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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds and the majority of the twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: four Republican Iowa caucus goers don't believe Biden legitimately won

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Speaker 1: the twenty twenty election. We have such a great show

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Speaker 1: for you today. Run for some things. Amanda Litman tells

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Speaker 1: us about how down ballot races well make a difference

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Speaker 1: in the twenty twenty four election, and we know this

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Speaker 1: could be tight. Then we'll talk to protect democracies Ian

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Speaker 1: Bassen about protecting democracy. But first we have the host

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Speaker 1: of the Laurence o'donald Show MSNBC is Laurence O'Donnell. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to Fast Politics. Lawrence.

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Speaker 2: Great to be here.

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Speaker 1: It's so great to have you. And I feel like

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Speaker 1: I actually think I was watching the returns. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know they called it with one percent reporting.

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Speaker 3: That's not my choice. I disagree with my industry on this.

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Speaker 3: I don't think there's any reason to rush it, especially

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Speaker 3: in a I mean, could you have asked for less

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Speaker 3: suspense in the outcome of any voting process in American history?

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Speaker 3: There was no Prize awarded for you know who was

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Speaker 3: the first to say it's all over. But yeah, people

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Speaker 3: were still voting in Iowa, you know, and it's an

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Speaker 3: early finish anyway.

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Speaker 2: I don't get it. I just don't get it.

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Speaker 3: I thought, you know, DeSantis was very angry about it

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Speaker 3: and posting about how dare they? And you know, that's

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Speaker 3: the one thing I agree with Desantus about. The Ronald

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Speaker 3: Reagan election victory in nineteen eighty was called by the

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Speaker 3: networks before the polls closed in California, and so that

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Speaker 3: was the first I think of these truly outrageous things

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Speaker 3: and by the networks, and like most of us, they're

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Speaker 3: incapable of learning.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, United States of Amnesia. Yeah, I mean it's so

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Speaker 1: funny because I'm like on this Gorvidal kick and every

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Speaker 1: time you go back, and also Christopher Hitchins, like they

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Speaker 1: wrote some of these pieces twenty thirty, forty years ago,

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Speaker 1: even though the stakes are not quite as high, a

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Speaker 1: lot of the problems are the same.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And isn't it weird when you read older things

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Speaker 3: like that to discover that there used to be smart

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Speaker 3: people before us, Like we're what what they had smart

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Speaker 3: people before?

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Speaker 2: Oh? How'd they do that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Hitchens is a really good example of

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Speaker 1: someone who I don't know. He just looks at things

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Speaker 1: in a very interesting way. That makes me you want

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Speaker 1: to look at things in an interesting way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. There was a pure coldness to his logic, and

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Speaker 2: there was never the slightest attempt to accommodate anyone disagreeing

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Speaker 2: with him. And that was not considered offensive. That was

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Speaker 2: considered a perfectly legitimate conversational approach. And there were people

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Speaker 2: I know, people who knew who sharply disagreed with them,

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Speaker 2: who never felt uncomfortable in that kind of exchange. And now,

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Speaker 2: you know, so much of what we have to say

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Speaker 2: has to do simultaneously take care of the people who

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Speaker 2: are disagreeing with us as we're saying it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there are things that we can learn from Iowa

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Speaker 1: that are insane and disturbing and also I think a

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Speaker 1: little bit hopeful. So first for insane and disturbing. NBC

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Speaker 1: News Iowa Entrance poll. Did Biden legitimately win in twenty twenty?

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Speaker 1: Eighty percent of the Hailey voters say yes, forty percent

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Speaker 1: of the Disantis voters say yes, and six percent of

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Speaker 1: the Trump voters say yes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So the entrance and what will now be exit polling

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Speaker 3: from primaries that you see in the ear of Trump

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Speaker 3: are simply intelligence tests.

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Speaker 2: That's all they are. And they didn't used to be.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't an intelligence test, you know, when you were

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Speaker 3: getting Romney voter exit polling, you know, or McCain voter

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Speaker 3: exit polling. It wasn't. It was simply a disagreement about techation.

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Speaker 3: It was a disagreement about how big government should be,

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Speaker 3: how much government you can afford, and abortion issues and

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Speaker 3: gun issues. And it was not an intelligence test.

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Speaker 2: And now it is.

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Speaker 3: And Trump's the stupidest thing that's ever happened in American politics.

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Speaker 3: And you know, if you're with them, you are not

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Speaker 3: necessarily stupid. But what those polls showed, those entrance polls

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Speaker 3: show last night is that you are in an extremely

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Speaker 3: stupid group everybody. If you're not stupid in the Trump

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Speaker 3: section of the Iowa caucus, pretty much everyone around you

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Speaker 3: is profoundly stupid and pretty deeply and intensely racist at

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Speaker 3: the Hitlerian level, since eighty one percent believe, as the

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Speaker 3: CBS poll showed that eighty one percent of Republican primary voters,

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Speaker 3: which we have to remember, is a subset of Republican voters.

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Speaker 3: It is just a subset of them, but it is

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Speaker 3: the most extreme. And eighty one percent of them believe

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Speaker 3: that Trump is right that immigrants poison the blood of

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Speaker 3: this country. Nikki Haley's parents were immigrants. She is the

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Speaker 3: poison blood. She has it in her, the poison blood

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Speaker 3: that Trump is talking about. She's transmitted the poisoned blood

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Speaker 3: Trump is talking about.

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Speaker 2: To her children. And eighty one percent of the people

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Speaker 2: who Nikki Haley is trying to get to vote for

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Speaker 2: her believe she is walking poisoned blood. So the ceiling

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Speaker 2: on that candidacy is most clearly described by that poll,

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Speaker 2: more than more than any other. It's impossible for her

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Speaker 2: to get anywhere close to the nomination among those voters.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a certain amount of incredible wishcasting to think

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Speaker 1: that somehow you're going to be able to put in

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Speaker 1: someone who she's ultimately really one America. I mean again,

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Speaker 1: I am not a fan of her policy, but she's

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Speaker 1: made it in America right in a way that you

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Speaker 1: know that our great grandparents did, the way that this

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Speaker 1: is meant to work the whole country, and the idea

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Speaker 1: that somehow these people who voted you know who got

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Speaker 1: vary bubble with Trump because Trump touched that fourth rail

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Speaker 1: of racism that Republicans pretended not to believe in. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of an amazing bit of pushcast in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, she's a standard Republican candidate. She

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Speaker 2: comes from a long line of Republican candidates like her.

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Speaker 2: And what she's done is she has adopted Trumpian views

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Speaker 2: where necessary or stayed silent on them. You know, Nikki

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Speaker 2: Haley's position on tariffs, which she hasn't said a word about,

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Speaker 2: will no doubt be functionally identical to Donald Trump's. And

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Speaker 2: that's a one hundred reversal of the Republican Party position

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Speaker 2: on tariffs until Donald Trump came along. And she looks

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Speaker 2: to a lot of people, I think like a normal

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Speaker 2: Republican candidate, and that's true, but it's a normal Republican

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Speaker 2: candidate who's adapted to trump Ism in many policy corners

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Speaker 2: that go unnoticed.

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Speaker 1: A lot of us assume that you would behave like

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Speaker 1: a normal Republican if she lost, But there's ample evidence

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Speaker 1: to suggest that this authoritarian streak, while it runs through DeSantis.

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Speaker 1: Why wouldn't it necessarily run through her.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't think it would, because she's rational. Here's

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Speaker 3: the rational part. She knows this. You know, she elected governor.

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Speaker 3: The first thing you do, the first thing you have

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Speaker 3: to do after an election that you win, is work

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Speaker 3: on getting the people who didn't vote for you, picking

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Speaker 3: up as many people as possible who didn't vote for you. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, Richard Nixon wins in nineteen sixty eight by

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Speaker 3: less than one percent of the vote. Okay, it's a cliffhanger.

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Speaker 3: They don't call it until the day after and all that. Right,

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Speaker 3: So four years later he wins forty nine cents. You know,

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Speaker 3: Ronald Reagan the same thing. Well, what did they do.

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Speaker 3: They spent the entire time trying to get votes they

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Speaker 3: didn't get the first time. That's all he did. Now

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Speaker 3: that you can't get everyone, right, but there's some margin,

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Speaker 3: there's some margin. And so it's why one of the

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Speaker 3: reasons Trump has been so laughable to me since he

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Speaker 3: one in twenty sixteen. I was waiting for the day,

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Speaker 3: you know, was it going to be a week after

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Speaker 3: the election or when was it going to be the

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Speaker 3: day when he started speaking to the voters who didn't

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Speaker 3: vote for him, and he never spoke to them ever. Right,

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Speaker 3: And so the next time he loses to vote by

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Speaker 3: an even bigger margin than he lost the vote in

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Speaker 3: twenty sixteen. And what's he done since then, Well, he's

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Speaker 3: gone even farther away from the voters who didn't vote

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Speaker 3: for him. And so Hayley will not do that. Ailey

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Speaker 3: will be a Nixon Reagan, you know, Bush. That's what

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Speaker 3: you do when you get elected. You start working on

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Speaker 3: picking up two or three or five percent of the

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Speaker 3: people who didn't vote for you. She will do that.

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Speaker 3: And so that's where she is. And she's also going

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Speaker 3: to have a dysfunctional Congress basically, you know that won't

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Speaker 3: be able to deliver very much. So there's not much

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Speaker 3: she can do. She certainly won't spend ten seconds of

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Speaker 3: her time shuring the Israeli government to possibly be more

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Speaker 3: humane and their approach to a situation in Gaza. And

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Speaker 3: what she might or might not.

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Speaker 2: Do or support doing with Ukraine is likely to be

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Speaker 2: much closer to Biden than to Trump on Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: And put it that way, what you're talking about is

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Speaker 1: a really interesting point about Trump's in staunch refusal to

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Speaker 1: grow the electorate and You've talked about this with me before,

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Speaker 1: and we've talked about this together, and it is why

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Speaker 1: I actually think that Trump is again. I do think

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Speaker 1: he'll ultimately be the Republican nominee. But he is ultimately

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Speaker 1: in trouble because he's not shown any interest ever in

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Speaker 1: growing his face.

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Speaker 2: If you look at Biden, it's the standard version. Like

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Speaker 2: when he wins, the first speech he makes is inclusive

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Speaker 2: and reaches up to people who didn't vote for him.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's true of Richard Dixon, it's true of

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Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan, It's true all these people. It's the very

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Speaker 2: first thing they do, and true of Bill Clinton. And

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Speaker 2: by the way, Bill Clinton, the big group to reach

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Speaker 2: for was the Ross Puau voter. You know, there was

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Speaker 2: a giant.

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Speaker 3: Third party vote in nineteen ninety two. Bill Clinton gets

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Speaker 3: elected with forty three percent of the vote. That wasn't

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Speaker 3: very comfortable. So he spends every day trying to talk

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Speaker 3: to the Parrot voter, you know, while also trying to

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Speaker 3: hold onto what he had with voters. And that's how

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Speaker 3: he got reelected. It's just the way it works. And

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Speaker 3: so the tension that people have to learn to live

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Speaker 3: with now is that you have a fifty three percent,

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Speaker 3: saye population. Okay, the CBS poll shows that fifty three

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Speaker 3: percent of Americans disagree with Donald Trump that immigrants are

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Speaker 3: poisoning the blood of America. Okay, So that means fifty

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Speaker 3: three percent is your maximum number of sane people in America.

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Speaker 3: Fifty three percent, that's it. And so Biden doesn't get

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Speaker 3: to work with seventy percent of the population. Potentially, fifty

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Speaker 3: three percent is the absolute maximum that he could get

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Speaker 3: if every single person who thought that voted for him.

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Speaker 3: And the trouble is that many of the people who

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Speaker 3: disagree with Trump on poisoning the blood of America also

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Speaker 3: want lower taxes, so you know, or other things right

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Speaker 3: that Biden's not going to give them. So the maximum

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Speaker 3: spot you can get to in these elections at most

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Speaker 3: is fifty point one percent.

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Speaker 2: And so they're going to be close. They're going to

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Speaker 2: always be close.

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Speaker 3: And it's ridiculous, you know that Donald Trump should have

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Speaker 3: like a closer he should lose more narrowly than Jimmy

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Speaker 3: Carter lost. Is kind of ridiculous, but that's the country

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Speaker 3: you live in now, you know. You notice that the

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Speaker 3: Republican side is completely comfortable with this. They're one hundred

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Speaker 3: percent comfortable with this. They know that when you're landing

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Speaker 3: this plane that the wheels are going to scrape the

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Speaker 3: top of them out and tops, but they don't care

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Speaker 3: about how close it is. Nobody on the Republican side

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Speaker 3: is worried about how alienating Trump is, how unpopular Trump is.

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Speaker 3: In fact, no one on the Republican side is urging

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Speaker 3: Trump to do something to appeal to these voters, the

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Speaker 3: way everybody on the Democratic side has a suggestion to

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Speaker 3: Joe Biden about how he has to appeal to voters

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Speaker 3: who aren't quite with him just yet. There's never a

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Speaker 3: suggestion about that on the Trump side. And that's this

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Speaker 3: is a guy, you know, who lost by you know,

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Speaker 3: seven million votes or something last time, and no one's

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Speaker 3: saying it to him, Hey, you got to gotta do

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Speaker 3: better than that. Why do you think that is this

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Speaker 3: interesting professionalism about voting On the Republican side, they are politicians.

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Speaker 3: We now know it more than ever that the Republican

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Speaker 3: voter is a politician. You know, I used to say

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Speaker 3: this to people that you know during the Clinton years

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Speaker 3: other times that you know, one of the one of

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Speaker 3: the things I didn't want people to have to become

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Speaker 3: was a politician themselves.

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Speaker 2: When they went into the voting booth.

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Speaker 3: And so, you know, I used to, you know, welcomely

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Speaker 3: encourage people who thought they wanted to vote for a

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Speaker 3: third party or make some statement with their vote, especially

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Speaker 3: if they lived in New York or California, because it

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Speaker 3: won't matter in the electoral college. But by all means

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Speaker 3: do so, because you shouldn't be forced into becoming a

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Speaker 3: politician with your vote. Well, Republicans never bought that right,

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Speaker 3: and so the Republicans were never voting for Ralph Nader

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Speaker 3: or anything like that, but Democrats were. And I certainly

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Speaker 3: did many times, you know, vote for third party candidates.

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Speaker 3: But I always voted in Massachusetts, New York, or California,

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Speaker 3: so my vote never mattered. It's never mattered once in

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Speaker 3: my life, the presidential votes. And so I could play

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Speaker 3: around with it in any way I wanted to.

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Speaker 2: But Republican voters were already politicians. They were already making

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Speaker 2: that calculation of yeah, you know, this guy's not perfect.

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Speaker 2: Romney's not perfect, but I'm with him. McCain's not perfect,

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Speaker 2: but I'm voting farm. Many Republicans definitely did not think

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Speaker 2: Ron Reagan was perfect, but you know, okay, we're will it,

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Speaker 2: you know, And the Democrats have always been more ambitious

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Speaker 2: than that, much less willing to come to that final

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Speaker 2: decision as a voter to be a politician.

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Speaker 3: They often have not chosen to do that. And it's

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Speaker 3: in the nature of the way these two parties vote,

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Speaker 3: and it's a riskier thing on the Democratic side. And

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Speaker 3: that's how Richard Nixon became president in nineteen sixty eight,

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Speaker 3: because you know, people thought young voters thought that, you know,

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Speaker 3: Humphrey and Nixon were the same. Turned out they weren't.

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Speaker 3: I certainly believe that I was a little kid at

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Speaker 3: the time. I was hearing it from everybody, you know,

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Speaker 3: all my.

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Speaker 2: Older brothers, you know, Humphrey and Nixon's to say, okay,

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Speaker 2: you know, so I didn't care. I mean, as a

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Speaker 2: little kid that he were Humphrey lost. I didn't know

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Speaker 2: that what was at stake. And so the notion of

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Speaker 2: lesser of two eevils voting was a very common understanding

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Speaker 2: of the way it works in a two party system.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't work that way in Israel.

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Speaker 3: You get to vote for exactly what you think, and

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Speaker 3: in parliamentary systems you get to do that.

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Speaker 2: But in our system, which was set up specifically to

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Speaker 2: avoid the kind of coalition stuff that occurs in parliaments,

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Speaker 2: the idea, you know, lesser of two evils was what

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Speaker 2: I was looking at on ballots pretty much most of

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Speaker 2: my life. You know. It's like I wasn't enthusiastic about

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Speaker 2: what the menu choice was. And so I think one.

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Speaker 3: Of the Obama effects I think might be, especially with

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Speaker 3: younger voters voters can cast their first vote for Obama,

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Speaker 3: is that they get to idealize presidential voting. They get

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Speaker 3: to go, oh, no, got I voted for a perfect candidate.

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Speaker 2: I agreed with them on everything, said, well, wow, I

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Speaker 2: never experience and that's pretty amazing. The Republicans are very

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Speaker 2: used to this, that you vote for what's in front

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Speaker 2: of you, and you know, you take the one thing

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Speaker 2: they're serving on the menu, and you know, you know,

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Speaker 2: and Democrats, especially the younger voters I think who got

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Speaker 2: had that Obama experience of idealizing their vote is they

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Speaker 2: feel weird about how come I don't feel idealizing in

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Speaker 2: my vote for Joe Biden. And so in the end,

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Speaker 2: in September, October November, I think the focus on lesser

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Speaker 2: of two evils will be pretty clear.

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Speaker 3: I don't think there's going to be that Humphrey Nixon

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Speaker 3: mistake again, because Trump is so much more vividly bad.

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Speaker 3: Even the Nixon was in nineteen sixty eight, and he

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Speaker 3: was pretty bad looking in nineteen sixty eight, but Trump

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Speaker 3: is much worse. And so you know, we had a

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Speaker 3: voter interviewed in New Hampshire West that on MSNBC who

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Speaker 3: said she's heavily left, describe yourself as heavily left, and

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Speaker 3: then said she would, of course vote for Nicki.

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Speaker 2: Haley over Joe Biden. Well, you're not heavily left, or

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Speaker 2: you have a little more homework to do. I know

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Speaker 2: for a fact, absolute certainty. In fact, I want to

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Speaker 2: track down that voter and bring her on in October

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Speaker 2: and ask her, you know, how she's feeling, because she's

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Speaker 2: not going to vote.

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Speaker 3: For Republican judges and Republican Supreme Court justices. She's not

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Speaker 3: and she's not going to vote for Republican candidate who

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Speaker 3: has zero sympathies or no sense whatsoever that there should

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Speaker 3: be any restraint ever suggested to the Israeli military. She's

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Speaker 3: not going to vote for that candidate.

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Speaker 1: No, of course not. Thank you so much, Lawrence. This

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Speaker 1: is really great.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Amanda Littman is the co founder of Run for Something.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics. My MVP of the week,

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Speaker 1: Amanda Littman.

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Speaker 4: I'm always always happy to be here, Mollie.

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Speaker 1: Last was a big week for Run for Something, because

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Speaker 1: yet again a lot of your candidates took the stage

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Speaker 1: and were shown to be just superstars. Can we talk

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Speaker 1: about Congresswoman Crockett.

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Speaker 5: Jasmine Krockett from the Great State of Texas is just

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Speaker 5: killing it in the best possible way. You know. Run

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Speaker 5: for Something worked with her in her first race for

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Speaker 5: the Texas State House, and when she won the seat there,

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Speaker 5: she was one of the leaders pushing Greg Abbott and

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Speaker 5: Republicans especially against voter suppression and horrific bills they were

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Speaker 5: trying to pass. Not only did pass in Texas, she

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Speaker 5: became one of the first Run for Something alum to

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Speaker 5: take a seat in Congress and has over and over

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Speaker 5: and over again proven why it really matters to have young,

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Speaker 5: diverse progressives who show up differently and lead differently and

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Speaker 5: do not give a single fuck about what the norms

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Speaker 5: are in terms of civility and is really ready to

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Speaker 5: hold people accountable for their actions.

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Speaker 4: She's an all star.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things about the congresswoman is she

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Speaker 1: actually had really I think appropriate background for Congress. Can

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Speaker 1: you explain a little bit about that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So, Jasmine was a civil rights attorney, she was

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Speaker 5: a public defender. She started her own law firms. She

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Speaker 5: duck on a bunch of pro bono cases. She originally

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Speaker 5: ran for the Texas State House back in twenty nineteen

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Speaker 5: in a special election and then was able to run

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Speaker 5: for Congress again in a special election after a Congresswoman

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Speaker 5: Bernice Johnson, and now she wasn't going to seek reelection.

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Speaker 5: She was in a competitive primary she didn't want. In general,

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Speaker 5: she's like exactly the kind of person you want in office.

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Speaker 5: She is really values driven, she's super smart, and most important,

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Speaker 5: I think she's like very clearly able to call out

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Speaker 5: the bullshit when she sees it in a way that

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Speaker 5: it makes brings so much fresh energy, especially to the

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Speaker 5: hearings that she's doing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, she just it's not business as usual, right,

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Speaker 1: it's really people's lives.

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Speaker 5: And she understands, like really intimately I think and inherently

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Speaker 5: the value of making a scene like I think this

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Speaker 5: is Republicans been really good at, especially in these congressional

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Speaker 5: hearings over the years, that like going viral not is

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Speaker 5: like is a good thing because it brings attention to

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Speaker 5: an issue you're trying to bring.

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Speaker 4: She knows that, like she didn't get into.

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Speaker 5: This to wait her turn, that some people might want

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Speaker 5: her to stay quieted, but she is just deeply ready

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Speaker 5: to cause a little good trouble, I guess is the

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Speaker 5: best way of saying it.

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Speaker 1: The Oversight Committee was set up by Republicans to be

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Speaker 1: good on television right and to make viral moments that

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Speaker 1: they could then fundraise off of. And what he did

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Speaker 1: which was smart, was he then put on people on

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Speaker 1: the Democratic side who could also do that. The congresswoman

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Speaker 1: is really still new, so I think it's really valuable.

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Speaker 1: But one of the things I wanted to ask you too,

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Speaker 1: is this is a case of a candidate. She comes

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Speaker 1: from a red state that might have a swingy future.

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Speaker 1: We've talked a lot about how important it is. You

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Speaker 1: and I have talked a lot about how important it

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Speaker 1: is to run people in seats even when you might

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Speaker 1: not win. Can you talk about the importance of that.

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Speaker 5: Yes, So I think Congressman Crockett is a really good

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Speaker 5: example of the voters in her community are going to

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Speaker 5: show up for her because they're excited by her. And

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Speaker 5: we're seeing the same thing happen in districts across the country,

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Speaker 5: even in places where we don't always come out on top,

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Speaker 5: simply fielding candidates and fielding candidates voters can get excited about,

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Speaker 5: especially at the most local levels state house, state senate,

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Speaker 5: city council, school board, can really gin up turnout. We

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Speaker 5: did studies on this back in twenty twenty, and we

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Speaker 5: looked at the presidential election and state legislative races and

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Speaker 5: the governor's races, and found that simply fielding a candidate

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Speaker 5: for a state legislative race in summer we hadn't before,

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Speaker 5: which historically have been a lot of districts that have

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Speaker 5: gone uncontested, can increase turnout for the top of the

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Speaker 5: ticket in that district by anywhere between half a percent

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Speaker 5: and close to two and a half percent. That's the

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Speaker 5: margin of victory. It makes a lot of sense, like

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Speaker 5: these local candidates are knocking doors, they're having personal conversations

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Speaker 5: with voters, They are much more relatable in many ways

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Speaker 5: than the top of the ticket whatever that is. In

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Speaker 5: that place, they are really running strong, brassroots driven campaigns,

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Speaker 5: especially as folks that run for something works with and

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Speaker 5: it's much easier, I think, to connect those races to

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Speaker 5: your day to day life. Like, yes, obviously what happens

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Speaker 5: in DC is incredibly important, but what happens to your

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Speaker 5: school and the streets you drive on and the cost

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Speaker 5: of your home, all of that is being determined at

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Speaker 5: the local level, and you get to really have a

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Speaker 5: conversation with a person who's making a decision about it.

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Speaker 1: And so let us talk about your theory of the

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Speaker 1: case when it comes to the twenty twenty four election

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Speaker 1: and how down ballot candidates could help the top of

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Speaker 1: the ticket.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think we're going to see this, especially in

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty four when, as we now know, it is

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Speaker 5: going to be Trump first Biden. Many of us have

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Speaker 5: known for a while, but I think it's like really

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Speaker 5: starting to think in with the Iowa behind us, it's

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Speaker 5: going to be Trump first Biden round two. There's a

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Speaker 5: lot of people who aren't that excited about it.

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Speaker 4: That's okay.

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Speaker 5: You don't necessarily have to be excited to show up

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Speaker 5: at the polls, but you do have to show up,

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Speaker 5: and I think it's really good to give people a

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Speaker 5: reason besides the presidency. So one of the things we

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Speaker 5: run for Something is really focusing on this year is

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Speaker 5: making sure we're recruiting and supporting candidates everywhere, but especially

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Speaker 5: in these places where there's really top of the ticket consequences.

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Speaker 5: Expect to work with more than eight hundred and fifty

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Speaker 5: candidates this year. Over one hundred and thirty five of

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Speaker 5: them are likely to be focused exclusively in Michigan, Wisconsin,

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Speaker 5: and Pennsylvania, knowing that the electoral college will likely be

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Speaker 5: decided in those three key states. We're also thinking a

437
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 5: lot about where our school board candidates in California and

438
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 5: New York can help maybe spur up turnout for the

439
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 5: congressional races, where our local folks in Montana can help

440
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 5: John Tester increase his help hold the Senate hopefully. You know,

441
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 5: all of this makes a difference in an election that

442
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 5: will likely be decided by tens of thousands of votes,

443
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 5: if not less.

444
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 1: When you talk about school boards, we really saw what

445
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: could happen with school boards and ultimately the Moms for

446
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: Liberty Crew really did just get creamed. But you were

447
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: involved in that, so talk about that. Yeah.

448
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 5: One for Something had a seventy two percent win raid

449
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 5: for our school board races in twenty twenty three, Moms

450
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 5: for Liberty had maybe in the thirty percentage range of

451
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 5: a third of their folks one thirty too much. Yeah,

452
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 5: like they're not more popular. There's not book not popular.

453
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 5: Talking about fur Asian schools not popular. Distracting from the

454
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 5: issues like teacher pay and facilities funding and how we're

455
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 5: teaching our kids to read. Not popular when we can win.

456
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 4: So it's why I run for something.

457
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 5: That's really thinking about candidate recruitment, especially right now when

458
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 5: the deadlines are coming up week after week.

459
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 4: It is almost too.

460
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 5: Late to run for office, but probably not too late

461
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 5: depending on where you are.

462
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: And if you're a woman, you need to be told.

463
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: Just remind us that's statistic, because I think that's so important.

464
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 5: You know, there's research that says women need to be

465
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 5: asked seven times before they run for office. So the

466
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 5: joke goes, men don't need to be asked at all.

467
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 5: They'll tell you when they're.

468
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 4: Running and ask you for money.

469
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,640
Speaker 5: Right, so you know, if you're listening to this, I'm

470
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 5: asking for run. I'm asking you to run seven times

471
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 5: over and we'll help you if you decide to get

472
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 5: on the ballot.

473
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you'll always be better than Dean Phillips.

474
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 4: Always the bar is so luck you will always be

475
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 4: there and feel it.

476
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: Tell me about some of the other races that we

477
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 1: should be watching. If you are listening to this and

478
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: you're thinking about running, what are the low hanging fruit,

479
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: the kind of small races that make a big difference.

480
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I would definitely be looking at school board races.

481
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 5: There are you know, twenty four thousand of them happening

482
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 5: this year that are going to be incredibly important and

483
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 5: that will do a big push towards turnout at the

484
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 5: top of the ticket. We know Republicans especially are investing

485
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 5: pretty intensely in school board races in California, specifically to

486
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 5: help their congressional folks. I'd also take a look at

487
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 5: things like mayor and city council races in Phoenix, Arizona,

488
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 5: and Maricopa County in Scottsdale, where there's some really critical

489
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 5: turnout that could happen.

490
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 4: We're looking, of.

491
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 5: Course at races in Missouri where there's an exciting governor's race,

492
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 5: and also a ton of local elections there. There's city

493
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,719
Speaker 5: council and mayorship races in some of the bigger places

494
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 5: in North Carolina that can make a difference. Obviously, there's

495
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 5: a bunch of stuff happening in Ohio, especially a state

496
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 5: Supreme Court race. There's like city some in balladives happening.

497
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 5: There are local elections happening all across Texas, including positions

498
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 5: that directly oversee the election, like sheriff and tax assessor

499
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,719
Speaker 5: and county commissions, which we're counting on the future of democracy.

500
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 4: It would be good if people held them.

501
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 5: And I would say in Wisconsin, you know there's the

502
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 5: unicipal elections happening this April that will make a difcs

503
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 5: and what's happening in November. So all of these is

504
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 5: the way to win the big ones is to win

505
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 5: these small ones.

506
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's worth I mean, we're talking

507
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: about California. So in twenty twenty two, the red wave

508
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: right where we were told there would be a red

509
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: wave and Democrats would get their assets handed to them.

510
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: One of the way is that Republicans won was they

511
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: won these in Biden districts in California and New York.

512
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: So is that what you're talking about when you're talking

513
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 1: about Republicans running school board candidates in California?

514
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 4: Exactly right?

515
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 5: And we have heard this sort of through the grapevine

516
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 5: that they have been very intentionally focusing on work in California.

517
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 5: Just let an email from the Leadership Institute in the

518
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 5: last week or two.

519
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 4: They're starting up.

520
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 5: All of these trainings for activists in southern California, specifically.

521
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 4: For school board races and local races, but.

522
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 5: Coincidentally located the same place as there are competitive congressional seeds.

523
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 5: That's how they're going to try and hold the house,

524
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 5: and we're gonna be there to stop them.

525
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,959
Speaker 1: Right, And I think that's really important. I mean, it's

526
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: funny because it's like so many of these races. If

527
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 1: you look at twenty two, I'm thinking about George Santos, right,

528
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: George Santos won that race because there was a lack

529
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: of democratic enthusiasm and a lack of investigation and a

530
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: guy who really read is pretty sketchy even from early on.

531
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: That needs to not happen again in twenty four.

532
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 5: And I think like the thing to keep in mind

533
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 5: here is people are coming on like the Biden versus Trump,

534
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 5: you know, to do all the work here to get

535
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 5: people to show up with the polls. But in places

536
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 5: like basically everywhere outside of the core electoral battleground states,

537
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 5: Biden's not going to have a campaign presence, nor should he.

538
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 5: That's not a job. His job is to win the

539
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 5: White House. His campaign job is to win the White House.

540
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 5: Going to have organizers on the ground in some of

541
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 5: these suburban districts in New York and California. Nor will

542
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 5: they have folks on the ground in places like Montana,

543
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 5: where we need to win to hold the Senate.

544
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: Right. Oh, because it's not a presidential.

545
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 5: Joe Biden's not gonna win Montana, and it would be

546
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 5: foolish campaign to spend resources to try and win Montana.

547
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 4: But we can.

548
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 5: Absolutely help John Tester by investing in city council races,

549
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,239
Speaker 5: school board races, county offices, the kinds of positions that

550
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 5: maybe if the candidate themselves doesn't win, but they get

551
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 5: an extra two hundred voters to show up for them

552
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 5: that wouldn't otherwise, that can help John.

553
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 4: Tester win that state and hold that state.

554
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 5: So that's what we're looking out across the country is

555
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 5: making sure that we have really good candidates running in

556
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 5: as many places as possible to do the kind of

557
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 5: communications and organizing work that we know wins elections, especially

558
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 5: knowing that the Biden campaign isn't and shouldn't necessarily.

559
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 4: Be everywhere that we also need to win.

560
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a really good point. And you know,

561
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: it's funny it's we're talking about this, but it is true,

562
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: Like the Biden campaign can only work in the states

563
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: where Biden needs to win or will win, right, and

564
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: those are states like Arizona, right, states like and they're

565
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: not states like Ohio, which is a Senate seat that

566
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: Democrats desperately need to keep.

567
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 5: Exactly right, And I don't involve the Biden campaign for that.

568
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 5: They're doing exactly the right thing, investing as much as

569
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 5: they can and the key states they need to win

570
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 5: the electoral College. We as a community of people who

571
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 5: also care about other things, need to be investing everywhere else.

572
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to ask you about Florida because I

573
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: feel like one of the things that you're not on

574
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,959
Speaker 1: the ground reporting. That's not your job, obviously, but you

575
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: do get to see where candidates are coming from, and

576
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: I have a suspicion like if you looked at Arizona

577
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: Sheriff Joe or Bio caused a great deal of a

578
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: lot of really cool candidates came out of what was

579
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: really bad and hurtful anti immigrant policy from this deranged sheriff.

580
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: Are you seeing a similar dynamic out of Florida.

581
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, we are seeing some, especially on the education side

582
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 5: of things. You know, superintendents in Florida are elected positions

583
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 5: are county wide school boards, and these districts tend to

584
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 5: be really big because they're county wide. In many places,

585
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 5: the supervisors of elections are county wide and a lot

586
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 5: of power all of these positions. We are seeing some

587
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 5: really like just batchet stuff like that I just saw

588
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 5: I think earlier last week. They're banning Bill O'Reilly's book.

589
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 5: They're banning the Dictionary, They're banning Bible, they are banning

590
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 5: you know, novels that are like core to cannon and

591
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 5: foundational text for so many, especially teenagers. They're going over

592
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 5: the line that SIT's not popular, but we have to

593
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 5: make fighting against them, and one of the Florida is

594
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 5: one of the places we're really thinking about doing more

595
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 5: school board work in the years to come, because you know,

596
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 5: Ron De Santis is not going to be president, but

597
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 5: he's going to stay governor of Florida for a while,

598
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 5: and we're going to make sure that he is being

599
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 5: held accountable for the political machine that he has built there,

600
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 5: which includes a lot of these school board candidates.

601
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: We had this candidate who's running for Senate in Florida.

602
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: Her name is Debbie Powell and she's running against really

603
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: Rick Scott is the guy from Mars attack. Do you

604
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: think that there is any chance for like a kind

605
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: of miraculous backlash, I mean like a sort of brown

606
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: back kind of phenomenon the way that it happened in

607
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: Kansas and Florida.

608
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think anything is possible.

609
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 5: We got to make sure we have folks on the

610
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 5: ground having the conversations to hold other than Florida Republican

611
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 5: Party accountable. Florida Democrats have been in a tough spot.

612
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 5: You know, it's become sort of a tautological truism. They

613
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 5: don't win and then a hard time raising the money

614
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 5: so that they really can't win. But we're going to

615
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 5: be there for the long haul and hope to be

616
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 5: part of the Florida comeback story.

617
00:31:58,640 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 4: What's such that it could be?

618
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be really exciting. Tell me other states

619
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: where you're sort of seeing staff for where you feel

620
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: that there's something brewing.

621
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 5: I think there are so many places where are really

622
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 5: exciting candidates we're working with this year.

623
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 4: Obviously, amazing folks down in Texas.

624
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 5: We're already talking to people that are running in twenty

625
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 5: twenty five down in Texas, which is good. We're going

626
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 5: to need that long runway to have those conversations. Got

627
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 5: amazing folks in Illinois, Missouri, Ohio. There's incredible leadership in

628
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 5: mayor Justin Bibb in Cleveland. I'm trying to build that

629
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 5: bench there.

630
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 4: We have really cool folks who.

631
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 5: Have run and won. In Indiana, of all places, it's

632
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 5: Mike Pence's home state, but he's not going to be

633
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 5: on the beout there.

634
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 4: But we have some amazing local folks who.

635
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 5: Are coming up and really like showing what could be possible.

636
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 4: For an Indiana Democrat. I'm really excited about our folks in.

637
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 5: Nevada, Colorado, Washington State, Upstate New York, Connecticut. And really

638
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 5: the cool part about this work is there's so many

639
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 5: exciting people running in every single state who give me

640
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 5: a re and to think that, yeah, like the president

641
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 5: is kind of bleak, but the future, if we get there,

642
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 5: will be really right.

643
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, we just have to get there. I think that

644
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: Biden can be Trump. I have a fair amount of

645
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: confidence in that. But I do think that there are

646
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,959
Speaker 1: a lot of young progressives who might not be super

647
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: excited by Biden for any number of reasons, and that

648
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: this would be a way to theoretically get them to

649
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: turn out.

650
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:25,959
Speaker 4: Right, that's exactly right.

651
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 5: And I think especially for young voters who are correctly

652
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 5: in many cases furious at the Biden administration, like, we

653
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 5: need them to show up for other reasons. And if

654
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 5: they also cast the ballot for Biden, that's fine.

655
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 4: They don't ask it, not it. They just got to

656
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 4: show up with the polls.

657
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 5: And the more we can give them a reason to

658
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 5: be on the presidency, the better.

659
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's a really good point. This

660
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: is the do you want to have elections? Election?

661
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 5: And like, do you want to have elections elections? Do

662
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 5: you want to have reproductive rights elections? Do you want

663
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 5: to have the right to marry who you love?

664
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 4: To read?

665
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 5: What you want to, you know, be able to buy

666
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 5: or rent a home and a place you want to live.

667
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 5: That's what's at stake here, and the more that our

668
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 5: local folks can really communicate that, the better.

669
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Amanda anytime Molly. Ian Basson is

670
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: the executive director of Protect Democracy. Welcome Too Fast Politics.

671
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 2: Ian, I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having So.

672
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 1: This is going to air tomorrow, we will be in

673
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: this kind of post traumatic malaise of the realization that

674
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: most of us, I think knew this was coming, but

675
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 1: there is something spectacularly grim about the reality that Trump

676
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: is going to be the Republican nomine.

677
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 2: I think we're all in a state of denial, even

678
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 2: those of us who pay excruciatingly close attention to these matters.

679
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 2: But nationally, there seems to be an inability or an

680
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 2: unwillingness to look at and did just hard things. And

681
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,399
Speaker 2: so you see this, I think within the Republican ranks,

682
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 2: where people are wishing it away, columnists writing chantasy stories

683
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 2: about well it could be somebody else, or maybe he's

684
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 2: not so bad, all of that, and you see it

685
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: in the pro democracy coalition seeming to not yet be

686
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: able to digest the reality that we are going to

687
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 2: be facing an election this year in which someone who

688
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 2: tried to overturn the results of the book last time

689
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 2: and is a facially patent authoritarian is going to be

690
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 2: one of the candidates that have fifty percent chance or

691
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: better of winning.

692
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: Let's talk about where you are involved in this. Tell

693
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: us what EURO up to.

694
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 2: So I run an organization called Protect Democracy, which is

695
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 2: a cross ideological anti authoritarianism group, and I come to

696
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 2: this out of the background as a government lawyer. I

697
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 2: served for the first three years of the Obama administration

698
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 2: of the White House Counsel's Office, where part of my

699
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: job was counseling executive branch officials on the rules that

700
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 2: governed executive branch behavior and trying to make sure that

701
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 2: we didn't violent. And when I did that work, I

702
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 2: inherited a set of rules from the Bush administration, and

703
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: if I had questions about them, I called EMMITTT. Flood

704
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 2: did my job for the Bush administration. If Embitt I

705
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: could answer it, we called the lawyer who did it

706
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 2: for the Clinton administration. It didn't matter whether you were

707
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 2: serving under a Republican or a Democratic president. The rules

708
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 2: were the same from administration to administration. And when Donald

709
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 2: Trump was elected in twenty sixteen, it marked a turning

710
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 2: point for our country because unlike anyone else who was

711
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: running from Bernie Centers on the left to ten crews

712
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 2: on the right, Donald Trump doesn't believe in our constitutional,

713
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 2: representative democratic form of government. He aspires to be a dictator.

714
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 2: He admires the world's leading autocrats. And so it was

715
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 2: a moment that called for the beginning to assemble a

716
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: coalition that would try to protect the foundations of our democracy.

717
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: And that coalition needs to include progressives and moderates and conservatives,

718
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: Democrats and republican and our organization does include all of

719
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 2: those people to stand up for the right of a

720
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 2: free people to continue to self govern and every four

721
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: years to be out able to have a free and

722
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 2: fair choice of who to elect. And that is what

723
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: is in danger right now. And so my role in

724
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 2: this is to be part of the coalissionment tries to

725
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: protect democracy for the next generation.

726
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm thinking about what it was like when government

727
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 1: lawyers just did their job with no partisanship, right, I mean,

728
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: emmid Flood wasn't going to tell you, you know, Yeah,

729
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: we just threw that stuff out because we weren't interested

730
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: in it, or we let our boss take home classified documents.

731
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 2: As any lawyer who served in the executive or a

732
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 2: president will tell you, every president tries to push the

733
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: bounds of presidential power. If you look at a ledger

734
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: at the end of an administration. This is true for Democrats, Republicans,

735
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 2: going back to the beginning of the republic, there are

736
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: a bunch of issues in which they tried to push

737
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 2: the balance and then they said, nope, you know what,

738
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 2: the system probably shouldn't allow me to do that, and

739
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: they relent. Now there's a bunch where they pushed the

740
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 2: battance and they said, oh, you know, maybe this is

741
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 2: one where I can kind of push a little bit

742
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 2: and get a little bit more powerful the executive. And

743
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 2: there's always a couple of examples on each side of

744
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 2: the ledger for every president. What is fundamentally different about

745
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 2: Donald Trump is he doesn't believe there should be any

746
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,959
Speaker 2: restrictions on his power at all.

747
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: Waking up on this sort of dawn of another bout

748
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: of authoritarianism, and what can we do.

749
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 2: The way we at least think about it is that

750
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 2: our democracy coalition in this country needs to essentially do

751
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: three things if we're going to survive this moment. And

752
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: when I say survived this moment, I don't just mean

753
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: Donald Trump, because Donald Trump is riding a wave of

754
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 2: authoritarianism that has been sweeping the world in the twenty

755
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,240
Speaker 2: first century. You know, democracy had been on the rise

756
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: in the last quarter of the twentieth century, and then

757
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 2: sometime in the early aughts it plateaued and began to

758
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 2: go into reverse. And so you've seen countries that had

759
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 2: been making progress democratically, countries like Venezuela, countries like Poland,

760
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 2: countries like Hungary or Turkey or even India backsliding into

761
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 2: more illiberal and authoritarian forms of government. And that's happening

762
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 2: here as well. So in order for us to survive

763
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 2: this moment, which goes beyond Donald Trump, he has symptom,

764
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 2: not cause of this, although he poses an acute threat

765
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 2: because he is an extremely talented demogogue. We essentially need

766
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 2: to do three things. The first is just put the

767
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: fire out that is engulfing our house, and that is

768
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,919
Speaker 2: making sure that the twenty twenty four election is free

769
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 2: and fair and that ideally a candidate wins who believes

770
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 2: in our system of government, who is pro liberal representative democracy.

771
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 2: And that's the first challenge. The second is that our

772
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: founders anticipated that there would be self interested tyrants who

773
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 2: would try to aggrandize power for themselves. They built the

774
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 2: constitution in response to King George being a tyrant, and

775
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 2: they built a system of overlapping checks and balances and

776
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 2: guard rails to constrain tyranny. And those worked relatively well

777
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: in Trump's first term, not by themselves. They weren't self executing,

778
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 2: is because people use them, but they were exposed as

779
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 2: perhaps not being as strong as we would like. The

780
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: second thing we need to do is we need to

781
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 2: strengthen those guardrails, and we need to do that ideally

782
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: without an autocratic power, but certainly in the instance that

783
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 2: we might have an autocred and power. And the third

784
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: thing we need to do is there's a reason why

785
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,280
Speaker 2: we're in this mess, and that is that the current

786
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: structures of our system are in many ways incentivizeding this behavior.

787
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,959
Speaker 2: Kevin McCarthy and the other Republicans who behaved in incredibly irresponsible,

788
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,959
Speaker 2: antidemocratic ways, in a lot of ways, they were doing

789
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 2: the rational thing. If you had their set of incentives,

790
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 2: and that's because the current structures of our system, the

791
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 2: two party duopoly, the first past the post electoral system

792
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 2: that we have, where the gerrymandering of districts, the ways

793
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 2: that primaries dictate who wins general elections, those are all

794
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 2: incentivized in this behavior. They went to college, and so

795
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 2: we've got to change some of those structures. Over the

796
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 2: last one hundred and fifty years, every other advanced democracy

797
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 2: in the world has updated its system to reflect the

798
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 2: fact that we've all learned what makes a better system.

799
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 2: The only country that hasn't done that is ours. Steve

800
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: Levitski and Daniel Ziblat, the authors of the book How

801
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: Democracies Die, have a new book out called Tyranny of

802
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 2: the Minority, where they talk about the fact that we

803
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 2: as a country are advising other nations on how to

804
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 2: update their democracies to be more resilient, and we're not

805
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 2: taking that medicine ourselves. It's like a Somalia saying, drink this,

806
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 2: but I won't drink it. Right. We need to update

807
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 2: our system, and so we need to do all three

808
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 2: of those things, and we've been working out all of

809
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 2: those fronts as an organization, but we've got to do

810
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 2: it really as a country.

811
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: Really good point. I'm curious to know what that would

812
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: look like. Give me a few ideas here.

813
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: Let's get specific. So we talk about protecting the free

814
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: and fair election. We're talking about a couple different aspects

815
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 2: of this. I'll just name two of them. What is

816
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 2: elections only work when you have a healthy information ecosystem

817
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 2: where we're all having a debate on a shared set

818
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 2: of facts. And one of the challenges we faced obviously

819
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: years is the rampant spread of disinformation and misinformation. Misinformation

820
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 2: being innocently shared information that's inaccurate, disinformation being maliciously shared

821
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: information that is known to be inaccurate, but people are

822
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 2: spreading it anyway for their own corrupt purposes. And we've

823
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 2: seen a proliferation of both of those and we've got

824
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: to check that. And so we have a project called

825
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 2: Law for Truth where we have litigated a number of

826
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 2: defamation cases against some people who have spread injurious and

827
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 2: false information about elections. So recently people may have seen

828
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,720
Speaker 2: this in the news. Are incredibly brave clients, Ruby Freeman

829
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: and Shay Moss to brave election workers in the state

830
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,479
Speaker 2: of Georgia, who were falsely accused of corrupting the twenty

831
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 2: twenty election one one hundred and forty eight million dollar

832
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 2: verdict against Rudy Giuliani on the basis of things that

833
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: he said about them that were determined in a court

834
00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: of law to be a false interfamatory. We recently also

835
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 2: so wan a decision clearing emotion and dismiss in a

836
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 2: similar case on behalf of the Republican recorder in America,

837
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 2: Po County, a guy with the name of Stephen Richard

838
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,439
Speaker 2: who was we alleged was falsely accused by Terry Lake

839
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 2: of corrupting the twenty twenty two gubernatory election that she lost,

840
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: and the court recently ruled that we can proceed with

841
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 2: that case. We have a number of other cases like

842
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: this where we are trying to do what the legal

843
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: system has allowed for hundreds of years, which is people

844
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 2: who were falsely accused and in a way that injures

845
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 2: them materially have recourse through the justice system. And what

846
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: we believe will happen is if enough of these cases

847
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,760
Speaker 2: get litigated and people are held accountable, you will start

848
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 2: to see the deterrent of tort law work to check

849
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: somebout business information. But we also need to worry about

850
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: the structures of our system. So on January sixth, twenty

851
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 2: twenty one, during the storming of the Capitol, what was

852
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 2: Congress doing. It was counting electoral college ballots pursuant to

853
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 2: an incredibly vague and our Kane law from the eighteen

854
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: eighties called the Electoral count Pack. And that law was

855
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 2: incredibly poorly drafted, and it allowed for bad faith actors

856
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 2: to try to put forward disingenuous interpretations to the law

857
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 2: that led to a lot of the conflagration we saw

858
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 2: on January sixth, and so one of the things that

859
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 2: we did pause for.

860
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: A second, so that is that idea that Mike Pence

861
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: could opt in another slight of electors he could refuse

862
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,439
Speaker 1: to certify. That was sort of where we had Mike

863
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: Lee sending, you know, Mark Meadows an email saying, maybe

864
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: we could do this, we could do that, we could

865
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: do other slights. Yes, continue, that's right.

866
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 2: And so one of the things that seemed obvious after

867
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 2: that tragic day was, well, we should really update that

868
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 2: law and make it incredibly clear, for example, that the

869
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 2: vice president doesn't have the power to simply decide who

870
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 2: the next president should be and so working with a

871
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: coalition ing great groups like the Campaign Legal Center at

872
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 2: Issue one and some terrific lawyers from the right and

873
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 2: left like Bob Bauer and Jack Oldsmith and Ginsberg, we

874
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 2: advised Congress on how they could reform that law, and

875
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 2: ultimately a bipartisan working group came together the Electoral Account Reformat,

876
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 2: which was signed into law by President Biden December of

877
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 2: party twenty two. That strengthens that process to hopefully avoid

878
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 2: some of the problems that we solve before. And then

879
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 2: going beyond that, we've now been working with state legislators

880
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: around the country to update their laws to align with

881
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 2: the federal new Electoral Account reformat to have a smoother

882
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 2: process where there are less opportunities for bad faith actors

883
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 2: to try to take us off the rail. So, for example,

884
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 2: in Michigan, they've already done that. We're working on in

885
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 2: some other states as well. So those are some of

886
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 2: the ways in which, you know, sort of in the

887
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 2: in the nitty gritty details of how our electoral system operates,

888
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 2: we can try to strengthen the system in time for

889
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 2: this election, make sure that there's less opportunity for shenanigans

890
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 2: and foul play, and we can talk about some of

891
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 2: the things that we could do on some of the

892
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:42,760
Speaker 2: other fronts as well.

893
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 1: So I want to just talk about this idea of

894
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 1: being able to take out some of that the sort

895
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 1: of more vague language that Trump and his people tried

896
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 1: to use in twenty twenty. Do you think And again,

897
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 1: I know this is probably not going to happened, but

898
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,399
Speaker 1: I mean, where are you on the fourteenth Amendment and

899
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: Trump being pushed off the ballot?

900
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 2: You know, I've really come around on this one. I

901
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 2: started off concerns, but after January sixth, we did an

902
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 2: analysis of the Section three of the fourteenth Amendment, and

903
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 2: our conclusion internally was that as a purely legal matter,

904
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 2: if you were sort of just an academic interpreting the law,

905
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 2: that it's even clear to us that it applied to

906
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 2: Donald Trump, that by any definition, Donald Trump engaged in insurrection,

907
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 2: and that the purpose of a fourteenth Commendment after the

908
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 2: Civil War was to disqualify anybody who had taken it

909
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 2: out and done that in order to preserve our republic

910
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 2: from threats like the Confederacy rising again, and that he

911
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 2: should be disqualified. But our concern was that, you know,

912
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 2: and this has been obviously talked about a lot recently,

913
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 2: that in other countries, that tool of disqualifying opponents is

914
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: one that is used in undemocratic places, and we were

915
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 2: worried about what it would look like if that tool

916
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,879
Speaker 2: got if that sword got on chief here. But I've

917
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 2: come around to the view that I absolutely think now

918
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court should uphold the Colorado decision and disqualify

919
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 2: Donald Trump. And let me say why, for a couple

920
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 2: of reasons. So what the concern that we'll wait a minute,

921
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 2: this is a Pandora's box, and if that's done to Trump,

922
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: won't Texas simply disqualified? Joe Biden, Well, the truth is

923
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 2: that every law that we have on our book can

924
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,439
Speaker 2: be misused by bad faith actors in circumstances for which

925
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 2: it was not intended. But that does not lead us

926
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 2: as a nation to simply decline to apply the law

927
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 2: as it exists in situations for which it was designed.

928
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 2: If we were to do that, then not only would

929
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: we never enforce laws in appropriate circumstances because of fears

930
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 2: that they could be misused in others, but we would

931
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 2: give the worst actors of veto over ever being able

932
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 2: to be held accountable merely by threatening that if they're

933
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 2: held accountable, their allies are going to do it to

934
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,280
Speaker 2: someone else. If you were to give bad faith actors

935
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,240
Speaker 2: that veto, you would essentially put people like Donald Trump

936
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 2: and every other criminal in a country above the law,

937
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 2: and that cannot be the way that the system should operate.

938
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 2: The second reason I think it's really important the Supreme

939
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 2: Court applied the text of the Constitution as it is

940
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 2: written is because there is this fantasy out there that somehow,

941
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 2: if the Supreme Court were to disqualify Donald Trump, he

942
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 2: and his supporters would go ballistic and cause all sorts

943
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 2: of chaos. But here's the thing, we know they're going

944
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 2: to do that anyway if he loses at the ballot box.

945
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 2: They did that in twenty twenty. So this fantastical notion

946
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 2: that if we withhold ourselves from applying the law, if

947
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court somehow we're to just look the other

948
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,720
Speaker 2: way at the text of the Constitution, then our crisis

949
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 2: would be resolved in some more peaceful, plesident way through

950
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 2: some other mechanism is a fantasy that is not going

951
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: to happen. The truth is that Trump has launched an

952
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 2: anti democratic movement of this country that is going to

953
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 2: wreak havoc on this country. No matter what, they are

954
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 2: going to rek havoc on his country. If he has

955
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 2: returned to power governs as an autocrat. They're going to

956
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 2: rerekavoc in many ways if he is defeated at the

957
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 2: ballot box. And yes, they are likely to wreak havoc

958
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 2: if the Supreme Court disqualifies him. And given that they're

959
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 2: going to wrekavoc one way or the other, there's no

960
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 2: way out. Only way is through, and we should apply

961
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 2: the Constitution as written. That's what the Supreme Court is for.

962
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 2: That's what the law says. The Supreme Court should do it.

963
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 2: And if there is to be essentially a prudential decision

964
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 2: to say, you know, even if the law says that

965
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 2: he should be disqualified, he should run anyway, Well, you

966
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 2: know what, the fourteenth Amendment says, that decision is in

967
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 2: Congress's hands, not the courts. Because the other provision of

968
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 2: Section three of the fourteen Amendment is that Congress can

969
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 2: remove the disqualification by a two thirds vote of both houses,

970
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 2: and that meant that the framers of the Constitution understood

971
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,839
Speaker 2: that there might be times when we might want to say,

972
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 2: even if this person did engage in this direction, we

973
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 2: should lap the voters decide, and the Framers very clearly

974
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 2: delegated that power to Congress, not the court. And so

975
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 2: if the court feels that it just would be better

976
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 2: for the nation if Trump were allowed to run, then

977
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 2: that's Congress's job, not the court.

978
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: Right exactly in this larger anti democratic movement. So when

979
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: you look at the exit polls from last night, a

980
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: very large percentage of Trump supporters and again you know

981
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: this is a percentage of a percentage, but very large

982
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: percentage of Trump supporters believe that Joe Biden did not

983
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 1: win the twenty twenty election. And if you read in

984
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 1: Politico today, there was a really good article about these

985
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 1: poll workers who just cannot explain how things are on

986
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 1: Earth one to these people in Trump world. So again,

987
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,959
Speaker 1: this is something I spent almost all my time thinking

988
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: about it because I'm such a nerd. But what do

989
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: you do here? How do you deprogram these people?

990
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 2: Well, they didn't come up with those ideas on their own.

991
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 2: They were given those ideas first and foremost by Donald Trump,

992
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,919
Speaker 2: who has been humping this toxicity into our body politic. Now,

993
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 2: he has had all sorts of help in doing that

994
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: from allies within his party, from a conservative media ecosystem

995
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 2: that is doing it, But he is the originator of

996
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 2: that big lie, and frankly, I think if he were

997
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 2: no longer pumping that lie into people's mind, the rest

998
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 2: of the ecosystem would not be nearly as effective or

999
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 2: even have the incentive to do so to the degree

1000
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 2: that he does. And so I don't think you get

1001
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:30,359
Speaker 2: out of this death spiral of deep distrust in our

1002
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 2: system and in elections while the primary agent that is

1003
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 2: infecting our system with that virus is out there continuing

1004
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 2: to spread it. And that's another reason why the Supreme Court,

1005
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 2: I think, would be wise to apply the law as

1006
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 2: written and uphold the color Art decision against Soland Trump,

1007
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 2: because so long as he is out there in some

1008
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 2: capacity as an active candidate and potentially president of our system,

1009
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 2: he is eroding the very fabric of our democracy. And

1010
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,760
Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting that the Supreme Court should a legal

1011
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 2: interpretation to remove him him from being tending, not at all.

1012
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 2: I'm suggesting that, given that the law clearly does apply

1013
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 2: to him, they shouldn't bend over backwards to not apply

1014
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 2: the law as written to him, precisely because he is

1015
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 2: the person that the Constitution was written to deal with,

1016
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 2: someone who is fundamentally not committed to our system of government.

1017
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 2: And only once he is he no longer has a

1018
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 2: stranglehold over the Republican Party. Can you hope to rebuild

1019
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 2: the underlying fabric of our society? Bring people back together again,

1020
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 2: have people rooted in a sense of shared reality, have

1021
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 2: people committed to a common project. So long as he

1022
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 2: is out there unleashing his political virus on the scene,

1023
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:42,799
Speaker 2: it is going to be very, very hard to cure

1024
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 2: the body politics. Thank you, Ian, thanks for having me.

1025
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 2: I am optimistic notwithstanding all of this sort of doomed

1026
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:54,280
Speaker 2: speaking that at root, this country is a pro democratic country.

1027
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 2: This country has, in multiple elections over the last several years,

1028
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 2: made pro democracy choices. I think it will again, and

1029
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 2: it thanks to people having conversation like this.

1030
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: One moment full Jesse Cannon.

1031
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 6: My junk fast. Who would have guessed that Trump couldn't

1032
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 6: keep his mouth shut about Egene Carol, I will tell

1033
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 6: you this, I have definitely guessed it. Yes, if we

1034
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 6: weel on the betting market. This would be the safest

1035
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 6: bet of the entire world.

1036
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. I don't know how many gag orders he has,

1037
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 1: he's gagged, he's ordered, he's ordered, he's gagged, and how

1038
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: many trials, and yet he still can't keep it. So

1039
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 1: here he is. He calls the case attempted extortion based

1040
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: on fabricated lies and political shenanigans. Jesus Christ. Anyway, let

1041
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 1: me point out how much he is just digging himself

1042
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 1: into yet another hole. And while his supporters are on

1043
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: Earth two, the rest of us are on Earth one,

1044
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 1: and on Earth one, the guy who got charged with defamation,

1045
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,760
Speaker 1: we'll get charged with more defamation. And for that, Donald Trump,

1046
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 1: killer of democracy, winner of the Iowa Caucus, defendant against

1047
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:14,720
Speaker 1: ninety one criminal charges, is our moment of fuckory. That's

1048
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 1: it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday,

1049
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 1: Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds in politics

1050
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 1: makes sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what

1051
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: you've heard, please send it to a friend and keep

1052
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.