1 00:00:08,245 --> 00:00:11,885 Speaker 1: School of Humans. 2 00:00:13,325 --> 00:00:16,565 Speaker 2: On the night of Saturday, November twenty first, twenty fifteen, 3 00:00:17,125 --> 00:00:20,645 Speaker 2: Victor Collins, a forty seven year old former police officer 4 00:00:20,685 --> 00:00:23,485 Speaker 2: who worked at Walmart, was hanging out with some friends, 5 00:00:24,085 --> 00:00:28,365 Speaker 2: Owen MacDonald, Sean Henry, and thirty one year old James Bates. 6 00:00:29,165 --> 00:00:32,645 Speaker 2: The four friends went back to James's house in Bentonville, Arkansas, 7 00:00:32,685 --> 00:00:34,325 Speaker 2: to watch a Razorbacks football game. 8 00:00:35,165 --> 00:00:36,325 Speaker 1: This was a big game. 9 00:00:36,685 --> 00:00:40,205 Speaker 2: The Arkansas Razorbacks were playing Mississippi State, so this was 10 00:00:40,205 --> 00:00:43,725 Speaker 2: an all day event. Now, and this is according to 11 00:00:43,725 --> 00:00:47,245 Speaker 2: court documents, these four guys were drinking. They started out 12 00:00:47,285 --> 00:00:50,485 Speaker 2: with beers and also had some vodka shots. They hung 13 00:00:50,525 --> 00:00:53,445 Speaker 2: out and talked and kept drinking after the game ended. 14 00:00:54,405 --> 00:00:57,565 Speaker 2: At some point, according to court documents, the guys went 15 00:00:57,605 --> 00:01:00,005 Speaker 2: out to the back patio to have some more beers 16 00:01:00,005 --> 00:01:03,645 Speaker 2: in the hot tub. At around eleven PM, Sean and 17 00:01:03,765 --> 00:01:06,485 Speaker 2: James got out of the hot tub, leaving Victor and 18 00:01:06,605 --> 00:01:10,085 Speaker 2: Owen hanging out there. The night seemed to be kind 19 00:01:10,085 --> 00:01:13,565 Speaker 2: of winding down at that point. Sean left first, then 20 00:01:13,645 --> 00:01:18,165 Speaker 2: Owen sometime shortly after midnight, leaving Victor and James alone 21 00:01:18,205 --> 00:01:21,405 Speaker 2: at the house. Now, James claimed that after that at 22 00:01:21,445 --> 00:01:24,125 Speaker 2: around one am, he went to bed to crash. 23 00:01:24,285 --> 00:01:25,925 Speaker 1: He said, he left Victor in the hot tub. 24 00:01:26,845 --> 00:01:32,725 Speaker 2: In the morning, he found Victor there floating face down. Now, 25 00:01:32,765 --> 00:01:36,125 Speaker 2: what really happened that night and what happened next depended 26 00:01:36,205 --> 00:01:37,325 Speaker 2: on who you asked. 27 00:01:38,205 --> 00:01:39,485 Speaker 1: But one thing is for sure. 28 00:01:39,565 --> 00:01:42,885 Speaker 2: This simple Saturday afternoon that started out with four friends 29 00:01:42,965 --> 00:01:48,085 Speaker 2: drinking began a multi year investigation, an ordeal that involved 30 00:01:48,125 --> 00:01:53,365 Speaker 2: allegations of murder, police corruption, and sparked a national debate 31 00:01:53,605 --> 00:01:57,285 Speaker 2: about what devices in our houses are listening when we 32 00:01:57,325 --> 00:02:01,845 Speaker 2: think we're alone. I'm Catherine Townsend. Over the past five 33 00:02:01,925 --> 00:02:05,045 Speaker 2: years of making my true crime podcast, Helling Gone, I 34 00:02:05,085 --> 00:02:07,765 Speaker 2: have learned there is no such thing as a small 35 00:02:07,845 --> 00:02:11,805 Speaker 2: town where murder never happens. I have received hundreds of 36 00:02:11,805 --> 00:02:15,045 Speaker 2: messages from people all around the country asking for help 37 00:02:15,085 --> 00:02:18,085 Speaker 2: with an unsolved murder that's affected them, their families, and 38 00:02:18,125 --> 00:02:21,645 Speaker 2: their communities. If you have a case you'd like me 39 00:02:21,685 --> 00:02:23,925 Speaker 2: and my team to look into, you can reach out 40 00:02:23,965 --> 00:02:26,165 Speaker 2: to us at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six 41 00:02:26,205 --> 00:02:30,365 Speaker 2: seven eight seven four four six one four five. That's 42 00:02:30,365 --> 00:02:33,925 Speaker 2: six seven eight seven four four six one four five. 43 00:02:34,725 --> 00:03:19,085 Speaker 2: This is Helen Gone Murder Line. 44 00:03:23,045 --> 00:03:24,645 Speaker 1: James called nine to one one. 45 00:03:24,765 --> 00:03:28,045 Speaker 2: At nine thirty five am, paramedics and police got to 46 00:03:28,085 --> 00:03:30,325 Speaker 2: his house and tried to put together what happened the 47 00:03:30,405 --> 00:03:34,005 Speaker 2: night before. Now again, James claimed that he had gone 48 00:03:34,005 --> 00:03:36,525 Speaker 2: to bed at around one am. He said he woke 49 00:03:36,605 --> 00:03:39,765 Speaker 2: up shortly after nine am on November twenty second and 50 00:03:39,845 --> 00:03:41,485 Speaker 2: found Victor dead in the hot tab. 51 00:03:42,605 --> 00:03:44,685 Speaker 1: James said he was asleep the whole time. 52 00:03:44,765 --> 00:03:47,765 Speaker 2: He had no idea what happened to Victor, but from 53 00:03:47,765 --> 00:03:50,765 Speaker 2: the time that police got there, it did seem like. 54 00:03:50,885 --> 00:03:55,725 Speaker 2: Detectives were questioning certain elements of James's story. They found 55 00:03:55,765 --> 00:03:59,245 Speaker 2: some facial injuries on Victor, a black and swollen eye. 56 00:03:59,605 --> 00:04:03,045 Speaker 2: They started to suspect that maybe James wasn't telling them 57 00:04:03,085 --> 00:04:05,725 Speaker 2: the full truth. They wondered if the two men it 58 00:04:05,725 --> 00:04:08,125 Speaker 2: had some kind of fight, and that maybe James had 59 00:04:08,125 --> 00:04:11,925 Speaker 2: tried to cover it up. Detectives also noticed blood in 60 00:04:11,965 --> 00:04:15,245 Speaker 2: the water, which, according to an arrest affidavit, was tinted 61 00:04:15,245 --> 00:04:19,125 Speaker 2: red and appeared to contain bodily fluids and blood. There 62 00:04:19,205 --> 00:04:21,765 Speaker 2: was also blood coming from Victor's nose in his mouth, 63 00:04:22,405 --> 00:04:27,965 Speaker 2: both were swollen. He also had a cut on his eyelid. Detectives' 64 00:04:28,005 --> 00:04:32,165 Speaker 2: suspicions were raised further, according to the affidavit, when they 65 00:04:32,205 --> 00:04:35,005 Speaker 2: began to believe that the patio and the hot tub 66 00:04:35,125 --> 00:04:38,125 Speaker 2: had been sprayed down with a water hose. They saw 67 00:04:38,165 --> 00:04:40,405 Speaker 2: a hot tub cushion lying on the ground with blood 68 00:04:40,405 --> 00:04:43,165 Speaker 2: spots on it. They also saw an area of blood 69 00:04:43,165 --> 00:04:46,245 Speaker 2: spatter on the hot tub cover, blood that, according to 70 00:04:46,245 --> 00:04:50,085 Speaker 2: the affidavit, was matched to Victor Collins. They thought that 71 00:04:50,165 --> 00:04:53,605 Speaker 2: this was strange because, first of all, they were wondering 72 00:04:53,965 --> 00:04:57,565 Speaker 2: if the hot tub area was sprayed down, who did it, 73 00:04:57,725 --> 00:05:00,285 Speaker 2: Because who would spray down a hot tub in the 74 00:05:00,285 --> 00:05:03,765 Speaker 2: middle of the night before calling the police. And also, 75 00:05:04,045 --> 00:05:06,765 Speaker 2: it was very cold that night, so they thought using 76 00:05:06,845 --> 00:05:09,805 Speaker 2: a hose at all was kind of odd. Things got 77 00:05:09,845 --> 00:05:12,965 Speaker 2: even more complicated once Victor's body was sent for an autopsy. 78 00:05:13,965 --> 00:05:17,805 Speaker 2: The medical examiner, doctor Charles Cocus, said that in his opinion, 79 00:05:18,325 --> 00:05:23,165 Speaker 2: Victor died from strangulation, with drowning as a secondary contributing factor. 80 00:05:24,485 --> 00:05:28,085 Speaker 2: James told police that this was absolutely not true. He 81 00:05:28,165 --> 00:05:31,925 Speaker 2: completely denied strangling his friend. He said he had nothing 82 00:05:31,965 --> 00:05:34,725 Speaker 2: to do with Victor's death. It was obviously an accident. 83 00:05:35,165 --> 00:05:36,965 Speaker 2: He said he wasn't there at all, He'd been in 84 00:05:37,005 --> 00:05:40,845 Speaker 2: bed by the way. To this day, James completely denies 85 00:05:40,925 --> 00:05:42,685 Speaker 2: he had anything to do with Victor's death. 86 00:05:43,605 --> 00:05:44,685 Speaker 1: Victor was from Georgia. 87 00:05:45,045 --> 00:05:47,605 Speaker 2: He had been a police officer, first with the Cherokee 88 00:05:47,645 --> 00:05:51,445 Speaker 2: County Sheriff's Office, later with the Canton Police Department. He 89 00:05:51,525 --> 00:05:54,325 Speaker 2: left that job and in twenty ten moved to Arkansas 90 00:05:54,405 --> 00:05:56,445 Speaker 2: with his wife, Christine, and their family. 91 00:05:57,245 --> 00:05:58,565 Speaker 1: He took the job at Walmart. 92 00:05:59,325 --> 00:06:02,325 Speaker 2: Friends and families said he and Christine had been very 93 00:06:02,365 --> 00:06:05,965 Speaker 2: happily married for eighteen years and they had five children. 94 00:06:06,605 --> 00:06:11,165 Speaker 2: So for this loving marriage to end with hot tub 95 00:06:11,205 --> 00:06:16,685 Speaker 2: homicide headlines must have been so incredibly sad and shocking. 96 00:06:17,565 --> 00:06:20,085 Speaker 2: The irony is terrible too, because I can imagine I 97 00:06:20,125 --> 00:06:22,525 Speaker 2: don't know for sure, but I can imagine that one 98 00:06:22,605 --> 00:06:25,085 Speaker 2: of the reasons why Victor probably chose to leave law 99 00:06:25,165 --> 00:06:27,885 Speaker 2: enforcement in the first place and move into something like 100 00:06:27,965 --> 00:06:30,805 Speaker 2: loss prevention was so he'd be in a safer place, 101 00:06:31,285 --> 00:06:33,325 Speaker 2: so that he would not have to worry about getting 102 00:06:33,365 --> 00:06:35,845 Speaker 2: killed on the job. The fact that he died at 103 00:06:35,885 --> 00:06:38,725 Speaker 2: a friend's house while having a few beers and watching 104 00:06:38,765 --> 00:06:43,685 Speaker 2: a football game is so sad and tragic. But police wondered, 105 00:06:44,445 --> 00:06:48,365 Speaker 2: was this just a tragic accident, or did something happen 106 00:06:48,565 --> 00:06:54,045 Speaker 2: after hours? What really happened in that hot tub. James 107 00:06:54,045 --> 00:06:58,085 Speaker 2: continued to insist Victor's death had been an accident. He 108 00:06:58,365 --> 00:07:01,805 Speaker 2: and later through his attorney in a lawsuit, pointed out Victor. 109 00:07:01,645 --> 00:07:04,005 Speaker 1: Was a big guy, six foot five. 110 00:07:03,805 --> 00:07:07,605 Speaker 2: And three hundred and fifteen pounds, and they were drinking. 111 00:07:08,005 --> 00:07:10,485 Speaker 2: Victor's blood alcohol level at the time had been a 112 00:07:10,605 --> 00:07:13,165 Speaker 2: point three to one eight, around four times the legal 113 00:07:13,205 --> 00:07:15,845 Speaker 2: limit to drive in the state of Arkansas. There were 114 00:07:15,885 --> 00:07:18,845 Speaker 2: no other illegal drugs found in Victor's system, though the 115 00:07:18,885 --> 00:07:24,205 Speaker 2: autopsy did fund traces of the antidepressant prozac and methyl fenidae, 116 00:07:25,125 --> 00:07:28,365 Speaker 2: which is used to treat narcolepsy and is found in 117 00:07:28,405 --> 00:07:32,925 Speaker 2: the brand name Riddlin. Later, through his lawyer Jason Bates, 118 00:07:33,005 --> 00:07:36,805 Speaker 2: also pointed out there were no marks on Victor's neck, 119 00:07:36,925 --> 00:07:39,725 Speaker 2: no evidence that there had been anything wrapped around his neck, 120 00:07:39,765 --> 00:07:43,525 Speaker 2: no ligature marks, and no evidence of damage to Victor's throat. 121 00:07:44,325 --> 00:07:47,645 Speaker 2: But police seemed to be convinced that James was guilty. 122 00:07:48,605 --> 00:07:51,285 Speaker 2: They executed a search warrant, looked through his phone records 123 00:07:51,325 --> 00:07:53,525 Speaker 2: and found evidence that he had been texting a woman 124 00:07:53,565 --> 00:07:58,685 Speaker 2: that night. Later, according to police, James called his father 125 00:07:58,845 --> 00:08:02,085 Speaker 2: and some friends, but apparently every single one of the 126 00:08:02,125 --> 00:08:05,965 Speaker 2: calls were canceled before they had a chance to go through. Now, 127 00:08:06,125 --> 00:08:08,805 Speaker 2: James told police those must have been butt dials and 128 00:08:08,845 --> 00:08:11,445 Speaker 2: those definitely happened, especially after drinking. 129 00:08:12,165 --> 00:08:13,245 Speaker 1: But police were. 130 00:08:13,085 --> 00:08:17,325 Speaker 2: Suspicious and a lot of these calls, according to detectives, 131 00:08:17,405 --> 00:08:20,525 Speaker 2: were placed after one am, So it seems like the 132 00:08:20,565 --> 00:08:23,925 Speaker 2: detectives saw it as further potential evidence that maybe James 133 00:08:23,925 --> 00:08:26,125 Speaker 2: had not gone to bed when he said he did. 134 00:08:27,125 --> 00:08:29,725 Speaker 2: They did confirm other elements of his story. They talked 135 00:08:29,725 --> 00:08:33,005 Speaker 2: to a neighbor who saw Owen walking home shortly after midnight. 136 00:08:33,765 --> 00:08:37,325 Speaker 2: Owen was intoxicated, and this neighbor gave Owen a ride home. 137 00:08:38,005 --> 00:08:41,325 Speaker 2: Owen's wife confirmed that Owen got home at twelve thirty am. 138 00:08:41,845 --> 00:08:45,365 Speaker 2: Owen told police that when he left everything was fine. 139 00:08:45,525 --> 00:08:48,645 Speaker 2: Victor was alive and well, and the neighbor who gave 140 00:08:48,685 --> 00:08:51,685 Speaker 2: Owen a lift said that other than being pretty intoxicated, 141 00:08:52,005 --> 00:08:53,885 Speaker 2: he saw no sign that there had been any kind 142 00:08:53,885 --> 00:08:57,445 Speaker 2: of a struggle. So now the timeframe was narrowing. It 143 00:08:57,525 --> 00:09:00,645 Speaker 2: seemed like whatever had happened in that house happened after 144 00:09:00,765 --> 00:09:03,885 Speaker 2: Owen left. Detectives drained the hot tub, and at the 145 00:09:03,885 --> 00:09:07,565 Speaker 2: bottom they found Victor's glass that were broken. They also 146 00:09:07,685 --> 00:09:11,645 Speaker 2: found a broken shot glass and Victor's wedding ring. When 147 00:09:11,645 --> 00:09:14,005 Speaker 2: I first read that, I thought that was a little 148 00:09:14,005 --> 00:09:18,285 Speaker 2: bit odd because wedding rings don't normally slip off like that. 149 00:09:19,045 --> 00:09:21,925 Speaker 2: But today I learned a lot of people take rings 150 00:09:21,965 --> 00:09:25,645 Speaker 2: off because over time, chlorine and chemicals in hot tubs 151 00:09:25,645 --> 00:09:28,565 Speaker 2: can corrode the metal. This was true, by the way, 152 00:09:28,725 --> 00:09:32,285 Speaker 2: even though James had a saltwater hot tub. I actually, 153 00:09:32,325 --> 00:09:34,725 Speaker 2: because I get obsessed with these details, did some research 154 00:09:34,845 --> 00:09:37,885 Speaker 2: on saltwater hot tubs and also found out that they 155 00:09:37,925 --> 00:09:42,565 Speaker 2: do use chlorine generators, so technically they're not chlorine free. 156 00:09:42,685 --> 00:09:46,605 Speaker 2: There is still chlorine in a saltwater hot tub. Police 157 00:09:46,645 --> 00:09:50,205 Speaker 2: also got a search warrant for James's body. They took 158 00:09:50,245 --> 00:09:53,565 Speaker 2: pictures of him and during that photo session they documented 159 00:09:53,685 --> 00:09:57,325 Speaker 2: James had several scratches on him on his abdomen, back, 160 00:09:57,365 --> 00:10:01,685 Speaker 2: in arms. They also stated he had a large bruise. Again, 161 00:10:02,245 --> 00:10:06,645 Speaker 2: this is not confirmation of anything, because yes, this could 162 00:10:06,685 --> 00:10:09,125 Speaker 2: have been caused from a fight. But also, these guys 163 00:10:09,125 --> 00:10:11,645 Speaker 2: were drunk. They were stumbling around, climbing in and out 164 00:10:11,645 --> 00:10:14,525 Speaker 2: of a hot tub. I can see how they could 165 00:10:14,565 --> 00:10:18,565 Speaker 2: have had marks on them. There was no definitive physical 166 00:10:18,605 --> 00:10:23,405 Speaker 2: evidence linking James to Victor's body, but detectives just did 167 00:10:23,445 --> 00:10:26,285 Speaker 2: not believe that he had butt dialed that many times 168 00:10:26,405 --> 00:10:29,525 Speaker 2: and canceled the calls, especially since they said his cell 169 00:10:29,565 --> 00:10:33,005 Speaker 2: phone was locked again. This is all according to the 170 00:10:33,045 --> 00:10:37,005 Speaker 2: affidavit of probable cause. They asked him about the scratches 171 00:10:37,005 --> 00:10:39,325 Speaker 2: and some small cuts they said he had on his hands. 172 00:10:39,765 --> 00:10:43,045 Speaker 2: James claimed they were from CrossFit classes or that they 173 00:10:43,125 --> 00:10:48,085 Speaker 2: might have been scratches from his cat. Eventually, they arrested 174 00:10:48,165 --> 00:10:51,285 Speaker 2: James and he was charged with first degree murder and 175 00:10:51,325 --> 00:10:54,325 Speaker 2: tampering with evidence. The judge set the bail at three 176 00:10:54,405 --> 00:10:58,045 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand dollars. He bonded out and waited 177 00:10:58,045 --> 00:11:01,685 Speaker 2: for the trial to start. James was facing serious prison 178 00:11:01,725 --> 00:11:04,965 Speaker 2: time ten to forty years in prison plus six years 179 00:11:05,005 --> 00:11:07,845 Speaker 2: if he was found guilty of the tampering charges. So 180 00:11:08,045 --> 00:11:11,285 Speaker 2: now the police had a problem because they thought something 181 00:11:11,405 --> 00:11:13,445 Speaker 2: might have happened between James and Victor. 182 00:11:14,005 --> 00:11:16,685 Speaker 1: But actually it was just a he said. He said. 183 00:11:16,725 --> 00:11:19,525 Speaker 2: Because there were only two people there, Victor and James, 184 00:11:19,805 --> 00:11:22,605 Speaker 2: they had no real physical evidence. There was nothing on 185 00:11:22,685 --> 00:11:25,845 Speaker 2: James linking him to Victor. No one, none of the 186 00:11:25,885 --> 00:11:28,165 Speaker 2: other friends who were there that night had any idea 187 00:11:28,205 --> 00:11:31,765 Speaker 2: about any bad blood between James and Victor. They said 188 00:11:31,805 --> 00:11:34,485 Speaker 2: they were all having fun. And also, it's really hard 189 00:11:34,525 --> 00:11:36,925 Speaker 2: in general when someone is killed at a friend's house 190 00:11:37,325 --> 00:11:40,845 Speaker 2: sometimes to determine exactly what went down. It's not like 191 00:11:41,005 --> 00:11:45,205 Speaker 2: DNA would necessarily be that decisive, because all of these 192 00:11:45,245 --> 00:11:49,205 Speaker 2: men's DNA was all over that house. They began searching 193 00:11:49,245 --> 00:11:52,285 Speaker 2: for electronic devices. There weren't any cameras in the house, 194 00:11:52,765 --> 00:11:57,205 Speaker 2: but there was something else. Victor had an Amazon Echo 195 00:11:57,245 --> 00:12:02,085 Speaker 2: device with an Alexa Virtual Assistant and they were playing 196 00:12:02,165 --> 00:12:07,405 Speaker 2: music through the Echo with Alexa that night. So police 197 00:12:07,445 --> 00:12:10,885 Speaker 2: served multiple search warrants. They went in and took James's 198 00:12:10,925 --> 00:12:13,405 Speaker 2: electronics on December second, twenty fifteen. 199 00:12:13,885 --> 00:12:17,365 Speaker 1: They searched his vehicle. They searched through every. 200 00:12:17,125 --> 00:12:19,165 Speaker 2: Electronic device he had at his house, and there were 201 00:12:19,245 --> 00:12:23,165 Speaker 2: quite a few, including an iPhone, a MacBook Pro, several 202 00:12:23,165 --> 00:12:26,685 Speaker 2: iPads and tablets, a Mac Minie, and a PS four, 203 00:12:27,205 --> 00:12:30,925 Speaker 2: plus some airport time capsules. Ever since I learned about 204 00:12:30,925 --> 00:12:34,725 Speaker 2: this case, it has absolutely fascinated me because I think 205 00:12:34,765 --> 00:12:36,485 Speaker 2: it really goes into an area that I think is 206 00:12:36,485 --> 00:12:39,445 Speaker 2: going to be hugely important in investigating cases going forward, 207 00:12:39,485 --> 00:12:43,205 Speaker 2: which is the role of technology and especially how technology 208 00:12:43,285 --> 00:12:46,445 Speaker 2: is moving way faster than the law and how it's applied. 209 00:12:47,365 --> 00:12:49,805 Speaker 2: This was really the first case I read about where 210 00:12:49,805 --> 00:12:52,245 Speaker 2: an Alexa might have potentially been a witness and a 211 00:12:52,285 --> 00:12:55,005 Speaker 2: murder case, and being from Arkansas, so I say this 212 00:12:55,125 --> 00:12:58,165 Speaker 2: with love. It's weird to think of Arkansas as something 213 00:12:58,205 --> 00:13:01,245 Speaker 2: that's cutting edge on anything, but in some areas it is. 214 00:13:01,805 --> 00:13:04,845 Speaker 2: This was the first case I ever heard of involving 215 00:13:04,965 --> 00:13:09,005 Speaker 2: an Echo. The prosecutor on this case was thinking outside 216 00:13:09,045 --> 00:13:11,565 Speaker 2: the box. I learned something new every day at this job, 217 00:13:11,565 --> 00:13:13,565 Speaker 2: and one of the things I learned was the device 218 00:13:13,645 --> 00:13:16,605 Speaker 2: itself is called an Amazon Echo. Alexa is not the 219 00:13:16,685 --> 00:13:18,485 Speaker 2: name of the device, it's just the name of the 220 00:13:18,525 --> 00:13:21,725 Speaker 2: actual virtual assistant. In practice, we use Echo and Alexa 221 00:13:21,765 --> 00:13:24,445 Speaker 2: pretty much interchangeably, So I'm just going to refer to 222 00:13:24,485 --> 00:13:27,485 Speaker 2: the device as Alexa. So as we all know now, 223 00:13:27,525 --> 00:13:30,685 Speaker 2: the way that Alexa works is you say a wake word, 224 00:13:30,725 --> 00:13:34,085 Speaker 2: which is normally the name Alexa or Amazon, but you 225 00:13:34,125 --> 00:13:36,205 Speaker 2: can change the name to other things. So, for example, 226 00:13:36,245 --> 00:13:38,805 Speaker 2: if your name is Alexa, you won't be constantly annoyed. 227 00:13:38,965 --> 00:13:42,485 Speaker 2: Once it's triggered, Once the device here's the wake word, 228 00:13:42,565 --> 00:13:47,245 Speaker 2: it starts recording. You see a little blue circle around 229 00:13:47,245 --> 00:13:51,565 Speaker 2: the top. But sometimes it's triggered by accidents. Sometimes you 230 00:13:51,605 --> 00:13:54,045 Speaker 2: say a word that sounds kind of close to alexa 231 00:13:54,405 --> 00:13:55,725 Speaker 2: and the device will start recording. 232 00:13:55,805 --> 00:13:56,885 Speaker 1: This happens to me all the time. 233 00:13:56,925 --> 00:14:01,085 Speaker 2: By the way, Amazon has transcripts of those conversations that 234 00:14:01,125 --> 00:14:03,965 Speaker 2: you're having with this device, and to be honest, it's 235 00:14:04,045 --> 00:14:06,805 Speaker 2: not clear exactly what the company does with those. 236 00:14:06,925 --> 00:14:08,365 Speaker 1: And if they're ever deleted. 237 00:14:09,205 --> 00:14:12,445 Speaker 2: Amazon has said that quote the recordings are streamed and 238 00:14:12,445 --> 00:14:16,085 Speaker 2: stored remotely and can be reviewed or deleted over. 239 00:14:15,885 --> 00:14:17,045 Speaker 1: Time end quote. 240 00:14:17,485 --> 00:14:22,365 Speaker 2: Honestly, that's not super reassuring. So police served a search 241 00:14:22,405 --> 00:14:27,405 Speaker 2: warrant on Amazon for the content in Alexa, and it 242 00:14:27,525 --> 00:14:30,965 Speaker 2: seems like their theory was the device was on and 243 00:14:31,045 --> 00:14:34,445 Speaker 2: was recording, and maybe they were hoping somebody said something 244 00:14:34,525 --> 00:14:36,765 Speaker 2: that sounded like the wake word and they might have 245 00:14:36,845 --> 00:14:38,805 Speaker 2: gotten some inadvertent audio from that night. 246 00:14:40,205 --> 00:14:42,165 Speaker 1: How ethical is it for police to do this? 247 00:14:42,645 --> 00:14:45,245 Speaker 2: Tom Doton wrote an article for the Information that was 248 00:14:45,445 --> 00:14:48,445 Speaker 2: very interesting and in depth talked about how the technology 249 00:14:48,445 --> 00:14:51,405 Speaker 2: works and the implications for law, and I highly recommend 250 00:14:51,405 --> 00:14:55,205 Speaker 2: reading it if you're interested in this case. Basically, the 251 00:14:55,245 --> 00:14:59,365 Speaker 2: Bentonville Police Department wanted Amazon to give them audio recordings 252 00:14:59,405 --> 00:15:03,285 Speaker 2: and transcripts that came from James Bates Echo device for 253 00:15:03,325 --> 00:15:05,845 Speaker 2: a forty eight hour period of time that would the 254 00:15:05,925 --> 00:15:08,645 Speaker 2: night when the alleged murder happened. They also wanted a 255 00:15:08,685 --> 00:15:13,365 Speaker 2: subscriber and account information. Amazon did give the subscriber information 256 00:15:13,405 --> 00:15:16,765 Speaker 2: to police, which is fairly standard, but it fought to 257 00:15:16,845 --> 00:15:20,645 Speaker 2: keep those recordings private. The company refused to hand them 258 00:15:20,645 --> 00:15:24,205 Speaker 2: over because they felt that demand was overly brought. This 259 00:15:24,285 --> 00:15:27,125 Speaker 2: blew up into a national story and an argument over 260 00:15:27,165 --> 00:15:30,845 Speaker 2: First Amendment rights. Amazon refused to hand over the recordings. 261 00:15:30,885 --> 00:15:34,485 Speaker 2: They fought in court for months. According to court documents, 262 00:15:34,885 --> 00:15:37,525 Speaker 2: they made the claim that data stored on the Echo 263 00:15:37,565 --> 00:15:41,565 Speaker 2: device is protected by the First Amendment and privacy rights 264 00:15:41,605 --> 00:15:45,645 Speaker 2: for customers. They made a really interesting argument actually, According 265 00:15:45,685 --> 00:15:48,365 Speaker 2: to the Jolt Digest, which is produced by Harvard Law School, 266 00:15:48,685 --> 00:15:52,525 Speaker 2: they said that quote users communications to Alexa, which include 267 00:15:52,565 --> 00:15:56,485 Speaker 2: requests for expressive materials such as music, podcasts and audiobooks, 268 00:15:56,845 --> 00:16:00,285 Speaker 2: should be subject to heightened First Amendment protection, similar to 269 00:16:00,325 --> 00:16:04,485 Speaker 2: the treatment of physical purchase records kept by bookstores end quote. 270 00:16:04,605 --> 00:16:08,565 Speaker 2: They also argued Alexa's responses to what users say should 271 00:16:08,565 --> 00:16:13,805 Speaker 2: be covered under free speech law. I was really interested 272 00:16:13,845 --> 00:16:17,285 Speaker 2: in seeing how this case played out. And here's where 273 00:16:17,325 --> 00:16:20,445 Speaker 2: it gets even more interesting because the Alexa was not 274 00:16:20,565 --> 00:16:22,845 Speaker 2: the only piece of tech that James had at home. 275 00:16:23,285 --> 00:16:27,045 Speaker 2: He also had a smart water meter, and that smart 276 00:16:27,045 --> 00:16:29,805 Speaker 2: water meter would lead later to one of the biggest 277 00:16:29,845 --> 00:16:32,365 Speaker 2: twists in this case, one that no one saw coming. 278 00:16:33,205 --> 00:16:37,525 Speaker 2: Detectives went to the Bentonville Utilities department. They asked the 279 00:16:37,565 --> 00:16:40,965 Speaker 2: department to give them James Bates water usage for the 280 00:16:41,005 --> 00:16:44,045 Speaker 2: times after one am, after James said he went to bed. 281 00:16:44,885 --> 00:16:45,445 Speaker 1: According to the. 282 00:16:45,445 --> 00:16:49,325 Speaker 2: Affidavit, the data showed that fifty gallons of water flowed 283 00:16:49,325 --> 00:16:52,005 Speaker 2: out between one and two am on November twenty second, 284 00:16:52,325 --> 00:16:55,405 Speaker 2: and then ninety gallons of water went out between two 285 00:16:55,405 --> 00:16:59,685 Speaker 2: and three am, so that was extremely high water usage. 286 00:16:59,685 --> 00:17:02,685 Speaker 2: According to police, that residence had never used that much 287 00:17:02,725 --> 00:17:04,965 Speaker 2: water since October of twenty thirteen. 288 00:17:05,565 --> 00:17:08,125 Speaker 1: Detectives believed that extra water. 289 00:17:07,965 --> 00:17:12,005 Speaker 2: Usage between one and three am happened because someone sprayed 290 00:17:12,045 --> 00:17:16,805 Speaker 2: the patio down. The fight between Amazon and the Bentonville 291 00:17:16,845 --> 00:17:21,965 Speaker 2: Police went on The Bentonville Police served another warrant and 292 00:17:22,885 --> 00:17:26,445 Speaker 2: Amazon doubled down. According to court documents, Amazon said, quote, 293 00:17:26,725 --> 00:17:30,005 Speaker 2: given the important First Amendment and privacy implications at state, 294 00:17:30,365 --> 00:17:32,805 Speaker 2: the warrant should be quashed unless the court finds the 295 00:17:32,845 --> 00:17:35,325 Speaker 2: state has met its heightened burden for compelled production of 296 00:17:35,365 --> 00:17:39,005 Speaker 2: such materials end quote. They also said, as a matter 297 00:17:39,045 --> 00:17:44,285 Speaker 2: of course, they objected to overbroad or otherwise inappropriate demands. 298 00:17:44,685 --> 00:17:47,165 Speaker 2: They doubled down and told the police department to see 299 00:17:47,165 --> 00:17:51,565 Speaker 2: them in court. Meanwhile, national media, including Weis, was covering 300 00:17:51,565 --> 00:17:54,285 Speaker 2: the story. They were talking about Alexa being put on 301 00:17:54,285 --> 00:17:58,805 Speaker 2: the witness stand and making graphics of Alexa in a courtroom. 302 00:17:59,845 --> 00:18:05,005 Speaker 2: Nathan Smith, the prosecutor, was doing interviews. The case seemed 303 00:18:05,005 --> 00:18:07,805 Speaker 2: to be headed to trial, but then right before it 304 00:18:07,845 --> 00:18:10,605 Speaker 2: was due to go to trial, something kind of melodramatic happened. 305 00:18:11,285 --> 00:18:12,765 Speaker 1: James Bates gave his. 306 00:18:12,805 --> 00:18:17,045 Speaker 2: Consent to Amazon to have the recordings released. Apparently he 307 00:18:17,085 --> 00:18:20,085 Speaker 2: and his attorney felt they would help exonerate him, and 308 00:18:20,125 --> 00:18:23,525 Speaker 2: according to media reports, he was right, because the prosecutor 309 00:18:23,525 --> 00:18:26,605 Speaker 2: and his team did not find anything useful in those recordings. 310 00:18:27,325 --> 00:18:30,605 Speaker 2: So in November of twenty seventeen, the judge in the 311 00:18:30,645 --> 00:18:34,285 Speaker 2: case dismissed the charges against James Bates. He was free, 312 00:18:35,485 --> 00:18:39,005 Speaker 2: but some of Victor's friends and family were not satisfied 313 00:18:39,045 --> 00:18:41,765 Speaker 2: with this. They believed they did not get justice. They 314 00:18:41,805 --> 00:18:45,645 Speaker 2: believed Victor had been murdered. Victor's widow, Christine, made it 315 00:18:45,805 --> 00:18:48,725 Speaker 2: very clear she did not agree with this decision. She 316 00:18:48,845 --> 00:18:51,725 Speaker 2: felt prosecutors should have gone forward with the evidence they had, 317 00:18:51,805 --> 00:18:54,725 Speaker 2: and she told CNN quote, I had to go home 318 00:18:54,805 --> 00:18:57,325 Speaker 2: last night, sit down with my children and explain to 319 00:18:57,365 --> 00:19:00,485 Speaker 2: them that the person who killed their father, who prevents 320 00:19:00,525 --> 00:19:03,845 Speaker 2: them from Father's Days and Christmases and a regular life, 321 00:19:04,445 --> 00:19:06,685 Speaker 2: is going to continue to enjoyed those things with his 322 00:19:06,765 --> 00:19:10,445 Speaker 2: family without any recourse whatsoever for what he has done 323 00:19:10,445 --> 00:19:15,485 Speaker 2: to mind end quote. But the prosecutors said they really 324 00:19:15,525 --> 00:19:18,285 Speaker 2: had nothing definitive. They just did not feel that they 325 00:19:18,325 --> 00:19:20,525 Speaker 2: could prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt. 326 00:19:21,565 --> 00:19:24,045 Speaker 1: By the way, the police and the prosecutor, Nathan Smith, 327 00:19:24,085 --> 00:19:26,285 Speaker 1: were not in agreement on this. Actually. 328 00:19:26,365 --> 00:19:30,885 Speaker 2: A spokesperson for the Bentonville Police Department told the Northwest 329 00:19:30,925 --> 00:19:34,645 Speaker 2: Arkansas Democrat Gazette that the police believed they had enough 330 00:19:34,685 --> 00:19:36,805 Speaker 2: evidence to go to trial and they were not happy 331 00:19:36,885 --> 00:19:40,725 Speaker 2: with what the prosecutor's office was doing. The tension between 332 00:19:40,845 --> 00:19:45,285 Speaker 2: James Bates, Victor Collins's widow, and the police department was 333 00:19:45,325 --> 00:19:50,125 Speaker 2: about to get a lot worse. Several months later, Victor's widow, Christine, 334 00:19:50,205 --> 00:19:53,925 Speaker 2: filed a wrongful death civil lawsuit against James in Benton 335 00:19:53,965 --> 00:19:58,565 Speaker 2: County Circuit Court. In her lawsuit, which she started on 336 00:19:58,605 --> 00:20:02,245 Speaker 2: behalf of Victor's estate, she claimed that James was at 337 00:20:02,285 --> 00:20:04,485 Speaker 2: fault for his death. She said he provided the alcohol 338 00:20:04,485 --> 00:20:07,405 Speaker 2: that Victor drank. She said at some point James drove 339 00:20:07,485 --> 00:20:11,925 Speaker 2: Victor to the store and James bought more alcohol. The 340 00:20:11,965 --> 00:20:15,165 Speaker 2: crux of her argument was she claimed that James had 341 00:20:15,205 --> 00:20:18,965 Speaker 2: allowed Victor to consume to the point of extreme and 342 00:20:19,045 --> 00:20:23,445 Speaker 2: obvious intoxication. She stated in her lawsuit that she believed 343 00:20:23,525 --> 00:20:25,525 Speaker 2: that Victor and James had fought and it ended in 344 00:20:25,605 --> 00:20:29,125 Speaker 2: Victor's death. She also stated she thought James was negligent 345 00:20:29,205 --> 00:20:32,685 Speaker 2: to leave Victor, who was extremely intoxicated in a hot 346 00:20:32,685 --> 00:20:37,165 Speaker 2: tub alone. But James hit back. He claimed that not 347 00:20:37,245 --> 00:20:41,645 Speaker 2: only was Christine's lawsuit. According to his lawyer Kathleen Zelner, who, 348 00:20:41,685 --> 00:20:44,765 Speaker 2: by the way, side note made headlines for taking famous cases, 349 00:20:44,805 --> 00:20:48,205 Speaker 2: including Stephen Avery's, which was documented on the Netflix series 350 00:20:48,205 --> 00:20:52,645 Speaker 2: Making a Murder. Kathleen Zelner said that Christine's complaint had 351 00:20:52,645 --> 00:20:56,965 Speaker 2: been frivolous and completely without merit. In his lawsuit, James 352 00:20:57,005 --> 00:21:00,405 Speaker 2: claimed the police department the Bentonville Police, were trying to 353 00:21:00,445 --> 00:21:03,405 Speaker 2: frame him. He said that even when they realized he 354 00:21:03,485 --> 00:21:06,965 Speaker 2: was not guilty, they tried to him up for murder anyway. 355 00:21:07,885 --> 00:21:12,885 Speaker 2: In that lawsuit, James alleged that Bentenville police officers concealed 356 00:21:13,045 --> 00:21:17,085 Speaker 2: relevant audio recordings and destroyed his phone to prevent him 357 00:21:17,085 --> 00:21:20,605 Speaker 2: from obtaining information from it. Stepping back from all this 358 00:21:20,685 --> 00:21:23,125 Speaker 2: legal stuff for a minute, I think that this case 359 00:21:23,165 --> 00:21:26,445 Speaker 2: is very interesting for another reason besides the tech, because 360 00:21:26,925 --> 00:21:29,445 Speaker 2: it really speaks to another phenomenon that I see a 361 00:21:29,445 --> 00:21:32,125 Speaker 2: lot in cases like this. Again, we don't know exactly 362 00:21:32,125 --> 00:21:36,805 Speaker 2: what happened. Only two people know for sure, and unfortunately 363 00:21:36,805 --> 00:21:39,885 Speaker 2: one of them is dead. I will say I do 364 00:21:40,045 --> 00:21:42,765 Speaker 2: find some of James's claims credible. I don't know if 365 00:21:42,805 --> 00:21:46,165 Speaker 2: the police were maliciously prosecuting him, but it's true. There 366 00:21:46,205 --> 00:21:50,045 Speaker 2: is this fine line sometimes between having an investigative theory 367 00:21:50,045 --> 00:21:52,965 Speaker 2: and having tunnel vision, being closed minded, refusing to look 368 00:21:53,005 --> 00:21:55,445 Speaker 2: at evidence that doesn't support your theory of what happens. 369 00:21:56,005 --> 00:21:59,485 Speaker 2: It can be so easy for officers, even very experienced detectives, 370 00:21:59,525 --> 00:22:01,605 Speaker 2: to get this type of tunnel vision. I think it's 371 00:22:01,685 --> 00:22:04,205 Speaker 2: really important to always remember that. I say that to 372 00:22:04,245 --> 00:22:06,885 Speaker 2: myself too always every day. Try to remember to have 373 00:22:06,925 --> 00:22:09,605 Speaker 2: an open mind. You can think you know everything about 374 00:22:09,605 --> 00:22:12,565 Speaker 2: a case and it can turn on a dime. Another 375 00:22:12,605 --> 00:22:15,165 Speaker 2: thing that's important to remember is that for family members, 376 00:22:15,205 --> 00:22:17,965 Speaker 2: it is certainly understandable and natural to want to blame 377 00:22:18,045 --> 00:22:21,725 Speaker 2: someone when a family member dies, especially if police have 378 00:22:21,805 --> 00:22:25,365 Speaker 2: told you things. And sometimes I know people might want 379 00:22:25,405 --> 00:22:28,165 Speaker 2: to hold onto these things. But the truth is, sometimes 380 00:22:28,205 --> 00:22:31,485 Speaker 2: in life things happen. People have accidents, People do drown 381 00:22:31,525 --> 00:22:34,125 Speaker 2: in hot tubs. Sometimes I watch a lot of true 382 00:22:34,165 --> 00:22:37,205 Speaker 2: crime and it's like I find myself thinking everyone who 383 00:22:37,285 --> 00:22:40,525 Speaker 2: drowns in a hot tub or a bathtub was maybe 384 00:22:40,605 --> 00:22:43,765 Speaker 2: killed by a disgruntled spouse. But that's not really the reality. 385 00:22:44,165 --> 00:22:46,925 Speaker 2: There are so many accidental drownings in the United States, 386 00:22:47,005 --> 00:22:49,245 Speaker 2: especially as we talked about in an episode a couple 387 00:22:49,285 --> 00:22:53,725 Speaker 2: of weeks ago, for young intoxicated men. James's suit was 388 00:22:53,765 --> 00:22:56,405 Speaker 2: interesting for another reason because remember when I said, in 389 00:22:56,405 --> 00:22:59,085 Speaker 2: addition to the Alexa, there were more pieces of tech 390 00:22:59,125 --> 00:23:00,045 Speaker 2: in James's house. 391 00:23:00,485 --> 00:23:01,645 Speaker 1: Remember that water meter. 392 00:23:02,485 --> 00:23:06,885 Speaker 2: James claimed that police falsified those water memeats readings. He 393 00:23:06,965 --> 00:23:10,765 Speaker 2: also claimed Christine wrote a letter to the prosecutor saying 394 00:23:10,845 --> 00:23:13,485 Speaker 2: James was stalking her and her children in his car, 395 00:23:13,965 --> 00:23:16,685 Speaker 2: but James claimed that he was able to prove he 396 00:23:16,765 --> 00:23:19,125 Speaker 2: no longer owned that car during the time period of 397 00:23:19,125 --> 00:23:22,965 Speaker 2: his alleged stocking. James also filed a lawsuit against the 398 00:23:23,005 --> 00:23:26,485 Speaker 2: police department, and in that lawsuit, not only did he 399 00:23:26,525 --> 00:23:29,125 Speaker 2: claim that they were trying to frame him for Victor's murder, 400 00:23:29,485 --> 00:23:33,045 Speaker 2: he claimed that Christine had told police she was worried 401 00:23:33,085 --> 00:23:37,885 Speaker 2: about collecting on Victor's life insurance, so he alleged in 402 00:23:37,925 --> 00:23:41,605 Speaker 2: his lawsuit that Christine had conspired with the police to 403 00:23:41,685 --> 00:23:43,925 Speaker 2: create a story about a fight so she could collect 404 00:23:43,965 --> 00:23:48,045 Speaker 2: that insurance money. The lawsuit also alleged the detectives working 405 00:23:48,085 --> 00:23:53,885 Speaker 2: the case gave the medical examiner, Charles Cocus, erroneous information. Basically, 406 00:23:54,125 --> 00:23:57,005 Speaker 2: the lawsuit said, this is what motivated the medical examiner 407 00:23:57,005 --> 00:24:00,245 Speaker 2: to say the manner of death was homicide. In October 408 00:24:00,245 --> 00:24:04,965 Speaker 2: of twenty twenty, James dropped his lawsuit. The attorney for 409 00:24:05,085 --> 00:24:09,285 Speaker 2: the police department told the Democrat Gazette that the police 410 00:24:09,285 --> 00:24:11,925 Speaker 2: did not pay money or attempt to settle. He said 411 00:24:11,925 --> 00:24:15,965 Speaker 2: they had been completely vindicated. James's attorney stated they had 412 00:24:16,005 --> 00:24:19,805 Speaker 2: found negligence and incompetence, but they said that they concluded 413 00:24:19,885 --> 00:24:22,525 Speaker 2: that that was not enough for them to win a lawsuit. 414 00:24:23,565 --> 00:24:27,285 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty two, James and Christine reportedly reached a 415 00:24:27,325 --> 00:24:31,885 Speaker 2: settlement in their lawsuit. The amount was not disclosed. James 416 00:24:31,925 --> 00:24:34,205 Speaker 2: did speak out. He talked to Channel five News. He 417 00:24:34,245 --> 00:24:38,485 Speaker 2: said his life had been destroyed after these charges. He said, quote, 418 00:24:38,725 --> 00:24:41,445 Speaker 2: it destroys every aspect of your life to be accused 419 00:24:41,485 --> 00:24:45,885 Speaker 2: of something like this. I mean, you're just everything spiritually, emotionally, 420 00:24:46,165 --> 00:24:50,965 Speaker 2: financially end quote. He said that he respected the prosecutor, 421 00:24:51,045 --> 00:24:53,485 Speaker 2: Nathan Smith, for doing the right thing. He said the 422 00:24:53,525 --> 00:24:57,325 Speaker 2: prosecutor had integrity and that Nathan choosing to drop the 423 00:24:57,445 --> 00:25:01,045 Speaker 2: charges was the correct move. He said he was speaking 424 00:25:01,045 --> 00:25:04,125 Speaker 2: out because quote, I think the public needs to know 425 00:25:04,205 --> 00:25:07,325 Speaker 2: that it happens, happened to you within the span of 426 00:25:07,445 --> 00:25:08,925 Speaker 2: one night end quote. 427 00:25:09,325 --> 00:25:10,885 Speaker 1: James said that. 428 00:25:10,685 --> 00:25:12,765 Speaker 2: He had lost his job as a result of all this, 429 00:25:12,885 --> 00:25:16,045 Speaker 2: He lost custody of his son, and you know that 430 00:25:16,565 --> 00:25:17,885 Speaker 2: there are a lot of people out there in the 431 00:25:17,885 --> 00:25:21,365 Speaker 2: community who probably still think, even though the charges were dropped, 432 00:25:21,565 --> 00:25:23,325 Speaker 2: that he had something to do with it, or that 433 00:25:23,325 --> 00:25:24,605 Speaker 2: there was something sinister that. 434 00:25:24,605 --> 00:25:25,245 Speaker 1: Happened that night. 435 00:25:25,805 --> 00:25:28,365 Speaker 2: But he's trying his best to move forward and put 436 00:25:28,365 --> 00:25:32,805 Speaker 2: it behind him. What really happened to Victor Collins we 437 00:25:32,885 --> 00:25:35,685 Speaker 2: will never know for sure, but I do want to 438 00:25:35,725 --> 00:25:39,085 Speaker 2: introduce another possibility. As I said before, I've been looking 439 00:25:39,085 --> 00:25:42,125 Speaker 2: a lot into accidental drownings lately. It turns out when 440 00:25:42,125 --> 00:25:46,565 Speaker 2: someone's intoxicated, they can and do become overheated much more easily. 441 00:25:47,125 --> 00:25:50,565 Speaker 2: At Victor's height and weight and blood alcohol level, this 442 00:25:50,725 --> 00:25:55,005 Speaker 2: was certainly a possibility. The one hundred and three degree water, 443 00:25:55,445 --> 00:25:57,325 Speaker 2: if he sat in it for a long enough time, 444 00:25:57,565 --> 00:26:01,685 Speaker 2: could have led to blood vessels dilating, His blood pressure 445 00:26:01,765 --> 00:26:04,645 Speaker 2: might have dropped, and if he stood up suddenly, for example, 446 00:26:04,685 --> 00:26:06,165 Speaker 2: that could have caused Victor to fame. 447 00:26:07,045 --> 00:26:09,805 Speaker 1: He could have hit his head which led to him drowning. 448 00:26:11,045 --> 00:26:11,605 Speaker 1: Side note. 449 00:26:11,645 --> 00:26:14,405 Speaker 2: In my research, I found men are twice as likely 450 00:26:14,445 --> 00:26:17,405 Speaker 2: to die in hot tubs as women, and about four 451 00:26:17,445 --> 00:26:20,805 Speaker 2: times more likely in general to drown. Nearly eighty percent 452 00:26:20,885 --> 00:26:23,165 Speaker 2: of people who drown or mail. This is according to 453 00:26:23,245 --> 00:26:25,765 Speaker 2: the Cloward trial Lawyers, a law firm. They put a 454 00:26:25,805 --> 00:26:28,685 Speaker 2: bunch of statistics up on their website. It reminds me 455 00:26:28,725 --> 00:26:31,165 Speaker 2: a little bit of the recent case of Matthew Perry 456 00:26:31,165 --> 00:26:34,325 Speaker 2: from Friends. He had ketamine in a system which he 457 00:26:34,325 --> 00:26:37,885 Speaker 2: had apparently been using for a while, and he died 458 00:26:37,925 --> 00:26:42,965 Speaker 2: of an accidental drowning in his hot tub. The debate 459 00:26:43,085 --> 00:26:47,085 Speaker 2: over Alexa keeps coming up. In twenty twenty three, a 460 00:26:47,165 --> 00:26:49,765 Speaker 2: man in Wales named Daniel White was convicted of killing 461 00:26:49,765 --> 00:26:52,565 Speaker 2: his wife Angie, after the recordings on his echo were 462 00:26:52,565 --> 00:26:55,765 Speaker 2: turned over to police. He kicked open the bedroom door 463 00:26:55,965 --> 00:26:58,925 Speaker 2: and cut his wife's throat with a Stanley knife, and 464 00:26:59,005 --> 00:27:02,005 Speaker 2: in the recordings they could hear him sounding out of 465 00:27:02,045 --> 00:27:03,565 Speaker 2: breath running down. 466 00:27:03,765 --> 00:27:05,725 Speaker 1: Police said to get his none life. 467 00:27:07,285 --> 00:27:10,805 Speaker 2: Alexa's data continues to be requested from Amazon in murder cases. 468 00:27:11,725 --> 00:27:13,685 Speaker 2: It happened in a double murder in New Hampshire, and 469 00:27:13,725 --> 00:27:16,045 Speaker 2: it was part of a Florida case recently as well. 470 00:27:16,685 --> 00:27:19,205 Speaker 2: It even came up again in the Chris Watts case. 471 00:27:19,645 --> 00:27:22,045 Speaker 2: Chris Watts, of course, was the man who killed his 472 00:27:22,125 --> 00:27:25,645 Speaker 2: pregnant wife, Shanan and their two children when that FBI 473 00:27:25,725 --> 00:27:30,285 Speaker 2: interrogator was in the room with Chris, I remember him saying, 474 00:27:30,685 --> 00:27:32,725 Speaker 2: we know you have an Alexa in your home that 475 00:27:32,805 --> 00:27:36,365 Speaker 2: can record distress. Now, I know that law enforcement are 476 00:27:36,445 --> 00:27:39,805 Speaker 2: legally allowed to light of suspects in America, so that 477 00:27:39,925 --> 00:27:42,045 Speaker 2: might not have been true, but I do find myself 478 00:27:42,085 --> 00:27:46,965 Speaker 2: wondering about that technology. Was that actually bs or could 479 00:27:47,005 --> 00:27:51,205 Speaker 2: that be true? Are some of these devices programmed to 480 00:27:51,285 --> 00:27:54,845 Speaker 2: record distress? And what implications does that have both for 481 00:27:55,005 --> 00:27:59,685 Speaker 2: murder cases but also for our privacy. So now, when 482 00:27:59,685 --> 00:28:02,565 Speaker 2: I accidentally triggered the Alexa app and I don't realize 483 00:28:02,565 --> 00:28:05,405 Speaker 2: it until I see that little blue ring recording, I 484 00:28:05,685 --> 00:28:10,085 Speaker 2: do find myself wondering what happens if it here's a murder. 485 00:28:11,125 --> 00:28:22,645 Speaker 2: I'm Katherine Townsend. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. Helen 486 00:28:22,685 --> 00:28:24,765 Speaker 2: Gone Murder Line is a production of School of Humans 487 00:28:24,765 --> 00:28:27,925 Speaker 2: and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and narrated by me Katherine 488 00:28:27,965 --> 00:28:31,445 Speaker 2: Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts. Special thanks to Amy 489 00:28:31,485 --> 00:28:35,805 Speaker 2: Tubbs for her research assistance. Music contributed by Ben Sale. 490 00:28:35,885 --> 00:28:38,605 Speaker 2: This episode was sound designed and mixed by Noah camer. 491 00:28:39,365 --> 00:28:42,525 Speaker 2: Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and L. C. 492 00:28:42,645 --> 00:28:43,045 Speaker 1: Crowley. 493 00:28:43,525 --> 00:28:46,165 Speaker 2: Listen to Helen Gone ad free by subscribing to the 494 00:28:46,165 --> 00:28:49,365 Speaker 2: iHeart True Crime Plus channel on Apple Podcasts. You can 495 00:28:49,405 --> 00:28:52,765 Speaker 2: follow the show on Instagram at Helen Gone Pod. If 496 00:28:52,805 --> 00:28:54,445 Speaker 2: you have a case you'd like me and my team 497 00:28:54,485 --> 00:28:56,405 Speaker 2: to look into, you can reach out to us at 498 00:28:56,405 --> 00:28:58,965 Speaker 2: our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven eight seven 499 00:28:59,045 --> 00:29:01,645 Speaker 2: four four six ' one four or five. That's six 500 00:29:01,725 --> 00:29:04,885 Speaker 2: seven eight seven four four six one four or five. 501 00:29:13,405 --> 00:29:14,605 Speaker 1: School of Humans