1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you welcome to Stuff 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick. And we're back with part two of 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: our discussion of the fundamental attribution error, our tendency to 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: overestimate disposition all causes of behavior like innate character traits 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: and attitudes you have and underestimate the role of situational 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 1: influences on how people act. Yeah, And we kicked off 9 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: the first episode by talking about the classic sci fi 10 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: horror film Alien and uh, you know, figuring out the 11 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: characters and the motivations and the actions of of Ripley 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: and Dallas in the early goings of that film. Yeah, 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: specifically in the scene where Dallas gets back with you know, 14 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: John Hurd has a an alien face hugger stuck to 15 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: his face and he says, let us in the ship, 16 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: and Ripley says, no, I can't do that. Unfortunately, she 17 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: gets ignored overridden. They come inside anyway, and we discussed 18 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: what caused them to make the decisions they make. Now, 19 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: that was in the context of uh, emphasizing the distinction 20 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: between situational explanations and dispositional explanations. You could say Ripley 21 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: was trying to obey quart quarantine orders because she's orderly 22 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: and logical and calm under pressure. Or you could say 23 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: that she was doing it because maybe the cabin was 24 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: cold and she was uncomfortable, or because she was nervous 25 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: because of the strange situation they were in. And of course, 26 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: in a way, both those things can be true, like 27 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: people's actions are always an outgrowth of both who they 28 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,759 Speaker 1: are as a person and what they bring to the table, 29 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: but also of the situation they're in and the unique 30 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: circumstances they face. And the the issue with fundamental attribution 31 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: error is just that we tend to overestimate the role 32 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: of the former and underestimate the role of the ladder. Yeah, 33 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: we want to we want to explain everything, uh, you know, 34 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: based on it, like a simplistic Dungeons and Dragons alignment 35 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: table that always explains their behavior. I guess a lot 36 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: of people aren't familiar with Dungeons and Dragons. Robert, can 37 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: you briefly explain what alignments are in D and D? Okay, 38 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: so it's almost impossible that you haven't seen this, and 39 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: by you, I mean everybody listening memified yea, yeah, you've 40 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 1: seen ammified. But there will be this this grid right 41 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: of of what nine squares showing where you are on 42 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: on a grid of of lawful neutral and um and 43 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: chaotic tendencies as well as on good neutral evil tendencies. 44 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: So these these grids are these are the two axes 45 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: and the cross reference, right, So you can be chaotic 46 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: good or chaotic neutral or chaotic evil. You can be 47 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: lawful good, lawful evil, that kind of thing, right, And 48 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: it's so you know, it's a it's it's a guide 49 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: in Dungeons and Dragons to determine how players are going 50 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: to role play their characters and how they're going to 51 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: interact with monsters and non player characters, and how a 52 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: dungeon master is going to incorporate those beings as well, 53 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: uh and how and and and so forth. But I 54 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: think that the memification of it really shows sort of 55 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 1: the the simple nature of it at times, you know, 56 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: where it's like, Okay, we're gonna I'm gonna take nine 57 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: characters from this television series I like, or from politics 58 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:26,839 Speaker 1: or from what have you, and put them on that chart. 59 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: Put them on that chart and just boil them down 60 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: to um to to. This is one statement of their identity. 61 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: But one of the funny things is, I think the 62 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,119 Speaker 1: more realistic and complex the characters and the story are, 63 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: the harder it is to fit them into a grid 64 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: evenly right, Because the more realistic people are, the more 65 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: their their behavior varies, the less consistent they are in 66 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: how their ethics are applied, because in fact, in reality, 67 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: people's behavior is highly situational. You know, they act one 68 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: they're lawful good in one scenario, and then depending on 69 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: a few you know, the temperature of the room and 70 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: who's there and what they're feeling in the moment, they 71 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: are lawful evil or chaotic evil in a different scenario. Yeah, 72 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: you know, you're playing ads and dragons. You're you're so 73 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: concerned about the alignment of the minotaur, and we don't 74 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: think about what the labyrinth is doing to the minotaur. 75 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: So now, I think it's funny that you bring up 76 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: alignments with respect to alien and aliens, because I think 77 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: people don't often do this. But I've thought about it before, 78 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: and I have a hypothesis. It is that Ellen Ripley 79 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: changes alignment between alien and Aliens. Yeah. In Alien, she 80 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: I would say is lawful, neutral. She's not especially selfless 81 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: or helpful to other people, but she does obey the 82 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: rules and do what she's supposed to do. In Aliens, 83 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: a very different ethic emerges in Aliens. She's more rebellious 84 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: and rule breaking, but in the spirit of being good 85 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: and helpful to others. I'd say in Aliens she is 86 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: chaotic good. Okay, yeah, that would make sense. I mean, 87 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: she's more the she's she's a bail Will figure in 88 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: Aliens quite literally, like she she goes back in you know, 89 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: she dives down and does battle with the monster's mother. 90 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: But I love this transition. I mean some people might say, well, 91 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 1: that's inconsistent. You know, she acts one way in the 92 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: first movie and she's kind of a different character in 93 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: the second movie. That's what people are like. The circumstances 94 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: in their lives change, and it changes the way you 95 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: behave This is, in fact, the difference between Alien and 96 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: Aliens is a great illustration of the failure of F A. 97 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,799 Speaker 1: E type thinking when you start trying to box people 98 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: in based on limited data points about their behavior in 99 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: the past. Absolutely, now, I guess we'll leave we'll leave 100 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: the listeners to decide what her alignment would be then 101 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: an alien three and in alien resurrection, alien resurrectional what 102 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: what is the alignment of a pile of horse maneuver? Oh? 103 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: I think they're beautiful things about alien resurrection. We can 104 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: fight about this someday. All right. Well, uh, well, let's 105 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: let's move on from from the the alien universe now 106 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: and jump back into our discussion of f A So 107 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: we've been talking about the fundamental attribution error, the tendency 108 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: we have to more often than not explain other people's 109 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: behavior through through disposition, all explanations things about them as 110 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: a person, and to underestimate the role of situational constraints 111 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: and external factors dictating their behavior. Now, one thing I 112 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: was wondering when I was reading about this is how 113 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: much could this vary between different different types of cultures 114 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: and backgrounds? And how much is this just a fundamental 115 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: part of every human brain? And it looks like there 116 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: is some role that culture plays in how strong the 117 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: f A E is? Right? Yeah, and and specifically, um, 118 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: what differences you're going to see between West and East, 119 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: between American culture and uh and and say Chinese culture 120 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: or Korean culture, Japanese culture, etcetera. Um, yeah, a little 121 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: American exceptionalism if you want to call it that in 122 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: regards to our tendency to engage f A. Let me 123 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: guess we're doing worse. Um yeah, We're We're worse. That's 124 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: that's the bed, the basic uh take home. But but 125 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: we're gonna get into the details here. This is uh. 126 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: This comes from a really cool paper um titled cultural, 127 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: cultural and Causal Cognition from Current Directions and Psychological Science 128 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: from the year two thousand and This is from Nisbet 129 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: and Northern Zion, who had mentioned earlier. So basically here 130 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: here's the idea. So for a while, social psychologist assumed 131 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: that the way we make causal judgments is universal, that is, 132 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: the same across all cultures. And this, of course is 133 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: always one of the potential problems for a given study 134 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: or a hypothesis, especially as it relates to uh uh 135 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: the inner workings of the mind? Right does does this 136 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: h view? Does it speak to all populations or is 137 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: it based on a narrow select action that doesn't account 138 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: for differences in culture, culture, socio economic level, gender, etcetera. 139 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: I mean, the classic example of this is when you 140 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: have a small study that is using only college students 141 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: East Coast college students in the United States and extrapolating 142 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: from that to something about the way brains work in 143 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: Homo sapiens exactly, you know, maybe not everybody's brain is 144 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: the same as what's prevalent among that group, right, So uh, 145 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: basically this paper speaks to that, like looks at the 146 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: cultural differences in f A to first to see if 147 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: there there is you know, there there are differences, and 148 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: then also to talk about why that could be and 149 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: so um norn Zion and nes Bit. They point out 150 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: that subsequent studies do seem to reveal that f A 151 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: is harder to demonstrate in Asian populations. This was like 152 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: multiple studies, multiple studies, so just to taste here of them. 153 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: Study from Miller showed that Hindu Indians lean toward a 154 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: situational explanation for ordinary life event. A nineteen ninety four 155 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: study from Morris and Ping found that Chinese newspapers and 156 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: Chinese students living in America were more likely to explain 157 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: murders by both Chinese and American perpetrators in situational and 158 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: societal terms, while American newspapers and American students tended to 159 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: focus on the perpetrators presumed at dispositions, their internal trades 160 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: and then uh N. Repetition of the Jones and Harris 161 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: experiment from sixty seven on Korean subjects found the Koreans 162 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: in the study tended to believe that the individual held 163 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: the views expressed in their essay, but flipped when they 164 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: were required to write an essay themselves and did so, 165 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: you know, more readily than than the Americans. Also in 166 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: Morris and Ping, they showed a cartoon of a fish 167 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: too American and Chinese test subjects, and the Chinese subjects 168 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 1: attributed its behavior to external and group factors, while Americans 169 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: favored internal factors. Um Another study found the same thing 170 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: with quote schematically drawn ambiguous physical events such as a 171 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: round object dropping through a surface and returning to the surface. Okay, 172 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: so in that last example, I think that's that's really 173 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 1: essential here, is because we're not even talking about human 174 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: behavior or uh, you know, the an anthropomorphized behavior of 175 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: a cartoon fish, but we're talking about the physical world itself. 176 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: We're talking about the role uh that environment has on objects. 177 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: Americans focused on the properties of the ball, while the 178 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: Chinese test subjects focused on the holistic reality in which 179 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: the ball existed. Oh well, that almost makes me think 180 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: of Aristotle. Like, you know, when Aristotle was trying to 181 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: explain physics, he would constantly make appeals to like the 182 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: nature of a thing determines how it moves and what 183 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: happens to it like that, Uh, you know, like a 184 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: rock falls because it has the characteristic of gravity. Yeah, 185 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: and that that is a huge part of what we're 186 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: going to talk about here and part of the reasoning 187 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: that they suspect. So the authors point out that it's 188 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: not a case of Asian populations not using f A, 189 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: so they do use it to some extent. What's the 190 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: exception then, Well, it's basically, if there's not enough evidence 191 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: to support a societal or situational explanation, then they'll fall 192 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: back on f A reasoning as well. Okay, I mean basically, 193 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: you know, it comes down to how are you going 194 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: to make judgments about about the world around you, you know, 195 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: when and where what are you going to give more 196 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: weight to. And they're saying they're going to give more 197 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: weight to situational um and environmental societal but they're also 198 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: going to fall back on nature as well well, so 199 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: they'll use situational reasoning when they have some kind of 200 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: foothold there, when there's some piece of information they can 201 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: draw from, right, So that that makes it look kind 202 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: of like it's like the F A E might be 203 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: sort of like a baseline human tendency, but that you 204 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: can be culturally conditioned to remember more off and to 205 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 1: take into account circumstantial information when you have access to it. 206 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, I'm not sure they didn't 207 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: really talk so much about what could be the baseline, 208 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: Like so much of this paper focuses on this is 209 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 1: what we see in the Western model, and this is 210 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: in the Eastern. And ultimately they make an argument for 211 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: aspects of those cultures, especially the the the key influential cultures, 212 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: namely Greek culture in the Western, Chinese culture in the East, 213 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: but they don't really get into it, like what would 214 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: would a non Chinese, non Western civilization, like you get 215 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: into the whole discussion of where a culture and civilization, 216 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: how it arises and how do you how would you 217 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: even strip away the tendency to lean one way or 218 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: the other. Yeah, well, I was just referring to the 219 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: fact that that you mentioned about even the Eastern test 220 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 1: subjects falling back on F A E when they didn't 221 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: have any kind of circumstances that they knew about to 222 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: appeal to. Right, it would seem to be that both 223 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: are natural tools and the toolbox. But then culture uh 224 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: would have UH an influence on which one is the 225 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: more dominant measurement system. Okay, So, but basically the authors 226 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: are talking about cultural differences in causal cognition here, and 227 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: they state that one of the key factors really comes 228 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: down to the differences in intellectual histories in East Asia 229 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: and in Europe from about the sixth century BC onward. 230 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: In this the authors argue, we have to consider the 231 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: differences in the key foundational intellectual cultures at play here, 232 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: Greek culture and Chinese culture. So these are you know 233 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: that basically like these are just very foundational um cultural 234 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: systems that end up influencing everything else. Yeah, produced early 235 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: intellectual texts that have been ceaselessly referred back to within 236 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: the region. Right, So you mentioned Aristotle earlier, and they 237 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: point out that the Greeks focused on analytics, categorizing objects 238 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: based on their attributes, and this was used to explain behavior. Yeah, 239 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: I mean again, this Aristotle's constantly trying to appeal to 240 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 1: the nature of a thing to explain why the thing 241 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: did what it did. And then meanwhile, the Chinese focused 242 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: on a holistic view that focused more on the field 243 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: in which the object existed and interacted. That's interesting, now, 244 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: why would this be the case. Well, the authors speculate 245 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: that China's holistic leanings might stem from an earlier shift 246 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: to intensive farming, leading to a more cooperative, collectivist culture. Meanwhile, 247 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: Greek geography prohibits extensive farming operations. Instead, there was a 248 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: focus on domesticated animals, on fishing, and on trade, and 249 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: this led to a highly individualistic culture. I don't know 250 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: if I'm ready to jump on board with that as 251 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: the reading of these causes in history, but I don't 252 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: know if I'd ever heard it put that way. That 253 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: is an interesting take, uh. And of course, if if 254 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: these factors are in place, we have to consider to 255 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: consider just how much of those Keystone cultures and the 256 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: cultures that grew out of them are based in this 257 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: line of thinking. Um, I mentioned I was going to 258 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: bring this around to dungeons and dragons earlier, so I 259 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: knew you would In reading this paper and just discussing 260 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: f A in general, um, I think back to the 261 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: monster manuals of Dungeons and Dragons. Um. You know, these 262 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: are the books that are full of page after page 263 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: of monster uh and stats about their abilities and some 264 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: information on their you know, their background, how they work, 265 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: and how you how you basically have the players in 266 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: a game fight it. They're just wickedly Aristotelian. Yeah, and 267 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: you know they basically function like beast theories from the 268 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: classic tradition, uh, from the classic Western tradition. Here is 269 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: a list of things, and here are their attributes. Uh. 270 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: But while a good monster manual, you know, we'll discuss 271 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: a little bit about the creatures nature, natural habitat and 272 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: how it functions within that habitat. I think it's safe 273 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: to say that there is a strong f A leaning 274 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: here absolutely, because the they have alignments. The alignment is 275 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: the key, Like, yeah, there's you know, there's some stats 276 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: that tell you exactly what it can do, but it's 277 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: that alignment that institute that's where my eyes often go, 278 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: like sometimes, you know, that's the first thing I look at, like, 279 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: what is the essential nature of this monster? Is it chaotic? Good? 280 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: Is it chaotic evil? Is it neutral? Is it lawful good? Um? 281 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: And and that will determine almost everything you need to 282 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: know about how it is probably going to interact with 283 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: the character. Yeah, they have a uniform characteristic way in 284 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: which they behave. And you know the fact is in reality, 285 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: Uh well, I guess in reality there aren't d n 286 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: D monsters, but if there were, they would be animals, right, 287 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: And animals do tend to react to situations then highly 288 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: ways that are highly dependent on what the situation is 289 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: that are not always predictable from just fundamental knowledge about 290 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: the innate character of that individual animal. Well, I mean 291 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: there are animals in the Monster Manual. They're in the back, 292 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: you know, but there, and they tend to be like 293 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: true neutral, right, which you know, again it comes down 294 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: to situation, like a a a cornered, starving animal is 295 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: going to behave differently than a than a fully fed 296 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: animal out in the open. You know, that's just part 297 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: of it. Well, I mean then again, on the other hand, 298 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously none of what we're talking about today 299 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: denies that people have certain tendencies. There are people do 300 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: have tendencies. What I think this should down to is 301 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: that maybe monsters and characters in D and D, if 302 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: they have alignments, their alignments should be I don't know, 303 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: should apply sixty percent of the time or something, rather 304 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: than thinking, if you do one thing that violates your alignment, 305 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: now you've got to do an alignment check because people 306 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: just aren't like that. People sort of act out of 307 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: character based on circumstances all the time. I've seen some 308 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: material like trying to apply this kind of nuance to say, say, 309 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: creatures like the drought, uh, the the evil subterranean elves 310 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: of dungeons and dragons. And part of that is, I think, 311 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: you know, because there's been there, there's a lot of 312 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: increased action around the drought and creating drought characters that 313 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: were maybe not evil or not completely evil and a 314 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: little more uh complex. But I've seen some people like 315 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: discussing like what percentage of the drought population um are 316 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 1: evil and then which percentage happens to be good? And 317 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess it gets kind of messy 318 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: when you have a system that is ultimately based in 319 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: giving anybody out there like numerical stats and a definitive alignment. Well, yeah, 320 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess part of the problem with D 321 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: and D is similar to the problem you're encountering in fiction, Whereas, 322 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: like you know, in fiction, a character needs to have 323 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: characteristic behavior so that you understand the role they play 324 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: in the story. You know, for them to just kind 325 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: of act randomly is not very efficient in terms of storytelling, 326 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,959 Speaker 1: and it doesn't feel very satisfying to the audience. I'm 327 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: sure the same is true in the game. All right, 328 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,719 Speaker 1: And you know, ultimately, as we've discussed on the show recently, uh, 329 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: narrative is a lie and uh and so is gaming 330 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: to a certain extent. So, but that anyway, you have 331 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,719 Speaker 1: to go back to our narrative episodes for more nuance 332 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: on what we're talking about there. All right, time for 333 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: a quick break, but we will be right back, and 334 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: we're back in discussing this division though between East and West, 335 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 1: between Greek culture and Chinese culture. The author's point to 336 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: the differing strengths and weaknesses of Greek and Chinese science 337 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: and mathematics as potential evidence here. So I'm going to 338 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 1: read just a segment from their paper. Quote. Greek science 339 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: looked for universal rules to explain events and was concerned 340 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: with categorizing objects with respect to their essences Chinese science, 341 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: some people would say it was a technology only, though 342 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: a technology vastly superior to that if the Greeks was 343 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: more pragmatic and concrete and was not concerned with foundations 344 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: or universal laws. The difference between the Greek and Chinese 345 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: orientations is well captured by Aristotle's physics, which explain the 346 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: behavior of an object without reference to the field in 347 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: which it occurs. Thus, a stone sinks into water because 348 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: it has the property of gravity, and a piece of 349 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: wood floats because it has the property of levity. In contrast, 350 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: the principle that events always occur in some context or 351 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: field of forces was understood early on in China. That's interesting. 352 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: I've never heard it put that way, but uh, that 353 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,479 Speaker 1: does kind of make sense based on what I know 354 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: that where more Western natural philosophers would have seen, you know, 355 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: things and bodies that the Eastern thinkers saw a world. Yeah. 356 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: So the idea here is that much of this division 357 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: and thinking remains despite the enhanced interconnectedness of the modern world. 358 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 1: And uh, the cool thing is that we can actually 359 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: test for this to a certain extent, or at least 360 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: we can test for what's known as field dependence via 361 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: a simple rod and frame test. So I can't remember 362 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: if we've actually discussed a rod and frame test on 363 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: the show before. I'm not sure. Tell me about it, okay. 364 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: So basically, the situation as you look through a long 365 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: box like frame at a rod. I found an image 366 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: of one of these and I put it in in 367 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: our notes, Joe. But it's essentially like looking looking into 368 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: a box like they're looking into the top of a 369 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: box and at the bottom there's a rod, and this 370 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: particular example, the rod appears to be glowing like it's 371 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 1: a light stick. And in this experiment, you can independently 372 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: rotate the rod or the frame, often via opposing joysticks 373 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: on a gaming remote, and the test subject makes adjustments 374 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: and then declares when the rod is finally vertical. So 375 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: you can adjust the the the object or subject, and 376 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: you can also adjust the field or the box in 377 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: order to get the proper alignment. And then whoever's uh 378 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: you know, giving the test, they can see you know 379 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: where you're making the most adjustments. Uh So, the extent 380 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 1: to which the orientation of the frame influences judgments of 381 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: the verticality of the rod, that is going to tell 382 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: us um, you know what your field dependence is and um. 383 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: East Asian participants, mostly Chinese, have been shown to be 384 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: more field dependent than Americans in experiments by g Ping 385 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: and Nesbitting. Yeah. Uh. Study from Matsuda and has Bit 386 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: highlighted these differences between American and Japanese individuals via exposure 387 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: to underwater scenes with focal fish. So that's you know, 388 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: the idea that you know there are certain fish that 389 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: would capture your attention. The fish in this case are 390 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:21,239 Speaker 1: the rod and the the The underwater environment is the 391 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: box the frame. But the general ideas that subjects from 392 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: Asian cultures are more likely to see things in terms 393 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: of the environment, to take total environmental information into account. Yeah, 394 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: and uh. I found this really interesting having recently enjoyed 395 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: a lot of snorkeling on a on a trip one 396 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: of my family to Belieze, and uh, you know, these 397 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: beautiful coral reef environments, rich environment, a lot going on. 398 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: We'd be out there for an hour or two at 399 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: a time, and I'd have to remind myselves at times 400 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: at times to take it all in holistically, because I'd 401 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,360 Speaker 1: have a tendency to focus in on key focal fish 402 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: or the search for larger specimens. Right, I'd be looking 403 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: around like, oh, I want I really want to see 404 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: a big ray. I want to see another one of 405 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: those nurse sharks. I want to see the remarkable larger specimens. 406 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: And then I would have to stop and realize but 407 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: but no, wait, I need to take it all in, 408 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: like it's the coral reef. Is this uh, this this 409 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: this rich environment, you know, it's kind of like I 410 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: guess an example of this, too might be if you 411 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: were at an art museum. You're looking at a mural, 412 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: say like an enormous you know, enormous wall piece of 413 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: big trip dick or something, and you might be tempted to, 414 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: you know, go from this detail to this detail and 415 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: take each one in the symbolism of each little detail, 416 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: and and then you have to remind yourself to back 417 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: up a little bit and take in the whole painting, 418 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: because it's also speaking on that level as well. Yeah, 419 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: but it can be very hard to turn the spotlight off, 420 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: especially once you've you've either if you have a preference 421 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: for one style of thinking over the other, or you 422 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: are actively engaging in one or the other. Um just 423 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: a couple of further notes from the authors on this 424 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: this piece on Eastern Western differences. They said that language 425 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: of the test did not impact the results, so that 426 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: would seem to prevent a purely linguistic argument for for 427 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: f A. Uh, though of course I would imagine languages 428 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: would also be affected by two and a half millennia 429 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: under a specific educational culture. Yeah, I would think so. Uh. 430 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: They point out that most individuals compared in these studies 431 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: had otherwise similar demographics. So yeah, for instance, the these 432 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: the tests that had say an American student in a 433 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: Chinese student or in America, they would supposedly have very 434 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: similar demographics otherwise, and then differences in cognitive abilities were 435 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: also accounted for. Well, this makes me wonder if in general, 436 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: bad first impressions are less of a problem in China. 437 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: I don't know, that would be. That would be an interesting, 438 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: um subject to to look up. It becomes difficult, though, 439 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: I imagine, because in a lot of this you're when 440 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: you're talking about you know, cultural tendency, these there are 441 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: there a whole lot of factors that are in play, 442 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: right right, um, that may or may not be um, 443 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: you know, explained by focusing on f A. I don't know, Well, Yeah. 444 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: Then again, some of the variations that we see based 445 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: on the cultures might be different depending on what types 446 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: of information or tests you're talking about. Like I could wonder, 447 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: I wonder if maybe some cultural groups would be more 448 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,360 Speaker 1: likely to ignore the f a tendency on like judging 449 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: attitudes held you know, like in the essay reading or 450 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: something like that, but might still display it in terms 451 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: of judging how friendly somebody is, you know what I mean. Alright, 452 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back. 453 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: Thank you. All Right, we're back. Let's jump back in. 454 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: So we've discussed the you know, the difficulty from moving 455 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: out of one mindset into the other. Uh So, I 456 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: think a lot of people are probably wondering, like, what 457 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: can I what can I do? What are some steps 458 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: I can take? Especially since it's quite clear that the 459 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 1: fundamental attribution error is harmful and causes us to make 460 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: poor judgments that do not accurately predict people's behavior. So 461 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: they're like, factually not very helpful, and then also can 462 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: be like socially harmful, can lead us to prejudice and stereotyping. 463 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 1: And yeah, so it's not just a situation of like 464 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's awful, but it works. No, 465 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: it does, it's it's it's it's both awful and doesn't 466 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: really work all that well. So we should we should, 467 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 1: you know, find ways to lean into the other ways 468 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: of figuring out, so what's going on? Yeah, And so, 469 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: as we've discussed the prevalence of f A E doesn't PEA. 470 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean people never take situational factors into consideration. 471 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 1: They obviously do. It's just that on average, we consider 472 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: situation far less than we should, and we chalk things 473 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: up to disposition far more than we should. And so 474 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: are there ways to defeat this bias in ourselves and 475 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: in others, to take situation into account more comprehensively and 476 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: to become more rational. One fix is not perfect, but 477 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: it's very simple. It's just that FA I mentioned this earlier. 478 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: It happens easily and automatically, and it can actually, I think, 479 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: be fairly readily overcome with cognitive effort. Some biases are 480 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: just easier than others to think yourself out of, and 481 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 1: to a certain extent, this actually appears to be one 482 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: of them. I was reading about one study about this 483 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: in a textbook called Applied Social psychology Understanding and Addressing 484 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: social and practical problems by Schneider at all, and it 485 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: was discussing research that showed that, in some cases, if 486 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: you prime people to think about situational explanations, they're more 487 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: likely to consider them. Okay, that's fairly straightforward, right. If 488 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: you have students watch a silent film of a woman 489 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: having a conversation displaying nervous behaviors like biting her nails 490 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: or twirling her hair or something. Uh, they found that 491 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: if you prime subjects by telling them that she's discussing 492 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: a sensitive or anxious topic um versus telling the people 493 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: watching the video that she's discussing a relaxing topic, the 494 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: students who saw her acting anxious while discussing a relaxing 495 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: topic were more likely to attribute anxiety to her as 496 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: a character trait, whereas the ones who thought she was 497 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: discussing an anxious topic were more likely to take the 498 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: situation into consideration. So that's fairly straightforward. But it does 499 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: actually seem to help just make people aware of the 500 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: situation directly ask them to consider it. Yeah, that's that's interesting, 501 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 1: Like discussing anxiety here, because I feel like this is 502 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 1: an example of where, like anybody who deals with anxiety, 503 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: you probably don't think of it as like part of you, right, 504 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: I mean, we very often think of it as this 505 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: thing that I deal with as opposed to this thing 506 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: that is a part of my identity. You know. Um. 507 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: I feel like it's easy to fall into these traps 508 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: when considering other people. But like the same person who 509 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: was like, oh, that person she's anxious, or that she 510 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: is an anxious person, they would not view themselves in 511 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: the same light dealing with say anxiety. Of course not 512 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: end if you just tell them like, she's dealing with 513 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: an anxious or an anxiety causing situation. That mirror priming 514 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: gets people to take that into account and be like, oh, okay, 515 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: well the way she's acting is probably reasonable then you know, 516 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: um now obviously, so it works in that scenario. But 517 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: obviously this doesn't always eliminate f A when you ask 518 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: people to consider the situation because think of the earlier studies, right, 519 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: like the essays they would tell people so and so 520 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: has been assigned to this position to advocate, and it's 521 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: still and still even though they were asked to consider 522 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 1: the situation, they didn't consider it as much as they 523 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: should have. They think, you know, even though Jeffrey's acting 524 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: this way because he's been assigned to it's actually also 525 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: reflective of how he really is as a person. But 526 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: this one study, I guess at least, does seem to 527 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: indicate that sometimes priming people to consider situational factors can 528 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: make a difference. And again, I think this is because 529 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: it seems we make dispositional attributions. We commit the fa 530 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: quickly and automatically. It's something we do with no effort 531 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: at all. You just automatically jump there and and assign 532 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: people character traits based on very limited data. And I 533 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: think it's just more likely to take some deliberate cognitive 534 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: effort at correction to take situational factors into consideration. Thus, 535 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: if you want to reduce your commission of the f A, 536 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: try to find out more about the situations of the 537 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: people you're judging and think deliberately about situational factors and 538 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: encourage others to do the same. It appears, at least 539 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: in some cases, it makes a difference. Also, consider what 540 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: we talked about earlier. Remember that people were less likely 541 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: to make the FAE when they had multiple interactions with 542 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: the same person and saw how they behave differently under 543 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: different situational constraints. So you know more about people, get 544 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: to know people better. You're probably going to come to 545 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: see how they are influenced by situational factors and judge 546 00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: them less on the basis of the single data points. Yeah. Again, 547 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: and this is all I think extremely crucial, and I 548 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: think it you know, it backs up a lot of 549 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: the advice that we're given about taking people's like full 550 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: uh you know, their history and their situation into account 551 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: when when judging them. Um. But because you know, ultimately, 552 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: anybody you encounter in life, they have not been assigned uh, 553 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: their personal essay by you know, somebody carrying out a 554 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: scientific test. They've been assigned their personal essay by fate, 555 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: by circumstances, by luck, by luck by, by all these 556 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: these factors in our lives. You know, then they're but 557 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: for fortune go you or I and um. We have 558 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: to force ourselves to open our eyes to that reality, 559 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: just as we would all want other people to be 560 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: open to that reality in ourselves. Yes, that that's absolutely right. 561 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: And one last thing I would say about recommendations for 562 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: dealing with this is remember that there's some indication that 563 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: may be manipulating perspective helps people with with getting rid 564 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: of the f A tendency. If you if you literally 565 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: try to look through somebody else's eyes, I mean, I 566 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: guess you could try to do this just with your imagination, 567 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: then suddenly you are less likely to ignore situational circumstances 568 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: that may be causing people to act in a way 569 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: they wouldn't normally act. Yeah, ultimately, this is what letter 570 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: Face was trying to do. He was just trying to 571 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: see through other people's eyes, through other people's faces. I 572 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: don't know this kind of stretch, but just to bring 573 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: it back around to films, I can't top that. I 574 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: guess we have to end there all right. But obviously 575 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: this is something we would love to hear from everyone 576 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: about because everybody has, uh has some experience with FA. Yeah, 577 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: you've been judged unfairly on this basis you've done this 578 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: to other people. It happens every day, right and uh 579 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: And likewise, UH, I would love to hear from listeners 580 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: who can provide some of their own insight on the 581 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: whole Western Eastern divide, Uh, you know, cultural differences there. 582 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: And then also, hey, we talked about a few different 583 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: fictions here. We talked about the alien, we talked about 584 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: Harry Potter, we talked about dungeons and dragons, and ever 585 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: so briefly, leather face. So we would we'd love to 586 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: hear from you the listeners, your your interpretations of those 587 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: properties based on f A as well. In the meantime, 588 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: if you want to listen to more episodes of Stuff 589 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, head on over to Stuff to 590 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mothership. That's where 591 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: you will find it all. And if you want to 592 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: support the show, really the best thing you can do is, 593 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: you know, spread the word, but also rate and review 594 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: us wherever you have the power to do so. Wherever 595 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: you get this podcast, it really helps us out. Uh. 596 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: It's a tremendous, tremendous aid. Likewise, we mentioned Invention earlier 597 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: in the recent episodes on photography. 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Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production 608 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from 609 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 610 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.