Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftsett's podcast. My guest
Speaker 1: today is Paul Jane Way of Seeing Paul in the
Speaker 1: Broken Bulls. Paul, you have a new album. Tell me
Speaker 1: about it.
Speaker 2: Oh, well, we're really excited. Uh, it's it feels kind
Speaker 2: of like for us, kind of a refresh or renew
Speaker 2: kind of thing for us. We've this is our sixth record,
Speaker 2: and uh we've recorded it at Fame studios and muscle shows,
Speaker 2: which you know, we've always had a connection with to
Speaker 2: that area. Some of the guys from the band are
Speaker 2: from there. Uh, some of the guys in the band
Speaker 2: lived there, so we've always kind of had a connection there.
Speaker 2: And we're really excited. I mean, like I said, we
Speaker 2: felt like it's, like I said, it's our sixth record,
Speaker 2: so we kind of felt like one through five we
Speaker 2: kind of whatever book we were trying to write or
Speaker 2: try to prove through ourselves or whatever it was, that's
Speaker 2: kind of over. And now it feels like kind of
Speaker 2: a renewed, refreshed thing because that and that's why we
Speaker 2: went with the self titled record, because it felt like
Speaker 2: the renewal or refresher.
Speaker 1: What's the songwriting process for the band.
Speaker 2: It's it varies. We've done it many different ways. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, we've done it. When we first started, it
Speaker 2: was sitting in a room and working out the songs
Speaker 2: right and maybe something will happen. And we kind of
Speaker 2: got away from that just with technology and you know,
Speaker 2: it's just easier to do to do bedroom demos and
Speaker 2: build it from there and you know, all different qualities.
Speaker 2: But we thought with this record, we were like, all right,
Speaker 2: let's get back in this. Let's let's get back in
Speaker 2: a room and play. And so we did. We did that,
Speaker 2: which was great. Then we also I was working on
Speaker 2: another project with a guy named eg White who ended
Speaker 2: up producing this record, and me and him in London
Speaker 2: ended up writing a couple of songs that only a
Speaker 2: couple of those ended up on the record as well.
Speaker 1: So how do you no Egg White? How did you
Speaker 1: end up working with him?
Speaker 2: So I have I have a solo deal with Records
Speaker 2: as part of the Columbia Sony team and uh. And
Speaker 2: so the band was kind of in a lull of
Speaker 2: you know, we just weren't doing much and so I
Speaker 2: was like, okay, I'm going to be an open book
Speaker 2: instead of instead of turning everything down, which was my tendency.
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm going to be an open book.
Speaker 2: I'll go write with people, I'll go try anything, and
Speaker 2: if I you know, ultimately, if I don't like it,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to use it, right and uh and
Speaker 2: through that process we I met Egg and there was
Speaker 2: just kind of instant chemistry and I we had similar
Speaker 2: sensibilities and it just really it really clicked, and it
Speaker 2: was it was you know, it's one of those I
Speaker 2: didn't know if that was out there. You know, it's
Speaker 2: like finding finding, finding a spouse or something.
Speaker 1: Okay, lets let's back up for a second. You have
Speaker 1: a solo deal with Records, which is its own company,
Speaker 1: but now your albums are coming out on Ato. The
Speaker 1: group albums, the.
Speaker 2: Group albums are actually coming out. We were doing our
Speaker 2: own label, but thirty Tigers is marketing industributing on so
Speaker 2: it's a while.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna walk through this. The first label is
Speaker 1: single Lock. What is single Lock?
Speaker 2: So Single Lock is a label out of Florence, Alabia.
Speaker 2: Most of the muscle show the Shoals area and they
Speaker 2: were friends of ours. They were starting this, you know,
Speaker 2: starting this new label, and we weren't the first act
Speaker 2: on it, but we were one of the first and
Speaker 2: I think that one actually that label started ended up
Speaker 2: being distributed through thirty Tigers as well, so we worked
Speaker 2: we used thirty Tigers label services as well for that
Speaker 2: first record.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, let's get into a little business. First record,
Speaker 1: Boy is released by Single Lock. Does the band own
Speaker 1: it or does the label own it?
Speaker 2: We own it? We actually, I guess I made that.
Speaker 2: We had a ten year term on it and that
Speaker 2: was released in twenty fourteen, so you can do the math.
Speaker 2: We own it.
Speaker 1: Okay, you make one record with single Lock, then you
Speaker 1: start making with people can't see the air quotes, start
Speaker 1: making albums with Records. What is records?
Speaker 2: So Records initially was a spin off or it was
Speaker 2: a part of Songs Publishing, which no longer exists, and
Speaker 2: it was we had had such a good relationship with
Speaker 2: them that when they proposed the label, we were like great,
Speaker 2: you know, like we had a good relationship. So that
Speaker 2: was at that time. The A and R was Ron
Speaker 2: Perry and Barry Weiss and and so we just had,
Speaker 2: you know, we thought that was that would be the
Speaker 2: best situation for for us at that point. And so
Speaker 2: then We did two records with them and.
Speaker 1: Time Out time Out who distributed the records.
Speaker 2: Record Sony Sony.
Speaker 1: Okay, but you also had a publishing deal with this company.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, we did.
Speaker 1: How did that come to be?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean they ended up giving us the most money. Uh,
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, like and and they had done
Speaker 2: some really I mean, to be to be honest, they
Speaker 2: had done some really good things, like they had. We'd
Speaker 2: gotten some placements, and it was just a good relationship,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like it's one of those
Speaker 2: things that's I think that's what our business in a
Speaker 2: lot of ways is about, is just having good relationships
Speaker 2: and people telling you what they're gonna do, and they
Speaker 2: do it and you go from there.
Speaker 1: Okay, in the deal with songs, do you still own
Speaker 1: the songs?
Speaker 2: I I think that is a split that one is.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a split on the ownership. Does it ultimately
Speaker 1: we've verted to you?
Speaker 2: I think it does. I think I think it does.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, you're in Alabama. Yeah, from the outside, it
Speaker 1: looks like you're a little wet behind the years. No,
Speaker 1: you're talking about Ron Perry and Barry Weiss. Those guys
Speaker 1: have decades worth of experience.
Speaker 2: That is true.
Speaker 1: So you want to make a deal with those people.
Speaker 1: You get a lawyer, you get a manager. What's the
Speaker 1: first step on your end?
Speaker 2: Oh, we have we had our we had we had
Speaker 2: we had a manager, We had a lawyer. Look at
Speaker 2: the date, you know, we had all of that stuff.
Speaker 1: Okay, was it a music business lawyer?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: Yes, okay. So you make two records with records? Then
Speaker 1: you shift to at O what's the thinking there.
Speaker 2: Well, at that time we with records, it seemed I
Speaker 2: don't you know, it seemed like what their goal for
Speaker 2: us was was a different thing. You know. We are
Speaker 2: kind of like, hey, it not that they not that
Speaker 2: they not that they don't care about the music. It
Speaker 2: was just that it was one of those things where
Speaker 2: they were like, hey, I think they were kind of
Speaker 2: thinking maybe pop hits or something of that nature, and
Speaker 2: we're kind of like, that's not really us, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean? Uh, you know what I mean, Like, well,
Speaker 2: that's not us, that's just not us. That's not no
Speaker 2: one's picking us to be on the cover of Vogue, Right.
Speaker 2: So we came to a mutual agreement where they're like, hey, great,
Speaker 2: we'll let you we'll let y'all, let y'all out, we
Speaker 2: have more time with them, They said, you know, but
Speaker 2: you know, Paul's solo thing can stay here, and then
Speaker 2: y'all are free to do whatever you want. And at
Speaker 2: the time we we were with Red Light Management and
Speaker 2: it seemed like a good fit with ATO, and we
Speaker 2: had two records that were I would say, left of
Speaker 2: center is the best way I could say it, and
Speaker 2: knew knew that, and we thought.
Speaker 1: Oh wait, wait, slow down, forget other people's perception. That's
Speaker 1: where left of center would describe it. What were you
Speaker 1: trying to do and how do you feel about what
Speaker 1: you were trying to do and what you accomplished on
Speaker 1: those records.
Speaker 2: I think when we first started, everyone was talking about
Speaker 2: the retro soul stuff, and we felt as a band
Speaker 2: it was it was proven it to ourselves. We felt
Speaker 2: as a band we were more than that. We felt
Speaker 2: like we could to ourselves prove that we can go
Speaker 2: a little bit more musically somewhere else and do do
Speaker 2: do all sorts of things which this band is capable
Speaker 2: of doing. And it wasn't really about I mean, you
Speaker 2: don't I hate saying this like you obviously want audiences
Speaker 2: to like your music, but at the same time, like
Speaker 2: if I got it into that, into this for that,
Speaker 2: like that's not that's not why I do it, But
Speaker 2: it was kind of proven to ourselves that, like we're
Speaker 2: also fans of Radiohead and Aphex Len and all sorts
Speaker 2: of all sorts of stuff, and so those influences kind
Speaker 2: of infiltrated the music, and I think we were trying
Speaker 2: to prove to ourselves like, no, hey, we're a little
Speaker 2: bit more than just like a novelty retro soul act.
Speaker 1: Okay, you made those records. You made two after the
Speaker 1: records were done, did you feel that you accomplish what
Speaker 1: you wanted? And two what was the audience reaction and
Speaker 1: how did that affect you?
Speaker 2: Yes, I felt like we accomplished what we wanted. That
Speaker 2: is the one satisfying thing that is I feel so
Speaker 2: fortunate that we got away with that personally, like I do,
Speaker 2: because like to be still having a career and touring
Speaker 2: and going through that is a There's not a lot
Speaker 2: of bands that can say that. So I feel like
Speaker 2: we did. We accomplished what we wanted, which hints why
Speaker 2: we kind of felt like this next record is is
Speaker 2: kind of a refresher, wenewed thing with the audience. Uh,
Speaker 2: it was challenging for the audience. I think there's some
Speaker 2: people that went with us and there's some people that didn't.
Speaker 2: You know, I think, you know, when you're known for
Speaker 2: one thing like we have a tiny desk or the
Speaker 2: Letterman performance or all of those things, that's what people expect,
Speaker 2: and then when they don't get that, it challenges them.
Speaker 2: And it was definitely challenging music. Its challenging for us.
Speaker 2: We were like, who this is out there? Uh, but
Speaker 2: we felt like it felt right. It felt right to us,
Speaker 2: and we felt like but the audience we released. So
Speaker 2: the last record were released was Angels and Science Fiction
Speaker 2: and it's very mellow. I don't think there's hardly any
Speaker 2: horns on it. Very mellow record. And we try to
Speaker 2: tour differently, like maybe do more seated listening room stuff,
Speaker 2: and it's pretty obviously our audience or the audience didn't
Speaker 2: have an appetite for it. And while I think that's
Speaker 2: a beautiful record and I'm very proud of it, it just
Speaker 2: it didn't seem like they were that into it, which
Speaker 2: is fine, I mean, you know what I mean, that's
Speaker 2: just part of being that's part of having a career.
Speaker 1: In this Okay, you have these two records where you
Speaker 1: expand your horizons. They are not as commercially successful on
Speaker 1: the road or on streams as the other ones. Do
Speaker 1: you feel hampered by that or do you feel fuck man,
Speaker 1: I want to have a career. Let's go back to
Speaker 1: the soul thing. I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't. I know this is crazy. I don't. I
Speaker 2: don't feel that way. I think this is I'm proud
Speaker 2: of those records, you know, I really am. I don't.
Speaker 2: If I was gonna do I was in accounting school.
Speaker 2: So if I want to do that and that's what
Speaker 2: I was about, then the if the only thing to
Speaker 2: me is the outcome of money with this, then well
Speaker 2: there's not a lot of difference. So that's not it
Speaker 2: is it. Don't get me wrong. It's important, you know,
Speaker 2: it's a secondary outcome to what we do. But but
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't look at it like that. I'm
Speaker 2: very proud of those. I don't look at those and go,
Speaker 2: oh God, like man, we we gotta get back to
Speaker 2: the thing, you know what I mean, Like, we gotta
Speaker 2: we gotta start getting those horns back in. It's just
Speaker 2: I think I've said this, and I've said this to
Speaker 2: our management, like this next record it it does it
Speaker 2: coincide with maybe what people maybe want from us a
Speaker 2: little bit more. Yeah, but that's not why we're there.
Speaker 2: We're there because like going through that process with the
Speaker 2: solo thing and writing and go and I really got
Speaker 2: obsessed with the idea of great songwriting, which is not
Speaker 2: saying that I wasn't, but it just felt like it
Speaker 2: got leveled up a bit, and so that I was
Speaker 2: chasing that dragon at that point, like writing just right,
Speaker 2: not from a modern sense, I don't, not from a
Speaker 2: modern pop sense, but from like a classic songwriting perspective,
Speaker 2: like someone like Jimmy Webb or something, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean, Like trying to go go that route. That's
Speaker 2: what fascinating. And it just kind of coincides with with
Speaker 2: where we're at.
Speaker 1: Okay, talking a little bit more business. You make two
Speaker 1: records with Ato, you're with Red Light, now you're with
Speaker 1: Q Prime and with thirty Tigers. What accounted for those changes?
Speaker 2: I oh, boy, uh, I think I think for us,
Speaker 2: it just felt it it felt like ownership of your
Speaker 2: stuff was really important in this day and age owning
Speaker 2: your things right, It felt like you know, with with
Speaker 2: With at first, you know, we weren't when we it
Speaker 2: was AMFM, and then they got absorbed into Q Prime.
Speaker 2: We when we made that change, it felt like they
Speaker 2: it just felt like they had a little bit more
Speaker 2: grasp of the modern modern times maybe and and And
Speaker 2: I think understood this band. I think that's what we've
Speaker 2: come to realize over time, is like thirty Tigers was
Speaker 2: great about understanding this band, not that others didn't, but
Speaker 2: it was just they had the best grasp. And then
Speaker 2: with management, it was kind of the same thing, like
Speaker 2: what is this band because we're not you know, we're
Speaker 2: not country like, we've done all sorts of genres, We've
Speaker 2: done all sorts of things, and it just, you know,
Speaker 2: it felt like the right fit. I mean, that's that's
Speaker 2: I guess the best I could say.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's slow it down a little bit. Does Ato
Speaker 1: own those two records?
Speaker 2: Yes, we will split those till in perpetuity.
Speaker 1: Okay, So Saint Paul and the Broken Bones own half
Speaker 1: of those or some percentage, yeah, half, Okay, So let's
Speaker 1: talk about management. You're in one canoe, I mean, before
Speaker 1: you jump into the other canoe. There must be a
Speaker 1: process of wait a second, you know we're going in
Speaker 1: the wrong direction, or we need better paddles or something.
Speaker 1: What was going through your brain?
Speaker 2: Uh, well, there was a lot of things going through
Speaker 2: my brain. Management's really tough because you you kind of
Speaker 2: speed date and then you have to get married, you know,
Speaker 2: and that's really hard, and you don't really know what
Speaker 2: you're getting until I would say at least a year
Speaker 2: in you know what I'm saying. Even then, it's still difficult.
Speaker 2: And we just felt like, you know, everybody promise you,
Speaker 2: promises you the world, right, and we are a mid
Speaker 2: sized touring act, so we do. We are going to
Speaker 2: bring whoever we go to some money, and for me
Speaker 2: it's a lot of money. For them it might not
Speaker 2: be that much money, but for me it's a lot
Speaker 2: of money. And so it you obviously have to give
Speaker 2: people a chance and go through. But when there starts
Speaker 2: to be certain signs of like, hey, this is not
Speaker 2: the right fit. I talked to somebody on our team
Speaker 2: and they were like, hey, bad management can or or
Speaker 2: not the right fit can can burn you. It can
Speaker 2: get you in real trouble. And so we we kind
Speaker 2: of had to make a swift, swift decision and uh
Speaker 2: and more good shape.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you have a new management company. Every management
Speaker 1: company is different. It's not like, you know, even working
Speaker 1: for a big corporation. So what is the difference on
Speaker 1: a more granular level working with am FM, which is
Speaker 1: now part of Q Prime.
Speaker 2: Well, I think I think they have a better grasp
Speaker 2: of the times of what we're in, like I they
Speaker 2: I think digital, the digital world. Like something for us
Speaker 2: that we are not good at is social media. I
Speaker 2: hate it with a pure and holy passion. We're not
Speaker 2: good with YouTube stuff. But that's the world we're in now.
Speaker 2: For example, like when we first started arted with them,
Speaker 2: we had I think, I don't even think we had
Speaker 2: a TikTok account right, so, which I was fine with,
Speaker 2: I don't care. But they were like, hey, let's let's
Speaker 2: do this. They had somebody I think, and this is
Speaker 2: a great example. In January we had about four thousand followers.
Speaker 2: Today we have ninety five thousand, and something went viral.
Speaker 2: They were able to. It's really just capitalizing on when
Speaker 2: something happens, when the luck comes, you know, being ready
Speaker 2: when the luck comes. And I think the digital side
Speaker 2: they had a really good understanding and we just kind
Speaker 2: of knew we felt like dinosaurs in a lot of ways,
Speaker 2: where we're like, you know, I still believe putting on
Speaker 2: great shows leads to a career, but there was just
Speaker 2: the digital side that we were really struggling with. And
Speaker 2: it's not it was it's also just you know, personality
Speaker 2: fits and teams. I think with really large management companies
Speaker 2: there is an internal dynamic that they're trying. I mean,
Speaker 2: they have a boss and so they're having to navigate
Speaker 2: their their businesses and stuff. It's like and he needs
Speaker 2: someone who's just like, what is there's no one more
Speaker 2: focused on my career and our career than me. They're
Speaker 2: just not. But you need someone who can go at
Speaker 2: least get and get a little bit in the weeds
Speaker 2: with you. And you know there's internal but like with
Speaker 2: going to a MFM, like Air Frank owned the company,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like he's the boss and
Speaker 2: there's no one else over him that they have to
Speaker 2: you know, navigate, and you know that's just how it works.
Speaker 1: Okay, So they say let's get deeper into social internet digital,
Speaker 1: many people up until the very recently said sounds good.
Speaker 1: They hire somebody or they hire a company. You and
Speaker 1: the members of your band, how involved are you personally?
Speaker 1: And what is posted on TikTok.
Speaker 2: I get a message that says do you approve? And
Speaker 2: I go yep, and that's it.
Speaker 1: Okay, I mean I haven't checked out all your TikTok clips.
Speaker 1: What are those clips? Like?
Speaker 2: Well, what we found is there was this is no joke.
Speaker 2: We had a clip we did a cruise for, like
Speaker 2: a New Orleans cruise, you know, and a small little
Speaker 2: clip of that went viral on TikTok and I was
Speaker 2: just like, okay, what you know what I mean so bizarre.
Speaker 2: But what we have found in this particular song, what
Speaker 2: we have found is that every time we post that
Speaker 2: particular part of that song, it it gets, you know,
Speaker 2: over one hundred to two hundred thousand views, and one
Speaker 2: of them got over I'm gonna think two million or something,
Speaker 2: you know, something nuts. And so what we do and
Speaker 2: what they have found is that it's it's performing, which
Speaker 2: I am so grateful for because I'll take a clip
Speaker 2: of me performing any day of the week, right Like,
Speaker 2: that's that's easy. It's not sitting on a pie or
Speaker 2: doing some sort of trendy you know thing or whatever,
Speaker 2: and so that's what they found is just like clips
Speaker 2: are performing and and I'm sure you know with the
Speaker 2: record release there'll be some more involvement, but but for us,
Speaker 2: it's just about getting live footage because that is apparently
Speaker 2: what people want from us.
Speaker 1: Okay, i'd only seen you saw the Letterman performance. We'll
Speaker 1: get back to that, hopefully saw the screen. I've seen you.
Speaker 1: I am now talking to you. You are completely different
Speaker 1: from my preconception. Okay, okay, and I only mean that
Speaker 1: in a good way. Okay, You're humble, you're intelligent, you
Speaker 1: have a sense of humor. So if you yourself, Paul Janeway,
Speaker 1: were posting about you and your band or what you
Speaker 1: did or anything, man, that would be magic on TikTok.
Speaker 1: What's wrong with doing something like that?
Speaker 2: You know what managements are gonna hear this, and now
Speaker 2: they're gonna be like, hey, hey said it, I'm my back.
Speaker 2: Oh god, uh, I know, I get it. I understand
Speaker 2: what you're saying. I just it is it's just here's
Speaker 2: the problem, Like, so you have to promote yourself and
Speaker 2: I'm just not It's it's it's a hard personality it's
Speaker 2: just a personality tick. But yes, you are, I have
Speaker 2: trust me. You ain't the first one to say it,
Speaker 2: which I appreciate, but uh, it's it's just I don't know, man,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait. There's two elements here.
Speaker 1: There's one playing at all and another promoting yourself. I
Speaker 1: don't want to go anywhere and say I'm great, listen
Speaker 1: to me do my stuff. I completely understand that, okay,
Speaker 1: but as an artist. An artist is not solely what's
Speaker 1: in the recording and what's on stage. There's much more
Speaker 1: to that. So to illuminate that does not mean you're
Speaker 1: selling out. You're hyping yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, you're right. I mean, look, the whole band
Speaker 2: has a really great dynamic, and there it's you know,
Speaker 2: we've been doing this for twelve years and we don't
Speaker 2: hate each other, so there has to be an element
Speaker 2: of I hear you, I hear you, and I ain't
Speaker 2: saying you're wrong. It's just it's just a heart. For
Speaker 2: some reason, I just have a hard time with it,
Speaker 2: and I think it probably I'll be honest with you,
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what it probably is a self esteem.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean because I think, who in
Speaker 2: the hell wants to hear from me and cares what
Speaker 2: I think or drink or eat or you know what
Speaker 2: I'm saying. But I think that's what it.
Speaker 1: Is, exactly what you're seeing. But I'll say two things. One,
Speaker 1: it's like I always say, you never know what's going
Speaker 1: to happen until you step out the front door. There
Speaker 1: are a lot of things I didn't want to do,
Speaker 1: and I went and led to all kinds of crazy shit.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of things I went out and nothing happened.
Speaker 1: But I'm just talking walking out the front door. Okay.
Speaker 1: The same thing which is interesting, which is obviously you
Speaker 1: have no problem getting up on stage and performing. In addition,
Speaker 1: you are a dynamic performer. Now they're like Howard Stern
Speaker 1: famously in his first marriage he would talk on the radio,
Speaker 1: come on, sit in his basement, not talk to anybody. Okay,
Speaker 1: So do you get all your eas out on stage
Speaker 1: and the rest of the time you're pretty isolated and
Speaker 1: low key or you just don't want to display the
Speaker 1: rest of your personality to the masses.
Speaker 2: I think that there is a privacy aspect to it.
Speaker 2: I think there's also because I think when you you
Speaker 2: live by the sword and you die by the sword.
Speaker 2: When it comes to social media, and I think when
Speaker 2: you allow that in, you are allowing you know, there
Speaker 2: is It's like I believe in criticism, right, music criticism
Speaker 2: and things like that, because we're sitting here trying. You know,
Speaker 2: you pay somebody to promote you toot your horn. Well,
Speaker 2: there has to be a counter to that, just for
Speaker 2: someone to wave through. And I think with social media's
Speaker 2: if you're gonna put your life out there, you have
Speaker 2: to be open to the criticism that's gonna happen when you.
Speaker 2: I mean we see that all the time with people
Speaker 2: who have podcasts and they talk every day. Well, you're
Speaker 2: gonna say something, you know what I mean, Like, no
Speaker 2: one's perfect, we're all imperfect.
Speaker 1: Wait wait wait wait, you don't have to say anything,
Speaker 1: and they're gonna hate on you exactly. You know, I
Speaker 1: walked out the front door. It was a beautiful day,
Speaker 1: you piece of shit. Why didn't you stay home? Et cetera.
Speaker 1: That goes with the territory. But it's not only social media.
Speaker 1: You play it all, you put your music out there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I know they're gonna be people who hating
Speaker 1: on you just for hating on you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I know that that part doesn't
Speaker 2: really bother me, you know what I mean, Like that part,
Speaker 2: I don't care about that. I mean people, I mean,
Speaker 2: god knows, we've made records that I know. I was like,
Speaker 2: I knew, like, ain't nobody going like this? But I
Speaker 2: don't care. But I think part of it, part of
Speaker 2: I think part of it is you live us or diabosourd.
Speaker 2: I also think with social media, I just it's just
Speaker 2: not my personality. I am my. I don't drink, I
Speaker 2: don't smoke, I don't have many you know, vices. So
Speaker 2: performing on stage and that moment of making music like
Speaker 2: that's that's my thing, Like that's where it's my outlet,
Speaker 2: and so it's where I get to be. I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's it's just where I get to be anything I
Speaker 2: want to be. And I love performing. I love being
Speaker 2: that vessel for people to feel something. You know, we
Speaker 2: just so desperately and need that. I think in generous
Speaker 2: people Like that's why I tell everybody to talk about
Speaker 2: AI and stuff like shows ain't going anywhere, They're not
Speaker 2: going anywhere because people are gonna still need that connection
Speaker 2: and to and to be a tool or a vessel
Speaker 2: for that for people to experience a comp whether it's
Speaker 2: crying or laughing or or you know whatever. Like that's man,
Speaker 2: that's that's that's a powerful drug. If I could figure
Speaker 2: out how to bottle that up. I never leave home.
Speaker 2: But after that, like I am a little bit more
Speaker 2: low key, you know what I mean? Like I like people,
Speaker 2: but I just you know, I don't go out and
Speaker 2: I got I got, you know, I got a four
Speaker 2: year old little girl, I got my wife. Like staying
Speaker 2: at home and being with them is pretty awesome to me.
Speaker 1: Okay, since you brought it up, you say you don't
Speaker 1: drink and you don't smoke. Did you used to drink?
Speaker 1: And did you used to smoke?
Speaker 2: Never? Have never. I grew up pretty religious.
Speaker 1: So your parents didn't drink or smoke either.
Speaker 2: I've never seen my mom or dad drink or smoke.
Speaker 1: So you're in the music world where a lot of
Speaker 1: people drink and smoke. Did people pressure you to drink
Speaker 1: and smoke? Are you comfortable when other people are drinking smokers?
Speaker 1: And a non issue?
Speaker 2: It's a non issue for me now. Early on, I
Speaker 2: never forget we did something in Nashville, and there was
Speaker 2: a old veteran guitar player who who told me, I said,
Speaker 2: you know, offer me something, you know, beer or something.
Speaker 2: I said, oh, no, thank you, I'm good. He said,
Speaker 2: you don't you know this, asked me and said you
Speaker 2: don't drink. And I said, no, I don't, I don't.
Speaker 2: He said, yeah, we'll see about that in a year.
Speaker 2: And I was just like, all right, man, I haven't
Speaker 2: have it so far, but uh it No. The guys
Speaker 2: loved it. The guys in the band loved it because
Speaker 2: when we were in the van, they knew they could
Speaker 2: do whatever they wanted to do and there was gonna
Speaker 2: be somebody that's gonna drive the van around, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean. They loved it. They were like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I love this guy doesn't drink, you know, a drink
Speaker 2: or do anything, and so uh yeah. So it it's
Speaker 2: a non issue to me, when, of course, when I
Speaker 2: was younger, it was a you know, it was a
Speaker 2: it was due to, you know, a religious thing. But
Speaker 2: now I don't, I don't. I mean, I don't care,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, as long as long as
Speaker 2: everything's consensual and you your own person, do do whatever
Speaker 2: you want. To do you know.
Speaker 1: Okay, you say you grew up in a religious environment.
Speaker 1: Did you have to break away from that to go
Speaker 1: on this path or you just happen to be on
Speaker 1: this path and you're still religious. Tell me about your
Speaker 1: thoughts over this run.
Speaker 2: Well that's a loaded question, uh, you know, trying to
Speaker 2: get it all in for me. I grew up, yeah,
Speaker 2: growing up religious, you know, grew up where you you know,
Speaker 2: my church went through many things, but one of them
Speaker 2: was speaking in tongues and slaying the demons and he
Speaker 2: or healing and all that, all that stuff. You know,
Speaker 2: it's a small town, right, And and so I did
Speaker 2: grow out of love with that. You know. I think
Speaker 2: as anything, your worldview broadens, you know, like how how
Speaker 2: how people view certain things? You'd like? No, I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't agree with that. Like the part I'm attracted
Speaker 2: to is is the love and acceptance and service. Those
Speaker 2: are the things that really stand out about it. And
Speaker 2: so I really fell out of love with it. And
Speaker 2: I started doing open mic nights in Birmingham, Alabama, and
Speaker 2: all I really want to because I know how to
Speaker 2: play guitar and sing, and and so I kind of
Speaker 2: fell out of love with it, and I'd never listened
Speaker 2: to till I was nineteen twenty. I'd never listened to
Speaker 2: a Beatles album in full. I'd never listened to you know,
Speaker 2: led Zeppelin, and you know what I mean, because I
Speaker 2: was just so sheltered from that, And so it was
Speaker 2: it was when you started listening to all these records,
Speaker 2: You're like, it was kind of like finding Jesus, because
Speaker 2: you're like, man, it's just a lot of music to
Speaker 2: listen to you And so I kind of got obsessed
Speaker 2: and and then that obviously led me down this path.
Speaker 2: And now I think at that point I had a
Speaker 2: lot of venom towards it. And now I think I'm
Speaker 2: in a place where I can find peace in it.
Speaker 2: And there's aspects of it that I feel like I
Speaker 2: should be applied to my life, like the service and
Speaker 2: love those things. But I have a hard time stepping
Speaker 2: in churches these days. It's it's it's it's a hard
Speaker 2: thing for me to do.
Speaker 1: Okay, you grew up. Was the external demonized or were
Speaker 1: you just unaware?
Speaker 2: Hum, that's a good question. Uh, it was definitely demonized
Speaker 2: to a degree. It wasn't just everything wasn't awful, But
Speaker 2: I remember It's funny, you know, having having a four
Speaker 2: year old and Halloween, and I remember early on going
Speaker 2: trick or treat, but then it turned into like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is the Devil's holiday and all that jazz, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, when you're just like okay whatever
Speaker 2: and uh. And so my experience with Halloween stuff like that,
Speaker 2: I think it. I think it changed over time. I
Speaker 2: think that's just how I think culturally. You know, small
Speaker 2: town Alabama, you know, church being the epicenter like it,
Speaker 2: just those things changed over time. And I think I
Speaker 2: think initially it was just like hey, just not exposed
Speaker 2: the stuff. But I don't think that happens as much
Speaker 2: now because we have the Internet, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: Like you are attached to a whole other world now.
Speaker 2: Though it can't get very echo chamber, you still have
Speaker 2: access to so many different things now than when you
Speaker 2: know then when I was going up.
Speaker 1: How about the radio. Were you listening to music radio
Speaker 1: growing up?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: No? The only thing my dad would ever listen to
Speaker 2: was sports talk. And then there was a Christian radio
Speaker 2: station that was about that was about.
Speaker 1: It and Christian rock? Was that something you.
Speaker 2: Were in now? That was part of it? It was
Speaker 2: got old gospel too, you know. The only thing and
Speaker 2: that probably makes a lot of sense. The only thing
Speaker 2: that my mom would listen to that was, I guess
Speaker 2: really considered secular was the stylistics. The old seventies grouped
Speaker 2: the stylistics and Sam Cook and and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: So in old school Marvin Gay, you know before before
Speaker 2: what's going on? Or let's get it on Marvin Gay.
Speaker 2: But uh, and so probably makes a lot of sense. Uh,
Speaker 2: my mom, my cousin one time gave me a Nirvana
Speaker 2: CD and my mom threw it away, and so I
Speaker 2: never Yeah, that was it.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you grew up exactly where.
Speaker 2: Chelsea, Alabama, and.
Speaker 1: For those of us from the north feeniest although I
Speaker 1: live in Los Angeles now, where exactly is that?
Speaker 2: So Chelsea is about forty five minutes about where I
Speaker 2: about live to an hour south of Birmingham when I
Speaker 2: grew up. It's really an interesting place because when I
Speaker 2: grew up there, it was about eight hundred people and
Speaker 2: it is the when I got into high school, is
Speaker 2: the fastest, one of the fastest growing counties in the
Speaker 2: United States, and I think now about twenty thousand people
Speaker 2: lived there. Really, Yes, it's really bizarre. It's what was
Speaker 2: it blew up really quick. So when I was getting
Speaker 2: out of high school and I left basically so it's
Speaker 2: it's now. It is now. I lived in unincorporated the
Speaker 2: unincorporated land, but it's now a full I would argue, suburb,
Speaker 2: whereas when I grew up it was a pretty rural area.
Speaker 1: And would your parents do for a living?
Speaker 2: My dad works in paving in construction, and my mom
Speaker 2: was a or a nurse for a gynecologist.
Speaker 1: And do you have any siblings?
Speaker 2: I do? I have two younger sisters. I have you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: I got two younger sisters.
Speaker 1: And you broke away from this background upbringing.
Speaker 2: What happened with them, Well, you know what happens, I think,
Speaker 2: unfortunately with a lot of families in this situation. My
Speaker 2: parents got divorced when I was sixteen, and I think
Speaker 2: when that happens, your worldview changes a lot. And I
Speaker 2: think that was probably a pretty pivotal point for me
Speaker 2: as well, because you know, your parents aren't your heroes,
Speaker 2: and you know what I mean, Like, you go through
Speaker 2: all this this whole process, especially in a small town,
Speaker 2: small community, everybody knows about it, and it gets kind
Speaker 2: of ugly and all that stuff. And I think once
Speaker 2: that happened, it really changed all of us in a
Speaker 2: lot of ways. And so everybody's I would argue a
Speaker 2: little more worldly now, you know what I mean, just
Speaker 2: the best way. But my sister, you know, my sister,
Speaker 2: one of my sisters is an engineer and the other
Speaker 2: one is a social worker. So that's you know.
Speaker 1: So did you see the divorce coming and you said
Speaker 1: it changed you in a lot of ways? What ways
Speaker 1: were those?
Speaker 2: Definitely saw it. You know, I don't want to get
Speaker 2: too deep, but it was it was a there was,
Speaker 2: you know, an abusive atmosphere, was the nicest way I
Speaker 2: can say it. And I just grew up that way
Speaker 2: and so definitely saw it. Probably should have come a
Speaker 2: lot sooner than it did. And then, uh, I think
Speaker 2: for me, it it changed. It just changed. It changed.
Speaker 2: It changes how you feel about the world. And you know,
Speaker 2: you're you have these people that you that you're entrusted
Speaker 2: to and now they're you know, now they're getting divorced.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're in Chelsea. How does this big transition happen?
Speaker 1: You graduate from high school? You would I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know, how does it happen.
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't graduate from high school till a year later. I. Uh,
Speaker 2: my mom was pretty adamant about me going to school,
Speaker 2: and I was telling her, no, I don't want to
Speaker 2: go to school. And so we had, you know, you
Speaker 2: have one of those big blowoffs. And my dad at
Speaker 2: the time was living in an apartment, uh, two bedroom apartment,
Speaker 2: and uh, he was like, well, you can come live here,
Speaker 2: but he was driving two hours every morning, uh to
Speaker 2: or you know, to Aniston. So he's getting up at
Speaker 2: four thirty in the morning driving to work. So no
Speaker 2: one was taking making sure I was going to school.
Speaker 2: So I didn't go to school, and uh and uh.
Speaker 2: And then eventually I realized, like, all right, I can't.
Speaker 2: I gotta get my high school diploma. So I went
Speaker 2: to summer school, then went to it. I mean my
Speaker 2: whole I think most my senior year, I didn't even
Speaker 2: I didn't even I don't think I cracked the cracked
Speaker 2: the doors of that school. And so I went to So, yeah,
Speaker 2: I went to I went. It took me another year
Speaker 2: and a half to get my high school diploma. So
Speaker 2: I was supposed to graduate and I didn't. So it
Speaker 2: took me a while, which looking back at it now
Speaker 2: is fairly embarrassing. I should have I should have stuck
Speaker 2: with it, but you know, I was just a situation
Speaker 2: where I didn't have any you know what, my dad's fault.
Speaker 2: He's working, right, I should I should have gotten up
Speaker 2: and gone, but I just didn't go. And and then
Speaker 2: so then you know, I'm obviously lost, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't. I have no idea what I
Speaker 2: want to do with my life. I have no clue.
Speaker 2: And I was living with my dad and my sister
Speaker 2: moves in, so one of us had to sleep on
Speaker 2: the couch, and it was it was I looked back
Speaker 2: at it. I laughed now, but it was not laughing then,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. It was not laughing, but
Speaker 2: I look at it and I was it's And so
Speaker 2: then you know, I was, I was having to figure
Speaker 2: out my life, you know. And music, I mean, there's
Speaker 2: not there's not a ton of stuff that's come out
Speaker 2: of burning him. And music didn't seem like I loved creating,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't seem like an option. And and and
Speaker 2: I was I never forget. I was working at a
Speaker 2: tanning bed. I know, with this this skin right here,
Speaker 2: it's a level. Look, you know what I mean. But
Speaker 2: I was working at a tanning bed my Uh it
Speaker 2: was because I didn't have a car, so I could
Speaker 2: walk there, and uh they let me go. So finally
Speaker 2: I swallowed my pride. That did the thing. Because my
Speaker 2: Papal worked in paving in construction. He was a mechanic.
Speaker 2: My dad worked in paving in construction. I was like,
Speaker 2: that was the family lineage, right, working working on the
Speaker 2: roads and things. And I thought I had to swallow
Speaker 2: my pride and say, Dad, hey, can you help me
Speaker 2: out and get me a job. And he put in
Speaker 2: a good word and I started working for a mechanic
Speaker 2: shop as a gopher and I'd cut the grass and
Speaker 2: all that stuff. And so he and so in that time,
Speaker 2: I'm still playing. I still loved and you know what
Speaker 2: I mean, But it just I do an open mic
Speaker 2: here there. I end up meeting this guy named Jesse Phillips,
Speaker 2: who is the bass player in this band. Uh to
Speaker 2: this day, me and him grew into a really great
Speaker 2: relationship and he still he was the best man at
Speaker 2: my wedding. Like we still I loved. I love him
Speaker 2: to death. And he had I had a little record
Speaker 2: collection and I had talking heads remain in light and
Speaker 2: he saw that and he's like, I think we're gonna
Speaker 2: be friends, and and uh, and so I got let
Speaker 2: go at the mechanic shop in two thousand and eight
Speaker 2: when all the economy went down. And to be fair,
Speaker 2: I wasn't great at that job, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: Like I mean I had to be there at six
Speaker 2: point thirty in the morning. I am not a morning person.
Speaker 2: But it was just part of life, right, And when
Speaker 2: the economy went down, and then so I was on
Speaker 2: unemployment for like three or two or two and a
Speaker 2: half three years and didn't have much going I really
Speaker 2: didn't and uh, but still playing music with Jesse. And
Speaker 2: then met a girl and she is now my wife.
Speaker 2: Met her and I knew I had to do something.
Speaker 2: I was like, I gotta I gotta make something on myself.
Speaker 2: So I went to community college. Still play music, but
Speaker 2: nothing really happening. Went to community college. Then decided, okay,
Speaker 2: you know, I was had a job at a sporting
Speaker 2: good store, going to community college. She stuck with me,
Speaker 2: and then finally I was going into a county school
Speaker 2: at UAB here in Birmingham, and my and Jesse's like, hey, man,
Speaker 2: I'm about to move on to can we just kind
Speaker 2: of write this a little EP or something of our
Speaker 2: musical friendship and we'll always be friends. That ended up
Speaker 2: being Saint Paul and the Broken Bones.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. Yes, you were living in this
Speaker 1: religious environment. How much was music a part of that?
Speaker 1: And how much did you sing, play or whatever? My mom?
Speaker 2: I mean, I sang some I was four years old.
Speaker 2: I sang solos in church. My mom plays piano, she
Speaker 2: sings too. It's really really interesting that, you know. My
Speaker 2: mom's relationship with music was something I knew when something
Speaker 2: bad had happened to her because I'd hear the piano
Speaker 2: being played. It's a So that was always kind of
Speaker 2: my relationship with music, right, and so we played all
Speaker 2: the time. Now I sang all the time, but I
Speaker 2: never thought. I never thought I was a lead singer.
Speaker 2: I had a pastor that was very adamant about me
Speaker 2: singing background. I think you probably saw how much I
Speaker 2: loved it. And he's like, no, we gotta treat treat you,
Speaker 2: gotta treat this fellow humility. And uh so he would
Speaker 2: kind of he would have me sing background, and I never,
Speaker 2: So I never never thought I was much of a singer,
Speaker 2: you know, so I never really got that until I
Speaker 2: went to open mics. But yeah, it was around. I
Speaker 2: was around it a lot.
Speaker 1: Okay, At what point, I mean when you talk about
Speaker 1: owning remaining late, what starts this transition into secular music?
Speaker 1: How do you discover what goes on?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean really, for me, what it was is
Speaker 2: once you kind of get out of that world, right,
Speaker 2: you get out of that small kind of religious world,
Speaker 2: it was just kind of an explosion of of like
Speaker 2: music discovery, right, And I'm just like, and it's gonna
Speaker 2: be bad. And I know I shouldn't say this, but
Speaker 2: it was the time of of pirrating music, so you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, So I could. I had I
Speaker 2: had an external hard drive with I mean millions of stuff,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, and I just downloaded and
Speaker 2: listen to it and listen to it and listen to it. Really,
Speaker 2: what's really funny is one of the people that I
Speaker 2: really loved after this kind of you know, you go
Speaker 2: read a magazine or you know what I mean, and
Speaker 2: you would just kind of go all over the place.
Speaker 2: One of the people I really loved that was that
Speaker 2: was really and I'm glad I do because now it's
Speaker 2: it's funny. It's Tom Waits. And the reason I tom
Speaker 2: Waits is because when I would listen to his records,
Speaker 2: it sounded like the old lady in our church who
Speaker 2: played played, uh, played piano, and I got this, like
Speaker 2: his style kind of match some of it. And so
Speaker 2: I just I devoured everything, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: because you could at that time like I just devoured everything,
Speaker 2: and so I would just I think I still have
Speaker 2: that hard drive somewhere. This is all of everything. So
Speaker 2: I loved. What was interesting for me is I love
Speaker 2: the stuff that made my ears perk up a little bit,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. That wasn't so like standard things,
Speaker 2: and so obviously something like talking heads that made you go,
Speaker 2: oh what what's that? And so I kind of fell
Speaker 2: in love with that. And so that's that was the journey,
Speaker 2: and it was it became, no kidding, an obsession. And
Speaker 2: I'm talking when I woke up, I listened to music,
Speaker 2: you know, go in the bed, I mean from all
Speaker 2: when I could cut the grass and listen with my headphones. Man,
Speaker 2: that was it my favorite thing to do. We would
Speaker 2: escort the big equipment in Alabama, you know, big old
Speaker 2: pavers and stuff, and I'd get to escort them with
Speaker 2: my little truck, and man, I'd listen to records all day,
Speaker 2: all day. And that's really kind of where it began.
Speaker 1: Okay, just to get the timing right. Did this start
Speaker 1: when your appearents got divorced or you moved in with
Speaker 1: your father? When did this transition happen?
Speaker 2: I think when it moved in when I moved in
Speaker 2: with dad, because I was he wasn't in the community anymore,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like he was outside of it,
Speaker 2: and you just you feel lost, You feel lost at sea.
Speaker 2: And music has always kind of been that that that
Speaker 2: compass to kind of lead you in the right direction
Speaker 2: or or I mean, you know, we all that. I
Speaker 2: think that's why we all we all have flashbowl memories
Speaker 2: of music and albums and songs and and so that's
Speaker 2: where music just kind of it always felt somewhat spiritual
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 1: Okay, when you were going to these open mics, where
Speaker 1: were the open mics? And what were you doing?
Speaker 2: They were open mind? There was I think there was
Speaker 2: a place called the Oasis Bar that was I think
Speaker 2: I was the first one I did down in Burma.
Speaker 2: It was just in Birmingham. I mean I never played
Speaker 2: anywhere else.
Speaker 1: Okay, just so I understand, Chelsea is like forty five
Speaker 1: minutes from Birmingham. When you move in with your father,
Speaker 1: how far from Birmingham are you?
Speaker 2: I think it's like fifteen fifteen minutes. Oh close, close, Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was close. It was close to downtown.
Speaker 1: And so when you would go to these open mics,
Speaker 1: you had a car, how'd you get there?
Speaker 2: I did have a car. I did have a car
Speaker 2: for a little bit. You know, you'd bum ridse with
Speaker 2: friends or whatever you needed to do.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you find out there's an open mic, you
Speaker 1: go there, no one knows who are you sign up?
Speaker 1: It's your little time on stage. What do you actually do? Uh?
Speaker 2: Funny enough, you would think, oh, he'd probably do a
Speaker 2: cover or two. I would play songs I wrote, and
Speaker 2: that was it. That's us all. That's the only reason
Speaker 2: I learned to play guitar was the right songs I wrote.
Speaker 1: Just to be clear, when did you pick up the
Speaker 1: guitar and start writing songs?
Speaker 2: It's funny enough. I'm in church when I was about
Speaker 2: I'd say about thirteen started playing guitar.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're living with your father, you own a guitar,
Speaker 1: you're writing songs. What is the thought process of going
Speaker 1: to the open mic because you are going to expose yourself?
Speaker 1: What was going through your head?
Speaker 2: I think it was just an outlet, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean? Like I remember, because you know, I would
Speaker 2: I preached in church a little bit, and I love
Speaker 2: that kind of performance thing. And there was something about
Speaker 2: about me internally that just really loved that performing in
Speaker 2: front of people. And and I mean I was nervous
Speaker 2: as hell, don't get me wrong, but I just had
Speaker 2: that something within me is like, hey, I really enjoy this.
Speaker 2: It brings me a lot of joy. Go do it.
Speaker 2: And I would go do it, and then then I'd
Speaker 2: go do it.
Speaker 1: Okay. How many times did you go to the open mic?
Speaker 2: Oh? I don't know. It was a lot.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you went. How long would they play? How
Speaker 1: many people were there? And what kind of reaction did
Speaker 1: your original material get?
Speaker 2: Uh? It would vary. Sometimes there'd be three people there
Speaker 2: and sometimes there'd be twenty people there. You know, it
Speaker 2: was whatever. I think that's when I realized, Okay, maybe
Speaker 2: I'm not a bad singer because I wasn't a great
Speaker 2: guitar player as good enough, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: But it got a reaction and people would woo or whatever,
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, okay, maybe maybe I got something,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. And so you kinda try
Speaker 2: and I don't know deal with Oh.
Speaker 1: Okay, did you find you got a reaction pretty quickly
Speaker 1: or deeper in your mic appearances?
Speaker 2: It was pretty immediate. It was pretty immediate.
Speaker 1: Okay, that feels good, but you're not the only one
Speaker 1: on stage. When you were over, do you say, well,
Speaker 1: that felt good and I'm pretty good or that felt good,
Speaker 1: but Jesus, the ten other people are better than me.
Speaker 2: This is funny. I remember being like I'd see somebody
Speaker 2: and I mean, I think I sing better than this person,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. You would do that kind
Speaker 2: of thing because I do have an internal competition type thing,
Speaker 2: which as you, I think you kind of get older,
Speaker 2: you kind of just have to realize you focus on yourself.
Speaker 2: But there was still at that time like, oh man,
Speaker 2: like there'd be people doing well, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: and I think I think I could do better, you
Speaker 2: know what I'm saying. You'd have that mechanism area.
Speaker 1: Just to go back, when you're going to school, are
Speaker 1: you playing sports, are you doing competition or you're more
Speaker 1: stitting at home.
Speaker 2: Well, when I was in high school, I did. I
Speaker 2: definitely played played sports.
Speaker 1: But after that, no, okay, we're in this game. And
Speaker 1: how do you meet the woman who becomes your wife?
Speaker 2: I went on a date with a roommate.
Speaker 1: How did you end up going out a date with
Speaker 1: a roommate?
Speaker 2: It's a laws. I look, man, I was in a
Speaker 2: long relationship. I I you know, I'm I'm I'm a
Speaker 2: serial monogamous. I guess is the best way to say.
Speaker 2: Uh I? Uh I. I got out of long term
Speaker 2: relationship and it felt really lost because the music thing
Speaker 2: hadn't happened, and I wasn't you know, I was in
Speaker 2: her weird place. And so through mutual friends meet her roommate.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I was exactly ready to go out
Speaker 2: on the date. Went on one date, and uh, Caroline
Speaker 2: was there at her at the at the the her
Speaker 2: friends have they lived together, and I was like, man,
Speaker 2: I like that girl. But I've already you know what
Speaker 2: I mean, I've already that this has already happened, you know, like,
Speaker 2: it's we've already went on a date. I don't know,
Speaker 2: And then I knew pretty pretty much. I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is for me. I don't
Speaker 2: I still probably wasn't in the best place to be
Speaker 2: dating anybody, and I don't you don't even really know
Speaker 2: for roommate was that interested. But Caroline I liked and
Speaker 2: I thought she's really smart and beautiful, and she she
Speaker 2: had a scholarship to go to Georgetown to get her
Speaker 2: masters and I just thought, this girl is so above me,
Speaker 2: class and just classy and just really kind. All these
Speaker 2: things right, all the all the things, and uh so
Speaker 2: about I'd say about I'd say about six months later,
Speaker 2: we start kind of I don't know, texting or something,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, where you start going okay,
Speaker 2: And then we were like, uh oh, I think I
Speaker 2: think we're I think we're into each other, all right,
Speaker 2: So how do we navigate this? And she was leaving
Speaker 2: no jokes, she was leaving two months for DC. She
Speaker 2: was in Birmingham and she was leaving for two months
Speaker 2: or she was leaving it two months to go to
Speaker 2: school to get her master's at Georgetown. And so we
Speaker 2: were hanging out a lot, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: And we were kind of can I think we like
Speaker 2: each other and so on and so forth. Then when
Speaker 2: she moved to d C. We both said hey, cause
Speaker 2: I was like, I you do not. I am unemployed
Speaker 2: living with my dad. You do not need to stay
Speaker 2: here for me, you know what I mean, like go
Speaker 2: to go oh, go to Georgetown, right and uh and
Speaker 2: then we said, hey, we'll see what happens, you know,
Speaker 2: Like time she moved to Georgetown in about two weeks
Speaker 2: in we were like, uh, we gotta do the long
Speaker 2: distance thing. And that's what we did and uh and
Speaker 2: so it all worked out.
Speaker 1: Okay, where did she go up to undergrad.
Speaker 2: To Sandford University which is a private university in Birmingham.
Speaker 1: And did she stick it out at Georgetown? You did?
Speaker 2: You got a full ride and got her masters and
Speaker 2: want to her masters in literature. Okay, just to go
Speaker 2: back a step, you say you're a serial monogamous. So
Speaker 2: you're someone who had a lot of girlfriends before Caroline. No,
Speaker 2: I I've just I was pretty I was kind of
Speaker 2: a one woman kind of guy. Though. If I was in,
Speaker 2: I was in, you know what I mean, Like probably
Speaker 2: you know what I mean I was in like I
Speaker 2: I was like very loyal and and that kind of
Speaker 2: thing may be the wrong terminology for it, but that's
Speaker 2: that's how I was.
Speaker 1: But you weren't. I mean, there are a lot of
Speaker 1: people I was sitting home playing the guitar, too scared
Speaker 1: to talk to girls. It wasn't until I was a star.
Speaker 1: You were with the ladies all long.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I had girlfriends previous of being in St.
Speaker 2: Paul and Brother Bones.
Speaker 1: Yes, so you Caroline is your age older younger. She's
Speaker 1: three years younger, three years younger. Okay, so when you
Speaker 1: meet her, she's like twenty two and you're like twenty five.
Speaker 2: I would say I was. It was more like I
Speaker 2: was twenties. Well, yeah, that's that's close. That's actually yeah,
Speaker 2: you're right, GotY Jesus, we've known each other that long.
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, Okay, she finishes grad school. What does she
Speaker 1: then do?
Speaker 2: So she had a lot, you know, a lot more
Speaker 2: options than I did. She knew she wanted to come
Speaker 2: back to Birmingham because we had, you know, we were dating.
Speaker 2: We were pretty I mean obviously at that point, very
Speaker 2: seriously dating. So she comes back to Birmingham and she
Speaker 2: goes back to she works for Sanford University. She works there.
Speaker 2: I can't remember her exact role. I know that she
Speaker 2: ended up being the associate director of the Honors program
Speaker 2: of the Honors college there, and so that's what she
Speaker 2: ended up doing for a while.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're living with your dad. What does she say?
Speaker 1: Did she say it? I like you, but you gotta
Speaker 1: get it together. You got to go to school. How
Speaker 1: did you end up going to community college? What was
Speaker 1: going on there?
Speaker 2: That's exactly what happened. So she I always tell this
Speaker 2: story her. She's from Bristol, Tennessee, and I go up
Speaker 2: there to meet her parents, and her parents are some
Speaker 2: of the sweetest, best people in the world. And I
Speaker 2: had only two outfits for three days and her parents
Speaker 2: cried when they met me because they were like, this
Speaker 2: is the guy you bring home. This is it. It's unemployed.
Speaker 2: You know, I ain't got no ambit, doesn't seem like
Speaker 2: anything's going for him or anything. And she saw I mean,
Speaker 2: I I it is true that it is. She's the
Speaker 2: reason why this happened because she had a little faith
Speaker 2: in me. But yeah, that basically what happened was she
Speaker 2: was like, hey, I really like you, but you got
Speaker 2: to get a job, like you gotta have something going on.
Speaker 2: And she's like and I was like, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2: I mean, she was right, And I didn't realize it
Speaker 2: at the time. I was probably depressed, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. But you don't realize it necessarily when you're
Speaker 2: in it, and then you get out of you Oh,
Speaker 2: that's definitely not in a good place, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. So, yeah, I worked at a job. I
Speaker 2: worked at it. I got a job at a phibit
Speaker 2: sporting good store, a sporting good store, making less working
Speaker 2: at sporting good short store than I wasn't unemployment and uh,
Speaker 2: which you know. But and then went to community and decided,
Speaker 2: all right, I really got to do something. If I'm
Speaker 2: going to keep this girl, I gotta I got So
Speaker 2: I went to community college in Birmingham.
Speaker 1: So how long did you go to school that time?
Speaker 2: I went for two years, I guess, however you graduate
Speaker 2: community college or however, you know what I mean, like,
Speaker 2: however that works. And then and then went to UAB
Speaker 2: which is a you know, a four year university for accounting,
Speaker 2: and lasted I think two semesters there and then and
Speaker 2: then the then my life got blown up with the band.
Speaker 1: Okay, you have a four year old, how do you
Speaker 1: ultimately decide to have a kid, because it's not soon
Speaker 1: after you meet her.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean when we first met, I don't think
Speaker 2: kids were a thing that we were thinking about. I
Speaker 2: think we were both fairly ambitious maybe, and we were
Speaker 2: just like you know, I always tell the story though
Speaker 2: we uh, we played a show, We played some shows
Speaker 2: in Japan and my wife, my wife came and we
Speaker 2: did like a full week of Japan and we'd already
Speaker 2: traveled and gotten to do all this amazing stuff, you know,
Speaker 2: the band, the band and her job at that point,
Speaker 2: and we both were like, Okay, we've done about it.
Speaker 2: I've lived ten lifetimes at this point, I think, and
Speaker 2: we were like, if we're gonna have a kid, this
Speaker 2: is the time to do it. And we did and it,
Speaker 2: I mean, as everyone said, the most cliche thing was
Speaker 2: the best decision we ever made. And all of the right,
Speaker 2: all those things right, and it is, it's it's the
Speaker 2: good thing is And what I love is that my
Speaker 2: daughter is growing up in a house of love, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? And that's I don't I don't
Speaker 2: everybody not everybody gets that, and I think that's a
Speaker 2: really beautiful thing. But yeah, that's it was. Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: when we Japan will always hold a special place in
Speaker 2: my heart because that's kind of when we decided, all right,
Speaker 2: let's do this.
Speaker 1: Okay, Saint Paul and the broken bones starts to happen.
Speaker 1: Does your wife continue to work? Is she's still working now?
Speaker 2: Yes? She she? I mean she had to. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, this our business, like I make a decent
Speaker 2: living and I live in Alabama, but it ain't you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, we make it work and uh
Speaker 2: so we have we have to have two incomes though.
Speaker 2: I mean, unfortunately, my wife moved to the nonprofit sector
Speaker 2: here recently, you know, not you know a few years ago,
Speaker 2: and unfortunately, as I'm sure a lot of people know,
Speaker 2: that sector has been decimated here, uh since January. And
Speaker 2: so she is, she's she's she's sad to start her
Speaker 2: own thing and everything, but she yeah, she's been. I'm
Speaker 2: proud of her. But it's been a it's been a
Speaker 2: long journey.
Speaker 1: Okay. Alabama is a unique place. I certainly know people
Speaker 1: live in Birmingham, very sophisticated. Okay, but when it comes
Speaker 1: to states and esteem and the rest of the population
Speaker 1: you got there, Mississippi, Alabama, maybe Louisiana. So tell us
Speaker 1: about Alabama and what people who don't live there don't
Speaker 1: get about it.
Speaker 2: What they don't get about it. People can be really
Speaker 2: kind here. I know, Southern hospitality is a real thing.
Speaker 2: I think that you. I think people would be surprised
Speaker 2: by you know, there's if when your neighbors with somebody
Speaker 2: like you would take the shirt off your back and
Speaker 2: and help, you know what I mean, and help people.
Speaker 2: I think that's part of it. Uh though I don't
Speaker 2: it's funny. I think a lot of people go they
Speaker 2: go to the intelligent stuff. But I like to point
Speaker 2: out that we build, you know, build rockets in Huntsville,
Speaker 2: so we have literal rockets, scientists that live in the state.
Speaker 2: So it isn't all you know what I mean. It
Speaker 2: ain't all overalls and hayseeds and racism, you know. So
Speaker 2: it's a it's a I I have my issues with it,
Speaker 2: of course I live here, but I also it's a
Speaker 2: beautiful state. I have, it's affordable and you can have
Speaker 2: I mean, to me, what's really interesting is in Birmingham
Speaker 2: we have one of the best hospitals in the country.
Speaker 2: We have great education in Birmingham or you know, around Birmingham.
Speaker 2: So I think people it's honestly like it's a great
Speaker 2: it is. It is a great place to live. And
Speaker 2: I don't think I think people kind of him in Hall,
Speaker 2: especially up in the northeast. But it's like, no, there
Speaker 2: are good things that happen here, and there's also bad
Speaker 2: things that happen here.
Speaker 1: Okay, you have this buddy. The buddy says he's gonna
Speaker 1: move on, let's record our stuff as an EP. What
Speaker 1: happens then.
Speaker 2: Well, uh he he is the social butterfly, so he
Speaker 2: knows everybody else is gonna play on the record, and
Speaker 2: so he browan who's the guitar player in this band? Alan,
Speaker 2: who's the trumpet player in this band? And he knew
Speaker 2: the trombone player and the drummer. And we all, you know,
Speaker 2: we had to see it through, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Once we started making it, we went, uh oh, we
Speaker 2: got to see this through.
Speaker 1: Okay, let me let me just stop for a second.
Speaker 1: You're with the woman. She becomes your wife at some point,
Speaker 1: I don't know when, but you're with hers solidly you're
Speaker 1: going to school. What is going on in your musical life?
Speaker 1: Are you still playing open? What is going on before
Speaker 1: you decide to make this EP?
Speaker 2: Me and Jesse are playing together, and we'd play at
Speaker 2: his house and we'd do little coffee shop events and
Speaker 2: stuff like that, Like there's really not It wasn't anything
Speaker 2: of major scale for sure, and so we we we
Speaker 2: are just doing that and we'd I played his house
Speaker 2: and so on and so forth.
Speaker 1: Okay, is the dream there at all? Is it still there?
Speaker 1: Is the hunger still there? What's going through your mind?
Speaker 2: The dream was to sell out a Bottle Tree Cafe
Speaker 2: in Birmingham, Alabama, which was a two hundred and ten
Speaker 2: cap room. That was the dream. I mean, to this day,
Speaker 2: the only thing I have framed from our career is
Speaker 2: the sold out sign when we sold that place out
Speaker 2: one time. That was the dream. So it's I don't
Speaker 2: want to say your goals changed though, right Like you
Speaker 2: accomplish that and you go, all right, what's next? And
Speaker 2: then it was like, oh, really I work security at Bonnaroo.
Speaker 2: I want to play Bonnaroe. W Well, we played Bonnarue
Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen, and then you know, and now the
Speaker 2: goal is Red Rocks and we and we want to
Speaker 2: headline Red Rocks. That's the goal now with this band.
Speaker 2: And so we've just changed the goals. So the U
Speaker 2: the drive's still there. The drive still there is just
Speaker 2: we just have had to change the goals a few times,
Speaker 2: which is an amazing feeling.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back, you're gonna record this EP. Jesse's
Speaker 1: a social butterfly, starts pulling the people together. So what happens?
Speaker 2: So we do a so we're you know, we we
Speaker 2: start selling selling real tickets in Birmingham, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean? Like we did what?
Speaker 1: Whoa wha wha wait wait you're playing with Jesse in
Speaker 1: his house. Yeah, how do you end up selling tickets?
Speaker 1: Is the EP done and people wear the EP? Or
Speaker 1: do you start playing out?
Speaker 2: How do you start playing out? We started the EP,
Speaker 2: you know, it's not really done, but we start playing out.
Speaker 1: And is it a big band? Like it turns out
Speaker 1: to be?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it was at that point. I think it
Speaker 2: was six At that point. I don't think we had
Speaker 2: it and it's all original material, all original material for
Speaker 2: the most part. Now we did because we played the
Speaker 2: same place like once every two weeks, which is not
Speaker 2: just supposed to do right. We did start doing things
Speaker 2: where we would do like Otis Blo in its entirety
Speaker 2: or a Wilson Pickett record in its entirety, just to
Speaker 2: like change it up, you know what I mean, like
Speaker 2: chant chant, to do something different. So we did that.
Speaker 2: We did that as well. So but for a large
Speaker 2: part of it was I mean, we we were touring on.
Speaker 2: We were doing original materials then throwing a cover in there,
Speaker 2: you know, ever so often.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what's the timeline you start to make this record?
Speaker 1: You have a band, you start playing out, how long
Speaker 1: does it take till the record is finished? And then
Speaker 1: what happens after that?
Speaker 2: So the EP gets done, it's a pretty easy you
Speaker 2: know that there's nobody's releasing it. We just have it.
Speaker 2: We own it. There's nothing nothing to it, right, We're
Speaker 2: we're not chasing management or anything like that. We just
Speaker 2: have it. Uh. But what's interesting is we had a
Speaker 2: friend of Jesse's or a friend of ours, had this
Speaker 2: I think it was called Rhythm and Roots televised thing
Speaker 2: and Nash and that that's it was. And she had
Speaker 2: reached out to Jesse and was like, hey, would y'all
Speaker 2: be interested in doing this, and and we were like, sure,
Speaker 2: why not? And so, I mean, there's the clips out
Speaker 2: there of a song that we had to make up
Speaker 2: the day before because we didn't have enough material to play.
Speaker 2: But some uh are someone saw the video of us,
Speaker 2: said when that video went out, someone saw that video
Speaker 2: and they reached out and said and they knew Brown
Speaker 2: and they reached out and said, hey, is this serious?
Speaker 2: And and and it was uh, it was Tracy who
Speaker 2: was a manager, and she was you know, and she
Speaker 2: she uh then that then once she got involved, everything changed.
Speaker 2: Go tell me, well, I mean she she you know,
Speaker 2: she knew she had she she manages Jason Isbell and
Speaker 2: you know, Jason, Jason is what Jason is. At that time,
Speaker 2: he wasn't you know what I mean, he was just
Speaker 2: kind of starting for him. But she knew, she she
Speaker 2: you know, she knew like, hey, we got to get
Speaker 2: a booking agent. We have to you know, see what
Speaker 2: the label situation. But we had met funny enough, we
Speaker 2: had met single Lock a month or two before we
Speaker 2: met her. So we had single Locks like, hey, we'll
Speaker 2: get you a van. And we were like, okay, sounds great.
Speaker 2: That sounds like a great record deal. And so we
Speaker 2: we we did that. We we uh so we had
Speaker 2: to deal with them and made a record, then made
Speaker 2: a record with them and with Ben Tanner and so
Speaker 2: we you know, it was you had to navigate all
Speaker 2: that and it was just get on the road.
Speaker 1: Okay, Just could be clear. How did Single Lock find
Speaker 1: out about you? And how many gigs had you done
Speaker 1: before they did?
Speaker 2: How many ge We had only done maybe fifteen to
Speaker 2: twenty gigs before Single Lock found out about us, which
Speaker 2: wasn't a lot that not as a band. You know,
Speaker 2: everybody else in the band had played, you know, ton
Speaker 2: I had, but as a band, we hadn't played a lot.
Speaker 2: So but single locke Ben Tanner and you know browing
Speaker 2: the guitar players from Muscle shoals from that area, so
Speaker 2: from Florence and so he he knew Ben and they
Speaker 2: reached out and and uh and we were like, I
Speaker 2: mean nobody was, no one cared, you know what I'm saying, Like,
Speaker 2: no one cared. And so we were like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: someone's interested, and they're like gonna provide us free recording
Speaker 2: time and a free van, and it's like, yeah, these
Speaker 2: are our guys. And then then that happened, and then
Speaker 2: I would say about two months later we Tracy, Tracy
Speaker 2: found out about us, and it kind of all but
Speaker 2: it was just and then it was just like tour,
Speaker 2: get on the road.
Speaker 1: Wait a second, you have a professional manager, but it's
Speaker 1: not like you've been on the road regularly, have a
Speaker 1: lot of recordings. You want to tour. Who the hell
Speaker 1: is gonna book you? Where the hell you gonna play?
Speaker 2: Great question, my friend, that's a great question. Uh we
Speaker 2: we I mean we uh we were booking in our
Speaker 2: sales for a hot minute. But once Tracy got involved,
Speaker 2: it was very much like we got to get a
Speaker 2: booking agent to handle this. And and so once we
Speaker 2: it's went south by southwest you still did that thing,
Speaker 2: you know, and you'd go down there and we got
Speaker 2: hooked up with a high road touring Frank Riley and
Speaker 2: Brian Jonas and Brian's Brian's one of my favorite people
Speaker 2: on the planet and he's the books us to this day.
Speaker 2: And it was just anything and we did anything. We
Speaker 2: would We would play by Misfah's, we would play weddings,
Speaker 2: we would do if there was I mean, if there
Speaker 2: was money at all, anything we'd go do it, and
Speaker 2: and that really we had had a record. We'd had
Speaker 2: our debut record, Half the City, cut in January because
Speaker 2: the band started in July twenty twenty twelve, and then
Speaker 2: we had had a full length album recorded by January
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen. But we sat on that record for a
Speaker 2: whole year and toured on a record that wasn't out.
Speaker 1: When was the logic there?
Speaker 2: I think it was. I mean, I think it was
Speaker 2: just getting getting it. We were kind of, you know,
Speaker 2: we were greener than Goose shit, and we needed to
Speaker 2: get some shows under our belt.
Speaker 1: And in that year, how many times did the band play?
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know, it was. I mean I know
Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen when Half the City came out, we
Speaker 2: were out three hundred days.
Speaker 1: Okay, just to stay there, let's go back. You have
Speaker 1: a professional manager, Tracy, you have this deal with single
Speaker 1: Locke sit on it for you. What does she then
Speaker 1: say about getting a record deal?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean we we had the single lock thing,
Speaker 2: so she's she. I think her thing was like, hey,
Speaker 2: we need to get thirty Tigers involved, and we did
Speaker 2: and they were a great partner, and so that really
Speaker 2: I think that process helped. So there that was the
Speaker 2: That was the label, you know what I mean, Single
Speaker 2: lock was the label. And and then thirty Tigers came
Speaker 2: in and I think helped with a lot of a
Speaker 2: lot of things as well. So it was a it
Speaker 2: was an interesting thing, you know what I mean, because we,
Speaker 2: like I said, we didn't know our ass from the
Speaker 2: hole in the ground. So we we were like, someone's interested, great,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, And so we figured we
Speaker 2: got that figured out, and it you know, and it
Speaker 2: and so we tour twenty thirteen. I mean it was
Speaker 2: I mean, I was I don't know, I was gone.
Speaker 2: I remember being home a lot and uh. And then
Speaker 2: we turned around and did it again the next year
Speaker 2: when Half the City came out in February twenty fourteen.
Speaker 1: Okay, there are eight people in the band, where there
Speaker 1: were six at at time. You're an unknown act going
Speaker 1: on the road. How the hell do you make it
Speaker 1: work economically?
Speaker 2: Well, you got a wife. Our girlfriend is living at home,
Speaker 2: working a job in our one bedroom apartment. I had that.
Speaker 1: What about the other members of the bed They all,
Speaker 1: we all all.
Speaker 2: Of them kept their jobs, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: or we all had to. Luckily, Jesse worked for a
Speaker 2: music shop that he knew really well, and they were
Speaker 2: very understanding, you know what I mean, And Browing was
Speaker 2: painting houses. A couple of guys were still in college
Speaker 2: sort of, so they I think one took an online
Speaker 2: Like we just made it work, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: whether we had to, we just we knew, just made
Speaker 2: it work.
Speaker 1: It's hard enough to keep a three or four piece
Speaker 1: being together. How do you keep an eight piece being together?
Speaker 2: You share the revenue, but.
Speaker 1: Even someone's got a piece with eight ways, I agree
Speaker 1: with you.
Speaker 2: Like I said, I ain't a millionaire, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 1: Okay, so there been some band member changes. Is it
Speaker 1: because somebody came and said, you know, I love this,
Speaker 1: I just can't do this anymore. I don't have any money.
Speaker 1: Or did you basically say hey, we want to make
Speaker 1: a change. How did the members change?
Speaker 2: It was each one had, you know, had its own thing,
Speaker 2: like we had some We had some to say, hey,
Speaker 2: they just weren't fit for touring like that. And to
Speaker 2: be fair, I don't know a lot of people who
Speaker 2: were fit to tour three hundred days out of the year,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like, I really don't. It's
Speaker 2: a really hard thing to do. Luckily we're not at
Speaker 2: that point now. But yay, we had some and then
Speaker 2: we had some that, like you know, it's there needed
Speaker 2: to be a change made, whether you know there was
Speaker 2: personal thing, you know what I mean, you know how
Speaker 2: it is. We've we've only we've had we have change
Speaker 2: drummer and trombone player and that's that's it.
Speaker 1: Okay, So how many people in the band today? Eight
Speaker 1: and you've only changed two members in the whole time we.
Speaker 2: Had Yeah, well we had a saxophone player in but
Speaker 2: he it was kind of one of the it was
Speaker 2: kind of one of us that he had a family.
Speaker 2: So it's yeah, of the original six.
Speaker 1: Yes, just too okay, So you have these eight people,
Speaker 1: you go on the road, just split the money eight ways,
Speaker 1: whatever the net may be.
Speaker 2: Well, it's tricky because we have we have five we
Speaker 2: have owners in the LLC, right, some are not owners,
Speaker 2: some or not. It's really it's actually fairly complicated. I
Speaker 2: feel bad for our business manager, but you know, that's
Speaker 2: why they get paid. So we have five owners that
Speaker 2: were a part of the original, uh situation, and then
Speaker 2: we have three who are not.
Speaker 1: Okay, so there are three side men. So pay on
Speaker 1: the road is different. Yes, what about on the records?
Speaker 1: Same thing?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: We uh like this last record we went uh thirty ten.
Speaker 2: I got thirty percent, they got ten.
Speaker 1: All explain that to me?
Speaker 2: Meaning that so when we wrote the songs or Royal
Speaker 2: Royalty side and writing side, we just do a flat
Speaker 2: thirty thirty. I get thirty percent and then each other
Speaker 2: member gets ten percent.
Speaker 1: Okay, how'd you come up with thirty? How'd you come
Speaker 1: up with the numbers?
Speaker 2: Well, it just makes well because it's a nice round number. Typically,
Speaker 2: when you write lyrics, you know, they people are like, oh,
Speaker 2: fifty percent, and it just can't. That can't work in
Speaker 2: our in our world, you just can't. I can't take
Speaker 2: fifty percent.
Speaker 1: So you're writing No one else is writing lyrics?
Speaker 2: Uh no, no, no, and oh ok with the band songs.
Speaker 1: Okay, when you go to write a song, this is
Speaker 1: like Elton John time. What comes first? The lyrics are
Speaker 1: the music.
Speaker 2: It varies. Sometimes there's a phrase that makes sense, and
Speaker 2: then sometimes the music makes sense. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2: You just kind of build it from either way and
Speaker 2: go from there.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's go back. We're in this narrative. Does
Speaker 1: the Letterman appearance happen.
Speaker 2: Funny enough, the Letterman appearance was a blessing and a
Speaker 2: curse because we that appearance happened January twenty fifteen. We've
Speaker 2: already toured a year on our debut record, okay, so
Speaker 2: we were already pray to the end. So it was
Speaker 2: January twenty fifteen, and then the Letterman thing happens, and
Speaker 2: we're like, oh my god, we got to get back
Speaker 2: out on the road, you know what I mean. And
Speaker 2: I mean it was amazing, it was, and I'm so
Speaker 2: grateful for but it was It's like we were kind
Speaker 2: of at the tail end, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Like we were like, hey, we had a great run.
Speaker 2: That was a lot of fun. We're selling you know,
Speaker 2: two to four hundred ticket, two hundred to four hundred
Speaker 2: tickets in a market, which is great, right, that's a
Speaker 2: great that's a fun place to be, you know. And
Speaker 2: then the Letterman thing happens and we're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: we got to keep going because you have to capitalize
Speaker 2: on them.
Speaker 1: Okay. I don't know who you are. All of a sudden,
Speaker 1: my email starts blowing up about this Letterman appearance. What
Speaker 1: was it like on your side of the fence.
Speaker 2: I mean, it was a TV appearance. I don't know
Speaker 2: what you know what I mean, way we do what
Speaker 2: we do, like, I don't. I the only thing because
Speaker 2: I didn't, I didn't watch it because it's it's it's
Speaker 2: kind of tough watching yourself perform on television. But what
Speaker 2: I remember about it is he does this amazing intro
Speaker 2: at the top of the before we play. It's an
Speaker 2: amazing intro, and I thought, you know, not doing much TV.
Speaker 2: I just thought, oh they cut that part out and
Speaker 2: then he just you know, and then it's the introduction, right,
Speaker 2: And then I heard the introduction was still in there,
Speaker 2: and then I was like, oh my god, Like that
Speaker 2: is a game changer, you know what I mean. I don't.
Speaker 2: For me, like, I don't think the performance was particularly amazing,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, it was kind of what
Speaker 2: we do at that point. I mean, I actually think
Speaker 2: we do better now than we did that we did then.
Speaker 2: But I knew with that introduction being a part of it,
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, this is this could do do something.
Speaker 2: And it did.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's a different era ten years ago. TV means
Speaker 1: something doesn't really mean anything today, right, you hear you're
Speaker 1: gonna be a Letterman before you even go on. What
Speaker 1: do you think? I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean I'm happy, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 2: I don't I mean, I'm thrilled that we're getting I mean,
Speaker 2: we put it.
Speaker 1: A different way. Anybody who's been in this world knows
Speaker 1: that your big break is not usually what you expected
Speaker 1: to be. You say, oh, this is gonna and then
Speaker 1: you do it, nothing happens, and then there are things
Speaker 1: you may not even want to do that turn into
Speaker 1: a big thing. But at the time, being on a
Speaker 1: Letterman was you know, a top slot. So were you thinking, well,
Speaker 1: you know that this could really turn into something.
Speaker 2: I know, I knew that it was important. I mean,
Speaker 2: don't get me wrong, Like I knew that it was
Speaker 2: an important thing, but I just, I mean, we were
Speaker 2: so afraid it was the end of that, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean the end of twenty fourteen. I'd just gotten
Speaker 2: married like a month before the Letterman performance, and I was,
Speaker 2: I mean, I was. It was just like it was
Speaker 2: just like going to another gig. It was like, you know,
Speaker 2: you knew it was important and you knew you had
Speaker 2: to do it, but it wasn't something that I thought, oh, well,
Speaker 2: this is going to change the game. I was honored.
Speaker 2: I always wanted to do Conan O'Brien, like that was
Speaker 2: my goal because I loved Conan O'Brien, which we ended
Speaker 2: up doing. And so Letterman, I mean I understood the
Speaker 2: history of it and all that, but I just it
Speaker 2: was I don't know, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 2: it's one of those things like I didn't I didn't
Speaker 2: think it would have the impact it did for sure.
Speaker 2: I mean there's two things that we've done that we
Speaker 2: just rolled up and did, and that is that and
Speaker 2: a Tiny Desk are the two things that we have
Speaker 2: done that I hear about more than anything. And it's
Speaker 2: just funny thinking back to it, because like it wasn't
Speaker 2: like this big like we're about to we're about to
Speaker 2: do Letterman, you know what I mean, Or we're about
Speaker 2: to do Tiny Desk. It was like, oh, or we're
Speaker 2: here to play. We do the thing, like that's what
Speaker 2: we did.
Speaker 1: Okay, So going back to Letterman, you do it, you
Speaker 1: talk about the curse element that you have to capitalize
Speaker 1: on it. So how much did you work after Letterman for.
Speaker 2: The rest of the year. I mean, we we had to.
Speaker 2: It was hard to find time because you know, it's like, hey,
Speaker 2: you gotta make a new record, right, But it was
Speaker 2: hard to find time. I never forget we were, you know,
Speaker 2: trying to find some other producer or well, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean. And man, it was just like it
Speaker 2: was two days of something that we fit in a
Speaker 2: tour and it was just like, how can you even
Speaker 2: tell what's going on? So eventually you just have to
Speaker 2: learn the word no and uh, which is a hard
Speaker 2: thing to do in that moment. And so we had
Speaker 2: to carve out time. But yeah, I mean, basically because
Speaker 2: it was so impactful, we had to turn around and
Speaker 2: go back on tour and start keep playing shows. And
Speaker 2: we played and played and blade and then we finally
Speaker 2: found some time I think towards towards the winner of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1: Okay, a being this large, it's a dynamic enterprise. Certainly
Speaker 1: you've been doing it in excess of a decade at
Speaker 1: this point in time. Can you open for somebody or
Speaker 1: do you have to be the headline or how does
Speaker 1: it work? We can open, That's not what I mean.
Speaker 1: Of course you can open, but can someone follow you.
Speaker 2: I hope not. I hope not. I hope. I hope
Speaker 2: when we open up for people that they go, all right,
Speaker 2: don't have to bring my working boots today.
Speaker 1: So at this point in time, how many dates a
Speaker 1: year do you work?
Speaker 2: M I'd say we're still at one hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: or so.
Speaker 1: And of that one hundred and fifty, how many times
Speaker 1: are you the headliner?
Speaker 2: M I would say seventy to eighty percent.
Speaker 1: Okay, you go to a show. Every show is different,
Speaker 1: even if the set list is identical. Do you basically
Speaker 1: say I know what we do, like hit the stage
Speaker 1: and we do it or are you judging audience reaction
Speaker 1: and if they're not with you reach out and grab them.
Speaker 2: I mean to me, it's about entertaining the audience, right,
Speaker 2: I think one skill. You know, I'm not a bad singer,
Speaker 2: but I think one skill I do have and I
Speaker 2: definitely learned it in churches, how to read a crowd.
Speaker 2: And we have had moments where it's like this crowd
Speaker 2: ain't here and we got to figure out how to
Speaker 2: get them. So that's what we do. We get them,
Speaker 2: you know, we we either we change the set. I'll
Speaker 2: change the set mid mid show and we will. You know,
Speaker 2: we're you know, we're live musicians. There ain't no tracks,
Speaker 2: so we can do that. We can. It ain't a
Speaker 2: hard thing to be like, hey, we're gonna play something
Speaker 2: else different on this next you know, this next song
Speaker 2: to try and grab the audience. And it depends. I mean,
Speaker 2: early on, people didn't know who we were, so yeah,
Speaker 2: you're definitely like you gotta grab. I was my my
Speaker 2: philosophy early on is if someone came and saw us,
Speaker 2: you're either leaving or staying, and that's it. There ain't
Speaker 2: no I'm gonna You're gonna either be a part of this,
Speaker 2: You're getting out of here, and that's it. That's your
Speaker 2: only options. And uh, and that was the that was
Speaker 2: the thought and the theory. Then now you know, we're
Speaker 2: a little bit more well known, so it's you know,
Speaker 2: they kind of people know kind of what to expect,
Speaker 2: and you try to do something in the show that
Speaker 2: they don't expect, and you try to change the set.
Speaker 2: You know, we look at the top five stream songs
Speaker 2: on Spotify and we make sure we play those songs
Speaker 2: and then everything else is up for grabs, and so
Speaker 2: we try to make the show you know, we have
Speaker 2: people to see us twelve times and so we need
Speaker 2: to you know, change it up a little bit. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I still man, I still want the audience. I want
Speaker 2: it is a way better playing to an audience that
Speaker 2: you that you have had, that you've gotten to not
Speaker 2: and uh and I still I still want. I still
Speaker 2: treat it. I don't treat it much differently in that
Speaker 2: you win one person at a time. So if there's
Speaker 2: somebody in the front row that's not having a good time,
Speaker 2: you're either gonna stay or you're gonna leave. But I'm
Speaker 2: gonna pay attention, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: A little bit more specific. When you try to win
Speaker 1: over people in the audience, other than changing the set list,
Speaker 1: what do you literally do to try to get them
Speaker 1: on board?
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll go go to them, get in the audience,
Speaker 2: go say hello, Go you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 2: get in there, get in their face a little bit,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like engage with them, make
Speaker 2: sure that they know that, make sure that they know
Speaker 2: that you know, they exist, and you get I get
Speaker 2: within it, and then you you know, like there's certain
Speaker 2: moments now where we know, like there's a big note
Speaker 2: coming right that I'm gonna sing and I'll know then
Speaker 2: like okay, that either gets somewhere it doesn't, or do
Speaker 2: something kind of funny or goofy and it makes them laugh,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Just whatever, that's I feel
Speaker 2: like that's the job, right, Like, if you can't do that,
Speaker 2: what the hell are you doing on stage? You know,
Speaker 2: doing the lead singer thing?
Speaker 1: And how do you get hooked up with? Ron Perry
Speaker 1: and Barry Weiss?
Speaker 2: They just you know, were fans of the first record
Speaker 2: and they they they reached out and signed us. They
Speaker 2: you know, Ron was ain't r for songs and got
Speaker 2: us on board with the publishing and it was a
Speaker 2: good relationship from there.
Speaker 1: Were they the only ones interested? No, so you're on
Speaker 1: Letterman all of a sudden the phone starts to ring
Speaker 1: to houst the cliche.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that that I think with half the city, and
Speaker 2: then the Letterman thing happened. Yeah, there was plenty of people,
Speaker 2: But I mean, to be fair, we were with songs.
Speaker 2: I this is what I remember. This is so funny.
Speaker 2: I was literally in New York and we had got
Speaker 2: we had gotten our songs. You would have been with songs,
Speaker 2: and we got paid our advance that's that fourth quarter
Speaker 2: of twenty fourteen. And I remember getting a tax bill
Speaker 2: while I was in New York before Letterman, so I
Speaker 2: was I could just tell you, my friend, it was not.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god. When I got that
Speaker 2: TAXI be and have a wife for like, hang on
Speaker 2: what now? You know you think about all the things
Speaker 2: you're going through with the money, and then you get
Speaker 2: that tax Ben You're like, no, no, a lot of
Speaker 2: that's going to taxes.
Speaker 1: Do you own a house?
Speaker 2: I do? I do? I mean I own a house.
Speaker 2: And that's why we were living in Alabama. Man, it's
Speaker 2: a lot more affordable. Uh and I sure do.
Speaker 1: Okay, what made you go with songs and records as
Speaker 1: opposed to anybody else?
Speaker 2: That's what they sold us. You know, we kind of
Speaker 2: thought in our minds like, you know, we had creative
Speaker 2: control whatever that means these days, you know, I've I've
Speaker 2: learned since that creative control is one of those things
Speaker 2: like yeah, you can have it and you can do
Speaker 2: what you want. But they got if they don't put
Speaker 2: money behind it, it don't matter, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: I think we just had a good relationship. But I
Speaker 2: think I mean this day, like at the solo things
Speaker 2: with Barry. You know, Ron's moved on to Columbia, but
Speaker 2: like the solo things with Barry and he you know,
Speaker 2: he's we still have I think we still have a
Speaker 2: decent relationship.
Speaker 1: And so okay, these are two guys, very experienced. Yes,
Speaker 1: what degree did they give you input or did they
Speaker 1: leave you alone?
Speaker 2: I mean they they cared. I mean, there's no doubt
Speaker 2: about that. I mean, I think you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: like they they had their thoughts on things, but they
Speaker 2: I mean, we did what we wanted, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. Like we would either go, yeah, that sounds
Speaker 2: great or absolutely not, and we wouldn't do it. And
Speaker 2: that's what we would do. And for the most part,
Speaker 2: it wasn't that bad, you know, I think I think
Speaker 2: there was, but this is this is my thing, and
Speaker 2: this is what I say. Like, were there times that
Speaker 2: I think they probably had, you know, a vision for
Speaker 2: the band that the band wasn't Yeah, of course, but
Speaker 2: I don't. Their goal was to make the band huge,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. It wasn't. It wasn't to
Speaker 2: be like, oh, you know, I want to It's like
Speaker 2: they wanted it to be huge, and they had their
Speaker 2: idea what that is and and and it was probably
Speaker 2: a little bit different than the band thought to some degree.
Speaker 2: But I mean our third record was we met the
Speaker 2: producer through them, you know what I mean. So like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't that relationship. I don't. I
Speaker 2: don't really regret that much at all, and still have
Speaker 2: it with Bear Okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, eight members in the band, five were in the LLC.
Speaker 1: Everyone does not agree all the time. How do you
Speaker 1: decide on decisions?
Speaker 2: This is how we this is how we kind of work.
Speaker 2: I get to be president, okay, and then we got Congress, right,
Speaker 2: and sometimes Congress can maybe overrule, but they all understand it.
Speaker 2: If I don't, I'm not into it, it probably ain't
Speaker 2: gonna happen, uh, you know what I mean. So that's
Speaker 2: kind of how it works. I do my damnedest to
Speaker 2: make sure that they are heard and their input is
Speaker 2: considered one hundred percent, and it needs to be because
Speaker 2: sometime there's been moments where I thought something was the
Speaker 2: right idea and they said something. I'm like, well that's
Speaker 2: a really good point, you know what I mean. But
Speaker 2: ultimately small things they don't care. They're like, Paul, do
Speaker 2: your thing when it comes to big decisions like record
Speaker 2: labels and management and stuff like that, they are one
Speaker 2: hundred percent. They have input and they have say and
Speaker 2: that's kind of how we It's worked well that way.
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously we're still here, right and we have
Speaker 2: a system in place that has worked. But they kind
Speaker 2: of for the most part, they kind of leave me,
Speaker 2: you know, they'll leave me to it. And I enjoy it.
Speaker 2: I enjoy the business aspect of this, I really do.
Speaker 2: I think it's a fact, is an incredibly fascinating business.
Speaker 2: It is an ever changing business. And and so I'm
Speaker 2: able to kind of compartmentalize the business side and the
Speaker 2: creative side. I don't I don't let them bleed, because
Speaker 2: the moment you start doing that's the moment you start
Speaker 2: getting in trouble.
Speaker 1: How did it become same Pawn, the Broken Bones, the
Speaker 1: name and how many other names before that?
Speaker 2: Well, Jesse the bass player came up with a name
Speaker 2: because of this, you know. He he wanted like Martha
Speaker 2: Reeves and the Vandellas, you know what I mean, he
Speaker 2: want and uh, you know, and I was like whatever,
Speaker 2: and he was, you know, the Saint Paul, Saint Paul
Speaker 2: thing about the church background and all that kind of stuff,
Speaker 2: and then the Broken Bones. I mean, the first song
Speaker 2: we wrote together for this was Broken Bones, and Pocket
Speaker 2: Change was is a song on the first record and
Speaker 2: the EP, and it it kind of made sense. And
Speaker 2: I mean it was one of those that was it
Speaker 2: and it was one of those names that stayed. We
Speaker 2: never thought anything about it. We just oh, we'll change
Speaker 2: the name later, and then later never came. And that's
Speaker 2: what we are now.
Speaker 1: Okay, you've traveled the world. You came to popular culture late,
Speaker 1: but you must have had pinched me moments meeting certain people.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that?
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely. I mean we've gotten to meet Elton John.
Speaker 2: This is the name drop part of that. This is
Speaker 2: the name drop part right. Yeah, you know we've gotten
Speaker 2: to meet Elton John. We've gotten to meet the Rolling Stones,
Speaker 2: we opened up for them a few times. I mean,
Speaker 2: we've gotten to meet Herbie Hancock, someone that we really,
Speaker 2: really really admire. We've gotten to meet all sorts of
Speaker 2: folks and and honestly, you know, I I look at someone.
Speaker 2: We got to we got to do something. If there's
Speaker 2: a local or it's not local, it's the egal Justice Initiative,
Speaker 2: which is in Montgomery, Alabama. We got to meet a
Speaker 2: guy named Brian Stevenson, who I think is one of
Speaker 2: the one of my heroes, you know, just heroes people
Speaker 2: like that. Those are the people more that I admire.
Speaker 2: Musicians are great. I love meet, Don't get me wrong, Like,
Speaker 2: there ain't a lot of people that have met Elton
Speaker 2: John and the Rolling Stalls. You know, I get that,
Speaker 2: and I understand that. But for me, it's it's more
Speaker 2: people that that kind of dedicate their life life to
Speaker 2: service that I really do admire. But yeah, I've gotten
Speaker 2: to meet all sorts of people. Man, I've gotten to
Speaker 2: meet all sorts of people that I never thought in
Speaker 2: a thousand years that I would meet.
Speaker 1: And Okay, Elton is a real MU music fan, and
Speaker 1: he's gonna know who you are. He will have listened
Speaker 1: to your music, you know. Well, let's put it this way.
Speaker 1: I know the promoters of the Stones, okay, and the
Speaker 1: Stone I know people. Let's put it this way. Did
Speaker 1: you meet Mick and Keith and did they know who
Speaker 1: you were?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: Yes, that must have felt that must have made like wow,
Speaker 1: Well I.
Speaker 2: Didn't grow up with the Rolling Stones, so I was
Speaker 2: like cool. Now, let me tell you this. The rest
Speaker 2: of the guys in the band were shitting their pants.
Speaker 2: I mean they they they were like, oh my good,
Speaker 2: like they were nervous. I was just kind of like,
Speaker 2: I mean it was I knew it was cool, and
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to downplay it. I'm really not. But
Speaker 2: I didn't grow up with them, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: I didn't grow up with them. So Keith uh was
Speaker 2: a big fan of was. I had an interview with
Speaker 2: the Rolling Stones writer that was like, Hey, I have
Speaker 2: asked Keith for many years what his favorite band, new
Speaker 2: up and coming band is, and he never gives me
Speaker 2: an answer. And he said, y'all's name the time, and
Speaker 2: he's like, so I had to interview you to see
Speaker 2: what the hell is this about? And I was just
Speaker 2: like cool, I mean, you know, but you know Kisa
Speaker 2: Old he loves Otis Redding and you know, he's got
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like he loves that stuff.
Speaker 2: And so they were super nice and I got to
Speaker 2: hang out with them a little bit and and yeah,
Speaker 2: it was it was a pretty amazing experience.
Speaker 1: Okay, see you make this leads record. You're working with
Speaker 1: thirty Tigers, which is more of a marketing enterprise. What's
Speaker 1: the budget for this record?
Speaker 2: What is the budget? I mean it's it's six digits,
Speaker 2: you know, it's mid six digits.
Speaker 1: And it's all your money.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, I mean yeah, so you know how
Speaker 2: that works? Like right, you know, like yes, sort of?
Speaker 1: Well did you have to save up the money?
Speaker 2: No, we did not have to save up the money. No,
Speaker 2: we got it. We got it from we got it
Speaker 2: from thirty tigers.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's go back to what you were saying,
Speaker 1: being with you still have a solo deal? Does Barry
Speaker 1: expect you to make a record.
Speaker 2: We're working on? I mean, we're working. They're not. They
Speaker 2: they are. They're patient, man, They're patient, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. Like they they're just like they want the
Speaker 2: right song, right thing.
Speaker 1: What's going to be different about that as opposed to
Speaker 1: a band record?
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not within the band enterprise, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, Like, it's not it's working with another
Speaker 2: producer or you know, maybe maybe a third in the room,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like whatever, whatever it might be,
Speaker 2: I don't I don't. I think that's the problem with
Speaker 2: that project in general is that I'm not really sure.
Speaker 2: But they're they're really patient, which I'm grateful for, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like they're not pressing me like hey,
Speaker 2: we gotta we gotta get you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Like something will pop up and I'll be like, yeah,
Speaker 2: hey that sounds you know, if I like the song,
Speaker 2: if I like the producer or a song or whatever
Speaker 2: it might be, I'll be like, yeah, let's let's give
Speaker 2: it a try. See if I like getting. If I don't,
Speaker 2: then we go from there. But they're not They're not
Speaker 2: in any hurry.
Speaker 1: Okay, So tell me again how you meet Egg and
Speaker 1: how that proceeds.
Speaker 2: So I was with it was working on the solo,
Speaker 2: this working solo stuff, and he they flied me out
Speaker 2: to London and I work with a few people and
Speaker 2: it was it was kind of a disaster trip in
Speaker 2: a lot of ways. But the last day I work
Speaker 2: with Egg and we write this song and it's it's
Speaker 2: not on the record, but it was a great song.
Speaker 2: And then and we were just like oh, and I
Speaker 2: think Barry and Everybody's like ooh, that song, that's it,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like wow, And so I
Speaker 2: go back over there and then I think, what kind
Speaker 2: of happens we write together. We write a lot of
Speaker 2: stuff together. It kind of I think with Barry and them,
Speaker 2: they kind of go okay, like this stuff's good, but
Speaker 2: you know, I don't think it really got them going.
Speaker 2: So we're like, okay, we'll is whatever right, you know,
Speaker 2: like whatever, just kind of sitting in it. Then some
Speaker 2: of the guys in the band here the songs, and
Speaker 2: they go what the hell is going on here? Like
Speaker 2: why are we not? You know? And I was like, well,
Speaker 2: you know, it's just where it goes, which you know
Speaker 2: is definitely frustrated in there, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: But it's like, hey, what do you do? So the band?
Speaker 2: Here is it? We have? We started having a discussion.
Speaker 2: We talked to records like, hey, is it okay if
Speaker 2: we get a song or two of these you know
Speaker 2: what I mean? Like, which they were fine with. And
Speaker 2: then then uh then it then it turned into the
Speaker 2: band gets together rights. Then we're going, who's producing this record?
Speaker 2: And Egg hadn't produced the band record since the nineties.
Speaker 2: Oh it was like you know what I mean, like
Speaker 2: he he did doesn't leave London, he just doesn't. And
Speaker 2: so we I was like, oh and we had back.
Speaker 2: We were already talking about like backup. But I was like, hey,
Speaker 2: you know, everyone's like, well, let's just see if he's
Speaker 2: interested in producing. He's made these cool, cool, good sounding demos.
Speaker 2: So we were like maybe. And I was like, hey,
Speaker 2: all right, I want we want you to produce this
Speaker 2: record band songs and a couple of me and him songs.
Speaker 2: Would you be willing to come to Alabama to Fame
Speaker 2: studios and record and produce? And he was He was
Speaker 2: like that sounds like a great idea. I just have
Speaker 2: to figure out who's gonna walk my dog? And I
Speaker 2: was like what, and that's that's And once he figured
Speaker 2: that out, he he said yes, and he came over
Speaker 2: and it was an amazing experience.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. Yeah, how those songs you wrote
Speaker 1: with egg? When you start writing songs with the band,
Speaker 1: how do you do that? What does that look like?
Speaker 2: We just we were we were we There was a
Speaker 2: studio up in in uh in muscle shows that we
Speaker 2: could did. We have a really great rate on We
Speaker 2: know the the engineer that works there, and we go.
Speaker 2: It's funny. Birmingham used to be the place where we
Speaker 2: could all meet and not have to pay for hotels.
Speaker 2: But Now Muscle Sholes is because we have a few
Speaker 2: people that live there and we can stay at their houses.
Speaker 2: So we stay up there basically for free, and we
Speaker 2: just rent the studio for not it's not it's nothing.
Speaker 2: And we just sit in the room and write and
Speaker 2: we can record this great because we can record the
Speaker 2: demos and it's a really cheap rate and it's and
Speaker 2: we have an engineer there, and so we just sit
Speaker 2: in the room and write and we just see what happens.
Speaker 1: Okay, Sheffield, Alabama, Muscle Shoals, Florence legendary place. Is there
Speaker 1: really anything there, anything special? Or just the fact that
Speaker 1: the swampers just happen to be there?
Speaker 2: Now, why would you ask a question like that. Of course,
Speaker 2: it's all in the water. You just take a dip
Speaker 2: of the water and you drink it and everyone can
Speaker 2: play amazing music. That's what happens. Uh That. No, I
Speaker 2: think I think truly what it is is you know
Speaker 2: that especially was a moment in time, right. But I
Speaker 2: also think here's the thing about muscle that area and
Speaker 2: people And I know I get it, people are playing
Speaker 2: in studios less and less, you know, doing home stuff
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. But you have world class studios
Speaker 2: that are still up and running and are maintained for
Speaker 2: the most part now because of grants and all sorts
Speaker 2: of stuff. And they're fairly inexpensive compared to a Nashville
Speaker 2: or LA or places like that. So it economically, it
Speaker 2: just makes way more sense. And the other thing, there
Speaker 2: ain't as many distractions up there as there is in
Speaker 2: Nashville or LA. There ain't no ain't nobody gonna have
Speaker 2: a meeting in muscle Shoals. Ain't nobody gonna have to
Speaker 2: go talk to the Spotify people in muscle Shoals, do
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? And so you have the
Speaker 2: ability to just sit and play. I mean, that's for us.
Speaker 2: It makes sense for us, Like we don't go to
Speaker 2: Nashville to do that. We don't go down you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, Like we don't go to Birmingham now
Speaker 2: because it just makes way more economic sense to go
Speaker 2: up to muscle shows and for what especially for what
Speaker 2: we do. And there's people there that work, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean. Like there there is still you do feel,
Speaker 2: especially being from here, and it's a region, it's regional, right,
Speaker 2: being from here, there is a you do feel like
Speaker 2: that there's people walk in the street, you know, like
Speaker 2: Davidhood and all Spooner Old and all these guys who
Speaker 2: play down you know, they used to do a gig
Speaker 2: at the you know, on a Friday night, who've played
Speaker 2: on records that you could never even dream about playing on,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. And there is that legacy,
Speaker 2: and some of the guys that grew up there like
Speaker 2: just what you grow up around, and so there is
Speaker 2: there is a maybe a legacy to uphall uphold that
Speaker 2: you feel that obligation a little bit, you know, not
Speaker 2: that I don't necessarily feel like we're a part of
Speaker 2: that or anything, a very small part maybe, but that
Speaker 2: that is that is real, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: But as far as like I mean, how many people
Speaker 2: just sitting in a room, I mean, it's a special
Speaker 2: moment in time and just playing and and you have
Speaker 2: to have talent, of course, but there's yeah, to me,
Speaker 2: and especially with our band, it's about chemistry and that
Speaker 2: that's hard to come by, you know, And I don't
Speaker 2: think a lot of people do it as much anymore.
Speaker 1: Okay, recall had theme, everybody played it fame and then
Speaker 1: a bunch of guys went over and created Muscle Shoal
Speaker 1: Sound Studios. How'd you end up with? Theme? Does Muscle
Speaker 1: Shoal Sound Studios really exist anymore?
Speaker 2: It does? It's it is muscle show sound, like I
Speaker 2: want to say, is it doctor dre or somebody put
Speaker 2: a lot of money into it and it's it's revamped.
Speaker 2: It's it is more museine Zen MUSEUMI I guess, more
Speaker 2: more of a music zim type place. But you can
Speaker 2: you can record in there. I mean they're still they
Speaker 2: have an engineer that works there, Like there's you can
Speaker 2: record it. Muscle shows Sound and Fame I know, has
Speaker 2: gone through a lot of work to get to where
Speaker 2: they When we first started, it wasn't bad to record there.
Speaker 2: It's just like there's there was kind of a lot
Speaker 2: of ghost in the machine, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: where you're like you hit the hit hit a button
Speaker 2: and you you know what I mean, that kind of thing.
Speaker 2: But they've really done an amazing job of making that
Speaker 2: place a great place to record now for modern times.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean there's still there's still you can
Speaker 2: still do it the old What is funny though about
Speaker 2: Fame and this is like I said, I get it.
Speaker 2: I know it's it's a point of revenue for them.
Speaker 2: The only concession you have to make is they do
Speaker 2: tours every day at the studio, so you have you
Speaker 2: have like a uh like I think it was like
Speaker 2: they were really good about it, but you there was
Speaker 2: there was usually about a twenty minute part of the
Speaker 2: day where they were gonna come to the studio you're recording,
Speaker 2: so you had to stop recording and we'd hide in
Speaker 2: the in the desk, you know, in the in the
Speaker 2: control room.
Speaker 1: That's funny, Okay. So how much time did it take
Speaker 1: to record the record?
Speaker 2: Took a week a week, that is fast. We did well.
Speaker 2: I say that I don't want to I don't want
Speaker 2: to miss misspeak. We did a week of tracking with
Speaker 2: the band and me singing roughs, and then did another
Speaker 2: couple days of me singing, and then you know, you
Speaker 2: go through your whole process of you know, making the
Speaker 2: sounds right and all that jazz.
Speaker 1: Okay, did egg do any pre production before you went
Speaker 1: in the studio?
Speaker 2: I mean he brought over I'll tell you this man,
Speaker 2: he brought over some damn expensive mics. I know that. Uh,
Speaker 2: he brought him in and brought him in in a
Speaker 2: duffel Back because he didn't want to check him in,
Speaker 2: so he I was like, you carried a duffel Back
Speaker 2: with a sixty thousand dollars MiCT and on the airline,
Speaker 2: you crazy fella. But he brought some of those. He
Speaker 2: had some of those amazing, you know, amazing vocal mics
Speaker 2: with them. But I mean there was, like I said,
Speaker 2: we had we had demoed out pretty you know, we
Speaker 2: knew the songs, so we had demoed out pretty good.
Speaker 2: But uh, there was a lot of where and I
Speaker 2: think I think where he's just incredibly special, especially with
Speaker 2: our band, was there were a few songs I was like,
Speaker 2: the arrangement just wasn't right, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: It just wasn't right. And like any great producer would do,
Speaker 2: he was like, hey, this isn't right. Let's and we
Speaker 2: experimented and then we found the right and it was
Speaker 2: like it made the song good to great and that
Speaker 2: that's what was really special about it.
Speaker 1: And those are the arrangements. How about you wrote some
Speaker 1: songs with him? The are the ones you wrote with
Speaker 1: the band? Did he give any input and change to
Speaker 1: the other songs?
Speaker 2: I mean it was his, That's that was the thing
Speaker 2: that me and him talked about was like, this is
Speaker 2: your record. You are producing this record. There's not band
Speaker 2: songs or egg songs. I think only two ex me
Speaker 2: and songs ended up on the record. And he he
Speaker 2: he is an like I said, he's a very interesting
Speaker 2: person because he knows what he wants and so he
Speaker 2: he's like, my name is gonna be on this, Like
Speaker 2: he put input on everything, which I it was great.
Speaker 2: It's great to be challenged. I think at this point
Speaker 2: when you you get kind of fat and happy, right
Speaker 2: and you think, oh, yeah, I know what to do.
Speaker 2: I've been doing this now a few times, and it's like, no,
Speaker 2: I like, I like when people challenging. You know, they
Speaker 2: don't have to be assholes, but I like getting challenged
Speaker 2: a bit. And you know, and I think he definitely
Speaker 2: did that for everybody in a very uh British way.
Speaker 1: Go a little deeper, tell me more.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean he would he would I never forget
Speaker 2: like vocal producers like him doing vocals with me and
Speaker 2: he would uh he would say, oh, you know, he would.
Speaker 2: We would talk about soft and hard and he's like, no,
Speaker 2: you need to open up more. You need to be
Speaker 2: a little bit off tune here, you know what I mean? Like,
Speaker 2: which I was like, who in the hell tells you that?
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying? Like like, but he was like,
Speaker 2: it has more feeling there, that has more you know
Speaker 2: what I mean? And he's like, you know, and I
Speaker 2: could do head to chest really quick. And so we
Speaker 2: had to make that debate like all right, we're going
Speaker 2: through the through the head voice, but let's you know,
Speaker 2: can you go sweep into from head to voice kind
Speaker 2: of you know what I mean? Like all sorts of
Speaker 2: stuff is a vocal producer that I was like, this
Speaker 2: is a new level. Cause sometimes this isn't anock only boby,
Speaker 2: but sometimes I go they they either he did he's
Speaker 2: singing and go oh well that's great, and it's like, okay,
Speaker 2: well if I can do that, then i'd have done
Speaker 2: that on my own. I need someone to go, hey,
Speaker 2: can you you know what I mean? And he really did.
Speaker 2: I know, he challenged me, which I loved. I loved
Speaker 2: getting you know what I mean, I really did.
Speaker 1: And what'd you do for an engineer?
Speaker 2: We got Matt ross Bang, who had produced the last
Speaker 2: two records, which Matt ross Bang is an I mean
Speaker 2: if you want someone. That's what we were trying to do.
Speaker 2: Because we had no idea how it was going to
Speaker 2: go with Egg, we it could have been a complete disaster,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. And so I had to
Speaker 2: ask Matt Is, like, hey man, can you come in
Speaker 2: and and like just make sure that this you know,
Speaker 2: and because he had done engineering with Dave Cobb and
Speaker 2: you know, he's producing now and he produced our other
Speaker 2: records and we're we're you know, we're friends outside of this,
Speaker 2: and which you know, I didn't know how he'd feel,
Speaker 2: but he was. MAT's Matt's amazing and I knew that
Speaker 2: organic part that we wanted to capture because we didn't
Speaker 2: want it to be a super polished record. Matt being there,
Speaker 2: I knew would help that process. But we didn't know
Speaker 2: how Egg and Matt would work. We didn't know. We
Speaker 2: didn't know if that was going to be a disaster,
Speaker 2: but it ended up being in the studio one of
Speaker 2: the best experiences I've ever had.
Speaker 1: What did uh Matt say about being demoted?
Speaker 2: He did? He It was one of those one of
Speaker 2: those that you're like, I I and I for me,
Speaker 2: I was like I understand whatever he says, do you
Speaker 2: know what I mean if he's like, hey, man, no,
Speaker 2: I've I've produced the last couple of records, Like I
Speaker 2: just feel like maybe that's not my thing. But but
Speaker 2: I was like, I have to make the call because
Speaker 2: I know he's a great fit. And and then he
Speaker 2: gets compensated for it, right like it's a it's a gig.
Speaker 2: So uh, he was Matt. You'd have to know Matt.
Speaker 2: He he's a he's a good dude, and and it
Speaker 2: was a but yeah, no, I mean I definitely I
Speaker 2: didn't I thought he would say no. I mean I did,
Speaker 2: because he had produced the last two records and done
Speaker 2: a phenomenal job. It was just with the egg stuff
Speaker 2: having we didn't know how many of the X songs
Speaker 2: were going to be on there, and we just thought
Speaker 2: it was a it was an interesting fit and uh
Speaker 2: and we never knew I didn't know how Matt would
Speaker 2: act or react, and Matt's amazing and and and just
Speaker 2: to make that work was a really was was I'm ill.
Speaker 2: I'll be eternally grateful.
Speaker 1: Okay, how long ago was the record cut?
Speaker 2: When did we cut this thing? January? So how do
Speaker 2: you feel.
Speaker 1: About waiting almost a year for the record to come.
Speaker 2: Out, buddy, that is it is torture. It is torture.
Speaker 2: I mean we went through this thing because it took
Speaker 2: us a while to get the sound right, you know,
Speaker 2: we just because we did it that way. It took
Speaker 2: us a long time to get the mixing right and
Speaker 2: wear everything laid. And Egg, once again, is a very
Speaker 2: particular person, so it took a long time. And Egg's
Speaker 2: also super busy. You know, he's doing writing sessions constantly,
Speaker 2: so figuring out his schedule and the mats producing stuff
Speaker 2: and all of that intertwining. It took much longer than
Speaker 2: we thought. So we debated. We were like, okay, we
Speaker 2: thought the thing would be out by May or you
Speaker 2: know whatever, and just that process took a long time.
Speaker 2: I mean, what's been beautiful about this is it feels
Speaker 2: worth it. If it didn't feel worth it, I'd be
Speaker 2: really upset. But we were gonna do a fall tour,
Speaker 2: you know, album release tour, and then we kicked it
Speaker 2: to the spring. We're doing the European European UK tour
Speaker 2: and in the winter, so like we this I I
Speaker 2: was supposed to not have time for stuff like this
Speaker 2: this time of year, but it's just how it fell.
Speaker 1: Economically, you guys can afford to stay home.
Speaker 2: It's funny you asked that. I'll tell you this. It's
Speaker 2: been a lot of Aldie and Turkey sandwiches. Uh, that's
Speaker 2: a that's just where we're at. But uh, we we
Speaker 2: we we make it work. We can make it work.
Speaker 2: We're we're we're doing the best we can as far
Speaker 2: as that goes. Like I said, it's affordable to live here,
Speaker 2: so it makes it. But yeah, you you talk about
Speaker 2: thinking you're doing a fall tour and then moving it
Speaker 2: to the spring. Yeah, economically that was like who okay, Oki,
Speaker 2: But I do think it's the right decision. You just
Speaker 2: got to figure it out.
Speaker 1: And what does the band mean in the UK and Europe?
Speaker 2: Well, uh, the good thing is they're going to service
Speaker 2: the record this time. We've had a few of those
Speaker 2: where they haven't serviced the record over there. It's been
Speaker 2: a trial over there. We haven't given up on it.
Speaker 2: We break even. I do. I'm very optimistic about this record.
Speaker 2: I'll just I don't Maybe it's just me being a
Speaker 2: hopeless romantic, but we you know, we can sell two
Speaker 2: thousand tickets in London. We sell you know, close to
Speaker 2: two thousand in Amsterdam. So we can do okay, But
Speaker 2: we've had a few records where just nobody's really worked them,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like I can't tell you
Speaker 2: that I mean, and which is always really frustrating because
Speaker 2: that is a market for us that can be something,
Speaker 2: but it just hasn't.
Speaker 1: So how many tickets do you sell in the US?
Speaker 1: What kind of venues.
Speaker 2: We I mean, we can sell. I mean it depends.
Speaker 2: It's gone down a little bit, but we can sell
Speaker 2: we I mean, like we sold out the Beacon Theater
Speaker 2: last time we played in New York, which is nothing
Speaker 2: to sniff at. Right in the South, we can sell
Speaker 2: some tickets, which is not typical of a ton of
Speaker 2: artists unless your country. So I would say we're in
Speaker 2: that like three to fifteen hundred one thousand range.
Speaker 1: Okay, Now the record's going to come out. What's going
Speaker 1: to be different from any other record? And what are
Speaker 1: your hopes this time around? And what are people doing
Speaker 1: that they're not doing before? Other than social media?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean we've had some people write about sushi
Speaker 2: and Coca cola.
Speaker 1: Yeah I heard about that.
Speaker 2: Did you hear about that? Uh? Yeah, we've had I
Speaker 2: told I told I told our team. I was like,
Speaker 2: we just need to make that the bio. That's about
Speaker 2: the best description. It was scary how these things were
Speaker 2: right about it. We were like, oh, I got especially
Speaker 2: you brought up money. He's like, yep, he's right. But
Speaker 2: we had that which you know, it's funny I heard,
Speaker 2: you know, I heard a lot about that, as you
Speaker 2: can imagine. I think, you know it's I mean, you
Speaker 2: know this, and you're in this. You're what makes a
Speaker 2: difference anymore. And I really don't know. What I have
Speaker 2: come to realize is that you just build your own mountain.
Speaker 2: And whether it's through social media or YouTube or whatever
Speaker 2: it might be, you build your own mountain, okay, and
Speaker 2: building your own mountain. Just get good at that. And
Speaker 2: I think for us, we have a bunch of live
Speaker 2: stuff that were released, like as far as performances that
Speaker 2: were releasing around the record were you know, radio stuff
Speaker 2: is doing well triple A. But once again, I don't
Speaker 2: know what that means anymore. Some of the streaming numbers
Speaker 2: have been good, like in our world, been good. It's
Speaker 2: not like it's you know, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: I will say this though we've had two records like
Speaker 2: I know what momentum, A little momentum feels like, and
Speaker 2: I know what it you know, I know what no
Speaker 2: momentum feels like. And I will say there's a little
Speaker 2: momentum with this that feels good, especially in the UK
Speaker 2: and EU, and that's that's a much better feeling. I'll
Speaker 2: say that. I think that this record we have for
Speaker 2: the longest done a like conceptual records, like where there's
Speaker 2: a concept that we kind of build around it, so
Speaker 2: it's not as much it's more about the concept than
Speaker 2: it is maybe the songs. And we approach this record
Speaker 2: as like every song needs to be the song, build
Speaker 2: it that way, and we've funny enough, I know, this
Speaker 2: is crazy. We've never built a record that way. It's
Speaker 2: always been like, well, what's the vibe, how's the vibe fit?
Speaker 2: It's like, no best song wins, So the ten best
Speaker 2: songs And that's how we've written the record, which is
Speaker 2: I know it's counter to what a lot of people do,
Speaker 2: but that's or you know, usually that's how most people
Speaker 2: write records. But that's the first time we've ever really
Speaker 2: done that. And so that's what we did.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I was going to ask you some questions.
Speaker 1: You answered about today's you know, crazy landscape. But you
Speaker 1: have to build your own mountain. You know exactly what's
Speaker 1: going on. It's you know, it's hard to feel what's
Speaker 1: going on. Spoke about momentum. I think we've covered it, Paul,
Speaker 1: it's been great talking to you. As I said earlier,
Speaker 1: you never knew who somebody is in or talk to him.
Speaker 2: What I have to ask what did you What did
Speaker 2: you think I will? What did you think?
Speaker 1: You're a guy who's dynamic on stage. You have to
Speaker 1: work yourself up to do that. I mean, there's some
Speaker 1: instinctive thing, but it's a performance, right, as you say, entertainment. Right.
Speaker 1: If let's just assume you Paul went to visit teenage
Speaker 1: Paul and Chelsea, someone who knew nothing. Okay, I said.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm in this band. We play around the world.
Speaker 3: People say you, yeah, you know, you're not that guy.
Speaker 1: You know, blah blah blah blah. Boy, You're You're just
Speaker 1: like me, so you know. And the other thing is
Speaker 1: a lot of people are road weary.
Speaker 3: They've been doing it so long that everything's kind of
Speaker 3: like punching the clock. I mean, people are not gonna
Speaker 3: We had some technical issues at the beginning. You know,
Speaker 3: you could have been oh man, I I you know,
Speaker 3: we had a start time. Now you know we're slipping.
Speaker 3: I got to you know, uh jr cough later. I mean,
Speaker 3: come on, so.
Speaker 1: You're like, oh yeah, cool man, We're gonna work it out.
Speaker 3: I mean, I you know, I don't you know, you
Speaker 3: got a big operation, you got a big band, you
Speaker 3: got a wife and and a kid.
Speaker 1: But you're a friendly guy. I mean, you know, you
Speaker 1: meet somebody that's a good guy.
Speaker 2: Like to hang with it. Yeah yeah, I mean seriously,
Speaker 2: Like for me, I know this is crazy, but I
Speaker 2: actually love love. I mean I worked on paving cruise.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 2: I love what I do, and I will that this
Speaker 2: beat the shit out of that on my on my
Speaker 2: worst day of this, it's still better than my best
Speaker 2: day on that and I it doesn't feel that long ago,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. But but no, I appreciate it,
Speaker 2: and I want to say I do appreciate what you wrote. Uh.
Speaker 2: I heard from a lot of industry people and it
Speaker 2: was really funny because I was I told him that,
Speaker 2: I was like, that might be one of the most
Speaker 2: glowing things.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: I've ever seen them rit and I really appreciated that
Speaker 2: it I'll tell I'll tell you for the band and everything,
Speaker 2: it meant a lot. It meant like it was the
Speaker 2: sign of like, Okay, at least somebody gets it. And
Speaker 2: it felt really good. So just letting you know.
Speaker 1: That makes me smile. But I'll just reiterate, you know,
Speaker 1: totally honest, totally how I felt. I was just listening
Speaker 1: to the song and I had those feelings and no
Speaker 1: one was paying me, no one. I hadn't met you before,
Speaker 1: But that's what we're all looking for. This is what
Speaker 1: people say, Oh the odds are stacked against me, et cetera,
Speaker 1: et cetera. If anybody he's something they really think is great,
Speaker 1: they want to tell everybody about it.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: It's like, hey, I found this because so much of
Speaker 1: the stuff is just mediocre.
Speaker 2: I know. I'm with you, I'm with you, I hear you.
Speaker 2: I just know it was I'm just saying. And it
Speaker 2: made it to the group thread and everyone was just
Speaker 2: you know, it's validating in a way. Do you know
Speaker 2: what I mean? Because you know what you know this
Speaker 2: like what we do doesn't make economic sense and we
Speaker 2: make it work, but we do it because we feel
Speaker 2: like it's the best thing to do, and that's that's
Speaker 2: a it's a validay, so I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: Well, that's the last word.
Speaker 3: Paul.
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for talking to my audience,
Speaker 1: taking this time till next time. This is Bob left
Speaker 1: such