1
00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,680
Speaker 1: Okay, guys, well, I have a really exciting guest today,

2
00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,439
Speaker 1: comedian and author Jen Kirkman. Thank you so much for

3
00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,200
Speaker 1: taking some time to talk to me today. Welcome. I'm

4
00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:24,000
Speaker 1: so glad to be here, and I'm in a room.

5
00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:25,960
Speaker 1: You can probably see there's a couch behind me, and

6
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,400
Speaker 1: I feel like I should be on the couch, not

7
00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:30,639
Speaker 1: in my swivel chair here. Well, if you want to,

8
00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,440
Speaker 1: you could get sit on the couch and we'll have

9
00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,800
Speaker 1: a whole conversation that way. You know. That's funny is

10
00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,040
Speaker 1: I have so many people. You know, my office. I

11
00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,479
Speaker 1: have like a big, long, normal couch you would have

12
00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,240
Speaker 1: in a therapy office, and then I have like my chair,

13
00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,760
Speaker 1: which is like a more standard like lounge chair, and

14
00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,720
Speaker 1: people will come in often and be like, one little bit,

15
00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:51,600
Speaker 1: where do I sit? And I'm like, well, I guess

16
00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,720
Speaker 1: you could choose which spot you want, But also they're

17
00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,320
Speaker 1: like do I lay down? I get the do I

18
00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,360
Speaker 1: laid down question? But where do I sit? You just

19
00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 1: want to go, oh, what was a client? Do you

20
00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,480
Speaker 1: ever think that? Just judge, I don't ever wonder that,

21
00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,400
Speaker 1: but I do. I think, like speaking, we're gonna talk

22
00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,360
Speaker 1: about anxiety to day, but I think like if you've

23
00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,240
Speaker 1: never been to therapy, never and you don't have a

24
00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,319
Speaker 1: lot of experience with it, there's so much anxiety that

25
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,840
Speaker 1: it's almost like you black out and you don't even

26
00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,160
Speaker 1: know what you're saying, are doing. So sometimes I think

27
00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,360
Speaker 1: that like where do I sit? It's like they just

28
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,840
Speaker 1: need some guidance. They just don't know what to do

29
00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,640
Speaker 1: with their hands, Like they just like are so nervous. Yeah,

30
00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,240
Speaker 1: they're probably not actually asking that, but they're just saying, okay,

31
00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,280
Speaker 1: I'm your hands out. Um. But the laid down thing,

32
00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:37,600
Speaker 1: I'm like, if you want to lay down, I guess

33
00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:39,280
Speaker 1: you can lay down. But people don't really do that

34
00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,560
Speaker 1: as much these days. I know, I was disappointed to

35
00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,240
Speaker 1: find out that you really don't know what they're ever

36
00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,800
Speaker 1: taken that I have to be very present and awake. Okay,

37
00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,360
Speaker 1: So what I was saying before we hit record is

38
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,480
Speaker 1: that I love I love the podcast because I love

39
00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,200
Speaker 1: that I get to teach things, and I love that

40
00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,080
Speaker 1: I get to have experts come talk about things because

41
00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,080
Speaker 1: I'm a therapist, but I'm not an expert in everything

42
00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:06,000
Speaker 1: that comes with mental health. We have specialties. And then

43
00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,160
Speaker 1: there's these other episodes I don't get to do as

44
00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,800
Speaker 1: much where I'm just like talking to a human being

45
00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,360
Speaker 1: about their story and mental health. And that's what we're

46
00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,359
Speaker 1: going to do today. And Jen actually started a new

47
00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,760
Speaker 1: podcast called Anxiety Bites, which I will go ahead and

48
00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,800
Speaker 1: vouch for now because I've listened to two episodes. It's

49
00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,160
Speaker 1: really good and I think it's something that we need.

50
00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,760
Speaker 1: I have some questions about what made you start it,

51
00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 1: but I've heard enough of your story where I'm like,

52
00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,000
Speaker 1: I want to ask some questions, like she just left

53
00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:36,880
Speaker 1: me hanging there and she said this thing, and then

54
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:38,480
Speaker 1: I have I want to talk to her, and now

55
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,400
Speaker 1: I get to talk to you. So um, that's what

56
00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,240
Speaker 1: we're gonna do today, is we're gonna hear somebody's story.

57
00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,400
Speaker 1: And before we get going, I want to say thank you,

58
00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,040
Speaker 1: because this might be something that you talk about a lot,

59
00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:50,400
Speaker 1: and so it might not be that big of a

60
00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,440
Speaker 1: deal to you anymore. But I always think it's a

61
00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,600
Speaker 1: big deal when we allow ourselves to share these things

62
00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,640
Speaker 1: that generally aren't shared as much. No, I agree, And

63
00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,120
Speaker 1: I think my anxiety story keeps changing, and there's been

64
00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,280
Speaker 1: new developments in the last few years as I discovered

65
00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,880
Speaker 1: things and realized things. So it's still kind of a

66
00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,800
Speaker 1: big deal for me. And in a way that I'm

67
00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,440
Speaker 1: not like this thing who cares. I really like saying

68
00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,600
Speaker 1: my whole story. And I think that most like one

69
00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,400
Speaker 1: thing I was wrong about was how many people think

70
00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,680
Speaker 1: every single thing that they've experienced in their anxiety is

71
00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,600
Speaker 1: only them, which makes it worse. And so people can

72
00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,320
Speaker 1: hear enough. You know, if if you talk to fifty

73
00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,800
Speaker 1: people and they each told their story, I think each episode,

74
00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,160
Speaker 1: even if things were repetitive, people would get a lot

75
00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,000
Speaker 1: out of it because they just need to keep hearing

76
00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,320
Speaker 1: this is normal, this is normal, It's not just you. Yeah,

77
00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,400
Speaker 1: And you know what, what I'm really curious about is

78
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,560
Speaker 1: when you discovered that you had anxiety. And I have

79
00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,840
Speaker 1: my own experience with this because I think now in

80
00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,000
Speaker 1: the day and age we're in, especially with social media,

81
00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,680
Speaker 1: I see a lot of stuff that I think it's funny.

82
00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,880
Speaker 1: I think it's great. But you'll see a lot of

83
00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,760
Speaker 1: memes and stuff that just kind of like joke about anxiety,

84
00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,800
Speaker 1: you know, And I think some of it's okay, and

85
00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,160
Speaker 1: I laugh at some and I'll repost some of them.

86
00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,120
Speaker 1: And at the same time, there was one that came out,

87
00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:09,880
Speaker 1: but I don't know when it came out. I saw

88
00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,280
Speaker 1: it the other day and it was like something about

89
00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,080
Speaker 1: like I was at the doctor and my doctor asked,

90
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,279
Speaker 1: like if I had any feelings of depression anxiety, and

91
00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,599
Speaker 1: I responded, well, don't we all? And then the doctor

92
00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,839
Speaker 1: just said no, And well, I I like that because

93
00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,160
Speaker 1: I think that my story and I'm interested to hear

94
00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,080
Speaker 1: here is is I thought that everybody felt like I felt,

95
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,599
Speaker 1: and that like it was just how the human condition

96
00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:35,520
Speaker 1: was and there's nothing we can do about it. And

97
00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:40,760
Speaker 1: what that little picture reminded me of is that like, oh,

98
00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,440
Speaker 1: this might be like a normal thing, Like there's nothing

99
00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,080
Speaker 1: wrong with me per se, with my character or my

100
00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,560
Speaker 1: morality because I'm having these feelings. There's nothing to be

101
00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,440
Speaker 1: embarrassed about. But I also don't have to live this way,

102
00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,159
Speaker 1: so it's not just like a yeah, duh, it's like yes,

103
00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,119
Speaker 1: and I'm allowed to ask for help. Right. It's funny

104
00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:00,520
Speaker 1: because I do now. I just kind of go, oh,

105
00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,400
Speaker 1: it's a human condition. Everyone feels this way. But no,

106
00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,679
Speaker 1: obviously there's levels and there's actually, yes, there's total levels.

107
00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:07,880
Speaker 1: You know, people that need to get help and people

108
00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,120
Speaker 1: that are just going through a thing. So I want

109
00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:11,960
Speaker 1: to talk with you. I want to know about like

110
00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,880
Speaker 1: when you were like, wait, what what is this feeling

111
00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,160
Speaker 1: I'm having? Like I just want to hear from the

112
00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,240
Speaker 1: beginning your story. And I don't know a question to

113
00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,240
Speaker 1: start with that other than will you tell me your story? No,

114
00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,880
Speaker 1: I think it's good. It's not that I actually thought

115
00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,800
Speaker 1: everyone felt the same way I did at first, and

116
00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,320
Speaker 1: I certainly didn't think it was normal. But I didn't

117
00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,160
Speaker 1: go this as his anxiety. It's hard to remember. It's

118
00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,320
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, your story becomes almost like you're

119
00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,400
Speaker 1: telling a movie you saw. I can't it's so hard

120
00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:40,880
Speaker 1: to remember how I felt as a kid and I

121
00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,400
Speaker 1: and I actually should ask you this is I think

122
00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,520
Speaker 1: there's a correlation between memories getting jumbled and actually not

123
00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,000
Speaker 1: having a great memory and being a kid with undiagnosed anxiety. Yeah,

124
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,279
Speaker 1: like I don't have a ton of memories from my childhood.

125
00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:54,880
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much in that. But I think

126
00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,520
Speaker 1: sometimes our brains are really really awesome, and the fact

127
00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,440
Speaker 1: that they will remember things that we need to remember

128
00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,240
Speaker 1: and not remember are things we don't need or want

129
00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,760
Speaker 1: to remember, and sometimes that can be flip flop based

130
00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,200
Speaker 1: on our trauma or whatever that is. But I think

131
00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,000
Speaker 1: also with anxiety and a d h G I have.

132
00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,680
Speaker 1: I have a d D, so I forget where I

133
00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,359
Speaker 1: store my memories sometimes. Oh that's a good way putting.

134
00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,039
Speaker 1: I don't even know what that means. So I was

135
00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,440
Speaker 1: talking to a psychiatrist a couple I think it was.

136
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,320
Speaker 1: This is probably five years ago, and I was just

137
00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,960
Speaker 1: so frustrated because I'm like, I literally I'm paid to

138
00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,920
Speaker 1: remember people's stories, and of course I like write things

139
00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,440
Speaker 1: down and not everything is just in my head. But

140
00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,719
Speaker 1: I was I was frustrating because I was forgetting tons

141
00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,360
Speaker 1: of stuff and I was like, I, this is so

142
00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,200
Speaker 1: frustrating to me, and I stretched too thin, like what's

143
00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,839
Speaker 1: going on? And she was like, no, it's not that

144
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,479
Speaker 1: you are like forgetful or this, Like, yeah, I guess

145
00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,440
Speaker 1: it looks like that, but it's not like your brain

146
00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,360
Speaker 1: isn't working. You just are doing so many things at

147
00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,200
Speaker 1: once that you're forgetting where you're putting certain things. Oh

148
00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,320
Speaker 1: I love that, And it's like, okay, well, but can

149
00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 1: you tell me where to go to find out? You know,

150
00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:57,840
Speaker 1: how do I get them? Not like glasses that are

151
00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,880
Speaker 1: on your head that story, i'd say, I'd say my

152
00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,960
Speaker 1: story began when I was about eight in terms of anxiety. Now,

153
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:05,920
Speaker 1: of course, now that I've had like a million years

154
00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,440
Speaker 1: of therapy, and you start like I didn't start to

155
00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,040
Speaker 1: notice and tell us in my forties how my anxiety

156
00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,880
Speaker 1: affected behavior in relationships, no matter what kind, and my outlook.

157
00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,760
Speaker 1: So it was as multi later onion, I'm still peeling.

158
00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,400
Speaker 1: I think ten years ago I would have told you

159
00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,800
Speaker 1: about anxiety that only had to do with phobias and

160
00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,600
Speaker 1: you know, so I'm sure my anxiety began the minute

161
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,160
Speaker 1: I was I don't know, able to talk and walk

162
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,280
Speaker 1: because I was inheriting this stuff from like my parents

163
00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,040
Speaker 1: and you know, learning bad coping mechanisms and stuff like that.

164
00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:41,040
Speaker 1: But in terms of feeling anxious, just old school on

165
00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,800
Speaker 1: the verge of a panic attack. Anxious for me was

166
00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,840
Speaker 1: tied in with airplane travel. But I can guarantee you

167
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,360
Speaker 1: I had anxiety before that. When I was five, six seven,

168
00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,680
Speaker 1: I think I had disordered things, you know. So I'll

169
00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:56,720
Speaker 1: give you an example of what I think was anxiety

170
00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,760
Speaker 1: when I was five. So I'm going to kindergarten and

171
00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,000
Speaker 1: I'm one of those kids that's like clinging to their parents.

172
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,400
Speaker 1: I was so excited to go to school and be independent.

173
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,600
Speaker 1: And my sisters were older than me, so they were

174
00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,000
Speaker 1: like going off to college. You know. I was a

175
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,480
Speaker 1: lot younger and still the my sisters. Anyway, So I'm

176
00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,080
Speaker 1: at school and I guess I just never heard the

177
00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,480
Speaker 1: word parents before. It was either mom and dad or whatever.

178
00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,760
Speaker 1: And the teacher said something to me about take this

179
00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,720
Speaker 1: home and give it to your parents, and just in

180
00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,880
Speaker 1: that moment, a million things flooded my mind that were like,

181
00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,440
Speaker 1: I don't have parents, and so I said I don't

182
00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,040
Speaker 1: have parents, and I burst into tears because what I

183
00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:35,760
Speaker 1: wanted to say was I don't know what that word is.

184
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,560
Speaker 1: And I thought it was like something fancy, maybe like

185
00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:40,120
Speaker 1: just some like because as I grew up in a

186
00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,280
Speaker 1: really rich town and we weren't rich, it was like,

187
00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:44,960
Speaker 1: maybe that's like I don't know someone that takes care

188
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,160
Speaker 1: of you, like an O pay or not that I

189
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:47,920
Speaker 1: knew the world here, but you do know what I mean? Like,

190
00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,840
Speaker 1: if I had to guess why I had that reaction

191
00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,559
Speaker 1: is that in four seconds, something went through my head

192
00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,480
Speaker 1: that went, this is the thing other people have that

193
00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,520
Speaker 1: you don't. So now here I am I say, I

194
00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,640
Speaker 1: don't have parents. They don't know I don't know what

195
00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,120
Speaker 1: the word means. They think I'm like an orphan or something.

196
00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,040
Speaker 1: So then I'm crying, and then they take me to

197
00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,160
Speaker 1: the school nurse and it's this whole thing, and then

198
00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,120
Speaker 1: it's like, you do your mom dropped you off today?

199
00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,959
Speaker 1: She's lying and I'm like, what is parents? And they're like, well,

200
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:14,760
Speaker 1: they didn't say she you're lying, but they were trying

201
00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,640
Speaker 1: to figure out the wrong thing, which is why is

202
00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,640
Speaker 1: this girl pretending not to have parents instead of she

203
00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:21,800
Speaker 1: didn't know what the word parents is. But the issue

204
00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,600
Speaker 1: is why are you reacting like that? Like why not

205
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,160
Speaker 1: just go what parents you know and have them go, oh,

206
00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,080
Speaker 1: that means mom and dadd I go okay. For some reason,

207
00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,200
Speaker 1: I just had the most irrational reaction to not knowing

208
00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,359
Speaker 1: a word. Now, looking back on that memory, that behavior

209
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,440
Speaker 1: has followed me into my adult life at times. UM,

210
00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,920
Speaker 1: not that extreme, but that, to me is the first

211
00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,160
Speaker 1: anxiety story. But I didn't know what the hell that was.

212
00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:48,760
Speaker 1: I thought it was a funny story until like three

213
00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,120
Speaker 1: years ago, and I went, oh, my reactions have always

214
00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,720
Speaker 1: been a problem, which is when I realized I had adult,

215
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,080
Speaker 1: A d H D and all that. So again, like

216
00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 1: depending on when you asked me, as I'm learning more things,

217
00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,120
Speaker 1: that's the true beginning. Wow, Okay, So this is what

218
00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:05,760
Speaker 1: I wished as a therapist all the time, that I

219
00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:07,400
Speaker 1: could travel back in time and like talk to that

220
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,600
Speaker 1: five year old, because there's something in the fact that,

221
00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,720
Speaker 1: like it wasn't an automatic reaction to say, like I

222
00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,360
Speaker 1: can just ask a question when I am confused, I

223
00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,800
Speaker 1: can just ask for clarification. Like I wonder what it

224
00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,640
Speaker 1: was that kept you from either knowing that you're supposed

225
00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:23,640
Speaker 1: to ask what is a parent because you didn't know

226
00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,120
Speaker 1: what it was. I think you're almost too deep on

227
00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,640
Speaker 1: this one. But you're right, it wasn't like from an

228
00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:30,680
Speaker 1: overall place because I didn't do that any other I

229
00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,200
Speaker 1: bet five times that they asked no answers. It was

230
00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,840
Speaker 1: tied up. I think in this stuff that I had

231
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,680
Speaker 1: already absorbed by age five, which is we lived in

232
00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,400
Speaker 1: a very wealthy town, but my dad had a working

233
00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,160
Speaker 1: class job as the groundskeeper of a golf course, and

234
00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,440
Speaker 1: so the house came with the job. Otherwise they wouldn't

235
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,280
Speaker 1: have been able to afford to live in that town.

236
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,760
Speaker 1: So I had heard unconscious or conscious messages. Were not

237
00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,199
Speaker 1: as wealthy as other people. Other people are snobs, other

238
00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,560
Speaker 1: people have things like it was money and that was

239
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,640
Speaker 1: a big So it was like this thing I don't

240
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,200
Speaker 1: I literally don't don't think I have this thing called

241
00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,880
Speaker 1: a parent. Yeah. And it was like if my parents

242
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,360
Speaker 1: had And again I'm not blaming them, I'm just saying

243
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,000
Speaker 1: like if they had a different obsession about ice skating, whatever,

244
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:13,920
Speaker 1: it would have come out over there. But I think

245
00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,640
Speaker 1: just because I went to school, I saw these like

246
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,760
Speaker 1: I saw fan like somewhere in the back of my head,

247
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,760
Speaker 1: I saw fancy cars. I saw kids with fancy clothes,

248
00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,120
Speaker 1: you know, that kind of thing. Not that it wasn't

249
00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,360
Speaker 1: like we didn't have nice things, but it was just

250
00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,640
Speaker 1: because again because it was like we really were just

251
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,600
Speaker 1: middle class, you know what I mean. But like in

252
00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,000
Speaker 1: the story of the drama of how like my parents

253
00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,320
Speaker 1: were obsessed with like, you know, we don't have as

254
00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,520
Speaker 1: much as others. Like in my head, it's like I

255
00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,960
Speaker 1: don't have this thing that is a parent. I don't

256
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,120
Speaker 1: have this thing. Yeah. And so anyway, but I think

257
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,439
Speaker 1: it really just truly had to do with I thought

258
00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,360
Speaker 1: it was something to do with Oh, that was the

259
00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,200
Speaker 1: other thing too. Sorry, I didn't go to nursery school.

260
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,360
Speaker 1: My mom didn't want me to go to nursery school,

261
00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,360
Speaker 1: which I'm so grateful she didn't. I grew up in Massachusetts,

262
00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,920
Speaker 1: in a suburb like twenty five minutes outside of Boston.

263
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,160
Speaker 1: We'd go into the city and see theater, and my

264
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,679
Speaker 1: parents were very hands on and learning, and we just

265
00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,880
Speaker 1: had a ton of life experiences and I'm just glad

266
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:08,480
Speaker 1: I didn't go to preschool. It was just not really

267
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,440
Speaker 1: a big thing in the seventies. But it was like,

268
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,480
Speaker 1: I think all this was coming at me, you know,

269
00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,360
Speaker 1: in kindergarten, like some people were talking about how they've

270
00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,160
Speaker 1: gone to preschool and then there's this rich kid and

271
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,560
Speaker 1: then someone says, give this to your parents, and just something.

272
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,720
Speaker 1: I was already on that track of I'm different or whatever.

273
00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,480
Speaker 1: I think that's what it is. That's my analysis, because

274
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,199
Speaker 1: it never again did I have any issue like with

275
00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,880
Speaker 1: asking questions or not knowing things. It was just I

276
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:35,520
Speaker 1: don't know, or maybe a mood I was in, but

277
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,840
Speaker 1: I feel like that was like a hundred percent anxiety

278
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,240
Speaker 1: just you know, handed to me whatever. Yeah, and you

279
00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,520
Speaker 1: know what that makes me think of there's something and

280
00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,679
Speaker 1: I want to push people back to listening to anxiety bites.

281
00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,240
Speaker 1: But there's something that I really appreciated you asking in

282
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,800
Speaker 1: that episode you asked the first episode you asked some

283
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:54,520
Speaker 1: people along the lines of like, when it comes to

284
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,800
Speaker 1: therapy and anxiety, is there something we should be looking for?

285
00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:00,960
Speaker 1: Um when it comes to like who who we go to?

286
00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:02,520
Speaker 1: You were talking about how you had a therapist that

287
00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,040
Speaker 1: was like, let's go back and dig into your childhood

288
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,880
Speaker 1: and you're like totally, but also like, can I have

289
00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,400
Speaker 1: some skills? Yeah, if I'm having panic attacks at work

290
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,559
Speaker 1: every day, like I don't have time to go in

291
00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,400
Speaker 1: And I will say I love that so much because

292
00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,600
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we do do this thing where we

293
00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,520
Speaker 1: like want to dissect everything from the very bottom up,

294
00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,080
Speaker 1: and sometimes we need to start at the top and

295
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,800
Speaker 1: then if we have time and space, then we'll go back.

296
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,319
Speaker 1: But sometimes it is about containment and like, not everything

297
00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,480
Speaker 1: has to do with your mom and your dad, Like

298
00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:38,679
Speaker 1: not everything does. A lot of stuff does. I will

299
00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,160
Speaker 1: say a lot of stuff does. But sometimes anxiety is

300
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,720
Speaker 1: separate from this thing childhood trauma and all that. And

301
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,960
Speaker 1: that's something that I think has been kind of frustrating

302
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,120
Speaker 1: for me seeing on social media is that you'll have

303
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,200
Speaker 1: these like TikTok's that you'll see or Instagram whatever that

304
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,680
Speaker 1: you'll see and I'll be like, if this, this, this,

305
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,680
Speaker 1: and this happened, that means that this happened, and that

306
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:02,839
Speaker 1: means your parents did this, and that means you need this.

307
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,800
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't think it's always that way, No,

308
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,440
Speaker 1: And whenever I bring up my parents, like my God,

309
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,000
Speaker 1: I have the most compassion for them. If if they've

310
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,120
Speaker 1: handed me any life skills that were based in anxiety,

311
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,200
Speaker 1: they they have known their parents that grew up in

312
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,280
Speaker 1: the you know, early nine hundreds, you know, like and

313
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,240
Speaker 1: did them and uh but yeah. So the first time

314
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,720
Speaker 1: I think was I was eight years old and I

315
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:27,400
Speaker 1: had asked my parents if we could go to Disney

316
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,880
Speaker 1: World and they said yes, and we were going to

317
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,840
Speaker 1: fly there. And I don't remember having a fear of flying.

318
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,160
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, you never have flown before. I

319
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,240
Speaker 1: think it was all just excitement and excitement, and I

320
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,760
Speaker 1: just we got on the plane and that was it.

321
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,200
Speaker 1: I was freaking out and and it was a full

322
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,760
Speaker 1: blown panic attack and it felt like it lasted the

323
00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,400
Speaker 1: whole flight. Now was interesting that my dad, this is

324
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,320
Speaker 1: way back in the day that we got on the

325
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 1: plane and my dad was so excited. You know, you

326
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,680
Speaker 1: get on the plane back that and you can say

327
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,960
Speaker 1: the pilot, can my daughter just go in the cockpit? Oh, shure,

328
00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:58,840
Speaker 1: come on in? And you know, we looked at all

329
00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:03,960
Speaker 1: the buttons and I just f we're feeling that flooded, sweating, overwhelmed,

330
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,880
Speaker 1: like there's too many buttons. What's going on? Oh my god?

331
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,360
Speaker 1: And then we sat down and you know, there's two

332
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,440
Speaker 1: stories here. There's one I learned it from my parents,

333
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,120
Speaker 1: and there's two that I just was gonna panic, like

334
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,000
Speaker 1: my grandmother and mom did a panic disorder. They will

335
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,080
Speaker 1: never use those words, but I know it. You know,

336
00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,560
Speaker 1: my mom and or Rosary beads out. My dad kept

337
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,040
Speaker 1: going here we go, here we go. I think he

338
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,600
Speaker 1: was nervous but acting excited. I think they each only

339
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,600
Speaker 1: flown once. But it was also kind of like a

340
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,880
Speaker 1: bad flight. I mean, that's the point. We weren't crashing

341
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,880
Speaker 1: by any means. But again, for some reason, the pilot

342
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:37,600
Speaker 1: was like, this is gonna be a really rough landing,

343
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,760
Speaker 1: so everyone should put their head in their lap. So

344
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I was nervous before then, but I think

345
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,800
Speaker 1: that didn't help. But again, I can't remember which came first, okay,

346
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,080
Speaker 1: And I almost sometimes don't know if that's the most

347
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,800
Speaker 1: important part, because I'm sitting here being like, even if

348
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,920
Speaker 1: you weren't panicked, you would be now like this is

349
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,640
Speaker 1: my only experience of a flight, and this is what's happening.

350
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,960
Speaker 1: And also I think let's just like go, like forget

351
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,800
Speaker 1: my parents and that my mom had a rosemary beats out. Again,

352
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,640
Speaker 1: I'm feeling a sensation that I've never felt before, where

353
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,760
Speaker 1: this thing when that is taxing really fast, I forget

354
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,080
Speaker 1: now that that took my breath away and and I

355
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,760
Speaker 1: was little, you know, and I think it was just

356
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,400
Speaker 1: sensations I've never felt. I couldn't speak. I was like

357
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,160
Speaker 1: it was horrifying, and then my ears were popping really badly,

358
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,760
Speaker 1: which didn't make me anxious, but it just everything was like, oh,

359
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:38,040
Speaker 1: this is and strange and unknown. And also like again,

360
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,560
Speaker 1: back then, everyone you know, dressed up a little more.

361
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,160
Speaker 1: On planes you could smoke cigarettes, and so I'm looking

362
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,840
Speaker 1: at people in certain areas of the plane that are

363
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,000
Speaker 1: like smoking a cigarette and having a drink, and they

364
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,920
Speaker 1: looked like their feathered hair of the eighties is so fabulous.

365
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,680
Speaker 1: And that didn't help either, because that made me go,

366
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,360
Speaker 1: why am I the only one that feels this way?

367
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,200
Speaker 1: You know, why is everyone being normal? Like I ship

368
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,360
Speaker 1: had inspired me, but it didn't. And then I spent

369
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 1: the whole trip at Disney just dreading the flight back.

370
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,199
Speaker 1: You know, I wasn't talking to my parents about this.

371
00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,840
Speaker 1: I would say I'm scared of flying back, and my

372
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,240
Speaker 1: dad would probably say something like, oh, I don't even

373
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,560
Speaker 1: think about it. Let's enjoy ourselves while we're here. And

374
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,560
Speaker 1: so I was like busy that week thinking thoughts. That

375
00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:25,320
Speaker 1: became my tool kit for panic attacks, like obsessing blah blah,

376
00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,200
Speaker 1: and so then it started to become my identity. I'm

377
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,360
Speaker 1: afraid of flying. I didn't feel ashamed to talk about.

378
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,560
Speaker 1: I told anyone I knew, and so before every flight,

379
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,320
Speaker 1: especially as I got older, closer to teenage years again,

380
00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,800
Speaker 1: we go to Disney World every even until I was

381
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,720
Speaker 1: like thirteen. It became I write a will before I

382
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:43,600
Speaker 1: go on the plane, and I give it to my friends,

383
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,080
Speaker 1: and like, you know what, I don't know what. I

384
00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,200
Speaker 1: was giving away my classic goom box, but it became

385
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,760
Speaker 1: this thing where I really thought I was doing something dangerous.

386
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,320
Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't just the uncomfortablelity if I really

387
00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,960
Speaker 1: think I thought flying was dangerous and that you could

388
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,280
Speaker 1: die and that you could crash. And nowadays, and when

389
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,240
Speaker 1: I had a fear flying a little later in life,

390
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,600
Speaker 1: it eventually became like I realized it wasn't about a

391
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,919
Speaker 1: fear of crashing, but you know so, and then by

392
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,439
Speaker 1: age fourteen, I said, I can't do this anymore, Like

393
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,040
Speaker 1: I just it's not worth it. God, we can't fly.

394
00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,239
Speaker 1: So I never flew again for a while, and I

395
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,520
Speaker 1: think I had more depression during my teen years. But

396
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,960
Speaker 1: oh I'm forgetting one of the other bigger things that happened.

397
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,160
Speaker 1: So that was the flight when I was eight. Now,

398
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,680
Speaker 1: one or two years later, we're talking cold war with Russia.

399
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,919
Speaker 1: Everything is like nuclear bombs talked all over the news,

400
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,440
Speaker 1: and my parents they don't really shield things from me. Again,

401
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,480
Speaker 1: I'm not blaming them. I'm just saying like they would

402
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,040
Speaker 1: just talk about so like, you know, oh yeah, we

403
00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,119
Speaker 1: did air rade. I mean, I think it was just

404
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 1: sort of we didn't live in a fantasy world, you know,

405
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,880
Speaker 1: like if the news was on I saw what was happening,

406
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,000
Speaker 1: and there was just a lot of talk about that

407
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,600
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, and I I watched that made for

408
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:58,400
Speaker 1: TV movie the day after. I don't know if you've

409
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,760
Speaker 1: heard of it came on the eight. It was literally

410
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 1: a movie about what if Russia nuked America. I actually

411
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,440
Speaker 1: was obsessed with this movie and I ended up doing

412
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,240
Speaker 1: like a one woman show it's a comedy thing years ago.

413
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,160
Speaker 1: But in my research about the movie, it was said

414
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 1: that Ronald Reagan watched it and it scared him enough

415
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,320
Speaker 1: to I don't know why he wasn't working on this before,

416
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,200
Speaker 1: but like it scared him enough into wanting to um

417
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,199
Speaker 1: really make peace with the USSR. But anyway, it was,

418
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,080
Speaker 1: it was terrifying. So basically one of the scenes in

419
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,840
Speaker 1: the movie was the bombs are coming and everyone can

420
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,480
Speaker 1: see them and they're all on the freeway trying to

421
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,480
Speaker 1: get out, but it's just the cars are just like

422
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,200
Speaker 1: a parking lot. No one can leave town, and then boom,

423
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,359
Speaker 1: the bomb hits and everyone turns into a skeleton in

424
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,480
Speaker 1: their car and you can hear the air raid signals,

425
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,199
Speaker 1: you know, And so that like lived in me. So

426
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,000
Speaker 1: every time we'd go visit my grandmother and we'd be

427
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,239
Speaker 1: on the freeway. I would think, you know, what if

428
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:50,919
Speaker 1: we get nuke right now? Everything was like what if?

429
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 1: Right now? What if? This? And so I started to

430
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,439
Speaker 1: develop more physical symptoms that weren't the same as the

431
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,879
Speaker 1: airplane symptoms. It was more heart skipping a beat and

432
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 1: pain in my arm. And you know, my mom and

433
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 1: grandmother had high blood pressure. And my grandmother who lived

434
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,480
Speaker 1: until ninety nine and my mom is now currently eighty three,

435
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,439
Speaker 1: they both claim they have heart problems. I'm no doctor,

436
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,760
Speaker 1: but you know, my nana didn't die. She just because

437
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,439
Speaker 1: she was ninety, not like they were obsessed with their hearts.

438
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,639
Speaker 1: So I went and got a stress test at the

439
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,399
Speaker 1: local hospital because I was having like heart pain or whatever.

440
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,400
Speaker 1: Old are you twelve? So this is like a feyears

441
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,480
Speaker 1: after the fear flying. Now we're into the like having

442
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,080
Speaker 1: panic attacks on the freeway. Like field trips at school

443
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 1: were really difficult for me because I didn't like being

444
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,560
Speaker 1: on the freeway. Usually the bus would take a you know,

445
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 1: and yeah, and so my mom took me like normalized it,

446
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,959
Speaker 1: but normalized it, like oh yeah, this runs in our family,

447
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,480
Speaker 1: you know, like but didn't call it anxiety and the

448
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,440
Speaker 1: doctor was like, oh, yeah, you're stressed, which I thought

449
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,479
Speaker 1: was like a badge of honor, like cool, I'm stressed.

450
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,400
Speaker 1: I thought that was very adult. But he was like, oh,

451
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 1: also you have I don't know what he said. It

452
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 1: was like he's like, you're fine. Though You're fine is distressed,

453
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,639
Speaker 1: but you your arm aching is separate. It's sometimes it

454
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,640
Speaker 1: gets too cold. It's like a muscle thing or something.

455
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 1: I was like, all right, anyway, but it's like, at

456
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 1: the same time I had all this anxiety, I was

457
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 1: the other side of it was those feelings were so

458
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 1: intolerable that every other second of my life had to

459
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,440
Speaker 1: be a ball. Does that make sense? So I had

460
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,720
Speaker 1: a lot of joy and friends and make believe in

461
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 1: fun and I took dance and I was outrageous and

462
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 1: fun and silly. I mean, you wouldn't have known I

463
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 1: had anxiety. But it was like, if I'm going to

464
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 1: live through these intolerable moments sometimes then I lived each

465
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,120
Speaker 1: day as if it were my last, because I really

466
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 1: thought those those feelings of impending death were so intense

467
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,439
Speaker 1: that it almost pushed me into this really gregarious way

468
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 1: of living, which then by the time I was in

469
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,800
Speaker 1: my late teens and went off to college. And I

470
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 1: only went to college like in the city of Boston,

471
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,399
Speaker 1: so it was no planes involved. There was like a

472
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,640
Speaker 1: program you could go to Amsterdam. It didn't cost any

473
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,439
Speaker 1: more than your tuition already did. And I didn't go,

474
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 1: and you know, and then at that point it's like,

475
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 1: I don't know where these bad habits came from, but

476
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 1: I had all these bad habits of coke being with

477
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,399
Speaker 1: panic attacks that I started having pretty regularly, like almost

478
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 1: every day at this point, all through high school. But

479
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 1: I never told anyone because they were so it was

480
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 1: once it stopped being on a plane, which made sense

481
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,919
Speaker 1: to me and everyone else who I told, and it

482
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 1: just became I'm sitting in the middle of French class

483
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: and I am having a panic attack because the teacher

484
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 1: said something like anytime someone talked about something I don't

485
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 1: know how to put it, like if he said something

486
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: about the fifteen hundreds, it would just spark something like,

487
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 1: oh my god, the world is so big and life's

488
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: been around for everyone going to die, you know, existential

489
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,159
Speaker 1: crisis kind of thing. Yes, anytime someone said something that

490
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 1: could spark an existential crisis, which always happened in French

491
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 1: class I would have, and you know, sometimes my teachers thought,

492
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 1: are I was on drugs, which is hilarious because I wasn't,

493
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 1: And I just have to run out of the room,

494
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,639
Speaker 1: you know, and well can you talk about because I

495
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 1: think a lot of people don't even know what a

496
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 1: panic attack can look and feel like? So for you,

497
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,400
Speaker 1: what did that look and feel? Like? Mine felt like

498
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: I get a thought, then my breath starts doing something,

499
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 1: and then my mind is racing a million miles a minute.

500
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: So it always started with I feel like I can't

501
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: get a deep breath, I can't breathe, and then like

502
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,479
Speaker 1: the butterflies would happen in my chest where it actually

503
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 1: felt like it was constricting, and like oh wow, like

504
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: I actually might be able, I might stop breathing. Maybe

505
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,360
Speaker 1: his palm sweating, But for me, it was always breath related,

506
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: and then just my mind would start racing to where

507
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 1: it would always go to a very existential place of

508
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: crazy thoughts, like almost like my brain was screwing with me,

509
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 1: like what if gravity stops affecting you when you fly away?

510
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 1: Right now? The stuff like that, I've since learned it

511
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,640
Speaker 1: was called feelings of unreality, where like you don't feel

512
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: like you're fainting. You just feel like you're not there,

513
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: like your ghost or something. So that's how it felt.

514
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: And I it just I could not ground myself. I

515
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 1: could not get it to stop, and I couldn't stop

516
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,719
Speaker 1: my mind from freaking myself out. And I think the

517
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: important part to pay attention to there is you're literally

518
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,439
Speaker 1: having a physical sensation that's tapped into your mine. But

519
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: like it sounds like it would come on fast, which

520
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: they do normally do like all the sudden this is happening.

521
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 1: I don't know how to get it to stop. And

522
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: I like you saying like I would run out of

523
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,360
Speaker 1: the class, Like sometimes it's like I need to run

524
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: away to get out of this. But then like I

525
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,360
Speaker 1: don't know if the panic attack follows you. But it's

526
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 1: like so uncomfortable. It's not just like, oh I'm getting

527
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: a little bit nervous. No, it wasn't nerves at all,

528
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: you know. And of course the weird part is like

529
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: I had my safe spaces that would be anxiety and

530
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 1: producing for anyone else, Like I danced and I was

531
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 1: on stage a lot, and you know, those are all

532
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 1: my safe places. And but yeah, I mean I think

533
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: running out of the room is like, now I've learned

534
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 1: the correct thing to do is breathe properly, ground yourself

535
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: obviously stopped thinking those thoughts that freak you out. So

536
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: when I would run out of the room, interestingly enough,

537
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: my brain would say you're safe now. So I think

538
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 1: that helped a lot too. Obviously you can't run out

539
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: of a room on a plane. So but then that

540
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,679
Speaker 1: thing happens where you have one in one room, and

541
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 1: now you're gonna learn that it's going to happen again

542
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,160
Speaker 1: in that room, and it starts to so there became

543
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,239
Speaker 1: you're having them every day, oh, multiple times a day,

544
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: every day, undiagnosed and not telling anyone for so what

545
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 1: was happening? Did you just think you're crazy? I thought

546
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: I was insane, Yeah, And I didn't know what to

547
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 1: do because there was no internet. And I remember my

548
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: my friend Dave came out of the closet to me.

549
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 1: I I came out of the anxiety closet to him.

550
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, well I have a secret. I

551
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: have these, you know, And I think we went to

552
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 1: the library in this very dramatic fashion and somehow found

553
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: books about the brain. I can't remember exactly what led

554
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: us to these shelves, but it was bottom line, I

555
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: learned the word panic, And what did that feel like

556
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: to learn that word? It didn't help that I just said, Okay,

557
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 1: so I know what this is. So it's gonna get

558
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: so bad that I'm gonna have to live in an institutions.

559
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: And that's what I thought. I'm just I'm just waiting

560
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: for to get bad enough that they have to make

561
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: me live somewhere. Now, this is a word. It's in

562
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: this book. I have this, and if anybody finds out,

563
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to go live in like an asylum.

564
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,199
Speaker 1: An asylum. Yeah, And I thought, you know, I'll have

565
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,479
Speaker 1: to wait until I'm feeling this way every second. Then

566
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: I'll be ready to live in an asylum. But I

567
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: still have some good living in me. It's not happening,

568
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 1: you know, all day, every day. So back then it

569
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 1: was like normal or crazy, no in between, you know,

570
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 1: I mean, not that I should even use the word crazy,

571
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 1: but you know what I'm saying. There was no no

572
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: I know what you're saying. Yeah, for sure, there wasn't

573
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 1: an in between. There was no normalization of people struggling

574
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 1: with mental health. Disorders. It was if you have some

575
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: kind of mental health anything, you are like cucko, and

576
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 1: we're going to lock you up because there's no helping you. Yeah. Yeah.

577
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,199
Speaker 1: And I didn't even think to tell my parents about, Like,

578
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: I didn't even think to tell anyone. And then kind

579
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: of a miraculous ish thing happened where I was living

580
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: at home during the summer's to work and save money again,

581
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: I was, you know, only twenty minutes out of the city,

582
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: and my mom told me about this fear of Flying

583
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: course that was being taught at the Logan Airport in Boston,

584
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: taught by a psychiatrist, and we didn't talk about psychiatry

585
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: and our family. I like don't even remember how this

586
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: whole conversation came about. It's like in my memory, it's

587
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: like there's the newspaper and she pointed to something and

588
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: we did it. But back then again, the panic was

589
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 1: so bad. The class was in the airport, and it

590
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: was in a lounge at Delta Airlines, and you were

591
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: sitting in front of the window with the plane right out.

592
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously was exposure therapy, but I couldn't do it.

593
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: I couldn't handle the sensations I couldn't drive on the

594
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: freeway either, so my dad would drive me to class

595
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: every Tuesday night. So you took this class. Yeah, and

596
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: my doctor gave him special permission to sit with us.

597
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: And I loved the class so much. I loved the psychiatrist.

598
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: And I always tell the story of like, he's what

599
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 1: kind of is in my head when I want to

600
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: help other people? This is again you could smoke inside

601
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: back then he was smoked cigarettes and drink coffee. He

602
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: gave us a multi tiered approach to panic. We did

603
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: progressive muscle relaxation, thoughts, stopping. But he also said diet.

604
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: Diet is important, so on the day of the flight,

605
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: don't smoke, don't drink coffee, anything to keep your nervous system.

606
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: But he's saying it while drinking coffee and smoking. And

607
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,959
Speaker 1: his name was dr Al forgone, he's now dead. And

608
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: this woman goes dr l I um Fulcome, you can

609
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: smoke and drink. He's like, I'm not the one I

610
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: was afraid. He was very irreverent. But what was interesting

611
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 1: is I was the only young person in the class.

612
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: Everyone was forty and over and it was something they

613
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: had just recently developed. A lot of it had to

614
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: do with like, I don't know, like I don't know,

615
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: Like a lot of them had flown a lot and

616
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: they just had a bad flight and got a fear

617
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: or never had really flown, but now they have to

618
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: because their kids are grown up and moved away. Any who.

619
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: Bottom line is we do twelve weeks of the class

620
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: and every night I have to go home and do

621
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: progressive muscle relaxation. I loved doing that and I got

622
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: to see other people what they look like when they're anxious,

623
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,479
Speaker 1: and and it wasn't it was just interesting. I have

624
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: no other comment on it. But we did a graduation

625
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: flight from Boston to New York and back, and it

626
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: didn't work for me. We used to rate our anxieties

627
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: zero to ten, and I was still at a ten.

628
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: Like every time we had to rate, I would get

629
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: down lower. But then once we got on the plane,

630
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: I was like ten and everyone was like zero on

631
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: you'r dr L I love you, and like everyone's having

632
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: the best time on the plane and I'm white knuckling

633
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: and I'm like grabbing his arm and he's like Jen

634
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: and I'm like and he basically told me when we landed,

635
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: he said you know, I don't think you just have

636
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: a fear flying. I think you have an anxiety disorder.

637
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh and and by this point,

638
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: like I wasn't just scared. I was I think I

639
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: was twenty. I had a lot of panic attacks in college,

640
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: Like I was an acting major, and a lot of

641
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: that was laying on the floor and doing deep breathing.

642
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: And again it was an existential thing where we lay

643
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: on the floor and do deep breathing, but it was

644
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: in this like tenth floor of a building, and the

645
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: teacher would open the windows and tell us to look

646
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: into the sky and imagine the sky. And I didn't, well,

647
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: wait a second, I'm having a thought. I just want

648
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: to run this by you. So you have this like

649
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: what you think it's fear of flying. And then and

650
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: at the same time, you're an acting major and you

651
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: said before like you to dance and stuff. So you're

652
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: on stage and you're in front of people, and you're

653
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: doing things that like I want to say this subjective,

654
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: but like a somewhat objectively the things that you're doing

655
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: are kind of scary for a lot of people. But

656
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: those things weren't scary. So I wanted to separate for

657
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: a second. There is a difference between like being fearful

658
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: and having an anxiety disorder. They are not one and

659
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: the same. So we're like a lot of people are

660
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: in that flying class because they have this just straight

661
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: up baseline fear of flying. Some might put anxiety in

662
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: that category somewhere, But you have a panic and anxiety

663
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: disorder because it's not like you were just this fearful

664
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: person who was scared of scary things because you could

665
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: do these things that would put a lot of people.

666
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: If you ask me to get on a stage and

667
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: dance or do something like that when I was younger,

668
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: no way I I would have been having my own

669
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: fear response because that's scary, but that also was fun

670
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: for you. So that makes total sense. Yeah, I probably

671
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: didn't even really have a fear flying. It was that

672
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: my panic disorder was really aggravated by being on a

673
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: plane and I didn't want to experience it manifest in

674
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,479
Speaker 1: this like this unknown of something. And there's probably more

675
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: to unpack in there, but I just I think that

676
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: anxiety can be a fancy word for fear, yes, And

677
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: I think sometimes it's not just that you're scared, it's

678
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: that you have an anxiety disorder, so it might not

679
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: be anything about this thing. So we're doing all this

680
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: work of like what is it about the plane? And

681
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: then this and then that, and then it's like, wait

682
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: a second, this is like a bigger issue. Yeah. And

683
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: you know it's funny too, because when I was twelve,

684
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: my grandfather died and we weren't closer anything. Was the

685
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: first death in my family. And I just read this

686
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: book Anxiety The Missing Stage of Grief by this woman

687
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: clear bit Wall Smith, and I interviewed her for my

688
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: podcasting Anxiety Bites. It will come out in a few months,

689
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of stuff in the book that's about,

690
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: you know, like death causes anxiety obviously, the real I mean,

691
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: when someone dies, it causes us anxiety. And I think

692
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: I had just like a real, existential, massive fear of

693
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: death and that that's when all my panic attacks became,

694
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: not just about the plane. It was like the nuclear war.

695
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: My grandfather died, I felt like I'd been cooled, like

696
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: here I was on Earth, pretty good life, and then

697
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: I'm like, wait, we die, you know, I just like

698
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: it all hit me, like what the hell is this

699
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: all about? You know? And I think I was just

700
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: so afraid. And that to me is I don't know,

701
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: like who knows where anxiety disorders begin or end? But

702
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: I was really affected by certain things. But yeah, so

703
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: that fear flying course, when he said that, I went,

704
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: that makes sense. And then you know, I went to

705
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,479
Speaker 1: like a couple of therapists at school that were terrible

706
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: and I don't even know what. But then I just

707
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: I don't even again, how could I remember this? It

708
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: was so long ago. I found someone and I started

709
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: going after I graduated college, and I think she was

710
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: like ten dollars sliding scale or something. Yeah, and I

711
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: told her about my panic and she, you know, said

712
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: all the things that you know, everyone says that it's

713
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: just over adrenaline and some reaction. And she taught me

714
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: some techniques of like staying in the moment, and it

715
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: really helped. Like I was able to ride the subway again,

716
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: and and and I moved to New York like a

717
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: year later. And sorry, that's what I mean by read

718
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: the subway. I I moved to New York, and I

719
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: was able to read the subway using some of the

720
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: techniques she taught me. I still sometimes had panic attacks

721
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: and had to run off. I one time asked a

722
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: cough if you could drive me back to Brooklyn. He

723
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: said no, No, I mean I was in the Times

724
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: Square area, and like who runs off the subway in

725
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: Times Square and serving a panic attack? Like a couple

726
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: more stocks. So you know, it was like I had

727
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: no chill still when it came to having a panic attack,

728
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: I still didn't have the tools to talk myself down

729
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: in it. I would still just kind of white knucklet

730
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: till it was over. At least I knew what it

731
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: was after it happened, and I was doing a lot

732
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: of prep so that I wouldn't have them. In general,

733
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: I'm curious to like, what gave you the like okay,

734
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: to like I'm going to tell somebody, like even if

735
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: it's a therapist, that these things are happening, because before

736
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: it was like, well if I tell somebody, I'm going

737
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: to be locked up. I think it was because it

738
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: started with that fear flying that my parents knew I had,

739
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 1: and going to that class and just sort of I

740
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: don't know, it just sort of all made sense in

741
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: my head that I don't know, I just sort of

742
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: knew in my gut that it was okay. And when

743
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: he said you have an anxiety disorder, he didn't say

744
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: it like and I'm so worried. He was just like, yeah,

745
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 1: you should just go to therapy for this, like in general,

746
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: and it doesn't have to be about planes. And I

747
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: was like all right, And if an authority figure told

748
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: me something, I was like, well that then that's that,

749
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 1: for for better or for worse. And in this case,

750
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: I was like great, and it didn't scare me. It

751
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: must have just known in that moment, Okay, this is well.

752
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: He wasn't like you have an anxiety to sort of

753
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 1: time to take you away. He was like, you should

754
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 1: go to therapy. Well you know what he said, which

755
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: I really appreciated that. I didn't actually appreciate it until

756
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: much later in life, as he said, you're the youngest

757
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: one here, like I told you before, and he said

758
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: this is the time of your life. He basically presented

759
00:34:58,440 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 1: it like you want to get rid of this ans

760
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: I need so that you can go have some fun.

761
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: And since I did enjoy having fun, that connected with me,

762
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: which is like, oh, yeah, that's right. You know. It's

763
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: to live your life. It's not because something's wrong and

764
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: I don't know, it just all sort of you deserve it,

765
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: you deserve to go get some help. And it took

766
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: a long time. I mean I got help for like

767
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: one tiny thing in a time, and then you don't

768
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: realize it's connected to that, and blah blah blah. And

769
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 1: I mean I still was a complete reactionary, spastic person

770
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 1: for like a good fifteen years after that, you know,

771
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: and just but it was like it was livable. But

772
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: I still every instinct was to keep my life small,

773
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 1: keep it small. And then it was like, you know,

774
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a comedian. I wanted to be

775
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: an actor. I didn't know what this like. If I

776
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: saw comedians on like The Tonight Show, I didn't know

777
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: that they did gigs where they had to travel. I

778
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: didn't know any of that. So when I started doing

779
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: stand up, my goal was not to go touring, like,

780
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: not at all. I just wanted to be on TV.

781
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,919
Speaker 1: So then like as I started doing stand up around

782
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: New York or on l A getting more popular, blah blah,

783
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: it just happens that you have to start touring and

784
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: make a living, and so I would still, you know,

785
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: I moved to l A, but I took a train

786
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 1: to move here from the East coast because it was

787
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 1: after nine eleven. And that was like, I mean talk

788
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: about like validating the worst fear I'd had. I was

789
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: it didn't make me afraid to fly because I thought

790
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: that was going to happen again. I just said, I'm

791
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 1: gonna be thinking about I'm gonna have a panic attack

792
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: on the plane. I don't want to do that. So

793
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: but you know, I I moved to l A and

794
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: and eventually other comedians would say, oh, do you want

795
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,240
Speaker 1: to come be my opening act? And I would start

796
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: if someone said, you know, be my opening act in

797
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 1: Philadelphia in a month, I would book a flight and

798
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: then claim I had a weird feeling about it, and

799
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: then try to call and rebook it and and oh,

800
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: well that's gonna cost money. Screw it, just put on

801
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: my credit card. So it's like the anxiety leads to

802
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: like stupid crap, like longer term like getting into a

803
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: debt on a credit card, you know, like that just

804
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 1: because you keep changing a flighter. I would call people

805
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: and be like, do you think it's gonna be okay?

806
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: I mean, but what about this? And eventually, do you

807
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: know that book about quitting smoking the Easy Way to

808
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 1: Quit smoking. But Alan carr uh, it's like a book

809
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: a lot of smokers have read and everyone claims they

810
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: just quit right away. It's it's pretty good. I don't

811
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: know how he does this, but he wrote one about flying,

812
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: The Easy Way to Enjoy Flying, and he said something

813
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 1: that really connected. That was like, unless you're walking around

814
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: afraid planes are falling on your head, you don't have

815
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: a fear of flying. If you're not calling your family

816
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 1: when they're getting on a plane and crying and saying

817
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 1: you're gonna die, then you don't actually think planes are

818
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: scary and bad. You don't like just grow up and

819
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: admit it. This is a control issue. And that high

820
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: a second. That's good. It's so good. That's because that's

821
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: so true. If you're really that afraid, you think that

822
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: all these planes are just like crashing all over the place,

823
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: and you wouldn't want anybody that you love to get

824
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: on a plane. Yeah, you'd be like chicken little like no, no,

825
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: you know. And and it was just like that helped. Now,

826
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: didn't do anything to stop the panic attack. No, but

827
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: blah blah, cut to I just get more well known,

828
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: I start touring and truly like, that's the thing is

829
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 1: I loved traveling. I mean that was where this all began.

830
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: Is my instinct as a little kid was can we

831
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: go there? And that was always my favorite part of

832
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: Disney World and Epcot Center was like the fake pavilions

833
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: of all the different countries. And I had such a

834
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: spirit of adventure that was just completely destroyed by anxiety.

835
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 1: And by the time I was in my late thirties,

836
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 1: I finally got to fly and practice. I got to

837
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: fly times a year instead of once, and I think

838
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: that's what happened. And I would take clonupin when i'd fly,

839
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: not a crazy amount, but what started happening is take

840
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: a half o'clonup in on the way out the door

841
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: of the airport, take one getting on into the airport,

842
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 1: and then take one getting on the planets. So now

843
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: that equals one point five milligrams. And I did that

844
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: for years, and so it almost like Pavlovian. Now I

845
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: don't stay clinic, and when I walk into an airport,

846
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: when I want to walk into an airport, I'm calm.

847
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: And now I'm just so glad that I'm not panicking,

848
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: that nothing about travel bothers me. I mean, obviously, in

849
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: my mind, I might go, why is this baggage claim

850
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: taking so long? Why is that person coughing? But in

851
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: general I'm not a stress case about travel because I've

852
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: already stressed it like so so anyway, it's just like

853
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: the phobia. Once the phobia was wrangled, I kind of

854
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 1: thought I was in the clear. And then, like maybe

855
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: in my early forties, I had people tell me I

856
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: think you have a d h D. Relationships I was

857
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 1: in people would say, you know, I really can't deal

858
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 1: with your anxiety, and I'd go, what anxiety? I don't

859
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: have anxiety. I worked it out, but it would be

860
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: like the kind of anxiety where maybe a negative attitude

861
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: or maybe you know, I've got to call my boyfriend

862
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: network and tell them about this shipping thing that went

863
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: wrong that was supposed to be delivered. Like these people

864
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: don't need to know every detail of every minute. It's like,

865
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just had a few years were

866
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: like I'm flying to Australia by myself and I'm like

867
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: never panicking, and yet now my anxiety is coming out

868
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: in different ways, which is very like disordered thinking, a

869
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 1: d h D reactionary and wasn't until like four years

870
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: ago that I was like, oh, this thing moves around

871
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: or more since you that control route. So if you're

872
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: talking about like this isn't about my phobia. It's about control,

873
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: whether it's controlling death, controlling whatever it is. Okay, so

874
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: we've taken that. I no longer have to control that

875
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: because now I feel good and safe and hole in

876
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: this space. But then where am I going to get

877
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: my control? And the uncertainty I think that like a

878
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,959
Speaker 1: wonderful word that pairs with anxiety. Is this like uncertainty,

879
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: like I don't know what's going to happen, and so

880
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: my anxiety does this thing where it tries to fill

881
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: in the blank, and we get dopamine when we fill

882
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 1: in the blank, but then we that wears off, and

883
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: then so we need more than what if we were wrong?

884
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,919
Speaker 1: So we no longer have to fill in the blank

885
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 1: about the plane, But then where are you going to

886
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: fill in the blank? God, that's I've never KNOWNE has

887
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:43,359
Speaker 1: ever said it to me like that point. It makes

888
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: so much sense, And now I'm like obsessed with uncertainty,

889
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: like I love it. It doesn't bother me, you know,

890
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: I'd say, now I my anxiety today, the way it

891
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: hits me would be more like a PTSD response. And

892
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: what I mean by that is like I might get

893
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: really focused on something if I feel like it's unfair,

894
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 1: this is unjust, you know, like something that triggers being

895
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: bullied as a kid or whatever. I don't know. I

896
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: just kind of can get like caught up and stuff

897
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: like that, or like hyper focus on something. Yeah, and

898
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: and it's all like my a d h D was

899
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: just wild the past couple of years. And I had

900
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: a root canal during the you know, we're still in

901
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 1: the pandemic. But when it was a little safe to

902
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: go back to the dentist, I went back and they

903
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: were like, oh my god, like the roots of your

904
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 1: blah blah tooth are like pretty destroyed and you need

905
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: a root canal. I was like, what, you know, I

906
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 1: brush my teeth and he's like that's from teeth clenching.

907
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: And I actually felt like I had a pretty easy pandemic,

908
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: so I was like I'm fine, and it's like no,

909
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: now the anxieties like sneaky, like I'm finding all the

910
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: places it's hiding and now it's like ha ha, I

911
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: will clench your teeth in the in the night, and

912
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: you will need a root canal. So it's like, you know,

913
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: it moves around. Well, so here's my question for you. Then,

914
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 1: as your anxiety is moving around, and and who knows,

915
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 1: you might choose to I'd rather have clean sween my

916
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 1: teeth in, you know, feeling like I'm going to die

917
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 1: in a plane. Somebody else might have a different opinion.

918
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: But but as your anxiety is moving around, what have

919
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: you learned about like the coping with it? Because I

920
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: think that one thing is that, like, I have tons

921
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: of anxiety, tons, and it manifests in different ways. But

922
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: I live a full life, and I think there's things

923
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: that we can do with ourselves to be able to

924
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: do that. And so what have been some really helpful

925
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: whether they're like mantras or like behaviors or systems that

926
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: you've created that allow you to like, I can live

927
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: a full life with and I can have anxiety and

928
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: it doesn't define me and I don't have to be

929
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: afraid I'm going to be sent to an asylum. I

930
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 1: think I've flipped everything on its head that I used

931
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,959
Speaker 1: to think, So that existential crisis, you know, Oh my god,

932
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: why are they talking about the war and the fift

933
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: hundreds of the world has been around. I've now turned

934
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: it into curiosity. Now I love space travel, I love

935
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: thinking about death, the afterlife, whatever you know. Um, I've

936
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: turned it's my identity, which would make me sort of

937
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: defensive and like, ay anxiety because I went through a

938
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 1: whole phase of like I'm better than everyone because I

939
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,319
Speaker 1: have anxiety because it makes you smart. You know, that

940
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 1: will so gross. So I've turned that into not my

941
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 1: identity but something I can be honest about. So, hey

942
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 1: have anxiety. So I'm not sure how this flight is

943
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,919
Speaker 1: gonna hit me today. So I got to cancel dinner

944
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: plans or what you know. And it's just I'm I

945
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,359
Speaker 1: own it, but I don't. It doesn't own me. And

946
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: then another way I cope with it. Is the biggest

947
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: one of all, which was what made me want to

948
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,439
Speaker 1: start my podcast, is I have a sense of humor

949
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: about it, which, hello, is a comedian. The last place

950
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: I put my humor was in dealing with this. I

951
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: I thought it was so serious and now it's just like,

952
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: oh that old thing, Oh the anxiety. You know. It's

953
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,439
Speaker 1: just I realized that I can just have a sense

954
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 1: of humor about the way I deal with it, or

955
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: I can think about it. Like one story I told

956
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: I think on my episode that you heard, is that

957
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: there used to be this woman I worked with could

958
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: come to your desk and she'd sigh and she'd wait

959
00:43:58,239 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 1: for you to go, what's wrong, Lisa, and if you

960
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: it and she'd walk away. And so it's like my

961
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 1: anxiety is like like that. It's like Lisa like comes

962
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: over wants my attention and I don't have to give

963
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 1: into it. And and then I also have like I

964
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: go to talk therapy once a week. Sometimes we do E. M.

965
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 1: D R. Work. I mean, every little thing I can do.

966
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: I sleep with a weighted blanket, like I started doing

967
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: that after the teeth grinding. Sometimes I don't have a

968
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 1: ton of fun I you know, try to do something

969
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 1: physical every day, like I like to hike and whatever.

970
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: Uh and you know, but you know, I drink a

971
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: ton of coffee and it doesn't affect me. It's like

972
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,760
Speaker 1: anxiety is not so literal with me in that sense.

973
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: And I think also just just staying I meditate, staying

974
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: in the like beauty of the uncertainty instead of the

975
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: scariness of it, because I can list more good things

976
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 1: that have happened to me after a period of uncertainty

977
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 1: than bad, if that makes sense. Like, honestly, everything bad

978
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: that's ever happened to me, you could kind of predict it.

979
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: Somebody died this, you know, you got sick. Yeah, we

980
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: know that's going to happen. Everything amazing that's ever happened

981
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: to me has been I never planned it, Holly ship,

982
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: Can I say that? You know as whatever as I've

983
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: been sitting here stressing about money, like this amazing job

984
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 1: like came through the next day, so that must have

985
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: been in the works while I was stressing. So I

986
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: try to think about it like that, you know, like

987
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: everything bad that's ever happened I already knew because we

988
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: know the bad things in life, and everything amazing came

989
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 1: out of the blue, so I just I just rearrange it.

990
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: I am obsessed with that, that like, because I love

991
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 1: the curiosity thing. I love that that I think is

992
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: one of the best tools, is like what if we

993
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: just were more curious than afraid? Like what if there

994
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: was more wonder in our lives? And I think wonder

995
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: has a different wonder versus worry, Like wonder is this like, oh,

996
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: that's because that's the same. They can essentially come from

997
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: the same thing, right, But like, but wonder has this

998
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: beauty to it and worry has this like tenseness to it. Um,

999
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: but we can do that with the same thing. But

1000
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: for you to say that, like every really really awesome,

1001
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: amazing thing has come out of this like uncertain time

1002
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: and that's what has made them so great. So when

1003
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 1: I'm in a time that feels uncertain, what if I

1004
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: leaned into the fact that a lot of good stuff

1005
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: come from that. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Like bad things happen,

1006
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: but like a lot of really good things happen within uncertainty,

1007
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: And I forget that. Like that's so simple but like

1008
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: so true, and I love that. And I try to

1009
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,399
Speaker 1: stay away from stuff that's like like affirmations that are

1010
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 1: solid you know, I will have this, because I think

1011
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: that can make people like me more anxious, So I

1012
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: I do. I like to do affirmations that are are

1013
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: like mantras that are like I don't know, you know,

1014
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: just like whatever's best, I think it'll you know, that

1015
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: kind of thing. I just try to change my mindset

1016
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: from like woe is me, I'm unlucky to like know,

1017
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: actually the complete opposite is true, you know, and I

1018
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: think that like affirmations that are like you will do X,

1019
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: it's like, well, you might be lying to yourself and

1020
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: that's not helpful, Like we don't know. That's part of

1021
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: the like curiosity and like the uncertainty is we don't

1022
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: really know. So for you to say like maybe like,

1023
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: well I don't know what's going to happen, but also

1024
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,439
Speaker 1: I've taken care of myself like up until now, so

1025
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: whatever is done mean I I'm most likely we'll be

1026
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: able to handle and if not, I'll figure it out

1027
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: and I'll get some help. But yeah, I love the

1028
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: way that you're you're thinking about that and inviting the

1029
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: humor in man even a therapy. That's one of the

1030
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:13,879
Speaker 1: reasons that I started this podcast because I'm like, oh

1031
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: my god, Like why do people think that therapies is

1032
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: like big, bad, scary thing that's wrong? When I laugh,

1033
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: I'm I do therapy. I saw six seven clients today.

1034
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: I laughed so much. Some days really really hard. But

1035
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: we're also allowed to invite excitement and fun into the

1036
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: depths of our lives. Like not everything has to be

1037
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: like don't take yourself so serious, and I bet life

1038
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: will be a little bit more fun, yea. And if

1039
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: you know, I would say, like, I seriously have anxiety,

1040
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: but I don't take it so seriously. And and now

1041
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: it's just sort of like I don't know, I don't know.

1042
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 1: I don't really know what the big turnaround has been.

1043
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:50,919
Speaker 1: But I just know I've been happier in the last

1044
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: couple of years, which is hard to say during a pandemic,

1045
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 1: but I really was. It was super happy, you know.

1046
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: And again that's I didn't have to worry about certain things,

1047
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: so it's like super lucky. But I just mean, my

1048
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: I remember feeling some anxiety during it, even some panic

1049
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 1: attacks sometimes. You know. There was a mild earthquake one

1050
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: night here in California and it was totally normal, but

1051
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: all the hospitals were full with COVID patients pre vaccine,

1052
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 1: and I just my mind went, oh, my gods, mean earthquake.

1053
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: You need You're gonna need to go to the hospital,

1054
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: but they're full. And I felt the thoughts and I

1055
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: felt the sensations and my body was shaking and I

1056
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 1: felt like I couldn't breathe, and I was like, just

1057
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 1: text one of your friends and just say, oh my,

1058
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: I'm having this dumbest panic attack, but like say it

1059
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: like that, don't be like help you know, and it

1060
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 1: went away. But it's something that like I talked about

1061
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 1: as needed. But it's not like all I talked about

1062
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: with my friends. I mean they probably when you have

1063
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 1: the ability to speak about it, I think that does

1064
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: lighten it. So you're talking about the difference between now

1065
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: where like it's out and open. You're talking about even

1066
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: of a podcast talking about anxiety versus when I was

1067
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,879
Speaker 1: like sixteen years old, nobody could know this. Well, that's

1068
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 1: putting a big old shame pile on top of your anxiety,

1069
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 1: which just making even worse. Well, now we can release

1070
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: that and we can have I hate to say this,

1071
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: but we can have some fun with our mental health.

1072
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 1: That seems like off or wrong, But at the same time, no,

1073
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: I think it's our given right. I mean there's also

1074
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 1: the years like in between I can't tell anyone and hey,

1075
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: I might mention it. I went through the whole like

1076
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: victim years where it's like, excuse me, I have anxiety,

1077
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: like meaning I get to add to however I want

1078
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: and hurt people. And I have anxiety and so you know,

1079
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 1: and now I'm like through that looking glass and it's

1080
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 1: just like, oh shoot, I might have to ask someone

1081
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: if they can help me. Right now, I'm having that

1082
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: feeling like I can't breathe. You know, that's it, and

1083
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 1: it's really nothing anyone can do. It's just saying it

1084
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: out loud obviously like takes the power away from it. Well,

1085
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 1: I feel like I could. I mean, we could go on.

1086
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: I wish I could take that part of your life

1087
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 1: and do a whole another podcast on that, but I'm

1088
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,919
Speaker 1: sure you're going to talk about it on yours, so

1089
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: I do. I want to remember our online people to

1090
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: go listen to Anxiety Bites. It's it's new and so

1091
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: there's gonna is it weekly now it's weak and we're

1092
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: doing forty six episodes of season one, so there's a

1093
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: lot more coming. It's a lot of content, there's a

1094
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: lot of Yeah. Every week I try to talk about

1095
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: a different aspect of helping with anxiety, like whether it's

1096
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: the meditation episode or talking to a neuroscientist or talking

1097
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: to someone that wrote a memoir. Um, I am going

1098
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 1: to do a solo episode around Thanksgiving about fear flying.

1099
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: I know, that's the busiest travel time of the year

1100
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: and all that. But yeah, and you know, it's whatever

1101
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: whatever comes up, I'll talk about, you know, whether it's

1102
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 1: a new kind of medication or whatever. But the whole,

1103
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 1: the whole point is honest conversation, something I wish i'd

1104
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 1: had when I was younger, where we're not whispering, we're

1105
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 1: not taking it so seriously, No one's a guru. It's

1106
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: it's just chatting and hopefully laughing and and like taking

1107
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 1: the stigma away from it. So yeah, nobody has to

1108
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 1: be hiding the library like you were reading the word panic.

1109
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:54,879
Speaker 1: We just get to say it out of podcast out loud,

1110
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 1: although hiding in a library sounds very relaxing. Sure, well,

1111
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: how can people find you so they can find the

1112
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 1: podcast anywhere we listen to podcasts? Correct? Yes, I took

1113
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 1: a big, simple waters me about like an idiot. Wherever

1114
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: you get your podcast, you can listen to it. And

1115
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: if they guess, they can go to my website, which

1116
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 1: is my name Jen kirkmand dot com one N and

1117
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: gin everybody, and you'll see the tab for anxiety bites

1118
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: and something I'll post about every episode and I put

1119
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 1: like little takeaways from each person that you know a

1120
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 1: little advice they give. So go to my website and

1121
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: you can read shorthand like some quick, quick and easy

1122
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: anxiety tips. Okay, awesome, And then on Instagram where do

1123
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: they find you? Same thing at Jen current Man. Amazing. Well,

1124
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: thank you so much. I enjoyed this. Um, I could

1125
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 1: sit here longer and talk to you. Well, I'm a talker,

1126
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 1: so I'm sorry. If you know what, I'm a talker too,

1127
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: and so I have to practice letting people talk. So

1128
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: this is great for me. Have a good rest for

1129
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 1: your day. I'll talk thet Yeah you too. Bye bye,