840
Speaker 6: They called the rally real Pain, Real Action, you know,

2006
02:00:12,920 --> 02:00:16,960
Speaker 6: they were saying, we were feeling real pain at these

2007
02:00:17,080 --> 02:00:21,120
Speaker 6: kind of racist incidents, and we want to see real

2008
02:00:21,160 --> 02:00:25,280
Speaker 6: action by the administration. So they had this rally and

2009
02:00:26,560 --> 02:00:31,120
Speaker 6: the chancellor at the time, who was Mary Ann Fox,

2010
02:00:31,520 --> 02:00:34,680
Speaker 6: came out to the rally, and there's video of this

2011
02:00:36,360 --> 02:00:40,880
Speaker 6: somewhat pathetic video, and basically the organizers of the rally

2012
02:00:40,920 --> 02:00:45,400
Speaker 6: were like chanting leading the chance and then the chancellor

2013
02:00:45,520 --> 02:00:48,960
Speaker 6: was basically following the organizers and trying to put her

2014
02:00:49,240 --> 02:00:52,879
Speaker 6: arm around them as if somehow that would solve everything.

2015
02:00:54,960 --> 02:00:58,400
Speaker 6: You just need a hug, And of course the organizers

2016
02:00:58,400 --> 02:01:03,200
Speaker 6: were like, no getting hear me. I don't want to hug,

2017
02:01:03,280 --> 02:01:07,080
Speaker 6: I want some action. Yeah, this kind of snowballed. The

2018
02:01:07,200 --> 02:01:11,240
Speaker 6: chancellor basically then met with a bunch of these students

2019
02:01:11,280 --> 02:01:14,120
Speaker 6: who had been at a rally and kind of they

2020
02:01:14,120 --> 02:01:17,360
Speaker 6: had they had a list of like thirty demands and

2021
02:01:17,440 --> 02:01:20,400
Speaker 6: she went through the list and it was just like

2022
02:01:20,440 --> 02:01:24,320
Speaker 6: there's video of this too, and it's it's almost I mean,

2023
02:01:24,600 --> 02:01:27,240
Speaker 6: I just feel because I knew like a bunch of

2024
02:01:27,240 --> 02:01:29,920
Speaker 6: these students that I was like, oh my god, you

2025
02:01:29,960 --> 02:01:32,920
Speaker 6: know how awful this must have felt to them.

2026
02:01:33,000 --> 02:01:36,800
Speaker 14: But she was going through this list very rationally and

2027
02:01:36,880 --> 02:01:40,879
Speaker 14: dispassionately and saying, oh, you know we can't do that, sorry,

2028
02:01:42,120 --> 02:01:46,200
Speaker 14: but this one, yes, this one's done, This one's done.

2029
02:01:46,320 --> 02:01:49,440
Speaker 6: And the students were sitting there like, well, if it

2030
02:01:49,520 --> 02:01:52,440
Speaker 6: was done, you know, why haven't you done it? You know,

2031
02:01:52,760 --> 02:01:57,160
Speaker 6: if it's so easy to do? Yeah, And so nothing

2032
02:01:57,480 --> 02:02:01,120
Speaker 6: very definitely came out of that meeting, but the university

2033
02:02:01,280 --> 02:02:06,680
Speaker 6: decided to make a teaching the following Wednesday. And I mean,

2034
02:02:06,760 --> 02:02:11,040
Speaker 6: of course teachings are not the things that people in

2035
02:02:11,160 --> 02:02:15,320
Speaker 6: power do, so they're obviously kind of co opting and

2036
02:02:15,360 --> 02:02:16,520
Speaker 6: appropriating that term.

2037
02:02:16,920 --> 02:02:17,480
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2038
02:02:17,560 --> 02:02:20,880
Speaker 6: So what the students decided to do because they were

2039
02:02:21,040 --> 02:02:23,280
Speaker 6: they knew that this was just going to be okay,

2040
02:02:23,560 --> 02:02:28,920
Speaker 6: we're going to try to bury this basically, yeah, yeah,

2041
02:02:28,960 --> 02:02:31,720
Speaker 6: And so what the students did They organized a press

2042
02:02:31,760 --> 02:02:34,920
Speaker 6: conference that morning, which a lot of press did come

2043
02:02:34,960 --> 02:02:38,720
Speaker 6: out to, and they had really powerful speakers, and this

2044
02:02:38,800 --> 02:02:41,400
Speaker 6: was before the teaching, and then they just went out

2045
02:02:41,400 --> 02:02:45,640
Speaker 6: of march. They marched around the Chancellor's complex, you know,

2046
02:02:45,760 --> 02:02:50,760
Speaker 6: continuously chanting up to the point of the teaching. And

2047
02:02:50,800 --> 02:02:53,680
Speaker 6: so then they all went into the teaching. They had

2048
02:02:53,760 --> 02:02:57,720
Speaker 6: like five hundred people by that time, and the room

2049
02:02:57,800 --> 02:03:01,640
Speaker 6: was just completely act and so they allowed the teaching

2050
02:03:02,120 --> 02:03:07,400
Speaker 6: to start. But then at some point one of the

2051
02:03:07,440 --> 02:03:12,320
Speaker 6: Black student Union members went up and said, we've had

2052
02:03:12,440 --> 02:03:15,600
Speaker 6: enough of this. We're now going to do our own

2053
02:03:16,120 --> 02:03:20,320
Speaker 6: teach out. So they marched out of the teaching and

2054
02:03:20,480 --> 02:03:24,840
Speaker 6: went around to this area that has these steps and

2055
02:03:25,000 --> 02:03:32,240
Speaker 6: just you know, five hundred folks, incredible concentration of black

2056
02:03:32,320 --> 02:03:38,000
Speaker 6: folks and people of color, students and faculty and all

2057
02:03:38,040 --> 02:03:40,840
Speaker 6: of their allies all gathered together and they had to

2058
02:03:40,880 --> 02:03:45,360
Speaker 6: teach out, which was incredibly powerful. And that day I

2059
02:03:45,520 --> 02:03:50,440
Speaker 6: said it myself and for many other people that I

2060
02:03:50,520 --> 02:03:53,080
Speaker 6: knew at the university. We basically all said, this is

2061
02:03:53,120 --> 02:03:57,280
Speaker 6: the best day we've ever had at UCFD, so amazing.

2062
02:03:58,360 --> 02:04:02,280
Speaker 6: The next day, in the library, in the main library,

2063
02:04:02,720 --> 02:04:06,720
Speaker 6: one of the students wits who there found a newsing

2064
02:04:07,000 --> 02:04:11,040
Speaker 6: in the library and of course, I'm sure your listeners

2065
02:04:11,120 --> 02:04:15,520
Speaker 6: know that the news is a very powerful symbol of

2066
02:04:16,200 --> 02:04:21,720
Speaker 6: violence against black votes in the US, and so that

2067
02:04:21,880 --> 02:04:25,760
Speaker 6: was that was traumatizing for so many students. I remember

2068
02:04:26,680 --> 02:04:31,440
Speaker 6: getting text messages from students, you know, saying, you know,

2069
02:04:31,600 --> 02:04:34,120
Speaker 6: I can't come on campus because I don't feel safe

2070
02:04:34,120 --> 02:04:34,760
Speaker 6: here anymore.

2071
02:04:34,880 --> 02:04:35,560
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2072
02:04:35,920 --> 02:04:39,560
Speaker 6: So the next morning, the students held a rally again

2073
02:04:39,640 --> 02:04:43,000
Speaker 6: in front of the Chancellor's office where they were probably

2074
02:04:43,280 --> 02:04:47,360
Speaker 6: I'm guessing close to one thousand people, and people just

2075
02:04:47,400 --> 02:04:51,040
Speaker 6: got up and were talking about what they were feeling

2076
02:04:51,720 --> 02:04:56,640
Speaker 6: in their analysis. The university came in. They sent like

2077
02:04:56,840 --> 02:04:59,760
Speaker 6: a spoth person to say, oh, you know, we have

2078
02:05:00,160 --> 02:05:05,360
Speaker 6: the police out like looking for whoever hangs on the

2079
02:05:05,440 --> 02:05:09,880
Speaker 6: noose or whatever. And I mean, you know, police are

2080
02:05:09,960 --> 02:05:11,240
Speaker 6: not a comfort.

2081
02:05:11,560 --> 02:05:14,080
Speaker 10: No one wanted to hear like, we're sending the cops.

2082
02:05:13,920 --> 02:05:19,320
Speaker 6: At that moment. Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. So the students

2083
02:05:19,320 --> 02:05:23,040
Speaker 6: then went in and they occupied the chancellor's office for

2084
02:05:23,320 --> 02:05:26,800
Speaker 6: the full day, and that really made people set up

2085
02:05:26,800 --> 02:05:31,120
Speaker 6: a nose. And by this time there was international coverage

2086
02:05:31,160 --> 02:05:34,600
Speaker 6: of what was going on. There was an opening of

2087
02:05:34,640 --> 02:05:38,560
Speaker 6: the Civil Rights Investigation on UCSD. I was getting emails

2088
02:05:38,600 --> 02:05:42,360
Speaker 6: from colleagues like in other countries saying, what's going on

2089
02:05:42,760 --> 02:05:47,440
Speaker 6: at is this Like, you know, it sounds like a

2090
02:05:47,520 --> 02:05:52,960
Speaker 6: KKK rally or something, not exactly that, but it's close.

2091
02:05:53,240 --> 02:05:57,600
Speaker 6: So then this all culminated about a week later in

2092
02:05:57,640 --> 02:06:01,800
Speaker 6: a huge rally where much of his library walk was

2093
02:06:01,840 --> 02:06:07,280
Speaker 6: completely packed filled with people. It was definitely blocked. And

2094
02:06:07,480 --> 02:06:11,000
Speaker 6: during that rally, the university said we will commit to

2095
02:06:11,920 --> 02:06:16,240
Speaker 6: implementing these demands, the demands of the students. Of course,

2096
02:06:16,600 --> 02:06:19,800
Speaker 6: in the end they backed off much of that, and

2097
02:06:19,960 --> 02:06:22,600
Speaker 6: so that was like a huge victory and it did

2098
02:06:22,720 --> 02:06:27,240
Speaker 6: result in some pretty substantial changes to use. I'll just

2099
02:06:27,400 --> 02:06:33,280
Speaker 6: mention a couple of them. So UCSD create a Black

2100
02:06:33,360 --> 02:06:37,960
Speaker 6: Resource Center which didn't exist before, a Roser Resource Center,

2101
02:06:38,120 --> 02:06:45,200
Speaker 6: and an intertribal Resource center. So those were significant victories.

2102
02:06:45,720 --> 02:06:52,000
Speaker 6: They also created a undergraduate requirement or requirement that undergraduates

2103
02:06:52,080 --> 02:06:56,880
Speaker 6: take a diversity, Equity and Inclusion course, and that was

2104
02:06:57,320 --> 02:07:01,360
Speaker 6: an attempt to try to change the client it and yea,

2105
02:07:01,920 --> 02:07:06,000
Speaker 6: do some educating. You know, students in California universities come

2106
02:07:06,080 --> 02:07:10,480
Speaker 6: from also to different backgrounds, and some of them are

2107
02:07:10,720 --> 02:07:15,920
Speaker 6: very aware of racism and it's its impacts and anti

2108
02:07:15,920 --> 02:07:20,120
Speaker 6: blackness ins and back, so that some come without that knowledge.

2109
02:07:20,720 --> 02:07:24,720
Speaker 6: So that was significant help, but also at the time

2110
02:07:25,320 --> 02:07:28,920
Speaker 6: was boosted a little bit. It didn't end up maybe

2111
02:07:29,000 --> 02:07:32,680
Speaker 6: being such a great boost, but it didn't boost the

2112
02:07:32,760 --> 02:07:36,200
Speaker 6: departments that teach those kind of courses because now they had,

2113
02:07:36,840 --> 02:07:41,520
Speaker 6: you know, a significantly greater number of students and we're

2114
02:07:41,560 --> 02:07:45,480
Speaker 6: getting more resources as a result. So all those things

2115
02:07:45,560 --> 02:07:51,920
Speaker 6: were were good again, no arrests, no disciplinary actions, and

2116
02:07:52,640 --> 02:07:56,040
Speaker 6: the university learned some valuable lessons.

2117
02:07:56,600 --> 02:08:00,600
Speaker 10: Yeah, definitely, let's take a little break and when come back,

2118
02:08:00,760 --> 02:08:03,360
Speaker 10: I want to talk about this. This like Palestine exception

2119
02:08:03,440 --> 02:08:17,560
Speaker 10: to free speed. All right, we are back. Yeah, I

2120
02:08:17,560 --> 02:08:21,080
Speaker 10: remember that that black Winter moment very well. I recently

2121
02:08:21,160 --> 02:08:24,960
Speaker 10: arrived at UCSD and I was like immediately taken aback

2122
02:08:25,120 --> 02:08:28,040
Speaker 10: by the brazenness of the racism, and it kind of

2123
02:08:28,040 --> 02:08:31,600
Speaker 10: come from Britain, not not a non racist country. But yeah,

2124
02:08:31,760 --> 02:08:36,080
Speaker 10: the openness and the cruelty and the delight that certain

2125
02:08:36,240 --> 02:08:40,040
Speaker 10: people took in that was pretty appalling. Now, if we

2126
02:08:40,080 --> 02:08:44,400
Speaker 10: skip forward thirteen years right to the beginning of the

2127
02:08:44,760 --> 02:08:48,400
Speaker 10: genocide in Gaza, a lot has changed on campus, but

2128
02:08:48,480 --> 02:08:50,760
Speaker 10: also a lot has not. Right, It's still not a

2129
02:08:50,800 --> 02:08:55,080
Speaker 10: massively diverse institution UCSD, even compared to other institutions in

2130
02:08:55,120 --> 02:08:59,240
Speaker 10: the city. But from twenty twenty three through twenty twenty four, right,

2131
02:08:59,280 --> 02:09:02,480
Speaker 10: we have this movement on campus to end the genocide,

2132
02:09:02,520 --> 02:09:05,240
Speaker 10: and Gaza comes a movement it's about more than that, right,

2133
02:09:05,280 --> 02:09:08,720
Speaker 10: about liberation for Palestinian people, and then broadly about like

2134
02:09:09,280 --> 02:09:12,200
Speaker 10: I guess, liberation in the region and what that means.

2135
02:09:12,400 --> 02:09:15,400
Speaker 10: And the university did not respond in the same way.

2136
02:09:15,720 --> 02:09:20,560
Speaker 10: This has led to people theorizing a Palestine exception for

2137
02:09:20,600 --> 02:09:24,080
Speaker 10: free speech. So could you explain that to people? And

2138
02:09:24,120 --> 02:09:26,360
Speaker 10: I thought you had a really interesting approach to it

2139
02:09:26,400 --> 02:09:29,440
Speaker 10: as a scientist that practice could share with people as well.

2140
02:09:30,000 --> 02:09:32,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, as you said, kind of in the wake of

2141
02:09:33,200 --> 02:09:40,160
Speaker 6: October seventh, marked the beginning of Israel's genocide on Gaza. Obviously,

2142
02:09:40,240 --> 02:09:45,520
Speaker 6: it took many people quite a while to conclude it

2143
02:09:45,520 --> 02:09:51,040
Speaker 6: was genocide, but I remember it was almost maybe it

2144
02:09:51,080 --> 02:09:55,280
Speaker 6: was within a week or perhaps ten days of October seventh,

2145
02:09:55,520 --> 02:10:01,000
Speaker 6: the Coalition of Palestinian Unions put out a call for

2146
02:10:01,640 --> 02:10:05,760
Speaker 6: labor solidarity in which they turned to what was happening

2147
02:10:05,800 --> 02:10:08,120
Speaker 6: in jazz sign And there are also others who were

2148
02:10:08,800 --> 02:10:10,160
Speaker 6: doing that as well.

2149
02:10:10,320 --> 02:10:13,840
Speaker 10: Just personally, Like I was in Syria on seventh October,

2150
02:10:14,320 --> 02:10:16,800
Speaker 10: I think I entered that day. I spent some time

2151
02:10:16,840 --> 02:10:19,200
Speaker 10: in Kurdistan, and I remember by the time I was

2152
02:10:19,280 --> 02:10:24,320
Speaker 10: conducting interviews in southern Kurdistan, maybe a week later, maybe

2153
02:10:24,320 --> 02:10:27,280
Speaker 10: ten days later, Kurdish groups were using that phrase right,

2154
02:10:27,640 --> 02:10:33,560
Speaker 10: like there was a sense of like impending disaster that

2155
02:10:33,680 --> 02:10:36,080
Speaker 10: came very quickly. This is what will happen next will

2156
02:10:36,080 --> 02:10:39,120
Speaker 10: be horrific. But yeah, those calls came very quickly, as

2157
02:10:39,160 --> 02:10:39,840
Speaker 10: you said.

2158
02:10:39,840 --> 02:10:45,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, And of course, like students and USSD, we were

2159
02:10:45,680 --> 02:10:49,960
Speaker 6: kind of also coming to those conclusions. The administration was

2160
02:10:50,920 --> 02:10:58,640
Speaker 6: putting out language that was, you know, sympathetic to those

2161
02:10:58,760 --> 02:11:04,839
Speaker 6: who were killed or you know, injured on October seventh,

2162
02:11:05,560 --> 02:11:09,520
Speaker 6: but they were ignoring everything else that was happening. And

2163
02:11:09,720 --> 02:11:14,080
Speaker 6: so of course This wasn't a surprise, but it was

2164
02:11:14,360 --> 02:11:17,320
Speaker 6: part of what was happening. And it was also the

2165
02:11:17,840 --> 02:11:21,960
Speaker 6: kind of language that the university was using, and this

2166
02:11:22,040 --> 02:11:27,880
Speaker 6: is something that continued. It was essentially recalling, even though

2167
02:11:27,920 --> 02:11:32,440
Speaker 6: it kind of had this neutral sense to it, it

2168
02:11:32,480 --> 02:11:38,879
Speaker 6: was recalling the you know, the decades of Islamophobia, anti

2169
02:11:39,000 --> 02:11:43,200
Speaker 6: Arab racism that happened in the wake of of nine

2170
02:11:43,200 --> 02:11:48,200
Speaker 6: to eleven. So in a sense, they were communicating by

2171
02:11:48,320 --> 02:11:52,320
Speaker 6: using that kind of language language around, you know, using

2172
02:11:52,320 --> 02:11:58,040
Speaker 6: words like violence and safety and civility. They were communicating

2173
02:11:58,160 --> 02:12:05,000
Speaker 6: very clearly that people could talk about what happened on

2174
02:12:05,120 --> 02:12:09,040
Speaker 6: the morning of October seventh, but not about anything else.

2175
02:12:10,520 --> 02:12:14,640
Speaker 6: And that was entirely clear. I mean, it's not like

2176
02:12:15,600 --> 02:12:19,920
Speaker 6: we had to do any deep analysis to figure out

2177
02:12:20,320 --> 02:12:25,040
Speaker 6: that's what the administration was saying. And you know, as

2178
02:12:25,080 --> 02:12:31,440
Speaker 6: students organized over the following months, students who were engaged

2179
02:12:31,440 --> 02:12:38,520
Speaker 6: in that organizing or being subject to disciplinary investigations. There

2180
02:12:38,600 --> 02:12:45,560
Speaker 6: were some faculty who were investigating for mentioning the genocide

2181
02:12:46,560 --> 02:12:50,600
Speaker 6: and the occupation of Palestine in their classes, and all

2182
02:12:50,640 --> 02:12:56,360
Speaker 6: of these things were creating a climate of fear but

2183
02:12:56,480 --> 02:13:00,720
Speaker 6: also uncertainty like you could never be sure if what

2184
02:13:00,920 --> 02:13:04,040
Speaker 6: you would say could get you in trouble, and so

2185
02:13:04,360 --> 02:13:06,680
Speaker 6: the easiest thing to do would be to say nothing

2186
02:13:06,720 --> 02:13:07,000
Speaker 6: at all.

2187
02:13:07,360 --> 02:13:10,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's like a chilling effect on speech.

2188
02:13:10,320 --> 02:13:16,640
Speaker 6: Absolutely, so that was happening. This phenomenon, of course, wasn't

2189
02:13:16,680 --> 02:13:20,480
Speaker 6: invented by you say, the administration. It's something that's been

2190
02:13:20,480 --> 02:13:24,400
Speaker 6: going on for quite a while, many many decades. As

2191
02:13:24,440 --> 02:13:29,879
Speaker 6: you mentioned, James, is called the Palestine Exception to free speech.

2192
02:13:30,800 --> 02:13:33,560
Speaker 6: There if anyone wants to find out more about it.

2193
02:13:33,600 --> 02:13:36,560
Speaker 6: I mean, there's a huge amount of scholarly work on it.

2194
02:13:37,200 --> 02:13:42,040
Speaker 6: There's an excellent report that's available freely online which is

2195
02:13:42,080 --> 02:13:46,680
Speaker 6: called exactly that, the Palestine Exception to Free Speech, written

2196
02:13:46,720 --> 02:13:51,720
Speaker 6: by Palestine Legal and the Center for Constitutional Rights. It's

2197
02:13:51,800 --> 02:13:55,600
Speaker 6: very easy to find online. And one of the things

2198
02:13:55,680 --> 02:13:59,680
Speaker 6: as a physicist, I'm very critical of the role of

2199
02:13:59,720 --> 02:14:04,400
Speaker 6: phys in society. You have to think very deeply to

2200
02:14:04,480 --> 02:14:09,480
Speaker 6: be critical of physics, thinking about nuclear physics and so forth.

2201
02:14:09,560 --> 02:14:16,000
Speaker 6: But as a person who does physics professionally, I often

2202
02:14:16,160 --> 02:14:21,480
Speaker 6: think about problems from a physics perspective, and so when

2203
02:14:21,520 --> 02:14:25,120
Speaker 6: I think about the Palestine Exception, I kind of bring

2204
02:14:25,160 --> 02:14:29,360
Speaker 6: a bit of a physics lens to it. So in physics,

2205
02:14:29,440 --> 02:14:33,879
Speaker 6: when we're looking at a phenomenon, we often can't observe

2206
02:14:33,960 --> 02:14:40,040
Speaker 6: that phenomenon directly. And so, for example, people who study

2207
02:14:40,280 --> 02:14:46,200
Speaker 6: the physics of subatomic particles, they will to study how

2208
02:14:46,280 --> 02:14:51,680
Speaker 6: to sub atomic particles interact, or many sub atomic particles interact,

2209
02:14:51,680 --> 02:14:55,720
Speaker 6: they will collide them together. They don't have the precision

2210
02:14:55,800 --> 02:15:01,840
Speaker 6: and the resolution to observe exactly interaction, but they can

2211
02:15:01,920 --> 02:15:07,080
Speaker 6: look before the interaction and then what comes out afterwards.

2212
02:15:07,720 --> 02:15:11,600
Speaker 6: And by looking at those patterns of what goes in

2213
02:15:11,680 --> 02:15:14,200
Speaker 6: and what comes out, they can get an idea of

2214
02:15:14,240 --> 02:15:18,800
Speaker 6: what's happening within that black box. And so this is

2215
02:15:18,840 --> 02:15:23,000
Speaker 6: the way I view the Palestine exception, because the Palestine

2216
02:15:23,040 --> 02:15:26,680
Speaker 6: exception to free speech is just the idea that there

2217
02:15:26,800 --> 02:15:32,640
Speaker 6: are these structures in society that have been formulated such

2218
02:15:32,760 --> 02:15:37,800
Speaker 6: that it makes it very difficult to engage in speech

2219
02:15:37,840 --> 02:15:42,080
Speaker 6: about Palestine. And the impact of that, of course, is

2220
02:15:42,080 --> 02:15:47,120
Speaker 6: that if you can't talk about Palestine, then violence that's

2221
02:15:47,160 --> 02:15:53,160
Speaker 6: committed against Palestinians is something that's enabled facilitated by that

2222
02:15:53,320 --> 02:15:58,400
Speaker 6: lack of discussion. Like I don't have access to the

2223
02:15:58,440 --> 02:16:05,520
Speaker 6: conversations amongst you see the administrators or between u SEE

2224
02:16:05,560 --> 02:16:09,720
Speaker 6: administrators and the main office of the President of U SEE, Like,

2225
02:16:09,760 --> 02:16:12,680
Speaker 6: I don't have access to any of that information. In

2226
02:16:12,680 --> 02:16:15,320
Speaker 6: some sense, that's the black box part of it. But

2227
02:16:15,440 --> 02:16:18,280
Speaker 6: what we can see is kind of what's going in

2228
02:16:18,360 --> 02:16:20,840
Speaker 6: and what's coming out of that box, and so we

2229
02:16:20,880 --> 02:16:25,360
Speaker 6: can see the behaviors, the patterns of behaviors. And so

2230
02:16:25,440 --> 02:16:28,640
Speaker 6: as a physicist, I'm like, Okay, if we're going to

2231
02:16:28,720 --> 02:16:32,640
Speaker 6: look at the uc and say, the University of California

2232
02:16:32,680 --> 02:16:36,480
Speaker 6: and say, is this a place where the Palestine Exception

2233
02:16:36,520 --> 02:16:40,680
Speaker 6: of free speech is operating, then we were not going

2234
02:16:40,760 --> 02:16:43,760
Speaker 6: to be able to have access to the rooms in

2235
02:16:43,800 --> 02:16:47,480
Speaker 6: which that's planned, if it is being planned, But rather

2236
02:16:48,080 --> 02:16:51,320
Speaker 6: we can look at the pattern. And the really interesting

2237
02:16:51,360 --> 02:16:54,360
Speaker 6: thing about this report I cited all right, Signed Legal

2238
02:16:54,360 --> 02:16:57,440
Speaker 6: and the Center Constitutional Rights, is they lay that out

2239
02:16:57,560 --> 02:17:01,160
Speaker 6: very clearly. They lay out, Okay, the Palestine Exception of

2240
02:17:01,240 --> 02:17:05,519
Speaker 6: free speech is basically a combination of these kinds of behaviors.

2241
02:17:06,040 --> 02:17:10,039
Speaker 6: So they talk about things like accusations of anti Semitism,

2242
02:17:10,120 --> 02:17:14,600
Speaker 6: for example, and accusations of support for terrorism. So if

2243
02:17:14,600 --> 02:17:20,160
Speaker 6: you come to any rally pro palestinean rally at UCSD,

2244
02:17:20,400 --> 02:17:26,080
Speaker 6: there's always at least one or many counter protesters who

2245
02:17:26,080 --> 02:17:31,480
Speaker 6: are shared shouting exactly that this is anti semitic, that

2246
02:17:31,920 --> 02:17:35,120
Speaker 6: everyone here is supporting Hamas, you know, and when we

2247
02:17:35,200 --> 02:17:39,160
Speaker 6: say Hamas, you know, that just immediately goes to everybody's

2248
02:17:39,200 --> 02:17:43,000
Speaker 6: mind to terrorism. Yeah, all these kinds of behaviors on

2249
02:17:43,160 --> 02:17:45,440
Speaker 6: it their way out are things that can be seen

2250
02:17:45,840 --> 02:17:49,560
Speaker 6: you see wide campuses, but definitely a UCSD. Yeah.

2251
02:17:49,640 --> 02:17:53,600
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's important to consider, like as we enter a

2252
02:17:53,640 --> 02:17:57,600
Speaker 10: time where like repression of campus speech is at a height, right,

2253
02:17:57,600 --> 02:18:01,200
Speaker 10: like the combination of this Palestine exception and the seeming

2254
02:18:01,280 --> 02:18:04,000
Speaker 10: desire to expel as many international students as possible, that

2255
02:18:04,560 --> 02:18:08,520
Speaker 10: this is contrary to the reason the university exists, as

2256
02:18:08,680 --> 02:18:13,480
Speaker 10: well as as you say, it suppresses opposition to genocide.

2257
02:18:14,680 --> 02:18:18,120
Speaker 10: To finish up, I guess we're not just doing this

2258
02:18:18,200 --> 02:18:20,160
Speaker 10: at the university because it's a place where we like

2259
02:18:20,200 --> 02:18:24,320
Speaker 10: to argue, or because students are particularly predisposed to radical politics,

2260
02:18:24,600 --> 02:18:28,480
Speaker 10: or for any other number of reasons. Right, the university

2261
02:18:28,520 --> 02:18:31,320
Speaker 10: is also part of the apparatus. Can you explain that

2262
02:18:31,360 --> 02:18:34,640
Speaker 10: a little bit like the university is not neutral in

2263
02:18:34,680 --> 02:18:36,000
Speaker 10: this to begin with?

2264
02:18:36,879 --> 02:18:40,879
Speaker 6: Yes, that is certainly true, and I mean that happens

2265
02:18:40,879 --> 02:18:43,880
Speaker 6: in many different ways. Some of the ways we don't

2266
02:18:43,920 --> 02:18:46,320
Speaker 6: even know about, but there are many of those ways

2267
02:18:46,360 --> 02:18:51,760
Speaker 6: that primarily through student research, some faculty research. We have

2268
02:18:52,600 --> 02:18:58,199
Speaker 6: some ideas. Basically a UCSD and other uc campuses, there's

2269
02:18:58,320 --> 02:19:04,920
Speaker 6: quite a lot of military related research, you know, some

2270
02:19:04,959 --> 02:19:09,240
Speaker 6: of them research is not directly related to the genocide,

2271
02:19:09,320 --> 02:19:13,280
Speaker 6: but as we all know, the US is supplying many

2272
02:19:13,320 --> 02:19:18,120
Speaker 6: of the weapons that are being used in the genocide

2273
02:19:18,240 --> 02:19:23,640
Speaker 6: and now in Iran as well, and some of those weapons,

2274
02:19:23,760 --> 02:19:28,520
Speaker 6: like drones, the aspects of them have been designed and

2275
02:19:28,560 --> 02:19:33,400
Speaker 6: worked on at UCSD. Kind of the hardware then of

2276
02:19:33,640 --> 02:19:40,320
Speaker 6: genocide is very much a product of university research, part

2277
02:19:40,360 --> 02:19:43,520
Speaker 6: of which has been time in UCSD at other uc

2278
02:19:43,720 --> 02:19:48,480
Speaker 6: campuses and part at other universities in the US and

2279
02:19:49,440 --> 02:19:54,080
Speaker 6: Israel as well. Another aspect of it which I think

2280
02:19:54,120 --> 02:19:59,680
Speaker 6: we don't know as much about this software. So you know,

2281
02:19:59,720 --> 02:20:04,160
Speaker 6: there's a huge amount of research on artificial intelligence that's

2282
02:20:04,160 --> 02:20:09,400
Speaker 6: happening in UCSD, other uc campuses of other university campuses.

2283
02:20:09,920 --> 02:20:15,840
Speaker 6: I mean, all that research came out of universities. You know,

2284
02:20:15,920 --> 02:20:22,760
Speaker 6: as we now know through credible journalistic investigations that Israel

2285
02:20:22,920 --> 02:20:28,640
Speaker 6: is using artificial intelligence and it's targeting. Yeah, and apparently

2286
02:20:28,680 --> 02:20:32,560
Speaker 6: that's also happening in the US military as well. You know.

2287
02:20:32,640 --> 02:20:37,320
Speaker 6: So there's like another very direct connection. A third connection

2288
02:20:37,480 --> 02:20:41,800
Speaker 6: which is very strong at UCSD or so many other campuses,

2289
02:20:42,680 --> 02:20:47,800
Speaker 6: is that part of the creation of a discourse that

2290
02:20:48,120 --> 02:20:56,400
Speaker 6: legitimizes and justifies Israel's occupation of Colstein is archaeology. And

2291
02:20:57,440 --> 02:21:00,200
Speaker 6: I'm not an expert in this field, but I could

2292
02:21:00,240 --> 02:21:02,760
Speaker 6: just kind of cite what other people I've talked about,

2293
02:21:02,879 --> 02:21:09,800
Speaker 6: but there are many archaeological investigations that UCSD academics have

2294
02:21:09,879 --> 02:21:18,199
Speaker 6: participated in Israel that contribute to creating this story that

2295
02:21:18,520 --> 02:21:24,800
Speaker 6: the people running Israel and Israeli citizens are the rightful

2296
02:21:25,680 --> 02:21:30,920
Speaker 6: owners of that land and that the Palestinians came in

2297
02:21:31,720 --> 02:21:36,120
Speaker 6: at some late point, maybe a couple of decades before

2298
02:21:36,760 --> 02:21:39,520
Speaker 6: the founding of Israel, which of course is completely false,

2299
02:21:40,080 --> 02:21:44,240
Speaker 6: and there's so much scholarship about that. But that's the

2300
02:21:45,280 --> 02:21:50,240
Speaker 6: that's the purpose of those investigations, and so again that's

2301
02:21:50,280 --> 02:21:56,280
Speaker 6: connected to universities and the UCSD in particular. One can't

2302
02:21:56,320 --> 02:22:01,840
Speaker 6: really argue that the having a discussion about simplicity and

2303
02:22:01,920 --> 02:22:07,200
Speaker 6: jazz side is something that is not of interest to UCSD.

2304
02:22:07,560 --> 02:22:11,120
Speaker 10: The definitelys Yeah, Okay, it have to happen at the

2305
02:22:11,200 --> 02:22:14,600
Speaker 10: university because it is about the university. Yes, I think

2306
02:22:14,600 --> 02:22:17,600
Speaker 10: they finish up. We've outlined why it's important, we have

2307
02:22:17,680 --> 02:22:21,480
Speaker 10: outlined how anti genocidal speech when it is about Palestinian

2308
02:22:21,480 --> 02:22:24,480
Speaker 10: people is treated differently, and we've outlined why there is

2309
02:22:24,520 --> 02:22:29,240
Speaker 10: a chilling effect. I understand some people, especially international students

2310
02:22:29,240 --> 02:22:32,520
Speaker 10: and non citizen faculty, et cetera, have real concerns, and

2311
02:22:32,560 --> 02:22:34,600
Speaker 10: I want to respect those. But for people who would

2312
02:22:34,680 --> 02:22:37,680
Speaker 10: like to they should continue to speak out right, like,

2313
02:22:38,080 --> 02:22:40,760
Speaker 10: we all lose even if we have if you somehow

2314
02:22:40,800 --> 02:22:43,560
Speaker 10: are unconcerned by genocide of fellows, human beings, if the

2315
02:22:43,640 --> 02:22:47,240
Speaker 10: university becomes a space where certain things are oppressed, and

2316
02:22:47,280 --> 02:22:49,280
Speaker 10: what we can't stand up for each other. So, like,

2317
02:22:49,959 --> 02:22:54,080
Speaker 10: what resources would you suggest for those people? As new

2318
02:22:54,120 --> 02:22:57,000
Speaker 10: students are coming into university this year, they've lived half

2319
02:22:57,160 --> 02:22:59,400
Speaker 10: their high school years through this genocide. I'm sure many

2320
02:22:59,400 --> 02:23:02,440
Speaker 10: of them will want continue advocating. What would you suggest

2321
02:23:02,440 --> 02:23:03,120
Speaker 10: for them?

2322
02:23:03,400 --> 02:23:08,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, especially for students, I would suggest to connect with

2323
02:23:08,600 --> 02:23:12,240
Speaker 6: organizations that are already kind of doing this work. So

2324
02:23:13,120 --> 02:23:16,280
Speaker 6: you know, at UCSD there's Students for Justice in Palestine

2325
02:23:16,360 --> 02:23:20,640
Speaker 6: but there's also quite a number of other student organizations.

2326
02:23:20,800 --> 02:23:25,480
Speaker 6: Like tomorrow we're having a major Earth Day rally where

2327
02:23:26,160 --> 02:23:33,160
Speaker 6: organizations Students for Justice Palestine, but also anti imperialist organization

2328
02:23:33,400 --> 02:23:39,560
Speaker 6: like SPARK, and then other organizations like Green New Deal, Students,

2329
02:23:39,600 --> 02:23:45,280
Speaker 6: sustainability collectives. They're all coming together to talk about Palestine

2330
02:23:45,640 --> 02:23:50,080
Speaker 6: and the ego side Palestine and the jedocide in Palestine.

2331
02:23:50,560 --> 02:23:53,720
Speaker 6: So I think that there are ways for students from

2332
02:23:53,760 --> 02:23:58,519
Speaker 6: a broad range of interests and backgrounds to get involved

2333
02:23:58,640 --> 02:24:02,320
Speaker 6: in organizing. You know, it's not like you have to

2334
02:24:02,400 --> 02:24:06,280
Speaker 6: start that from scratch. People are already doing that. It

2335
02:24:06,360 --> 02:24:08,760
Speaker 6: might be a little bit hard at your university to

2336
02:24:08,840 --> 02:24:13,000
Speaker 6: find those because of the suppression, but if you if

2337
02:24:13,000 --> 02:24:15,760
Speaker 6: you ask around, you will, or if you look on

2338
02:24:15,800 --> 02:24:19,360
Speaker 6: social media you will, you will find those folks. That's

2339
02:24:19,360 --> 02:24:24,320
Speaker 6: why I would start as a student. For faculty and

2340
02:24:24,600 --> 02:24:29,960
Speaker 6: staff especially, it's a little bit more difficult because we're,

2341
02:24:30,320 --> 02:24:36,600
Speaker 6: you know, as employees, we're very vulnerable. Faculty with tenure

2342
02:24:37,040 --> 02:24:40,920
Speaker 6: are less vulnerable. But you know, my case and other

2343
02:24:41,120 --> 02:24:46,200
Speaker 6: faculties cases are our examples of how tenure doesn't really

2344
02:24:46,240 --> 02:24:51,440
Speaker 6: protect you from this if they're determined. So I feel

2345
02:24:51,520 --> 02:24:55,760
Speaker 6: that there's again here. What we need to do is

2346
02:24:55,800 --> 02:24:58,720
Speaker 6: to kind of work collectively, so you don't want to

2347
02:24:58,720 --> 02:25:02,760
Speaker 6: fight the system on your own, but find other faculty

2348
02:25:03,160 --> 02:25:07,640
Speaker 6: who are doing this work and basically who can can

2349
02:25:07,800 --> 02:25:12,480
Speaker 6: work as a support network and kind of collectively find

2350
02:25:12,600 --> 02:25:18,080
Speaker 6: ways to speak out to support our students, which I

2351
02:25:18,080 --> 02:25:23,360
Speaker 6: think is in many ways our primary responsibility with regard

2352
02:25:23,440 --> 02:25:29,800
Speaker 6: to the genocide, and basically create spaces where where it's

2353
02:25:29,840 --> 02:25:31,680
Speaker 6: possible to talk about the genocide.

2354
02:25:33,160 --> 02:25:35,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, I think it's really important. I guess I'll just say, like,

2355
02:25:36,240 --> 02:25:38,240
Speaker 10: if you're a student or faculty and you see someone

2356
02:25:38,280 --> 02:25:40,520
Speaker 10: involved in its advocacy, like, don't feel afraid to go

2357
02:25:40,600 --> 02:25:44,359
Speaker 10: talk to them and ask either. Like university can be intimidating,

2358
02:25:45,360 --> 02:25:48,720
Speaker 10: especially when you're a new faculty member also undergraduate for

2359
02:25:48,760 --> 02:25:50,959
Speaker 10: that matter, Like it can be hard to meet people

2360
02:25:51,000 --> 02:25:53,640
Speaker 10: and talk to people, but I think most people would

2361
02:25:53,640 --> 02:25:55,760
Speaker 10: be happy if you did. Is there anything else you'd

2362
02:25:55,800 --> 02:25:57,480
Speaker 10: like to share with people? Before we'd wrap up?

2363
02:25:58,040 --> 02:26:01,400
Speaker 6: There was so much? Yeah, so I do hope we

2364
02:26:01,400 --> 02:26:03,080
Speaker 6: can talk again sometime.

2365
02:26:03,440 --> 02:26:07,160
Speaker 15: Yes we will, But also just maybe I just want

2366
02:26:07,160 --> 02:26:11,240
Speaker 15: to say, you know, thanks to you, there aren't you know,

2367
02:26:11,280 --> 02:26:13,640
Speaker 15: a huge number of spaces where we can have these.

2368
02:26:13,560 --> 02:26:14,640
Speaker 6: Kinds of discussions.

2369
02:26:14,680 --> 02:26:17,959
Speaker 16: So so I'm really grateful, you know, I know that

2370
02:26:18,040 --> 02:26:21,080
Speaker 16: you do doing not just this kind of work, but

2371
02:26:21,160 --> 02:26:26,119
Speaker 16: also you know, really going out and reporting on stories that.

2372
02:26:26,120 --> 02:26:30,119
Speaker 6: Aren't being told. And so I'm grateful to you basically

2373
02:26:30,200 --> 02:26:31,000
Speaker 6: for doing that work.

2374
02:26:31,280 --> 02:26:32,280
Speaker 10: It's very kind. Thank you.

2375
02:26:45,920 --> 02:26:49,560
Speaker 4: This is it could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly

2376
02:26:49,600 --> 02:26:52,520
Speaker 4: newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world,

2377
02:26:52,560 --> 02:26:55,160
Speaker 4: and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis to Dame,

2378
02:26:55,280 --> 02:26:59,520
Speaker 4: joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans. This

2379
02:26:59,560 --> 02:27:05,000
Speaker 4: episode recovering the week of April sixteenth to April twenty second. James,

2380
02:27:05,160 --> 02:27:06,800
Speaker 4: some small news items at the start.

2381
02:27:07,760 --> 02:27:10,039
Speaker 10: Yeah, a few things I want to discuss up top.

2382
02:27:10,680 --> 02:27:14,440
Speaker 10: The United States government appears to be running multiple propaganda

2383
02:27:14,520 --> 02:27:19,760
Speaker 10: sites with associated X accounts that are posing as Iranian media.

2384
02:27:20,480 --> 02:27:23,320
Speaker 10: One of the accounts is located in Florida. This is not,

2385
02:27:23,520 --> 02:27:26,880
Speaker 10: like massively uncommon in a conflict out of this right now,

2386
02:27:27,760 --> 02:27:29,320
Speaker 10: the information war is part of the war.

2387
02:27:29,560 --> 02:27:31,960
Speaker 4: This is what like US actual psyop is like, this

2388
02:27:32,040 --> 02:27:34,680
Speaker 4: is what the United States syop operations are.

2389
02:27:35,080 --> 02:27:37,520
Speaker 10: Yeah, the syop is not like the woman sold you

2390
02:27:37,600 --> 02:27:38,640
Speaker 10: that you follow on Instagram.

2391
02:27:38,959 --> 02:27:41,600
Speaker 1: This isn't new for the US to be doing. It

2392
02:27:41,680 --> 02:27:43,959
Speaker 1: is new for it to be like this sloppy. I

2393
02:27:43,959 --> 02:27:46,200
Speaker 1: think that's probably fair to say this is like a

2394
02:27:46,280 --> 02:27:47,360
Speaker 1: sloppier than normal.

2395
02:27:47,480 --> 02:27:50,600
Speaker 10: Yes, that's what's remarkable here. It said it's shoddy. Yeah,

2396
02:27:51,360 --> 02:27:53,080
Speaker 10: and that is not a good sign for their for

2397
02:27:53,200 --> 02:27:56,199
Speaker 10: like the whole US sort of capacity in this regard.

2398
02:27:56,240 --> 02:27:57,760
Speaker 9: But it depends on how you think about it.

2399
02:27:57,760 --> 02:28:02,160
Speaker 10: But yeah, yeah, yeah, sure's Actually a number of former

2400
02:28:02,360 --> 02:28:06,800
Speaker 10: DHS Department pronoun Security and IODS, Immigration and Naturalization Services

2401
02:28:06,800 --> 02:28:09,760
Speaker 10: officials have filed an amicus brief with a Supreme Court

2402
02:28:09,800 --> 02:28:13,840
Speaker 10: explaining why the cancelation of the Haiti TPS Temporary Protected

2403
02:28:13,879 --> 02:28:18,520
Speaker 10: Status is illegal. They do include Janet Napolitano, which is nice,

2404
02:28:18,800 --> 02:28:22,400
Speaker 10: but a ton of people from Obama Bush, even Clinton

2405
02:28:22,520 --> 02:28:28,320
Speaker 10: admin pre DHS I ins were pilots amakus brief. An

2406
02:28:28,440 --> 02:28:32,600
Speaker 10: IDF soldier has been photographed destroying a statue of the

2407
02:28:32,600 --> 02:28:36,160
Speaker 10: Crucifixion of Jesus Christ in Lebanon, showing it with a

2408
02:28:36,240 --> 02:28:39,080
Speaker 10: splitting more. A lot of reporting called it a sledge hammer.

2409
02:28:39,400 --> 02:28:41,760
Speaker 10: That's not what a sledgehammer looks like I know, I

2410
02:28:41,760 --> 02:28:44,039
Speaker 10: get really picky about this, but like, maybe if you

2411
02:28:44,080 --> 02:28:45,879
Speaker 10: haven't worked with your hands, you should write things that

2412
02:28:45,920 --> 02:28:48,440
Speaker 10: can be read by someone who has scan and not

2413
02:28:48,520 --> 02:28:53,320
Speaker 10: be completely ridiculous. The IDF has launched an investigation and

2414
02:28:53,400 --> 02:28:56,480
Speaker 10: so far subjected two soldiers to thirty days in military detention,

2415
02:28:57,040 --> 02:28:58,760
Speaker 10: which is more than they would get if they had

2416
02:28:58,840 --> 02:29:02,800
Speaker 10: killed actual Christian children in Palestine. Says a Lot, I

2417
02:29:02,840 --> 02:29:05,600
Speaker 10: think that this image is like, we spoke about this

2418
02:29:05,640 --> 02:29:08,200
Speaker 10: in our group chat, but this is the it's one image,

2419
02:29:08,200 --> 02:29:10,320
Speaker 10: It's comic book evil. There are many reasons why this

2420
02:29:10,440 --> 02:29:13,440
Speaker 10: is the thing that's blowing up for them. Ken Paxton

2421
02:29:13,600 --> 02:29:17,279
Speaker 10: is investigating Act Blue. Act Blue is a major donation

2422
02:29:17,400 --> 02:29:21,520
Speaker 10: website for Democratic candidates, is claiming that they have continued

2423
02:29:21,560 --> 02:29:27,120
Speaker 10: to accept gift card donations, which could hide donations from

2424
02:29:27,440 --> 02:29:31,560
Speaker 10: foreign individuals or corporations or even states. I suppose the

2425
02:29:32,040 --> 02:29:35,680
Speaker 10: United States government's plans to send Afghans who are stuck

2426
02:29:35,720 --> 02:29:39,320
Speaker 10: in limbo in Kata to the Democratic Republic of Congo

2427
02:29:40,000 --> 02:29:43,000
Speaker 10: being reported on by the New York Times. Just for

2428
02:29:43,120 --> 02:29:45,920
Speaker 10: some context here, I saw people sharing this and thinking

2429
02:29:46,400 --> 02:29:49,560
Speaker 10: that they that this referred to Afghan SIV recipient who

2430
02:29:49,560 --> 02:29:51,960
Speaker 10: a resident in the United States. That is not what

2431
02:29:51,959 --> 02:29:54,400
Speaker 10: it's referring to. It's referring to people who the Biden

2432
02:29:54,440 --> 02:29:59,760
Speaker 10: administration removed from Afghanistan or wherever they worked in Pakistan

2433
02:30:00,560 --> 02:30:02,480
Speaker 10: and then took them to kata As like a temporary

2434
02:30:02,480 --> 02:30:05,119
Speaker 10: stopping off point where they would continue to do their

2435
02:30:05,200 --> 02:30:08,480
Speaker 10: vetting and background checks. This is normal for refugee admissions

2436
02:30:08,520 --> 02:30:12,720
Speaker 10: as opposed to asylum admissions. And then the twenty twenty

2437
02:30:12,760 --> 02:30:15,000
Speaker 10: four election have been Democrats lost, and that people have

2438
02:30:15,040 --> 02:30:17,080
Speaker 10: been in limbo ever since, and it appears to Trump

2439
02:30:17,120 --> 02:30:20,120
Speaker 10: administration has been trying to get them various states in

2440
02:30:20,160 --> 02:30:23,320
Speaker 10: Africa to accept them, and it's now proposing the Democratic

2441
02:30:23,360 --> 02:30:26,480
Speaker 10: Republic of Congo, a country which already has a significant

2442
02:30:26,520 --> 02:30:27,520
Speaker 10: refugee crisis.

2443
02:30:28,280 --> 02:30:31,800
Speaker 4: Ron Decentis, who is term limited as governor, has been

2444
02:30:31,879 --> 02:30:36,040
Speaker 4: jockeying for a position inside the Trump administration. Axios reports

2445
02:30:36,080 --> 02:30:39,160
Speaker 4: Dessentis has expressed interest in being a Secretary of War,

2446
02:30:39,400 --> 02:30:45,280
Speaker 4: attorney general, or even a Supreme Court justice. Trump is

2447
02:30:45,320 --> 02:30:50,080
Speaker 4: expected to reclassify marijuana as soon as maybe today. We're

2448
02:30:50,120 --> 02:30:52,440
Speaker 4: recording this on Wednesday, April twenty second.

2449
02:30:52,600 --> 02:30:54,360
Speaker 9: Fingers crossed earlier this.

2450
02:30:54,320 --> 02:30:56,720
Speaker 4: Week Trump signed an executive order to advance its psychedelic

2451
02:30:56,800 --> 02:31:00,800
Speaker 4: treatment for mental illness and possibly reschedule certainly substances which

2452
02:31:00,840 --> 02:31:03,080
Speaker 4: have completed phase three clinical trials.

2453
02:31:03,440 --> 02:31:03,640
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2454
02:31:03,680 --> 02:31:06,200
Speaker 2: This, this is the real sign that their internal polling

2455
02:31:06,240 --> 02:31:09,359
Speaker 2: is showing Trump really closing on getting blow thirty percent approval.

2456
02:31:09,720 --> 02:31:14,880
Speaker 1: That's that's the most whatever gets. It's actual legal marijuana.

2457
02:31:15,040 --> 02:31:18,160
Speaker 9: Fuck it. Yeah, Like at this point.

2458
02:31:18,320 --> 02:31:20,400
Speaker 10: It's such an easy win, and it's been an easy

2459
02:31:20,440 --> 02:31:23,560
Speaker 10: win for the last three presidents, and anyone could have

2460
02:31:23,640 --> 02:31:24,759
Speaker 10: done it.

2461
02:31:24,120 --> 02:31:27,640
Speaker 1: It's a gun that's been left on the ground and

2462
02:31:27,959 --> 02:31:30,680
Speaker 1: fucking Trump finally just picked the damn thing up after

2463
02:31:30,840 --> 02:31:32,920
Speaker 1: it got covered in an inch and a half at dust.

2464
02:31:33,480 --> 02:31:34,720
Speaker 9: Like unbelievable.

2465
02:31:35,160 --> 02:31:37,720
Speaker 2: They're desperate, keep pushing. We can get like completely legal

2466
02:31:37,720 --> 02:31:39,640
Speaker 2: ELOSD I believe in us m hmm.

2467
02:31:40,480 --> 02:31:44,520
Speaker 4: On Fox News' Sunday Morning Show, Cash Burttel announced that

2468
02:31:44,520 --> 02:31:48,080
Speaker 4: the FBI will soon make arrests related to Trump's claims

2469
02:31:48,200 --> 02:31:52,320
Speaker 4: that the twenty twenty election was stolen, with Patel saying, quote,

2470
02:31:52,560 --> 02:31:56,359
Speaker 4: they tried to thwart our elections and rig the entire system.

2471
02:31:56,760 --> 02:31:58,879
Speaker 17: I can announce on your show that we've got all

2472
02:31:58,920 --> 02:32:01,520
Speaker 17: the information we need We're working with our prosecutors, a

2473
02:32:01,600 --> 02:32:04,360
Speaker 17: Department of Justice and their Attorney General, Todd Blanche and

2474
02:32:04,480 --> 02:32:07,400
Speaker 17: we are going to be making arrest and it's coming,

2475
02:32:07,440 --> 02:32:09,360
Speaker 17: and I promise you it's coming soon.

2476
02:32:10,040 --> 02:32:14,200
Speaker 4: Bettel later said it's a conspiracy case and that quote,

2477
02:32:14,560 --> 02:32:19,680
Speaker 4: we have the information to back President Trump's claims. On Tuesday,

2478
02:32:19,840 --> 02:32:23,840
Speaker 4: voters in Virginia approved a redistracting measure which would likely

2479
02:32:23,920 --> 02:32:28,080
Speaker 4: move four Republican seats to Democrat seats in the midterms.

2480
02:32:28,600 --> 02:32:31,160
Speaker 4: This measure passed was fifty one point five percent of

2481
02:32:31,200 --> 02:32:35,560
Speaker 4: the vote, totaling over three million votes. Virginia joins California

2482
02:32:35,680 --> 02:32:39,080
Speaker 4: in approving new congressional maps to combat the recent gerrymandering

2483
02:32:39,400 --> 02:32:42,640
Speaker 4: in red states like Texas. At the behest of Trump,

2484
02:32:43,560 --> 02:32:47,359
Speaker 4: but now with Virginia, Dems are actually up one seat nationally.

2485
02:32:47,879 --> 02:32:50,440
Speaker 4: Ronda Santis has called for Florida lawmakers to meet next

2486
02:32:50,480 --> 02:32:54,600
Speaker 4: week to consider redistricting in their state. Trump has called

2487
02:32:54,640 --> 02:32:58,760
Speaker 4: the Virginia election quote unquote rigged, saying that Republicans were

2488
02:32:58,760 --> 02:33:03,920
Speaker 4: winning until a quote massive mail in ballot drop quote,

2489
02:33:04,160 --> 02:33:07,840
Speaker 4: which is just how elections work. That's just how voting works.

2490
02:33:08,600 --> 02:33:12,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were winning until more people voted for the other.

2491
02:33:12,280 --> 02:33:14,800
Speaker 4: Until we counted more votes that showed that we did

2492
02:33:14,800 --> 02:33:15,160
Speaker 4: not win.

2493
02:33:15,800 --> 02:33:19,480
Speaker 2: We just live in the twenty sixteen election forever. Now, Yeah,

2494
02:33:19,480 --> 02:33:19,959
Speaker 2: it's great.

2495
02:33:20,040 --> 02:33:22,920
Speaker 1: I was doing pretty well in that boxing match until

2496
02:33:23,000 --> 02:33:24,080
Speaker 1: it started.

2497
02:33:24,480 --> 02:33:26,160
Speaker 10: Until the other guy punched me in the face.

2498
02:33:27,160 --> 02:33:30,840
Speaker 4: The margin of victory closely matches the result of the

2499
02:33:30,840 --> 02:33:35,400
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four presidential election in Virginia. Republicans have challenged

2500
02:33:35,400 --> 02:33:39,360
Speaker 4: the Virginia redistricting in court since before today's election, and

2501
02:33:39,400 --> 02:33:41,520
Speaker 4: the Supreme Court of Virginia ruled that the measure could

2502
02:33:41,520 --> 02:33:45,040
Speaker 4: go to a vote while legal challenges continue. This is

2503
02:33:45,080 --> 02:33:48,160
Speaker 4: the second most important election this week, the most important

2504
02:33:48,160 --> 02:33:51,800
Speaker 4: one obviously being the Webbys, in which I think we

2505
02:33:52,160 --> 02:33:57,040
Speaker 4: can announce we have won Woo in unrigged election matters,

2506
02:33:57,080 --> 02:33:59,800
Speaker 4: the only fair election that this country is seen, possibly

2507
02:33:59,840 --> 02:34:01,400
Speaker 4: in like over twenty five years.

2508
02:34:01,600 --> 02:34:04,440
Speaker 10: That's why they selected Claude as Person of the year.

2509
02:34:05,000 --> 02:34:08,200
Speaker 1: Clearly, the Webbees in twenty twenty six are the only

2510
02:34:08,240 --> 02:34:10,320
Speaker 1: election that's going to affect anybody's lives.

2511
02:34:10,520 --> 02:34:13,760
Speaker 9: I think we can all agree on that anyway.

2512
02:34:14,560 --> 02:34:17,879
Speaker 1: So as you probably are aware, because the President shouts

2513
02:34:17,879 --> 02:34:20,840
Speaker 1: about it every ten minutes, there's a ceasefire currently in

2514
02:34:20,840 --> 02:34:24,720
Speaker 1: effect in the conflict with Iran, the war of choice

2515
02:34:24,720 --> 02:34:26,960
Speaker 1: that we started with Iran. James is going to talk

2516
02:34:26,959 --> 02:34:28,600
Speaker 1: a little bit more about that in a second. But

2517
02:34:29,320 --> 02:34:32,160
Speaker 1: because of the stand down, there's been kind of time

2518
02:34:32,400 --> 02:34:37,360
Speaker 1: for both forces to you know, reassess things, and time

2519
02:34:37,400 --> 02:34:40,080
Speaker 1: for outside people to reassess like kind of what we

2520
02:34:40,160 --> 02:34:43,800
Speaker 1: can tell about what's going on. Obviously, in the immediate

2521
02:34:43,840 --> 02:34:47,560
Speaker 1: wake of Operation Epic Fury, and is recently as last Tuesday,

2522
02:34:47,680 --> 02:34:50,680
Speaker 1: President Trump said, quote, we've taken out their navy, We've

2523
02:34:50,680 --> 02:34:53,680
Speaker 1: taken out their air force, We've taken out their leaders.

2524
02:34:54,280 --> 02:34:58,279
Speaker 1: On April eighth, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth called Operation Epic

2525
02:34:58,320 --> 02:35:02,360
Speaker 1: Fury a historic and overwhel victory on the battlefield. By

2526
02:35:02,400 --> 02:35:05,879
Speaker 1: any measure, Epic Fury decimated Iran's military and rendered it

2527
02:35:05,920 --> 02:35:09,640
Speaker 1: combat and effective for years to come. Now, that last sentence,

2528
02:35:10,000 --> 02:35:13,039
Speaker 1: the first part is technically accurate.

2529
02:35:12,600 --> 02:35:14,640
Speaker 9: But not in the way that hegseeth means.

2530
02:35:15,000 --> 02:35:16,880
Speaker 10: No one knows what decimate means anymore.

2531
02:35:16,959 --> 02:35:21,360
Speaker 1: Decimate literally means to destroy like a tenth of a group. Yeah, right, yea,

2532
02:35:21,840 --> 02:35:25,080
Speaker 1: And yeah, that's pretty accurate, right, But the second part

2533
02:35:25,080 --> 02:35:27,720
Speaker 1: of that sentence rendered it combat and effective for years

2534
02:35:27,760 --> 02:35:30,680
Speaker 1: to come is not accurate. Neither is Trump's statement that

2535
02:35:30,680 --> 02:35:34,039
Speaker 1: we've taken out their navy and their air force. CBS

2536
02:35:34,080 --> 02:35:39,080
Speaker 1: published an article today reporting that roughly sixty percent of

2537
02:35:39,120 --> 02:35:42,360
Speaker 1: the naval arm of the Islamic Revolutionary guardcore is still

2538
02:35:42,360 --> 02:35:47,600
Speaker 1: in existence, including fast tag speedboats and Iranian air power,

2539
02:35:47,640 --> 02:35:51,240
Speaker 1: while it's been degraded, is still significantly more functional than

2540
02:35:51,280 --> 02:35:54,680
Speaker 1: actually I had assumed. About two thirds of the Iranian

2541
02:35:54,720 --> 02:35:58,920
Speaker 1: Air Force is still believed to be operational, despite the

2542
02:35:59,040 --> 02:36:02,840
Speaker 1: massive US in his Israeli air strikes largely targeting air

2543
02:36:02,920 --> 02:36:06,920
Speaker 1: production and storage facilities. The fact that you're looking at

2544
02:36:07,000 --> 02:36:12,080
Speaker 1: two thirds of Iran's navy and air force still functional

2545
02:36:12,440 --> 02:36:15,760
Speaker 1: and at least about half their ballistic missile stockpile and

2546
02:36:15,800 --> 02:36:22,000
Speaker 1: their launch system stockpile intact. That's a significant difference from

2547
02:36:22,000 --> 02:36:25,600
Speaker 1: what the administration has claimed and evidence that where we

2548
02:36:25,680 --> 02:36:28,959
Speaker 1: to continue to press with the open fighting part of

2549
02:36:28,959 --> 02:36:33,320
Speaker 1: this conflict, it would be years probably before you're talking

2550
02:36:33,400 --> 02:36:37,200
Speaker 1: about like a complete degradation of Iranian fighting capability if

2551
02:36:37,200 --> 02:36:41,000
Speaker 1: that was ever achieved, Like when you factor in the

2552
02:36:41,120 --> 02:36:44,039
Speaker 1: United States would continue to suffer casualties, and we've already

2553
02:36:44,040 --> 02:36:48,480
Speaker 1: been losing more of, you know, particularly our interceptor missile

2554
02:36:48,520 --> 02:36:51,000
Speaker 1: capability and a number of advanced systems like a wax,

2555
02:36:51,200 --> 02:36:53,160
Speaker 1: then we can afford to replace James.

2556
02:36:53,760 --> 02:36:55,640
Speaker 10: Yeah, so I want to talk a little bit about

2557
02:36:55,720 --> 02:36:59,720
Speaker 10: the cease fire itself, right, and then like what's been

2558
02:36:59,760 --> 02:37:02,520
Speaker 10: happening there. Let's start with, like I guess straight off,

2559
02:37:02,480 --> 02:37:05,800
Speaker 10: horn moves updates and then get into the CISFAR. The

2560
02:37:05,959 --> 02:37:11,680
Speaker 10: Navy intercepted an Iranian vessel in the Arabian Sea this week,

2561
02:37:12,160 --> 02:37:16,800
Speaker 10: close to the Iran Pakistan border. The Tuska was warned.

2562
02:37:17,200 --> 02:37:19,600
Speaker 10: Imagine they use an l rad to warn it. People

2563
02:37:19,600 --> 02:37:21,680
Speaker 10: see l rads on ships sometimes I think they're coming

2564
02:37:21,680 --> 02:37:23,600
Speaker 10: to like make you deaf. That's one of the reasons

2565
02:37:23,640 --> 02:37:25,600
Speaker 10: of ships have lrads. They could have also used the

2566
02:37:25,680 --> 02:37:27,400
Speaker 10: radio that if they can talk to them on the

2567
02:37:27,480 --> 02:37:30,840
Speaker 10: radio of their receiving communications with the radio. They then

2568
02:37:30,959 --> 02:37:35,000
Speaker 10: ordered it to evacuate its engine room. They then shot

2569
02:37:35,040 --> 02:37:37,760
Speaker 10: out its engine with the five inch gun.

2570
02:37:38,240 --> 02:37:40,560
Speaker 9: First time they've gotten to do that in forty years.

2571
02:37:40,640 --> 02:37:42,520
Speaker 10: Yeah, I was looking at it. I guess it was

2572
02:37:42,959 --> 02:37:45,520
Speaker 10: it was since what nineteen eighty eight, the last time

2573
02:37:45,560 --> 02:37:48,240
Speaker 10: that I was thinking it's It's been a lot. It's

2574
02:37:48,240 --> 02:37:50,480
Speaker 10: been a minute since the ship engaged inner the ship

2575
02:37:50,480 --> 02:37:53,560
Speaker 10: with its main gun. It was a USS Spruance, it

2576
02:37:53,640 --> 02:37:57,160
Speaker 10: guided missile destroyer that did that. Subsequently, US marines on

2577
02:37:57,200 --> 02:38:00,640
Speaker 10: the Tripoli we were posted on when the Tripoli first

2578
02:38:01,400 --> 02:38:02,560
Speaker 10: move towards that region.

2579
02:38:02,680 --> 02:38:02,840
Speaker 6: Right.

2580
02:38:03,080 --> 02:38:05,600
Speaker 10: We specifically said that this is one of the capacities

2581
02:38:05,600 --> 02:38:09,560
Speaker 10: that it had they boarded the ship, so they transferred

2582
02:38:09,640 --> 02:38:12,320
Speaker 10: a helicopter and then boarded the ship. The US has

2583
02:38:12,400 --> 02:38:16,400
Speaker 10: since inspected other ships, including outside of the Saint Comeo.

2584
02:38:16,879 --> 02:38:21,320
Speaker 10: So the US perceives its blockade to be global right

2585
02:38:21,600 --> 02:38:26,920
Speaker 10: of Iranian assets, of Iranian vessels and the quote unquote

2586
02:38:27,040 --> 02:38:29,680
Speaker 10: shadow fleet, which you've already explained on ED, so I'm

2587
02:38:29,680 --> 02:38:31,920
Speaker 10: not going to go into depth on what that means.

2588
02:38:32,280 --> 02:38:35,520
Speaker 10: The IOGC also fired at several vessels in the street.

2589
02:38:36,360 --> 02:38:39,760
Speaker 10: There is some reporting that one of them, an Indian tanker,

2590
02:38:40,120 --> 02:38:43,560
Speaker 10: had paid a fee in cryptocurrency to what turned out

2591
02:38:43,600 --> 02:38:46,600
Speaker 10: to be a scammer. I am certain that these scams

2592
02:38:46,640 --> 02:38:50,600
Speaker 10: exist because there have been multiple warnings of them. I

2593
02:38:50,879 --> 02:38:55,240
Speaker 10: haven't seen any evidence that is satisfactory enough for me

2594
02:38:55,400 --> 02:38:59,120
Speaker 10: to be confident that that particular ship had been scammed.

2595
02:39:00,120 --> 02:39:02,440
Speaker 10: The most compelling piece of evidence. A ship is called

2596
02:39:02,480 --> 02:39:06,360
Speaker 10: the San Mar Herald. Is this audio that we're going

2597
02:39:06,360 --> 02:39:07,080
Speaker 10: to play right here?

2598
02:39:07,720 --> 02:39:11,520
Speaker 4: If my navy sefi naby, is this modeling a san Mada?

2599
02:39:11,720 --> 02:39:12,960
Speaker 6: You give me Clarence to go?

2600
02:39:13,640 --> 02:39:15,600
Speaker 4: My name second on your list.

2601
02:39:16,360 --> 02:39:17,520
Speaker 3: You get me Clarence to go.

2602
02:39:17,680 --> 02:39:20,760
Speaker 10: You are fighting now, let me turn back, just to

2603
02:39:20,840 --> 02:39:22,800
Speaker 10: guess I wasn't clear. You gave me clearance to go.

2604
02:39:23,000 --> 02:39:25,920
Speaker 10: You're firing now, let me turn back. So it does

2605
02:39:26,040 --> 02:39:29,360
Speaker 10: seem that that vessel believe that it had clearance to

2606
02:39:29,440 --> 02:39:32,840
Speaker 10: go and was sent fire upon this morning. There was

2607
02:39:32,920 --> 02:39:37,280
Speaker 10: some ocynth pictures of IIGC and they looked like kind

2608
02:39:37,280 --> 02:39:39,160
Speaker 10: of fast attack boats kind of things. Throughout what was

2609
02:39:39,160 --> 02:39:42,240
Speaker 10: talking about in the straight up horn mus Yeah, something

2610
02:39:42,360 --> 02:39:47,920
Speaker 10: of a flex Yay, we still have a navy like yeah, yeah, yeah.

2611
02:39:48,400 --> 02:39:50,160
Speaker 10: I think that's important in the context of the ceasefire.

2612
02:39:50,200 --> 02:39:52,320
Speaker 10: I want to explain very briefly, there's been a lot

2613
02:39:52,320 --> 02:39:55,600
Speaker 10: of contradictory reporting on when, where, and how negotiations are

2614
02:39:55,600 --> 02:39:57,840
Speaker 10: going to happen. It cease fire was set to expire

2615
02:39:57,879 --> 02:40:01,240
Speaker 10: the day we're recording Wednesday. On Tuesday, we saw Donald

2616
02:40:01,280 --> 02:40:05,240
Speaker 10: Trump laterally extend the ceasefire by truthing quote based on

2617
02:40:05,320 --> 02:40:07,600
Speaker 10: the fact that the government of Iran is seriously fractured,

2618
02:40:07,800 --> 02:40:11,760
Speaker 10: not unexpectedly so, and upon the request of Field Marshal

2619
02:40:12,040 --> 02:40:16,200
Speaker 10: Simonia and Prime Minister Shabaz Sharif of Pakistan, we have

2620
02:40:16,360 --> 02:40:18,360
Speaker 10: been asked to hold our attack on the country of

2621
02:40:18,400 --> 02:40:21,039
Speaker 10: Iran until such time as their leaders and representatives can

2622
02:40:21,080 --> 02:40:24,119
Speaker 10: come up with a unified proposal. I have therefore directed

2623
02:40:24,120 --> 02:40:27,080
Speaker 10: our military to continue the blockade and in all other

2624
02:40:27,280 --> 02:40:30,360
Speaker 10: respects remain ready and able, and will therefore extend the

2625
02:40:30,400 --> 02:40:33,160
Speaker 10: cease fire until such time as their proposal hast submitted

2626
02:40:33,160 --> 02:40:36,560
Speaker 10: and discussions are concluded one way or the other. President

2627
02:40:36,600 --> 02:40:39,720
Speaker 10: Donald J. Trump, the consensus seems to me that this

2628
02:40:39,840 --> 02:40:43,000
Speaker 10: is not like an infinite extension. This is like maybe

2629
02:40:43,080 --> 02:40:46,840
Speaker 10: less than a week for Iran to either comply with

2630
02:40:47,040 --> 02:40:50,680
Speaker 10: US terms or submit proposals in the US considers acceptable.

2631
02:40:51,400 --> 02:40:53,160
Speaker 10: A lot of that reporting does seem to come from

2632
02:40:53,160 --> 02:40:56,200
Speaker 10: Barack Revied, who's not really good at journalism, so take

2633
02:40:56,240 --> 02:40:59,320
Speaker 10: it with the pinch of salt. Trump, though, is correct

2634
02:40:59,760 --> 02:41:03,240
Speaker 10: that the state of Iran is on a unified entity,

2635
02:41:03,840 --> 02:41:06,520
Speaker 10: and I covered this in the piece I did last

2636
02:41:06,600 --> 02:41:08,600
Speaker 10: week on an update on the Iran war, Right, Like,

2637
02:41:09,520 --> 02:41:12,760
Speaker 10: I think there's a tendency from people in the global

2638
02:41:12,840 --> 02:41:14,560
Speaker 10: North to look at a state and see it as

2639
02:41:14,600 --> 02:41:17,360
Speaker 10: like a pyramid. Right, you have the head of state,

2640
02:41:17,720 --> 02:41:20,439
Speaker 10: and then you have government, and then you have legislature,

2641
02:41:20,440 --> 02:41:22,359
Speaker 10: and then you have the people they commanded, right, military

2642
02:41:22,600 --> 02:41:26,680
Speaker 10: and all the civil bureaucracy. That's not quite how Iran works.

2643
02:41:27,360 --> 02:41:30,240
Speaker 10: And I went into more detail in that episode that

2644
02:41:30,280 --> 02:41:31,800
Speaker 10: I made, so I'm not going to go into it here,

2645
02:41:32,800 --> 02:41:36,480
Speaker 10: but there are a series of overlapping but not entirely

2646
02:41:36,600 --> 02:41:41,240
Speaker 10: aligned power centers within Iran and within its military capacity,

2647
02:41:41,360 --> 02:41:44,440
Speaker 10: both within its military and the traditional sense, and within

2648
02:41:44,520 --> 02:41:48,320
Speaker 10: the IIGC. Why this is relevant to the negotiations is

2649
02:41:48,360 --> 02:41:50,800
Speaker 10: it it's not possible for politicians to negotiate if they

2650
02:41:50,840 --> 02:41:54,600
Speaker 10: do not believe that they can agree to terms and

2651
02:41:54,800 --> 02:41:57,520
Speaker 10: that their military will then comply with those terms.

2652
02:41:58,160 --> 02:41:58,280
Speaker 6: Right.

2653
02:41:58,720 --> 02:42:01,960
Speaker 10: If the Iranian Foreign Ministry agrees with the US to

2654
02:42:02,000 --> 02:42:04,440
Speaker 10: do something, the IGC doesn't do it, that then immediately

2655
02:42:04,560 --> 02:42:06,480
Speaker 10: undermines any further negotiations.

2656
02:42:06,560 --> 02:42:06,680
Speaker 6: Right.

2657
02:42:07,120 --> 02:42:10,000
Speaker 10: So when we see, for instance, this morning, a large

2658
02:42:10,040 --> 02:42:13,199
Speaker 10: number of boats going into straight upform news that looks

2659
02:42:13,240 --> 02:42:15,960
Speaker 10: a little bit like a flex right, in the context

2660
02:42:16,040 --> 02:42:18,760
Speaker 10: of this power struggle, in the context of Trump acknowledging

2661
02:42:19,360 --> 02:42:23,879
Speaker 10: that Trump has once again been truthing this week about

2662
02:42:24,879 --> 02:42:27,840
Speaker 10: Iranian nuclear weapons. I'm just going to read one of

2663
02:42:27,920 --> 02:42:31,360
Speaker 10: his truths because I think it contained. It shows that

2664
02:42:31,440 --> 02:42:35,320
Speaker 10: the administration feels that it is weak on this particular accusation.

2665
02:42:36,600 --> 02:42:39,720
Speaker 10: Israel never took me into the war with Iran. The

2666
02:42:39,800 --> 02:42:42,600
Speaker 10: results of October seventh added to my lifelong opinion that

2667
02:42:42,680 --> 02:42:46,800
Speaker 10: Iran can never have a nuclear weapon. Did Yeah, I

2668
02:42:46,840 --> 02:42:48,200
Speaker 10: don't know what's going on with that sentence.

2669
02:42:48,879 --> 02:42:51,680
Speaker 4: That's just that's that's Iran can never have a nuclear

2670
02:42:51,720 --> 02:42:54,879
Speaker 4: weapon in karmadd did the word did?

2671
02:42:55,240 --> 02:42:55,440
Speaker 6: Yeah?

2672
02:42:56,240 --> 02:42:58,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, I'm not reading that wrong. Yes, just it's to

2673
02:42:58,879 --> 02:42:59,959
Speaker 10: hang out just what it said.

2674
02:43:00,320 --> 02:43:02,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's simply senile.

2675
02:43:02,600 --> 02:43:05,200
Speaker 10: I can't help you. I'm just saying the words. I

2676
02:43:05,280 --> 02:43:07,640
Speaker 10: watch it and read the fake news pundits and polls

2677
02:43:07,720 --> 02:43:10,840
Speaker 10: in total disbelief. Ninety percent of what they say are

2678
02:43:10,920 --> 02:43:13,480
Speaker 10: lies and made up stories, and the polls are rigged,

2679
02:43:13,920 --> 02:43:16,560
Speaker 10: much as a twenty to twenty presidential election was rigged,

2680
02:43:16,760 --> 02:43:19,280
Speaker 10: just like the results in Venezuela, which the media doesn't

2681
02:43:19,360 --> 02:43:22,120
Speaker 10: like talking about the results in Iran. Will be amazing

2682
02:43:22,920 --> 02:43:26,600
Speaker 10: and if arounds new leaders, regime chains, exclamation mark clothes,

2683
02:43:26,800 --> 02:43:31,440
Speaker 10: parentheses are smart, Iran can have a great and prosperous future.

2684
02:43:31,760 --> 02:43:35,400
Speaker 10: President DJT. That's one of the more challenging passages of

2685
02:43:35,440 --> 02:43:40,080
Speaker 10: English language texts that I've ever approached. I speak four

2686
02:43:40,200 --> 02:43:43,520
Speaker 10: or five languages, and that's that's speak set me back,

2687
02:43:43,959 --> 02:43:46,039
Speaker 10: But I've tried to give you a good faith reading

2688
02:43:46,120 --> 02:43:51,560
Speaker 10: of it. He's clearly sensitive to the allegation that Israel

2689
02:43:52,080 --> 02:43:53,560
Speaker 10: pushed the US into this conflict.

2690
02:43:53,640 --> 02:43:55,400
Speaker 4: Rant He's clearly sensitive.

2691
02:43:57,640 --> 02:44:00,720
Speaker 10: The last thing that I want to add is that

2692
02:44:00,879 --> 02:44:05,440
Speaker 10: strikes on Kurdish groups have continued despite the ceasefire, right

2693
02:44:05,520 --> 02:44:11,240
Speaker 10: despite the renewed ceasefire the PAK. Just two hours after

2694
02:44:11,280 --> 02:44:15,280
Speaker 10: Trump announced the extension of the ceasefire, Tehran sent four

2695
02:44:15,480 --> 02:44:19,160
Speaker 10: drones to attack a PAK base. There have been more

2696
02:44:19,240 --> 02:44:24,320
Speaker 10: injuries in Kurdistan. It doesn't seem that Iran considers any

2697
02:44:24,440 --> 02:44:27,640
Speaker 10: ceasefire to apply to its ongoing attack against the Deutroy

2698
02:44:27,680 --> 02:44:30,520
Speaker 10: Dulati groups who are currently in southern Kurdistan inside the

2699
02:44:30,560 --> 02:44:31,240
Speaker 10: borders of Iraq.

2700
02:44:32,240 --> 02:44:35,440
Speaker 4: Next up, we will discuss the charges against the SPLC,

2701
02:44:35,840 --> 02:44:50,880
Speaker 4: But first listen to these acts. Okay, we are back.

2702
02:44:52,280 --> 02:44:56,279
Speaker 4: On Tuesday, April twenty, first Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche

2703
02:44:56,360 --> 02:44:59,680
Speaker 4: and FBI Director Cash Battel announced that a grand jury

2704
02:45:00,000 --> 02:45:04,160
Speaker 4: indited the Southern Poverty Law Center on eleven counts, including

2705
02:45:04,280 --> 02:45:07,160
Speaker 4: wire fraud, false statements to a federally insured bank, and

2706
02:45:07,280 --> 02:45:11,800
Speaker 4: conspiracy to commit to concealment money laundering. The indictment argues

2707
02:45:11,840 --> 02:45:15,199
Speaker 4: that the SPLC defrauded their donors by using donation money

2708
02:45:15,600 --> 02:45:20,640
Speaker 4: to pay confidential informants within white supremacist or neo Nazi organizations.

2709
02:45:21,600 --> 02:45:23,880
Speaker 4: Here is a short clip of the press conference of

2710
02:45:23,959 --> 02:45:27,840
Speaker 4: a reporter asking Todd Blanche a question, I just want

2711
02:45:27,840 --> 02:45:28,240
Speaker 4: to make sure.

2712
02:45:28,120 --> 02:45:31,840
Speaker 16: I understand you're alleging that the Southern Poverty Law Center

2713
02:45:32,400 --> 02:45:37,880
Speaker 16: was paying the leaders of KKK and other groups to continue.

2714
02:45:38,959 --> 02:45:39,800
Speaker 6: Their operations.

2715
02:45:39,920 --> 02:45:42,200
Speaker 18: Is that I'm not alleging it. The grandeury return and

2716
02:45:42,280 --> 02:45:46,320
Speaker 18: indictment that says that. And so what the investigation found,

2717
02:45:46,360 --> 02:45:49,640
Speaker 18: according to the indictment that was returned today, is that

2718
02:45:49,720 --> 02:45:52,600
Speaker 18: they were paying. So the Southern Poverty Law Center is

2719
02:45:52,720 --> 02:45:56,800
Speaker 18: raising money, asking folks to give them money to dismount racism,

2720
02:45:57,040 --> 02:45:59,879
Speaker 18: and over a very long period of time, they were

2721
02:46:00,080 --> 02:46:02,240
Speaker 18: using some of the money they raised from donors to

2722
02:46:02,720 --> 02:46:06,120
Speaker 18: pay to they call them feel you know, basically to

2723
02:46:06,520 --> 02:46:12,200
Speaker 18: informants for information, for access, to just pay them for

2724
02:46:13,400 --> 02:46:16,840
Speaker 18: certain to do certain things. And so yes, that's exactly

2725
02:46:16,879 --> 02:46:17,879
Speaker 18: what the indictment charges.

2726
02:46:18,920 --> 02:46:22,800
Speaker 4: The SPLC is a nonprofit advocacy organization aimed at quote

2727
02:46:22,840 --> 02:46:27,560
Speaker 4: unquote dismantling white supremacy and exposing hate. They operate a

2728
02:46:27,600 --> 02:46:30,200
Speaker 4: blog called hate Watch and run a public database of

2729
02:46:30,240 --> 02:46:34,280
Speaker 4: hate groups and far right extremists. This indictment claims that

2730
02:46:34,360 --> 02:46:37,960
Speaker 4: the SPLC has utilized informants to gained information on far

2731
02:46:38,080 --> 02:46:42,200
Speaker 4: right activity since the eighties, but between twenty fourteen and

2732
02:46:42,360 --> 02:46:46,560
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, the SPLC secretly paid over three million

2733
02:46:46,680 --> 02:46:50,879
Speaker 4: dollars to individuals associated with various violent extriist groups quote

2734
02:46:50,920 --> 02:46:53,400
Speaker 4: unquote in a clandestine manner.

2735
02:46:54,440 --> 02:46:54,680
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2736
02:46:55,120 --> 02:46:57,240
Speaker 1: No, one, if you kind of have been in the

2737
02:46:57,680 --> 02:47:02,960
Speaker 1: world of CVE counting violent extremism like research or like

2738
02:47:03,480 --> 02:47:07,640
Speaker 1: involved in NGOs in that sphere at all, or a

2739
02:47:07,720 --> 02:47:10,560
Speaker 1: been a researcher there, you're probably aware of the fact

2740
02:47:10,560 --> 02:47:13,600
Speaker 1: that the SPLC, like has been paying informants. A lot

2741
02:47:13,640 --> 02:47:17,279
Speaker 1: of their scoops are because some Nazi tells on another

2742
02:47:17,480 --> 02:47:22,520
Speaker 1: Nazi essentially right yeah, so that part isn't surprising. The

2743
02:47:22,680 --> 02:47:25,560
Speaker 1: weirdness is how the SPLC was going about it and

2744
02:47:25,720 --> 02:47:28,039
Speaker 1: how much fucking money they were giving some of these

2745
02:47:28,280 --> 02:47:31,000
Speaker 1: The amounts of some of these is yeah, it was

2746
02:47:31,280 --> 02:47:34,000
Speaker 1: legitimately shocking, and I do want to get into some

2747
02:47:34,040 --> 02:47:36,120
Speaker 1: more details about those amounts in the groups and the

2748
02:47:36,280 --> 02:47:41,880
Speaker 1: sort of nest of fake businesses the SPLC used to distribute.

2749
02:47:41,320 --> 02:47:45,000
Speaker 4: This money, according to the indictment. The indictment reads that

2750
02:47:45,160 --> 02:47:49,240
Speaker 4: this was donation money quote received under the auspice that

2751
02:47:49,440 --> 02:47:51,959
Speaker 4: the funds would be used to quote unquote dismantle violent

2752
02:47:52,000 --> 02:47:54,840
Speaker 4: ex rivist groups. This money was instead being used in

2753
02:47:54,959 --> 02:47:58,400
Speaker 4: part by the SPLC to pay leaders and others within

2754
02:47:58,680 --> 02:48:01,920
Speaker 4: these same violenctricy humis groups. That money was then used

2755
02:48:01,959 --> 02:48:04,640
Speaker 4: for the benefit of the individuals as well as the

2756
02:48:04,760 --> 02:48:09,400
Speaker 4: violent extremist groups unquote. Money was funneled to individuals associated

2757
02:48:09,400 --> 02:48:12,440
Speaker 4: with violent extreamist groups, including the klu Klux Klan, the

2758
02:48:12,560 --> 02:48:16,840
Speaker 4: United Clans of America, Unite the Right National Alliance, National

2759
02:48:16,920 --> 02:48:21,800
Speaker 4: Socialist Movement, Aryan Nations, and the affiliated Sadistic Soul's Motorcycle Club,

2760
02:48:22,320 --> 02:48:27,240
Speaker 4: National Socialist Party of America, American Nazi Party, and American Front.

2761
02:48:28,040 --> 02:48:31,760
Speaker 4: One informant, according to the indictment, was quote a member

2762
02:48:31,879 --> 02:48:35,959
Speaker 4: of the online leadership chat group that planned the twenty

2763
02:48:36,080 --> 02:48:40,240
Speaker 4: seventeen Unite the Right event in Charlottesville, Virginia, and attended

2764
02:48:40,280 --> 02:48:44,279
Speaker 4: the event at the direction of the SPLC. This informant

2765
02:48:44,360 --> 02:48:47,520
Speaker 4: made racist postings under the supervision of the SPLC and

2766
02:48:47,640 --> 02:48:52,200
Speaker 4: helped coordinate transportation to the event for several attendees. Between

2767
02:48:52,200 --> 02:48:54,920
Speaker 4: twenty fifteen and twenty twenty three, the SPLC secretly paid

2768
02:48:54,959 --> 02:48:58,560
Speaker 4: this informant more than two hundred and seventy thousand dollars

2769
02:49:00,200 --> 02:49:02,680
Speaker 4: from twenty fourteen to twenty twenty three. More than one

2770
02:49:02,760 --> 02:49:05,640
Speaker 4: million dollars was allegedly paid to someone affiliated with the

2771
02:49:05,760 --> 02:49:09,119
Speaker 4: National Alliance who served as an informant for over twenty

2772
02:49:09,200 --> 02:49:13,920
Speaker 4: years while fundraising for this Nazi group. The Imperial Wizard

2773
02:49:14,080 --> 02:49:17,959
Speaker 4: of the Rebooted Imperial Clans of America was a paid

2774
02:49:18,000 --> 02:49:20,760
Speaker 4: informant according to the indictment. This is likely a guy

2775
02:49:20,840 --> 02:49:25,480
Speaker 4: named Bradley Jenkins, an officer in the National Socialist Movement

2776
02:49:25,640 --> 02:49:29,920
Speaker 4: and the Aryan Nations affiliated Sadistic Souls Motorcycle Club, secretly

2777
02:49:30,120 --> 02:49:33,359
Speaker 4: received more than three hundred thousand dollars between twenty fourteen

2778
02:49:33,440 --> 02:49:36,600
Speaker 4: and twenty twenty, the former chairman of the National Alliance

2779
02:49:36,680 --> 02:49:38,880
Speaker 4: was secretly paid more than one hundred and forty thousand dollars,

2780
02:49:39,480 --> 02:49:43,680
Speaker 4: while the SPLC website featured an extremist profile page for

2781
02:49:44,040 --> 02:49:48,280
Speaker 4: this individual, likely Eric Glebe. The SPLC also paid the

2782
02:49:48,320 --> 02:49:51,640
Speaker 4: leader of the National Socialist Party of America seventy thousand

2783
02:49:51,680 --> 02:49:55,480
Speaker 4: dollars between twenty fourteen to twenty sixteen. This individual was

2784
02:49:55,520 --> 02:49:58,600
Speaker 4: a former director of an Aryan Nations faction and a

2785
02:49:58,720 --> 02:50:01,440
Speaker 4: former member of the CAKE. This is likely a guy

2786
02:50:01,520 --> 02:50:05,760
Speaker 4: named Paul Mullett, who the SBLC hosts an extremist file

2787
02:50:05,840 --> 02:50:10,400
Speaker 4: web page on their website. A few other unidentified informants

2788
02:50:10,440 --> 02:50:12,880
Speaker 4: are listed in the indictment, as well as a claim

2789
02:50:13,040 --> 02:50:15,720
Speaker 4: that the SBLC funneled more than one hundred and sixty

2790
02:50:15,800 --> 02:50:19,320
Speaker 4: thousand dollars from a fictitious entity to an informant quote,

2791
02:50:19,720 --> 02:50:23,400
Speaker 4: who then sent funds to various violent extremist group leaders,

2792
02:50:23,800 --> 02:50:26,760
Speaker 4: including the former Grand Wizard of the Knights of the

2793
02:50:26,840 --> 02:50:30,000
Speaker 4: klu Klux Klan unquote. That's a lot of money.

2794
02:50:30,760 --> 02:50:30,880
Speaker 6: Now.

2795
02:50:30,959 --> 02:50:34,000
Speaker 4: To obscure the nature of these payments, the SBLC opened

2796
02:50:34,000 --> 02:50:38,039
Speaker 4: a series of bank accounts at multiple banks for various

2797
02:50:38,320 --> 02:50:42,640
Speaker 4: fictitious businesses. These weren't actually incorporated, but they claimed to

2798
02:50:42,720 --> 02:50:47,840
Speaker 4: be businesses with names like The Center Investigative Agency or

2799
02:50:47,920 --> 02:50:56,320
Speaker 4: the CIA, Why Yeah, Fox Photography, Northwest Technologies, Tech Writers Group,

2800
02:50:56,560 --> 02:51:02,279
Speaker 4: Rare Books, Warehouse Imagery, Inc. Ja JA Electronics, Kelly's Marine,

2801
02:51:02,680 --> 02:51:04,680
Speaker 4: and Turner Personnel.

2802
02:51:04,400 --> 02:51:05,960
Speaker 9: Great Good Work Guys.

2803
02:51:07,080 --> 02:51:11,160
Speaker 4: Essentially, the DOJ is arguing that the SBLC solicited donations

2804
02:51:11,320 --> 02:51:15,600
Speaker 4: under false pretenses and then transferred that money to extremist

2805
02:51:15,680 --> 02:51:19,520
Speaker 4: groups using a network of fake businesses. To get a conviction,

2806
02:51:19,760 --> 02:51:23,400
Speaker 4: the dog will have to argue that this activity constitutes wirefraud,

2807
02:51:23,680 --> 02:51:26,680
Speaker 4: false statements to a federally insured bank, and conspiracy to

2808
02:51:26,680 --> 02:51:30,600
Speaker 4: commit concealment money laundering. A conviction will result in the

2809
02:51:30,640 --> 02:51:35,320
Speaker 4: forfeiture of financial gains from the alleged illegal activities. The

2810
02:51:35,480 --> 02:51:39,440
Speaker 4: right has reacted to this news by calling the Unite

2811
02:51:39,480 --> 02:51:42,440
Speaker 4: the Right rally and kind of the alt right movement

2812
02:51:42,680 --> 02:51:46,280
Speaker 4: as it existed from this time period a syop or

2813
02:51:46,400 --> 02:51:50,560
Speaker 4: a false flag. Senator Mike Lee, right wing political influencer

2814
02:51:50,720 --> 02:51:54,160
Speaker 4: Nick Sorter, and Elon Musk have boosted these claims, getting

2815
02:51:54,240 --> 02:51:57,840
Speaker 4: tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands alikes on x

2816
02:51:58,040 --> 02:52:01,840
Speaker 4: Everything app This seems to be a narrative. It's not

2817
02:52:01,920 --> 02:52:04,640
Speaker 4: really new, I guess, but an enhanced narrative that is

2818
02:52:04,680 --> 02:52:08,240
Speaker 4: emerging among the online right as a way to dissuade

2819
02:52:08,320 --> 02:52:11,560
Speaker 4: some of the uglier parts of that era, while still

2820
02:52:11,640 --> 02:52:14,040
Speaker 4: carrying along a lot of the same politics, especially on

2821
02:52:14,240 --> 02:52:16,519
Speaker 4: like the Great Replacement, which is more of a mainstream

2822
02:52:16,560 --> 02:52:20,560
Speaker 4: idea among the conservative movement at this point in time,

2823
02:52:21,280 --> 02:52:24,520
Speaker 4: so they're able to walk away from the uglier kind

2824
02:52:24,520 --> 02:52:27,320
Speaker 4: of imagery and explicitly notz the elements of this like

2825
02:52:27,959 --> 02:52:30,520
Speaker 4: the KKK, which is very boomer very very very Boomer

2826
02:52:30,600 --> 02:52:33,720
Speaker 4: coded k the KKK, so they're able to call stuff

2827
02:52:33,760 --> 02:52:35,800
Speaker 4: like that and the Unite the Right rally of syop

2828
02:52:36,120 --> 02:52:38,880
Speaker 4: or a false flag while still reaping the benefits that

2829
02:52:38,920 --> 02:52:42,160
Speaker 4: the alt right movement achieved by kind of trailblazing certain

2830
02:52:42,240 --> 02:52:46,560
Speaker 4: rhetoric into the conservative mainstream. Right wing commentators have also

2831
02:52:46,680 --> 02:52:49,480
Speaker 4: used this news to reassert one of their favorite claims

2832
02:52:49,560 --> 02:52:55,000
Speaker 4: that Patriot Front is a psyop or a false flag operation,

2833
02:52:55,879 --> 02:52:59,480
Speaker 4: that whenever a group of young Nazis show up in

2834
02:52:59,560 --> 02:53:03,480
Speaker 4: a u all all wearing matching outfits and masks, that

2835
02:53:03,600 --> 02:53:06,760
Speaker 4: this is a staged event by either the deep State,

2836
02:53:06,879 --> 02:53:10,080
Speaker 4: the FEDS, or a group like the SPLC. Patriot Front

2837
02:53:10,120 --> 02:53:12,600
Speaker 4: is not actually named in this indictment. There's no evidence

2838
02:53:12,680 --> 02:53:16,680
Speaker 4: that the SPLC was paying anyone at Patriot Front to

2839
02:53:16,840 --> 02:53:20,560
Speaker 4: inform on the operations of that group, and obviously paying

2840
02:53:20,640 --> 02:53:25,560
Speaker 4: an individual to inform on the details of an upcoming

2841
02:53:25,760 --> 02:53:28,800
Speaker 4: event like Unite the Right does not mean that the

2842
02:53:28,959 --> 02:53:33,359
Speaker 4: Unite the Right event in Charlottesville was planned or staged

2843
02:53:33,480 --> 02:53:37,480
Speaker 4: by the SPLC. Dozens of people were involved in the

2844
02:53:37,560 --> 02:53:42,120
Speaker 4: planning of this event, and hundreds participated of their own volition.

2845
02:53:42,760 --> 02:53:46,080
Speaker 4: One person in a planning group chat sending info to

2846
02:53:46,120 --> 02:53:50,279
Speaker 4: the SPLC does not mean that this action was staged

2847
02:53:50,440 --> 02:53:51,080
Speaker 4: or fake.

2848
02:53:52,000 --> 02:53:54,560
Speaker 1: Anyone who's in the field has that a lot of

2849
02:53:54,920 --> 02:53:57,440
Speaker 1: issues with the SPLC over the last few years, especially

2850
02:53:57,440 --> 02:53:58,800
Speaker 1: people who work for them. I have a lot of

2851
02:53:59,040 --> 02:54:01,080
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people have worked for them

2852
02:54:01,120 --> 02:54:02,720
Speaker 1: and gotten fucked over by them. They did a lot

2853
02:54:02,760 --> 02:54:06,400
Speaker 1: of union busting too. The people who run the SPLC,

2854
02:54:06,760 --> 02:54:09,000
Speaker 1: and some of whom are the people who are specifically

2855
02:54:09,080 --> 02:54:12,840
Speaker 1: accused of having committed these crimes. I don't know if

2856
02:54:12,920 --> 02:54:16,440
Speaker 1: I feel like that like the specific things they have

2857
02:54:16,600 --> 02:54:19,840
Speaker 1: to prove in order to date a conviction are accurate

2858
02:54:19,920 --> 02:54:23,520
Speaker 1: because fundamentally, anyone who donated to the SPLC knew that

2859
02:54:23,600 --> 02:54:26,920
Speaker 1: they were like getting shipped from informants. You know, like,

2860
02:54:27,080 --> 02:54:29,160
Speaker 1: I don't think that was like the amount of money though,

2861
02:54:29,280 --> 02:54:29,800
Speaker 1: is shocking.

2862
02:54:30,240 --> 02:54:31,840
Speaker 4: That's what the That's what they're gonna have to defend

2863
02:54:31,879 --> 02:54:34,000
Speaker 4: in court. Yeah, they're gonna have to hard and have

2864
02:54:34,040 --> 02:54:38,039
Speaker 4: to argue that the money that was donated was used

2865
02:54:38,120 --> 02:54:40,959
Speaker 4: for its intended purpose, which was dismantling whit's premisies. You'll

2866
02:54:40,959 --> 02:54:43,720
Speaker 4: have to say that the information that they obtained through

2867
02:54:43,879 --> 02:54:47,480
Speaker 4: these through through paying these informants, was still in furtherance

2868
02:54:47,520 --> 02:54:49,160
Speaker 4: of that mission. Right, That's going to be what they're

2869
02:54:49,200 --> 02:54:50,080
Speaker 4: going to defend in court.

2870
02:54:50,240 --> 02:54:50,360
Speaker 15: Now.

2871
02:54:50,640 --> 02:54:54,400
Speaker 4: You know, obviously the FBI also uses information, sure, right,

2872
02:54:54,440 --> 02:54:57,480
Speaker 4: the FBI does this same thing. Famously, the FBI paid

2873
02:54:57,520 --> 02:55:00,720
Speaker 4: the OH nine A affiliated Joshua Caleb Sutter over one

2874
02:55:00,840 --> 02:55:03,800
Speaker 4: hundred and forty thousand dollars from twenty three to twenty

2875
02:55:03,840 --> 02:55:08,680
Speaker 4: twenty one. The FBI funded a publishing house, a neo

2876
02:55:08,760 --> 02:55:13,640
Speaker 4: Nazi publishing house essentially yeah yeah, yeah, which is responsible for,

2877
02:55:14,560 --> 02:55:17,880
Speaker 4: in part, the political direction of the Adam Off Indivision

2878
02:55:18,040 --> 02:55:20,640
Speaker 4: now at Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche has said that

2879
02:55:20,760 --> 02:55:25,400
Speaker 4: quote the SPLC is manufacturing racism to justify its existence

2880
02:55:25,959 --> 02:55:29,560
Speaker 4: end quote. Using donor money to allegedly profit off klansmen

2881
02:55:29,879 --> 02:55:34,040
Speaker 4: cannot go unchecked. Unquote. Patel has said that quote this

2882
02:55:34,200 --> 02:55:37,160
Speaker 4: is illegal, and this is an ongoing investigation against all

2883
02:55:37,280 --> 02:55:42,320
Speaker 4: individuals involved. The SBLC released a video statement saying that

2884
02:55:42,360 --> 02:55:45,640
Speaker 4: the use of informants was quote unquote necessary and claimed

2885
02:55:45,720 --> 02:55:49,680
Speaker 4: quote these individuals risked their lives to infiltrate and inform

2886
02:55:49,800 --> 02:55:53,160
Speaker 4: on the activities of our nation's most radical and violent

2887
02:55:53,240 --> 02:55:57,400
Speaker 4: extremist groups unquote. The indictment does not characterize many of

2888
02:55:57,440 --> 02:56:01,280
Speaker 4: these informants as quote unquote infiltrators, but rather individuals who

2889
02:56:01,320 --> 02:56:04,200
Speaker 4: were already members of these groups and were paid by

2890
02:56:04,240 --> 02:56:07,840
Speaker 4: the SBLC to share information and gossip on fellow members.

2891
02:56:08,959 --> 02:56:13,200
Speaker 4: The SBLC statement also said that they quote frequently shared

2892
02:56:13,320 --> 02:56:17,439
Speaker 4: what we learned from informants with local and federal law enforcement,

2893
02:56:17,640 --> 02:56:20,959
Speaker 4: including the FBI. We did not, however, share our use

2894
02:56:20,959 --> 02:56:23,520
Speaker 4: of informants broadly with anyone to protect the identity and

2895
02:56:23,600 --> 02:56:27,680
Speaker 4: safety of the informants and their families unquote, like a

2896
02:56:27,720 --> 02:56:29,800
Speaker 4: lot of the people in this field. The FBI knew

2897
02:56:29,800 --> 02:56:30,840
Speaker 4: the SBLC was doing this.

2898
02:56:31,480 --> 02:56:32,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, Yeah.

2899
02:56:32,600 --> 02:56:35,800
Speaker 4: After the assassination of Charlie kirk Cash, Betel announced that

2900
02:56:35,840 --> 02:56:39,000
Speaker 4: the FBI was severing ties with the SBLC, saying the

2901
02:56:39,120 --> 02:56:42,800
Speaker 4: organization had been turned into a quote unquote partisan smear

2902
02:56:42,920 --> 02:56:47,920
Speaker 4: machine that defamed quote unquote mainstream Americans with its hate map.

2903
02:56:48,320 --> 02:56:48,640
Speaker 6: Okay.

2904
02:56:49,760 --> 02:56:54,240
Speaker 4: Attorney Ed Martin, former head of the DOJ's Weaponization Working

2905
02:56:54,320 --> 02:56:58,480
Speaker 4: Group as in weaponizing the dj against political enemies, shared

2906
02:56:58,520 --> 02:57:01,360
Speaker 4: news of the indictment on x everything app and wrote, quote,

2907
02:57:01,840 --> 02:57:07,400
Speaker 4: they killed Charlie and they will pay unquote. So clearly

2908
02:57:07,640 --> 02:57:11,680
Speaker 4: this prosecution is politically motivated. Right There is political motivations

2909
02:57:11,720 --> 02:57:15,080
Speaker 4: behind deciding to do this right now. The FBI already

2910
02:57:15,160 --> 02:57:18,080
Speaker 4: knew that this was happening to a certain extent, but

2911
02:57:18,320 --> 02:57:20,880
Speaker 4: now they are going after the SBLC as a part

2912
02:57:21,000 --> 02:57:26,920
Speaker 4: of a targeted political prosecution, and this indictment could be

2913
02:57:27,120 --> 02:57:32,920
Speaker 4: seen as part of the anti Antifa nonprofit crackdown. Last March,

2914
02:57:33,320 --> 02:57:36,520
Speaker 4: CBS News reported that the FBI and the IRS formed

2915
02:57:36,520 --> 02:57:40,320
Speaker 4: a new initiative to investigate fraud at nonprofit organizations with

2916
02:57:40,520 --> 02:57:44,760
Speaker 4: suspected links to domestic terrorism following federal directives to pursue

2917
02:57:44,800 --> 02:57:49,160
Speaker 4: Antifa aligned groups. A spokesperson from the IRS told CBS

2918
02:57:49,240 --> 02:57:54,280
Speaker 4: News quote, IRS Criminal Investigation is collaborating with federal law

2919
02:57:54,320 --> 02:57:58,640
Speaker 4: enforcement agencies, including the FBI, to investigate individuals and entities

2920
02:57:58,720 --> 02:58:02,880
Speaker 4: that may be funding the domestic terrorism or political violence.

2921
02:58:04,480 --> 02:58:08,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's unfortunate that the SPLC was so reckless

2922
02:58:08,640 --> 02:58:14,000
Speaker 1: and sloppy, and the fucking amounts are shocking and indefensible

2923
02:58:14,080 --> 02:58:17,320
Speaker 1: and again not necessarily in a legal sense. Like I'm

2924
02:58:17,480 --> 02:58:21,640
Speaker 1: very doubtful of the government's case, but I am very

2925
02:58:22,440 --> 02:58:26,360
Speaker 1: angry at the Southern Poverty Law Center, And I don't

2926
02:58:26,520 --> 02:58:29,040
Speaker 1: think it should contend you to exist as an organization,

2927
02:58:30,160 --> 02:58:31,320
Speaker 1: like if it's going to do this.

2928
02:58:32,280 --> 02:58:34,160
Speaker 10: Yeah, and like when you combine this as you say,

2929
02:58:34,280 --> 02:58:37,760
Speaker 10: like anyone who works in this world knows people working

2930
02:58:37,800 --> 02:58:39,680
Speaker 10: there had a mitiable time for a long time, for

2931
02:58:39,760 --> 02:58:41,240
Speaker 10: a great variety of recent time.

2932
02:58:41,560 --> 02:58:42,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm livid at them.

2933
02:58:43,080 --> 02:58:46,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is obviously evidence that the Trump administration is

2934
02:58:46,920 --> 02:58:49,199
Speaker 1: doing what they've said they're doing that, Like the DOJ

2935
02:58:49,560 --> 02:58:52,120
Speaker 1: is going to be looking into these like big you know,

2936
02:58:52,600 --> 02:58:57,240
Speaker 1: liberal and left aligned in goos particularly that like are

2937
02:58:57,280 --> 02:58:59,720
Speaker 1: focused on combating the far right, but in terms of

2938
02:58:59,840 --> 02:59:02,600
Speaker 1: this showing any reason to be scared that they're going

2939
02:59:02,680 --> 02:59:06,520
Speaker 1: to disappear people like, no, the SPOC did something crazy,

2940
02:59:07,040 --> 02:59:11,480
Speaker 1: and I don't think that the charges specifically are valid,

2941
02:59:11,640 --> 02:59:14,720
Speaker 1: but like they open themselves up to get fucked with

2942
02:59:14,959 --> 02:59:17,240
Speaker 1: by doing something so not like give one of these

2943
02:59:17,240 --> 02:59:22,440
Speaker 1: people a million dollars a million dollars, Yeah, that's wild.

2944
02:59:23,240 --> 02:59:26,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, why do they have a fake company named after

2945
02:59:26,120 --> 02:59:26,760
Speaker 4: the CIA?

2946
02:59:26,920 --> 02:59:28,039
Speaker 9: What are you guys doing?

2947
02:59:28,520 --> 02:59:32,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, someone thought they were being a really cool secret spy.

2948
02:59:32,800 --> 02:59:34,680
Speaker 4: And I mean those are some of the charges that

2949
02:59:34,800 --> 02:59:36,520
Speaker 4: may be able to stick. Is the sort of stuff

2950
02:59:36,520 --> 02:59:39,680
Speaker 4: about misrepresenting yeah to a federally insured bank that that

2951
02:59:39,840 --> 02:59:41,760
Speaker 4: type of stuff could be easier to argue based on

2952
02:59:41,879 --> 02:59:45,080
Speaker 4: what I've read in the indictment, but of course that'll

2953
02:59:45,120 --> 02:59:46,039
Speaker 4: get settled in court.

2954
02:59:46,200 --> 02:59:48,960
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah. And as a way to sort of

2955
02:59:49,040 --> 02:59:50,720
Speaker 2: close this out, I think one of the things that

2956
02:59:50,720 --> 02:59:53,520
Speaker 2: we're running into here is one of the thing that

2957
02:59:53,560 --> 02:59:55,320
Speaker 2: the right is being able to use here is the

2958
02:59:55,400 --> 02:59:57,800
Speaker 2: fact that a lot of these sort of liberal in

2959
02:59:57,920 --> 03:00:00,800
Speaker 2: central left NGOs absolutely sucked and like we have covered

2960
03:00:00,840 --> 03:00:02,879
Speaker 2: on this show, you know, a whole bunch of these

2961
03:00:02,959 --> 03:00:08,320
Speaker 2: organizations do in union busting, and they're like, their priorities

2962
03:00:08,640 --> 03:00:13,240
Speaker 2: don't necessarily match what you know, I would say ours

2963
03:00:13,360 --> 03:00:15,920
Speaker 2: should be. And I think this is something that this

2964
03:00:16,040 --> 03:00:18,560
Speaker 2: administration is going to continue to sort of in some

2965
03:00:18,640 --> 03:00:21,520
Speaker 2: ways use as a rift point, like the fact that

2966
03:00:21,560 --> 03:00:25,000
Speaker 2: these groups are doing all of this in unhinged shit, right,

2967
03:00:26,080 --> 03:00:28,920
Speaker 2: this is this is the political consequence of the structure

2968
03:00:29,000 --> 03:00:31,879
Speaker 2: that these NGOs use in the way that they've operated,

2969
03:00:32,520 --> 03:00:34,960
Speaker 2: and now there's sort of chickens are coming home to roost.

2970
03:00:36,320 --> 03:00:38,440
Speaker 10: I want to talk this week in our immigration segment

2971
03:00:38,520 --> 03:00:42,640
Speaker 10: about the United States Citizenship and Immigration Service. This is

2972
03:00:42,720 --> 03:00:46,760
Speaker 10: the agency task with vetting and adjudicating immigration benefits. It's

2973
03:00:47,600 --> 03:00:51,120
Speaker 10: the only immigration agency at DHS. It traditionally hasn't done

2974
03:00:51,280 --> 03:00:56,720
Speaker 10: enforcement sweeps right, So for a while, particularly recently, people

2975
03:00:56,800 --> 03:00:59,160
Speaker 10: there have felt a little out of place at the

2976
03:00:59,240 --> 03:01:00,600
Speaker 10: Department Home Security.

2977
03:01:00,720 --> 03:01:00,840
Speaker 6: Right.

2978
03:01:01,280 --> 03:01:04,720
Speaker 10: The idea has been keep enforcement and processing separate so

2979
03:01:04,800 --> 03:01:09,200
Speaker 10: that people don't have very reasonable reasons to fear doing

2980
03:01:09,280 --> 03:01:11,680
Speaker 10: the legal process, right, so that people continue to show

2981
03:01:11,800 --> 03:01:16,400
Speaker 10: up to their interviews, to submit their documents, et cetera. Generally,

2982
03:01:16,480 --> 03:01:19,120
Speaker 10: they are funded in a large part by immigration fees

2983
03:01:19,760 --> 03:01:22,720
Speaker 10: and perceived as the friendly and more welcoming side of

2984
03:01:22,760 --> 03:01:26,280
Speaker 10: the process. Their job isn't historically has not been to

2985
03:01:26,400 --> 03:01:30,720
Speaker 10: kind of root out bad migration as so much as

2986
03:01:30,800 --> 03:01:34,360
Speaker 10: to help people, or at least to process people to

2987
03:01:34,440 --> 03:01:39,520
Speaker 10: do the bureaucratic part of migration. Under the second Trump administration, however,

2988
03:01:40,360 --> 03:01:44,280
Speaker 10: this has changed. There have been detentions at interviews, there

2989
03:01:44,320 --> 03:01:48,640
Speaker 10: have been cancelations of citizenships ceremonies. The USAS has begun

2990
03:01:48,800 --> 03:01:50,760
Speaker 10: hiring for a new position, and this new position is

2991
03:01:50,800 --> 03:01:54,320
Speaker 10: eligible for remote work, for more remote work than existing hires,

2992
03:01:55,080 --> 03:01:59,360
Speaker 10: and it's called the Homeland Defender. So like we probably

2993
03:01:59,480 --> 03:02:03,400
Speaker 10: many people have seen these Homeland Defender advertisements on x

2994
03:02:03,480 --> 03:02:06,440
Speaker 10: dot com, the everything website right, Homeland Defenders have been

2995
03:02:06,480 --> 03:02:09,480
Speaker 10: offered up to fifty thousand dollars in signing bonuses, and

2996
03:02:10,440 --> 03:02:13,120
Speaker 10: at the same time as offering remote work benefits for

2997
03:02:13,120 --> 03:02:16,280
Speaker 10: the Homeland Defenders, the agency has been forcing other people

2998
03:02:16,360 --> 03:02:19,120
Speaker 10: to return to offices that could no longer fit the

2999
03:02:19,240 --> 03:02:22,320
Speaker 10: number of staff it had under years of work from home.

3000
03:02:22,440 --> 03:02:25,680
Speaker 10: The agency grew and changed right like almost every organization did,

3001
03:02:26,240 --> 03:02:28,680
Speaker 10: and there were reports that you literally had like lawyers

3002
03:02:28,760 --> 03:02:32,560
Speaker 10: sitting in corridors working on their laptops or like trying

3003
03:02:32,600 --> 03:02:35,320
Speaker 10: to perch on a radiator or a window sill because

3004
03:02:35,400 --> 03:02:37,640
Speaker 10: their offices could fit people. Right, and at the same time,

3005
03:02:38,720 --> 03:02:41,920
Speaker 10: the branding around Homeland Defender is not the way that

3006
03:02:42,120 --> 03:02:47,440
Speaker 10: USCIS staff traditionally saw themselves. In Minnesota, USCAS has begun

3007
03:02:47,520 --> 03:02:51,959
Speaker 10: reinvestigating people admitted with the incredibly highly vetted refugee status.

3008
03:02:52,000 --> 03:02:53,720
Speaker 10: So we already spoke about it once today. Right, the

3009
03:02:53,800 --> 03:02:56,440
Speaker 10: refugees are vetted before they even enter the United States.

3010
03:02:57,480 --> 03:03:01,160
Speaker 10: Across the country, executive orders will followed with memos pausing

3011
03:03:01,320 --> 03:03:04,520
Speaker 10: or entirely stopping the process of legal and veted immigration

3012
03:03:04,959 --> 03:03:08,320
Speaker 10: for people from an increasing number of countries. The legally

3013
03:03:08,480 --> 03:03:12,039
Speaker 10: mandated green cards for adult children and siblings or current sistants,

3014
03:03:12,040 --> 03:03:15,240
Speaker 10: as well as spouses and minor children of existing permanent

3015
03:03:15,320 --> 03:03:22,000
Speaker 10: residents has gone unfulfilled. This is quote unquote family based migration.

3016
03:03:22,480 --> 03:03:25,039
Speaker 10: They used to call it chain migration. Right. That used

3017
03:03:25,040 --> 03:03:27,160
Speaker 10: to be the language on the right. It's something that

3018
03:03:27,280 --> 03:03:30,840
Speaker 10: Trump administration has hated since its first term. Right, this

3019
03:03:30,959 --> 03:03:32,960
Speaker 10: has been a thing that they spoke about and that

3020
03:03:33,040 --> 03:03:35,160
Speaker 10: has been spoken about at the right for some time.

3021
03:03:36,040 --> 03:03:40,280
Speaker 10: These green cards could be reused for employment based claims,

3022
03:03:40,320 --> 03:03:42,160
Speaker 10: which is going to have a much larger number of

3023
03:03:42,200 --> 03:03:44,320
Speaker 10: people who are already in the country. It's not bringing

3024
03:03:44,360 --> 03:03:48,640
Speaker 10: new people in or they might go Unused. Refugees are

3025
03:03:48,720 --> 03:03:52,640
Speaker 10: being detained without any clear legal authority and requizzed about

3026
03:03:52,680 --> 03:03:56,040
Speaker 10: their applications. According to reporting in The New Yorker, this

3027
03:03:56,400 --> 03:04:00,920
Speaker 10: means that people are being taken in meaned at an

3028
03:04:01,000 --> 03:04:05,879
Speaker 10: ice facility right and then quiz about stuff that they'd

3029
03:04:05,879 --> 03:04:07,840
Speaker 10: already been asked about before they came to the United

3030
03:04:07,879 --> 03:04:10,480
Speaker 10: States when they were doing that vetting. People who are

3031
03:04:10,840 --> 03:04:13,920
Speaker 10: married to United States citizens are being arrested at interviews,

3032
03:04:14,320 --> 03:04:16,800
Speaker 10: even though generally there was an amnesty of people who,

3033
03:04:16,840 --> 03:04:19,360
Speaker 10: for instance, had overstate a visa and then got married before.

3034
03:04:20,480 --> 03:04:25,560
Speaker 10: USCIS has also committed significant resources of the agency that

3035
03:04:25,760 --> 03:04:28,600
Speaker 10: may well have been taken away from processing claims and

3036
03:04:28,720 --> 03:04:33,640
Speaker 10: devoted them entirely to investigating naturalizations with the goal of

3037
03:04:33,800 --> 03:04:38,320
Speaker 10: denaturalizing naturalized United States citizens. This is a very difficult

3038
03:04:38,360 --> 03:04:42,240
Speaker 10: process right. The Afreem case is the Supreme Court case

3039
03:04:42,280 --> 03:04:46,040
Speaker 10: which governs this right. It refers to someone who was

3040
03:04:46,080 --> 03:04:49,560
Speaker 10: a Jewish communist or had been in Israel. What it

3041
03:04:49,600 --> 03:04:52,280
Speaker 10: says is the government cannot de citizenize someone because it

3042
03:04:52,320 --> 03:04:54,960
Speaker 10: doesn't agree with their politics, even in the time of

3043
03:04:55,480 --> 03:04:59,360
Speaker 10: anti communism. Right, Once somebody becomes a citizen in their

3044
03:04:59,440 --> 03:05:03,120
Speaker 10: files or remove from USCIS and they go to the

3045
03:05:03,240 --> 03:05:10,160
Speaker 10: National Record Center and so calling the presumably tens of

3046
03:05:10,280 --> 03:05:14,400
Speaker 10: thousands of files of naturalized United States citizens and hundreds

3047
03:05:14,440 --> 03:05:18,520
Speaker 10: of thousands over time millions right would require some kind

3048
03:05:18,600 --> 03:05:21,880
Speaker 10: of filter. The most likely way this is being filtered

3049
03:05:22,520 --> 03:05:24,120
Speaker 10: is through their nationality.

3050
03:05:24,520 --> 03:05:24,680
Speaker 6: Right.

3051
03:05:25,240 --> 03:05:27,760
Speaker 10: One can imagine, for instance, that the seventy five countries

3052
03:05:27,760 --> 03:05:30,560
Speaker 10: Trump has paused green card processes for might be a start,

3053
03:05:30,760 --> 03:05:34,680
Speaker 10: or their specific focus on Somali people might even prove

3054
03:05:35,240 --> 03:05:38,280
Speaker 10: a more focused way of doing it right. They have

3055
03:05:38,440 --> 03:05:41,640
Speaker 10: had some success this week. A Belizean woman was found

3056
03:05:41,640 --> 03:05:46,080
Speaker 10: guilty of naturalization fraud for submitting a fake divorce degree

3057
03:05:46,720 --> 03:05:50,040
Speaker 10: She married an American citizen without being divorced from a

3058
03:05:50,120 --> 03:05:55,439
Speaker 10: previous spouse. Belize They found that she had falsified those documents.

3059
03:05:55,800 --> 03:05:55,920
Speaker 6: Right.

3060
03:05:56,720 --> 03:05:59,760
Speaker 10: They are also pursuing a case against a Nigerian man

3061
03:05:59,800 --> 03:06:02,280
Speaker 10: who has already been convicted of fraud and it has

3062
03:06:02,320 --> 03:06:04,879
Speaker 10: already been put in prison for that, but they are

3063
03:06:04,959 --> 03:06:09,920
Speaker 10: now pursuing a denaturalization case as well. Virtually every interaction

3064
03:06:10,040 --> 03:06:14,680
Speaker 10: with USCIS now seems to require interviews in person and

3065
03:06:14,800 --> 03:06:19,120
Speaker 10: biometric connection. This means that applicants now have to come

3066
03:06:19,160 --> 03:06:21,800
Speaker 10: into an office where they know that people have been detained.

3067
03:06:23,160 --> 03:06:25,640
Speaker 10: This leads to people being afraid to do that right.

3068
03:06:26,200 --> 03:06:28,800
Speaker 10: Petitions are slowing down as they're moved around to a

3069
03:06:28,920 --> 03:06:31,879
Speaker 10: dwindling workforce which is still focused on processing those as

3070
03:06:31,920 --> 03:06:35,680
Speaker 10: opposed to the growing amount of the USCIS workforce which

3071
03:06:35,760 --> 03:06:39,959
Speaker 10: is looking for quote unquote fraud in applications or attempting

3072
03:06:40,000 --> 03:06:43,160
Speaker 10: to denaturalize people. As we just covered, among the people

3073
03:06:43,320 --> 03:06:46,640
Speaker 10: waiting without visas are some people who are waiting for

3074
03:06:46,720 --> 03:06:50,199
Speaker 10: special visas, which are given to people who are survivors

3075
03:06:50,280 --> 03:06:55,080
Speaker 10: of human trafficking, gender based violence, or other crimes. This

3076
03:06:55,320 --> 03:07:00,840
Speaker 10: includes children. There's especially Immigrant Juvenile visa, which every single

3077
03:07:00,920 --> 03:07:04,240
Speaker 10: person I've heard of coming on an SIJ visa has

3078
03:07:04,760 --> 03:07:08,160
Speaker 10: had things happen to them which I didn't struggle to

3079
03:07:08,160 --> 03:07:09,840
Speaker 10: think about that would keep you up at night. And

3080
03:07:09,959 --> 03:07:12,680
Speaker 10: the thought that those people are waiting in limbo because

3081
03:07:12,680 --> 03:07:16,720
Speaker 10: they're trying to denaturalize people is particularly upsetting. I'm sure

3082
03:07:16,720 --> 03:07:19,519
Speaker 10: it's also upsetting to some people who've worked at uscis

3083
03:07:19,640 --> 03:07:23,040
Speaker 10: their whole life, and I know that morale among those

3084
03:07:23,080 --> 03:07:27,080
Speaker 10: people is pretty low. While the agency sort of has

3085
03:07:27,160 --> 03:07:29,520
Speaker 10: changed beyond all recognition in the last couple of years.

3086
03:07:30,200 --> 03:07:34,280
Speaker 10: Talking of changing beyond all recognition, we're going to now

3087
03:07:34,360 --> 03:07:38,760
Speaker 10: pivot from journalism to probably some adverts for online gambling. Yeah,

3088
03:07:39,160 --> 03:07:40,600
Speaker 10: it would be shocking and jarring.

3089
03:07:41,040 --> 03:07:41,600
Speaker 9: I love it.

3090
03:07:41,879 --> 03:07:44,040
Speaker 10: You could change your life beyond all recognition if you

3091
03:07:44,080 --> 03:07:45,160
Speaker 10: have a big win that.

3092
03:07:46,720 --> 03:07:47,480
Speaker 4: Or a big loss.

3093
03:07:47,840 --> 03:07:51,320
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, your life that way, Derrison. We're not supposed

3094
03:07:51,320 --> 03:07:51,840
Speaker 10: to mention.

3095
03:07:51,840 --> 03:08:01,039
Speaker 4: That we're back.

3096
03:08:01,640 --> 03:08:05,440
Speaker 1: And we all just voted on Forbes dot COM's newest

3097
03:08:05,800 --> 03:08:09,680
Speaker 1: prediction contest, how many people will be wounded in the

3098
03:08:09,840 --> 03:08:13,080
Speaker 1: next three American mass shootings. I'm excited. There's a big

3099
03:08:13,200 --> 03:08:14,039
Speaker 1: prize for this one.

3100
03:08:14,920 --> 03:08:15,120
Speaker 6: Sick.

3101
03:08:15,600 --> 03:08:18,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's only slightly an exaggeration of what Forbes is

3102
03:08:19,000 --> 03:08:19,800
Speaker 1: actually doing.

3103
03:08:20,360 --> 03:08:20,600
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3104
03:08:20,959 --> 03:08:23,279
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's pretty gross.

3105
03:08:23,360 --> 03:08:26,840
Speaker 4: It's pretty really hideous. It's okay, guys, it's not a market,

3106
03:08:26,959 --> 03:08:30,280
Speaker 4: it's just our prediction platform. It's a prediction platform. There's

3107
03:08:30,400 --> 03:08:33,960
Speaker 4: no real money, only social capital.

3108
03:08:35,080 --> 03:08:38,320
Speaker 10: That could be the slogan of most journalistic enterprises in

3109
03:08:38,400 --> 03:08:42,360
Speaker 10: twenty twenty six. To be honest, Forbes has kind of

3110
03:08:42,760 --> 03:08:45,200
Speaker 10: been a blog rather than a news website, but this

3111
03:08:45,400 --> 03:08:48,240
Speaker 10: is still pretty disgusting.

3112
03:08:48,440 --> 03:08:50,240
Speaker 4: Speaking of there being no real money.

3113
03:08:50,800 --> 03:08:56,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about the Federal Reserve. So when we

3114
03:08:56,879 --> 03:09:00,120
Speaker 2: last left our I hesitate to call them heroes, yes,

3115
03:09:00,720 --> 03:09:03,720
Speaker 2: But when we last left the Federal Reserve Board, there

3116
03:09:03,840 --> 03:09:07,800
Speaker 2: was a very obviously cooked up investigation by the Justice

3117
03:09:07,840 --> 03:09:13,039
Speaker 2: Department into Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. This investigation doesn't

3118
03:09:13,160 --> 03:09:17,920
Speaker 2: really seem to have advanced at all, but the conflict

3119
03:09:18,040 --> 03:09:21,320
Speaker 2: over Powell and over Powell's replacement has been intensifying in

3120
03:09:21,400 --> 03:09:26,000
Speaker 2: recent weeks. Last week, on the fifteenth of April, Trump

3121
03:09:26,080 --> 03:09:31,280
Speaker 2: threatened to fire Powell if Powell stayed on as basically

3122
03:09:31,360 --> 03:09:36,240
Speaker 2: the temporary Federal Reserve Chair after his term expired. Now,

3123
03:09:37,040 --> 03:09:42,040
Speaker 2: the reason this is happening is because Trump's attempt to

3124
03:09:42,840 --> 03:09:47,120
Speaker 2: get someone confirmed to replace Powell has not been going well,

3125
03:09:47,720 --> 03:09:51,520
Speaker 2: and if no one is confirmed by May fifteenth, then

3126
03:09:51,879 --> 03:09:54,920
Speaker 2: the office is just empty, and Powell has said that

3127
03:09:55,000 --> 03:09:57,959
Speaker 2: he wants to stay on and become the temporary chair.

3128
03:09:59,160 --> 03:10:02,200
Speaker 2: This is sort of unprecedented, but then again, we've also

3129
03:10:02,320 --> 03:10:06,480
Speaker 2: not ever had the president's open an investigation into the

3130
03:10:06,520 --> 03:10:09,400
Speaker 2: sitting chair of the Federal Reserve, causing him to give

3131
03:10:09,440 --> 03:10:13,600
Speaker 2: a reverse hostage video. So where things are right now

3132
03:10:14,000 --> 03:10:18,840
Speaker 2: is that we are getting hearings on Trump's preferred nominee,

3133
03:10:18,879 --> 03:10:23,360
Speaker 2: a man named Kevin Walsh. However, there is a real

3134
03:10:23,520 --> 03:10:28,160
Speaker 2: problem with worsh as as a candidate that's not doesn't

3135
03:10:28,160 --> 03:10:29,880
Speaker 2: have anything to do with who he is. We'll get

3136
03:10:29,879 --> 03:10:32,720
Speaker 2: to that in a second. The biggest issue that Trump

3137
03:10:32,840 --> 03:10:35,840
Speaker 2: is facing here is that Tom Tillis, who's an outgoing

3138
03:10:35,840 --> 03:10:40,000
Speaker 2: Republican Senator, is refusing to let any Trump appointee pass

3139
03:10:40,480 --> 03:10:45,240
Speaker 2: through the Finance Committee unless Trump ends the investigation into

3140
03:10:45,360 --> 03:10:50,320
Speaker 2: Jerom Powell. So this has had everything at a complete standstill.

3141
03:10:50,440 --> 03:10:52,959
Speaker 2: It was sort of unclear though a lot of different

3142
03:10:53,400 --> 03:10:55,800
Speaker 2: Republican senators had threatened to do something like this, But

3143
03:10:56,440 --> 03:11:01,080
Speaker 2: because Tillis is just leaving, he's just he's retiring at

3144
03:11:01,080 --> 03:11:02,480
Speaker 2: the end of this at the end of the session.

3145
03:11:03,040 --> 03:11:05,360
Speaker 2: He's the one who's you know, up there doing it.

3146
03:11:06,240 --> 03:11:08,680
Speaker 2: And this has ground the nomination to a halt. We're

3147
03:11:08,680 --> 03:11:11,080
Speaker 2: still getting hearings, but there's no way for him to

3148
03:11:11,160 --> 03:11:13,760
Speaker 2: actually get a vote to get get this process out

3149
03:11:13,760 --> 03:11:18,680
Speaker 2: of committee. So into this morass steps Kevin Walsh, who

3150
03:11:19,480 --> 03:11:23,720
Speaker 2: He's not the most unhinged guy Trump could have hicked

3151
03:11:23,840 --> 03:11:28,080
Speaker 2: high bar. This is, at least nominally, on the surface,

3152
03:11:28,760 --> 03:11:31,640
Speaker 2: sort of a FED guy like he has worked for

3153
03:11:31,720 --> 03:11:33,680
Speaker 2: the Federal Reserve, like Federal Reserve banks before.

3154
03:11:33,760 --> 03:11:39,760
Speaker 4: He's not a podcast right, Yes, actually, actually.

3155
03:11:41,440 --> 03:11:42,240
Speaker 6: He might have one.

3156
03:11:43,000 --> 03:11:44,480
Speaker 9: There's a non zero chance.

3157
03:11:44,400 --> 03:11:44,840
Speaker 10: He might be.

3158
03:11:44,879 --> 03:11:45,320
Speaker 4: He might be.

3159
03:11:45,520 --> 03:11:48,440
Speaker 2: I I don't know, but I am not willing to

3160
03:11:48,520 --> 03:11:53,840
Speaker 2: say that he is not one. So now this, this,

3161
03:11:54,120 --> 03:11:57,920
Speaker 2: this whole nomination has also become a mess because again,

3162
03:11:58,000 --> 03:12:00,680
Speaker 2: as as we've been talking about, the reason why Trump

3163
03:12:00,800 --> 03:12:03,240
Speaker 2: wants to basically take direct control of the Federal Reserve

3164
03:12:03,680 --> 03:12:08,080
Speaker 2: and and FED independence by installing his guys as a

3165
03:12:08,120 --> 03:12:11,640
Speaker 2: chairman of the Federal Reserve Board is that he wants

3166
03:12:11,680 --> 03:12:13,360
Speaker 2: to FED well, he wants to be able to control

3167
03:12:13,360 --> 03:12:15,240
Speaker 2: the FED so he can control interest rates. He wants

3168
03:12:15,320 --> 03:12:19,480
Speaker 2: interest rates cut. Now, this is coming up a lot

3169
03:12:19,800 --> 03:12:28,040
Speaker 2: in the hearings and so far Walsh is giving answers

3170
03:12:28,160 --> 03:12:30,800
Speaker 2: that if you've ever watched the testimony of someone who's

3171
03:12:30,920 --> 03:12:33,280
Speaker 2: who's trying to get onto the Supreme Court, it's a

3172
03:12:33,320 --> 03:12:36,960
Speaker 2: lot like that, where he is saying the things that

3173
03:12:37,080 --> 03:12:40,040
Speaker 2: he is supposed to say. He's saying that he opposes

3174
03:12:40,160 --> 03:12:42,360
Speaker 2: an interest rate cut. He's saying that the primary job

3175
03:12:42,400 --> 03:12:44,720
Speaker 2: of the FED is a combat inflation. He's saying that

3176
03:12:44,800 --> 03:12:48,120
Speaker 2: he believes it fed independents. But he also has said

3177
03:12:48,120 --> 03:12:52,320
Speaker 2: that Trump has not asked him to cut interest rates.

3178
03:12:53,160 --> 03:12:55,760
Speaker 2: And Elizabeth Warren, who's been sort of leading the Democratic

3179
03:12:56,120 --> 03:12:59,360
Speaker 2: charge against this, has pointed out a number of things,

3180
03:12:59,520 --> 03:13:01,920
Speaker 2: one of which is in workboard. He gets some more

3181
03:13:01,959 --> 03:13:04,000
Speaker 2: of the weird shit with him in a second. But

3182
03:13:04,840 --> 03:13:07,320
Speaker 2: one of the major things here is that the President

3183
03:13:07,800 --> 03:13:10,840
Speaker 2: has said that he's asked Worsh to do just ray cuts.

3184
03:13:11,040 --> 03:13:16,600
Speaker 2: So somebody's lying here. Worsh isn't giving non answers about that.

3185
03:13:17,200 --> 03:13:18,760
Speaker 2: I'm also just going to read this quote from the

3186
03:13:18,760 --> 03:13:22,720
Speaker 2: Associated Press quote. Warren also noted that Worsh has not

3187
03:13:22,959 --> 03:13:26,320
Speaker 2: disclosed all of his financial holdings, which include investments in

3188
03:13:26,400 --> 03:13:29,920
Speaker 2: startups and private companies, or the size of those financial stakes.

3189
03:13:30,200 --> 03:13:33,160
Speaker 2: For example, Worsh has said he has holdings in SpaceX

3190
03:13:33,240 --> 03:13:36,480
Speaker 2: and polymarkets, but it's not said how large those investments are.

3191
03:13:37,120 --> 03:13:39,480
Speaker 4: Great, well, you can't win them off.

3192
03:13:40,720 --> 03:13:43,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, So later on Warsh said he would divest from

3193
03:13:43,920 --> 03:13:48,560
Speaker 2: one hundred million dollars in investments but you know this

3194
03:13:48,760 --> 03:13:50,720
Speaker 2: is great. Warren also points out that he's in the

3195
03:13:50,760 --> 03:13:56,199
Speaker 2: Epstein files because Epstein apparently invited him and his wife

3196
03:13:56,320 --> 03:13:59,360
Speaker 2: to Wade party. It is unclear at this point what

3197
03:14:00,560 --> 03:14:02,480
Speaker 2: what a connection he had, or if there was more.

3198
03:14:02,600 --> 03:14:05,800
Speaker 2: But that's not a great sign. Where we are right

3199
03:14:05,920 --> 03:14:10,080
Speaker 2: now is that worsh is normal enough of a guy

3200
03:14:10,360 --> 03:14:14,080
Speaker 2: that Tom Tillis is willing to vote for him if

3201
03:14:14,120 --> 03:14:17,760
Speaker 2: the investigation is dropped. Tillis and some other members of

3202
03:14:17,920 --> 03:14:20,720
Speaker 2: the committee have been Republican members of the committee have

3203
03:14:20,800 --> 03:14:23,520
Speaker 2: been talking about this scheme to get the investigation transferred

3204
03:14:23,520 --> 03:14:26,360
Speaker 2: from the Department of Justice to the Senate Committee. I

3205
03:14:26,440 --> 03:14:28,240
Speaker 2: think at which point they could basically just kill it

3206
03:14:29,400 --> 03:14:31,120
Speaker 2: or just have it be a thing at a budget overruns.

3207
03:14:31,160 --> 03:14:34,920
Speaker 2: That's not like an attempt to depose Jeroon Powell. It's

3208
03:14:34,959 --> 03:14:36,400
Speaker 2: not clear what's going to happen with that, and it

3209
03:14:36,440 --> 03:14:39,160
Speaker 2: hasn't started yet. This is the point that we're at

3210
03:14:39,240 --> 03:14:42,760
Speaker 2: right now. This conflict is going to keep heating up

3211
03:14:43,000 --> 03:14:46,680
Speaker 2: as the May fifteenth deadline for getting a new nominion

3212
03:14:46,760 --> 03:14:50,920
Speaker 2: before the board vacancy happens, and Jerome Powell basically stays

3213
03:14:50,959 --> 03:14:54,360
Speaker 2: in power longer than his terminally last happens. So we're

3214
03:14:54,400 --> 03:14:57,720
Speaker 2: going to keep following this story. And there's one other

3215
03:14:57,800 --> 03:15:01,560
Speaker 2: story that we are going to keep following, which is

3216
03:15:02,120 --> 03:15:04,680
Speaker 2: there was an exclusive by the Wall Street Journal, which

3217
03:15:04,720 --> 03:15:07,760
Speaker 2: is a report this is from unimed US officials, but

3218
03:15:07,840 --> 03:15:15,120
Speaker 2: it claims that the UAE's central bank governor is reportedly

3219
03:15:15,200 --> 03:15:17,600
Speaker 2: trying to get what's called a currency swap with the US.

3220
03:15:18,120 --> 03:15:20,680
Speaker 2: So what a currency swap is basically is, it's like

3221
03:15:21,080 --> 03:15:23,000
Speaker 2: it's a way to try to fix an exchange rate

3222
03:15:23,080 --> 03:15:25,920
Speaker 2: and get a country a certain amount of US dollars

3223
03:15:26,040 --> 03:15:28,240
Speaker 2: by just like just at the fixed exchange rate, just

3224
03:15:28,320 --> 03:15:30,680
Speaker 2: like swapping X amount of dollars for x amounts of

3225
03:15:30,840 --> 03:15:35,720
Speaker 2: another country's currency. This report was immediately denied, very very

3226
03:15:35,800 --> 03:15:40,120
Speaker 2: quickly denied by a series of posts on x the

3227
03:15:40,200 --> 03:15:44,280
Speaker 2: everything app by the UAE's embassy to the US where

3228
03:15:44,760 --> 03:15:48,600
Speaker 2: they gave a thing of Trump also had like started

3229
03:15:48,640 --> 03:15:51,040
Speaker 2: talking about this too. I'm just going to read a

3230
03:15:51,080 --> 03:15:54,119
Speaker 2: little bit of this quote. We very much appreciate President

3231
03:15:54,160 --> 03:15:56,879
Speaker 2: Trump's recognition of the UAE is one of America's most

3232
03:15:56,920 --> 03:16:00,640
Speaker 2: important economic and trade partners. That recognition reflex at depth

3233
03:16:00,680 --> 03:16:03,320
Speaker 2: of mutual trust based on mutual investment, et cetera, et cetera,

3234
03:16:03,320 --> 03:16:07,879
Speaker 2: et cetera. Any suggestion that the UAE requires external financial

3235
03:16:08,480 --> 03:16:11,360
Speaker 2: backing misreads the facts. The UAE is one of the

3236
03:16:11,480 --> 03:16:15,959
Speaker 2: most financially resilient economies, underpinned by more than two trillion

3237
03:16:16,000 --> 03:16:17,920
Speaker 2: dollars in the sovereign and assets more than three hundred

3238
03:16:17,920 --> 03:16:21,800
Speaker 2: billion dollars in foreign currency reserves held by the UAE

3239
03:16:21,959 --> 03:16:24,920
Speaker 2: Central Bank and banking sectors, with approximately one point five

3240
03:16:25,000 --> 03:16:27,360
Speaker 2: trillion in deposits. So when they start listening out the deposits,

3241
03:16:27,400 --> 03:16:28,880
Speaker 2: that's when things are not going great.

3242
03:16:29,440 --> 03:16:31,440
Speaker 6: And yeah, the the.

3243
03:16:31,920 --> 03:16:33,440
Speaker 2: Issue here, and this is something this is what the

3244
03:16:33,480 --> 03:16:37,440
Speaker 2: Waalsher journal is talking about, is that this is not

3245
03:16:37,720 --> 03:16:40,760
Speaker 2: an immediate proposal. This is a proposal for what's becoming

3246
03:16:40,920 --> 03:16:43,680
Speaker 2: increasingly clear, which is that there's no there's not actually

3247
03:16:43,720 --> 03:16:47,320
Speaker 2: an end to the war and Iran in sight. And

3248
03:16:47,760 --> 03:16:50,560
Speaker 2: if the trader for moves remains closed, this is an

3249
03:16:50,600 --> 03:16:54,520
Speaker 2: existential crisis for the UAE because not only are all

3250
03:16:54,600 --> 03:16:57,760
Speaker 2: of their exports stopped, you know, like the ue itself

3251
03:16:57,840 --> 03:17:00,000
Speaker 2: is just physically under threat, to the infrastructures under threat,

3252
03:17:00,160 --> 03:17:02,680
Speaker 2: and it's very difficult for them to get more investments.

3253
03:17:03,200 --> 03:17:07,039
Speaker 2: And this could in the future start a dollar crisis

3254
03:17:07,920 --> 03:17:09,760
Speaker 2: of the kind that we've talked about on the show

3255
03:17:09,840 --> 03:17:12,960
Speaker 2: before Go if you want to, Yeah, I've talked about

3256
03:17:13,440 --> 03:17:15,960
Speaker 2: basically dollar crises and how you can have balance of

3257
03:17:16,000 --> 03:17:19,920
Speaker 2: payments crises for running out of US dollars. What's interesting

3258
03:17:19,959 --> 03:17:22,200
Speaker 2: about this reports, and the reason that we're sort of

3259
03:17:22,280 --> 03:17:24,760
Speaker 2: talking about it right now, is that one of the

3260
03:17:24,879 --> 03:17:28,640
Speaker 2: things that the UAE reportedly was mentioning was that they

3261
03:17:28,760 --> 03:17:33,200
Speaker 2: might be forced to turn the Chinese currency. It's basically

3262
03:17:33,320 --> 03:17:35,440
Speaker 2: they might be forced to like sell oil in Chinese

3263
03:17:35,480 --> 03:17:38,040
Speaker 2: currency in order to get it through the straight, which

3264
03:17:38,080 --> 03:17:45,080
Speaker 2: would be a apackle shift to the entire global political economy, right,

3265
03:17:45,160 --> 03:17:49,360
Speaker 2: which is the America's status in the world is in part,

3266
03:17:49,560 --> 03:17:52,240
Speaker 2: but in no small part, based on the fact that

3267
03:17:52,320 --> 03:17:55,280
Speaker 2: you can really only buy oil in dollars. And it

3268
03:17:55,440 --> 03:17:58,720
Speaker 2: seems like what's happening is that the UAE is looking

3269
03:17:58,760 --> 03:18:03,080
Speaker 2: at their long term prospects going we're completely screwed. They're going, oh, well,

3270
03:18:03,160 --> 03:18:04,560
Speaker 2: if we don't, if you don't just hand us a

3271
03:18:04,560 --> 03:18:06,520
Speaker 2: bunch of money, we're going to have to start looking

3272
03:18:06,600 --> 03:18:09,880
Speaker 2: at the underpinnings of you know, American imperial power. So

3273
03:18:10,560 --> 03:18:13,560
Speaker 2: we're going to continue to see where this goes. As

3274
03:18:13,640 --> 03:18:15,920
Speaker 2: just war continues, and as the stray continues to be blocked,

3275
03:18:16,480 --> 03:18:18,680
Speaker 2: countries around the world are going to become more and

3276
03:18:18,760 --> 03:18:22,400
Speaker 2: more desperate. As the economic consequences of this ripples out

3277
03:18:22,400 --> 03:18:24,760
Speaker 2: across the world, We're probably going to start seeing more

3278
03:18:24,840 --> 03:18:30,040
Speaker 2: things like this. And at some point, if it becomes

3279
03:18:30,160 --> 03:18:32,320
Speaker 2: clear that the war is not going to end. In

3280
03:18:32,360 --> 03:18:35,200
Speaker 2: Trump's early week announcement that the ceasefires are going to

3281
03:18:35,320 --> 03:18:37,600
Speaker 2: keep going, stops being able to keep the stock markets

3282
03:18:37,640 --> 03:18:41,360
Speaker 2: from being propped up, We're going to start seeing an

3283
03:18:41,400 --> 03:18:44,160
Speaker 2: even wider spread impact of this. But this is a

3284
03:18:45,000 --> 03:18:49,720
Speaker 2: bleak sign from a staunch US ally. Yeah, we have

3285
03:18:49,800 --> 03:18:53,400
Speaker 2: one final story before closing, which is a little funny,

3286
03:18:53,840 --> 03:18:56,440
Speaker 2: also worrying, but more more funny.

3287
03:18:56,520 --> 03:18:58,160
Speaker 10: I think that's pretty good.

3288
03:18:58,959 --> 03:19:03,320
Speaker 4: Shawnie Kirkhoff, the woman that Glenn Beck's right wing outlet

3289
03:19:03,400 --> 03:19:07,960
Speaker 4: The Blaze falsely accused of being the January sixth pipe bomber,

3290
03:19:08,480 --> 03:19:11,240
Speaker 4: has launched a lawsuit against The Blaze and the two

3291
03:19:11,320 --> 03:19:16,120
Speaker 4: quote unquote journalists who wrote the story for context. Last November,

3292
03:19:16,240 --> 03:19:19,440
Speaker 4: the Blaze published a story claiming to have identified the

3293
03:19:19,560 --> 03:19:23,720
Speaker 4: bomber as a Capitol police officer who responded to the

3294
03:19:23,840 --> 03:19:29,640
Speaker 4: January sixth insurrection based on quote forensic gate analysis which

3295
03:19:29,680 --> 03:19:33,360
Speaker 4: determined the officer was a quote up to ninety eight

3296
03:19:33,440 --> 03:19:37,400
Speaker 4: percent match to surveillance video of the bomber.

3297
03:19:37,680 --> 03:19:38,600
Speaker 6: Oh God.

3298
03:19:38,920 --> 03:19:42,280
Speaker 4: This lawsuit claims five counts of defamation and one count

3299
03:19:42,400 --> 03:19:48,000
Speaker 4: of defamation by implication, and Kerkhoff is requesting a jury trial.

3300
03:19:48,840 --> 03:19:53,560
Speaker 4: The documents claim that the Blaze report targeted her because

3301
03:19:53,600 --> 03:19:56,400
Speaker 4: of her actions on January sixth as a police officer

3302
03:19:56,920 --> 03:20:01,760
Speaker 4: and testimony she gave against insurrectionists in court, and part

3303
03:20:01,800 --> 03:20:04,680
Speaker 4: of the intention of targeting her was to build on

3304
03:20:04,840 --> 03:20:08,240
Speaker 4: this larger idea that the defendants had that January sixth

3305
03:20:08,400 --> 03:20:12,280
Speaker 4: was a quote unquote inside job. As these reports were

3306
03:20:12,320 --> 03:20:15,680
Speaker 4: getting published by The Blaze, Glenn Beck said on his show,

3307
03:20:15,800 --> 03:20:18,480
Speaker 4: quote this is one of the biggest stories. I think

3308
03:20:18,720 --> 03:20:22,280
Speaker 4: it is the biggest scandal of my lifetime, maybe in

3309
03:20:22,400 --> 03:20:23,960
Speaker 4: the last one hundred years.

3310
03:20:24,360 --> 03:20:27,760
Speaker 1: Paper monstrous, bigger than Watergate.

3311
03:20:28,160 --> 03:20:29,879
Speaker 4: Pullit surprise winning stuff.

3312
03:20:31,520 --> 03:20:34,160
Speaker 10: You have the capacity for self delusion, Yeah.

3313
03:20:34,000 --> 03:20:35,440
Speaker 4: Pullet sinning stuff.

3314
03:20:35,560 --> 03:20:37,720
Speaker 9: I'm waiting for the politics are committed to finish reviewing

3315
03:20:37,760 --> 03:20:38,120
Speaker 9: this one.

3316
03:20:38,959 --> 03:20:40,640
Speaker 10: They're gonna have to get in a nine after the

3317
03:20:40,680 --> 03:20:43,080
Speaker 10: pulic serprise are surely going to get for interviewing the

3318
03:20:43,200 --> 03:20:47,800
Speaker 10: dude who murdered Minneapolis Democratic politicians? Well, yeah, which I'm

3319
03:20:47,800 --> 03:20:50,520
Speaker 10: sure was an action that his lawyer was super stoked about.

3320
03:20:50,680 --> 03:20:50,880
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3321
03:20:51,480 --> 03:20:54,200
Speaker 4: Court documents to say that because of this false claim,

3322
03:20:54,600 --> 03:20:58,120
Speaker 4: the CIA placed the plaintiff on administrative leave and she

3323
03:20:58,320 --> 03:21:02,400
Speaker 4: was forced into hiding amidst online threats from conspiracy theorists

3324
03:21:02,560 --> 03:21:07,400
Speaker 4: quote for her role in supporting the deep state, including

3325
03:21:07,600 --> 03:21:11,360
Speaker 4: in posts on her mother's obituary web page unquote, she

3326
03:21:11,480 --> 03:21:14,640
Speaker 4: was getting death threats on the obituary page for her mother.

3327
03:21:15,560 --> 03:21:19,840
Speaker 10: Yeah, in constant frustration in my life, his journalists posting

3328
03:21:19,920 --> 03:21:22,400
Speaker 10: screenshots from court cases and then not listening to the

3329
03:21:22,440 --> 03:21:24,840
Speaker 10: court listener page. So I decided to find the page

3330
03:21:24,879 --> 03:21:28,200
Speaker 10: so I could not be that guy. But yes, some

3331
03:21:28,320 --> 03:21:31,880
Speaker 10: of the threats this woman got genuinely probably made her

3332
03:21:31,920 --> 03:21:33,880
Speaker 10: life very difficult to live for a period of time.

3333
03:21:34,360 --> 03:21:38,920
Speaker 4: Absolutely. The stud alleges that even after she was cleared

3334
03:21:39,240 --> 03:21:43,959
Speaker 4: as a suspect and weeks later another suspect was arrested

3335
03:21:44,080 --> 03:21:48,480
Speaker 4: who seems to be the likely bomber, these blaze ute

3336
03:21:48,520 --> 03:21:52,400
Speaker 4: unquote journalists continue to harass her and that their quote,

3337
03:21:52,840 --> 03:21:58,840
Speaker 4: false and defamatory accusations have irreparably changed her life unquote.

3338
03:21:59,400 --> 03:22:03,279
Speaker 4: The documents that this ruined her lifetime career in public

3339
03:22:03,360 --> 03:22:06,720
Speaker 4: service by forever linking her to the bombing and records

3340
03:22:06,840 --> 03:22:11,240
Speaker 4: of an FBI investigation, making any potential security clearance is

3341
03:22:11,280 --> 03:22:15,320
Speaker 4: needed in the future difficult or impossible to pass. One

3342
03:22:15,320 --> 03:22:19,000
Speaker 4: of the journalists was fired by the Blaze on April first,

3343
03:22:19,360 --> 03:22:22,520
Speaker 4: just earlier this month, and the other resigned two days later.

3344
03:22:23,560 --> 03:22:28,000
Speaker 4: They have since raised over twenty thousand dollars since leaving

3345
03:22:28,040 --> 03:22:31,960
Speaker 4: the Blaze to continue their claims on a new independent

3346
03:22:32,040 --> 03:22:34,199
Speaker 4: website that they're launching. Given the name of the website,

3347
03:22:34,760 --> 03:22:39,360
Speaker 4: the website is called Yeah, They're a toss regnant LLC.

3348
03:22:39,600 --> 03:22:41,000
Speaker 9: Yes, yes, Veritas.

3349
03:22:41,200 --> 03:22:44,120
Speaker 4: I think that just means the truth is king basically trains.

3350
03:22:44,560 --> 03:22:46,480
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, I think that's what they were going for

3351
03:22:46,600 --> 03:22:46,960
Speaker 10: at least.

3352
03:22:47,160 --> 03:22:47,320
Speaker 15: Yeah.

3353
03:22:47,680 --> 03:22:48,080
Speaker 6: I love it.

3354
03:22:48,200 --> 03:22:48,600
Speaker 4: I love it.

3355
03:22:48,959 --> 03:22:51,480
Speaker 1: When I read that detail, I was you guys are

3356
03:22:51,560 --> 03:22:55,600
Speaker 1: going to be the most sued any people have ever been.

3357
03:22:55,879 --> 03:22:56,640
Speaker 9: It's beautiful.

3358
03:22:57,120 --> 03:22:59,080
Speaker 10: Something about PITOD seems relevant here.

3359
03:23:00,879 --> 03:23:02,720
Speaker 4: The document says that the plaintiff was called in to

3360
03:23:02,800 --> 03:23:06,199
Speaker 4: work on November sixth, where two FBI agents then asked

3361
03:23:06,240 --> 03:23:09,560
Speaker 4: her about quote unquote online chatter that she was the bomber.

3362
03:23:10,280 --> 03:23:13,040
Speaker 4: She consented to a phone and car search and was

3363
03:23:13,120 --> 03:23:16,360
Speaker 4: placed on administrative leave. Later that day, a quote unquote

3364
03:23:16,440 --> 03:23:20,480
Speaker 4: caravan of FBI vehicles arrived outside her home, including a

3365
03:23:20,600 --> 03:23:24,000
Speaker 4: bomb disposal truck and a helicopter. I'm just going to

3366
03:23:24,080 --> 03:23:26,800
Speaker 4: read from the document quote. The agents claimed that they

3367
03:23:26,800 --> 03:23:30,920
Speaker 4: were primarily looking for shoes. Agents edited their vehicles with

3368
03:23:31,040 --> 03:23:34,600
Speaker 4: their guns drawn in full tactical gear. An agent called

3369
03:23:34,959 --> 03:23:39,560
Speaker 4: mister Dickert, who is the plaintiff's boyfriend, and commanded him

3370
03:23:39,680 --> 03:23:42,640
Speaker 4: to quote come out of the house unarmed with your dogs.

3371
03:23:43,600 --> 03:23:47,880
Speaker 4: Mister Dickart and missus Kirkhoff complied and stepped outside. Agents

3372
03:23:47,959 --> 03:23:51,080
Speaker 4: swept through the house, then re entered with bomb sniffing dogs.

3373
03:23:51,560 --> 03:23:55,920
Speaker 4: They opened cabinets, rifled through drawers, and scattered Missus Kerkhoff's

3374
03:23:55,959 --> 03:24:00,640
Speaker 4: and mister Dickard's belongings, all without obtaining Miss Kerr's or

3375
03:24:00,879 --> 03:24:04,880
Speaker 4: mister Dickert's consent. It suddenly occurred to miss Kirkoff that

3376
03:24:04,959 --> 03:24:07,840
Speaker 4: they were not simply looking for a pair of shoes.

3377
03:24:08,320 --> 03:24:08,760
Speaker 6: Unquote.

3378
03:24:09,360 --> 03:24:11,080
Speaker 10: Never heard the masking for the dogs to come out

3379
03:24:11,080 --> 03:24:13,360
Speaker 10: before that was a new one for me.

3380
03:24:13,640 --> 03:24:16,959
Speaker 4: That is an interesting detail. That is an interesting Yeah.

3381
03:24:17,160 --> 03:24:21,000
Speaker 4: So the plaintiff asked the agents there why they would

3382
03:24:21,040 --> 03:24:25,320
Speaker 4: do all this to investigate quote unquote online chatter, and

3383
03:24:25,600 --> 03:24:28,360
Speaker 4: as senior official responded that these orders came from quote

3384
03:24:28,400 --> 03:24:33,000
Speaker 4: unquote higher up and that Miss Kirkhoff could quote clear

3385
03:24:33,120 --> 03:24:36,720
Speaker 4: everything up just that night if she would accompany agents

3386
03:24:36,959 --> 03:24:41,119
Speaker 4: to the FBI office for a polygraph interview. Miss Kerkoff agreed,

3387
03:24:41,400 --> 03:24:44,080
Speaker 4: and agents assured her that the drive out to the

3388
03:24:44,120 --> 03:24:47,600
Speaker 4: office would take longer than the interview itself. This was

3389
03:24:47,680 --> 03:24:51,640
Speaker 4: not true. The interview lasted almost three hours. Agents repeatedly

3390
03:24:51,720 --> 03:24:56,039
Speaker 4: accused the plaintiff of placing the bombs and continually asserted

3391
03:24:56,080 --> 03:24:59,360
Speaker 4: her guilt. Part Way through the interview, the interrogator changed

3392
03:24:59,360 --> 03:25:02,000
Speaker 4: out the tube on the polygraph because they quote did

3393
03:25:02,120 --> 03:25:04,919
Speaker 4: not like how they were reading unquote.

3394
03:25:04,640 --> 03:25:06,320
Speaker 10: That was a remarkable detail.

3395
03:25:07,240 --> 03:25:12,160
Speaker 4: Jesus yeah, oh, Jesus Christ, and at one point told

3396
03:25:12,200 --> 03:25:15,960
Speaker 4: the plaintiff that she quote unquote fail Wow. Oh, the

3397
03:25:16,040 --> 03:25:18,840
Speaker 4: plaintiff assumed was just an interrogation technique.

3398
03:25:18,959 --> 03:25:22,120
Speaker 10: Yeah, you can't fail a polygraph test, right, It just

3399
03:25:22,200 --> 03:25:25,800
Speaker 10: gives information, yes, often not actually information, which she's very

3400
03:25:25,879 --> 03:25:27,840
Speaker 10: useful in any way relevant to whether you're telling the

3401
03:25:27,879 --> 03:25:31,160
Speaker 10: truth or not. Polygraphs not not really something that should

3402
03:25:31,160 --> 03:25:33,680
Speaker 10: be used in this capacity. But here we go anyway.

3403
03:25:33,879 --> 03:25:36,480
Speaker 10: But yet there's not like a past fail. It doesn't

3404
03:25:36,560 --> 03:25:38,800
Speaker 10: like a bleep bleep bleep liar detective.

3405
03:25:38,920 --> 03:25:42,879
Speaker 4: Now, after midnight, she asked if she was free to leave,

3406
03:25:43,040 --> 03:25:45,880
Speaker 4: and the agents said yes, so she went home. In

3407
03:25:45,959 --> 03:25:49,280
Speaker 4: the next day, the FBI returned her phone, and then

3408
03:25:49,440 --> 03:25:51,960
Speaker 4: once she got back her phone, she saw this quote

3409
03:25:52,000 --> 03:25:56,000
Speaker 4: unquote online chatter exploding all over, alleging that she was

3410
03:25:56,120 --> 03:25:59,920
Speaker 4: the bomber. A day later, the Blaze published a report

3411
03:26:00,200 --> 03:26:04,520
Speaker 4: explicitly naming her as the bombing suspect, something they already

3412
03:26:04,560 --> 03:26:08,560
Speaker 4: alluded to in previous reporting, which sparked the online chatter,

3413
03:26:08,720 --> 03:26:11,440
Speaker 4: which caused the FBI to search her home and interrogate her.

3414
03:26:12,520 --> 03:26:15,680
Speaker 4: This was all intentional on the part of the Blaze.

3415
03:26:15,800 --> 03:26:19,720
Speaker 4: According to this court document, the defendants, these quote unquote

3416
03:26:19,760 --> 03:26:23,600
Speaker 4: journalists purposely forwarded a tip to the Office of the

3417
03:26:23,640 --> 03:26:26,320
Speaker 4: Director of National Intelligence in an attempt to get quote

3418
03:26:26,360 --> 03:26:31,039
Speaker 4: unquote coroboration of their reporting from sources inside the government

3419
03:26:31,160 --> 03:26:34,880
Speaker 4: by getting the plaintiff placed under investigation. Prior to their

3420
03:26:34,959 --> 03:26:39,960
Speaker 4: publishing of the articles identifying her as the bomber. This

3421
03:26:40,600 --> 03:26:42,160
Speaker 4: was basically all part of the ski.

3422
03:26:42,480 --> 03:26:45,120
Speaker 9: Their goal was to set the narrative Jesus Christ.

3423
03:26:47,080 --> 03:26:50,760
Speaker 4: Months later, the defendants have refused to remove headlines or

3424
03:26:50,840 --> 03:26:54,520
Speaker 4: social media posts claiming to identify the bomber, even after

3425
03:26:54,640 --> 03:26:57,680
Speaker 4: the actual text of these articles was removed after the

3426
03:26:57,879 --> 03:27:03,240
Speaker 4: FBI arrested the real suspect in December. Well, just last month,

3427
03:27:03,600 --> 03:27:07,959
Speaker 4: the quote unquote journalists published another article on The Blaze titled,

3428
03:27:08,040 --> 03:27:13,760
Speaker 4: quote Brian Cole Junior's physical presence, posture, mannerisms are no

3429
03:27:14,000 --> 03:27:18,760
Speaker 4: match to FBI's hooey clad pipe bomb suspect unquote god.

3430
03:27:19,040 --> 03:27:21,360
Speaker 4: This was another article on The Blaze saying that Gate

3431
03:27:21,400 --> 03:27:24,879
Speaker 4: analysis showed that Brian Cole Junior, the actual suspect who

3432
03:27:24,879 --> 03:27:30,440
Speaker 4: has been arrested, does not match the Gate does not

3433
03:27:30,680 --> 03:27:37,280
Speaker 4: have a positive Gate analysis match to the surveillance footage

3434
03:27:37,400 --> 03:27:38,160
Speaker 4: from that night.

3435
03:27:38,280 --> 03:27:42,119
Speaker 1: Oh god, because it's not real, because because Gate analysis

3436
03:27:42,200 --> 03:27:42,760
Speaker 1: is bullshit.

3437
03:27:43,040 --> 03:27:45,360
Speaker 10: Well they break that down in the quote documents, right.

3438
03:27:45,400 --> 03:27:47,320
Speaker 10: The footage of her that they had was when she's

3439
03:27:47,400 --> 03:27:50,520
Speaker 10: carrying like fifty pounds of tactical gear and a heavy.

3440
03:27:50,400 --> 03:27:54,160
Speaker 1: Bag tactical gear yes, yes, and she suffered a serious

3441
03:27:54,320 --> 03:27:56,280
Speaker 1: laying injury in college.

3442
03:27:56,560 --> 03:28:00,720
Speaker 10: Yeh, it's comical that like they that this is what

3443
03:28:00,800 --> 03:28:02,720
Speaker 10: they went with, but then the fact that they're doubling

3444
03:28:02,760 --> 03:28:03,680
Speaker 10: down on it's very.

3445
03:28:03,640 --> 03:28:05,840
Speaker 4: Funny and legally baffling.

3446
03:28:07,040 --> 03:28:10,440
Speaker 10: Yeah, they really are not ready for the consequences to

3447
03:28:10,480 --> 03:28:11,280
Speaker 10: hit them on this one.

3448
03:28:11,840 --> 03:28:15,360
Speaker 4: No. So, like I said, these two quote unquot journalists

3449
03:28:15,640 --> 03:28:18,280
Speaker 4: were fired and Slash left The Blaze earlier this month,

3450
03:28:19,000 --> 03:28:23,240
Speaker 4: but in posts and podcast appearances, they assert that Brian

3451
03:28:23,320 --> 03:28:26,600
Speaker 4: Cole Junior is a quote unquote patsy, and that quote

3452
03:28:26,959 --> 03:28:29,879
Speaker 4: the truth about the pipe bomber has been quote unquote

3453
03:28:29,959 --> 03:28:34,880
Speaker 4: floored it, and that quote unquote legal considerations are preventing

3454
03:28:34,959 --> 03:28:39,760
Speaker 4: them from further disclosing the quote unquote darker details about

3455
03:28:39,879 --> 03:28:46,280
Speaker 4: their yeah, pipe bomber theory is christ Now, Brian Colet

3456
03:28:46,320 --> 03:28:50,439
Speaker 4: Junior's defense lawyers have filed a subpoena for miss Kirkoff,

3457
03:28:50,879 --> 03:28:54,880
Speaker 4: which misleadingly states she quote unquote failed a polygraph. This

3458
03:28:55,000 --> 03:28:58,000
Speaker 4: subpoena also contains her home address, and the subpoena has

3459
03:28:58,000 --> 03:29:01,920
Speaker 4: been spread online by these quote quote journalists as evidence

3460
03:29:01,959 --> 03:29:05,560
Speaker 4: that they were right all along. The plaintiff continues to

3461
03:29:05,640 --> 03:29:08,200
Speaker 4: deal with doxing and death threats as a result from

3462
03:29:08,200 --> 03:29:12,920
Speaker 4: the subpoena, and the quote unquote journalists continued reporting, spreading

3463
03:29:13,000 --> 03:29:16,640
Speaker 4: claims that she is in fact the real bomber. So

3464
03:29:16,800 --> 03:29:19,520
Speaker 4: Kirkoff is requesting a jury trial with these six counts

3465
03:29:19,520 --> 03:29:22,760
Speaker 4: of defamation. And I hope she gets a lot of

3466
03:29:22,800 --> 03:29:24,800
Speaker 4: money from everyone involved in this.

3467
03:29:25,160 --> 03:29:27,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, I hope she gets every dollar.

3468
03:29:27,680 --> 03:29:30,680
Speaker 10: Glenn beck Hans, Yeah, I mean I hope the outlets

3469
03:29:31,200 --> 03:29:33,199
Speaker 10: existing that is that would be ideal.

3470
03:29:33,280 --> 03:29:36,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope the outlet becomes yet another subsidiary of

3471
03:29:36,840 --> 03:29:37,279
Speaker 1: the Onion.

3472
03:29:40,840 --> 03:29:42,760
Speaker 10: That would be a magnificent way for this to end.

3473
03:29:42,840 --> 03:29:46,640
Speaker 10: But yeah, like yeah, and then another element of the

3474
03:29:46,800 --> 03:29:48,880
Speaker 10: documents are noticed with that they talked about how the

3475
03:29:49,920 --> 03:29:53,280
Speaker 10: the quote unquote journalists had benefited from their Blue check

3476
03:29:53,480 --> 03:29:54,279
Speaker 10: X posts.

3477
03:29:54,080 --> 03:29:56,200
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, monetized accounts on X.

3478
03:29:56,320 --> 03:29:56,520
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3479
03:29:57,120 --> 03:29:59,960
Speaker 10: I would be interested to see as we get more

3480
03:30:00,240 --> 03:30:03,840
Speaker 10: in discovery element of this case, how much were they

3481
03:30:04,000 --> 03:30:07,240
Speaker 10: making how much would it making from X versus the Blaze? Like,

3482
03:30:08,040 --> 03:30:10,720
Speaker 10: I'm going to follow this one just because so many

3483
03:30:11,480 --> 03:30:14,760
Speaker 10: of the bits of misleading reporting we see are because

3484
03:30:14,800 --> 03:30:17,879
Speaker 10: of this financial incentive structure. So it'll be very revealing

3485
03:30:17,959 --> 03:30:18,640
Speaker 10: for us well.

3486
03:30:18,720 --> 03:30:21,920
Speaker 4: And this financial structure is something that X Everything app

3487
03:30:22,000 --> 03:30:24,440
Speaker 4: is somewhat attempting to take on, at least for news

3488
03:30:24,480 --> 03:30:25,480
Speaker 4: aggregator accounts.

3489
03:30:25,920 --> 03:30:29,560
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they specifically went off to dom Lucret apparently.

3490
03:30:29,920 --> 03:30:32,520
Speaker 4: Yes, one of X's guys announced like a week or

3491
03:30:32,600 --> 03:30:35,920
Speaker 4: so ago that they're going to be reforming reforming the

3492
03:30:36,240 --> 03:30:40,480
Speaker 4: payout system for news aggregators. This is uh Nikolie de Beer.

3493
03:30:41,080 --> 03:30:41,320
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3494
03:30:41,879 --> 03:30:44,119
Speaker 1: Part of the way they're doing that is that Ex's

3495
03:30:44,240 --> 03:30:47,280
Speaker 1: traffic is in free fall, and this is something that

3496
03:30:47,360 --> 03:30:50,640
Speaker 1: we're seeing, like across social media. There was a really

3497
03:30:50,760 --> 03:30:54,520
Speaker 1: good report that Peter Tornberg, who's an assistant professor in

3498
03:30:54,560 --> 03:30:59,200
Speaker 1: computational social science at the University of Amsterdam, published earlier

3499
03:30:59,320 --> 03:30:59,760
Speaker 1: this year.

3500
03:31:00,360 --> 03:31:03,199
Speaker 9: I mean, like just today came up with an update

3501
03:31:03,240 --> 03:31:03,400
Speaker 9: on it.

3502
03:31:03,520 --> 03:31:05,800
Speaker 1: On like the most recent numbers we have on like

3503
03:31:06,160 --> 03:31:09,280
Speaker 1: what's happening to the different social media networks. Visiting and

3504
03:31:09,360 --> 03:31:12,640
Speaker 1: posting on X the Everything app and Facebook have seen

3505
03:31:12,720 --> 03:31:17,920
Speaker 1: like a nearly fifty percent drops, a significant decline among

3506
03:31:18,400 --> 03:31:22,320
Speaker 1: like the youngest and the oldest users on social media,

3507
03:31:22,520 --> 03:31:25,440
Speaker 1: particularly like people over sixty five and people from eighteen

3508
03:31:25,480 --> 03:31:27,840
Speaker 1: to twenty four have seen like the biggest decline and

3509
03:31:28,000 --> 03:31:31,400
Speaker 1: like the time that they've actually spent on site. I'm

3510
03:31:31,440 --> 03:31:32,480
Speaker 1: going to be doing something.

3511
03:31:32,320 --> 03:31:34,640
Speaker 4: More detailed about this in the future, But a lot

3512
03:31:34,680 --> 03:31:35,320
Speaker 4: of what you're.

3513
03:31:35,200 --> 03:31:37,480
Speaker 1: Seeing from these big social media companies and these like

3514
03:31:37,560 --> 03:31:42,320
Speaker 1: big pivots, right are moves in desperation. This is not

3515
03:31:42,560 --> 03:31:45,720
Speaker 1: working as well as it used to. The economics that

3516
03:31:45,800 --> 03:31:49,040
Speaker 1: once underpin this system are falling apart. None of these

3517
03:31:49,120 --> 03:31:52,480
Speaker 1: companies are as profitable as they used to be, and

3518
03:31:53,280 --> 03:31:57,360
Speaker 1: people are pulling away from social media, particularly from like

3519
03:31:57,840 --> 03:32:00,880
Speaker 1: a lot of the text based social media sites which

3520
03:32:00,920 --> 03:32:04,200
Speaker 1: were never as profitable as like short form video was.

3521
03:32:04,480 --> 03:32:09,080
Speaker 1: So I don't know, that's something that made me less bummed.

3522
03:32:10,120 --> 03:32:12,480
Speaker 4: Well, I hope, I hope she gets certainly all the

3523
03:32:12,520 --> 03:32:14,760
Speaker 4: money they got from X and learning how much money

3524
03:32:14,800 --> 03:32:18,959
Speaker 4: that was will be super interesting in discovery and hopefully

3525
03:32:19,560 --> 03:32:21,600
Speaker 4: much much much more money as well.

3526
03:32:22,360 --> 03:32:22,600
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3527
03:32:23,120 --> 03:32:28,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, speaking of money, James, you wanted to plug a donation.

3528
03:32:29,480 --> 03:32:29,920
Speaker 9: That's right.

3529
03:32:30,040 --> 03:32:33,280
Speaker 10: Yeah, I want to talk retty briefly about the guys

3530
03:32:33,320 --> 03:32:36,359
Speaker 10: from Cobra column. So Cobra Column if people aren't familiar,

3531
03:32:36,720 --> 03:32:41,360
Speaker 10: it's a special Forces or it's a PDF that is

3532
03:32:41,440 --> 03:32:46,680
Speaker 10: aligned with the Korn National Union Crerand National Liberation Army

3533
03:32:47,160 --> 03:32:49,560
Speaker 10: and the struggle for liberation in the m R against

3534
03:32:49,560 --> 03:32:53,720
Speaker 10: the Hunter Right. They have been fighting intensely in an

3535
03:32:53,760 --> 03:32:57,160
Speaker 10: area near reality, place that Robert and I spend some time,

3536
03:32:57,240 --> 03:32:59,680
Speaker 10: actually just across the river from place Robin I spend

3537
03:32:59,720 --> 03:33:03,440
Speaker 10: some time. Albeit the Hunter has successfully launched munitions into

3538
03:33:03,440 --> 03:33:07,440
Speaker 10: Thailand several times now, and they are really like if

3539
03:33:07,480 --> 03:33:09,920
Speaker 10: you want to look at the front line of people's

3540
03:33:09,959 --> 03:33:14,480
Speaker 10: autonomy against autocracy, against dictatorship, against tyranny, like they are

3541
03:33:14,560 --> 03:33:18,000
Speaker 10: at it, and they need money to sustain their efforts,

3542
03:33:18,080 --> 03:33:20,480
Speaker 10: to feed themselves, to equip themselves, to buy medical equipment,

3543
03:33:21,000 --> 03:33:23,320
Speaker 10: and I think they're also trying to buy like a

3544
03:33:23,400 --> 03:33:26,680
Speaker 10: replacement helmets and body armor because they're keep getting hit

3545
03:33:26,760 --> 03:33:29,640
Speaker 10: by drones, right, and people have survivable injuries, but their

3546
03:33:29,760 --> 03:33:32,320
Speaker 10: armor is destroyed. If you'd like to help, you can

3547
03:33:32,480 --> 03:33:36,760
Speaker 10: send fifteen euros for ten stickers. Stickers have the Milk

3548
03:33:36,840 --> 03:33:39,840
Speaker 10: Tea Alliance salute, which is the same as the salute

3549
03:33:39,879 --> 03:33:42,720
Speaker 10: that the cub Scouts use and the one from Hunger Games.

3550
03:33:43,240 --> 03:33:45,080
Speaker 10: I'm not going to describe it because you can work

3551
03:33:45,120 --> 03:33:50,240
Speaker 10: it out. It is stickers for Meanmar at ProtonMail dot com.

3552
03:33:50,440 --> 03:33:53,720
Speaker 10: You can send fifteen euros for two stickers. That's s

3553
03:33:53,800 --> 03:33:56,680
Speaker 10: T I C K E R S f O R

3554
03:33:57,000 --> 03:33:59,920
Speaker 10: M y A N M A R at ProtonMail dot com.

3555
03:34:00,680 --> 03:34:03,320
Speaker 10: If you want to email us cool Zone Tips at

3556
03:34:03,360 --> 03:34:06,560
Speaker 10: proton don't me If it's a marketing email, I'll block you.

3557
03:34:07,240 --> 03:34:08,840
Speaker 2: Put a trans girl on your couch.

3558
03:34:10,360 --> 03:34:11,039
Speaker 4: We reported the.

3559
03:34:11,080 --> 03:34:15,959
Speaker 9: News hy, Bye, We reported the news.

3560
03:34:22,080 --> 03:34:22,240
Speaker 6: Hey.

3561
03:34:22,400 --> 03:34:25,480
Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3562
03:34:25,520 --> 03:34:27,199
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the Universe.

3563
03:34:27,959 --> 03:34:30,440
Speaker 4: It could Happen Here is a production of pool Zone Media.

3564
03:34:30,640 --> 03:34:33,680
Speaker 4: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3565
03:34:33,800 --> 03:34:37,320
Speaker 4: Foolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3566
03:34:37,440 --> 03:34:40,240
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3567
03:34:40,760 --> 03:34:42,640
Speaker 1: You can now find sources where it Could Happen here

3568
03:34:42,720 --> 03:34:44,520
Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions.

3569
03:34:44,879 --> 03:34:45,640
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening.